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DBMA Martial Arts Forum => Martial Arts Topics => Topic started by: Howling Dog on May 07, 2008, 02:05:31 PM

Title: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 07, 2008, 02:05:31 PM
Woof, A couple of weeks to go before this match up, I thought I would start this thread for fun, and some serious conversation.
Like I stated in a previius thread, Fighters with a core background in WRESTLING have done quite well in the ufc.
Some would dispute that and insist that the reason why Wrestlers have done so well is because the also trained bjj. Of course I disagree :-D

However I think the fight between Sherk and Penn will be a good example of Wrestler vs. Jits guy.

Make no mistake I love Bjj Penn.....hes one of my favorite fighters, and without a doubt very very talented.
However Sean sherk is a beast, and a tremendous ground and pounder.......he will just flat out wear your ass out. Where he lacks in talent as a fighter he makes up for with conditioning and drive.

In my opinon I give the skills aspect to Penn, but if Sherk can take it into the later rounds the advantage switches to him.......
Wrestler vs. BJJ guy.......Lets talk smack :lol: Anyone want to flat out pick BJ PENN?
                                                                       TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Maxx on May 07, 2008, 02:49:56 PM
Sean Sherk is a awesome fighter but BJ Penn is off the hook as well. I am gonna go with Tank Abbot on this one LOL!   :mrgreen:

Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guide Dog on May 07, 2008, 03:24:58 PM
I am a little biased towards Sherk, only because his coach, Greg Nelson, is one of the nicest, most inspirational, most gifted martial artists I have ever met.  Aside from that, my only prediction is a good fight between both men.  I have no interest in getting involved in a BJJ vs. wrestling debate.  Both have their merits.  :-)
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 07, 2008, 04:14:35 PM
Guide dog, I can appreciate you not wanting to debate Bjj vs. Wrestling. However I think much can be learned and realized withA healthy, hearty discussion.
I will sometimes play devils advocate just to provoke discussion. I'am not looking for argument by any means.
But this is a classic match up.....
I'am really looking forward to this fight!
                                                                       TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 07, 2008, 05:10:27 PM
BJ's separatist BS for Hawaii irks me  :x :x :x
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 07, 2008, 07:43:22 PM
Speaking of Greg I had my fighters work some of his combos tonight:

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=9P5MbvNIq88[/youtube]
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: peregrine on May 07, 2008, 09:18:09 PM
I'm voting for BJ. of course :evil:

Sherk is a machine(one of the highest compliments in my book), but BJ imho is a 'phenom.'  & Like Roy Jones Jr. lives for fighting. If he brings the gas he will win.
I got to meet Greg Nelson shortly before the last Gathering in a short seminar. Really great guy and i love his methods/clinch.






Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 12, 2008, 01:18:52 PM
I can almost feel the hook sinking into my lip. :)

I had a great time training with Greg Nelson at a Pedro Sauer BJJ camp a few years ago.  Greg is a BJJ black belt under Pedro, and showed us a lot of cool tricks.  One thing I found interesting was that during one conversation, Greg really stressed how important training with the gi was for MMA fighters.  He had just gotten back from Japan after cornering Sean for a Pride event (one of the Bushidos, I think).  He said he spent a long time talking with the head coach for Chute Boxe, Rudimar Fedrigo; Rudimar made a point to say how all his guys train with the gi and how important he thinks it is for their technical development.  I'm not sure how much time Sean puts in with the gi these days, but he holds a brown belt, for whatever that is worth.

I'm with peregrine, if BJ comes in shape and a little pissed off, he will win.  But both guys are great, well-rounded fighters and it is going to be fun to watch no matter what.  I think the last pure Wrestling vs. BJJ fight we'll ever see was probably Severn vs. Gracie.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 12, 2008, 02:01:24 PM
Well.....Its probably just me....but I would be intrested in hearing why GI training was so important in mma....esp since pretty much all mma has gone GI-less.
Speaking of Chute box......has anyone ever seen Vanderila(sp) Silva submit someone?

I'am wondering if the Sherk -Penn fight will end up like the Hughes- Gracie fight........

I still haven't figured out how MH totally dominated the Great Joyce Gracie beat him at his own game...took his back and punched his eyes out.
Surley no one would argue that MH Bjj skills are any where near Royces....but yet..... How did this happen?

Jeff the thing that gets me about you.....is how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they trained in BJJ. I think thats BS......If Sherk double legs Penn and sits on his chest and punches his eyes closed BJJ will have nothing to do with it.....and by the way.....I don't think Sherk can Submit Penn.

My opinion on the sherk -Penn fight is that, Bj Penn is a more skilled fighter, Sherk is a monster mauler and a cardio machine that I attribute to his wrestling background......
The same with all the wrestlers that I named in the previous thread......its the past training in wrestling thats carried them and taught them what being in shape is really like.
Crafty elluded to this in a previous post(and got jumped for telling the truth).......Unless you've been there I don't think you can fully understand it.
                                                                     Dog SB
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 12, 2008, 02:13:11 PM
I know we are talking about MMA but thought this comment would be appropriate on this forum.  Personally, my Gi training really helped me with the April gathering.  Being able to grab onto someones jeans, shirt, shoes, gloves, etc. gave me some great points of control.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 12, 2008, 02:25:06 PM
Quote
Well.....Its probably just me....but I would be intrested in hearing why GI training was so important in mma....esp since pretty much all mma has gone GI-less.

The usual explanation is that is makes both positonal and submission escapes much more difficult, so your escapes are forced to become more technical.  Also, you can be off-balanced and swept much easier with the gi, so your base and balance are forced to improve.  But you'd have to ask Greg and Rudimar for more specifics, I'm just repeating what I heard.  :-P

Quote
has anyone ever seen Vanderila(sp) Silva submit someone?

Yes, he's ended a number of fights with RNC's in Pride.  His famous stablemates, Shogun and Ninja Rua have also won fights via submission.  You can probably find examples on Youtube or Dailymotion.

Quote
I still haven't figured out how MH totally dominated the Great Joyce Gracie beat him at his own game...took his back and punched his eyes out.
Surley no one would argue that MH Bjj skills are any where near Royces....but yet..... How did this happen?

No one in their right mind would think that a matchup between Matt Hughes in his prime and an over the hill Royce Gracie is either a fair fight or a indicator of the effectiveness of either of their styles.  Royce had no business being in the ring with Matt, and that was painfully obvious from the opening bell.  Royce was outclassed and overpowered in every range.

Quote
"Jeff the thing that gets me about you.....is how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they trained in BJJ."

I hate to get under your skin, but you are right in that I don't think these wrestlers would have the same kind of success if they did not train BJJ or a similar high level submission style.  Is that really up for debate?  In 2008?  If you took them straight from college or even Olympic wrestling, they could do very well up to a certain point, then they would start getting submitted.  (See Lindland vs. Bustamante, Couture vs. Inoue, Jackson vs. Shamrock, etc.)  It's not my opinion, it's what we've seen happen over the last 10 years.  Then these very talented wrestlers actually put serious time training in these other arts, then they truly become a force at the highest levels.

What I don't get is why you seem out to make a point as to the superiority of "your" style, wrestling.  It is a fantastic style, with great training methods, which attracts and builds very tough, conditioned, skilled athletes.  No one is disputing this.  You are kind of arguing with yourself on this one.

It's cool, dude - you like "monster maulers", I like "skilled fighters".  Our backgrounds and our personalities generally dictate the styles we admire and emulate.  We can argue which is better, but I'd rather just sit back and enjoy.  We really can all just get along.

WAR BJ! :)
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 12, 2008, 02:47:25 PM
Quote
Jeff the thing that gets me about you.....is how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they trained in BJJ. I think thats BS......If Sherk double legs Penn and sits on his chest and punches his eyes closed BJJ will have nothing to do with it.....and by the way.....I don't think Sherk can Submit Penn.

Tom, the thing that gets me about you... is how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they have trained in wrestling. I think thats BS. It is a combination of many things that makes someone a champ. Every example of a wrestler you gave in the other thread was countered by an example of the opposite. Hendo's wrestling and ground+pound did absolutely jack for him against Anderson Silva. What about Lesner? Didn't help him to much did it?

This is a stupid argument. I used to look for "the best" martial art when I was 16. Now I know better. No one will ever counter another 100% of the time no matter how much of a fanboy you are of that art.

I guess what I am saying is that wrestling is NOT the key any more than striking is the key... any more than BJJ is the key. Not so long ago we spent some time training wrestling solutions in Jeffs class. I gave them a shot, and as of yet none have worked for me. Other wrestling moves have worked, and continue to work for me. It is about the person. "Find what is useful, and leave the rest behind" and all that. If you like wrestling then do it. Don't train BJJ. No one is forcing you to do it. This wrestling vs BJJ argument is something I would have had when I was 16. Like Jeff said, you are arguing with yourself. No one here is talking trash on wrestling. Everyone admits how useful it is, and that it produces great fighters. So all of us having admitted that we can now stop having this discussion. :P

Jon
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 12, 2008, 02:53:24 PM
Quote
Yes, he's ended a number of fights with RNC's in Pride

Actually Wand did submit 1 guy with a rnc....I just looked up his record.

So you attributing the Matt Hughes win over Royce, to age? MH was 33 and Royce was 39
You say he beat him at every range.......The onley range I remember was Royce on his back.
The thing is where were all those magical skills? Royce put up absoultly no fight whatsoever...probalby one of Matt Hughes easiest fights.

Quote
I hate to get under your skin, but you are right in that I don't think these wrestlers would have the same kind of success if they did not train BJJ or a similar high level submission style.  Is that really up for debate?  In 2008?


I think the thing that makes the argument valid is when a highley tauted black belt in BJJ gets beat by a lesser ranked(bjj belt).....wrestler.

How does this happen skills wise?

You take all these weslers and point out they have brown , blue, purple belts...ect and yet they end up beating black belts on the ground.
To me that just dose'nt equate.
A good example is Bj Penn.......He's got great BJJ skills and as far as that goes......I won't even argue Sherk to be in his class as far as submissons go.........So does that mean Penn beats Sherk on the ground?

By rights it should.....yes? At least to your way of thinking? yep even in 2008.....  I'am by no means saying that Wrestling is better than Bjj.
My argument all along has been.......I would rather take a wrestler(core) and teach him a few submissions and go wqith that.
Than take a BJJ Black belt or whatever with no wrestling background......
                                                             Dog TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 12, 2008, 02:58:51 PM
..So does that mean Penn beats Sherk on the ground?

By rights it should.....yes? At least to your way of thinking?

Where in the hell did anyone make that claim? No one said anything of the sort.

You are attacking a strawman.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 12, 2008, 03:01:51 PM
Jon, I will stop having this discussion when you can tell me how a blue blet, beats a highley touted Blackbelt, in a ground game....in mma?
Example being Matt Serra losing to  Georges st. Pierre........on the ground.
Many more, look at my list on the ufc 83 thread.

Quote
Where in the hell did anyone make that claim? No one said anything of the sort.


Well then Jon, is spending all those years Learning all that BJJ really worth the time and investment?

Or are BJJ black belts over rated?
                        
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 12, 2008, 03:15:01 PM
You need to step back and take a look at the entire picture with every fight.  "Situational Change Variables" come into play with everything.  I could go on to using the example of the 1st Matt S. vs. GSP as BJJ beating GSP but that simply isn't the case.  GSP admits he didn't train the way he should have and underestimated Serra.  My point being that if a fighter is disrupted from any number of reasons it can throw off their game, wrestler or BJJ'er.  Additionally, no fighter is ever the same in every fight.  More fighters than not that have continued to fight past their prime become "has beens."  Royce, Ken S., and now what I am seeing with a few Pride/UFC fighters who have fought past their prime are starting on their way down.  Whether it's because the newer fighters are better or because the "has been" fighter is out of shape, not training right, etc.  Step back and look past the styles.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 12, 2008, 03:26:06 PM
Jon, I will stop having this discussion when you can tell me how a blue blet, beats a highley touted Blackbelt, in a ground game....in mma?
Example being Matt Serra losing to  Georges st. Pierre........on the ground.
Many more, look at my list on the ufc 83 thread.

Quote
Where in the hell did anyone make that claim? No one said anything of the sort.


Well then Jon, is spending all those years Learning all that BJJ really worth the time and investment?

Or are BJJ black belts over rated?
                        

You will never stop having this argument because you will not look beyond Wrestling vs BJJ. This is what the rest of us are saying. Simple style vs style matchups are a thing of the past. Everyone trains everything now, because that is what the sport demands. How did a BJJ guy beat Hendo? How did a BJJ guy beat Lesner? You are acting like this is a one way street, and all we see are wrestlers beating bjj guys... that is simply not true, and you know it! The truth is that there are many other factors besides what type of grappling they are better trained in.

Again, read what the rest of us are saying. We are not in any way down playing the importance of wrestling. We are simply saying that it is not the end all be all, and that there are many other factors involved.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 12, 2008, 03:34:01 PM
I understand what your saying. You would be right to not use Matt Serra's win over GSP as an example of Bjj wining.
However I have never used my examples out of context like your implying.

I just need to know why, a Balck belt in BJJ Loses to a lesser ranked BJJ belt in the context of a grappling type match.....just as in Matt Hughes and Royce Gracie.
The same goes for GSP and MS fIGHT 2.

If a heavy punch lands and hurts the fighter that makes all the difference in the world.
Again Ive kept my examples in context.......I beleive in playing fairly :lol:

Jon, tell me something about your training..... Like what you train in how long ect......I'am just curious.
Also,I f you could onley train one art what would it be?
                                                                    TG

If you talking about Anderson Silva beating  Hendo........Uh strikes won tht fight. Do you remember the 1st round? Hendo totally dominated that round.....on the ground.

Again Jon, I have always kept my argument in context.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 12, 2008, 04:08:27 PM
"The man is more important than the style."  Bruce Lee
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 12, 2008, 04:08:51 PM
I understand what your saying. You would be right to not use Matt Serra's win over GSP as an example of Bjj wining.
However I have never used my examples out of context like your implying.

I just need to know why, a Balck belt in BJJ Loses to a lesser ranked BJJ belt in the context of a grappling type match.....just as in Matt Hughes and Royce Gracie.
The same goes for GSP and MS fIGHT 2.

If a heavy punch lands and hurts the fighter that makes all the difference in the world.
Again Ive kept my examples in context.......I beleive in playing fairly :lol:

Jon, tell me something about your training..... Like what you train in how long ect......I'am just curious.
Also,I f you could onley train one art what would it be?
                                                                    TG

If you talking about Anderson Silva beating  Hendo........Uh strikes won tht fight. Do you remember the 1st round? Hendo totally dominated that round.....on the ground.

Again Jon, I have always kept my argument in context.

How did strikes win that fight? Hendo was submitted with a RNC. I would say that Hendo's strikes were pretty weak in general. Silva controlled him to much.

Now, as far as I know striking has nothing to do with either BJJ, or Wrestling. So you can't bring strikes into the fray unless you are willing to admit that there are other factors than BJJ vs Wrestling... which is exactly my point. There are other factors.

So to answer your questions:

1. A lesser belt can win because he has more training in a more diverse set of grappling arts (including wrestling, no one is debating this.) You can throw strikes in to the mix. You can consider age, who trained harder, any sort of adversity going on in a fighters personal life. There are soooooo many factors involved that boiling any fight down to simply wrestling vs bjj is short sighted in the extreme. Wrestling and BJJ have entirely different goals anyway. I am not even sure it is possible to compare them. As far as the gracies being beaten... its nothing new. There were people long before the american wrestlers to blaze that trail.

2. I have 2 years of kali (the first was many years ago so I hesitate to count it) one under Sifu Bill Gebhardt, and more recently under Dog Ryan Gruhn. I also now have a year in BJJ under Jeff Rockwell. I spent 2.5 years training Aikido. I would be hard pressed to choose one Art. They all have much to offer. I try and learn a little something from anyone that will teach me ;)

So who will win? I don't know. I like them both so have a hard time picking one to root for. I really liked both Hendo and Silva but one of them had to lose. If BJ comes out looking as good as he did in his last fight I think he will take it.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 12, 2008, 04:32:08 PM
Hey, before everyone gets too serious. I'am just having fun here.
Strikes won the Silva vs. Hendo fight in that Hendo was beaten to the ground by strikes unable to recover enough and yes submitted by RNC.

Quote
"The man is more important than the style."  Bruce Lee

Does the style make the man? :-D
Not everyone can fight in a Dog Brothers gathering after all. Nor can everyone wrestle :lol:

Quote
I try and learn a little something from anyone that will teach me 


You said well.........Thats why I like the DBMA......Its very well rounded, with a little of everything.
Whiich has been one of my points all along.
I don't think it neccassary to be a BJJ black belt to be a well rounded fighter......so why spend all the time and effort...... after all as I've said before esp in the conteext of mma, you onley see 3-4 baisc submissions.
Yet watching Hendo hold down Anderson Silva is telling.....and yes Hendo did get his ass kicked.
                                                             Dog SB


Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 12, 2008, 05:19:57 PM
Crafty is wise.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 12, 2008, 06:16:15 PM
Crafty is wise.

I'll second that  :-D

Along the same lines , a fighter was onced asked the question we are debating here:  "Who wins?  The BJJ guy or the Wrestler?"

He replied with . . . "The wrestler/BJJ'er who knows BJJ/Wrestling."  :-D

For that very reason we can't accuratly debate this nowadays without having a true wrestler vs. true BJJ'er fight.  We can't find them anymore because both wrestlers and BJJ'ers see value in their respective art.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=gANq4Kba1pM[/youtube]
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 12, 2008, 06:27:11 PM
Gruhn,
Quote
For that very reason we can't accuratly debate this nowadays without having a true wrestler vs. true BJJ'er fight.  We can't find them anymore because both wrestlers and BJJ'ers see value in their respective art.

So how much pure wrestling do you have?

I would venture, that possibly more wrestlers are willing to learn BJJ than BJJ guys are willing to learn wrestling. Why?
Imho its the "Gracie superiorty complex" they think their grappling skills suffice against wrestlers.
This I would disagree with. Some of this comes from the physicality of the wrestler.
I would however agree from a pureists context that BJJ ugys would have advantage in submissions.
Although there are wrestling holds that can inflict a lot of pain(not necassarily subbmission).

There again from an argumentitve stand point....the wrestler has advantage....IE: Gracie vs. Hughes


Back to the thread......I would not be suprised to see BJ Penn attempt to fight Sean Sherk on his feet.
I'am not convinced Bj Penn can beat Sherk on the ground.
Stand up......I think Penn wins this game.
                                                                 TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 12, 2008, 07:55:17 PM
Tangent re the Matt Hughes vs. Royce Gracie fight:

I happened to run into Royce and his dad Helio two days before the fight while picking up one of their BBs in from out of town for training.  I was flattered that Royce remembered me from the time that Rigan Machado had introduced us.  I told him he would take guard, get past MH's elbow on a punch, slither to his back, and choke him out.  His dad and he laughed (I was in awe at how relaxed he was two days before a major fight.) and he said to me "From your lips to God's ear."

Actually I was quite concerned for Royce based on what I knew of his training preparation via youtube clips and local gossip.  Apparently he had been training kickboxing with one of his students who was a hopkido instructor and for his wrestling preparation the youtube clip showed him dealing with obviously non-wrestling students trying to shoot double legs on him.

IMHO the essence of the fight was for him to establish guard position.  For him kickboxing was utterly irrelevant to this mission.  IMHO he needed to experience the way a good wrestling based MMA fighter can shoot a double leg and pass the guard, but apparently his thinking was set in his hey day in the early UFC days before the advent of MMA seasoned wrestlers and before the advent of Greco Roman based clinch.  IMHO he should have been up at Rico Chiapparelli's RAW/R-1 Gym in El Segundo experiencing the wrestling based fighters there-- men like Rico, Vlady Matyushenko, and Frank Trigg.

If you watch the fight again, you will see MH take him down from clinch while he (RG) is trying to throw a punch.  This is how he missed establishing guard and therefore had no chance in the fight. 

In other words IMHO his downfall was underestimating what good wrestling/Greco-Roman based grappling can contribute to a MMA fight.

RG changed the martial art world and launched a revolution.  His fights in the early UFC, showed a much smaller, weaker man who fearlessly beat three men every time he stepped into the cage in fights that were truly paradigmatic.  But IMHO on the night he fought MH he underestimated how much things had changed.  He was older, and more dinged up from injuries than he was in his prime and there is no shame in losing to a great fighter like MH was at that time.

TAC!
CD
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 12, 2008, 08:56:23 PM
^From Crafty's lips to God's ear, amen.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 07:49:59 AM
Quote
^From Crafty's lips to God's ear, amen.

So then Jeff you agree with Crafty's post?

Quote
IMHO he should have been up at Rico Chiapparelli's RAW/R-1 Gym in El Segundo experiencing the wrestling based fighters there-- men like Rico, Vlady Matyushenko, and Frank Trigg.

If I'am not mistaken Royce lives in Hermosa beach, just 5 minutes from the R-1 gym


Quote
But IMHO on the night he fought MH he underestimated how much things had changed. 


If I understand Crafty correctly, he is saying that in the" old" UFC, Royce was able to grab a arm or a neck from an unsuspecting opponent, because BJJ  was new to most.....but now fighters understand BJJ and are more wary of what to look for....because they've seen it.
                                                 
                                                                 TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 13, 2008, 07:59:29 AM
Quote
but now fighters understand BJJ and are more wary of what to look for....because they've seen it.

BIG TIME!  and they've trained it . . . extensively.  To learn how defend grasshoppa, you must first learn how to attack!  :-D
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 08:16:45 AM
Gruhn, So then you also agree with Crafty, that Royce Gracie should have trained "extensivly" with the wrestlers at R-1 GYM before fighting Matt Hughes?  "BIG TIME" :|
                                                                       TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 13, 2008, 08:27:43 AM
100% agree.  BIG TIME!  :-D
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guide Dog on May 13, 2008, 08:29:34 AM
"Dog" Tom,

I almost hate to write this, but the little smart a$$ who lives in my brain and writes all of my one liners won't let it go:

At the August Gathering, will you be prowling the fighters' area, calling out all of the BJJ practitioners by telling them that they have a "Gracie superiority complex", and that they have wasted thousands of dollars learning BJJ when only a few submissions are necessary, and that most of them would not make the local high school wrestling team?

Because that would be hardcore.  You'd be the Clubber Lang of the summer Gathering.   :evil:
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 08:36:05 AM
Woof Guide Dog, Not at all....do I'am not that crazy.......The gathering is the Ultimate mma.
I do have respect for BJJ..... I just no longer think its magic as it was when Royce introduced it to the UFC....so many years ago........
I do my best with my limited availiblty in instruction to pick up what I can.....we also incorperate it in our wrestling as best we can........I'am sure I'am very tech. flawed....but I have been able to arm bar a few people and choke out a few others. :lol:
But no I'am not going to seek out the BJJ Guys at the gathering.......Unless their  stick skills suck. :wink:
                                                         Dog TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 13, 2008, 08:43:03 AM
Quote
So then Jeff you agree with Crafty's post?

Absolutely.  Royce should have followed Matt Hughes example by cross-training...and a few months cross training is not going to be enough to deal with someone who has been doing it for years and years.  Matt spent most of his fighting career training to blend striking, wrestling, and jiu-jitsu with BJJ Black Belt Pat Miletich (under Oswaldo Alves and Sergio Montiero, I think).  Royce focused almost exclusively on jiu-jitsu his whole life.  While mastery of one style will get you pretty far, it is not enough against a seasoned, cross-trained veteran athlete like Hughes.

http://onthemat.com/wiki/index.php/List_of_BJJ_Black_Belts (http://onthemat.com/wiki/index.php/List_of_BJJ_Black_Belts)

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I do have respect for BJJ..... I just no longer think its magic as it was when Royce introduced it to the UFC....so many years ago........

Again, no one here is saying that it is magic, you are just adamantly repeating that it isn't.  Which is cool.  You are preaching to a very open-minded choir.  We are just saying it is something pretty worthwhile.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 08:49:02 AM
So Jeff, and Gruhn......It was asked me in the UFC83 thread how much time I spend doing BJJ.....How much time do you guys spend doing pure wrestling?
When was the last time either of you competed in a grecco roman or open freestyle tournament?

Why do you think Royce would not have had the sense in all his years of MMA...to not have cross trained like all the others have?

Also what percentage do you attribute BJJ to the mma puzzle or pie?
                                                                               TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 13, 2008, 08:56:51 AM
I don't think it neccassary to be a BJJ black belt to be a well rounded fighter......so why spend all the time and effort...... after all as I've said before esp in the conteext of mma, you onley see 3-4 baisc submissions.
Yet watching Hendo hold down Anderson Silva is telling.....and yes Hendo did get his ass kicked.
                                                             Dog SB

No one is saying that you need a black belt. Is it worth it to spend the time to get one? Well, lots of great fighters think so... make of that what you will. I would say it probably isn't necessary, but it wouldn't hurt now would it? :P

Royce was getting over the hill, and didn't train hard enough. HE was caught up in his own legend. I agree 100% that there is nothing magical about BJJ. There never was. Kimura beat the Gracies long ago. So did Sakuraba. There may be many others that we just don't hear about. BJJ is great, but I certainly don't think that anyone is saying it is infallible. Neither is wrestling or Judo, or anything else.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 09:03:20 AM
Quote
but it wouldn't hurt now would it? 

So Jon....how long will it take you to get this black belt? Is it worth the time, effort and of course$$$$?

Will spend the same time to get a Judo Black belt, or to train in thai boxing or even Wrestling?
It wouldn't hurt would it? :roll: :|
                                                              TG
The point is time is precious and the window is small, time wise for fighters........to spend all that time to train in BJJ....IS a  waste for a serious MMA Ffighter....or better yet..wannnabe fighter.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 13, 2008, 09:27:40 AM
I never thought it was magic either, until I got my @$$ handed to me by some pretty slick Jiu-Jitsu 'tudes, . . . time and TIME again.  Then Mir knee bared Lesner and I thought I was going to pass out.  Now that was magic!  :-o

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How much time do you guys spend doing pure wrestling?

I had a 4X All American 2008 National Champ working my stand up wrestling just yesterday.  He fixed some important things on my single leg as well.  If I'm correct, Jeff is working with him as I write this. . . Rock won't pick up his phone!

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=crXTg67hmR4[/youtube]
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guide Dog on May 13, 2008, 09:41:51 AM
I think that BJJ could beat wrestling, unless the wrestling guy has Shooto, but the CSW guy has all of the calculations done for him so he might beat a Sambo guy, who could easily beat a Greco guy unless the Greco guy is a Conepts guy and doesn't fight with his strong side forward because that's the way that...

OH, I'VE GONE CROSSEYED... :-P
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 13, 2008, 09:49:00 AM
Okay I'll stop posting youtube clips after this one:

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=GU0XiLOXdP0[/youtube]
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 13, 2008, 10:14:51 AM
Quote
but it wouldn't hurt now would it? 

So Jon....how long will it take you to get this black belt? Is it worth the time, effort and of course$$$$?

Will spend the same time to get a Judo Black belt, or to train in thai boxing or even Wrestling?
It wouldn't hurt would it? :roll: :|
                                                              TG
The point is time is precious and the window is small, time wise for fighters........to spend all that time to train in BJJ....IS a  waste for a serious MMA Ffighter....or better yet..wannnabe fighter.


How many of them already have a background in a MA? How many already have a blackbelt? How many were already wrestling champs? How many spend 8+ hours a day training? You act as if these people don't already have training when they decide to jump into MMA. That is not realistic at all, and again I think you are setting up a strawman to knock down. If there were some magic formula for training MMA then every fighter would have the same style. They would all be college wrestlers that "train a couple submissions" and striking if your ideas were reality. Thats not what we see though is it? IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSON.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 13, 2008, 10:27:57 AM
While I am not planning on entering any wrestling tournaments this summer, there is a PSU Club tournament in the fall, and a Men's open tournament in the winter.  I didn't compete in either last year because of a knee injury, but I might this next year, just for the experience.  I am training with D.1 wrestlers every day - last night I learned "the funk"!  Cool stuff, blends very well with my BJJ.  And the wrestlers are all so fired up to be learning submissions, sweeps from the guard, technical passing...blends very well with their wrestling...the open mindedness goes on and on.

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to spend all that time to train in BJJ....IS a  waste for a serious MMA Ffighter....or better yet..wannnabe fighter.

Wow. I'm sure Pat Miletich thinks his black belt under Alves and Montiero was a waste of time.  You just took your own back on that one, fren.

Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 10:43:46 AM
Jon, My questions are simple and easy to understand. Of course some start young and already have black belts in a particular style.
Thats pretty much my point.
If a person spent all his time devoting to one style to get the coveted black belt.....as in BJJ, that would make him pretty much one dimensional(IMHO) and what about the Judo the thai boxing and all the rest....that the open minded choir says has value in context of mma.

As for the college wrestlers.....most that have made a transition into the MMA world and have done quite well......weve gone done that road already.
I would say when you look at it from the stand point of how many guys can wrestle at a college level vs. the millions that can walk into the local BJJ gym and train BJJ....the numbers would be quite small by comparison.

Not many people I know train 8 hours a day.....myself I work .
How many guys do you know who train 8 hours a day.
I don't know many 5 year old kids that want to be pro mma fighters.... so from a carrer stand point, most do come a little later in life.
Its kind of hard to determine if a little kid can take gettin punched in the face would,nt you say?
When I was kick boxing a k16 year old could fight with parent permission.....that was the youngest.

I asked Gruhn and Jeff some specific questions......I'am still waiting for the answers to.

One in particular pertains as to why Royce Gracie never changed his game to adapt to todays MMA......The other pertains to how much they train in pure wrestling.

Both agreed that Royce should have done this..........I'am just wondring how much the open minded choir practices what they preach
I also asked what percentage they feel BJJ makes up the Whole of the mma pie?
I have reasons for these questions.
                                                              TG


Quote
Wow. I'm sure Pat Miletich thinks his black belt under Alves and Montiero was a waste of time.  You just took your own back on that one, fren.

What do you mean? ....I'am not following.........Pat Miletich in my opinion was a mediocore fighter.....but I confess I have not seen a lot of his fights......now he runs a business.....and I think  A lot of his name fighters have jumped ship.....but anyway please explain how I gave my back.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 13, 2008, 11:28:31 AM
Pure wrestling? I don't train many pinning combinations or par terre work, but I do train a lot of takedowns and takedown defense, from both freestyle and greco ties and setups.  My goals involve BJJ/Sub Wrestling and MMA, so certain aspects of "pure" wrestling don't apply as much.  If I train for those tournaments later this year, I will spend time training more "pure" wrestling, so I don't embarrass myself more than necessary on certain rules and whatnot.

While I am by no means stellar, I do take a certain pride in that a number of good wrestlers have asked me where I wrestled after training with me, whatever that is worth.  I get a lot of weird looks when I tell them I was a volleyball player.  :mrgreen:

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Pat Miletich in my opinion was a mediocore fighter.....

That's a pretty ballsy statement to make, but we'll let that slide.  What do you think of him as a trainer?

If nothing else, I admire your ability lower your head and smash down the walls of reason.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 13, 2008, 11:52:47 AM
Oops, sorry forgot this one:

Quote
I also asked what percentage they feel BJJ makes up the Whole of the mma pie

For each fighter it is different.  For Noguierra, probably 70% of his pie is BJJ.  For Hughes, maybe 40%.  For Mark Coleman, probably 0.000000000000000000000005%.  For every champion one can name with a high percentage of one base art, you can name another with a different base art.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 12:16:11 PM
Jeff, you left out the part where I admitted to not seeing many of his fights.
About, those questions I asked about Royce and not transitioning his game to make him more competitve in todays mma?

Its my opinion, but Royce was/is caught in the same vaccum as most BJJ guys....they think their BJJ can carry them. Ego being the bigger factor.
That coupled with BJJ being the flavor of this time frame and people flocking to it like its the martial art messiah.....I think this too will pass......80's was karate....90's thai boxing... now Bjj.....Next will probably be generic mma.....It may already be...
You claim to have an open mind to wrestling but my guess is you fit into the same category as Royce does.....
I would venture more wrestlers have the open mind your talking about than do the BJJ guys. In fact you talk about how open minded your wrestlers are.......When was the last time you let your D-1 Champ teach a class?  :roll: :wink: :|  My guess is you like to think your teaching him as "your guy" :lol:

Take Josh Koschek for example...a monster on the ground not super known for his subbmissions though I am fairly certain he can throw an arm bar if need be.......but he has really worked his stand up game to make himself a very formidable stand up fighter. open minded? college wrestler turned pro mma fighter with a bright future.

 good example of a hard work ethic thats been instilled in all the premier wrestlers that have made the transition into the mma world.
Like I said before......theres a reason why a lower belted bjj/ wrestler beats a balck belt in BJJ In mma and its not his bjj..........after all should not the BJJ black belt beat the lower ranked belted figther? (Please answer this) We have kind of danced around this question for some time.

As for smashing down the walls of reason.......I don't follow?
I think I have kept all my questions, statements and posts in realistic perspective.........when in actuality its you who fail to budge on your BJJ superiority mentality.......
Quote
My goals involve BJJ/Sub Wrestling and MMA, so certain aspects of "pure" wrestling don't apply as much.


Quote
For every champion one can name with a high percentage of one base art, you can name another with a different base art.

Yet you have insisted that BJJ Is essantial to being successful in mma.....
.
                                                 TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 13, 2008, 12:43:04 PM
Quote
Take Josh Koschek for example...a monster on the ground not super known for his subbmissions though I am fairly certain he can throw an arm bar if need be.......but he has really worked his stand up game to make himself a very formidable stand up fighter. open minded? college wrestler turned pro mma fighter with a bright future.

Also a purple belt in BJJ under Dave Camarillo at this point.  I know you hate when I do that, but you just keep setting it up for me.  :wink:

Quote
Like I said before......theres a reason why a lower belted bjj/ wrestler beats a balck belt in BJJ In mma and its not his bjj..........after all should not the BJJ black belt beat the lower ranked belted figther? (Please answer this) We have kind of danced around this question for some time.

The short answer is that the winner of each particular fight had attributes that outweighed his opponent's attributes and experience on that particular night.  For every example you give of a wrestling-based fighter defeating a BJJ-based fighter, I can give you a polar opposite example.  Seriously, if you want to go through that exercise we can, it's no problem.

Quote
You claim to have an open mind to wrestling but my guess is you fit into the same category as Royce does.....

Really?  Even though everything I've said to you would lead a reasonable person to the opposite conclusion? I hope you never sit on a jury.

Quote
I would venture more wrestlers have the open mind your talking about than do the BJJ guys.

Well, I suggest you go actually start training BJJ instead of just reading about it or eyeballing some videos, so you'll have some idea of what the hell you're talking about when you make sweeping generalizations about what all BJJ guys do, how they think, their techniques, their ego, etc.  You are living in the 90's...with a few of the Gracie's, ironically.

Quote
In fact you talk about how open minded your wrestlers are.......When was the last time you let your D-1 Champ teach a class?      My guess is you like to think your teaching him as "your guy"


He's "my guy" in that he sought me out to teach him and considers me to be his "BJJ coach".  He also has a "striking coach" and even a "wrestling coach" and a "strength and conditioning coach".  Together, we make up a " coaching team".  He thinks we all have something to offer, and can make him a better fighter.  Isn't that cool?

"My" D-1 champ taught takedowns at my class last year prior to his senior season; now that he's back, I'll have him do it again very soon.  Right now, he's getting ready to fight, so he's naturally focusing more on training than teaching.  I've also had several guest Judo instructors teach class for me this past year.  Anyone who comes into my gym who has something to offer is given the opportunity to share it with the rest.  You seriously have no idea what nonsense you're spouting at this point.

Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 13, 2008, 01:12:46 PM
(http://jaguar.it.miami.edu/~chris/formal_methods_in_the_movies/CoolHandLuke.jpg)

"What we've got here is...a failure to communicate.  Some men...you just can't reach."  - The Captain

(http://www.gocollegiate.com/editor/UserFiles/cool%20hand%20luke.jpg)

"Sometimes Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Wrestling together...can be a real cool hand." - Luke

(http://lightsleepers.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/bj.jpg)

"Sean Sherk, you're dead!  I'm going to kill you just to spite Tom Guthrie!" - B.J. Penn
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 01:17:54 PM
Actually jeff, Ia'm basing my thougths on the things you say, correct. I actually put up the quotes to back up why I think the way I do about you.
If the oppertunity to train bjj with a good instructor for a reasonable price came along.....I would consider it.

It is cool that he sought you out to coach him, though I would venture his core is already established.....In fact I would venture he could teach you a few things......wouldn't that be cool?

Quote
You seriously have no idea what nonsense you're spouting at this point.


I actually consider myself a very rational person.....I sense its just a little frustration on your part.
You've been trying to pigeon hole me all along........my whole argument is that you can take a quality (college wrestler) teach him a few submissions and he would suffice on the ground at a high level.......again I think this has been established.

I have a college wrestler that I train dog brothers with.
So in the context of a pure ground game(No striking).........how would you say you match up, with a college wrestler equal weight....being that your a brown belt BJJ.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 13, 2008, 01:47:25 PM
Quote
You seriously have no idea what nonsense you're spouting at this point.

This is simply in reference to you wildly guessing about how I train or what goes on at my gym, about which you clearly have no idea.

Quote
So in the context of a pure ground game(No striking).........how would you say you match up, with a college wrestler equal weight....being that your a brown belt BJJ.

A college wrestler, equal weight, with no submission or BJJ training would probably take me down, but have a hard time passing my guard with no strikes.  I'd like to think I'd eventually catch him in something, but you never know.  He might well beat me on points.  That happened in a no gi tournament last year, I went against a tough wrestler from VA Tech who had been training with a Lloyd Irvin school.  He got two takedowns, and narrowly escaped three tight submission holds...by dragging us into the crowd and having the ref stand us up each time. (That was actually the ref's fault, he should have been disqualified or docked points according to the rules).  Anyway, I lost that match 4-0.  But it was a great learning experience, and I hope to meet up with that guy again someday, just to see if a change of strategy will change the outcome.

Quote
In fact I would venture he could teach you a few things......wouldn't that be cool?

*sigh* He does, on a daily basis, which I've said before...I seriously feel like I'm talking to a wall.

You are correct, I am frustrated at this point.  But mostly for allowing myself to get sucked into this thread.  I felt the hook, I should have just swam away.

Actually, I changed my mind.  I'm no longer frustrated.  You win, Tom.  Wrestling rules, BJJ sucks and no one should ever train it.  Hopefully it will die out and never challenge the one true art that is wrestling again.  Enjoy your excellent thread as the crickets chirp.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 01:58:19 PM
Now Now Jeff, take it easy, I'am in agreement with that BJJ has its merits. Your right, in that this discussion has hit the wall.
My real intention was to look at a very intresting fight BJ Penn and Sean Sherk with their attributes and how it may pan out.......

However.....In the spirit of Dog Brothers martial arts and the attitude of lets try it and see what happens.
Speaking on behalf of someone who know not that I'am speaking for them at this point.....and with the fact that I onley live about 4 hours from you in Ohio.....how would you feel about Rolling with my college wrestler and lets take a look. I'am pretty sure hes about your weight.
He has very little BJJ experience.
There again I'am speaking for him and with out his knowledge.....yet hes known to be a gammer. Are you?
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jeff Rockwell on May 13, 2008, 02:10:22 PM
LOL, I had a feeling that was coming.  Thanks, I roll with college wrestlers every day.  If he (or you from the sounds of it) wants to test his skills in a submission environment, enter the Grappler's Quest in New Jersey on June 28th in the advanced division.  I should be there, and if we both do well, no doubt we'll meet.  Better yet, why don't YOU enter?  There are master's and senior's divisions as well as the open, so I'm sure there's somewhere you'll feel comfortable.

Ok, NOW, I'm done with this thread, I promise.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 13, 2008, 02:17:40 PM
Ok, No problem.....It really was not intended so much as a challenge match with any kind of anger or animosity attached.....but just a friendly roll......more for my benifit than yours of course, becuase you already know how you match up against a college wrestler...but I would be intrested to see how well a college wrestler matches up agianst a BJJ brown belt.
 NJ is a little far, besides I'am quite sure I would not do well.......old and tired and all......
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 13, 2008, 02:56:00 PM
http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1584.0

How far is Canton?
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: peregrine on May 15, 2008, 04:25:43 PM
quite amusing
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 15, 2008, 05:22:16 PM
Yea I guess it is. A couple of things though that I find to be quite contrary are the facts that both Gruhn and Jeff agreed with Crafty that Royce Gracie should have trained with wrestlers prior to his"fight" with Matt Hughes.
Yet Jeff insists that the reason why  top notch wrestlers do so well in the UFC, is because they hold some sort of belt in BJJ........
Then again, I know from my Karate experience that holding a belt does not neccassarily make you good at what you do.
I've seen Karate black belts who could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag, but then I've seen green belts who fought like beasts.........kind of why I'am not all that pro belt, ranking....

Its just my opinion, but I feel anyone who can compete at any sport at a college level esp all things equal,like weight classes, has proven themselves....and is pretty solid.

Anyway, I'am really not as big a ass as I may seem,but I do feel quite strongly about my position....or when I take one :lol: (no matter what it may be).....thats why I really do hate all the key board chest bumping.......It really is as Perigrine says....amusing......and proves nothing.......kind of why, I asked Jeff if he would roll with my wrestler........but I do respect his decsion not to............
The adventure continues........
It was good today to have my wrestler home from college......its fun to watch him and his brother spar......like onley two brothers can :lol:.......
The older.....will be fighting in the Aug. gathering..........hes a pretty solid wrestler in his own right :wink:
                                                                Dog TG

Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 15, 2008, 06:49:55 PM
Tom,
  I'm by no means a high level BJJ guy but I'll roll with your wrestler just so long as he doesn't have a large weight advantage on me.  I love rolling with top level guys of which your guy seems to be.  If we all take the Crafty seminar in Ohio we could roll before lunch if you'd like.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 16, 2008, 02:31:23 PM
Ryan,Sorry for thre delayed response....work and all. Anyway.....Nice of you to offer for the roll. For me I would like it to be a semi competitve type deal. Not so much as a winner or loser, but with Dog Brothers spirit....of lets use this as a Lab......experiment a little and lets see.

I would honestly like to see...simple as that.......and For everyone to hear....PLEASE LISTEN YA'LL.......I don't have ANYTHING against BJJ.....
BJ Penn is one of my favorite fighters and one of the best bJJ guys in the UFC(IMHO) I also like Nate Diaz's BJJ....He's pulled of some cool stuff in recent fights.
Anyway having said that....I'am sure my guy would go with you(he said he would with jeff) and maybe we can work out something.
He told me last night he's weighing around 180.
If you come Down to Canton.......
Regardless its all good....... respect for the offer.
                                                                 Dog TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 16, 2008, 04:34:19 PM
Ehhh, if he taps me I think that would be considered a win.  If he out points me, I think it's considered a win.  However, I'm 155 when I'm in shape, soaking wet I might be able to hit 160. That's 20 pounds.  In any event, I'll roll him anyways as I love to train with anyone who has some good experience.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 16, 2008, 05:35:50 PM
Ryan,
Quote
Ehhh, if he taps me I think that would be considered a win.  If he out points me, I think it's considered a win.  However, I'm 155 when I'm in shape,

Agreed but some wreslters are takedown artists....In other words they take down their opponent get the 2 points kick the guy out and take him down again.......16-8 they win 2 points per takedown vs. 1 point per escape...... I'am not looking for anything like that......besides what kind of rules do you want to go by....Wrestlers get points for putting people on their backs :lol:.....obviously a submission is a win regardless...... anyway...we can work on it.

155-160 When in shape? What do you weigh when your not in shape? :-P
My guy I think wrestled at 160 this year...not likley though he'd want to cut weight.......
                                                           Dog TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 16, 2008, 06:35:16 PM
Why don't we just roll to submission?  No time limit.  I don't consider myself to be in shape right now and I walk around at 165-170.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 16, 2008, 07:04:57 PM
Ok.....
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 23, 2008, 03:14:03 PM
Woof, The Fight is tommorrow night.
As I stated Bj Penn is one of my favorite fighters and is probably the odds on fav. to win and I will not be at all suprised if he does.......
What I would like for everyone who watches the fight is to ........ Watch for the contrasting differences in the ground games of the two fighters.
I think this will be a real BJJ vs. wrestler match up, and I think the fight will show that.......time will tell.

If its a stand up fight I think Bj Penn wins........hes got some of the most underated stand up(Imho)
Should be a great fight, 155 is where Penn belongs I hope his cardio is up for it......Can't wait! 8-)

I also will not be suprised if Machida beats Ortiz........my guess Ortiz takes this to the ground in a hurry.
                                              Dog TG
Gruhn.....my wrestler says he wants to stay around 170 this summer.......
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 23, 2008, 04:25:41 PM
My call is that Sherk will take him down and put a "half mount" clinic on BJ.  If not TKO, decision going to Sherk.

Looking forward to meeting you and friend Tom.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 23, 2008, 09:54:36 PM
Any calls on Lyotto Machida's (sp?) fight?  I used to spar with him at RAW and coached him a couple of times on DBMA Kali Tudo.  He's a lefty and seemed very interested in the ideas we worked together.  Very nice guy-- naturally I am routing for him.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: peregrine on May 23, 2008, 11:22:26 PM
My call is that Sherk will take him down and put a "half mount" clinic on BJ.  If not TKO, decision going to Sherk.


I doubt that will happen.
BJs footwork is pretty good even on one leg.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 24, 2008, 06:22:53 AM
Woof, I like this card.....3 good match ups.
Guro Crafty...I posted  previously that I would not be suprised to see Machida beat Ortiz........I think If Ortiz gets him on the ground Ortiz wins. Its fun though to watch Machida because you can really see his Karate come out in his fights and he uses it quite effectivly. Pretty cool you got to work with him....

I was watching count down to UFC 84 last night and there was a clip of Sean Sherk taking his 18 month old son into a pee wee wrestling program......He commmented to his son:  "Don't go to your back, going to your back is for BJJ guys and bad wrestlers". :-D :wink:
That comment kind of left an impression on me.......Ya think. :lol:

Listening to both guys, talk and how much it appears they really hate each other, this is going to really be fun to watch.
Hope Penn, is in shape.......
                                                                      Dog TG
I also agree with Pergrine.....Penn is real flexiable and real hard to take down......yet a deep shot is a deep shot.....anyway........looking forward to this.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 24, 2008, 06:59:40 AM
I caught a bit of the buzz build show on Spike and heard BJ talking about how SS's use of steroids indicated a weak mind/heart.  SS denied using steroids.  Any athoughts on his innocence or guilt and the implications thereof?
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: rio on May 24, 2008, 08:21:31 AM
didn't Sherk appeal and fail subsequent tests to the limit that his suspension had to stand? maybe that's why we havent seen him for awhile . . . his suspension is over, not overturned, so now he can fight again.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 24, 2008, 08:29:43 AM
Woof, Obviously, we can't say for sure weather or not he used roids. When he was at 170lbs. he looked the same as he does at 155 just a bigger version.

I have seen guys at weight gyms who have gotten off of roids and shrank up tremendously....I don't think your going to see this from SS....Besides steriods mostly help the muscle retain water...why would he want that when hes cutting weight?

Though from what I saw last night on spike he did look a little flat, muscular wise....meaning he did'nt look like his muscles were as pumped.
I'am not sure how he could make the claim he didn't know he was taking them......I certainly would'nt pop anything in my mouth without knowing what it was.....So that argument is Bogus IMHO.....

Regardless, I think at 155 your going to see the same Muscle shark and that his performance will be as always......RELENTLESS....    
                                                            Dog TG
Actually his suspension was reduced from 1 year to six months. His levels of nanderlone were not really that high.
Normal people can have up to  6(whatever they measure it in) and his were a 12.
I THINK  Royce Gracie tested at something like 50 or 60
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: peregrine on May 24, 2008, 09:31:14 AM
I wouldn't doubt they've both used chemical enhancing drugs legal and illegal.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 24, 2008, 12:50:45 PM
Woof Pergrine, On the Spike programs you can see Sherk eating vitamins or whatever hes taking.
I agree that probably everyone is using supplements.
The thing is, Just my opinion but theres a lot of legal over the counter stuff out there that would in my opinon suffice....why take the illegal stuff esp when you know your going to get tested.....

Evidently Sherk presented a good enough case to at least get his suspension reduced from a year to six months...think that says something at least by way of doubt.

Like I said his levels were not that high, and I know steriod testing is somewhat suspect.
I don't know what the margin of error is, or how what Sherks natural nanderlone levels actually are....everyone is a little different......
Anyway.....I'am not arguing for him by any means.....he may very well have been using.
It will be intresting to take a look at him tonite.
One thing for sure......I'am looking forward to this fight. 8-) :mrgreen:
I got to say I really like Bj....
                                                   Dog Tom
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Guard Dog on May 24, 2008, 10:42:54 PM
Well I guess it's settled.  Who wins; the wrestler or the BJJ'er?  Neither,.....its the boxer with the longer reach.  :wink:

Good fight tonight and if it wasn't for Sherk being so short in the reach department I think he would have clipped BJ with some of those punches.  I'm still not sure why the heck he stayed right in the firing lane of BJ's jab.  Some false lead jab material really would have done him well.  I'm bummed it didn't go to the ground but hey, it was a decent fight.

Woof!

Gruhn
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 25, 2008, 08:40:52 AM
Woof, I like this card.....3 good match ups.
Guro Crafty...I posted  previously that I would not be suprised to see Machida beat Ortiz........I think If Ortiz gets him on the ground Ortiz wins. Its fun though to watch Machida because you can really see his Karate come out in his fights and he uses it quite effectivly.

I really like Machida. It is great to see someone that can interpret a TMA and make it functional. They are just taught poorly, and trained poorly IMHO. I am glad to see someone be successful with one.

As for the wrestling vs bjj question... I guess that is for another day since I saw neither :P

Sherks boxing looked great... he just could not close and land anything.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 25, 2008, 09:01:09 AM
Woof, I was glad to see Wand , get the win. He really needed  it. Its hard to believe he's onley 31 seems hes been fighting a long time.

Machida in my opinion did just enough to win. I thought he ran alot and did no real damage until the knockdown in the 3rd round. He frustrated a much slower Ortiz, but also bored me..... did any one else hear the boos? Fighting like he did maybe smart in not taking much punishment, but he wont win over many fans or be a draw.....
Hes a good fighter and may some day be great but hes got a ways to go....IMHO....Tito is done in my opinion, he may say he wants to fight but I don't see it.

Quote
As for the wrestling vs bjj question... I guess that is for another day since I saw neither
We get to see that when Gruhn comes to Canton and rolls with my guy.....are you comming to watch Jonobos? :lol:

 Not  wrestling,Could have been Sherks mistake. Penn looked great moving in and out of Sherks range pumping a very sweet jab with an occasional right hand. reach was a definite advantage, but Penn has really good underated striking,
Penn showed no signs of gassing and looked to be flowing very well.....possibly Sherk should have pressured him more from the start , though that can be real dangerous as well.
I think the best fighter won.
                                                         Dog TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 26, 2008, 05:35:25 AM

Quote
As for the wrestling vs bjj question... I guess that is for another day since I saw neither
We get to see that when Gruhn comes to Canton and rolls with my guy.....are you comming to watch Jonobos? :lol:

Unknown at this point. I don't train from the armchair though... I would like to show up and roll around with you and some of your guys ;)  It all depends on my work schedule... we shall see.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 26, 2008, 07:10:24 AM
Woof Jonobos, Well!! I'am at a loss.....Did you mean you want to roll around with me specificly?
My group is rather small actually, right now it consists of myself and three others two are brothers, they both have wrestling backgrounds.
Quote
Unknown at this point

Let me know when you make up your mind. As for rolling with me, well....I never say never, but I will be 48 in sept. and wrestling is real taxing on me. Would you feel good about beating up a tired old man? :lol: Like I said though, I never say never and we will be in training for the gathering by then so....as I said let me know when you make up your mind. The seminar is on a weekend if that helps.
Anyway.....

Quote
I don't train from the armchair though...

If you don't make the Crafty dog seminar........I will have myself and two fighters at the Aug. gathering of the pack......I would fight you there or you could fight one of my guys who is also a pretty solid wrestler.
Any plans for being at the gathering?
                                                                                         Dog TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 26, 2008, 10:02:58 AM
Woof Jonobos, Well!! I'am at a loss.....Did you mean you want to roll around with me specificly?
My group is rather small actually, right now it consists of myself and three others two are brothers, they both have wrestling backgrounds.
Quote
Unknown at this point

Let me know when you make up your mind. As for rolling with me, well....I never say never, but I will be 48 in sept. and wrestling is real taxing on me. Would you feel good about beating up a tired old man? :lol: Like I said though, I never say never and we will be in training for the gathering by then so....as I said let me know when you make up your mind. The seminar is on a weekend if that helps.
Anyway.....

Quote
I don't train from the armchair though...

If you don't make the Crafty dog seminar........I will have myself and two fighters at the Aug. gathering of the pack......I would fight you there or you could fight one of my guys who is also a pretty solid wrestler.
Any plans for being at the gathering?
                                                                                         Dog TG


Well, with you or any of your guys. I was just saying that I would not make the trip all the way out there just to watch :P I like my training hands on, and training with lots of people with different styles is always a positive learning experience! I am certainly not trying to "pick on a tired old man."

I hope to be at a gathering soon, probably not this summer, but soon ;)
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 26, 2008, 11:46:12 AM
Quote
I was just saying that I would not make the trip all the way out there just to watch 

Hopefully the reason you would come, would be for the Crafty dog Seminar.
After Jeff refused my offer to have him roll with my college wrestler, Gruhn stepped up and offered to, at the lunch break of the seminar.
I would also like to have time to grab some lunch........My main goal though is to attend the seminar, not about some off time training....we do that in our regular practices, as I'am sure you do as well.

You actually make mention of it in the other thread (ufc83 Gsp vs. serra)....remember where you mention letting the wrestlers submit you with their sloppy technique and neck cranks.

Anyway, maybe we'll see you at the seminar, or at a gathering sometime......
Thanks for not wanting to pick on a tired old man :lol:
                                                               Dog TG
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 26, 2008, 12:40:04 PM
Quote
Hopefully the reason you would come, would be for the Crafty dog Seminar.

Goes without saying :P Trust me, I am not into all the chest pounding. I would not drive all the way out there just to try and show people up (nor do I think I really could with my meager 1 year of grappling experience,) when we are all practicing members of the same organization.

Quote
After Jeff refused my offer to have him roll with my college wrestler, Gruhn stepped up and offered to, at the lunch break of the seminar.
I would also like to have time to grab some lunch........My main goal though is to attend the seminar, not about some off time training....we do that in our regular practices, as I'am sure you do as well.

Yep, sure do. But I try and train with different people whenever I get the chance. I find it a much better meter of where I stand then rolling with the same people over and over again. Ultimately it is up to you guys. If they want to warm up with some friendly grappling cool. If they want to tumble a bit after the seminar that is cool... If not we will all have a good time soaking in what Crafty has to offer!

Quote
You actually make mention of it in the other thread (ufc83 Gsp vs. serra)....remember where you mention letting the wrestlers submit you with their sloppy technique and neck cranks.

Context is everything ;) I believe my point was that some of the wrestlers I roll with are more interested in winning in class then they are in learning to apply proper technique. I tap out and move on to someone that leaves their ego at the door and wants to learn. We have an open mat at the end of every class where they can steamroll everyone they like and it doesn't waste our training time. I also don't need to spend time in the hospital because someone lacks self control and heal hooks me in class :P

Quote
Anyway, maybe we'll see you at the seminar

You just might, even if you guys don't fancy a little extra credit grappling  :cry:

To bring this back around to original topic... what does everyone think of bj vs gsp?
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Howling Dog on May 26, 2008, 02:07:36 PM
Jonobos, As you said context is everything. When, I orginally asked your instructer to roll with my college wrestler it was  for me , to be done in a way , so as to see how well a BJJ brown belt and a college wrestler both about the same size matched up against each other.  My idea was that this was to be done competitvly. I was refused.
Gruhn stepped up and said he would roll with my guy at the seminar. Gruhn suggested that they grapple to submission. I agreed, my guy says cool.
In context this is not really so much a friendly roll....you show me I'll show you.....type thingy.
Dog Brothers rules do apply...."friends at the end of the day"


As for the rest......like I said, let me know when you decide weather or not you are comming.

                                                                 Dog TG


Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: foxmarten on May 26, 2008, 07:14:44 PM
so as to see how well a BJJ brown belt and a college wrestler both about the same size matched up against each other. [/quote]

Didn't Matt Hughes win an Abu Dhabi match?  BTW bj vs. sean reminded me of Matt vs. GSP II...a guy with a shorter reach standing on the outside and throwing jabs/hooks..didn't work out well.  I'd hate to see bj vs. GSP.  bj is at a good weight right now and fighting someone as big  as GSP might shorten his career.  Kind of like those matches with Wanderlei vs. Sakuraba.  Those definately shortened Sakuraba's career.  It was cool when Sakuraba submitted a very inexperienced Rampage though.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: rio on May 26, 2008, 07:47:01 PM
i agree w/ foxmarten, Baby J will be out of weight class. he did well when he was up there but GSP is a monster on top right now. asking to step up against Rush is like my kids asking to spar with me.
Title: Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
Post by: Jonobos on May 27, 2008, 07:38:07 AM
so as to see how well a BJJ brown belt and a college wrestler both about the same size matched up against each other.

Didn't Matt Hughes win an Abu Dhabi match?  BTW bj vs. sean reminded me of Matt vs. GSP II...a guy with a shorter reach standing on the outside and throwing jabs/hooks..didn't work out well.  I'd hate to see bj vs. GSP.  bj is at a good weight right now and fighting someone as big  as GSP might shorten his career.  Kind of like those matches with Wanderlei vs. Sakuraba.  Those definately shortened Sakuraba's career.  It was cool when Sakuraba submitted a very inexperienced Rampage though.
[/quote]

I don't remember if he won... he did very well in any case.

Sakuraba is just awesome! I am sad to see him go...