Dog Brothers Public Forum
DBMA Martial Arts Forum => Martial Arts Topics => Topic started by: Robin Padilla on August 12, 2004, 04:06:23 AM
-
Hi! I am new and this is my first post.
I was just wondering if anyone has ever been in or witnessed a real Kali fight. Meaning, the fight was in the street and there were no rules. And if you did see one or have been in one, what type of techniques were used and did they have weapons?
I have never seen a real Kali fight so hopefully someone can answer.
Thanks!
-
my friends got in a street fight and one of the guys they fought pulled a chain out of his car and came running at him and swung it at his head.my friend said all he saw was a angle 1.put his arm up and went in with a headbut.the chain wraped around his arm and cliped his ear.but the guy with the chain got a headbut to the face and then his ass rightfully kicked.
came out with a bloody ear.good kali times.
-
what exactly is a "kali" fight, and how is this different from a "regular" fight?
-
A kali fight involves Kali sticks. No Kali sticks = no Kali fight. Eskrima and Arnis sticks are not Kali sticks, either. Often, this happens in book stores when customers linger and don't actually buy anything. Since they are not actually customers, it's time to break out the Kali sticks.
-
Whoops! Sorry. When I said a Kali fight, I meant a real fight where the participants know how to use or understand Kali, Eskrima or Arnis. Basically FMA be it stick, knife or empty hand.
I remember reading a story about how during a prison riot, a prison guard trained in Kali basically utilized nothing more than a roof block followed with some kind of strike to all the inmates who attacked him.
guest... I dont understand what you mean when you say Eskrima and Arnis sticks are not Kali sticks though. I thought the weapon was just an extension of the hand and even if you have a rolled up newspaper, it is still considered Kali???
-
The only Cali I know in the Philippines is the soft-drink. If you put a stick through the can, then it becomes a Cali stick.
-
Whoops! Sorry. When I said a Kali fight, I meant a real fight where the participants know how to use or understand Kali, Eskrima or Arnis. Basically FMA be it stick, knife or empty hand.
I remember reading a story about how during a prison riot, a prison guard trained in Kali basically utilized nothing more than a roof block followed with some kind of strike to all the inmates who attacked him.
guest... I dont understand what you mean when you say Eskrima and Arnis sticks are not Kali sticks though. I thought the weapon was just an extension of the hand and even if you have a rolled up newspaper, it is still co
nsidered Kali???
What Mr. Guest is trying to say is that how can there be such things as kali sticks when a thing like Kali does not exist.
That's why he said Eskrima-Arnis sticks are different.
and the only Cali is the Shandy drink that they have in the Philippines.
did I translate it right mr. guest?
-
Oh. The 'there is no such thing as Kali' topic. LOL
Now, I was never sure if people are saying there was no pre Spanish art or if it simply wasn't called Kali.
Well, who knows what it was called before the arrival of the Spaniards. But it's very funny to see people debate and argue over it.
What do you think the Moros call it? Silat? Kali? Jihad? Definitely not Eskrima or Arnis...But then again "Moro" isn't even an indigineous word. They were named by the Spanish after the Moors who had conquered Spain. So maybe there is no such thing as a Moro.
-
I made that last post by the way. Sorry but I forget to log in. hehe[/img][/code]
-
Oh. The 'there is no such thing as Kali' topic. LOL
Now, I was never sure if people are saying there was no pre Spanish art or if it simply wasn't called Kali.
Well, who knows what it was called before the arrival of the Spaniards. But it's very funny to see people debate and argue over it.
What do you think the Moros call it? Silat? Kali? Jihad? Definitely not Eskrima or Arnis...But then again "Moro" isn't even an indigineous word. They were named by the Spanish after the Moors who had conquered Spain. So maybe there is no such thing as a Moro.
well... there was no Philippines...nor Filipinos before the Spaniards came...that's why the "country" was conquered because most tribes/towns/balanghays were fighting for their own safety... all 7,107 islands (and plus perhaps Sabah which was handed to Malaysia by the British instead to the rightful owner, the Sultan of Sulu, who leased the land to the British... and also the Spratley islands and Scarborough shoal that are now partly occupied by China)
...it was only during Gen. Emilio Aguinaldo's time that there was more unity amongs different regions to fight the Spanish...and they eventually became "successful"...
...hence, we "gained" our independence from the Spanish after 300 years... only to be duped by the American Commodore Dewey later by promising that they were going to help the Filipinos against the Spaniards...instead, the Philippines had a short-lived "independence" in 1898 from the Spanish and got occupied by the Americans who were supposed to help Gen. Aguinaldo...
...and about the Moros...who knows?... the nearest reference to the word kali is pagkakalikali, which is a word from the Northern Philippines... Moros are from the South...I asked a friend from down south and he told me that the only martial art that their "tribe" knows is Kuntao, and they even refer to it as being "Chinese"...
-
I suggest that a FMA practitioner does NOT have to shy away from calling the art the 'ancient art of KALI'.
The problem isn't whether or not an 'ancient fighting method' ever existed - no one who has done their research disputes this, but the arguement is whether or not the term KALI was ever used in the islands PRIOR to its popularity in the States (or around that time). That's still up to the folks who want to argue such matters.
Now it may be a weird out of the box suggestion but I don't think a Filipino should have to shy away from calling their FMA the 'ancient art of ARNIS or ESKRIMA' either. The terms still refer to the Filipino's ancient fighting methods.
The Filipino's ANCIENT fighting methods have no UNIFIED name PRIOR to the turn of the century -it NEVER has and NEVER will, so all THREE terms are relatively NEW. The term, KALI is just used more here in the US and like ARNIS /ESKRIMA it refers to the same ANCIENT art.
The ANCIENT Art isn't uniform in any sense of the word either since as many will tell you- you won't be able to find ten tatangs from different systems who agree on ONE way to do all things. So why begin with the term?
Now another FMA system who uses KALI may not agree with this idea. They might say that the SPANISH influenced words ARNIS/ESKRIMA dilutes the ANCIENT art. I think that's tends to be divisive.
Some Filipinos also have this idea that one has to live in the Philippines to be considered FILIPINO, thus when they say KALI isn't Filipino that's what they are suggesting. Even if SOME of the people who teach and use the term KALI are Filipinos who live in the US. Even if some of these Filipinos were born in the islands and migrated to the US. I think that's tends to be divisive.
Divided... so what else is new?
--Rafael--
---------
---------
------------
-
Do we really have to use advertising titles like "ANCIENT", or "LOST", or "the MOTHER ART" to sell our martial arts?
Why can't we just say, this is ARNIS, from Northern Philippines. And this is Eskrima from the Bisayan region, which is Central Philippines and Northern Mindanao. The Muslims have adopted Chinese kun tao (way of fist), or kuntaw. They also have Silat, which they share with their Muslim brethrens in Malaysia and Indonesia. Plus, we also have KALI, we can't really pin point where this is used in the Philippines, nor can we say which group uses it, but many American-Filipinos use this title. They are all blade oriented, and weapon based. They are all effective.
There you go. So, no one's trying to out do each other, to get more seminar attendance. No propaganda. No rhetoric. Just straight to the point and truthful.
-
<<Do we really have to use advertising titles like "ANCIENT", or "LOST", or "the MOTHER ART" to sell our martial arts? >>
I wouldn't disagree since in Sayoc Kali one of our mottos is "not the PAST but the Future".
We're proud of the evolution and current representation rather than what someone did five hundred years ago or even five years ago.
--Rafael--
--------
-------
---------
--------
-
OK. There is no sense in calling the art Arnis, Kali, or Eskrima.
So, from now on let's just call it Karate. eg. Sayoc Karate,
Karates Ilustrisimo, Pekiti Tirsia Karate, Lameco Karate etc..
-
OK. There is no sense in calling the art Arnis, Kali, or Eskrima.
So, from now on let's just call it Karate. eg. Sayoc Karate,
Karates Ilustrisimo, Pekiti Tirsia Karate, Lameco Karate etc..
Sayoc Kali, Kalis Ilustrisimo, Pekiti Tirsia Kali, and LAMECO... You can name your art anything, but when you start downgrading other arts thru unsubstantiated propaganda, like "our art is the original art from which other arts come from, this is the mother of all arts". Then you only have two choices: support your claims or change your advertising strategy. Because now it's become obvious that Kali is neither Ancient nor Filipino.
-
How could Kali be neither ancient or Filipino?? and How is it so obvious?
Just because some people in the Philippines never heard the word it is obvious that Kali is neither ancient nor Filipino??
Then where do anting anting come from??? Do they come from Arnis? How about the Kampilan? Is that an arnis weapon as well?
I have a book written by Anima that lists describes Filipino Martial Arts.
The book includes, Buno, Dumog, Finger Wrestling, and Kali. It says that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali. This book was written and published in the Philippines by a Filipino long before the internet was invented to allow for this silly debate. You should get the book too. You will recognize that Kali comes from the Philippines and not America.
Kali is the mother art. It employs the use of weapons such as the Kris, Kampilan, Barong. It evolved into Arnis/Eskrima after being outlawed by the Spanish.
If anyone is going to say that Kali does not exist, or is not ancient of Filipino then prove it.
-
I am aware of the Yamboa book with the Mirafuentes intro which references Kali back in the 1950s, but have not heard of this Anima book. What can you tell us about it? When, where was it written? Who is Anima?
-
How could Kali be neither ancient or Filipino?? and How is it so obvious?
Just because some people in the Philippines never heard the word it is obvious that Kali is neither ancient nor Filipino??
Then where do anting anting come from??? Do they come from Arnis? How about the Kampilan? Is that an arnis weapon as well?
I have a book written by Anima that lists describes Filipino Martial Arts.
The book includes, Buno, Dumog, Finger Wrestling, and Kali. It says that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali. This book was written and published in the Philippines by a Filipino long before the internet was invented to allow for this silly debate. You should get the book too. You will recognize that Kali comes from the Philippines and not America.
Kali is the mother art. It employs the use of weapons such as the Kris, Kampilan, Barong. It evolved into Arnis/Eskrima after being outlawed by the Spanish.
If anyone is going to say that Kali does not exist, or is not ancient of Filipino then prove it.
I am familiar with that book that has too many broad and sweeping subjects but does not go deep as regards to content.
Yes. I read the book before from cover to cover and that was before I ever heard of any internet or even learned to use a computer (I remember those days when you had to put in a systems floppy disc in the a drive to boot the computer).
Yes, it is true that it came before the internet in the Phillippines but it was also during that time that Kali was being promoted through the bootleg version of Inosanto's book being sold so cheaply in the bookstores.
The same goes for Blackbelt magazine that always showed these "Kali" stories for all Filipinos to read. So even before the internet came, this heresy gospel of "Kali the mother art" being proliferated by American media has been spreading in the Philippines for a long time.
You are the one supposed to prove that Kali is not the mother art because the status quo in the Philippines is that Arnis and Eskrima are the real deal. And you got it wrong when you mentioned "some people in the Philippines" because the truth is "most people" if I may say 99% of the millions of the total population and perhaps more than 50% of the total percentage of practitioners in the country has never heard of it.
-
How could Kali be neither ancient or Filipino?? and How is it so obvious?
Ancient here is pre-Spanish/pure "Filipino". Keep in mind that the word "filipino" a century ago was only reserved for Spaniards born in the Philippines. We non-Spanish were called "indios" or indians. So, already we covered the word Ancient and Filipino as both words relate to one another. In essence "ancient filipino" is an oxymoron. You can have an "ancient tagalog" or "ancient tausug", but not "ancient filipino".
Just because some people in the Philippines never heard the word it is obvious that Kali is neither ancient nor Filipino??
It is not 'some', but Most. Go to Cagayan de Oro, Bantayan Island, Zamboanga, and Metro Manila, and talk to the old-timers (70 to 80, or even 90 yrs old), and ask them what Kali is? Further, visit indigenous tribes such as the T'boli, Aetas, Negritos, or Bago'bo's and ask them about Kali. Both Low land westernized Filipinos and High land tribal filipinos will not be familiar with Kali.
Then where do anting anting come from??? Do they come from Arnis? How about the Kampilan? Is that an arnis weapon as well?
We know what anting-antings are already. We also know what a Kampilan is and also what a sundang or bolo or kalis or barong is. You ask a bisaya or a tagalog or a waray about these things, chances are they'll know what they are, Most will know. They may not know how to use these things but they'll know what they are. They'll also know what an orasyon is or an arbolario. So, these words have nothing to do with Kali, they are independent names of objects.
I have a book written by Anima that lists describes Filipino Martial Arts. The book includes, Buno, Dumog, Finger Wrestling, and Kali. It says that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali. This book was written and published in the Philippines by a Filipino long before the internet was invented to allow for this silly debate. You should get the book too. You will recognize that Kali comes from the Philippines and not America.
I am afraid I am not familiar with Anima. What is the title of this book and when was it published? And most importantly, who is Anima? Is he a martial artist? Historian? Buno and Dumog are used in the Visayas as well as in Luzon (also in Mindanao).
"Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali", this is exactly what we are trying to stop. This notion that Kali is the "deadliest mother art" and a "blade only art". Leo Giron, called his art 'Arnis' and he employed a bolo in WWII and killed a lot of Japanese with his sword. Was his killing of enemy soldiers, 'sanitized'? Many Doce Pares fighters in Cebu fought in WWII, they call their art Eskrima, but they too used their bolos and sundangs to kill a lot of the enemy soldiers. 'Sanitized'?
Kali is the mother art. It employs the use of weapons such as the Kris, Kampilan, Barong. It evolved into Arnis/Eskrima after being outlawed by the Spanish.
This is the old "Kali" propaganda, mostly due to Guro Inosanto's first book, in which he categorizes "Arnis in the North, Eskrima in the Middle, and Kali in the South of the Philippines". Firstly, the Kris, Kampilan, and Barong are Muslim weapons. Filipino muslims don't use Kali. But they do use Kuntaw and Silat, they also use Tausug specific, Maranao, Yakan, and Samal specific terms. But, no Kali as "the Ancient Filipino art".
Next you would want to prove where this word Kali is used in the Philippines. Why is it that those who use Kali cannot trace this word to any linguistic group in the Philippines? Do the Tagalogs use Kali? or how about the Ilokanos? or how about the Pampanguenos?
And lastly, if this word was "Filipino" and "Ancient", why are there no natural conjugations of this word? For example, we have 'digma'an' or 'dirigma' or the guy that does these things is a 'mandirigma' (warrior). What is the guy that practices Kali called? a Kali-man (like Spider-man?) or a Kalista (like the Starbucks barista?).
So, linguistic, culture, and history are against your propaganda. If you're going to insist on using Kali, then you'll have to go along with what Sayoc Kali have done: "not the Past, but the Future". You're going to have to leave behind the old propaganda: "Kali is the Ancient Mother art of the Filipinos". It just doesn't hold up anymore.
-
How could Kali be neither ancient or Filipino?? and How is it so obvious?
Ancient here is pre-Spanish/pure "Filipino". Keep in mind that the word "filipino" a century ago was only reserved for Spaniards born in the Philippines. We non-Spanish were called "indios" or indians. So, already we covered the word Ancient and Filipino as both words relate to one another. In essence "ancient filipino" is an oxymoron. You can have an "ancient tagalog" or "ancient tausug", but not "ancient filipino".
Just because some people in the Philippines never heard the word it is obvious that Kali is neither ancient nor Filipino??
It is not 'some', but Most. Go to Cagayan de Oro, Bantayan Island, Zamboanga, and Metro Manila, and talk to the old-timers (70 to 80, or even 90 yrs old), and ask them what Kali is? Further, visit indigenous tribes such as the T'boli, Aetas, Negritos, or Bago'bo's and ask them about Kali. Both Low land westernized Filipinos and High land tribal filipinos will not be familiar with Kali.
Then where do anting anting come from??? Do they come from Arnis? How about the Kampilan? Is that an arnis weapon as well?
We know what anting-antings are already. We also know what a Kampilan is and also what a sundang or bolo or kalis or barong is. You ask a bisaya or a tagalog or a waray about these things, chances are they'll know what they are, Most will know. They may not know how to use these things but they'll know what they are. They'll also know what an orasyon is or an arbolario. So, these words have nothing to do with Kali, they are independent names of objects.
I have a book written by Anima that lists describes Filipino Martial Arts. The book includes, Buno, Dumog, Finger Wrestling, and Kali. It says that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali. This book was written and published in the Philippines by a Filipino long before the internet was invented to allow for this silly debate. You should get the book too. You will recognize that Kali comes from the Philippines and not America.
I am afraid I am not familiar with Anima. What is the title of this book and when was it published? And most importantly, who is Anima? Is he a martial artist? Historian? Buno and Dumog are used in the Visayas as well as in Luzon (also in Mindanao).
"Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali", this is exactly what we are trying to stop. This notion that Kali is the "deadliest mother art" and a "blade only art". Leo Giron, called his art 'Arnis' and he employed a bolo in WWII and killed a lot of Japanese with his sword. Was his killing of enemy soldiers, 'sanitized'? Many Doce Pares fighters in Cebu fought in WWII, they call their art Eskrima, but they too used their bolos and sundangs to kill a lot of the enemy soldiers. 'Sanitized'?
Kali is the mother art. It employs the use of weapons such as the Kris, Kampilan, Barong. It evolved into Arnis/Eskrima after being outlawed by the Spanish.
This is the old "Kali" propaganda, mostly due to Guro Inosanto's first book, in which he categorizes "Arnis in the North, Eskrima in the Middle, and Kali in the South of the Philippines". Firstly, the Kris, Kampilan, and Barong are Muslim weapons. Filipino muslims don't use Kali. But they do use Kuntaw and Silat, they also use Tausug specific, Maranao, Yakan, and Samal specific terms. But, no Kali as "the Ancient Filipino art".
Next you would want to prove where this word Kali is used in the Philippines. Why is it that those who use Kali cannot trace this word to any linguistic group in the Philippines? Do the Tagalogs use Kali? or how about the Ilokanos? or how about the Pampanguenos?
And lastly, if this word was "Filipino" and "Ancient", why are there no natural conjugations of this word? For example, we have 'digma'an' or 'dirigma' or the guy that does these things is a 'mandirigma' (warrior). What is the guy that practices Kali called? a Kali-man (like Spider-man?) or a Kalista (like the Starbucks barista?).
So, linguistic, culture, and history are against your propaganda. If you're going to insist on using Kali, then you'll have to go along with what Sayoc Kali have done: "not the Past, but the Future". You're going to have to leave behind the old propaganda: "Kali is the Ancient Mother art of the Filipinos". It just doesn't hold up anymore.
very well said!
-
BEGIN:
This is the old "Kali" propaganda, mostly due to Guro Inosanto's first book, in which he categorizes "Arnis in the North, Eskrima in the Middle, and Kali in the South of the Philippines". Firstly, the Kris, Kampilan, and Barong are Muslim weapons. Filipino muslims don't use Kali. But they do use Kuntaw and Silat, they also use Tausug specific, Maranao, Yakan, and Samal specific terms. But, no Kali as "the Ancient Filipino art".
END
Umm, IIRC Guro Inosanto says nothing-- the essays therein quote his teachers. This point has been made MANY times.
DBMA uses the term Kali. We do not and have never made any claims about mother art, etc. Those who continue to claim the term has NO validity need to address the Mirafuentes intro (1951? 1958?) to the Yambao book.
That said, the term has come to be a popular one here in the US-- usually without claims of mother art-hood etc. Regardless of how the tempest of the historians amongst us (certainly not me) turns out, I suspect it will continue to be a popular term. For the typical American mind the linguistic, tribal, cultural complexities of the Philippines are overwhelming and in the face of tremendous heated diversity amongst Filipinos for us to hold an opinion in these matters feels like it would be a matter of random and arbitrary choice.
I'm going to the gym to work on my Kali outside diamond for MMA.
Woof to all,
Crafty Dog
-
Umm, IIRC Guro Inosanto says nothing-- the essays therein quote his teachers. This point has been made MANY times.
mostly due to Guro Inosanto's first book, in which he categorizes "Arnis in the North, Eskrima in the Middle, and Kali in the South of the Philippines". Guro Inosanto has never been to the Philippines. So, we pretty much already know that he's speaking on behalf of some of his teachers. Specifically, Villabrille and Largusa's use of Kali.
DBMA uses the term Kali. We do not and have never made any claims about mother art, etc. Those who continue to claim the term has NO validity need to address the Mirafuentes intro (1951? 1958?) to the Yambao book.
As far as Mirafuertes' use of Kali, the jury is still out. I believe Mr. Galang (from Bakbakan) will be coming out with a book on this subject. Some have pointed out that Kali is used among Ilokanos. Others have said that Kali is the truncated version of Kalirongan. There's also another version which states that Mirafuertes got this term from Villabrille in the 1950s on his return from Hawaii. Hopefully, we'll get more info.
That said, the term has come to be a popular one here in the US-- usually without claims of mother art-hood etc. Regardless of how the tempest of the historians amongst us (certainly not me) turns out, I suspect it will continue to be a popular term. For the typical American mind the linguistic, tribal, cultural complexities of the Philippines are overwhelming and in the face of tremendous heated diversity amongst Filipinos for us to hold an opinion in these matters feels like it would be a matter of random and arbitrary choice.
The popularity of Kali is obvious. Specially, now in Hollywood with the "Borne" series, the Hunted, and other movies. And every time Kali is introduced to non-Filipinos, it is with the propaganda that "it is the mother art". If you do not agree with this then try this little exercise: say a new student comes in and learns Kali from you, then after training, he asks you what Kali is and how it's different from Arnis and Eskrima. How do you explain Kali vis a vis Arnis and Eskrima? (there will always be this exotic element that Kali is Blade, Ancient, and the Mother of all art Filipino. then he asks what part of the Philippines it's from.)
Further, the reality of Kali and the rhetoric behind this word is more like Robin Padilla's notion of Kali, and he got this from magazines, teachers, and books (like Inosanto's). A great many Kali instructors are not like DB or Sayoc Kali, a great many of them go around spewing the same propaganda Robin Padilla swallowed. And therein lies the problem, because it is the miseducation of our own countrymen.
I'm going to the gym to work on my Kali outside diamond for MMA.
OK... I'll be working on my Kalibangan sa Lubot (that is the Ancient name of my art, passed down from my father, his father, and his father's father, and my grandmother's uncle. it is a deadly art.)
-
<<OK. There is no sense in calling the art Arnis, Kali, or Eskrima.
So, from now on let's just call it Karate. eg. Sayoc Karate,
Karates Ilustrisimo, Pekiti Tirsia Karate, Lameco Karate etc..>>
Robin,
Isn't this akin to opening a can of worms and pouring them into a vat of worms?
Using Karate in the description would just lead to more confusion.
--Rafael--
----------
----------
-----------
--------
-
So, after all of this, there are no Kali sticks with which to beat perennial browsers or loiterers at the book store. So, with what should be beat them with?
-
That's funny guest.
BEGIN
And every time Kali is introduced to non-Filipinos, it is with the propaganda that "it is the mother art". If you do not agree with this then try this little exercise: say a new student comes in and learns Kali from you, then after training, he asks you what Kali is and how it's different from Arnis and Eskrima. How do you explain Kali vis a vis Arnis and Eskrima? (there will always be this exotic element that Kali is Blade, Ancient, and the Mother of all art Filipino. then he asks what part of the Philippines it's from.)
END
I would certainly contest the assertion here about "EVERY time Kali is introduced". Maybe its just that we may travel in different circles (and I travel more than most) but in fact I definitely doubt that its any more than a small minority of the time that one runs into this. Most people I know think its simply uncool to talk that way.
As for what I say when someone asks me, I say that it seems to be a matter of baffling quasi-theological importance to some Filipinos and that I stay as far away from seeking to persuade anybody of anything as I can. I say that some attack us for our use of the term, but that I receive the term from my teacher Guro Inosanto and I think it has merit.
yip!
Crafty Dog
-
I would certainly contest the assertion here about "EVERY time Kali is introduced". Maybe its just that we may travel in different circles (and I travel more than most) but in fact I definitely doubt that its any more than a small minority of the time that one runs into this. Most people I know think its simply uncool to talk that way.
FYI: In the Philippines, because of a few returning Filipinos (from the US), Kali is becoming popular. They have websites, tv programs, European/American students, govertment backing, and good funding. We already know Kali is basically Arnis and Eskrima with a different title. 70% of the terminology is Spanish, with some spatterings of Filipino. But, the danger here is that people like Robin Padilla are being miseducated about the realities of this title. So, now you have hundreds of young Filipinos in the Philippines going around saying, "Kali is the mother art, Arnis is the sanitized version". This is not only wrong, but very disrespectful to the eskrimadors who stayed here, and never set foot on American soil.
-
I think it's wonderful that "hundreds of young Filipinos in the Philippines going around saying, "Kali is the mother art, Arnis is the sanitized version".
Don't worry Guest. There is absolutely no danger and no miseducation regarding this matter.
If you can read and write in Alibata, there is Kali in the Alphabet. It is impossible to conjure up either Arnis or Eskrima.
Go to the mountains and ask an Igorot.. They will recognize the word Kali but more than they will the other names.
Yambao's book references Kali, and all we get are excuses to further perpetuate the argument that Kali does not exist. "Well....Villabrille made up Kali when he went to Hawaii"
Antonio Ilustrisimo himself called his art Kali. How did he manage to name his art Kali if he lived and died in the Philippines? Do you think he came up with the word Kali when he was in New York?
It is about time that the Pinoys recognize the terms Arnis and Eskrima are evolutions of Kali the mother art as a result of Spanish occupation.
It is silly if any eskrimadors believe this is disrespectful or wrong.
What I find disrespectful is the fact that certain individuals from certain schools..just because they're teacher called their art "Arnis" only decide that it is wrong and disrespectful for other fighters from a different region to call it Kali.
-
I think it's wonderful that "hundreds of young Filipinos in the Philippines going around saying, "Kali is the mother art, Arnis is the sanitized version".
Miseducation and Ignorance...
If you can read and write in Alibata, there is Kali in the Alphabet. It is impossible to conjure up either Arnis or Eskrima.
You can also find syllables like KA and SI, or KA and BI, or KA and TI. You can find these syllables in other languages too. As far as Arnis and Eskrima go, we've already noted that they are filipinized Spanish words.
Go to the mountains and ask an Igorot.. They will recognize the word Kali but more than they will the other names.
Will the Igorot recognize Kali as the "Ancient Mother art of the Philippines"? Is this what they call their Art? Tuhon Rafael is from Northern Luzon, maybe he can verify that claim.
[/quote]Yambao's book references Kali, and all we get are excuses to further perpetuate the argument that Kali does not exist. "Well....Villabrille made up Kali when he went to Hawaii"
Like we already said, Mirafuerte's use of Kali is still under investigation. But, realistically, if this is your only evidence of Kali, then your argument is weak.
Antonio Ilustrisimo himself called his art Kali. How did he manage to name his art Kali if he lived and died in the Philippines? Do you think he came up with the word Kali when he was in New York?
Correction, it's Kalis Ilustrisimo. Tatang Ilustrisimo said he called it Kali upon the insistence of GT Leo Gaje Jr. after coming from NY. Mr. Rey Galang will be coming out with a book later this year. But, read "Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo". Tatang Ilustrisimo is from Bantayan Island, Cebu. He's always called his art Eskrima. His nephew and student was Floro Villabrille. Kalis is a sword, related to Keris.
It is about time that the Pinoys recognize the terms Arnis and Eskrima are evolutions of Kali the mother art as a result of Spanish occupation.
You don't listen to reason. People in this forum have already made it clear that this propaganda is obsolete. They use the term Kali also, but they don't use the same propaganda you're using. This was true in the 1970s, but not anymore.
It is silly if any eskrimadors believe this is disrespectful or wrong.
What I find disrespectful is the fact that certain individuals from certain schools..just because they're teacher called their art "Arnis" only decide that it is wrong and disrespectful for other fighters from a different region to call it Kali.
You using the term Kali is not the issue here, but rather the propaganda you use along with this term. This is disrespectful. When you say that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali, you're basically saying Arnis is the lesser art (in the end of course, it's the individual that makes the art).
So, when we're correcting you, it is just to give you the other perspective, long overlooked, that Kali stands on very shaky grounds.
"other fighters from a different region to call it Kali." Which region are these 'other fighters' from in the Philippines, exactly?
Miseducation of your own culture and history is a dangerous thing. Because before long you will start spewing Kali in the Bothoan school, or the Code of Kalantaw, or other BS. You'll be misrepresenting your own culture. This may not be important for Americans, but for Filipinos who only have so little of their culture intact, it is crucial. Think. Discern.
-
Rodger,
I am not using Yambao's book as evidence to Kali. In fact I have not even read the book but am very happy that Rey Galang has reissued it.
One book I will use as evidence however, is Punong Guro Edgar Sulite's
"Secrets of Arnis"
In this book it says Antonio Ilustrisimo is a Kali Master from Cebu and that Kali is the pre-Hispanic martial art. In the whole entire book, this is the only section I recall that mentions Kali.
As far as KaliS Ilustrisimo...wasn't that S added only 2 years ago?
But if it was called Kali only because of Tuhon Gaje's insistence, then that's cool because we all should be calling it Kali because it is the rightful name of the pre Spanish art.
-
Whoops! Forgot to log in again on that last post. hehe
-
Rodger,
I am not using Yambao's book as evidence to Kali. In fact I have not even read the book but am very happy that Rey Galang has reissued it.
One book I will use as evidence however, is Punong Guro Edgar Sulite's
"Secrets of Arnis"
PG Edgar Sulite, Romeo Macapagal, Tony Diego, Yuli Romo, Ray Galang, and Christopher Ricketts (and also Ray Floro) make up the big names of Kalis Ilustrisimo. The same persons (except of course for Mr. Sulite, may he rest in peace) were responsible for writing "the Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo". So, what Mr. Sulite wrote in his older work is now superceded (in research) by the works of his friends and colleagues. You are relying on an obsolete work, as far as Kali is concerned. The Ilustrisimo camp has revised their own history as it relates to Kali. Again, you?re wrong.
In this book it says Antonio Ilustrisimo is a Kali Master from Cebu and that Kali is the pre-Hispanic martial art. In the whole entire book, this is the only section I recall that mentions Kali.
Antonio Ilustrisimo used Eskrima, not Kali. Again, I refer you to "the Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo" for this, the newer work concerning Antonio Ilustrisimo's history and art. Please correct yourself.
As far as KaliS Ilustrisimo...wasn't that S added only 2 years ago?
The 'S' was added only recently, in light of the strong contentions (such as the ones in this thread) experienced by the old "kali" propaganda. In short, they too had to change their rhetoric, away from the old "Ancient, Mother art" rhetoric. Using ?Kalis? (sword) to them was more fitting.
But if it was called Kali only because of Tuhon Gaje's insistence, then that's cool because we all should be calling it Kali because it is the rightful name of the pre Spanish art.
With the preponderance of evidence against the "Kali is the Mother art" propaganda, to conclude the above is the exact opposite of logical thinking. In short, you are running out of reasons for claiming Kali as the Mother art. Your inability to construct--at the very least--a mediocre argument, should now be obvious.
"we all should be calling it Kali because it is the rightful name of the pre Spanish art"... Again, where is your proof to support this claim? If you read all the way up this thread, you'll see that you have nothing, thus far.
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but 'Kali' is not the "rightful name of the pre Spanish art". If it was you would've had an easier time convincing us.
-
During the early seventies there was resurgence of Philippine pride and the government under Marcos rule stressed the nationalistic pride. That era was also the same era that Filipinos began using 'Kali' in the context that Robin has written. I still haven't found anything that supports the mention of the term prior to turn of the 1900's.. however I have also mentioned there wasn't ANY term to describe any nationalistic martial art.
Now we can use the word "Barangay" as an example. Many of us here believe that barangay is a term that is Filipino in origin and that tribes used this term to describe their village. It was even a title of a book by William Henry Scott a noted Filipino historian.
However, the same course was taken by this term that I believe the word 'Kali' has taken in it's evolution as something that is Filipino in origin.
In fact, the word Barangay was a politically motivated term instituted by the Marcos regime (Presidential Decree No. 705) that was meant to imply that the Philippine Islands as a WHOLE was integrated or at least shared the same cultural traits BEFORE Spanish arrival. Villages were now instructed to begin using the term, 'barangay'.
Here's the problem... Barangay isn't a word in some of the major tribes' vocabulary. There is NATIVE term,"barangay" in Northern Luzon; Ilocano use the word, ili to denote village. In Igorot (Buntoc) it is Ba-barey or Ab-abongan. Even Tagalog uses the term, "nayon" for village.
Barangay was a Malayo-Polynesian term that meant boats. It symbolized the arrival of the ancient Malays on the islands via boat. Yet, today the majority of Filipinos adopt the word instead of the SPANISH based terms (ie: barrio) when they want to relate to the time before the Spanish, or to imply nationalistic terminology.
In the anthropological study of the hill people in Northern Luzon collected in the book, CORDILLERA: Diversity in Culture Change (where a majority of the info in this post is culled) a very important observation was made:
"Therefore, it will be more appropriate to say that before the Spanish Era, there were VARIOUS terms to denote local organization in the Philippines and thus, there were VARIOUS types of village organization or local community."
That may be an appropriate comment for the whole discourse on the word Kali as well in the way it fits into the collective which is the Filipino Martial Arts.
<<Will the Igorot recognize Kali as the "Ancient Mother art of the Philippines"? Is this what they call their Art? Tuhon Rafael is from Northern Luzon, maybe he can verify that claim. >>
I'm not a linguist of Northern tribal dialects but the way I see it... tribes do not call their fighting art anything. Tribes describe what we would call their training as "mock fighting" so it is structured (if any structure can be attributed to the learning method) under the studies a young boy learns in their rituals. For example, tribal men learn rituals for headhunting by mock fighting. They set a time and place and take it VERY seriously. All misfortune to the tribe that is unnatural is somehow linked to headhunting. Whether they practice today or not, the rituals are very important to the society. The taking of an enemy head is called 'Chita', they have a term for the attempts to kill with a spear "Mafofongot". The "Chomallong" is the ritual trip where a husband goes into the forest with two other males and they build a straw man (tribal version of practice dummies/). The husband then takes a sharpened stick and uses it to attack the straw man and severs the head. All have a secondary purpose, beyond the arts of war. For example this ritual practice (which we could understandably call a training session) links "the decrease of the outer world (the enemy) to the increase of the inner world in general." Woman had their own rituals which can be described as being martial arts practice as ritual.. such as piercing a gaba tree with a spear with the goal of knocking it over with one blow. A battle cry of triumph during headhunting is called "humipag". The act of running around and attacking people with a spear or sword is called, "chumuhig".
Of interest is the word, UKALI which in Bontok means the customary law of inheritance and adoption. In the unique framework of the Northern tribal system's interpretation of their martial practice, and the system of their warrior rank recognized by the inheritance of ceremonial spears and practical spears, family is defined by these ranking systems and not necessarily through blood relations. One can be adopted into another family. Tribes are broken down as ranks and ranks are recognized by the inherited ceremonial power objects such as weapons and armlets or leglets.
So it all depends on how our western or 'martial arts' mental framework understand how tribal practices differ from how we interpret what is FMA. Indegenous tribes do not call it Arnis or Eskrima either.. nor do they practice or learn the FMA the same way or even in the same context (in general).
If we think FMA is something you go to pay an instructor, join a club or school and study like any other MA then the answer is "no there's no word or term that is native in origin which relates to FMA".
Yet there can be a strong argument that if we view tribal fighting methods and ranking systems as part of their customary law of inheritance and adoption.. then yes, there is a word that relates and it is UKALI.
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Not the PAST but the Future!"
--------------
--------------
-------------
--------------
-
"There is NATIVE term,"barangay" in Northern Luzon; Ilocano use the word, ili to denote village. In Igorot (Buntoc) it is Ba-barey or Ab-abongan. Even Tagalog uses the term, "nayon" for village. "
Correctionj:
"There is NO NATIVE term,"barangay" in Northern Luzon; Ilocano use the word, ili to denote village. In Igorot (Buntoc) it is Ba-barey or Ab-abongan. Even Tagalog uses the term, "nayon" for village.
"
--RK--
------
------
-------
-
Will the Igorot recognize Kali as the "Ancient Mother art of the Philippines"? Is this what they call their Art? Tuhon Rafael is from Northern Luzon, maybe he can verify that claim.
I'm not a linguist of Northern tribal dialects but the way I see it... tribes do not call their fighting art anything. Tribes describe what we would call their training as "mock fighting" so it is structured (if any structure can be attributed to the learning method) under the studies a young boy learns in their rituals. For example, tribal men learn rituals for headhunting by mock fighting. They set a time and place and take it VERY seriously. All misfortune to the tribe that is unnatural is somehow linked to headhunting. Whether they practice today or not, the rituals are very important to the society. The taking of an enemy head is called 'Chita', they have a term for the attempts to kill with a spear "Mafofongot". The "Chomallong" is the ritual trip where a husband goes into the forest with two other males and they build a straw man (tribal version of practice dummies/). The husband then takes a sharpened stick and uses it to attack the straw man and severs the head. All have a secondary purpose, beyond the arts of war. For example this ritual practice (which we could understandably call a training session) links "the decrease of the outer world (the enemy) to the increase of the inner world in general." Woman had their own rituals which can be described as being martial arts practice as ritual.. such as piercing a gaba tree with a spear with the goal of knocking it over with one blow. A battle cry of triumph during headhunting is called "humipag". The act of running around and attacking people with a spear or sword is called, "chumuhig".
Of interest is the word, UKALI which in Bontok means the customary law of inheritance and adoption. In the unique framework of the Northern tribal system's interpretation of their martial practice, and the system of their warrior rank recognized by the inheritance of ceremonial spears and practical spears, family is defined by these ranking systems and not necessarily through blood relations. One can be adopted into another family. Tribes are broken down as ranks and ranks are recognized by the inherited ceremonial power objects such as weapons and armlets or leglets.
So it all depends on how our western or 'martial arts' mental framework understand how tribal practices differ from how we interpret what is FMA. Indegenous tribes do not call it Arnis or Eskrima either.. nor do they practice or learn the FMA the same way or even in the same context (in general).
If we think FMA is something you go to pay an instructor, join a club or school and study like any other MA then the answer is "no there's no word or term that is native in origin which relates to FMA".
Yet there can be a strong argument that if we view tribal fighting methods and ranking systems as part of their customary law of inheritance and adoption.. then yes, there is a word that relates and it is UKALI.
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Not the PAST but the Future!"
Thanks, Tuhon Rafael. I understand, aside from Igorots, there are also a great number of other tribes located in Northern Luzon. Do they all share this word? (UKALI).
On a side note, I heard the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) do not even venture in that region. And the NPA (the New People's Army) always have a hard time convincing the tribes up north of the virtues of Marx's theory.
-
"Therefore, it will be more appropriate to say that before the Spanish Era, there were VARIOUS terms to denote local organization in the Philippines and thus, there were VARIOUS types of village organization or local community."
So, in the Visayas, they called their martial arts Eskrima or Pangamot. The Tagalogs, Arnis and Panantukan. The Muslims in the South, use Silat or Kuntaw.
Where is Kali used in the Philippines? Which region? For now, Robin Padilla can say there's a word Ukali, that might relate to Kali, in Bontoc province. But, at this point he should now separate himself from the 1970s Kali propaganda that has infected his worldview of FMA. There is no such thing as the Mother Art, or 'original' pre-Spanish term. Do you have anything else to add, Robin Padilla?
-
And now, just to set EVERYBODY off, here's this from the mailing list, the Eskrima Digest:
==============
http://www.ugo.com/channels/filmtv/features/thechroniclesofriddick/vindiesel.
asp
From a Vin Diesel interview:
Q: What is your Riddick workout?
VIN: The Riddick workout started before I went up there. I was training with a UFC guy, Ultimate Fighting Championship fighter. I got up there two months early and started training in a fighting style called Kali, which originated in Spain and was then brought to the Philippines by Spanish traders. It's a fighting style that's just now beginning to catch wind. It's a fighting style that calls for ambidextrous, two-handed fighting. And that's what we studied. I went up two months early to learn this fighting style.
Apparently Vin Diesel studied Kali De Leon (see a clip at
http://www.kalideleon.com/techniques.html, on the right
side, labelled "Guro Jun in Kali demo for Vin Diesel", so
he _should_ know better...
- Marko
-
To be fair to Kali deLeon, in my limited experience with film studios, media coverage and actor interviews... they are not that keen on picking up any historical background on what they are learning for the film. I can definitely picture Diesel getting the facts confused and then who ever is doing the interview also fogging things up.
Unless the studio has someone from the Kali Deleon camp stating the above then we should give them the benefit of the doubt (not implying Crafty isn't, btw). It's happened to us in Sayoc Kali when the HUNTED came out.
It also didn't help when major magazines like Inside Kung Fu refused to accept any articles about Sayoc Kali or the HUNTED because they had "bigger Filipino martial arts names" they could interview or they have more than enough Kali coverage for 'Ecks versus Sever'." Even when we had the actor Benico Del Toro involved in the interview and Sayoc Kali was a regular advertiser in their mags - the editor at IKF wasn't aware of who we were.
So it's an uphill battle.
As per uphill battle..
<<On a side note, I heard the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) do not even venture in that region. And the NPA (the New People's Army) always have a hard time convincing the tribes up north of the virtues of Marx's theory.>>
During the Spanish occupation, the Spanish attempted around 64 expeditions into that region and were repelled each time. At one point, Spain sent in a special unit headed by a conquistador who had a reputation around that time and he was wounded and sent back several times as well.
As far as I can tell the term UKALI is used by several tribes, but as in all things Filipino... I would not bet against a probababilty that a difference in opinion on exactly what the term means to each specific individual or tribe...heh. Again, I don't want to say they use it in the same way the general MA public use terms like Karate or Arnis. It has deeper cultural roots which transcend the outside world's definition of MA. Neither do I want to fuel the "Arnis is the sanitized Kali" angle. I just believe it doesn't lead to anything productive.
--Rafael--
--------
----------
-------
---------
-
To learn more about the true essence of the Arts, Guro Jun continued to train under the best instructors. In addition to Grandmaster Ticsay, He has studied with GM Rosendo de Leon, Danny Marfal, Eliseo Javelosa and Ernesto Presas. Moreover, he received training from GM Manning Recto, a fighter whose notoriety is widely known for defeating Moses Padilla, the reigning stick-fighting champion of Hinirigan, Negros Occidental, Philippines. Maning Recto is considered a living legend to those who witnessed the match. Guro Jun has also trained with Guro Dan Inosanto and Tuhon Leo Gaje.
The last sentence is your 'Kali' connection. But, in their website you also have this:
Led by Guro Jun de Leon, a practitioner of traditional Filipino Martial Art specializing in Arnis de Mano over 35 years, Kali de Leon has provided quality instruction and training for many martial artists of various diciplines.
So, he also uses Arnis de Mano. The virtues of commercialism.
-
But, at this point he should now separate himself from the 1970s Kali propaganda that has infected his worldview of FMA. There is no such thing as the Mother Art, or 'original' pre-Spanish term. Do you have anything else to add, Robin Padilla?Rodger
Here's what else I would like to add Rodger.
You must liberate yourself from the Spanish Colonial Propaganda of denying the name Kali. Calling the arts Arnis, Arnes, Eskrima is fine. But if you are going dismiss 'KALI' as nothing more the 1970's propaganda, then you should also reocgnize the name Arnis as 1600's propaganda as well.
Here is an excerpt from Punong Guro Edgar Sulite's book
Secrets of Arnis. You may call it 'obsolete'. I call it Out of Print.
"Through the passage of time, this unique fighting art, though called by other names like escrima (for skrimish) or Kali (presumably from the Indonesian fencing word tjakalele) eventually was named Arnis. HIstorically it was a derivation from the word "arnes", colorful trappings on defensive armours used in Moro Moro plays. Moro Moro plays were staged then as socio-religious plays depicting the victory of Christian Spaniards over the Muslims. The play was a blunt reminder or a propaganda primarily used by the Spaniards in their promotion of Christainity in the country"
"Arnis actually was a misnomer but it eventually became the recognized name of this fighting art......the fighting art became known as Arnis De Mano and varied references are still there. Depending upon one's dialect:
Panandata (Tagaolg); kalirongan (Pangasinan); didja or kabaroan (Ilokano); pagkali-kali (Ibanga) siniwali (Pampanga); kaliradman or pagaradman (Visaya) etc. Of course its other famous names like eskrima, kali, estoque, estokada are still there and preferred by old masters. "
That's a lot of Kali!
Let it be known. Kali is the mother art and is just as valid as Arnes or Eskrima.
Kali is like many people from the Islands...There was a time when the people had names like Lapu Lapu, Soliman, and Kudarat but now we have names like Alfredo Garcia, Ferdinand Legazpi and Speedy Gonzales just as Kali has become known as Arnis.
-
But if you are going dismiss 'KALI' as nothing more the 1970's propaganda, then you should also reocgnize the name Arnis as 1600's propaganda as well.
What's the Arnis propaganda consist of exactly? Because there is none. No one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient Mother Art". It's just something the Tagalogs have come to name their art. No propaganda involved.
"Through the passage of time, this unique fighting art, though called by other names like escrima (for skrimish) or Kali (presumably from the Indonesian fencing word tjakalele) eventually was named Arnis.
So, now Kali is Indonesian? Do you even know what "tjakelele" is in Indonesian? Or where exactly this is in Indonesia? Can you answer this for us? I am waiting for you to say 'Kali' is the Hindu goddess of war as well.
As for Edgar Sulite's work on history, you need to ask yourself where he got his information. And why his colleagues in Kalis Ilustrisimo are now changing their take on 'Kali' and why they've abandoned it completely. You should have more sufficient information to draw on following the release of Rey Galang and Romeo Macapagal's book.
Let it be known. Kali is the mother art and is just as valid as Arnes or Eskrima.
Even the people here in Dog Brothers and Sayoc Kali, both who use the title 'Kali' have ceased to use that slogan. Please read Tuhon Rafael's posts again, regarding the "mother art" propaganda.
-
Out of curiosity, I looked beyond the island borders and tried to find any root words for ukali.
Interesting results:
From the Kamusi Project Swahili - English Dictionary.
Kali is the adjective of the word, Ukali.
Check out some of the various usages of this word and how their meaning reflect much of what KALI (as we know it) is all about. The various meanings are probably based on intent and tone.
UKALI is a noun meaning: fierceness, (kali adj), strength, bravery, cruelty, daring, fury, harshness, intensity (ukali wa jua)
Ukali is also used to describe sharpness (of a knife etc.).
In contrast, the Tarokoid language of Nigeria, ukali means: Medicine
Ukali is also found in the Hawaiian dictionary to mean: Following
In ancient Hawaiian sea faring sagas, their astronomy (Ka 'oihana kilokilo) mentions the planet Mercury as Ukali, because it was the Sun follower. However, although an ancient Polynesian word, I found no link to the martial art.
Tibetan meaning for Ukali: Upward, gradient
Now it is interesting that these are languages which pre date the printing press. They are also from tribal sources. I would like to state that these are just fragments of research which do not add or lessen the dialogue but are presented merely for interest.
There's the whole link of Sanskrit, arguably the oldest language as one of the root languages of Pre-Hispanic Filipinos, many ancient Filipino terms involving weaponry and battle are Sanskrit, but that's been covered in previous threads, and as stated above the Hindu Goddess of Destruction angle tends to deteriorate the dialogue.
The Igorots were NOT using Sanskrit terms for their weapons so that link doesn't apply here.
--Rafael--
----------
----------
----------
-----------
-
<<Kali is like many people from the Islands...There was a time when the people had names like Lapu Lapu, Soliman, and Kudarat but now we have names like Alfredo Garcia, Ferdinand Legazpi and Speedy Gonzales just as Kali has become known as Arnis.>>
Well SOME of us have both our Spanish and tribal names!
:)
--Rafael Kayanan--
----------------------
----------------------
----------------------
-
Rodger,
What's the Arnis propaganda consist of exactly? Because there is none. No one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient Mother Art". It's just something the Tagalogs have come to name their art. No propaganda involved.
The term Arnis came as a result of Spanish Propaganda. Please read my post regarding this matter again. Arnis is definitelt not a Tagalog word. And true, no one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient mother art". That is wrong. They know the right way is that Kali is the ancient mother art.
So, now Kali is Indonesian? Do you even know what "tjakelele" is in Indonesian? Or where exactly this is in Indonesia? Can you answer this for us? I am waiting for you to say 'Kali' is the Hindu goddess of war as well.
Yes. The inhabitants of Luzon, Visaya, and Mindanao are primarily from Indonesia. Naturally Kali's roots are Indonesian.
If you are waiting for me to say Kali is the Hindu Goddess of war as well, I will not because that is a different Kali. That Kali is the one you see in New Age Yoga Studios.
As far as "The Secrets of Kalis" Ilustrisimo book is concerned. I've read it. I read it the very day it came out in 2002. I do not recall the book mentioning anything about them calling it KaliS Ilustrisimo as a result of the topic we are discussing. Also, they changed the name to Kalis Ilustrisimo after Tatang had died. I am also inclined to believe the change to Kalis from Kali has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.
Tuhon Rafael, the information you researched regarding Ukali is very interesting. Ukali and kali are very popular words used by many different ethnic tribes.
Well SOME of us have both our Spanish and tribal names!
Yes! And I sincerely hope we preserve the name of Kali just as we preserve those tribal names. Harmony among names for the arts is very possible. We just have to accept that Kali is the mother art.
-
Sorry for screwing up the quotes in that previous post. Im still learning how to use this forum.
-
Woof All:
BEGIN
"Even the people here in Dog Brothers and Sayoc Kali, both who use the title 'Kali' have ceased to use that slogan. Please read Tuhon Rafael's posts again, regarding the "mother art" propaganda."
END
I'll leave it to Tuhon Raf's capable hands to speak for Sayoc, but concerning us this statement is not correct. We have NEVER used the NAME Kali in connection with assertions of mother art.
Concerning Indonesian origins of the term (or was it the Indonesian origins of the Art?) GM Largusa of Villabrille Kali asserts this in his appearance in our video "The Grandfathers Speak".
What do the scholars out there (this certainly excludes me) have to say about PG Sulite's words quoted above? As a student of his I always found him to be thoughtful and precise with his words as well as his Art.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
-
According to the Sayocs it was a line that did not originate with them but had heard the line used from a variety of older well know ARNIS instructors that came FROM the Philippines. Some still live there. Some do NOT use the word KALI but did use the "Kali is the Mother Art" perspective. Perhaps some of the Sayocs have used that line before twenty years ago but today the focus is about the future. We try to stay away from this particular fire because there's lots of drybrush around and all it does is burn everyone.
Therefore, in Sayoc Kali we've pretty much left it open to interpretation since our contention is that the art of SURVIVAL came from the "Blood of the Nation", our ancestors so no single term is going to encompass the whole thing. We'd change "Sayoc Kali" in a heartbeat if it no longer applied.
Tuhon Chris Sayoc, Sr. has always stressed that the 'martial arts' envelops everything we do and don't do. It is about survival of any situation. When you drive you are doing Sayoc training, when you speak, when you listen, when you take lessons from others, when you teach.. no matter what you do... think of how it relates to your survival, how it feeds your being. That is the blood of the nation because that is how they survived. It's one lesson that is repeated often in our history. It also relates to how the tribes like the Igorots do not have a name of some martial art, all part of survival and living.. it's what they do.
--Rafael--
---------
---------
--------
------
-
Arnis is definitelt not a Tagalog word. And true, no one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient mother art". That is wrong. They know the right way is that Kali is the ancient mother art.
No one ever said Arnis was Tagalog, just that Tagalogs have come to use this term.
As far as the last sentence, you still haven't answered four basic questions we're asking, so that claim has no meat:
1. What region in the Philippines is Kali used and practiced?
2. Which tribe, or language group practices Kali?
3. If you can answer 1 and 2, does this group or groups use the title Kali to mean the original art?
4. What is a the practioner of Kali called?
Just four questions. And no they are not in Mr. Sulite's book.
-
I'll leave it to Tuhon Raf's capable hands to speak for Sayoc, but concerning us this statement is not correct. We have NEVER used the NAME Kali in connection with assertions of mother art.
Sorry, about that Guro Crafty... What I meant was that Dog Brothers got the term from two individuals, namely Dan Inosanto, who got it from Largusa and Villabrille, and also, GT Leo Gaje. And they're the ones who assert the 'mother art' rhetoric. This same rhetoric has lead to Robin Padilla's brain.
-
Therefore, in Sayoc Kali we've pretty much left it open to interpretation since our contention is that the art of SURVIVAL came from the "Blood of the Nation", our ancestors so no single term is going to encompass the whole thing.
A most reasonable stance. If you think about it, Filipinos are pretty open to new terms, and made up terms. No one will contend the use of this term KALI, if people just say, 'this is the name of our art' or 'we practice Kali, period'. But, when people go around saying things like "Kali is the ancient mother art", "Filipinos have called their fighting arts Kali since time began", or that "Arnis and Eskrima are the 'sanitized' versions of Kali", then more than likely people will react.
They'll throw out simple questions like the ones above. And people like Robin Padilla will have no choice, but to do a little tap dance.
-
On another note... Mr. Rey Galang's book about Yambao is now available on their site: www.bakbakan.com
And the updated version of Mr. Sulite's "Master of Arnis, Kali, and Eskrima", renamed "Warrior Arts of the Philippines" will be available this October.
and here's a little piece of trivia about Mr. Sulite's old work: Edgar Sulite is from Leyte, he is Bisaya. The two teachers he credits for his art (LAMECO) are Caballero of Eskrima de Campo and Antonio Ilustrisimo. Both are from Cebu, both are Bisaya, both used Eskrima. Of the 40 (it's been awhile since I read the book) or so Masters featured in the book, guess how many are Bisaya and how many use Eskrima?
Makes one wonder where Mr. Edgar Sulite got wind of the whole 'Kali' usage and why he switch to this?
But, the two books should be a good read.
-
In addition to the 'ukali' finds, you might find the article below interesting:
http://www.silvertorch.com/its%20a%20fact/various-2.htm
TRINIDAD?S KALINDA STICKFIGHTS
The Trinidad stick fight called kalinda (or kalenda) survives mainly as a dance form ? an artistic representation of the real thing. The real thing of the nineteenth century was a fearsome activity that should forever remain in the past.
It is believed that kalinda began around 1860 when the freed slaves organized themselves into competing bands and held performances. Men, women and children gathered to sing, dance and be entertained by stick fights.
The aim of each stick fighter was to deliver a blow that would hit the opponent on the body - any part above the waist - hard enough to fell him to the ground. Blows were usually aimed at the head and damage to the skull was a very common occurrence in stick fighting.
The rules of the game were few. Hitting ?under the belt? or striking a player when he fell or was forced to kneel was an infringement. Again, as long as a player's skull was cut he had to retire and drain the blood into the "blood hole", a hollow made for this purpose in the ground in the center of the fighting ring.
The stick used was between three and four feet long and was about seven-eighths of an inch in diameter. It was made of cog-wood, the wood of the yellow poui tree or even the sour guava.
There were secret formulas for cutting the wood and preparing a stick. One method was to cut a stick when ?the moon was weak" and the night was dark. The bark was then peeled off and the stick was pushed into the heart of a rotting banana tree trunk and left there for seven days and seven nights. It was then taken out, covered with tallow, and buried in a manure heap where it "cured" for fourteen days. After this, the stick was removed and was bent and rolled. It was then concealed in a dark place for seven more days before it was considered ready for use.
The stick men gave their weapons frightful names like "Tamer", and "Groaning".
Fighters were colorfully dressed. Some shaved their heads clean and covered them with small iron pots over which head cloths were tied, and crowns fitted. A long-sleeved shirt of silk carried a breastplate of metal or of embossed leather, decorated with gilded buttons. Around the waist some fighters tied a ribbon or wide sash, usually red in color. The long trousers were decorated with rows of colored buttons. Alpargatas or flat shoes completed the outfit. The fighters tied red handkerchiefs around the wrists, and often a long ribbon corresponding to the band's colors was tied across the shoulders and allowed to hang down in a long tassel.
Every band had a chantwell (or shantwell). He was a singer who praised and encouraged his own band and ridiculed the stick fighters of the competing band.
Over time, stick-fighting tournaments became features of the major holidays, chiefly Easter Monday, August First and Christmas Day. Each village had its square where visiting challengers clashed with local kings.
Shades of kalinda continue into contemporary Trinidad. Before Carnival each year, when the shantwells rehearsed, tenement dwellers joined in the Kalinda songs. In these backyards with fantastic names like "Hell Yard", "Toll Gate", "Behind the Bridge", "Concrete Yard", "Mafoombo Yard", the earliest carisoes (later, calypsos) were sung.
The matadors, bad-johns, stickmen, prostitutes, drummers and the singers and the dancers performed at these gatherings. Each yard had its "Kalinda King" who led his band. Each yard developed its own warriors, champions and experts.
It was from this highly organized folk institution that the calypso emerged, and today this is kalinda's chief claim to fame. The bloody stick fights have gone ? gone the way of the equally violent (perhaps more violent) duel in Europe and America.
Today kalinda may be seen as choreographed performances on- or off-stage, in which teams of fighters compete against each other. Such performances often include much singing and dancing. They still contain elements of the original, however, and stick-wielding performers must remain extremely careful, lest they injure one another.
And here's another one. It's categorized as 'stick-fighting' without mention of blades.
http://guazabara.com/african.htm
The introduction of the African slaves into the islands resulted in some distinct changes in the Taino fighting system. The first was that many of the Spanish soldiers would not involve themselves in direct conflicts with the Taino. They instead preferred to have their African slaves or Native "Mansos" (tame Indian's or Indian's who fought on the side of the Spanish) do the fighting for them. The slaves were not equipped with swords and frequently fought with weapons that were as crude as those employed by the Taino. This resulted in direct combat, and the Taino could move in on the slave aggressors without worrying about avoiding a blade.
Many of the Spanish who inhabited the coastal regions of Puerto Rico avoided the inner part of the island due to the concentration of free hostile Taino that inhabited the jungle-dense mountains. African slaves would flee into this area preferring death in an unknown land to bondage. This was the second influence in early Guazabara history. Some of the slaves who escaped and avoided capture found their way to the hidden Taino encampments and were immediately accepted into the tribes. The Taino believed that aiding the escapees would add to their own population and reduce the amount of slaves that were willing to fight for the Spanish. The Taino referred to these men and women as Cimmaron. These warriors would be referred to by the Spanish as Black Taino's. The Cimmaron may have directly contributed to bringing Kalenda stick fighting from Africa to the Caribbean, this type of fighting spread to the lower Antilles and later to the mainland.
It is unknown what African tribe contributed the most to Guazabara, but it may have been those from the Congo region such as the Mandinga, Mende, Dohomey or Yoruba as their food, language and religion (Santeria) had the strongest influence over the Caribbean Islands and its people.
-
Some interesting posts here and I will stand aside while the historians do their thing. I would however like to address this point:
BEGIN
I'll leave it to Tuhon Raf's capable hands to speak for Sayoc, but concerning us this statement is not correct. We have NEVER used the NAME Kali in connection with assertions of "mother art".
Sorry, about that Guro Crafty... What I meant was that Dog Brothers got the term from two individuals, namely Dan Inosanto, who got it from Largusa and Villabrille, and also, GT Leo Gaje. And they're the ones who assert the 'mother art' rhetoric.
END
Guro Inosanto also received the term from Manong Juan LaCoste. JLC was murdered in 1973 IIRC at the age of 89, which would mean he was born around 1884. The story of his travels in the Philippines is fairly well known, and for him the term Kali was quite valid. In that he was Guro Inosanto's principal FMA teacher, I would give him principal credit for Guro I's use of the term Kali.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
-
Some interesting posts here and I will stand aside while the historians do their thing. I would however like to address this point:
BEGIN
I'll leave it to Tuhon Raf's capable hands to speak for Sayoc, but concerning us this statement is not correct. We have NEVER used the NAME Kali in connection with assertions of "mother art".
Sorry, about that Guro Crafty... What I meant was that Dog Brothers got the term from two individuals, namely Dan Inosanto, who got it from Largusa and Villabrille, and also, GT Leo Gaje. And they're the ones who assert the 'mother art' rhetoric.
END
Guro Inosanto also received the term from Manong Juan LaCoste. JLC was murdered in 1973 IIRC at the age of 89, which would mean he was born around 1884. The story of his travels in the Philippines is fairly well known, and for him the term Kali was quite valid. In that he was Guro Inosanto's principal FMA teacher, I would give him principal credit for Guro I's use of the term Kali.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
To show a counter point here's a post in another forum
Lacoste Inosanto connection
From: Doug
Remote Name: 80.41.222.247
Comments
Hi,
Please excuse me if this question falls outside the boudaries of this forum.
Although I don't train in JKD now, there was a time when I did - from '88 until '94. Since then I have concerntrated primarily on the FMA. I was at a seminar a few years ago conducted by a well respected practitioner and researcher in the FMA. We got talking about all the misconceptions surrounding the term "Kali" etc and he mentioned that he was told by another well known face in the art who was also close to John Lacoste and Dan Inosanto, that although they may have known each other for so many years, the time Inosanto spent under his tuition was minimal. I found this strange because Inosanto has always cited him as one of the biggest influences on his FMA, to such an extent that he named his system after him.
This is a question I've posted on another forum but without much response. Can anyone here shed some light on this contradiction?
Thanks in advance
Doug
Last changed: June 18, 2004
-
BEGIN
I was at a seminar a few years ago conducted by a well respected practitioner and researcher in the FMA. We got talking about all the misconceptions surrounding the term "Kali" etc and he mentioned that he was told by another well known face in the art who was also close to John Lacoste and Dan Inosanto, that although they may have known each other for so many years, the time Inosanto spent under his tuition (sic) was minimal. I found this strange because Inosanto has always cited him as one of the biggest influences on his FMA, to such an extent that he named his system after him.
This is a question I've posted on another forum but without much response. Can anyone here shed some light on this contradiction?
END
Let's see: We have "Doug" (no last name) relaying hearsay from "a well respected practitioner and researcher in the FMA" who was relaying hearsay from "a well known face in the art". :? This sounds more like a children's game of "telephone" and I confess that it eludes me why it should be taken seriously. :P If someone has something to say, he should be man enough to put his name to it.
Crafty Dog
-
Rodger,
BEGIN
"and here's a little piece of trivia about Mr. Sulite's old work: Edgar Sulite is from Leyte, he is Bisaya. The two teachers he credits for his art (LAMECO) are Caballero of Eskrima de Campo and Antonio Ilustrisimo. Both are from Cebu, both are Bisaya, both used Eskrima. Of the 40 (it's been awhile since I read the book) or so Masters featured in the book, guess how many are Bisaya and how many use Eskrima?"
END
Yes. Both Caballero and Ilustrisimo called their art Eskrima. However, Ilustrisimo's section in the "Masters of Arnis Kali and Eskrima" is the only one called Kali, the mother of Arnis and Eskrima.
BEGIN:
"Makes one wonder where Mr. Edgar Sulite got wind of the whole 'Kali' usage and why he switch to this? "
END
From my readings I would say Punong Guro Edgar probably learned of Kali, the mother art from Antonio Ilustrisimo.
BEGIN:
"1. What region in the Philippines is Kali used and practiced?
2. Which tribe, or language group practices Kali?
3. If you can answer 1 and 2, does this group or groups use the title Kali to mean the original art?
4. What is a the practioner of Kali called? "
END
1. Kali, the mother art is used and practice throughout all of the Philippines.
2. Everyone who picks up a stick in the name of Arnis or Eskrima is essentially practicing Kali, the mother art even if they don't know, deny or refuse to acknowledge it.
3. Some people have acceptd Kali as the name of the Mother art while some still call it Arnis or Eskrima.
4. A practicioner of Kali is called a Mandirigma, Arnistador, Eskrimador, Kalista, Dogbrother, FMA'er, Martial Artist etc.
BEGIN:
"A most reasonable stance. If you think about it, Filipinos are pretty open to new terms, and made up terms."
END
If you think about it, this is probably how Arnis ended up replacing Kali. But let us be thankful for men like Floro Villabrille, Antonio Ilustrisimo, Edgar Sulite and Dan Inosanto for their efforts in preserving Kali and teaching us that this is the mother art with roots in pre Hispanic times.
Had it not been for their efforts Kali may very well have been rendered extinct.
BEGIN:
"Let's see: We have "Doug" (no last name) relaying hearsay from "a well respected practitioner and researcher in the FMA" who was relaying hearsay from "a well known face in the art".
END
I don't know too much about Guro Dan's relationship with Manong Juan Lacoste. If anybody here would know it would be Guro Crafty. But even if Guro Dan studied Lacoste Kali for a minimal amount of time which is doubtful, you can learn from your teacher that Kali is the mother art in as much time as it takes to say it.
But it sounds like Doug is one of those crazy Jeet Kune Do guys who like to player hate on Guro Dan.
[/quote]
-
http://www.realfighting.com/issue7/romyframe.html
"Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years. Tony Diego (the present head of the Ilustrisimo system) and I, after the research mentioned, decided that "Kalis" is the more appropriate word because it means "sword" and would then mean the "Sword of Ilustrisimo." The name has not been formally registered except on a website but we had decided on this even when Tatang was still active and alive."
Mr. Romy Macapagal is one of the FMA community's most qualified historian/practitioner. He is one of the seniors of Kalis Ilustrisimo. If you remember Antonio Ilustrisimo's first students were Tony Diego and Yuli Romo, both of whom are also from Cebu.
In the book "Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo", the relationship between Antonio Ilustrisimo and Floro Villabrille (also from Cebu) is made clear. Floro Villabrille was a student under Ilustrisimo. It's funny how the Villabrille clan overlooked this fact, choosing instead the more dramatic story of the Blind Princess.
This connection is important because if you really look back there are only 4 individuals that promoted Kali as "the Mother art" in the US.
1. Floro Villabrille (from Cebu)
2. Ben Largusa (from Hawaii)
3. Dan Inosanto (from Stockton)
4. Leo Gaje (from Negros)
As far as 'Kali' in the U.S. is concerned, you can pretty much draw a connecting line from the first guy to the last. Everyone else who uses 'Kali' in the US, can draw a line to atleast one of the above names.
So, if the first guy on the list, has a rather shady story about how he came to use 'Kali', as per the findings in "the Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo", then it makes the whole propaganda suspect automatically.
Ilustrisimo's section in the "Masters of Arnis Kali and Eskrima" is the only one called Kali, the mother of Arnis and Eskrima. From my readings I would say Punong Guro Edgar probably learned of Kali, the mother art from Antonio Ilustrisimo.
That's because when Mr. Sulite's book was published, Antonio Ilustrisimo's group was using 'Kali'. They were using Kali at the insistence of GT Leo Gaje, again I refer you to the list of 4 names above. Does this help you connect everything?
-
1. Kali, the mother art is used and practice throughout all of the Philippines.
Where exactly? Can you give us specific regions?
2. Everyone who picks up a stick in the name of Arnis or Eskrima is essentially practicing Kali, the mother art even if they don't know, deny or refuse to acknowledge it.
Arnisadors and Eskrimadors disagree.
3. Some people have acceptd Kali as the name of the Mother art while some still call it Arnis or Eskrima.
Filipinos who have never left the Philippines? and who have never trained with anyone of the 4 names above?
4. A practicioner of Kali is called a Mandirigma, Arnistador, Eskrimador, Kalista, Dogbrother, FMA'er, Martial Artist etc.
Wrong again, you're essentializing. Kalista? lol... If the purpose of using Kali is to rid yourself of 'Spanish colonial mentality' and because 'Kali is pre-Spanish', then why conjugate Kali as if it was a Spanish/European word?
Still nothing...
-
<<This connection is important because if you really look back there are only 4 individuals that promoted Kali as "the Mother art" in the US.
1. Floro Villabrille (from Cebu)
2. Ben Largusa (from Hawaii)
3. Dan Inosanto (from Stockton)
4. Leo Gaje (from Negros)
As far as 'Kali' in the U.S. is concerned, you can pretty much draw a connecting line from the first guy to the last. Everyone else who uses 'Kali' in the US, can draw a line to atleast one of the above names. >>
Rodger,
As I stated above Tuhon Sayoc also heard it from a couple of Arnis/Eskrima instructors in the 70's. Both from VERY well known systems.
They may have heard it from one of the four above but there was no open indication of that. So it could still possibly lead credence to your perspective.
Since this leads to more heresay, I'd rather keep their names under wraps until someone from their camp speaks up for them.
--Rafael--
---------
--------
--------
-------
-
Some interesting posts here and I will stand aside while the historians do their thing. I would however like to address this point:
Guro Inosanto also received the term from Manong Juan LaCoste. JLC was murdered in 1973 IIRC at the age of 89, which would mean he was born around 1884. The story of his travels in the Philippines is fairly well known, and for him the term Kali was quite valid. In that he was Guro Inosanto's principal FMA teacher, I would give him principal credit for Guro I's use of the term Kali.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
Guru Crafty,
Do the best of your knowledge, did manong Juan LaCoste use 'Kali' for the art he practiced? or Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned? manong Juan LaCoste was Bisaya, they say he was from Cebu, so the fact that he used 'Kali' for his art is very interesting.
In addition to the big 4 names above, Mr. Mirafuerte of the 1957 book and Mr. LaCoste, are two individuals that need to be looked into further.
-
As I stated above Tuhon Sayoc also heard it from a couple of Arnis/Eskrima instructors in the 70's. Both from VERY well known systems.
They may have heard it from one of the four above but there was no open indication of that. So it could still possibly lead credence to your perspective.
Since this leads to more heresay, I'd rather keep their names under wraps until someone from their camp speaks up for them.
--Rafael--
Tuhon Rafael,
I absolutely respect your decision, but can you say if these Arnis/Eskrima instructors from the 70s are from the Philippines, or based in the Philippines?
-
<<can you say if these Arnis/Eskrima instructors from the 70s are from the Philippines, or based in the Philippines?>>
Well known Filipinos who at the time they met the Sayocs were living in the Philippines and were visiting the states. Different systems but known for calling their arts, Arnis and/or Eskrima. One of them is still living in the Philippines and I believe never lived in the states. Again they may have heard the phrase from the four listed above but I don't have enough info to make that call.
--Rafael--
-------
-------
--------
------
-
One of them is still living in the Philippines and I believe never lived in the states. Again they may have heard the phrase from the four listed above but I don't have enough info to make that call.
I've met quite a few Filipinos who use "Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali", as a 'catch all' phrase for their school. Atty. Dionisio Canete has been known to use the phrase. But, ask him about 'Kali' in Bisaya, and he'll just chuckle and say something like 'if that's what they use outside, won't hurt us to use it to'.
This attitude and the whole 'arbitrary-ness' of these titles is important to consider how people in the Philippines start using 'Kali' (w/ the aforementioned propanda). It was under the same attitude that Antonio Ilustrisimo and his group also began to use 'Kali'.
-
Woof All:
BEGIN
Guru Crafty,
To the best of your knowledge, did manong Juan LaCoste use 'Kali' for the art he practiced? or Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned? manong Juan LaCoste was Bisaya, they say he was from Cebu, so the fact that he used 'Kali' for his art is very interesting.
In addition to the big 4 names above, Mr. Mirafuerte of the 1957 book and Mr. LaCoste, are two individuals that need to be looked into further.
END
You are right to use the phrase "To the best of your knowledge" when dealing with me. I am a highly unreliable conduit of knowledge in these matters. As I have related previously elsewhere, during one of the periodic outbreaks of the JKD wars back in the 1980s in a guest column to Inside Kung Fu, I got something wrong that led to a lot of heat on Guro I. It was not until 3 or 4 years later that he gently said something in passing (said so gently I almost missed it) that led me to ask him a question that allowed him to set me straight.
You are also right to ask "Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned?" As a typical clueless American it has taken many years for me to begin to appreciate that there seems to be a cultural difference in Filipino and American culture when it comes to handling differences. Often, the Filipino will 'agree' so as to be 'polite' and the American will openly state his difference. Obviously, Filipinos will often disagree quite vigorously too and I readily admit to not having figured out criteria to predict whether the response will be polite pretense of agreement or passionate ire :?
IIRC the order of Guro Inonsanto's studies, his studies with Manong LaCoste well preceded his training with Largusa and Villabrille.
IIRC Manong LaCoste, as I mentioned in a recent post here, was unusually well-travelled throughout the Philippine archipelago and was unusually diverse in his training-- including being accepted into training with Muslims in the south. It was out of this diverse training that he came to use the world Kali with Guro Inosanto.
But PLEASE do not take my word for any of this. Remember, I am a highly unreliable conduit. Guro Inosanto is out there on seminars well over 40 weekends a year. Why not ask him? Do know however, that he can have both a highly developed sense of wanting people to feel at ease as well as a desire to avoid conflict in such matters with vexatious persons.
Concerning the latter point, given what I have seen him deal with over the years, he has my understanding, my sympathy and my deepest respect.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
[/img]
-
<<I've met quite a few Filipinos who use "Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali", as a 'catch all' phrase for their school. Atty. Dionisio Canete has been known to use the phrase. But, ask him about 'Kali' in Bisaya, and he'll just chuckle and say something like 'if that's what they use outside, won't hurt us to use it to'. >>
Just a note Rodger... the phrase I was refering to was the "Mother Art" one not the one above since that was the phrase that is causing most of the heat between folks.
--Rafael--
---------
-----------
--------
--------
-
Rodger,
Great Link! Thanks!
Kali is the mother art.
-
Kali is the mother art.
OK... :roll:
-
http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa051202a.htm
"Who is Kali?
Kali is the fearful and ferocious form of the mother goddess Durga. She assumed the form of a powerful goddess and became popular with the composition of the Devi Mahatmya, a text of the 5th - 6th century AD. Here she is depicted as having born from the brow of Goddess Durga during one of her battles with the evil forces. As the legend goes, in the battle, Kali was so much involved in the killing spree that she got carried away and began destroying everything in sight. To stop her, Lord Shiva threw himself under her feet. Shocked at this sight, Kali stuck out her tongue in astonishment, and put an end to her homicidal rampage. Hence the common image of Kali shows her in her m?l?e mood, standing with one foot on Shiva's chest, with her enormous tongue stuck out.
The Fearful Symmetry
Kali is represented with perhaps the fiercest features amongst all the world's deities. She has four arms, with a sword in one hand and the head of a demon in another."
Could it be that after the Spanish invading the islands and tried to impose Christianity on them that they'd invoke such a Goddess of Destruction onto their very krisis and other swords?
Just food for thought but it also goes along with the superstition of anting anting.
If a people could wish good things onto charms why not the Mother Goddess of Destruction onto their weapons?
Anyhow, hope this sheds some light onto a situation that'll probably not ever find rest due to the fact that history is only as certain as its tellers.
Why can't we just all get along and agree that Kali generally refers to the sworded arts that developed after metalurgy arrived.
Arnis developed when the "lightning sticks" as the Spanish referred to them - were brought to the Spanish court and the escrimadores were brought before the King to demonstrate their art while wearing the protective garments or "arnes" which the Spaniards had used for fencing.
Thus, the sport of Arnis.
And escrima - to fence with sticks, is the non-bladed art - which involves 360 points of the circumference with which to hit, as well as the top and the bottom of the stick - as opposed to the sword art which generally includes only the point and the blade - ok, if you want to hit with the butt of the sword or parry and clear with the side or the backside of the blade you can throw those in too - but you get the picture.
What is best?
Maybe we should all just go ask Conan? :-) just kidding.
But regardless of what we agree to call it - kali, escrima, arnis or others.
Heck, it's all martial arts - arts dealing with war - and these - filipino arts.
What's really interested is how did we get here from the poster's original question?
Anyhow, I have never seen a real filipino stick, knife, or sword fight.
I think that's what he meant.
-
Could it be that after the Spanish invading the islands and tried to impose Christianity on them that they'd invoke such a Goddess of Destruction onto their very krisis and other swords? Just food for thought but it also goes along with the superstition of anting anting. If a people could wish good things onto charms why not the Mother Goddess of Destruction onto their weapons?
This would make sense if there was a region, island, or town in the Philippines that was Hindu or still is Hindu.
Why can't we just all get along and agree that Kali generally refers to the sworded arts that developed after metalurgy arrived.
Leo Giron, and others who use Eskrima and Arnis, used the blade in WWII. They didn't call their art Kali. The Filipino muslims who use the Kampilan and Barong swords do not use Kali.
Arnis developed when the "lightning sticks" as the Spanish referred to them - were brought to the Spanish court and the escrimadores were brought before the King to demonstrate their art while wearing the protective garments or "arnes" which the Spaniards had used for fencing. Thus, the sport of Arnis.
Leo Giron wouldn't categorize his art as a mere sport.
And escrima - to fence with sticks, is the non-bladed art - which involves 360 points of the circumference with which to hit, as well as the top and the bottom of the stick - as opposed to the sword art which generally includes only the point and the blade - ok, if you want to hit with the butt of the sword or parry and clear with the side or the backside of the blade you can throw those in too - but you get the picture.
Eskrima was taken from the Spanish esgrima, which just means to fence (not fence with sticks). To say, "non-bladed art" is again wrong since in WWII the people who used 'Eskrima' used blades. If you train with those who use Eskrima and Arnis in the Philippines, you'd realize that they still do use blades, either long or short.
The categorization of Kali as the more deadly bladed art, compared to the less deadly arts of Arnis and Eskrima, since they only use sticks in a sport context is detrimental to the over all picture of FMA.
The Kali propaganda has many flaws. When it is promoted as 'the mother art' or 'the bladed art', you are missing the reality of Filipino martial arts.
Kali is not the lesser art, or is it the better art. When we say the propaganda behind Kali is flawed, it just means historically, and culturally, Kali does not exist in the Philippines (again, if it does, where does it exist in the Philippines?).
All arts that begin with weapons in the Philippines, train in blades. They just do this in varying degrees, with most preferring the short blade, while the Filipinos who still live in rural areas prefer the longer blades. They don't call it Kali.
-
Woof All:
Back when in this thread I was posting about Guro Inosanto and Manong LaCoste and LaCoste as a source for him of Kali, I emailed him to correct me if I had misstated anything. His reply, quoted here with permission:
BEGIN
Marc:
Your reply is fine. Kali probably had many names in ancient times before the coming of the Spanish in the Philippines. Such as Kalirogan. Kaliradman. Kali-Kali and Pagkalikali to name a few.
END
Woof,
Crafty Dog
-
Woof All:
Back when in this thread I was posting about Guro Inosanto and Manong LaCoste and LaCoste as a source for him of Kali, I emailed him to correct me if I had misstated anything. His reply, quoted here with permission:
BEGIN
Marc:
Your reply is fine. Kali probably had many names in ancient times before the coming of the Spanish in the Philippines. Such as Kalirogan. Kaliradman. Kali-Kali and Pagkalikali to name a few.
END
Woof,
Crafty Dog
[/size]
Thank you for sharing Mr. Inosanto's views here.
I have a few follow up questions, if you don't mind:
1. Kalirongan is used in Luzon, I still have not met anyone who uses Kaliradman, although this is said to be Bisaya (maybe it is still used, maybe not). But, can you tell us where 'Kali-Kali' or 'pagKaliKali' is used? ('pag' in Tagalog and Bisaya is the prefix for verbs).
The 'KaliKalihan" festival in the island of Negros was an invention of GT Leo Gaje in the early 1980s. 'pagKaliKali' might just be this also (I am not sure, this is why I'm asking).
2. Do these words, Kalirongan, Kaliradman, Kali-Kali, pagKaliKali, carry the same "ancient mother art" or only "bladed art" rhetoric involved with the Kali used in the US? or, are they more similar to Eskrima and Arnis?
3. Do these words carry any propaganda element at all, like the Kali of America?
-
A cultural note:
Kaliskis, Kalibangan, Kalinog, Kalipay, Kalinaw, Kaligo, Kaliwat, Kalimot, etc. etc.
Those are just a few words in Tagalog, Bisaya, and Ilongo that have Kali as the first two syllables. Ka- is a common prefix in Filipino languages.
-
Just an addition to the 'kali' sounding words.
On an ancient tombstone in Bud Agad, there is an inscription written in Arabic that reads, "KALIMAH" which means "Profession of the Faith" page 206 MUSLIMS IN THE PHILIPPINES.
--Rafael--
---------
--------
----------
----------
-
Woof Rodger:
Please forgive me but I have zero interest in investing more of my time with Guro Inosanto with this.
My original post (please feel free to go back and find it and the surrounding posts as well) merely stated my understanding of where Guro Inosanto got his use of the term-- that it included Manong John LaCoste. Manong LaCoste was a widely travelled man who lived until he was murdered in 1973 at the age of 89. Figure out for yourself when he was born and contemplate how much language has changed since his youth in the various languages that he encountered in his travels and how little record there is of them during these years. I am, ahem, only 52 :shock: and I note that the terms of my youth have come and gone in a far more recorded time (our "revoultion" was televised after all) --and its groovy.
I appreciate that for those who require definitive provable answers that this lack of certainty can be frustrating, but well, life can be like that.
If you ever meet Guro I. and wish to use your time with him discussing this further, then by all means be my guest.
As for me, I'm out. We use "Kali in America" and we do not do "propaganda".
Have a nice day.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
-
In the Sultanate of Sulu, the term KALI exists, it means the same as the chief Qadi and he is called the TUAN KALI.
The title is given by the Sultan who is held as the highest rank over all others due to his placement in their culture and religion. The Sultan was given this right upon the old agreement between the first Sultan and the ancient Moros.
So the word KALI exists in the islands. It means, "ecclesiastical official" from the writings by Cesar Adib Majul.
--Rafael--
---------
--------
----------
-
Rodger,
BEGIN
"1. Kalirongan is used in Luzon, I still have not met anyone who uses Kaliradman, although this is said to be Bisaya (maybe it is still used, maybe not). But, can you tell us where 'Kali-Kali' or 'pagKaliKali' is used? ('pag' in Tagalog and Bisaya is the prefix for verbs)"
END
One of my previous posts in this thread describes which indigineous tribe uses 'Kali-Kali' and 'pagkalikali'.
I got these information from 'Secrets of Arnis'. Like Lacoste, Edgar Sulite had travelled throughout the islands and learned from many people. Among his travels he learned that Kali is the mother art and published it in his book.
BEGIN
"Leo Giron wouldn't categorize his art as a mere sport. "
END
Who in FMA wants to categorize their art as sport? Kali, the mother art, and Arnis and Eskrima, her bastard Spanish children are all combative. However as time passed some of them became dance or sport.
I watched a dogbrothers movie and Leo Giron specifically expresses his interest in turning the art into a sport.
BEGIN
"3. Do these words carry any propaganda element at all, like the Kali of America?"
END
In Arnis Eskrima and Kali history, there is always propaganda. Propaganda to promote Christianity, to promote the Spanish Victory over Soliman in Luzon, Propaganda that my kung fu is better than your kung fu because we have adopted judo throws into our system etc.
BEGIN
"Eskrima was taken from the Spanish esgrima, which just means to fence (not fence with sticks). To say, "non-bladed art" is again wrong since in WWII the people who used 'Eskrima' used blades. If you train with those who use Eskrima and Arnis in the Philippines, you'd realize that they still do use blades, either long or short. "
END
Also remember that the Spanish outlawed bladed arts among the indios. So the locals, wanting to please the Spanish practiced their art with sticks and it was renamed Eskrima for fencing, or arnes based on the armor.
-
BEGIN
Who in FMA wants to categorize their art as sport? Kali, the mother art, and Arnis and Eskrima, her bastard Spanish children are all combative. However as time passed some of them became dance or sport.
I watched a dogbrothers movie and Leo Giron specifically expresses his interest in turning the art into a sport.
END
That would be the video "The Grandfathers Speak" with which we open the series "Dog Brothers Martial Arts". My purpose was to begin the series showing respect to some of the grandfathers who brought the Art to us here in America.
IIRC, we begin the video with GM Giron saying "Eskrima is the science of bolo knife fighting, but we use sticks so nobody gets killed."
Again IIRC his comments about turning the Art into a sport were in the context of operating in America without getting shut down. Few men appreciated the martial realities as deeply as GM Giron.
Forgive me the advertising, but I would not be worthy of my sobriquet if I failed to mention that we are in the process of converting our videos to DVD and look to have goodies in each DVD not present in the video version. For the "Grandfathers" conversion I'm thinking to use a goodly portion of a 35 minute interview I did with GM Giron is his training hall in the basement of his house.
I admired this man greatly and treasure the occasions I had with him.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
-
In relation to the first post and in no relation to any of the sub topics mentioned in this post I think the closest thing I have seen to somewhat of a Kali ?fight was with a pool stick. In this situation the kid had no clue what to do but instinct directed him on how to swing and he clocked his opponent at least twice before the stick broke and the other guy charged him taking it to the ground. Obviously the chances of two people just happening to have two pairs of sticks to fight with are slim to none and all of the training used in Kali can be relayed down any type of object, from beer bottles to bar stools all is relevant.
-
In Arnis Eskrima and Kali history, there is always propaganda. Propaganda to promote Christianity, to promote the Spanish Victory over Soliman in Luzon, Propaganda that my kung fu is better than your kung fu because we have adopted judo throws into our system etc.
Actually, I was just referring to two specific rhetorical phrases, "Kali is the art of the blade" and "Kali is the mother art". The "mother art" propaganda has no basis (evidence).
And as we can see, Kali being the art of the blade, also has no basis, since every art in the Philippines is blade oriented, or atleast train with blades.
Now, it is expected in martial arts that lesser people will go around comparing each others' arts. We are not comparing arts here, but rather speaking and arguing historically, and culturally. And in this regard, Eskrima and Arnis are devoid of propaganda.
It is true that words come and go, but to say "kali is the mother art and is found in the philippines", then be at a completely lost to support that claim is questionable. If the word, with the definition it has been given (not its muslim/arabic sounding cognate), does not exist in the Philippines now within a span of 50 to 100 years, we must hold this word (with its meaning) suspect.
Words like Anting-Anting, Hilot, and others are old Filipino words, which only a select few in the Philippines either possess or practice, yet these words still survive throughout the Philippines. Why hasn't Kali (again, with the meaning you've given it) survived?
-
Rodger:
You seem to speak English very well, yet for some reason my words are not registering.
I make no claims concerning mother art or any of the rest of it. Have you bothered to go back in the thread as I suggested so that you may have the proper context for my remarks, and thus for the remarks of Guro Inosanto?
"If the word, with the definition it has been given (not its muslim/arabic sounding cognate), does not exist in the Philippines now within a span of 50 to 100 years, we must hold this word (with its meaning) suspect."
Again, words offered in conversation seem to fail to register. Are we to be dogs barking at each other across a fence or are we men communicating? There is the Mirafuentes introduction, and there is Guro Inosanto's recounting of what he learned from Manong LaCoste. If you think him a liar, then say so.
grrrr,
Crafty Dog
-
Just in case some of you think otherwise....
Let it be known, that Robin Padilla is the one responsible for claiming on this forum that Kali is the mother art, not Guro Crafty.
BEGIN
"but to say "kali is the mother art and is found in the philippines", then be at a completely lost to support that claim is questionable."
END
Again, to support this fact we have evidence from Edgar Sulite's books. We have evidence from Dan Inosanto's Books who learned of Kali from LaCoste. It is also fact that Villabrille called his art Kali. Now, did one day, Villabrille and LaCoste hang out in the Asparagus fields of Stockton and decided to be propagandists and make a propaganda for FMA by coining the phrase "Kali"? I don't think so.
Does anyone know if Villabrille and Lacoste even met?
BEGIN
"If the word, with the definition it has been given (not its muslim/arabic sounding cognate), does not exist in the Philippines now within a span of 50 to 100 years, we must hold this word (with its meaning) suspect."
END
50 years huh? OK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Yambao book published in 1947? If so, then Kali is about 3 years short of 50 years. Close enough.
What about Arnis and Eskrima? Is there any evidence within a span of 50 to 100 years that these terms preceed Kali (the mother art)?
Hmmm...Maybe someone can track down the Yambao/Mirafuentes people and inquire about Kali (the mother art).
-
Rodger:
I make no claims concerning mother art or any of the rest of it. Have you bothered to go back in the thread as I suggested so that you may have the proper context for my remarks, and thus for the remarks of Guro Inosanto?
[/size]
Sorry, I was addressing Robin Padilla. Whenever I quote, "kali is the mother art", I'm addressing Robin Padilla.
Again, words offered in conversation seem to fail to register. Are we to be dogs barking at each other across a fence or are we men communicating? There is the Mirafuentes introduction, and there is Guro Inosanto's recounting of what he learned from Manong LaCoste. If you think him a liar, then say so.
[/size]
As for the Juan Lacoste/Kali connection, I have already posted the questions to try to verify this. Personally, this is my take on the Lacoste/Kali connection. And please keep in mind, this is just my opinion.
Mr. Lacoste was born somewhere in the Visayas, most likely Cebu. He was said to have travelled throughout the Philippines. This is nothing special in the Philippines, especially if you live in the coastal region of the Visayas. If you hang around in the ports of Cebu (especially back at the turn of the century), chances are you'll be able to hop on a steamer and end up in Zamboanga, Cagayan de Oro, Isabela, Cotabato, Tawi-Tawi, etc.
Mr. Lacoste went to California in the early part of the 1920s, 1930s, as many young Filipinos did when the Philippines became an American commonwealth. These Filipinos comprise the 'Manong' generation.
I asked you earlier whether, Mr. Lacoste called his art Kali, because no Bisayan calls their art Kali. If I am not mistaken he called his art Moro Moro. So, I think his use (or rather his introduction to this word) of Kali came later on when he met Mr. Inosanto, having already met Mr. Largusa, in California. When the word came up, he simply just agreed with it, as many Filipinos tend to do (like Antonio Ilustrisimo), because the name of their art is incidental.
Again, this is just my educated guess, given what little we know of Mr. Lacoste and his relation to the bigger cultural framework in the Visayas.
As for Mr. Inosanto a Liar, I will never refer to the man who brought FMA to the world as such. But, I will add that although he is Filipino by blood, he has never visited the Philippines, and does not speak a Filipino language (atleast fluently). So, we must account for all possibilities of translations lost.
1. Floro Villabrille (Mirafuerte, 1957) We're still trying to research this.
2. Ben Largusa
3. Dan Inosanto
4. Leo Gaje Jr.
So, if you agree with my little summary of the Lacoste/Kali connection, we still have 4 aces and a wild card.
-
What about Arnis and Eskrima? Is there any evidence within a span of 50 to 100 years that these terms preceed Kali (the mother art)?
[/size]
What years Arnis and Eskrima became part of the FMA lexicon, is really a non-issue, since no one claims these words to be Ancient or Filipino. These titles were arbitrarily used by two groups, namely the Bisayas and Tagalogs. I believe Ilocanos use Kabaro-an. But, no groups use Kali (atleast none you can come up with). :arrow:
Hmmm...Maybe someone can track down the Yambao/Mirafuentes people and inquire about Kali (the mother art).
[/size]
If we can figure out how Mirafuertes came up with Kali, we'll be able to connect the dots. As I've said we have 4 guys and Mirafuerte in 1957. During the 1950s, Villabrille and Largusa were in Hawaii.
On a side note, did Mr. Sulite travel all over the Philippines, or did he just travel around the Visayas region (northern Mindanao, Leyte, Negros, Cebu, etc.). Because out of the 40 or so, masters in his book, about 35 to 37 were Bisayas, and most were from Cebu. One Cebuano was connected to Kali, Antonio Ilustrimo. But, we later learned the truth about that connection.
-
On a side note, did Mr. Sulite travel all over the Philippines, or did he just travel around the Visayas region (northern Mindanao, Leyte, Negros, Cebu, etc.). Because out of the 40 or so, masters in his book, about 35 to 37 were Bisayas, and most were from Cebu. One Cebuano was connected to Kali, Antonio Ilustrimo. But, we later learned the truth about that connection.
-
Woof All:
With an eye to closing my participation in this thread, this summary:
1) Assertions were made that the Villabrille, Gaje, Illustrisimo claims of Kali had been disproven.
I am no historian, and these individuals and groups are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.
2) Assertions were made that Guro Inosanto's use of the term Kali descended from Villabrille, Gaje and Illustrisimo and that the four of them comprised the sources of the term Kali and thus in that V, G, & I had been defeated in scholarly debate, that Kali had been defeated as a term of legitimate use-- thus only the illegitimate used the term.
3) At this point I interjected my disagreement with this conclusion. IMHO this conclusion has NOT been determined beyond a reasonable doubt.
In evidence of this I noted the Mirafuentes introduction to Yambao (the year on this is not clear to me-- I have seen references in this thread to the late 1940s through the late 1957) and stated that Guro Inosanto's usage of Kali came principally from Manong LaCoste. Thus the Kali doubters could not yet claim victory should one agree with their assertions of defeating V, G, & I (and the V & G people may very well disagree!)
My post a couple of pages back stated:
BEGIN
Guro Inosanto also received the term from Manong Juan LaCoste. JLC was murdered in 1973 IIRC at the age of 89, which would mean he was born around 1884. The story of his travels in the Philippines is fairly well known, and for him the term Kali was quite valid. In that he was Guro Inosanto's principal FMA teacher, I would give him principal credit for Guro I's use of the term Kali.
END
This seems plain enough in its meaning to me. A follow-up inquiry asked
"To the best of your knowledge, did manong Juan LaCoste use 'Kali' for the art he practiced? or Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned? Manong Juan LaCoste was Bisaya, they say he was from Cebu, so the fact that he used 'Kali' for his art is very interesting."
I note in passing that he was born in Cebu does not mean his art was Cebuano. Anyway, I answered this follow-up question:
BEGIN
You are right to use the phrase "To the best of your knowledge" when dealing with me. I am a highly unreliable conduit of knowledge in these matters. As I have related previously elsewhere, during one of the periodic outbreaks of the JKD wars back in the 1980s in a guest column to Inside Kung Fu, I got something wrong that led to a lot of heat on Guro I. It was not until 3 or 4 years later that he gently said something in passing (said so gently I almost missed it) that led me to ask him a question that allowed him to set me straight.
You are also right to ask "Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned?" As a typical clueless American it has taken many years for me to begin to appreciate that there seems to be a cultural difference in Filipino and American culture when it comes to handling differences. Often, the Filipino will 'agree' so as to be 'polite' and the American will openly state his difference. Obviously, Filipinos will often disagree quite vigorously too and I readily admit to not having figured out criteria to predict whether the response will be polite pretense of agreement or passionate ire.
IIRC the order of Guro Inonsanto's studies, his studies with Manong LaCoste well preceded his training with Largusa and Villabrille.
IIRC Manong LaCoste, as I mentioned in a recent post here, was unusually well-travelled throughout the Philippine archipelago and was unusually diverse in his training-- including being accepted into training with Muslims in the south. It was out of this diverse training that he came to use the world Kali with Guro Inosanto.
But PLEASE do not take my word for any of this. Remember, I am a highly unreliable conduit. Guro Inosanto is out there on seminars well over 40 weekends a year. Why not ask him? Do know however, that he can have both a highly developed sense of wanting people to feel at ease as well as a desire to avoid conflict in such matters with vexatious persons.
Concerning the latter point, given what I have seen him deal with over the years, he has my understanding, my sympathy and my deepest respect.
END
IT IS THESE WORDS THAT GURO INOSANTO RATIFIES WITH HIS ANSWER WHICH I POSTED.
BEGIN
Marc:
Your reply is fine. Kali probably had many names in ancient times before the coming of the Spanish in the Philippines. Such as Kalirogan. Kaliradman. Kali-Kali and Pagkalikali to name a few.
END
Again I was queried on this same point:
BEGIN
I asked you earlier whether, Mr. Lacoste called his art Kali, because no Bisayan calls their art Kali. If I am not mistaken he called his art Moro Moro. So, I think his use (or rather his introduction to this word) of Kali came later on when he met Mr. Inosanto, having already met Mr. Largusa, in California. When the word came up, he simply just agreed with it, as many Filipinos tend to do (like Antonio Ilustrisimo), because the name of their art is incidental.
Again, this is just my educated guess, given what little we know of Mr. Lacoste and his relation to the bigger cultural framework in the Visayas.
END
Your educated guess notwithstanding, the answer remains the same as stated by me and directly affirmed by Guro Inosanto. MANONG LACOSTE USED THE TERM KALI (amongst others) AND IS THE PRINCIPAL SOURCE OF GURO INOSANTO USING IT AS WELL. His being born in Cebu is irrelevant.
I close with this point and by reiterating the matter posed by the Mirafuentes intro. I know that some anti-kalistas have hypothesized some conspiracy by Stockton CA farm field hands that reached all the way back to the Philippines so thoroughly so long ago that by the time it was written that Mirafuentes thought the term needed no further explanation, but IMHO this is well short of proving one's case :P .
My position continues to be that the anti-Kalistas have not yet conclusively proven their historical case. I also continue not being a historian. I also continue to seek to persuade no one. I also continue to never assert "mother art" and the like. I merely defend myself (and my teacher) from insults in the guise of disagreement.
And indeed one may disagree about all this. Those so inclined to invest their time in these things are free to do so-- including here so long as done in a mutually respectful manner-- and I will continue to be an interested bystander.
But my hackles go up when it is claimed that there is no honest basis for the Kali side to maintain itself and that to do so implies negative things about those that do so.
I now return to other things.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
-
"Dan Inosanto: The Man, The Teacher, The Artist"
JUANITO (JOHN) LACOSTE
Guro John LaCoste taught Dan kali-escrima-kuntao silat (bersilat) panatukan, dumog-kapulubud, and panjakan. Dan's father, Sebastian, took him to meet LaCoste before Dan went into the army, but it wasn't until 1969 or 1970 that Dan understood what LaCoste was trying to teach him.
Born somewhere in the central Philippines in 1888, Guro LaCoste studied and was familiar with many different styles, but his favorites were the Muslim system of the southern Philippines, especially two styles from the island of Cebu and one from the island of Occidental Negros.
Guro LaCoste moved from the Philippines to Hawaii and was deported after he headed a major labor strike that cost the lives of a dozen farm workers and 22 "policemen." He came back to California several years later, enlisted in the military, and was eventually decorated for heroism. Due to citizenship issues, he borrowed the name "LaCoste" so he could stay longer in the army.
When he was finally discharged, he settled in Stockton, California, where he received several commendations from the Stockton police for catching criminals. Tragically, he was murdered in 1977, shot in the head from behind by a person with whom he'd had a heated political discussion.
According to Guro LaCoste, in one month he could teach anyone how to fight and defeat any style of escrima by showing how to block and counter the first two strikes. From him, Guro Dan learned the versatility of the Filipino martial arts and the use of trapping and checking hands. Guro Dan felt that Guro LaCoste was a master with the stick, dagger, long blade, and empty hands (Inosanto, Foon, and Johnson 1980: 17).
Dan Inosanto believes LaCoste's system was one of the best in providing an overall explanation of the Filipino arts and that LaCoste was one of the best all-around instructors with whom he has studied. LaCoste had 12 categories of instruction and could relate each category to the other, particularly with empty-hand techniques.
LaCoste liked to start students with the long and short sticks derived from the sword-and-dagger method. His feeling was that with a complete comprehension of the long and short weapons, the student would understand the application of the other categories.
LaCoste was a spiritual man whose personal philosophy was that you could learn from anyone. This appealed to Dan Inosanto and was one of the reasons he began to cross-train with other instructors. LaCoste even sent Dan to different kali and escrima instructors, something virtually unheard of in the martial arts world of the early 1960s.
-
18 February 2004 (Martial Arts Planet forum)
I've been trying to get you a concrete answer on this but nobody that I know seems to have that kind of information for sure.
From the 1980 book written by Guro I "The Filipino Martial Arts" I have pulled several dates which can give you an idea of his training with John LaCoste.
1961 - Discharged from military and moved to LA, started training in Kempo with Ed Parker. At some point around the time DI gets a black belt in Kempo, presumably several years later, Ed Parker suggests that DI look into Eskrima
1977 - Death/murder of John LaCoste
1980 - Publication of FMA book in which DI says he's been trying to get a handle of John LaCoste's footwork for about 14 years. Presumably this interview took place 1-2 years before publication (judging by the publication times that we have on books in my company).
So from this I'm postulating that he trained with John LaCoste from about 1963/4 to 1977.
From the description in the book it sounds like the training happened in an ad hoc fashion rather than regular classes. Sorry that I don't have more info. If you like I can bring a copy of the section from the book about John LaCoste with me when we meet up?
Also Guro I will be over in July for his 25th annual seminar - no doubt its a question he'd be happy to answer.
Hope that's useful?
Dred
-
1. Floro Villabrille
2. Ben Largusa
3. Dan Inosanto
4. Leo Gaje Jr.
Questions and Comments:
a. When did Guro Dan Inosanto first meet and train with Mr. Ben Largusa? What year?
b. From the dates above training of Guro Dan Inosanto with Juan LaCoste puts it around mid-1960s to late-1960s, until his death in 1977.
c. If Guro Dan Inosanto trained with Mr. Ben Largusa, while he trained with Mr. Juan LaCoste, is there a chance that the word and concept of Kali transferred from Largusa, to Inosanto, then to LaCoste, who merely agreed to the term?
(more to come...)
-
rodger,history is gay.kali is what we call it now.you should worry about how to not get hit with a stick cus all those dates and shit is just gay.
-
1. Floro Villabrille
2. Ben Largusa
3. Dan Inosanto
4. Leo Gaje Jr.
Questions and Comments:
a. When did Guro Dan Inosanto first meet and train with Mr. Ben Largusa? What year?
b. From the dates above training of Guro Dan Inosanto with Juan LaCoste puts it around mid-1960s to late-1960s, until his death in 1977.
c. If Guro Dan Inosanto trained with Mr. Ben Largusa, while he trained with Mr. Juan LaCoste, is there a chance that the word and concept of Kali transferred from Largusa, to Inosanto, then to LaCoste, who merely agreed to the term?
(more to come...)
Good questions,
I am interested also. It is fun, interesting and educational to piece together history!
Gruhn
-
rodger,history is gay.kali is what we call it now.you should worry about how to not get hit with a stick cus all those dates and shit is just gay.
[/size]
It's comments like this, that keep us Filipinos in the dark (forever not knowing our own history). History is "just gay". This is the most ignorant thing anyone can say.
We're asking questions to find out what really happened. If we ask the right questions, we'll get the right answers. We've lost too much history already to not care, because it's "just gay".
Good questions,
I am interested also. It is fun, interesting and educational to piece together history!
Gruhn
Yes, questions like these should not be construed as 'disrespect', but answered for the sake of knowledge. If the answers support your views, then great.
If the answers, favor another theory, then people have to be able to switch their perspectives on history.
If the answers do not contribute anything, then we go back to square one. But, we will keep on asking questions, this is inevitable.
-
so has anyone seen a real stick fight, or sword fight where FMA training was used? I assume this was the original wuestion, and an interesting one to me that didn't quite go too far in responses.
I have not, other than dog brothers fights. But unprotected challenge matches or more serious ones. As I have never even heard of one in the modern day.
For me the big difference of a street fight where it is spontaneous and a match in the future is the anticipation. I would love to hear any responses. Tim
-
Woof Tim!
How the hell are you? Come post on the DBMAA forum and let us know!
Crafty
PS: Good observation.
-
http://www.villabrillelargusakali.com/largusa.htm
"Born on Kauai, Hawaii on December 21, 1926, Grand Master Largusa?s first exposure to Kali came when as a toddler, he watched the Filipino men in his hometown of Kilauea, Kauai, Hawaii practice with the sticks."
"At the 1964 Ed Parker International Karate Championships held in Long Beach, California, he gave America its first demonstration of Kali. Also in attendance were numerous martial artists from around the world, including Ed Parker, Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto, and Jhoon Rhee."
"As the years passed, he saw the need to perpetuate Villabrille?s teachings and to promote a part of the Filipino heritage. With Villabrille?s blessing, he began teaching a select group of students privately in his home in South San Francisco, California in 1969."