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3851  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff ) on: February 23, 2012, 12:03:47 PM
JDN, Entering one's home when you are home or not home has a TERROR affect on the family and the neighborhood; that is not just a property crime and that is MY opinion, not the law.  Almost grazing their cheek with a bullet if you have that ability does no harm either by your standard if you think the only damage of forcible entry with a stranger in a family home is the loss of CDs.  I was clear BTW about not advocating breaking the law so don't take my comment out of its context.  Thank you.

You wrote yourself: "This is not a good case for the DA."

Why not?  Because he didn't do anything wrong.
3852  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters) on: February 23, 2012, 11:38:00 AM
Good constitutional discussion over on gay issues thread.  This part in particular by bigdog is noteworthy.

"I think "the people" do have a say.  First, they elect (sort of, at least ) the president who nominates.  Second, they elect the senators who confirm.  Third, they have the ability, especially through interest groups or other bodies, to file amicus briefs with the Court.  Fourth, federal judges are appointed for life... with good behavior.  There is an impeachment mechanism in place, if "the people" were willing to push it.  Fifth, as noted elsewhere, Congress can change (appellate) jurisdiction.  The people could push for that."

When I read the quote of Justice Ginsburg preferring the South African constitution to ours, it made me think of impeachment.  Not for her own freedom of speech but if any of her Court opinions were derived from some standard other than the U.S. constitution.

Our ongoing criticisms and second guessing of court decisions as I see it is our way of staying active and informed.  The say that the people have on the court through the selection process has been my first answer to anyone who says there is no difference between the parties or the candidates.  There is quite a difference it seems to me between the appointees of Bush versus Obama even though Justices often surprise or disappoint.

I remember that a major, public, conservative uproar brought down the Harriet Miers appointment of Pres. Bush.  There was a smaller conservative protest to Pres. Reagan's selection of Arizona moderate Sandra Day O'Connor that perhaps should have been heeded.
3853  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff ) on: February 23, 2012, 10:45:09 AM
I am not advocating anyone break the law, just enjoying the freedom of this venue to disagree with laws and try to distinguish between right or wrong.

I couldn't disagree more strongly with the idea presented that a home invasion, a stranger with known criminal capacity forcibly or wrongfully entering the structure you bought or built to separate yourself and your family from such strangers, is only an insurable property crime??  To me, that is very wrong.  By entering, they put your irreplaceables into an unacceptable risk of danger, IMHO. 

My thought is that if a person willing to threaten or scare a family to that extreme extent received a shot from a neighbor that hit only his earring, that would also only be an insurable property crime. 

Who is the victim of the shot into the ground?
3854  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / 2012 Presidential: Text of GOP debate Mesa Arizona, 2/23/2012 on: February 23, 2012, 10:18:02 AM

I read the transcript this morning, did not see the debate.  In general I would say each got to clarify his positions somewhat and no new ground was really broken.  All 4 seem a little more cautious about practicing scorched earth politics as they each now trail the failed President in the polls.  All 3 (except Ron Paul) seem to be in pretty close agreement over foreign policy.

The earmark discussion was interesting.  When funds are not earmarked by congress all goes to the executive branch.  The real question was how all these things get lumped on to other bills and how the line item veto that would solve this was struck down by the court.
Adding a comment, Santorum's defense of endorsing Arlen Specter over Pat Toomey was that Specter was chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee and promised Santorum he would move the President's conservative Supreme Court picks through a 51-49 senate where the 51 included some very Democrat-like moderates.

Romney answered one charge against Romneycare from Santorum, that Santrum had endorsed him as a good conservative in 2008 - well after Romneycare.
3855  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 22, 2012, 12:14:23 PM
The readings referred by bigdog regarding the Disabilities Act remind of why it is much better top make private and charitable accommodations than to attempt to solve individual problems through an act of congress.  One example, the court became the governing body of the PGA Tour.  Even in professional sports they are no longer free to make and enforce their own rules.
3856  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Santorum on: February 22, 2012, 11:34:48 AM
I think Morris has it about right on Santorum.  He is a fine man and a good conservative, but not good enough to bet the whole election on.  He has not been strategic in terms of setting up to win a general election and he comes into this without executive experience.

He is getting his flash of flame later because he didn't stand out earlier.

He is no further right than Obama is to the left and his social stands are not as extreme as the shocked CBS hosts and NY Times columnists might want to think.  If he is the candidate, they will have already beat the social issues to death on him and the focus will come back to the economy and foreign policy. 

Sen. Santorum has more foreign policy experience than most.  On economic issues, I would have rather have a different PA Senator - Pat Toomey.
3857  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 21, 2012, 06:45:43 PM
BD, Thank you. I will read.

To JDN:  We all may be pursuing happiness but we all might face limits on our choices.  Your circumstances coincided with a definition of marriage, but individuals do not always either fall in love or marry get the person of your choice, only of mutual choice.  Without the other person's consent and all other conditions required, the opportunity in law is simply not available, hetero or gay.   A single person perhaps would confide their innermost thoughts to a closest sibling, but never will be granted spousal privilege for that relationship, no matter how close, and no matter the outcome of the gay marriage question.  Yes, we discriminate. I don't know how to explain any further or better that marriage laws still discriminate even if you add same gender relationships to it.  The choices we make in policy that affect different people differently.  Ending the special, government recognition of marriage has drawbacks too.

"...gender should b equal. No more but no less. R u implying gender equality is bad?"

One meaning of "equal" is "same".  Do I think both genders (are there only two?) are the same and we should ban all distinctions?  ... No!  How can you ever put woman and children first if all are defined as equal, same, comparable, identical, indistinguishable, matched, matching, one and the same, uniform, unvarying. *

You really don't get it that I (like Obama) think marriage involves a husband and wife (extremely gender specific distinctions terms) and that all kids in a perfect world deserve a shot at a mom and a dad (gender specific, even if some of them are lousy), married and in love with each other all under one roof.

The only good I can see coming out of a gender neutral society is that maybe we could have saved 163 million baby girls from gender selection killings in Asia.

Is there no situation where you would protect women and children first?  
* equal  from
Definition:    alike
Synonyms:    according, balanced, break even, commensurate, comparable, coordinate, correspondent, corresponding, double, duplicate, egalitarian, equivalent, evenly matched, fifty-fifty, homologous, identic, identical, indistinguishable, invariable, level, look-alike, matched, matching, one and the same, parallel, proportionate, same, same difference, spit and image, stack up with, tantamount, to the same degree, two peas in pod, uniform, unvarying
Antonyms:    different, not alike, unequal, unlike, unmatched, variable, varying
CCP:  Yes, there is FAR more to the activist agenda than the private pursuit of happiness.
3858  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Liberal fascism and Cronyism: all one and the same over at Democrats Inc. on: February 21, 2012, 03:02:27 PM
Occupy?? Ha!

Democrats, Inc.
Feb 17, 2012 • By JAY COST

Two news stories from this week underscored the most important development in Democratic party politics in the last thirty years. First, from the Washington Free Beacon:

    Politico Influence reports that House minority leader Nancy Pelosi and minority whip Steny Hoyer raised $400,000 last night at a fundraiser held at the home of Democratic lobbyists Heather and Tony Podesta. Heather Podesta runs the firm Heather Podesta and Partners.

    Heather Podesta’s clients include liberal bogeymen such as the for-profit education industry and Brookfield Asset Management, the real-estate company that owns Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan and which ultimately gave the NYPD the green light to evict the Occupy Wall Street movement from its grounds in November 2011. Pelosi is a vocal supporter of the occupiers, having once said, “God bless them.”

Second, from Bloomberg:

    President Barack Obama returns to New York on March 1 for his first campaign fundraiser with investment bankers and hedge fund managers since asking Congress in his 2013 budget to increase taxes on the wealthy.

    The president’s hosts include Ralph Schlosstein, chief executive officer at Evercore Partners Inc. (EVR), and his wife, Jane Hartley, co-founder of the economic and political advisory firm Observatory Group LLC, who were assured last week by Jim Messina, Obama’s campaign manager, that the president won’t demonize Wall Streetin his re-election pursuit.

    The $35,800-per-person dinner at ABC Kitchen, the first of the evening’s four fundraising events, is being hosted by many of Obama’s top Wall Street donors, according to a person familiar with the matter. Sponsors include Blair W. Effron, partner and co-founder of Centerview Partners LLP; Marc Lasry, managing partner and founder of Avenue Capital Group; Mark Gallogly, a managing principal of Centerbridge Partners; James Rubin, managing director of BC Partners; Robert Wolf, UBS AG’s chairman for the Americas; and Antonio Weiss, global head of investment banking at Lazard Ltd.

The Democratic party used to be the party opposed to big business. Andrew Jackson was reviled by business elites, and William Jennings Bryan scared the living daylights out of them. Neither of those men would be caught dead asking for money from such lobbyists and bankers, who would never give them a dime, anyway!

But that is obviously no longer true. What we have instead is a party whose leaders simultaneously press the case for “fairness” while giving unfair access to wealthy donors such as these. And that has basically been the way of the world for the last 30 years; since the mid-1980s, the Democrats in Congress have usually matched or exceeded the GOP in terms of contributions from business and professional PACs.

Why has this happened? It has to do with the two sided nature of the modern Democratic party. On the one hand, the party promotes progressivism as its public-spirited governing philosophy. This is the ideology that animates the pages of The New Republic, The Nation, and well-intentioned liberals everywhere: The idea that a powerful central government can bring about social justice and true equality. But there is another side of the coin, less commented upon and much less noble: The Democratic party is also a massive patronage operation that uses the vast regulatory and redistributive powers of the federal government to attract and maintain political clients, whose loyalty stems not simply from the party’s public-spirited philosophy but also the special benefits they enjoy for being coalition members.

This is why politicians in the liberal party do so many illiberal things. Railing against “millionaires and billionaires” on one day then ponying up to them, hat in hand, on the other is one such example. Another is preening about the undue influence of the pharmaceutical industry during the 2008 campaign, and then giving them a sweetheart deal in Obamacare.

And let’s be clear, those “millionaires and billionaires” are getting something for their campaign contributions. Consider, for instance, this great article by Peter Schweizer in Reason about Warren Buffett. He’s now the Democratic party’s number one talking point in pushing for equality. It isn’t fair that he gets taxed at such a lower rate than his secretary. He doesn’t need the money! But Schweizer demonstrates that Buffett has in fact made a killing off his access to the higher-ups in the Democratic party. A modest increase in his tax rate is a small price to pay for the ability to influence public policy.

And he is no exception. As Charles Gasparino argues about the Dodd-Frank regulations:

    The trade-off for all this regulation is government protection, which is what makes the crony capitalism of the modern banking business really work . . . mplicit in just about every facet of the bill was that “too big to fail”—the notion that Citigroup, Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan, and Morgan Stanley are so large and intertwined in the global economy that they need to be monitored and propped up no matter how much money they lose—was here to stay.

This signals the core problem of the Democratic party: It has become the opposite of what its founders intended it to be, and indeed opposite of what it claims to be today. The party presents itself as the party of the people against the powerful, of political and economic equality for all, of true social justice. But the reality is that the party now offers special benefits, sometimes amounting to billions of taxpayer dollars, for those who contribute to its political success.

Last week I compared the modern party to Tammany Hall, and its coziness with Wall Street is probably the most striking example of the parallel between the two. Tammany didn't win elections merely through the support of the Irish, but also by keeping its financial sponsors on Wall Street happy. So, year after year, Tammany pols would enorse the Democratic party platform, which inevitably railed against the GOP's coziness with special interests, while they themselves were cozy with those very same interests. That is the modern Democratic party in a nutshell.
3859  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Schieffer to Santorum:I had hoped to ask you some questions about the economy... on: February 21, 2012, 02:46:42 PM
Along the same lines as the previous piece, John Hinderacker has an anti-Santorum post at Powerline criticising not his answers, but the questions that Santorum draws.  We don't come together over the budget, entitlements, debt or limited government by talking right now about abortion, gay marriage, contraception etc.

He has some answers skipped because the point he is making is the questions that he draws.  In this case he is blaming the candidate, not the CBS liberal host. The ending is priceless: "I had hoped to ask you about some questions about the economy. But, frankly, you made so much news yesterday, out there on the campaign trail, I felt compelled to ask you about that."

Posted on February 19, 2012 by John Hinderaker in GOP Presidential Race 2012
Are There Republicans Who Think This Is a Good Idea? Seriously?

Rick Santorum is a bright, well-intentioned guy. But the idea that he is the strongest candidate the Republicans can nominate for the presidency strikes me, with all due respect, as ludicrous. Put aside the fact that Santorum lost his last race by 18 points in his home state of Pennsylvania: not exactly an auspicious way to kick off a presidential campaign. Rather, consider that Santorum has always been most passionate about the social issues. Is that really what the GOP wants to talk to voters about in 2012, when the country–the Brokest Nation In History, as Mark Steyn puts it–is $15 trillion in debt; when the Obama administration has driven our economy into the most prolonged funk since the Great Depression; and when Barack Obama has instituted the most corrupt system of cronyism in American history? Seriously?

The fate of a Santorum candidacy was foreshadowed this morning in Santorum’s appearance on CBS’s Face the Nation. Follow the link to read the entire, sad transcript. Here are the questions that Bob Schieffer asked Santorum, verbatim:

    You are the leader in the polls this morning. And I have to say you were very busy yesterday. The Associated Press led its story of your appearance in Columbus, Ohio, by saying, quote, “Rick Santorum questioned Barack Obama’s Christian values.” That was after you lashed out at the President’s proposal on energy of all things when you said this.

    RICK SANTORUM (Republican Presidential Candidate/Former Pennsylvania Senator): It’s not about you. It’s not about you. It’s not about your quality of life. It’s not about your jobs.

    MAN: Right.

    RICK SANTORUM: It’s about some phony ideal, some phony theology. Oh, not a theology based on the Bible, a different theology.

    (Crowd applauding)

    BOB SCHIEFFER: So, Senator, I’ve got to ask you. What– what in the world were you talking about, Sir?


    BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, how does that translate into some sort of theology that the President’s theology is not based on the Bible. I mean that suggests that he’s not a Christian.


    BOB SCHIEFFER: I– I don’t want to just spend the whole program on this, but was your use of the word theology, perhaps, you could have had a better word than that? I mean, don’t you know that, or do you wonder that– that might lead some people to suggest that you were questioning the President’s faith?


    BOB SCHIEFFER: At another stop in Columbus, you took on the President on prenatal care for expectant mothers. Here’s what you said at this– in this passage.

    RICK SANTORUM: One of the things that you don’t know about Obamacare and one of the mandates is they require free prenatal testing in every insurance policy in America. Why? Because it saves money in health care. Why? Because free prenatal testing ends up in more abortions and therefore less care that has to be done because we cull the ranks of the disabled in our society.

    BOB SCHIEFFER: Senator, I– I have to ask you to– to give some explanation of that. You sound like you’re saying that the purpose of prenatal care is to cause people to– to have abortions, to get more abortions in this country. I think there are any number testing, I think any number of people would– would say that’s not the purpose at all.


    BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, I– I know you know what you’re talking about. I know that well. I know you also had another child that was stillborn. But–

    RICK SANTORUM (overlapping): And I was–

    BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): Didn’t you want to know about that, just a minute.

    (Cross talking)

    BOB SCHIEFFER: Just hold on.

    RICK SANTORUM: But what my– my child was not stillborn. My child was born alive.

    BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.

    RICK SANTORUM: –and he lived two hours.

    BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.


    BOB SCHIEFFER: I stand corrected on the stillborn. You’re absolutely right. I simply misspoke. But, Senator, do you not want any kind of prenatal testing? I mean would we just turn our back on science that this is something that expectant mothers should not go through, that it’s best not to know about these things ahead of time? I mean is that what you’re saying here?


    BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): You’re not saying. Let me just ask you, you’re not saying that the cause of this, that the President looks down on disabled people, are you? You’re not accusing him of that?


    BOB SCHIEFFER: And– and how you feel about this. Another thing that raised a few eyebrows yesterday, Senator, you questioned the value of all things at the public school system. Now here’s what you said about that.

    RICK SANTORUM: But the idea that the federal government should be running schools, frankly, much less that the state government should be running schools is anachronistic. It goes back to the time of industrialization of America when people came off the farms where they did home school or have the little neighborhood school and into these big factories. So we built equal factories called public schools.

    BOB SCHIEFFER: So, there you are, Senator. I mean, are you saying that we shouldn’t have public schools now? I mean I thought public schools were the foundation of American democracy.

Santorum did a reasonably good job of fielding these questions. But does anyone seriously believe that it is in the Republicans’ interest for the 2012 presidential election to center on theology and gynecology? Here is Schieffer’s last question of Santorum:

    BOB SCHIEFFER: Senator, I want to thank you very much for being with us this morning. I had hoped to ask you about some questions about the economy. But, frankly, you made so much news yesterday, out there on the campaign trail, I felt compelled to ask you about that. Thank you so much for being with us.

That pretty much says it all. With Santorum launching one social issues bomb after another, there is no time to talk about the economy. Is this the Democratic Party’s dream, or what? In a national poll that came out today, Santorum is leading Mitt Romney by eight points among likely Republican voters. Can Republicans possibly be that foolish? Is it conceivable that a president with Obama’s lousy record could coast to victory, virtually by default, because the Republicans nominate a candidate who would rather talk about gynecology than debt? At the moment, that prospect does not seem far-fetched.
3860  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Political Economics: Gallup has unemployment spiking back up to 9% on: February 21, 2012, 02:34:58 PM
We are on the right track politically is bullsh*t.

Unadjusted unemployment back up to 9%.  The adjusted number is zero or any other number that you want.  "Underemployment" is back up to 19%!

February 17, 2012
U.S. Unemployment Increases in Mid-February
Underemployment also up, to 19.0%
by Dennis Jacobe, Chief Economist

PRINCETON, NJ -- The U.S. unemployment rate, as measured by Gallup without seasonal adjustment, is 9.0% in mid-February, up from 8.6% for January. The mid-month reading normally reflects what the U.S. government reports for the entire month, and is up from 8.3% in mid-January.
3861  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 2012 Presidential on: February 21, 2012, 02:27:36 PM
"Michigan is the whole shooting match," said one senior GOP strategist not aligned with a campaign. Says another: "If Romney loses Michigan, all hell breaks loose."

If Santorum wins, he is the sustained frontrunner; he is the already the leader at this point.  Feb 28 is the turning point either way for Romney.  Michigan is a primary not a caucus state and the other side is uncontested so anyone eligible to vote and willing to show up and say they are Republican will get a ballot.  In Feb 2000, moderates showed up for McCain.

Only one debate (tomorrow, Mesa AZ, CNN) before the vote.
3862  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian: Constitutionality of marriage? on: February 21, 2012, 01:43:28 PM
Wishing to drop the cultural issues for this election cycle, but so many questions are unresolved.  Jumping around with some quotes/excerpts here, hopefully keeping the original meaning as posted.

bigdog wrote: "You gents don't seem to get that marriage laws, like any other laws, can be changed."

This is a good point.  It is separate from the question of whether existing marriage laws are unconstitutional.

bigdog wrote:

"Gay marriage does NOT have to be compelled by the Constitution for it to be accepted by the Constitution."

Very true.  My question: is it compelled by the constitution?

bigdog continued: "... the 9th Amendment leaves open the possibility that there are other, unenumerated rights.  Privacy, of course, is one that has been recognized.  I know, from prior discussions with you (Crafty), that you acknowledge the right to privacy.  As JDN states, there could be an argument made that gay marriage could be allowed, based on privacy precedent. 

Public recognition of a gay union is the opposite of a right to privacy, is it not? 

bigdog:  "But, there could be, at least in theory, a stand alone right found in the 9th."

This is a good point. Some certainly see it that way.  Depends on which 9 people you ask.  It seems to me that if a standalone right is found for any citizen to be offered the designation of married, not just gay couples, isn't that the same as ending the public designation of married? 

I still fail to understand what rights are denied to a gay American who is in a loving, committed gay relationship that are also not denied to a single person who does not have a heterosexual partner consenting to marry.  In all cases you have the right to marry one person of the opposite sex with certain conditions applied, if and/or when those specific circumstances apply to you.

I asked JDN to no avail, but why does the 'equal protection under different circumstances' concept apply to all other areas of public policies including taxing, spending and regulating (see 2012 SOTU), but not apply to marriage? 

bigdog: "in some areas of civil rights, such as handicapped, special accommodations are exactly what they are entitled to."

Very true, but they are entitled to certain accommodations because a federal law was passed by the people's representatives and signed by the President.  It was not an unenumerated right found in the constitution. 
3863  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Pathological Science on: February 21, 2012, 11:14:59 AM
"I am not for or against "climate change" resulting from human behavior.  I am simply confused." - CCP

If it turns out that humans are irreparably harming the planet right now and that we have a short time to act, the phony, agenda driven 'scientists' like Michael Mann set beck the quest for that truth by about 20 years in my estimation with their dishonesty, deceit and monopolistic practices to take over and dominate the profession.

"...the worst that can happen is that we ruin the planet" ... which is of course justification for all ends and all means.  Strangely coincident is that the solution for warming would be bigger and stronger governments, if not world government, and smaller and smaller personal and economic liberties - the same environmental agenda pushed before the discovery of warming.  Who knew? Also strange is that none of the scientists or big advocates have quit heating or air conditioning their work spaces, or shrunk their work spaces, or moved into their work spaces, or ended the ritual of all expenses paid global travels to meet with each other regularly - while suggesting all of that is necessary for everyone else to do so.  Meanwhile the mercury-based light bulb mandate is now in effect on you, from people who know better than you, unless you can get a waiver from people more powerful than you.
3864  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters) on: February 21, 2012, 10:52:35 AM
A lot of banter over one's profession over on Political Economics, the least of our spending problems come from paying real people to do real work that really is the function of that level of government like local police and fire. Still it begs the constitutional question, under what authority is nationalizing the hiring police and teachers derived?  Or the potential bailouts of the states and localities who commit to compensation and retirement packages they cannot afford? 


"President Barack Obama said Monday that he would like to extend the school year and raise teacher pay to help improve the U.S. education system." WSJ 9/27/2010

"President Clinton today announced the first round of police hiring grants under the new crime bill, an important step toward his goal of putting 00,000 police on America's streets. "  (Oct 1994)

Supreme Court Justices are NOT the only government officials sworn to "...preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

3865  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / 2012 Presidential: Surprising Presidential Polls on: February 21, 2012, 09:33:39 AM
Obama is leading in the individual matchups at this point in spite of presiding over a miserable economic 'recovery', therefore he will win in November; that is the pessimism I have been hearing.  Polls from other Presidential years:

Gallup Jan 1980 Carter 63%, Reagan 32%

Dukakis up by 17% over George H.W. Bush, July and August 1988
3866  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: The electoral process, vote fraud, SEIU/ACORN et al, corruption etc. on: February 17, 2012, 12:53:52 PM
Rachel Maddow has uncovered unreported results before they were reported or recorded?  Yes maybe a scandal of timing or incompetence with the volunteers.  She presents the question of whether or not it was rigged without even a suggestion of evidence of rigging.  The accusation is that someone may have tried to affect the timing of reporting in order in one area in Maine to influence a news story. OMG.

Slow news day, that is a lot of hoopla over a non-binding straw vote of caucus attendees.  In our caucus we were required by state law to announce to the caucus the exact results of the vote before it was called in.  Then it was called in cell phone to cell phone (to the volunteer daughters of one of the organizers) and accumulated with other results to try to get something preliminary reported onto the evening news.  The procedure was set long before anyone knew who the result would favor.  That is not exactly an election result certified by a Secretary of State.

Someone please post the video of Rahel Maddow's outrage over the 'uncounted' Al Franken votes found in the trunk of a Minneapolis car late on election night after Norm Coleman was originally called the winner and dozens of other irregularities in an ABC documentary .I have posted previously. I'm sure she was all over it.  Votes known to be wrong were certified by the Sec State and provided the 60th vote in the Senate to deem health care passed, affecting everyone for generations, not an evening news non-binding straw poll preliminary result.  Just my two cents.
3867  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 17, 2012, 12:06:46 PM
Bigdog, Thanks for joining in.  I am answering only for my part.  Father and son, absolutely! My list was not intended to single out, just tried not to drag it out too far since my attempted point was lost anyway!

"the idea somehow that fathers and sons, or mothers and daughters don’t/can’t/shouldn’t (here is where I am not sure I understand the point of the argument) have a strong, or special, relationship is pretty crappy."

No, no, no, I meant exactly the opposite.  I don't love anyone in the world more than my own father nor regret anything in the world more than not having a son.  I was trying to say ALL those relationships and many not named can be special, extremely special and private, and better and stronger than many marriages, and half of them may be opposite sex relationships as with your examples other than with your wife, but none of them are marriage.  So we already discriminate in law between all these relationships and marriage, not just gay relationships.   Seems to me we should strike down marriage if unconstitutional like slavery or if not try to agree on some special accommodations for gay unions over on the legislative side of the government.

I find the comparison to race and America growing out of slavery to be quite uncompelling even if some of the same words or phrases were used. 

Where is the similar evidence that gays are similarly abused by our laws.  Gay incomes are equal or higher to straights and housing is already protected and widely available.  I don't know a restaurant or drinking fountain that asks orientation before allowing service.  And single people don't receive spousal privilege.

Is marriage as we know it wrong?  Is it unconstitutional?  In 200+ years, was it ever struck down?  Why not?  Marriage only applies to a select group of people, restricted by age, gender and circumstance, not just orientation.  If marriage as we know it is a violation of pre-existing rights, as with slavery, end it, not extend it to one more group still at the exclusion of others.

In what way is a gay person who does not choose to be a part of husband-wife marital union denied any right that a single heterosexual person who does not have a heterosexual partner willing to marry is not similarly denied?

If you already answered that, sorry I missed it.
On the point of 5 people deciding gay marriage, the constitution couldn't be more silent about couple's rights IMHO but has always included a mechanism for adding to or changing the text.  If people of different circumstances must be treated exactly the same in law, we have a whole lot of programs ready to fall.  Public policy wouldn't come down to 5 chosen people if the path written into the constitution to change it was followed.  Slavery was ended in war but it was also ended in the constitution in the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.  Five people didn't decide that.
3868  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Tax Policy on: February 17, 2012, 10:23:03 AM
"...University of Southern California (USC).  Actually quite a conservative school; at least in comparison to many others.  I had been accepted at Berkeley but my parents thought it was too liberal..."

Your parents did the best they could for you under the circumstances.   wink  Some of us here are trying to lure you to that next level of interest in economics, i.e. how people respond to different incentives and disincentives to produce.

"most of our time we spent racing, chasing girls, drinking, or just sailing down to Mexico."

The lifestyle of the 1%.  We should tax it more.  Or just ban it (sailing) with a federal law as they have done in the most beautiful part of MN.

"the truly rich do not have the greatest sensitivity to tax rates."

Please back that up at your leisure with something empirical. 

I would link this thread and this forum as a one-sided documentary as to the opposite, and I would be happy to pull out specifics across the world and throughout history for you, if requested.
3869  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: The Cognitive Dissonance of His Glibness on: February 17, 2012, 12:35:28 AM
Cleveland I think was the 22nd and 24th President.  Obama may also want to take a little break.
3870  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Fascism, liberal fascism, progressivism, socialism: on: February 16, 2012, 08:25:52 PM
Rove is right on this. It is all targeted politically as other people's money.  They had it all planned out many times over how they were going to spend the money from letting the Bush tax cuts expire - raising rates only on the rich.

Pres. Obama includes himself as among the 'fortunate' who can afford to pay more, partly to brag,  but he never took a risk that involved employing people or even held a full-time private sector job.  He wasn't fortunate (lucky), he was clever, leveraging his public fame into personal wealth.

They don't target the rich because they can afford to pay more.  They pretend to target the rich to make the lower 98% think that their recklessness won't affect them.

Rich with other peoples' money means entitled to staff - up to the point where they don't even know how many they have.  The first lady denies the Glen Beck claim that she has 43 staff.  She says (through a staff person) that it is closer to 25.  If this is a math problem, 33 is closer to 25 than to 43, not counting staff that are not called staff and not counting the ones hired since.  She has had 3 chiefs of staff, "The turnover, greater than under recent first ladies, underscores the pressure and high expectations of working in an operation known for its polish and discipline" [with other peoples money].
3871  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 16, 2012, 07:50:26 PM
"One could argue that gays are included..."

Yes, if you change or ignore the meanings of the words involved: marriage, husband and wife.  I now pronounce you individual and individual. - ?

"we will see how the Court rules....."

Yes, then we will know what 5 people think.  This wasn't written or settled in the constitution and I can't figure out why in the Declaration of Independence they chose the phrase 'consent of the governed' if they meant governed by the dictate of 5 chosen people.   (
3872  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Tax Policy on: February 16, 2012, 07:36:38 PM
"I think we can raise taxes (sorry)..."

a)  Why be sorry if its the right thing to do. 

"... on the rich."

b) Why are we back less than 24 hours after worrying about equal protection,  again applying the laws unequally to different people depending on their circumstances?  Let's raise taxes on those people, over there.  If you don't like flat tax rates, at least make the changes across the board, affecting everybody.

c) My friend JDN, is it really not possible to train you to distinguish between taxes and tax rates after all these discussions?  You are an economist - and a voter- we need you to draw the distinction! I believe Crafty gave you 5 major examples where lowering tax rates raised taxes (revenues to the Treasury).  From what you write we have no idea if you favor raising tax rates or lowering them to generate more revenues.  If you are saying raise tax rates even further on the people who have the most options and the greatest sensitivity to tax rates, then I think all that will do is stall the economy out even further - and push unemployment up even further.  You should consider changing your thinking to pro-growth (Huntsman-like policies) sometime between now and the election. )
3873  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Liberal fascism: Warren Buffet mix of crony investing and politicking exposed on: February 16, 2012, 10:49:16 AM
Fairly long article and I don't think it is fair to summarize.  If you are interested, read it start to finish.  Many examples of buying in, advancing the public argument to have ntaxpayer money follow his to bolster his position, and profit to no end.  This is the opposite of a free market, opposite of equal protection under the law, and proves false the perception that big investment, big business, big banks, big favoritism is a uniquelyRepublican phenomenon.  This guy is a big liberal with no apologies.

There is nothing conservative (or constitutional) about government favoring one business over another.
3874  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Cognitive Dissonance of His Glibness: Breaking his Pledge on: February 16, 2012, 10:40:29 AM
"Today I am pledging to cut the deficit we inherited in half by the end of my first term in office."  - Pres. Obama, Feb 2009

Not going to happen:
Obama Budget Director says no budget in the Senate is Republicans fault because 60 votes are needed.  Yet he knows damn well that budget matters only need a simple majority to pass, 51 votes, 50 votes, sometimes fewer.
President Obama argues that the health care penalty for not buying health insurance is not a tax.

In Court, for the constitutional authority to levy it (or impose an individual mandate)  he is arguing that it is a tax.

How could anyone ever defeat this guy?  Hmmm.

One possibility might be to go negative - with your surrogates (lots of material available) - while the nominee paints a positive, pro-growth and pro-freedom path forward for the nation.
3875  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 16, 2012, 10:27:52 AM
JDN: "I too agree marriage should be between a man and a woman. "

What the hell were we arguing about?...............  

If we could all agree that, legally and constitutionally, gays already have all the pre-existing rights, endowed by their Creator, self-evident, unalienable, just like the rest of us including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  What we are arguing (IMO) is whether or not it is good public policy to choose to make special accommodations for gays, not whether their pre-existing rights have been violated.  

By all means, make a special accommodation.  Make it easy to get those other recognitions (end of life decisions etc.) if so desired.  Make it binding on no one else, private insurance companies etc.  And LEAVE THE CHILDREN OUT OF IT.  
3876  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 15, 2012, 02:04:27 PM
It used to be:  Accept us, we are different.

We did, pretty much.  that was not good enough.  Quickly it became:  Accept us, we are the same as you.

But gay people are not the same in the context of family structure, procreation, child rearing.  Gay people are God's creatures, citizens, Americans - they live among us, work hard, serve our country, pay taxes and vote in our society.  They are entitled to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and equal protection under the law.  That does not mean they are entitled to special accommodations - such as the changing the meanings of our words or our accepted institutions.

If marriage results in a bond between a husband and a wife, gays have, as every other person has, the liberty to choose to enter that institution, also the liberty to choose not to.  (Contrast that with other places in the world where today they still have pre-arranged marriages!)

A bond between a mother and a son or a father and a daughter is special.  A bond with a close grandparent can be special, or between siblings  Teo unmarried siblings might decide to look after each other for the rest of thier life..That's great.  It's not better or worse than marriage, but it is something different than marriage.

LA Times:  "What is the purpose of denying the use of one word — "marriage" — to a class of people..."

Yes, that is the nut of the deal.  You are asking us to change an institution that you choose to not join.  Accept marriage for what it is, and do something different.  Gay Unions was an idea call it something different.  Attach a meaning such as designating end of life decisions, shared bank accounts etc.  No one is threatening your private or public freedom of association.  Just don't tell me you are husband and wife when you chose a different path.

LA Times continued:  "...fully capable of taking on all of the child-raising..."

Right.  Do you see how that keeps creeping!?  We went from ending the concept of husband and wife to ending the distinction that having a mom and a dad is what families strive for.  

Gayness by definition is the opposite of choosing to procreate and populate the planet.  If we should choose as a society to put children with gay couples that they obviously born to (or adoption to singles) is a public policy question, not a pre-existing right. Gay people are not banned from being a part of forming families that lead to children, they are choosing a different path.
3877  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Government programs & regulations, spending, deficit, and budget process on: February 14, 2012, 05:16:13 PM
Limited time here but some numbers to help calculate

Workforce (BLS defined): 130,000,000 Non-farm, farm employment is pretty small.

(Participation rate: 63.7%)

Unemployment rate 8.3%

Number of votes 2008:  130,000,000

US population 310,000,000

info at the link.  I will come back to this.
3878  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 14, 2012, 04:34:57 PM
CCP,  The biggest reason we can't drop race, gender or orientation from our awareness is because it would end gender-based lawsuits.  We already have people between categories that don't know which restroom to use.

The first question on the mortgage application to prevent discrimination based on race is to ask you your race.
3879  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian: Spouse 1 and Spouse 2 on: February 14, 2012, 01:54:48 PM
My question was, how is that different from what single people not gay who never marry someone of the opposite sex experience, not how is not married different that married.

"Just off the top of my head.  Unless specific documents are drown up (yes you can draw up papers), a partner has very few if any rights.  If you are sick they can't visit you (Yes you can designate that.).  They can't make major decisions for you if you are incapacitated, etc. (Yes you can designate that too.) It costs money, time and effort; something that automatically given to a heterosexual married couple. (No, they had to draw up papers.)

More specific, they cannot file a joint return.(I'm sure that will change.)  At this time, Immigration Law does not recognize a gay marriage, therefore you cannot obtain rights through your "spouse".  I married a legal alien.  After marriage, she immediately was given a green card.  Now she is citizen.  IF I had been gay, even though I loved the person dearly, merely having me as a partner would not have entitled him to a green card, etc. (Nor are there any special immigration entitlements for a single person straight not in a relationship.)  We would have been broken up. (You would be back to the same rights single people have.) Many/most employers will not cover a gay partner on the corporate insurance plan.  Numerous other issues exist."

Add gay marriage to marriage and the proposal still discriminates against (single) people based on marital/family status - but you appeased one constituency.  The only real 'fix' (assuming the system that worked thousands of years is broken)is for government to end all acknowledgement of couples and family relationships, and based on your corporate insurance example ban all private sector acknowledgement of these relationships too.  A nation only of individuals so everything is completely fair. One collective family. That would fit the liberal dream - it takes a village.

Let's get gender off the license information next.  It is sooo outdated.  What business is it of the government what gender we are?  That alone could solve it.  Gay couples only need to designate one of the genderless persons as husband and one as wife.  We don't do a chromosome or pants check anyway.  If they want to be parents, then they need to designate one as the mom and one as dad.  But eliminate gender, open up gay marriage and we still are discriminating, single people, polygamists and categories I haven't thought of. Make private insurance companies recognize all designated spouses, attach additional pages if necessary.  Of course the determinant of where to draw the line is only the size and strength of the constituent group, not equal protection under the law.

One of my newest friends through sports is a gay man who is in a committed relationship.  We don't know each other's politics and we likely don't want to hear anything about each other's sexual life or thoughts.  He is a great guy.  He is one of God's creatures, like me and you  He didn't choose his orientation IMO, I don't agree with that theory at all.  He does not choose to participate in a sham heterosexual marriage as people like Billie Jean King used to do to gain legal benefits and acceptance that comes with that - so we have come at least that far in a short time.  I wish for him (and everyone)  all the pursuit of happiness possible in the world, not discrimination. I think my political views overall offer him more freedom and pursuit of happiness than the state-based opposing view even if that does not include a re-definition of marriage.  Ours is a gay friendly town adn he can choose a gay friendly or private life neutral place of employment, maybe not work for a sole owner homophobe but so what.  At work he is judged by his work and in our sport we are judged by attitude and competence.
"I didn't respond to your comment(Crafty's) because I am necessarily a proponent of Gay Marriage"

Then you must have some reservations too.  Probably the same ones as the rest of us.

3880  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Entitlements and how to go after them on: February 14, 2012, 11:36:45 AM
"The idea that a crash will then usher in a marxist system will not play out as the left hopes."  - Seems like it worked last time...

The dollar wasn't destroyed in the great depression and the USG wasn't drowning in an ocean of red ink back then.

Good points for the depression, though disastrous government policies led to a big expansion of disastrous government policies then too.  I was trying to refer to the (mini?)crash of 2008.  Their CRAp policies and RINO/Dem currency expansion led to crash and panic that led to bigger and bigger government including movement toward the Marxist dream of public ownership of the means of production.

I think CCP has this right except that it is no significance whether or not their destruction of the economy is intentional.  I think the bumbling C-student(?) Marxist didn't really know that promising to raise taxes, accelerating the rule by regulators, nationalizing industries, massively increasing the portion of resources consumed by the public sector and doubling the cost of energy on the private sector (until it doubles again) would actually hurt economic growth and employment.  He thought IMO that he would have the Reagan recovery at this point and win 49 states by doing exactly the opposite.
3881  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 14, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
JDN, My attempts at typing on the new handheld are not going very well.

"Rather I look to your Grandfather who simply wanted companionship and wanted it to be a legal marriage.  He could have just lived with his new found love, but he chose to marry at 80."

He married at 80 in my estimation not to form a new family and procreate but to pass on that respect for that institution to the next generation.  (Shame on those of us who did not follow.)  Still his later life marriage was a marriage because a man and a woman became husband and wife and pledged the rest of their lives together (and kept that promise).  He did not seek to redefine anything.  As an aside in a world a few decades ago where one had respect for their elders not just for the traditions of our society, he did not say 'what do you think', he said "meet your new grandmother".

As our conversations go, unanswered is what rights in law (inheritance, tax advantages, spousal privilege in law, etc.) is a gay person or couple denied that a single heterosexual person possesses. (None that I know of.)

Having the government involved in race was both controversial and based on righting a past wrong known as slavery.  For women it is partly the same although it is a myth that women were kept out of professional fields like engineering when my mom became an aeronautical engineer in the 1940s.  We do business with Jews, Mormons, Scottish people and even Green Bay Packer fans because their money spends the same as any other, not only because of a law against discrimination.

When snowboarding really began, nearly all ski resorts banned them. Copper mountain was first in Colo to cater to them. We joked that they were all gang members. Also a sideslipping intermediate boarder wastefully wipes off the untracked powder for everyone else.  Now all resorts except Alta, Utah accept them.  Why?  Because of a federal mandate?  No.  Because they are half the market and their money looks just like skiers' money.  The same reason LA Times should try to sell newspapers to conservatives too.  Their money looks the same and it would expand their potential market.  If they don't, we can address that through freedom of competition or we can pass a law.

Not every problem has a government solution.
3882  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Entitlements and how to go after them on: February 14, 2012, 10:27:46 AM
"The idea that a crash will then usher in a marxist system will not play out as the left hopes."  - Seems like it worked last time...
Good to see the NY Times sending a foreign correspondent out to the heartland for a story with all their own cutbacks.  The Rep. mentioned in the story, Chip Cravaack, is unfortunately one of the seats from 2010 that R's will lose this year.  The story misses the fact that life is expensive for the seniors on fixed income and for the hard working shop owner because of embedded taxes and regulations unmeasurable on their tax return.  His customers would have more to spend if they weren't working only to pay some kind of government burden during Jan-Aug months of the year.  To turn down the EIC, school lunch or a college subsidy is like the Obamites said about the super PAC - to disarm unilaterally.  You may oppose the programs but you lost that argument and are already paying for them - and getting back only 0.70 on the dollar even if you do surrender your principles.
Important points are brought up in the bigdog post.

First is that I draw a distinction a conservative and an elected Republican: "Why is it hard for conservatives to cut entitlements?  It may be because it isn't in their own self interest".  A conservative would not flinch at that, but also would never be elected or re-elected.  So we whine about people like Santorum of PA, about as conservative as they get, yet voted for steel subsidies and against freedom to trade.  He still eventually lost by 17 points after all the pandering to the electorate and reaching to the middle.

This study is old but backs up what was posted in more detail:

Still there are flaws in measurement.  Washington DC is the district LEAST dependent on the federal government for revenues?  Good grief.

Not all expenditures are equal.  Defense would seem to be a federal function while some of us argue that other functions are not.

My blue state MN is listed as receiving back 72 cents on the dollar and for that our bluest Senator Amy Klobuchar (Al Franken is to her right) comes into reelection with a 60% approval rate.  During her 6 years in Washington the nation lost 5 million jobs, borrowed $6 trillion, her state sends a river of money to support failure and the people love her.  Go figure.  At 72 cents on the dollar, civil war or secession might be a more reasonable reaction than reelection based on the status quo.  

A more apt question (IMO) than the one posed for Republicans is why do Democrats (and independents) accept the status quo.  Republicans I think would make sweeping reforms if they could get the support they need from the people.

The reform if it ever happens needs to be bold and comprehensive.  You do not end ethanol subsidies with the support of Iowans without a package that ends all similarly stupid and unconstitutional (equal protection under the law?) subsidies.  You do not eliminate the mortgage deduction without reform of the rest of the tax code.  In fact you will not likely reform taxes ever again when 51% of voters believe they are receiving goodies and paying nothing.

Someone with a backbone needs to step forward and point out that directing more and more resources out of the productive economy, whether it is directly charged to you or not, is a tax on your economy, a tax on your children and a tax on all of your out of work neighbors and relatives.  At some point with everyone else riding, there is no incentive for anyone to pull the wagon.  The load is just too heavy.

It was said about Japan in about 1990 that the only thing that could get the economy going again was bold reform, and that the one thing for sure their political system was incapable of was bold reform.  History proved that to be right.

Once we get back to about 2.5% sustained growth (where breakeven 'growth' is about 3.1%) and we are only shedding say a half million jobs per year instead of 1.2 million in one month, then the opportunity to make truly comprehensive, definitional reform of government spending and taxes will have passed, and stagnation and gradual decay will be our future.

At the end of the big spending Republican congress in Nov 2006 this country needed a sharp turn toward transformational change; we just turned the wrong direction.

Four years later the message from the early tea party movement was clearly cut spending first and shrink the size and scope of government.  That movement resulted in a pretty strong and difficult to repeat election result in 2010, which resulted in a 5% annual increase in spending, after all the shutdown/debt limit hysteria, and that was above and beyond the 'temporary', 'emergency levels' of the previous years!  

It is hard to take the polling of today (or the candidates that we have) and be optimistic about real change.
3883  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 14, 2012, 08:21:41 AM
JJDN ,I wish you would answer my point regrding different circumstancex.

Laws against "marrying" same sex apply equallly to all.

That you can"t make a husband and wife out of any combinatikon other than one man and one woman without chanvging the meaning of the words is a fact not an issue.

What is it in law they are denied that a single person is not also denied?
3884  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Fascism, liberal fascism, progressivism, socialism: on: February 13, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
Must give Crafty credit for recognizing that the administrations assault on Catholic teachings is not a Catholics-only issue.  it is not a birth control method question, it is not a religious issue.  It is a limited government issue. 

Luckily for us we have a firewall called the constitution to stop any encroachments by the government on our liberties and we have 9 justices sworn to make sure that can never happen.  (Why does that sound like sarcasm in 2012?)
3885  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 13, 2012, 10:55:20 PM
"refusing to serve a black or a Jew, refusing to hire or promote a woman, etc. is discrimination, IMHO an evil that has no place in America."

I moved the question out of race/religion for a reason.  There is no income or housing difference between gay and straight.  Aren't you making up a problem that doesn't exist?  Gays that I know are competent and conscientious in their work, and well-paid.  Employers I know are in need of and appreciative of competent and conscientious employees.  Businesses I know now accept (Jews, blacks and) gays as customers. Where is a sign in America that we don't serve gays?  Again, where is the problem that is in need of a government solution?

"...A man can marry a woman, and vice versa."

"But a man can't marry a man.  Or a woman a woman.  Where is the equality?"

You are missing a point, not just disagreeing with it.  A gay man can (under the law) fall in love and marry a woman, he just doesn't.  Some heterosexuals never marry the opposite sex either, not just gay people. Equal protection, different circumstances.  Again, it is a concept in law that the entire tax code and government is built on.  I don't see why you support it wholeheartedly with taxes and refuse to accept it here.  It may be a bad idea in your estimation, but hardly unconstitutional unless all of our government is set up exactly that way, not just taxes but government payments and services too.

Expanding on that point: Estate tax applies to some people not others. the 39.6% tax rate will apply to some and not others. Double federal taxation applies to some and not others. Food stamps, Medicaid, Pelle grants, they all go to some and not others.  Equal protection, different circumstances.  3.1 million households get Section 8 housing vouchers, the rest get none - and for VERY arbitrary reasons.  Even voting, some and not others.  Everyone gets to vote when they turn 18?  Not everyone lives to 18, therefore are/were never legal to vote, yet the law is considered equal protection.  Solydra, Chrysler, General Motors: millions of dollars in subsidies.  Dog brothers and JDN Inc: Nothing.  That is equal protection or the President should be impeached.  You make the call.

What I don't get is that you are arguing my political viewpoint and against yours (IMHO).  Most of these things are NOT equal protection.  The government is clearly favoring and discriminating in almost everything that it does.  Read page 1 of any IRS form, 'who has to file this form?' Some yes, some no.  It depends on your circumstance.
3886  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Science, Culture, & Humanities / Pathological Science: Earth's temperature fluctuates. Who Knew? on: February 13, 2012, 01:36:54 PM
Russian Astrophysicist Predicts Global Cooling

“We can expect the onset of a deep bicentennial minimum of total solar irradiance (TSI) in approximately 2042±11 and the 19th deep minimum of global temperature in the past 7500 years – in 2055±11. After the maximum of solar cycle 24, from approximately 2014 we can expect the start of deep cooling with a Little Ice Age in 2055±11.” –Habibullo I. Abdussamatov, Russian Academy of Science, 1 February 2012

    Bicentennial Decrease of the Total Solar Irradiance Leads to Unbalanced Thermal Budget of the Earth and the Little Ice Age

    Applied Physics Research, Vol. 4, No. 1 February 2012
Full Study:
3887  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: February 13, 2012, 01:30:43 PM
From Santorum thread, I'm not sure why that got copied to race thread?

Crafty wrote: "Of course state consitutions cannot go against the rights guaranteed by the US Constitution, so the real question is the meaning of the equal protection clause.  I think it safe to say that gay marriage was not on the mind of those who passed the equal protection clause; of course it need not to have been for the clause to be applicable-- but Santorum I think is on the right track here: Judicial Imperialism and arrogance.

Surely a certain degree of humility is called for when the people of a state amend their consitution-- especially when this step is to reverse a judicial creation of a right!  My point of view is that gay marriage is not required by the equal protection clause.  A man can marry a woman, and vice versa.

I think the real solution here is for people to be free to be gay and other people to be free to be grossed out by it, with or without God's blessing.

Yes, I am saying that people should be allowed to discriminate.

Anyone wanting to discuss this further, please take it to a relevant thread (e.g. Gender; Gay and Straight)"

My evolving view.  People with an agenda I think exaggerate the numbers, but if you are gay, you are gay.  If you are American, you have a right to pursue happiness.

It is bad business to discriminate against major groups unless there is good reason.  What the laws should be, I don't know exactly.

Marriage is a unique relationship where a man and a woman become husband and wife and make certain lifelong promises to each other.  Heteros screw it up badly enough, breaking promises etc but that is not reason to abandon it or change its meaning.  Marriage is the foundation of family, a man and a woman under one roof is the formula also for continuation of the species.  My grandfather got re-married at 80 so I understand it is not only about procreation, but in their case they did both keep their first marriage promises of until death do we part and chose that if they were to live together the rest of their lives it would be in marriage.

If marriage is a cross gender union, husband and wife, particularly aimed at family structure for child rearing, gays are entitled to their own form of commitments and choices.  I have no idea what those should be just that that other forms of commitment are different, not the same.  What role the government needs to play, I don't know.  They deserve all rights I presume they already have have of being able to will to each other, designate each other for power of attorney on crucial matters etc. just the same as single people deserve rights, but not the right of a spouse of the opposite sex unless he or she consents.

The key difference in marriage is that the agenda seems to be aimed at saying a mother and a mother, or a father and a father, is the same as a mother and a father.  It isn't and flaws in hetero-marriages don'[t change that. 

In housing, a landlord would be crazy to discriminate against great tenants, or a seller to discriminate against a class of buyers. 

In business, same.  You are crazy to eliminate people from employment for something private that has nothing to do with work performance.  OTOH, it should be perfectly legal to discriminate in a private business against people who outwardly make other people, co-workers or customers, uncomfortable, no matter the reason.  Right?  'Don't ask, don't tell' was strangely a perfect solution.  You keep your private life out of the workplace and only then is it none of our business.

Discriminate, not the legal word but to make choices, is what we do all the time.  JDN (who asked the question) discriminates against other states and climates to live in California.  Discriminates against other neighborhoods to choose yours.  Discriminates against other restaurants to choose the one you will take your wife to tomorrow, discriminate against other golf courses for the one you choose, against all other barbers except the one you trust and feel most comfortable with, etc.etc.  What are your reasons?  I don't know.  Those are YOUR reasons.
"My point of view is that gay marriage is not required by the equal protection clause.  A man can marry a woman, and vice versa."

For a gay or a single person, the law regarding marriage is the same for straight people or couples in similar circumstances.  If you fall in love with a person of the opposite gender, no matter who you are, you have the same rights as a heterosexual individual or couple under the law.  If that is unconstitutional then so is our entire, complex,  progressive tax system that treats people differently that are in different circumstances.
3888  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Electoral process, vote fraud: Easy registration. Project Veritas on: February 12, 2012, 01:26:41 PM
Vikings fans are excited to see Tom Brady and Tim Tebow getting registered to vote in MN.

Support ID check.
3889  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 2012 Presidential on: February 11, 2012, 05:50:05 PM
Post updated, sorry.
There are other URLs in my computer that could have been worse...
3890  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Housing/Mortgage/Real Estate on: February 11, 2012, 01:50:50 PM
"Government Bailout Actually Hurt Housing Recovery"

Yes.  The real force of the crash came from the size of the bubble.  every poicy I can think of was designed to slow or prevent the correction.  All the underlying causes are still largely in place.

Housing comes back when employment and income comes back.  Of course a big part of the employment problem is zero construction.  If you artificially stimulate that, you re-inflate the bubble.

We learned from that problems of letting the mortgage industry become 90% federal government.  Now it will be 100%.  The Fed is holding interest at roughly zero.  Savings interest is 0.  Energy costs nearly double.  Property taxes up.  5.5 million people left the work force.  Young adults and old adults moving back ini with family.  Fine, but no help for the demand for housing.  Or the affordability.
3891  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in America on: February 11, 2012, 01:38:38 PM
It would take a dislocated Uzbek to not know that turning control of the United States of America over to Joe Biden is a really bad idea friend and foe alike.
3892  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / 2012 Presidential: Gov Romney Addresses CPAC, Also Sen. Marco Rubio on: February 11, 2012, 01:34:12 PM
There are parts of this speech that show me that he gets it, looks like a President and sounds Reagan-like themes.  I like the part where he seems to know where the greatness in this country came from and where it will need to come from again.  There are also times I think where conservatives sense inauthenticity.  All he can do now about that is move forward everyday with clarity and consistency.  These positions are now on tape.  He doesn't need to shift away from conservatism or move to the center, he needs to sell conservatism, make the hard choices of governing within old fashioned constitutional limits.

One point about his background as largely an outsider, just a one term governor, is that he does lack some experience in the  political game, for better and worse. He makes political mis-steps, but so does the President.  Also note that his Republican competitors lack executive experience.  He makes a good point about how as chief executive in success you share and spread out the credit, and in failure you take responsibility.  Obama had no executive experience and sees it differently; governing is a game of always trying to gain personal political advantage.  The speech:

Also his running mate Sen. Marco Rubio at CPAC:

He starts a little off the cuff and speaks without a teleprompter, but when he gets going he is clear and passionate. WATCH IT ALL!  He said he did not want to be Pres or Vice Pres, not ready yet.  By summer he will get it that he cannot save the country in time as 1 of a hundred in the senate waiting until his seniority builds up.  If asked, I think he will serve.  He is not afraid of debating taking on the President and he is not not likely afraid of debating Joe Biden over the direction of the country, lol.  This painful process could actually have a happy ending if these two people could step forward and simply do what they are saying.
3893  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Uninsurenment Camps on: February 10, 2012, 11:49:53 AM
Thank you GM, great post IMO, WOW!.  One of my both favorite and least favorite aspects of participating in the forum is being proven wrong. I hate being wrong but knowing it sooner rather than later helps keep my foot out of my mouth as much as possible as I go about my day.  I have many times said and many times written that there is absolutely no precedent for anything like the individual mandate.  Dead F-ing wrong.  What could be more similar to the individual mandate than having you and your family rounded by your 'liberal' government for internment and more constitutional than having that particular law 'reviewed' by a Court packed by that same President.  This is barely an inconvenience compared to that - hardly breaking new ground.

"So why don’t they cite [this law and this decision]?"  Great question!!

Just like slaughtering your young, it is all "settled law".  If we are going to 'successfully' wage a war against self insurance and market based economics, then it follows that it is 'constitutional' to use every government power necessary win that war!  Instead of fining those who won't insure, maybe we ought to round them up for internment until the war is won.

i was also wrong about the right to an abortion being the only 'constitutional right' that we would want to be rare.  Hardly anyone favors internment anymore for people who have done nothing wrong.  
3894  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Housing/Mortgage/Real Estate on: February 09, 2012, 12:56:04 PM
One of my media issues but I saw a headline in our local paper about "Foreclosure Victims".

Who is the victim in a foreclusure.  One party lends the money with the right to take back the house if timely payments are not made.

One party agrees to make timely payments or give back the house and gets full possession of the house for that period of time until paid in full or defaulted.

In either outcome, I fail to see a victim.  They were maybe a victim of job or income loss perhaps, but a victim of foreclosure? How?

If you can't take the house back - in a timely and cost effective manner, who would ever lend?  How many homeowners would we have then?

I will be attending the award ceremony for JDN on this issue!
3895  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Santorum on: February 09, 2012, 12:49:08 PM
Like GM, I will predict a short-lived thread.  Support steel tariffs, oppose NAFTA etc, pander to the local constituency to get elected like everyone else does... okay.  Then tell us he is different and he lost because he held a strict line on principle?  Not so much.  He took his own turns sitting on the couch with Nancy.  So the purity test failed with all of the candidates.  Now the question will be how to win and get the best policies going forward that we can.

I wrote elsewhere, but Santorum's wins in Colo, MN and MO (plus Iowa) should provide a teachable moment to the frontrunner to go through his own policies and his arguments and get some focus, clarity and backbone before it is too late.
Must say that Santorum's wins this week came as quite a surprise to me.  He is the only candidate that did not reach me through mailers or media and he won the caucus votes from the activists who turned out by almost 3-fold over Romney.
3896  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Tax Policy on: February 09, 2012, 12:34:45 PM
Doug, I was using Mitts (Gov. Romney?) as an example.  Over and over did you notice I acknowledged that in my opinion he did absolutely NOTHING wrong.

Looking for wrongdoing was the lure used to get his private information into the public domain.  Now that everyone has his private information they (you) move to what else can we do with it, even pose hypotheticals that are absurd about what he has not done.  Doesn't fly with me. 

Again, what rate would you quadruple tax illusory incomes at?  Again, the inflation component of a gain is not a again, yet it is quadruple taxed.  Your story did not answer that.  If you can answer with a tax code less than twice the length of the Bible, then we may have an improvement over the current code.

This Crafty quote deserves repeating:

The wage earner does not risk losing money he has already received.  The wage earner does not have to put up his previous earnings in order to get the job.

I would add that the investor has already paid his FICA contribution when the money was earned.  Does anyone even know what the FICA 'tax' stands for anymore?  What are the second and third words??

Federal Insurance Contributions Act - It is an insurance contribution.  Like a pension, would you want Gov. Romney to be taxed all the way up on his income and then federally insured up to all or most of his highest annual income for his old age retirement.  I think not and same with the people who designed the system.

Social Security and FICA have already been partially repealed with the Obama political keynesian move to put a coffin nail through its biggest strength - that is was allegedly fully funded.

If you want to lower the tax on labor, do so!  If you want to further penalize and disincentivize the formation of capital in this country, do that too, but don't expect that the further lowering of investment with even fewer factories and employers hiring will help employment, national income or revenues to the Treasury, because it won't.  It's not rocket science.

Efficient investment is necessary for robust employment.  Hindering it kills off jobs and keeps capital from flowing to its most valuable use.  Does anyone ever look at actual results?  Or just focus group polling to set tax policy.
3897  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action on: February 09, 2012, 12:00:12 PM
"Or D*** advertised saying he will only accepted rental applications from females between the ages of 21 and 37?"

I think we should not go hypothetical on actual, traceable posters committing federal crimes they did not commit.  Thank you.  I've been wrongfully investigated and rightfully exonerated before.  The main difference between that experience and being accused of being a Jew in Nazi Germany was that at the end of my long, intrusive, humiliating ordeal, they let me live.
3898  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Tax Policy on: February 09, 2012, 10:34:55 AM
JDN,  You wrote personal and hypothetical about the advantages Gov. Romney had.  Deducting interest which is ludicrous, he doesn't need to borrow to buy a home.  They goaded him into releasing tax returns to look for wrongdoing, found none and then exploited his perdsonal information for political cheapshotting. Romney's homes didn't cause tax burdens to go up on someone else.  Michelle's lifestyle does.  FDR ( a Dem) was winniong WWII with less staff than the first lady.  If the idea is to stay on topic, please post what YOU think the rate for quadrupletaxation rates should be on illusory, inflationary gains.

Comparing with the average Joe (schmuck?)?  The American at the 50th percentile pays roughly NOTHING in federal income tax.  If you are counting FICA and oppose it, then good, let's all work to repeal it.

The poor do not work harder than the rich and I watch that pretty closely.  But if they did or didn't would that affect what tax rates should be?  Should we factor that in as a difficulty factor like they do for gymnastics or figure skating, or ... a wild idea, tax all income of all taxpayers from all legal sources at the same rate, without judgment from the government.

The nice thing about the Mitt and Buff personal stories is that if the rich are not in fact paying a higher rate, why are we so obsessed with continuing that failed policy?
3899  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 2012 Presidential on: February 08, 2012, 09:10:46 AM
Santorum swept MN Colo and Missouri caucuses last night.  Big setback for Ron Paul IMO who thought that was his ticket to be a factor in the race and the convention.  Big setback for Newt too who on paper should have been able to sweep these grass roots events.  It is a small setback for Romney who could and should use this as a teachable moment.  The people he needs first are still not sold.  If he enters the general election like McCain did still needing to reach to the right instead of focusing on winning the center of the nation, he will lose.

Very quick update from the caucus I convened last night in MN.  Our group followed closer to the discussions here I thought.  One guy my age spoke passionately for Ron Paul, very strong on anti-tax and anti-big spending.  He conceded that he didn't agree with Paul's foreign policy and that he was unelectable.  He said he would vote Libertarian rather than for one of the others in the election.Two first time voters to be also came out to support Ron Paul.  I tried to talk afterward with one of them to find out how Paul is reaching these people.  One lady spoke passionately for Newt, but conceded the same problems with him that we have seen that accompany his brilliance and his unique accomplishments.  Santorum only had one vote, considered unelectable, uncharismatic but probably the most conservative of the bunch.  Romney won our vote based on a perception he can win; beating the incumbent and changing course was the top concern.  Guest speakers from State officials.  R's won the state house and senate but lost the governorship in 2010.  A very fluid situation here with the thin majority in the Republican state senate particularly vulnerable, but a better situation than usual for one of the nation's bluest states - the only state Reagan never won.  I was reelected co-chairman with all but one vote - mine.  I liked the other candidates better for doing the work of the next 2 years.

I tried to tell the young people supporting Ron Paul that there are differences and their final vote will matter.  Supreme Court picks is the most obvious one, just look at the latest two appointees.  What I didn't get said:  The Supreme Court is kind of a buzz word for social conservatives (and liberals) because abortion etc. but the Court is also where the power for the big government they so strongly oppose got authorized or validated.  Look at the case for and against Obamacare right now for example.  The decision of whether that is a federal power will come down to who is on the Court more than the merits of the arguments (IMO).  There is no clause that says congress shall set healthcare rules and standards.  Standing on principle to not let a Republican lesser of two evils win and getting 4 more years of Obama will move you backwards for generations, maybe forever, from ever limiting the size and scope of government.
3900  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Six Years Since 2006: 5.5 million fewer Americans have jobs = more Dem voters? on: February 07, 2012, 01:15:57 PM
Copying this important line from a WSJ piece(and the Dept. of Labor) I put earlier in Glibness and Fairness to stand by itself in the election thread:

5.5 million fewer Americans have jobs today than in 2007

That would be very troubling if we had a declining population, BUT WE DON'T, so it much, much worse.

Why?  What happened / what changed in Jan 2007?

In 2007 Sen. Obama along with Sen. Biden along with Sen. Hillary Clinton, and Senators Reid, Durbin, Dodd, Boxer, Schumer and Bernie Sanders, all moved to majority power in congress along with Speaker Pelosi and 232 other House  Democrats, they took control of both chambers at once making the scapegoat Pres. Bush truly a domestic lame duck 2 years early and then they took the White House too.  New Mpls Rep. Ellison put his hand on the Holy Qur'an in Jan 2007 and together with his co-conspirators they  promised the transformational destruction of American wealth and they got it.  What they didn't seem to know is that employment involves employers, investors and a healthy, globally competitive business climate.

What is ironic is that there is actually more government money available to redistribute under pro-growth policies than there is under redistribution focused policies.

If Republicans cannot make that most obvious and provable case persuasively now, then we all deserve what we get.  Per GM, buy your ammo and canned food now and beat the hoarders.
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