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10201  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 13, 2010, 10:12:38 PM
"Informative article. But I fail to see where it fits in all this. Is it supposed to be an example how all Islam groups are hell bent on the destruction of the USA ?
I am sure you can do better. I guess we can also use names like Guy Fawkes, who (wanted to) blew up the houses of parliament and assasinate King James or the Tripura liberation front, that was forcefully converting people to christianity, or the protestant Northern Ireland Orange Volunteers who were coordinating terrorist attacks on catholic churches, or the KKK for that matter as signs that crhistianity uses blatantly senile ways of coercion.

Formally (by Aristotles Organon) your type of argument in a debate is a logical fallacy. Specifically, it is called converse fallacy of accident or Hasty generalization."

Just as there are those that wage jihad by bomb and gun, there are those that wage a stealth jihad against the western world from within. Does every muslim do this? No. Not every muslim is a jihadist, however every jihadist is a muslim. Unfortunately, they (jihadists) hold the theological upperhand in islam. As I mentioned before, anyone, including muslims that seek to reform islam face real threats to their lives.
10202  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 13, 2010, 10:06:35 PM

Religion of Peace?
Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't

by Robert Spencer
Washington: Regnery Publishing Inc., 2007. 264 pp. $27.95.

Reviewed by Bat Ye'or

Middle East Quarterly
Spring 2008
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Spencer, director of, is not a man to recoil from difficulties. In his most recent, solid study, he examines the current state of controversies in the United States relating to Islam and Christianity. He exposes the ignorance and misunderstanding that riddle many discourses on religions.

Beginning in the 1960s, the search for common points led too many academics and intellectuals to efface the oppositions among Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in order to distinguish essential common points. But the differences are vast: The totalizing Islamic interpretation of revelation gathers together under a single power the spheres of politics, religion, and justice, something unacceptable to the two biblical religions. And while the Bible does not mention Muslims, who, of course, did not exist at the time of its redaction, the Qur'an mentions Jews and Christians in numerous verses, most often negatively. Other differences include the contents of the sacred texts and differing interpretations of the prophethood.

Spencer's work is crucial, given the stakes of today's worldwide jihadist war. For example, he demolishes false equivalence between jihad (a warrior ideology that is structural to Islam and has been deployed across thirteen centuries) and the Crusades (defensive wars spread over two centuries).

He instructs those many in the West who do not understand the possibility of an Islamist-provoked catastrophe putting an end to democracy's comfortable political and social order. More broadly, Westerners rarely perceive that their foreign policies conform to the exigencies of international jihadi strategies—for example, that European leaders are constrained under the threat of reprisals to accept immigration and to restrain their own freedom of expression to appease Muslim sensibilities. This policy of submission permits Islamist propaganda to dominate Western media and campuses.

If Westerners do not understand the ideological language used to justify the suppression of their liberties, if they ignore the historical, juridical, and theological structure of jihad and its corollary, dhimmitude (subjugation of religious minorities), then they will understand nothing about current events. They will become—like their predecessors of whose history they are ignorant—the slaves of their conquerors.

Written in a clear and easy style, and not without humor, Spencer's latest book Religion of Peace? supplies the keys to understanding the challenges that confront us. He provides the knowledge essential to enable Westerners to defend their democratic institutions as well as the fundamental values of freedom and human dignity.
10203  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 13, 2010, 10:03:08 PM
Jesus refused his followers a physical kingdom, explaining that his kingdom wasn't of this world. Jesus allowed himself to be defamed, beaten, tortured and executed. He certainly never had anyone whacked for making fun of him.

March 08, 2006
Muhammad's Dead Poets Society
By James Arlandson

Read it all.
10204  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 13, 2010, 09:41:17 PM
"Ok, I hoped I am speaking with a man, well read in what he is saying, thus I presumed you have read at least partially the Qu'ran and The Bible. After this however, I am getting the
impression that I was wrong, since these types of comments really show a harshly ignorant side to what in general you come across as ; a well read, well versed intellectual of the right
wing position."

What I said about Mohammed is true. Since 9/11/01, I have made a great effort to study islamic theology, aside from the koran, I have read Shahih Muslim and Sahih Burkhari and islamic texts that discuss the sunnah. When a muslim decides to marry a 9 years old girl, he is allowed to do so as it was done by Mohammed. If a muslim decides to smite an unbeliever, again, the verses of the sword mandate he does so. There is no mainstream sect of islam that rejects violent jihad. Meanwhile, there is no mainstream sect of christianity that approves of the spread of christian belief by violence.

10205  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 13, 2010, 09:26:44 PM
"I cannot see here, or in any other definition OR academic milieu for that matter that labels it as a totalitarian political ideology disguised as a religion. If you really want to continue that
thought, you might want to read (or study again) Althusser and Marx, since what you wrote rings very closely to what in his opinion was the ideological role of religion in the social

**Christianity's impact on western civilization was to allow for a divide between the spiritual realm and government. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...."

Islam has no such divide. In islam, every aspect of a muslim's existance from the more intimate to the function of the legal system and nation-state is dictated by islamic theology. Those from within the muslim world that wish to question these core aspects tend to have the life expectancies of unprotected mob informants. Meanwhile, in the western world, not only is one free to defame christianity, one can often obtain a government grant to do so.
10206  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 13, 2010, 09:07:02 PM
Hi guys.

Sorry for the delay. I have had time to reflect on the answers, so forgive me for the long post. I completely understand if it goes below radar for being a wall of text.

Without gibberish, let me get right to the replies.

dear GM, thanks for your response. I have a lot of things on my mind concerning what you just wrote, and to be perfectly honest, I am a bit dissapointed in your blind righteous fury.

first of all. It seems a bit degrading, that you post in response a recycled dictionary entry about a topic, that I am almost finishing my phd thesis on, especially since it is a most
complex topic, devoid of any room for discrete simplification. It is specially out of context, because it even expands my idea further. ESPECIALLY since the title of this topic is
capitalized as Fascism with a big F. Lets forget the superficial semantics for now.

But ok, if citing dictionaries is your version of discussing humanistic topics, have it this way.

**You disputed the use of the term fascism in describing islamic totalitarianism. Is "islamic totalitarianism" a better term to use? Whenever we discuss a concept, it's important to clarify definitions. If an American guy is in the UK, and a woman asks to come by her flat to knock her up in the morning, he might get the wrong idea what she is asking him to do. The same words can mean different things to different people. The use of islamic fascism to describe the totalitarianism and oppression embedded in islamic theology is accurate, using the definition I am familiar with.**  defines Islam as

1.     the religion of Muslims, having the Koran as its sacred scripture and teaching that there is only one God and that Mohammed is his prophet; Mohammedanism
2.     a.  Muslims collectively and their civilization
    b.  the countries where the Muslim religion is predominant

**And when we examine islam, both in the modern and historic context, we see a it spread at swordpoint, imposing an oppressive theocracy, especially for non-muslims and women it places under it's domination. Mohammed never hesitated to kill those who dared to opose him , or even those that mocked him. Just as today, his followers seek to kill those who dared to draw Mohammed as a cartoon.
10207  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Palin phenomenon on: December 13, 2010, 12:24:19 AM
The MSM will never give her a fair shot. Anyone like her already has the deck stacked against them, unfortunately, she fcuked up early on and let them tear her up. She is, and always will be damaged goods as far as pres/vp.

Keep in mind that a good portion of the voters know what they know about current events from the Daily Show and late night talk show monologues. Before the last election, I spoke with a number of people that said they were voting for Obama and gave Palin as a reason why. When I asked why they did not like her, they often quoted lines that were never said by her, but by Tina Fey as Palin.

Can't fix stupid.
10208  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: To serve & defend our Constitution; we the unorganized militia; citizenship on: December 12, 2010, 08:19:42 PM
Cool. I wish more had your opinion about jury duty.
10209  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / 12 Days of winter on: December 12, 2010, 07:26:43 PM
10210  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Iraq on: December 12, 2010, 07:13:10 PM
Funny how the "vast majority of peaceful muslims" is never around when you need them.....
10211  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Iraq on: December 12, 2010, 07:03:19 PM

A pogrom in Baghdad
By David Warren, Ottawa Citizen December 12, 2010

Breaking news quickly passes into "archive"; but days, weeks, and sometimes years may be required, to reconstruct what actually happened. Sometimes there are no survivors of a crime or catastrophe, and no testimony to work with, beyond what forensic specialists can provide. But humans are not that easy to kill, and there are usually a few accusers left about.

On Sunday, Oct. 31, during Mass, Islamist terrorists attacked the main Syriac Catholic Church in Baghdad -- the Cathedral of Our Lady of Perpetual Help. While there have been persistent and increasing attacks on Christians, as well as on other religious minorities, all over the Muslim world, this one was especially notable, and deserved far more sustained press coverage. Many details are only now emerging, from the wounded who were flown out of Iraq to Rome, and other European cities, for medical treatment.

Read more:
10212  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 12, 2010, 06:29:54 PM
"...we are all rational beings, why cant we sit down and talk ? " A very enlightened gesture, I must say. Shame it has fallen on deaf ears."

**As a historian, can you explain how the talks between PM Chamberlain and Germany's leader worked out?

**A little insight into A-jad's less than rational world-view.
10213  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 12, 2010, 04:03:43 PM

"The War on terror supposedly started in 2001, with the joint attack on Afghanistan, in lieu of the 9.11. and was followed by more subsequent attacks, most notable of which was the invasion of Iraq under the position of hidden WMDs. Now we know there werent any. "

There were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq after all.

The massive cache of almost 400,000 Iraq war documents released by the WikiLeaks Web site revealed that small amounts of chemical weapons were found in Iraq and continued to surface for years after the 2003 US invasion, Wired magazine reported.
10214  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 12, 2010, 03:32:52 PM

   /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Show Spelled[fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
( initial capital letter ) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.

**From the start, islam has been a violent, totalitarian political ideology disguised as a religion. Mohammed tortured and murdered any who opposed him and engaged in ethnic cleansing, as well as having a 9 year old wife. When a muslim today asks "What would Mohammed do?" the answer is bomb a subway, cut a head off, slam a plane into a building until the non-muslims are conquered.**

YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America

by Mohamed Akram
May 19, 1991

View the full document


This May 1991 memo was written by Mohamed Akram, a.k.a. Mohamed Adlouni, for the Shura Council of the Muslim Brotherhood. In the introductory letter, Akram referenced a "long-term plan…approved and adopted" by the Shura Council in 1987 and proposed this memo as a supplement to that plan and requested that the memo be added to the agenda for an upcoming Council meeting. Appended to the document is a list of all Muslim Brotherhood organizations in North America as of 1991.

Notable quotes:


      Enablement of Islam in North America, meaning: establishing an effective and stable Islamic Movement led by the Muslim Brotherhood which adopts Muslims' causes domestically and globally, and which works to expand the observant Muslim base, aims at unifying and directing Muslims' efforts, presents Islam as a civilization alternative, and supports the global Islamic state, wherever it is.

      In order for Islam and its Movement to become "a part of the homeland" in which it lives, "stable" in its land, "rooted" in the spirits and minds of its people, "enabled" in the live [sic] of its society and has firmly-established "organizations" on which the Islamic structure is built and with which the testimony of civilization is achieved, the Movement must plan and struggle to obtain "the keys" and the tools of this process in carry [sic] out this grand mission as a "Civilization Jihadist" responsibility which lies on the shoulders of Muslims and – on top of them – the Muslim Brotherhood in this country.


      The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Proecess" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal.

Read more at:
10215  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude on: December 12, 2010, 02:09:33 PM
Very nice.
10216  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 12, 2010, 01:01:26 PM
Those that wish to bring sharia law to America (as well as the rest of what's left of the western world) understand incrementalism.
10217  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizens defend themselves/others. on: December 12, 2010, 12:49:02 PM
The left doesn't care about what actually works to reduce crime, the gun laws make them feel good. That's what is important to them.
10218  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 12, 2010, 10:39:55 AM
You mean a judge shouldn't be allowed to consider sharia law in an American courtroom? That's pretty bigoted, JDN. So when do you move to Tulsa?
10219  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Legal Issues created by the War with Islamic Fascism on: December 12, 2010, 10:05:02 AM
Vindicated by history.
10220  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 11:22:59 PM
C'mon JDN, what does the judge do? Quote the koran?
10221  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 11:20:53 PM
A muslim's wife gets lippy. He blackens her eye and then says "allah says so" in court. What should the judge do?
10222  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 11:17:40 PM
Simple questions, why can't you answer them, JDN?
10223  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 11:14:30 PM
I explained it, you have no response.
10224  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 10:54:51 PM

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

**So, say a muslim becomes a buddhist and another muslim decides to enforce allah's law on the topic. Is this a defense? a Mitigating factor?
10225  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 10:51:30 PM
So, a muslim wants to exercise his allah-given right to put his disobedient wife in her place, then a judge should feel free to crack open the koran or other islamic text to decide if sharia gives the thumbs up?
10226  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 10:47:57 PM

A German judge who refused a Moroccan woman a fast-track divorce on the grounds that domestic violence was acceptable according to the Qur'an has been removed from the case following a nationwide outcry.

The judge, Christa Datz-Winter, said the German woman of Moroccan descent would not be granted a divorce because she and her husband came from a "Moroccan cultural environment in which it is not uncommon for a man to exert a right of corporal punishment over his wife," according to a statement she wrote that was issued by a Frankfurt court. "That's what the claimant had to reckon with when she married the defendant."

The 26-year-old mother of two had been repeatedly beaten and threatened with death by her husband.

When the woman protested against the judge's decision, Ms Datz-Winter invoked the Qur'an to support her argument. In the court she read from verse 34 of Sura four of the Qur'an, An-Nisa (Women), in which men are told to hit their wives as a final stage in dealing with disobedience. The verse reads: "... as to those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them and leave them alone in the sleeping places and beat them".

The woman's lawyer, Barbara Becker-Rojczyk, protested, saying: "When Christians are arguing for a divorce they don't use the Bible."

Commentators, politicians and Muslim leaders criticised the judge's decision, saying that choosing sharia above civil law was a threat to jurisprudence. Wolfgang Bosbach, of the Christian Democratic Union, said: "One thing must be clear: in Germany only German law applies."
10227  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 10:41:39 PM
Sharia mandates that those that leave islam are to be killed. Should a judge consider that in a murder trial?
10228  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 10:39:18 PM
I'm not sure how to dumb this down for you, since this forum doesn't allow for crayons or hand puppets.

Sharia law is oppressive. It specifically oppresses non-muslims and women in particular.

It is wholly incompatible with the US constitution or any state constitution.

Oklahoma's law forbade judges from considering sharia law. It in no way prevents a muslim from practicing the 5 pillars of islam.
10229  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 10:23:00 PM

Notice the little problem in Stockholm with the sharia advocate?
10230  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 09:58:26 PM
Oklahoma's law was to prevent the imposition of the oppression of sharia law and other non-american legal systems on the people of Oklahoma. Funny how you target Israel over and over again. What don't you look at the oppression of non-muslims under sharia? Look how the Copts are doing in Egypt. Far better to be Muslim in Israel than a Copt in Egypt.
10231  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 08:40:23 PM
Putting a smiley face next to your stupid comment doesn't make it any less stupid, JDN. What race is islam?
10232  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Freedom of religion... on: December 11, 2010, 09:10:52 AM
Wow, they should have a law like Oklahoma's or something.
10233  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Obama Names Bill Clinton to Presidential Post on: December 10, 2010, 11:44:26 PM
**Iowahawk proven to have seen this coming!

Obama Names Bill Clinton to Presidential Post

WASHINGTON DC - Ending weeks of speculation and rumors, President-Elect Barack Obama today named Bill Clinton to join his incoming administration as President of the United States, where he will head the federal government's executive branch.

"I am pleased that Bill Clinton has agreed to come out of retirement to head up this crucial post in my administration," said Obama. "He brings a lifetime of previous executive experience as Governor of Arkansas and President of the United States, and has worked closely with most of the members of my Cabinet."

Clinton said he was "excited and honored" by the appointment, and would work "day and night" to defeat all the key policy objectives proposed by Mr. Obama during the campaign.

"I am gratified that the President-Elect has entrusted me with this important responsibility," said Clinton. "I'm looking forward to getting back behind, and under, the Oval Office desk again. As I have told the President-Elect, I pledge to do whatever I can to serve his historic administration by making sure that none of that bullshit he talked about during the campaign will ever see the light of day. Americans can rest assured that he will be safely confined to the East Wing, as far away as possible from any potentially dangerous office equipment or nuclear buttons."

The long anticipated naming of Clinton to head Obama's Oval Office team comes after a week that saw Obama appoint dozens of Clinton associates to his transition team including John Podesta, Rahm Emanuel, Eric Holder, Larry Summers, and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Hundreds of other Clinton Administration holdovers are rumored to be in line for remaining appointments, including Bill Richardson, Janet Reno, Webb Hubbell, Chelsea Clinton, zombie Vince Foster, and zombie Socks the cat.

"Let's face it, it's obvious I'm in way over my head here," explained Obama. "Anyone paying attention knows I am a disaster waiting to happen, and who can blame them? I mean, just look at the stock market. That's why I think it's in the best interest of the country that I hand over the reins to people who, whatever their ethical shortcomings, at least have a faint clue about what they're doing. Come on, man. I've got a 401-k, too."

While the naming of Clinton appears to have momentarily calmed jittery financial markets, it sparked ripples of disapproval at liberal websites like Huffington Post and DailyKos. The progressive blogosphere was an early key source of support for Mr. Obama's candidacy, but a steady stream of Clinton-era appointees since the election has left some charging that he had betrayed his campaign promises to bring them to Washington as part of a sweeping culture of change -- a charge that Mr. Obama vehemently accepted.

"Oh, for crissakes. Are you kidding me? Are you friggin' kidding me?" asked Obama. "Of course I betrayed those goddamned idiots. Have any of you actually spent five minutes with them? I have, unfortunately. Nothing personal, but I wouldn't trust these internet windowlickers with a plastic spork from Taco Bell, let alone a freaking $3 trillion dollar budget global superpower. Look, I may be naive, but I'm not stupid. And if Kose or Koz or whatever the fuck his name is thinks for one second I give a rat's ass about who he wants in charge of the Treasury Department, he's even stupider than he looks."

"Look, I'm sorry I kinda snapped there, and pardon my French," added Obama. "But I just spent the last two years surrounded by these starstruck moonbat retards, and I'll be goddamned if I'm gonna spend the next four with them parked in the next cubicle over."

Obama also announced that he had accepted his own appointment of himself as an Assistant Undersecretary in the Department of Housing and Urban Development.

"It's a fairly low-stress job that I'm reasonably qualified for," said Obama. "I really can't do much damage there, and it will give me plenty of free time for Oprah specials. Plus work on my next autobiography and re-election campaign."
10234  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Um, is Bill Clinton president again? on: December 10, 2010, 10:21:29 PM
We knew O-Barry was detached, but seriously, this is beyond just phoning it in.....
10235  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Going on record on: December 10, 2010, 07:40:37 PM
Housing prices will be down at least 10% lower than they are today, at a minimum. 12/10/10

10236  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Shanghai test scores on: December 10, 2010, 07:36:52 PM

Shanghai test scores have everyone asking: How did students do it?
The Christian Science Monitor

By Ariel Zirulnick Ariel Zirulnick – Thu Dec 9, 5:14 pm ET

When the results of an international education assessment put Shanghai and several other Asian participants ahead of the US and much of Western Europe, many Americans were shocked. “Top test scores from Shanghai stun educators” read the headline in The New York Times.

Meanwhile, many education and Asia experts felt vindicated. After years of saying that China was rapidly catching up or surpassing the US and the rest of the West in education, here was hard proof.

The assessment, released Tuesday and conducted by the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), measures academic capabilities in math, science, and reading among OECD member nations and a few dozen other countries and what it calls economic partners, such as Shanghai. The scores come from the results of a test taken by 15-year-olds in these countries. There was no evaluation of China as a whole. Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Macao were all assessed separately.

RELATED: US students halt academic 'free-fall,' but still lag in global testing

Shanghai trounced the OECD average: in reading, it got a 556, versus a 493 OECD average; in science, the score was 575 versus 501; and in math, there was a difference of more than 100 points – a 600 in Shanghai versus a 496 average. For a country that emerged only 30-plus years ago from the Cultural Revolution – when education was saturated with politics and many children lost years of schooling – the results left many observers with one question: How did they do it?

Experts ascribe Shanghai’s success to China's assessment that academic achievement is foremost the result of hard work rather than a good teacher or innate talent.

“Students not only work harder, but they attribute their academic success to their own work,” says James Stigler, a professor of psychology at UCLA who has conducted research on the Chinese educational system. “Chinese students say the most important factor is studying hard. They really believe that’s the root of success in learning.”

That emphasis on hard work is complemented by several other key practices: active engagement by parents, early efforts to build up attention spans, and families' emphasis on spending long hours in school and on homework while doing little else. Parents and students alike believe that buying in has a payoff – future success.
10237  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Internet and related technology on: December 10, 2010, 02:01:37 PM
Keep in mind those same cameras could be used to monitor you and verify when you are away from home.
10238  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 10, 2010, 12:49:39 PM

Private employees too can be and often are sued in civil court (and probably will have to pay out of their own pocket versus public funds)

**Private employees do NOT face federal and civil liability in addition to state criminal and civil liability for a single act. In addition, any monetary penalty for a civil rights violation lawsuit CANNOT avoided through bankruptcy. Any lawsuit against an officer as an individual is not covered by one's employer. An officer only has protection if the act was in good faith and within the scope of his/her employment. If you step outside laws, policies and ethical behavior, there is no protection against personal liability. Most litigation is focused on the employing agency, as that's where the deep pockets are.**

as well as being exposed to criminal charges for their actions.  And private citizens do not have the protection of Garrity.  Also, private citizen/employees
are subject to both State and Federal charges and penalties.

**Where would a private citizen face both civil and criminal charges at the state and federal levels for a single act? Example please.**

GM, that being said, it is not my intent to second guess or criticize after the fact police officer's decisions in the field.  I and I think everyone
agrees it is a very stressful and difficult job.

The two leading Supreme Court decisions that apply to IA interviews of public
employees are Garrity v. New Jersey (1967) and NLRB v. Weingarten (1975).

Police officers who are interviewed in a disciplinary setting should be warned that they
are under investigation for violation of departmental rules, that they are obligated to give
statements for internal purposes, and their answers may not be used against them in a
criminal proceeding. (added by me; private employees do NOT have this protection.)

**Do you think that a private employer could interview an employee with a LEO present and have any statement made by the suspect under the duress presented by the employer admitted into a criminal trial? I'd tend to think not. Can you cite a case where that was allowed?**

Absent a statute on point, a warning is technically unnecessary unless the employee
declines to answer a question. However, state Bill of Rights laws, where applicable,
might require a written warning. For example, 50 Illinois Compiled Statutes 725/3.8(a)
“No officer shall be interrogated without first being advised in writing that
admissions made in the course of the interrogation may be used as evidence of
misconduct or as the basis for charges seeking suspension, removal, or discharge;
and without first being advised in writing that he or she has the right to counsel of
his or her choosing who may be present to advise him or her at any stage of any

Constitutionally, the warning is essential before any disciplinary action can be taken for a
refusal to cooperate in the interview. Lybarger v. Los Angeles (1985).

Reciting a disciplinary warning is also a good practice, because it clarifies the purpose of
the interview and delineates rights and responsibilities. A typical “Garrity Warning”
Employee Disciplinary Interview – Advice of Rights
“You are being questioned as part of an administrative investigation of the Police
Department. You will be asked questions that are specifically directed and
narrowly related to the performance of your official duties or fitness for office.
You are entitled to all the rights and privileges guaranteed by the laws and the
constitution of this state and the Constitution of the United States, including the
right not to be compelled to incriminate yourself. You also have the have right to
an attorney of your choice, to be present during questioning.

“If you refuse to answer questions relating to the performance of your official
duties or fitness for duty, you will be subject to disciplinary charges which would
result in your dismissal from the Police Department. (note added by me; again it
is the same as private industry; the employee may be terminated for non compliance.)

“If you do answer, neither your statements nor any information or evidence which
is gained by reason of such statements can be used against you in any subsequent
criminal proceeding. (note added by me; in the case of a private employee to his disadvantage, 
such statements and information or evidence which is gained can and probably will be used against you
in any subsequent criminal proceeding
.) However, these statements may be used against you in
relation to subsequent departmental charges.” 
10239  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 10, 2010, 11:18:07 AM

Things people at IBM don't have to worry about.
10240  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Military Science on: December 10, 2010, 11:07:03 AM
Well, we better ask China for more money so we can buy more F-22 fighters.....
10241  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 10, 2010, 10:24:34 AM
Garrity and other caselaw says there has to be a wall between an IA (administrative investigation) and a criminal investigation. The administrative investigation does not allow for you to seek legal council or refuse to answer questions, unless there is a prior agreement between the employing entity and a union, which does not apply in most law enforcement jobs across the country. In my neck of the woods, the unions have no legal standing, you have no right to a lawyer or union rep in any investigative questioning for an IA.

As I said before, the "wall" between the IA and any criminal investigation can be breached if in going to trial, the accused officer wishes to testify in her/her defense.

How is this different from the IBM scenario? The bosses at IBM don't have powers of arrest.  As I'm sure you know, JDN, companies sometimes eat losses from internal theft rather than have bad press from a criminal trial.

Not only does an officer face jeopardy from an IA, state level criminal charges and potential state level civil litigation, but federal actions, both civil and criminal

The LAPD officers in the Rodney King case were cleared internally, then aquitted on the state charges, then after the riots, convicted on the federal civil rights violation charges. Nobody at IBM faces anything like that.
10242  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 09, 2010, 11:58:12 PM

Use of force by police in this country for the past 17 years has been judged by Graham v. Connor [490 U.S. 386, 109 S.Ct. 1865 (1989)]. Very few citizens have had the opportunity to sit in judgment, whether criminal or civil, in police use of force cases. There aren't that many criminal cases brought (cops, after all, are the only ones that society gives authority to use force proactively), and the civil suits are most often settled or dismissed before trial.

When there is a trial, what jurors wrestle with are the requirements set forth by the Graham case. When police must use force, the Court says, the force must be "objectively reasonable" with respect to the facts and circumstances the officer is facing, and without 20/20 hindsight.

The court decided that, "The ‘reasonableness' of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation." Also what must be considered are the severity of the crime, the immediate threat to the safety of the officers or others, whether the suspect is resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight.

The list of facts to be considered is lengthy, but its highlights include: the number of suspects and officers involved; the size, age and condition of the suspect; the known or perceived fighting ability of the suspect; the duration of the action; the experience level of the officers; the distance from the officers to the suspect; and the weapons (including the officers weapons) in the immediate vicinity of the suspect.

Law enforcement officers are unique in society because they are permitted by law to use physical force to compel others to do their bidding. Officers intervene in a variety of urgent, unpredictable situations, and their mission is to keep the peace or to restore it. This awesome power must be wielded sparingly in a democratic society. The public rightly holds public administrators, including police officials, responsive to public preferences and demands. When officers use force they must do so to control a situation, not to punish an offender.

Use of force by police naturally upsets onlookers across the street as well as viewers of the six o'clock news. Conditioned by fictional media depictions of sanitized violence on one hand and fantastic "megaviolence" on the other, most people have no frame of reference other than personal emotions to evaluate an incident. The average viewer has little or no experience with real violence and the chaos that typically surrounds it.

People tend not to understand even legitimate use-of-force incident dynamics; people are repulsed when they see force applied to a fellow human being. But force is used in relatively small percentages of police confrontations, and people should not be surprised or offended that police must occasionally use force.
10243  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 09, 2010, 11:30:40 PM

The Supreme Court has subsequently
held that a police officer
can be threatened with job loss for
failure to answer questions or otherwise
cooperate with investigators.
However, any answers given under
such circumstances cannot be used
against the officer in a criminal
trial.4 This ruling has led to the creation
of the so-called “Garrity
warning” used in internal investigations.
This warning, in various
forms, advises law enforcement
employees that they must answer
questions posed by investigators or
face the possibility of administrative
sanction, including job loss.
The warning also advises that answers
provided by the employees
cannot be used against them in a
criminal proceeding. In cases where
criminal prosecution against law
enforcement employees is contemplated,
the employees are advised
that they do not have to answer
questions but that any answers can
be used against the employee in a
criminal proceeding.
10244  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 09, 2010, 11:10:35 PM

Civil Liability
and Criminal
in Federal
Court for
The law enforcement
profession comes with
many risks, most of
which are knowingly accepted
by its members. As in many
other occupations, lesser known,
more subtle risks also
are inherent in law enforcement.
When officers are involved in a
physical struggle or violent confrontation,
they run the risk of
sustaining injury or even death
to accomplish their law enforcement
mission. They may be
called upon to meet force with
force, sometimes having to use
deadly force. All uses of force
by law enforcement are subject
to review; none subject to more
scrutiny than the use of deadly
force. Officers can quickly
become familiar with internal
review boards, citizen review
boards, presentations of cases to
local grand juries to determine
whether state criminal charges
are appropriate,1 and civil lawsuits
brought in state courts by
alleged victims against individual
officers (or their employing
agency) that allege wrongdoing
on the part of the officer
(or entity).2 Under federal law,
there are two additional and
distinct causes of action that
officers may find themselves
encountering —a civil civil
rights lawsuit3 and a criminal
civil rights prosecution.4 Familiarity
with these federal actions
will help officers navigate
the potential minefield of
consequences that may result
from one single action.
10245  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 09, 2010, 10:13:38 PM
You may call your union, however there is no requirement that an internal affairs investigator allow representation to be present for the interview related to an internal investigation. In an internal investigation (Unless there is an agreement between the employer and the union). In my state. unions have no legal standing. In an internal investigation, there is no right to remain silent and no right to an attorney.
10246  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 09, 2010, 09:10:49 PM
Garrity and additional caselaw have clarified that a law enforcement agency investigating an officer for misconduct that may be criminal in nature can interview that officer without legal representation and the officer must answer all questions truthfully or face departmental discipline, up to and including termination. A criminal investigation of the same incident cannot use the compelled statements, UNLESS the officer chooses to testify on his or her behalf in the criminal trial, then the internal investigation, including the compelled statements can be admitted into trial. There isn't much like that for those not employed by a law enforcement agency.
10247  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Second Amendment Protects Gun Possession by the Housemates of Felons on: December 09, 2010, 08:49:59 PM

"The First Amendment contains the freedom-of-speech guarantee that the people ratified, which included exceptions for obscenity, libel, and disclosure of state secrets, but not for the expression of extremely unpopular and wrong-headed views. The Second Amendment is no different. Like the First, it is the very product of an interest-balancing by the people... And whatever else it leaves to future evaluation, it surely elevates above all other interests the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home."
10248  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 09, 2010, 05:55:11 PM
The oath is to the constitution, not to never talk on a cell phone. Still, I will agree that if it isn't official business, it shouldn't happen. I'll be willing to bet that were an officer to be involved in an accident, IA would subpoena the cell records and if the officer was on a call that wasn't official, it would potentially result in internal discipline and/or charges.

BTW, if IA interviews a cop, the officer does NOT have the right to remain silent or have legal council present.
10249  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 09, 2010, 05:29:36 PM
LAPD is hiring. After 3 years on patrol, you can put in for Internal Affairs.
10250  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions on: December 09, 2010, 04:50:03 PM
Forgive me. I'm tired of seeing a very large, diverse group of people, the vast majority of whom do a very difficult job ethically and honorably, getting smeared by those who couldn't and wouldn't do the job, and are ignorant of it's realities.
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