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51  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / European matters on: November 24, 2006, 12:31:31 PM
Opening up this topic in order to post my news about Europe:

As I've mentioned in another thread (America Alone) there is a restrengthend movement of neo-nationalism in Europe.? Not mentioned in this news is that the policeman was coloured.

Paris fan shot dead by policeman

A French football fan has been shot dead by a plain-clothed police officer after a European football match.
The officer reportedly fired tear gas, then live ammunition in an effort to disperse a fighting crowd near Paris' Parc des Princes football stadium.

The group of 150 Paris Saint Germain supporters were surrounding a fan of the Israeli team Hapoel Tel Aviv, who had beaten PSG 4-2 in the Uefa Cup.

An investigation has been launched into the shooting, police said.

Paris Saint Germain fans have a reputation for violent incidents, with the club disciplined over their behaviour several times in the past.


The skirmish broke out by the Parc des Princes in the aftermath of PSG's defeat.

The police officer, who has not been identified, threw tear gas to break up a group of Paris fans surrounding the Israeli.

The officer was then chased towards a McDonald's restaurant nearby, holding the crowd at bay with his firearm before firing at least two shots, reports said.

Police union official Luc Poignant told the AFP news agency that the officer "had no choice but to defend himself and protect another person".

There was an atmosphere of high tension among Paris fans immediately after the game, which continued a poor run of form for the team.

AFP quoted witnesses describing a climate of "extreme confusion" in the streets.

Police reinforcements were sent to the area in an effort to calm the violence in the moments after the Paris fan was shot.

Story from BBC NEWS:

Published: 2006/11/24 10:20:07 GMT


fficer kills man in Paris soccer mob
By Katrin Bennhold
International Herald Tribune
French security and sports officials condemned racist violence by a mob of soccer fans in the capital Friday after a black police officer seeking to protect a Jewish fan of a visiting Israeli team shot and killed one man and wounded another.

The officer, Antoine Granomort, 32, rushed to the aid of a French fan of the Hapoel Tel Aviv club late Thursday after the Israeli team defeated Paris Saint-Germain in a UEFA Cup match, according to the police and witnesses.

About a hundred fans cornered the two men near the Parc des Princes, the stadium in Paris where the game was played, shouting racist and anti-Semitic epithets at them and making Nazi salutes, according to the accounts. When they began beating Granomort and threatening to kill the fan, the officer fired his service revolver.

A 25-year-old man was killed and another man, 26, was wounded. Both victims were identified by the police as members of a far-right group supporting Paris Saint-Germain, a club that has a long history of hooliganism among its fans.

"The seriousness of this event confirms the absolute necessity of fighting racism and anti-Semitism among PSG supporters," the mayor of Paris, Bertrand Delano?, said in a statement.

The Paris authorities have long grappled with hooligan violence in the capital, but tougher legislation has so far failed to stamp it out. There have been at least six incidents of major fan violence involving PSG supporters over the past 14 months.

Overt racism is a common occurrence at the Parc des Princes, the home stadium of PSG, with fans mocking black players with monkey chants and far-right slogans.

Sports Minister Jean-Fran?ois Lamour expressed dismay Friday at the "climate of tension and violence at certain soccer matches."

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who has called himself a PSG fan, has vowed to clamp down on the violence.

Granomort, who was in custody Friday while magistrates investigated his assertion that he had acted in self-defense, was backed by fellow police officers, who stressed his right to self-defense.

The violence began around 10:50 p.m. Thursday, according to Philippe Brossard, a journalist for the magazine L'Express who witnessed the incident.

Dozens of angry PSG fans started pursuing Yanniv Hazout, a Frenchman who supported the Tel Aviv team, as he made his way to a M?tro station near the stadium.

Assigned to guard a nearby parking lot, Granomort, a plainclothes officer, first sought to stop the fans with a tear gas canister.

"He said several times: 'Stay behind me! Stay behind me!'" Brossard wrote in his account on the Web site of L'Express.

"The attackers move in on him, insult him," he wrote. "He retreats, panics, tries to leave to the right, loses his tear gas canister, picks it up again, retreats again. The mob continues to move closer."

According to Sarkozy, some fans shouted "Death to the Jew!" before attacking Hazout. Granomort was kicked and beaten before falling to the ground and drawing his weapon, the interior minister said.

Riot police are a common sight at the Parc des Princes. PSG has several factions of unruly fans, but one of the most notorious is the "Kop Boulogne," a group known for its allegiance to far- right parties like the National Front of Jean-Marie Le Pen.

Thirty PSG fans have been formally barred from entering the stadium, and some are under orders to present themselves to the police during matches. But dozens of other hooligans continue to attend, often clustering in a corner of the grandstand.

Fr?d?ric Thiriez, president of the French professional football league, said he was stunned by what had happened.

"Football is not about hatred," he said in a statement Friday. "Football cannot be war."
52  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone' on: November 24, 2006, 11:46:53 AM
G.M., I am completely aware of the historical background of Mohammed and why you call him they way you call him. I don't think we further need to elaborate on this, though I want to point out, that we should treat historical figures with a grain of salt. That means we should be careful about judging them in our understanding of right or wrong, nor should we believe everything being said. As I restrain from calling Jesus a "pathetic hippie freak who lacked the ganja"? to a christian or calling the toras a "bunch of rotten paper full of shitload" to a jew, i refrain from calling Mohammed a "genocidal rapist" to a muslim, unless of course I want to provoke a fight with each of them.

At my wednesday regulars' table I had a brief chat with some of my friends. Neither of them knew Bat Yeor or the term Eurabia (all of them highly educated people following the events of the day very closely). This is because her books are put in the same drawer as those conspiracy theorists that claim 9/11 to be staged by the US government (who get wide attention in some circles around here). When I read this article I find the same paranoia the muslim world has of jews and christians just the other way round: the fear of a global jihad wanting to take over the world and all muslims are participating.

To say it briefly, I don't like such polemic writings very much. They throw all kind of facts and knowledge together with a big load of personal emotion and make up a theory. Of course a book always gets more attention then someone like you or me writing on an internet forum. And of course its much harder to disprove a whole book, as I myself had to write a book now in order to convince you of my position.

If I'd put an american evangelist from kansas and a russian orthodox from siberia in one room, those two most probably wouldn't have very much in common, except that there are muslims, who consider them christians and therefore thinking, both want to defeat their culture. But that evangelist and the orthodox wouldn't even be able to communicate and if so, most probably not have to say very much to each other. Now if you take a muslim from algeria and one from pakistan, both would seem very much alike for us; dark-skinned, muslim and of course? equating the same threat. But these two have not very much to talk about with each other, as well. Now take a magreb from Paris, a turk from Berlin and a pakistani from London. Not very much in common except us considering them muslim.

It is the nature of polemic texts such as those from Bat Yeor to throw a truckload of half-truths at you. Before you would be able to take one argument apart, having a hard time to proof that it is completely wrong as it is a half-truth, you're being confronted with the next one and so on. A chain of arguments its hard to either proof right nor wrong.

 I get the impression that there is certain faction in the US that is not so much interested in hindering Europe from becoming Eurabia (or enhance Euro-US solidarity) but pursuing own domestic policy agendas and grateful pick up arguments thrown at their feet like this.

Let me repeat; a lot of the problems Europe is having are of social nature. Similar to the problems the US is having with their hispanic and afro-american population. Talking about a global jihad conspiracy is only detriment to the integration of European muslims (which in some countries is very advanced and successful). Scribes like Bat Yeor create more problems than they would offer a solution for.

I'd love to see a "reformed" islam that is compatible with the rest of humanity.

I know a lot of muslims who manage this day by day with a highly acceptable result.
53  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Military Science on: November 21, 2006, 05:44:34 PM
How would the public opinion in the US react towards a draft?
54  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone' on: November 21, 2006, 05:06:43 PM
Maybe a positive signal amongst all the bad voicing articles around here:

French muslims:

"If on the one hand you tell people that they are French, but on the other hand treat them as outsiders, young men in search of an identity will feel lost.
They are faced with adults who tell him contradictory things. They are expected to get degrees, to be integrated, but in the end they face a wall."
55  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone' on: November 21, 2006, 04:59:41 PM
I don't think it's a done deal, but the trends don't look good.

Well, at least we agree that these are trends. As I wrote earlier, I don't deny that we're having problems with bad integrated immigrants in Europe. Not all of them are muslim.

Actually, Bat Ye'or is credited with coining the term "Eurabia". I suggest you read some of her writing on the subject. She is a Egyptian born British citizen who lives in Switzerland.

No, I didn't know that. Interesting. So a lot of american scribes picked up this topic from her?

Actually the term originates within marxism, if I recall correctly and not within the US. I'll look around and see if I can find some good examples of what I would consider european "political correctness" to cite.

That might be true. But political correctness for most Europeans is associated with Americans. Even though you may read some European media, there are very open discussions here. There is however a left-socialist movement in Europe which has problems coming on point and often reacting hysterically when it comes to the topic of immigration. If you want to call that a try of political correctness, I understand why you'd look at it that way.

Yes, but the EU as a structure is working to dissolve the european nation-state in any meaningful way, successfully for the most part, with some good but to my mind more harm to induvidual freedom.

I get the impression that Americans often equate Europe with France. But Europe is large with two very prosperous countries (Norway and Switzerland) not even belonging to the EU. From east to west there's great diversity, therefore when talking about Europe I'd wish you'd be more specific talking about the situations in various countries and not just talking about Europe as the whole of the continent. It would be more easy to argument.

So when the "Youths" light a car (or person) afire and yell "Allah Akbar!" I shouldn't assume there is a connection to islamic identity?

Well, basically I'd say its the lack of connection to their islamic identity. These youths are French. But the French society has put them between two worlds, kept in the twilight zone of the culture of their ancestors and their motherland France. They're feeling foreign when in Maghreb and they feel unwanted in France. How'd you react as a youth feeling unwanted in both your worlds?
Unfortunately the radical Islam now gives them strength. But you know the way youngsters are - as soon as they'd have their own job, car and girlfriend, they would let go of that and live like any other European kid would. There is a danger for radical islamists to start recruiting in this kind of surrounding. But there are also many youngsters which despite being angry are also angry at Islam. This may sound paradox, but most of these kids would just like to be accepted and respected.

As I've said before, France will face massive problems. I myself am not a great fan of french politics.

Khaybar, Khaybar

Thank you for the article. Still I think to find solutions for the future we'll have to bring some respect towards muslims the way we have to respect everyone who choses to believe in a religion. As stated before I myself don't belong to any world's great religions. I consider this a benefit. Also do I know some muslims which are very good people. Its hard to dehumanize someone you know.

I'm pretty much aware of the muslim brotherhood. Still we most be careful about not get lost in some kind of conspiracy theory. England, due to its Pakistani immigrants, indeed has bred a very radical movement of Islam. Again, this problem is more or less focused on London and not the whole of Europe. Though I agree on being very wary of such movements. As I already wrote to Marc, Germany has made first efforts to expel such:

You may not be interested in the global jihad, but the global jihad is interested in you.

I can't run through the streets and shoot every muslim which looks suspicous. Therefore I have to rely on the cilvil laws and organs of my country to protect me. And I believe the country I? live in does a good job. As many many countries in Europe are struggling to find ways to handle this threat in compliance with their civil laws and constitutions.
56  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / World War for Wealth on: November 21, 2006, 02:47:54 PM
Hello you all

As I have been involved a lot in discussions with Americans about Europe becoming the next Eurabia, I want to give the following to read, concerning a different topic.

Enclosed is a link under which you can find a series of articles, which are excerpts of Gabor Steingarts book "Weltkrieg um Wohlstand", literally translated as "World War for Wealth". While there are a lot of american as well as european authors who try to bring Europe and USA apart, Steingart presses on the urge for the US and the EU to cooporate in order to withstand the attacking (in economic terms) states of India and China.

Here's the link:,1518,k-6997,00.html
57  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Muslims, Nazis, and far right hate groups echo anti-semitisim on: November 21, 2006, 01:43:12 PM
Interesting historic fact: Himmler, one of the masterminds of the Holocaust, loved his muslim divisions because of their hatred for Jews. Also he considered muslims to be the best soldiers, brief overview:
58  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone' on: November 21, 2006, 01:31:42 PM
Hello everyone

Well, I'm this German friend. Let me give you a short introduction:

As I don't like everybody in this world to read about my political and social believes, I have decided to write in this Forum anonymously. You may know me from the members forum, Marc invited me to join the discussion over here. I ask you to excuse me not giving away my name. I have grown up in Germany and now live in another european country. I'm from a generation which has grown up amongst the children of the immigrants from Afghanistan, Turkey or Palastina (amongst other non-islamic countries as well) and know the problems of these youths from first hand expierence. That must be enough background information about me for now.

In your discussion of my points raised, you already make on predestination: That the takeover of muslims over Europe is scientifically proven process which evidently will take place. I don't think so.

I think in general, europe is very much in denial, from the top down as to the changes taking place around them.

That is not true. Some countries in Europe like France and England, due to their colonialist past, have always had to answer the question of how to integrate their former "subjects" into their motherland society. Scandinavian countries f.e. had to deal with this question at a much later point. The first to raise the prediction that Europe will become 'Eurabia' have been Americans. That is in itself a very radical view upon the processes which are right now taking place and IMO not reflecting reality appropriately.

A unwillingness to examine the crisis coupled with deeply ingrained "political correctness" prevents a basic discussion of the problem.

Not true. Political correctness is something that Americans have invented and certainly isn't deeply ingrained in Europe.

Statistics are empirical evidence.

They are empirical. But most somewhat reasonable statistician will tell you that there are exceptions to what statistics are capable of and what not. They first and foremost are not the 21st tarots cards to predict whats going to happen in the future - history has shown that most predictions drawn from statistics have not become true. Statistics do certainly reflect tendencies and thus are able to give a hint as how something will develop if it remains in the very same state at the point that statistic has been made. The larger the area and the more diversity of ways that data has been collected, the more inaccuraricies sneak into a statistic.

I guess we first of all have to agree that Europe is not a unified state like the USA. The EU and EFTA primarily are two economic structures. In the past years the EU has been joined by new countries which 15 years ago would have belong to enemy of the NATO. The new EU has a great diversity now, hard to make generalizations.

I'm not sure if the author intends to say that the UK and France have a better or worse problem with immigrants due to a colonial past. I'm assuming the author is aware of the ongoing problems ...

They are having a worse problem and yes, the author is aware of these problems. The french intifada you are talking about is first and foremost a social problem and no clash of cultures. These young people are all french - and most of them would like to be much more European than they're allowed to. France has done some grave errors with integration. Most probably not covered in American media are the attempts of the local muslim leaders to stop the violence.

I wil not further delve into your picture of Islam as being a religion of a "genocidal rapist". I will not take the standpoint to argument for Islam, but I would like to suggest that you dig a bit deeper into history. There have been a lot of muslim rulers which by have been much more civilzed than most christians ever were. Being an Atheist myself, I still have large respect for the follower of any religion, wether it be Jews, Christians and Muslims. There're aspects about being a muslim we in the west could only wish for that some of their followers live and express more vividly.

It won't be Europeans, as we know them now that we'll be confronting.

In my eyes this is a pretty paranoid view of the world. Do you know any Europeans in person?

Muslims are not one homogenic movement. The muslims in Europe are very different from each other, each having their own agendas. I certainly admit that Europe is having a problem with uneducated, poor and badly integrated children of foreigners. Most of these foreigners are coming from a war torn country or a very archaic society. Their children are the second generation here. Unfortunately those well educated and with more financial means, are much better integrated than those from the working poor.

There isn't the one muslim, as there isn't the one jew or the one christian. No devil with the turban swinging his sword, uniting secrectly to take over Europe. We have a very heterogenic mix of people. Some highly intelligent and some very desparate. But they're all together people like you and me.

BTW, awaiting Mark Steyn's book from the store..
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