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3901  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 2012 Presidential on: September 23, 2011, 01:19:14 PM
I watched part of it.  Perry was not articulate or polished.  Newt and Cain sounded good.  Huntsman and Santorum not too bad.  Bachman pretty good.  Paul is Paul.  At this point I would have to go with Romney.  I hope Perry can polish up.  I still like Newt but it seems he has no chance.  I agree with Crafty he also does not seem to be really involved - goes to Hawaii when he should be out campaigning?  I generally like Santorum's views but for some reason, I am not clear why, he turns a lot of people off - at least the beltway elite.   I thought it interesting Meghan Kelly wore a dress that was even brighter red than Bachman.  What is she running for? wink

***(ORLANDO, Fla.) -- This was not a good debate for Rick Perry.  But it also wasn’t a slam-dunk win for Mitt Romney either.
The two frontrunners have been on the same debate stage three times now. And here’s what we’ve learned.
Mitt Romney is very good at debating. He’s comfortable. He’s pithy. He’s confident.
Rick Perry is not a good debater.
Or maybe he’s just not practiced enough (remember, before these three debates, he’d only participated in five debates in Texas). Whatever it is, he has yet to find his footing. Even after three debates, Perry has yet to find a coherent response to the attacks he knows are coming: most obviously his past statements on Social Security. And, he stumbled badly on a question he wasn’t expecting -- but probably should have: what to do when that 3 a.m. call comes with an international crisis.

At the spin room after the debate, Romney campaign strategist Eric Fehrnstom called the Texas governor’s response to a question about what to do if he was told that Pakistan had lost control of its nuclear weapons at the hands of the Taliban “completely unintelligible.” Perry’s answer to the question started with “obviously before you get to that point you have to build a relationship in that area” -- a big no-no for someone looking to be commander-in-chief -- and ended with talk about selling India “upgraded F-16s.”
He even whiffed on what should have been a home run -- calling out Romney as a flip-flopper. He rambled and stumbled and ultimately lost any chance he had to get in a clean swipe. As with his previous debates, Perry seems to run out of steam about 45 minutes into the night.
Even so, the Perry team can console themselves with this: there’s no correlation between being a strong debater and winning the nomination. That and the fact that very few voters are actually tuning into these early back and forth between these candidates.
Moreover, Romney looked stronger because Perry tripped over his own feet, not because Romney pushed him.   
This goes back to Romney’s fundamental problem: Can he only win if Perry loses it?
As a relatively unknown candidate, Perry does have to worry  that these debates are going to start to define him in the exact opposite way than he is trying to portray himself.
In real life, Perry projects a swagger and a confidence. On stage, he looks unsure and small. 
These debates take on a huge level of importance now, in part because there’s nothing else really going on. As the year goes forward, outside groups are going to start spending money on ads, candidates will be sending out mailers, and world events will affect the debate in ways that we can’t predict.

Copyright 2011 ABC News Radio****
3902  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: The Cognitive Dissonance of His Glibness on: September 23, 2011, 09:39:15 AM
Brock is giftwrapping 2012 for the Repubs.
Thank God he didn't pull one of the phoney triangulation schemes ala the BS artist extraordinaire Clinton.  He would have had a shot at 2012. 

3903  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Clinton - working on his legacy or campaigning for Hill in 2016? on: September 23, 2011, 09:21:41 AM
""[Palestinian leaders] have explicitly said on more than one occasion that if [Netanyahu] put up the deal that was offered to them before -- my deal -- that they would take it," Clinton said, referring to the 2000 Camp David deal that Yasser Arafat rejected."

As usual Clinton flatters himself.   If only not for Netanyahu peace on Clinton's terms would have been accepted.  He totally ignores the rise of Hamas and Hezbelloh since the BJ in chief king was in office.  I will listen to Aaron Klein this Sunday as he might weigh in on this:

***Bill Clinton: Netanyahu killed the peace process
Posted By Josh Rogin  Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 2:22 PM   Share

Who's to blame for the continued failure of the Middle East peace process? Former President Bill Clinton said today that it is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu -- whose government moved the goalposts upon taking power, and whose rise represents a key reason there has been no Israeli-Palestinian peace deal.

Clinton, in a roundtable with bloggers today on the sidelines of the Clinton Global Initiative in New York, gave an extensive recounting of the deterioration in the Middle East peace process since he pressed both parties to agree to a final settlement at Camp David in 2000. He said there are two main reasons for the lack of a comprehensive peace today: the reluctance of the Netanyahu administration to accept the terms of the Camp David deal and a demographic shift in Israel that is making the Israeli public less amenable to peace.

"The two great tragedies in modern Middle Eastern politics, which make you wonder if God wants Middle East peace or not, were [Yitzhak] Rabin's assassination and [Ariel] Sharon's stroke," Clinton said.

Sharon had decided he needed to build a new centrist coalition, so he created the Kadima party and gained the support of leaders like Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert. He was working toward a consensus for a peace deal before he fell ill, Clinton said. But that effort was scuttled when the Likud party returned to power.

"The Israelis always wanted two things that once it turned out they had, it didn't seem so appealing to Mr. Netanyahu. They wanted to believe they had a partner for peace in a Palestinian government, and there's no question -- and the Netanyahu government has said -- that this is the finest Palestinian government they've ever had in the West Bank," Clinton said.

"[Palestinian leaders] have explicitly said on more than one occasion that if [Netanyahu] put up the deal that was offered to them before -- my deal -- that they would take it," Clinton said, referring to the 2000 Camp David deal that Yasser Arafat rejected.

But the Israeli government has drifted a long way from the Ehud Barak-led government that came so close to peace in 2000, Clinton said, and any new negotiations with the Netanyahu government are now on starkly different terms -- terms that the Palestinians are unlikely to accept.

"For reasons that even after all these years I still don't know for sure, Arafat turned down the deal I put together that Barak accepted," he said. "But they also had an Israeli government that was willing to give them East Jerusalem as the capital of the new state of Palestine."

Israel also wants a normalization of relations with its Arab neighbors to accompany a peace deal. Clinton said that the Saudi-inspired Arab Peace Initiative put forth in 2002 represented an answer to that Israeli demand.

"The King of Saudi Arabia started lining up all the Arab countries to say to the Israelis, ‘if you work it out with the Palestinians ... we will give you immediately not only recognition but a political, economic, and security partnership,'" Clinton said. "This is huge.... It's a heck of a deal."

The Netanyahu government has received all of the assurances previous Israeli governments said they wanted but now won't accept those terms to make peace, Clinton said.

"Now that they have those things, they don't seem so important to this current Israeli government, partly because it's a different country," said Clinton. "In the interim, you've had all these immigrants coming in from the former Soviet Union, and they have no history in Israel proper, so the traditional claims of the Palestinians have less weight with them."

Clinton then repeated his assertions made at last year's conference that Israeli society can be divided into demographic groups that have various levels of enthusiasm for making peace.

"The most pro-peace Israelis are the Arabs; second the Sabras, the Jewish Israelis that were born there; third, the Ashkenazi of long-standing, the European Jews who came there around the time of Israel's founding," Clinton said. "The most anti-peace are the ultra-religious, who believe they're supposed to keep Judea and Samaria, and the settler groups, and what you might call the territorialists, the people who just showed up lately and they're not encumbered by the historical record."

Clinton affirmed that the United States should veto the Palestinian resolution at the U.N. Security Council for member-state status, because the Israelis need security guarantees before agreeing to the creation of a Palestinian state. But the Netanyahu government has moved away from the consensus for peace, making a final status agreement more difficult, Clinton said.

"That's what happened. Every American needs to know this. That's how we got to where we are," Clinton said. "The real cynics believe that the Netanyahu's government's continued call for negotiations over borders and such means that he's just not going to give up the West Bank."***

3904  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Unions on: September 22, 2011, 06:28:16 PM
Not to mention abuse of overtime, false claims of disability, paid sick time for things like diarrhia, fatigue, anxiety, and more.  I've seen it all.
3905  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Political Rants & interesting thought pieces on: September 22, 2011, 02:33:35 PM
I don't know how accurate his predictions are but Dick Morris has been soothing the past couple of years to listen to because he makes bold Republican winning predictions.   "Have lunch with him" and listen how the repubs can win 60 in the Senate:
3906  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Science, Culture, & Humanities / faster than speed of light? on: September 22, 2011, 02:28:01 PM
 huh shocked

 A fundamental pillar of physics — that nothing can go faster than the speed of light — appears to be smashed by an oddball subatomic particle that has apparently made a giant end run around Albert Einstein's theories.

Scientists at the world's largest physics lab said Thursday they have clocked neutrinos traveling faster than light. That's something that according to Einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity — the famous E (equals) mc2 equation — just doesn't happen.

"The feeling that most people have is this can't be right, this can't be real," said James Gillies, a spokesman for the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, outside the Swiss city of Geneva.

Gillies told The Associated Press that the readings have so astounded researchers that they are asking others to independently verify the measurements before claiming an actual discovery.

"They are inviting the broader physics community to look at what they've done and really scrutinize it in great detail, and ideally for someone elsewhere in the world to repeat the measurements," he said Thursday.

Scientists at the competing Fermilab in Chicago have promised to start such work immediately.

"It's a shock," said Fermilab head theoretician Stephen Parke, who was not part of the research in Geneva. "It's going to cause us problems, no doubt about that - if it's true."

The Chicago team had similar faster-than-light results in 2007, but those came with a giant margin of error that undercut its scientific significance.

Outside scientists expressed skepticism at CERN's claim that the neutrinos — one of the strangest well-known particles in physics — were observed smashing past the cosmic speed barrier of 186,282 miles per second (299,792 kilometers per second).

University of Maryland physics department chairman Drew Baden called it "a flying carpet," something that was too fantastic to be believable.

CERN says a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab 454 miles (730 kilometers) away in Italy traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds, making the difference statistically significant. But given the enormous implications of the find, they still spent months checking and rechecking their results to make sure there was no flaws in the experiment.

"We have not found any instrumental effect that could explain the result of the measurement," said Antonio Ereditato, a physicist at the University of Bern, Switzerland, who was involved in the experiment known as OPERA.

The CERN researchers are now looking to the United States and Japan to confirm the results.

A similar neutrino experiment at Fermilab near Chicago would be capable of running the tests, said Stavros Katsanevas, the deputy director of France's National Institute for Nuclear and Particle Physics Research. The institute collaborated with Italy's Gran Sasso National Laboratory for the experiment at CERN.

Katsanevas said help could also come from the T2K experiment in Japan, though that is currently on hold after the country's devastating March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

Scientists agree if the results are confirmed, that it would force a fundamental rethink of the laws of nature.

Einstein's special relativity theory that says energy equals mass times the speed of light squared underlies "pretty much everything in modern physics," said John Ellis, a theoretical physicist at CERN who was not involved in the experiment. "It has worked perfectly up until now."

He cautioned that the neutrino researchers would have to explain why similar results weren't detected before, such as when an exploding star — or supernova — was observed in 1987.

"This would be such a sensational discovery if it were true that one has to treat it extremely carefully," said Ellis.

@yahoonews  :
3907  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / demcrat party is now the "marxist party" on: September 22, 2011, 02:20:55 PM
Rush L was pointing this out today.  The woman running for Senate in Mass. against Brown.  When did the Democrat party get hyjacked by total Marxists?  This truly is unbelievable that we have a candidate with the Democrat party with these views.  This used to be the stuff of socialist party candidates who no one ever hears about.  Now it is mainstream.   While FDR, JFK, and LBJ were big on social programs I don't think they were anything like this:
3908  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Further thought food on: September 22, 2011, 01:43:32 PM
"a true free market is inherently better at resolving class issues"

I guess my point is this is not truly a "free market".  On the other hand a truly free market would I think continue to see concentration of wealth to the top.   What is the solution that protects the virtue of both a "free market" and a "fair market"?

Many in this country rightly or wrongly believe the repubs are the party of the rich and the dems the party of the poor.

I don't.   But I don't hear any Repubs cadidate convincingly give an argument to reassure or calm the fears of those who have not done well that transfer of wealth is NOT the answer.

Well what is the answer?  Is there one?  I am not talking about the slackers and those who mooch of society of which there are many millions.  I am talking about those in the middle who are working harder and harder just to pay bills.

On Drudge an article points out that 80% of new jobs in Texas are taken by immigrants legal and illegal.  What the heck is this all about?   In NJ which has always been a big immigrant state I see massive numbers of people not born here working.  I just don't get it.

3909  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: socioeconomic class in the US on: September 22, 2011, 01:07:29 PM
Crafty wrote:

"but IMO the problem is liberal fascism/progressivism and the reality of "public-private partnerships", Fannie Mae-Freddie Mac, Goldman Sachs and the Treasury, etc, the complexity of a laws, regulations, and a legal system that effectively crowd out normal people and so forth."

Except for JDN the opinion is a true free market is inherently better at resolving class issues.  Perhaps this is true.  I want to believe that but am not convinced.  Wouldn't most people beleive we need some rules, laws and regulation to keep the plying field level?  But who can enforce those rules, laws, etc if not government?  The only other option is the civil legal system but everyone knows that is not fair or equal access and application.

The question than returns to how much regulation, laws, oversight.  And the problem with that is that government is of course run by humans with the same weakness and self perpetuations as non government employees.

My general philosophy is that everyone rich or poor truly have equal playing field to the best degree possible.

That doens't mean those with means cannot use economies of scale, use thier expertise and honest obtained inside information to make wealth.

But someone or some entity has to "keep them honest".  The free market I believe is not sufficient.

With regard to picking winnners and losers:

There is a big uproar in NJ that the Jersey Shore reality show got a 400K plus tax deduction.  Many states are doing this.  Giving such big incentives to entertainment groups to come to their state and shoot movies etc.  The supposed benefit is an economic boon to local business.

This whole concept is exactly unfair.  Why should the entertainment business get a tax break?  Whatever tax break goes to them should go to *all businesses* not movie or TV or cable program makers.  I agree government has to get out of picking who wins who loses.  Stop the damn loopholes, the breaks, the "incentives".  Everyone pays the same low rates - period.

3910  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Housing/Mortgage/Real Estate on: September 22, 2011, 12:53:25 PM
thanks PP
3911  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Housing/Mortgage/Real Estate on: September 20, 2011, 03:38:48 PM
Do you think mortgage rates will continue down?
3912  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: socioeconomic class in the US on: September 20, 2011, 03:37:26 PM
"Ever wonder why the left hates the "money as speech" concept? Because they control the MSM and  as such, thus wish to silence alternate voices that are funded by freely given money."

Maybe.  I thought it was because (in theory) the wealthy will have unfair advantage with lobbyists, access, influence.

Like Michael Savage states, look at the power of Jeff Immelt.  Look at the power of Buffett.  One gives advice on government policy all the while CEO of a multinational corp. making millions off the same policies.  Reminiscent of revolving door of Fed people and Goldman Sachs jobs.

Buffett goes and talks to the Prez and makes $300 million dollars on BofA in roughly a day. 
3913  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / solargate on: September 20, 2011, 01:11:01 PM

Great one; genius for the ages; most brilliant President we have ever had;

lost money in a stock he claims he didn't even know he invested in while he was lobbying for the company.

This is impeachment stuff.  Though I guess he was a senator at the time?

Here comes the what "is is" stuff and she had sex with me not vice versa stuff.  Oh and how can I forget.  A "right wing conspiracy".  And racist stuff will of course be thrown in.

I guess no fifth spot on Mt Rushmore?
3914  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: socioeconomic class in the US on: September 20, 2011, 11:44:43 AM
"Why can't I use any amount of money I wish to give to support any cause I wish to support and advocate for in a free society?"

Well that is one side.  The flip side is that those who give more money have more access and more influence right or wrongly.

No doubt the courts have opinions on this.  Obviously there are volumes and libraries filled with stuff about this.

The problem is that money corrupts and makes society less free and with less equality.  But I do not have any good answer.  It just is that way.  Always has been and always will be.  I still believe our society is still the best in attempting to make things equal - at least in theory.  Reality is a different story.  Perfection does not exist.

3915  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 2012 Presidential on: September 20, 2011, 10:52:11 AM
"Mr. Cain's plan has all the potential to make his 9-9-9 Plan a 29-29-29 Plan following the European welfare state."  In other words, don't open that door!"

Mr Cain himself already opened that door when he said the plan could always be adjusted and gave as an example to 8-8-8 for certain groups or situations!

Don't forget it was reported he also has stage 4 colon cancer.  I am saddened to say by definition that is not curable.
3916  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: socioeconomic class in the US on: September 20, 2011, 10:48:16 AM
"I repeat, the concentration of wealth in the US is due to the interventions of government."

Well I don't think it is so black and white.

We might very well pay far more in electricity, communications, water and so forth.  Bell's were broken up by government.

The cost of political campaigns is without a doubt a big factor in the corruption of our politicians.   Yet the same people here who argue for keeping government out of the business sector will also call for unlimited political donations as "freedom of speech".

I hear the arguments given on the board. 
I don't know if this is convincing to the middle class which seems to be a voting "group" the Dems are targeting.
We will see.  It seems like the class warfare thing is more than anything else what drives the voting pendulum back and forth between crat and can.

Curiously Newt made a point of ending *Republican* government medling/picking winners and losers and everyone on the right got all huffy at Newt.  He was/is also right.  No one is listening.  Neither side has the answer that is convincing many people who are not already part of the choir, I think.

3917  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: socioeconomic class in the US on: September 19, 2011, 05:38:55 PM

You make my point.

That is why the Repubs will always have a fight on their hands.
3918  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / socioeconomic class in the US on: September 19, 2011, 05:25:27 PM
Nothing fancy about the post below right off Drudge.  It does speak to a topic I have mentioned and I think JDN also has expressed concern.  I am hardly a fan of Bernie Sanders of Vermont yet it is an astounding stat when he says the top 400 wealthiest people in the US (I assume he got his information from Forbes) have as much wealth as the bottom 150 *million*.
Redistribution is a solution I abhor.  Yet there has to be some other way of improving the playing field. Closing loopholes only wealthy people can enjoy. The ability to pay for a legal system that few can enjoy without limit.
The power and influence that money buys.  No Repub to my knowledge ever adresses this other than trickle down talk, or "everyone has the same chance to succeed". No system is perfectly fair.  And in all systems, communist, dictator, monarchy, democratic all have those at the top with advantage.  Our system does offer some hope those without the advantage can get ahead yet the top 400 have the wealth of the bottom 150 million?  How can anyone not think this is insane?

****September 17, 2011, 4:26 pm
Wall Street Protest Begins, With Demonstrators Blocked

Robert Stolarik for The New York Times
Protestors gathered in Lower Manhattan for what some called the United States Day of Rage.
For months the protesters had planned to descend on Wall Street on a Saturday and occupy parts of it as an expression of anger over a financial system that they say favors the rich and powerful at the expense of ordinary citizens.

As it turned out, the demonstrators found much of their target off limits on Saturday as the city shut down sections of Wall Street near the New York Stock Exchange and Federal Hall well before their arrival.

By 10 a.m., metal barricades manned by police officers ringed the blocks of Wall Street between Broadway and William Street to the east. (In a statement, Paul J. Browne, the Police Department’s chief spokesman said, “A protest area was established on Broad Street at Exchange Street, next to the stock exchange, but protesters elected not to use it.”)

Organizers, promoters and supporters called the day, which had been widely discussed on Twitter and other social media sites, simply September 17. Some referred to it as the United States Day of Rage, an apparent reference to a series of disruptive protests against the Vietnam War held in Chicago in 1969.

The idea, according to some organizers, was to camp out for weeks or even months to replicate the kind, if not the scale, of protests that erupted earlier this year in places as varied as Egypt, Spain and Israel.

Bill Steyert, 68, who lives in Forest Hills, Queens, stood near the barricades at Wall Street and Broadway and shouted, “Shut down Wall Street, 12 noon, you’re all invited,” as tourists gazed quizzically at him.
Talking to a reporter, he elaborated, “You need a scorecard to keep track of all the things that corporations have done that are bad for this country.”

Nearby, Micah Chamberlain, 23, a line cook from Columbus, Ohio, held up a sign reading “End the Oligarchy” and said he had hitchhiked to New York. “There are millions of people in this county without jobs,” he said. “And 1 percent of the people have 99 percent of the money.”

Throughout the afternoon hundreds of demonstrators gathered in parks and plazas in Lower Manhattan. They held teach-ins, engaged in discussion and debate and waved signs with messages like “Democracy Not Corporatization” or “Revoke Corporate Personhood.”

Organizers said the rally was meant to be diverse, and not all of the participants were on the left. Followers of the fringe political candidate Lyndon LaRouche formed a choir near Bowling Green and sang “The Star Spangled Banner” and “The Battle Hymn of the Republic.” Nearby, anarchists carried sleeping bags and tents.

At one point in the early afternoon, dozens of protesters marched around the famous bronze bull on lower Broadway. Among them was Dave Woessner, 31, a student at Harvard Divinity School.

“When you idealize financial markets as salvific you embrace the idea that profit is all that matters,” he said.

A few minutes later about 15 people briefly sat down on a sidewalk on Broadway, leaning against a metal barricade that blocked access to Wall Street. For a moment things grew tense as officers converged and a police chief shoved a newspaper photographer from behind.

After a police lieutenant used a megaphone to tell those sitting on the sidewalk that they were subject to arrest the protesters got up and marched south.

Mr. Browne said no permits had been sought for the demonstration but plans for it “were well known publicly.”

Mr. Browne said two people in bandanna masks were taken into custody for trying to enter a building at Broadway and Liberty Street that houses Bank of America offices. A third person fled.

As a chilly darkness descended, a few hundred people realized one of the day’s objectives by setting foot onto Wall Street after a quick march through winding streets, trailed by police scooters.

At William Street, they were blocked from proceeding toward the stock exchange, and the march ended in front of a Greek Revival building housing Cipriani Wall Street. Patrons on a second-floor balcony peered down.

As some of the patrons laughed and raised drinks, the protesters responded by pointing at them and chanting “pay your share.”***

3919  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Clinton prepares to jump from the SS Obamatanic on: September 19, 2011, 04:47:09 PM
"We need to put strong Democratic pressure on President Obama in the name of poor and working people” said Cornel West, author and professor at Princeton University who has been highly critical of Mr. Obama’s tenure since helping him get elected in 2008. “His administration has tilted too much toward Wall Street, we need policies that empower Main Street.”

I wonder what exactly libs have in mind.  Let's see. Leave Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Germany, Okinowa, throw Israel to Iran, forget defense, steal the "wealth" from every person who makes over 200K, force everyone into unions, throw more money to "urban" blight, pay for all abortions, three school meals a day, triple the number government jobs, or just enslave all white heterosexual males.

3920  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Unions on: September 17, 2011, 01:44:07 PM

"He now calls the Rodney King case "Media Brutality"."

Why isn't that little Vanderbilt descendent Anderson Cooper with his "keeping *them* (never him) honest doing an exposee of this?
3921  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: The Fed, Monetary Policy, Inflation, US Dollar & other currencies, & Gold/Silver on: September 17, 2011, 01:40:35 PM
Great idea for toilet paper!
3922  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Unions on: September 17, 2011, 01:33:25 PM
Sometimes in the medical field I feel like I am "damned if I do and damned if I don't".

It does seem like police officers are often in the same boat.

Remembering Rodney King the MSM vilified the police officers to no end.  Watching the video it does appear they may have used excessive force to keep King from persistantly getting up.

Yet after listening to one of the defense arguments one does have to question why the hell was Rodney King NOT listening to the officers call to stay down and not move?

If an officer orders someone to give in you don't keep fighting the officer.  Or I guess in this day and age it is ok?  If a minority?
3923  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Privacy, Big Brother (State and Corporate) & the 4th Amendment on: September 17, 2011, 01:25:20 PM
"In my humble opinion it would make more sense to offer physical education classes in martial arts and self-defense.  Strength and Honor is the solution to the Bully."

"You would just make the bullies stronger"

Both seem like good points.  I guess the question is moot anyway as I could not see martial arts being allowed in public schools for two reasons:

not politically correct
liability issues

That suggested, I am no expert in martial arts but did have past exposure with a few different instructors.  It seems like the ethical? ones IMveryHO would teach martial arts more to avoid conflict and too use physical means only as last resort.

"If they really want to help kids that are bullied, they should educate the parents to move, home school their kids, help the kids learn it gets better when they grow up, or see if it is possible to whip the kid into fighting shape or something so he can defend himself. Yelling at bullies isn't going to change their nature."

I guess every case is unique in it's own way.  I would rather the bully get the penalty.  If discipline at school doesn't work, then get the law involved (assualt or and battery).

If the bullying is so bad (like with gangs) then yea I guess getting the heck out of the area is best or the only means of really doing anything.

The "karate kid" thing is just a movie anyway.

3924  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 2012 Presidential on: September 17, 2011, 09:50:10 AM
At this time she needs to stay in Congress.  I hate to say it but she has this look that reminds of Pelosi. 

As for Leno I don't recall he moonlights as a journolist.  Why is he even grilling her with questions?  I don't watch him or his ilk but could anyone imagine him grilling Brock or Pelosi like that?

Just more Hollywood crap as far as I am concerned.
3925  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Anti-semitism & Jews on: September 16, 2011, 04:57:31 PM
"Cultures do change, even profoundly—look at Germany's breathtaking leap from Nazism into liberal democracy."

Well yeah, only after millions of dead Germans and the obliteration of their citiesand 3rd reich leaders all dead or chased around the world.

Perhaps that is the lesson we will eventually learn about what will "change" Islamic culture.  I hope not but it certainly seems that way from where I sit at this time in history.
3926  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Clinton prepares to jump from the SS Obamatanic on: September 16, 2011, 01:19:44 PM
I am wondering if Bloomberg will run at least eventually.  He is technically a Republican but in reality he is a big liberal Dem; perhaps more pro business than most Dems but nonetheless a big lib Dem.
3927  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 2012 Presidential on: September 16, 2011, 11:59:24 AM
Ponzis are illegal unless it is through the US government.

Republicans are not allowed to call it what it is.  Only liberals.
3928  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Britain: 1984; on the way here to the US on: September 16, 2011, 11:53:42 AM
Enough is enough.  Personally I am fed up:

***3-Year-Olds Branded “Racist,” “Homophobic” Put In Government Database

Kids’ future careers jeopardized by committing hate crime of saying the word “gay”

Paul Joseph Watson
Thursday, September 15, 2011

Over 30,000 British schoolchildren, some as young as three, have had their names registered on a government database and branded “racist” or “homophobic” for using playground insults, infractions that could impact their future careers.

The shocking figures were disclosed after civil liberties group the Manifesto Club made a Freedom of Information Act request which betrayed the fact that kids who used petty jibes are now being treated as thought criminals by education authorities.

34,000 incidents of “racism” in total were reported for the year 2009-2010, with nursery school toddlers as young as three being put on a state database for using the words “gay” and “lesbian”. One child who called another “broccoli head” was also reported to authorities. Other cases included a child who used the word “gaylord,” while another who told a teacher “this work is gay,” was also added to the thought crime database.

The majority of the reported cases involved primary school children.

“The record can be passed from primaries to secondaries or when a pupil moves between schools,” reports the Daily Mail.

A d v e r t i s e m e n t
“And if schools are asked for a pupil reference by a future employer or a university, the record could be used as the basis for it, meaning the pettiest of incidents has the potential to blight a child for life.”

Schools are being pressured to report such incidents to authorities and face punishments for not doing so under anti-bullying policies.

This is a clear example of how hate crime laws have brazenly been hijacked by the state to get children institutionalized on criminal databases at an early age. This is about the state dictating what your child can think and say – it’s the thought police on steroids.

Orwell talked about the state reducing language via Newspeak in his book 1984. By eliminating the very words that come out of children’s mouths and punishing them for thinking certain thoughts, all critical thinking is ultimately abolished, and Big Brother assumes the supreme power to dictate reality – a dictatorship over our very minds.

3929  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Clinton prepares to jump from the SS Obamatanic on: September 16, 2011, 10:14:53 AM
So far she continues to say she is not interested in a run.  We all know her word means nothing.

Like Crafty has pointed out over the years - what has she ever accomplished?  To date that question still rings true.

I can only pray we will never have another Clinton run again.  8 yrs of them was more than enough for me.

Other Dems are also jumping ship.  Every man for himself I guess.
3930  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Here is another study on: September 14, 2011, 02:49:22 PM
I don't have any children but if I did I would resoundingly encourage him and her to get vaccinated.  I strongly recommend it to all adult women I see under age 26.  Most are sexually active.  Asking them to use condoms is nice but not effective.  They all have boyfriends and are convinced their boyfriends have or would never cheat.  I had one girl age 17 who admitted to being sexually active with her "boyfriend"  get totally indignant when I strongly suggested she get vaccinated and read up about gardisal on the net.  She glared at me knowing full well her boyfriend was, is, and always will be her only love - forever! wink 
Doug, without a doubt you did the exact right thing in portecting your children.  I do agree with Bachman that parents and young adults should have a choice but otherwise she is nuts to put it bluntly.
3931  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / prevalence of venereal warts/cancer disease on: September 14, 2011, 02:41:44 PM
While Prof. (emeritus in her own mind) Ann Coulter, Phd, MD. MSc was on Hannity radio yesterday "teaching" us cervical cancer is a rare disease she neglected to note the vector that causes it is truly epidemic:
3932  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / GM: on: September 14, 2011, 02:34:09 PM
 grin grin grin

I look forward to reading more analysis about this and am totally astounded.  This IS a big deal (big "f" deal to quote the quotable VP Biden grin).   Apparantly many of my fellow Jewish Americans are waking up to the realization they are being used:

By Dick Morris And Eileen McGann09.14.2011
The smashing victory of Republican Bob Turner in the special election for the Congressional seat held for decades by Chuck Schumer and Anthony Weiner sends a pointed warning to House Democrats who were formerly comfortable in their “safe” Democratic districts: No Democrat is safe!

Behind the incredible upset — this was the first time the district went Republican since it was created — lies the massive and growing animosity toward Obama by Jewish Democrats. This Administration’s deliberate insults against Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, its sympathy with the radical Islamists, and its support for a return to 1967 borders for the Jewish State have cost it the support of its once second most loyal voting group (after African-Americans).

According to John McLaughlin, the star political strategist who helped pilot Turner to victor, the Republican candidate spent about $60,000 on media in the final week compared to over a million for the defeated Democrat Weprin. The Democrats flooded the district with workers and money but were not able to stem the avalanche.

Turnout among Latino and African-American voters was very low and the outpouring of Jewish and white Catholic voters against Obama’s candidate was truly impressive.

This victory for Republicans is, in its own way, as inspiring for conservatives and as deflating for liberals as the 2010 victory of Scott Brown in the Massachusetts Senate race. The message it sends is that Obama’s policies have made all liberals and all Democrats vulnerable even in the bastions of Democratic liberalism.

Thank you to the people who donated key funding to the Turner campaign through in the pivotal last few days of the race. You made a big difference and can feel justifiably proud in the result!

Copyright © 2011 | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Log in***
3933  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: The Politics of Health Care on: September 13, 2011, 02:29:47 PM

I agree with your thoughts but also sympathize understand the rights of parents to have a say.

So much of communicable disease is political.  Look at the Aids epidemic.   The pols protected the gay community more than the health of the general public.

I don't want to bash the legal profession but clearly the class action law suit industry also helps drive this.  Blame anything and everything one can when going after deep pockets.

There are clearly some ethical attorneys like their are unethical physicians yet the legal system is in view out of control.

3934  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / preventative vaccine on: September 13, 2011, 10:16:44 AM
From a public health point of view it is clear this vaccine should be given to all.  Yet I tend to agree with Bachmann that people should have  choice.  That said I doubt this is a big issue in the race for the President and was over dramatic on Bachmann's part - with we are attacking little girls and risking them for drug company profit logic:

****Michele Bachmann attacks Rick Perry on HPV
210 Email Print
By ALEXANDER BURNS | 9/12/11 9:16 PM EDT Updated: 9/12/11 10:05 PM EDT

Michele Bachmann accused Rick Perry of using sixth-grade girls as profit engines for a drug company at the CNN/Tea Party Express debate, lacing into the Texas governor for having attempted to mandate the HPV vaccine for young teenagers.

“To have innocent little 12-year-old girls be forced to have a government injection through an executive order is just wrong,” Bachmann said. “Little girls who have a negative reaction to this potentially dangerous drug don’t get a mulligan.”

Continue Reading

The Minnesota congresswoman went even further, accusing Perry of handing out favors to a company, Merck, represented by his former top aide, Mike Toomey.

“There was a big drug company that made millions of dollars because of this mandate,” Bachmann said. “The governor’s former chief of staff was the chief lobbyist for this drug company.”

Perry pushed back hard against Bachmann, but seemed flustered as the attacks on HPV intensified.

“At the end of the day, this was about trying to stop a cancer,” Perry said. “At the end of the day, I am always going to err on the side of life.”

When Bachmann suggested he mandated the vaccine as a favor to a campaign contributor, Perry responded: “I raised $30 million and if you’re saying I can be bought for $5,000, I’m offended”

Bachmann shot back: “I’m offended for all the little girls and parents who didn’t have a choice.”****
3935  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 911 on: September 12, 2011, 02:21:52 PM
"Fake heroes like Bernie Kerik, Rudy Giuliani, and, yes, George W. Bush raced to cash in on the horror"

Shows the left's desperation.  Like I said even a person with Down's is cracking up with laughter over their twisted logic.

3936  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Jewish "Intellectuals" dead wrong: King of Jordan on: September 12, 2011, 10:10:25 AM
I wonder who the intellectual is.  State's he is an Israeli but also quoted as speaking to him in US.  Wonder if it is Soros.:

*****Jordan's Abdullah: Israel's situation today more difficult than ever

King says 'Jordan and the future Palestine are stronger than Israel is today. It is the Israeli who is scared today'

Roee Nahmias Published:  09.12.11, 15:21 / Israel News 

"Jordan and the future Palestine are stronger than Israel is today. It is the Israeli who is scared today," King Abdullah of Jordan said late Sunday in Amman.

The king described a recent conversation he held in the US with "one of the Israeli intellectuals" who commented on events in the Arab world, arguing that they were good for Israel. "I replied and said that it was the opposite and that Israel's situation today is more difficult than ever before.

Abdullah reiterated that his country would not serve as an "alternative homeland to the Palestinians."

According to the Jordanian leader, "Jordan is Jordan and Palestine is Palestine. We support all Palestinian rights and the establishment of an independent Palestinian state – our policy hasn’t changed. The subject of an alternative homeland must not be part of the discussion. It is unacceptable."

Abdullah sought to reassure everyone, saying "I have never heard from any senior American official – whether Bush, Clinton or Obama – any pressure on Jordan that the Palestinian solution should come at its expense."

"Jordan", the king added, "Will defend its rights and support its vision of a permanent solution that would ensure the establishment of a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital and a just realization of the right of return and adequate compensation."****

3937  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: US Economics, the stock market , and other investment/savings strategies on: September 10, 2011, 01:10:44 PM
Please see my reply #111 from Sept 7 9:51 AM on Cognitive dissonance of the left thread titled Soros.  Despite multiple attempts for some reason I cannot seem to copy and past here.
3938  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: US Economics, the stock market , and other investment/savings strategies on: September 09, 2011, 03:19:26 PM
See you at Dw 6K or thereabouts.  I'm with Soros.  Though, no thanks to him.

Of course Brian W will note the surge in condom retail sales as a sign things are getting better. rolleyes
3939  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / My error made running around during the day on: September 09, 2011, 03:17:13 PM
Actually the coins would not have been gold; maybe silver or non precious metal and may have been dollars or halves?

Like US paper money the metal coins are hardly even worth the metal they are made out of.

Don't pennies cost more to make than they are valued?

Come to think of it aren't we murdering too many trees by printing so much money?  Think of the carbon dioxide not soaked up and the oxygen not produced.

Its a good thing we print $20 ,50 100 bills lest we wipe out the enitre Amazon forest if the 14 trillion in debt were dollars.

3940  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: The Cognitive Dissonance of His Glibness on: September 09, 2011, 02:52:06 PM
Whoever came up with that bingo board is OBVIOUSLY a racist biggoted person. wink

Must be one of those crazy loon Tea Party types. cheesy

3941  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Get a job at the mint and walk out with millions on: September 09, 2011, 12:16:01 PM
If this does not illustrate the total incompetence of government than nothing will.  They cannot even secure the *mint* from their own employees.
How can someone sneak out 2.4 million one dollar gold coins before being caught?  Did he have help?

And the guy is an ex Fed cop.  Surprise surprise surpirse:

***A former federal cop assigned to the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia admitted stealing $2.4 million in "error" coins.

William Gray, 64, of North Wildwood, N.J., admitted in federal court that he took the $1 presidential coins, all missing edge lettering, and sold them to a California coin dealer. Gray pleaded guilty to theft of government property and income tax evasion, said U.S. Attorney Paul Fishman.

Gray had worked at the U.S. Mint since 1996. He said he took the coins knowing they would be considered more valuable to collectors because they were considered "mint errors." He mailed them from New Jersey.

He was freed on $50,000 bail and will be sentenced on Dec. 20.

Posted Friday, Sep 9, 2011 - 7:09 AM EDT**** 
3942  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / MSNBC - a night of high comedy on: September 08, 2011, 08:15:09 PM
I missed the debate but saw some of the MSNBC liberal "analysts" afterwards.

The two Chrises, Rachel, Al, Ed.  It was really a riot watching them fail as they tried to demean the candidates.  The whole time using every conceivable name, label, argument, and struggling with logic so twisted even one with Down's syndrome would be cracking up with laughter.

The only ones who have lost the *debate* are the liberals.

The LEFT  has lost the *debate*.  Now if the Repubs can only bring home the bacon.
3943  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / unions do not represent the middle class on: September 07, 2011, 12:13:24 PM
The strategy of the unions is to exand *their* plight to most Americans by calling it a *middle class* issue.  The jornolists/unions/liberals are all on the same page screaming about the "war on the middle class", "working people", etc.

Like yeah right;   the tea party the republicans the conservatives want to destroy the middle class.

Most of us are not in unions and even some union members don't buy this propaganda - which is exactly what it is.

Yet Pat Buchanan is exactly right and echoes what I have been saying all along:

the left and the right have not as yet put forward a real plan to save the obvious trend of falling behind of the middle class.

And Doug, I love ya but please don't try to give me stats about how the middle class is doing as well as it was 30 - 40 years ago.
It clearly is much  harder to make ends meet today then it was only a generation ago.   Two people working, even college degrees meaning far less, people not having job security, $30,000 being a decent wage in 1970 and now 100K is not even the same.  The middle is clearly been stagnant and not able to keep up with the bills.

That said the answer for me is not to steal from succesful people and dole it out. The answer is unclear to me.  Without any doubt in my mind any Republican who can give a logical plan that addresses this more specifically will wipe out Brock.

The big government small government argument alone will always be a screaming yelling match struggle for the middle votes.
3944  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Soros on: September 07, 2011, 11:51:26 AM
I am sure he is invested appropriately:

****Jorge Silva/Reuters; Tom White for the New York Times
“This crisis has the potential to be a lot worse than Lehman Brothers,” said George Soros, the hedge fund investor, citing the lack of a pan-European body to handle an extreme banking crisis.
Read All Comments (72) »
As Europe struggles to contain its government debt crisis, the greatest fear is that one of the Continent’s major banks may fail, setting off a financial panic like the one sparked by Lehman’s bankruptcy in September 2008.

European policy makers, determined to avoid such a catastrophe, are prepared to use hundreds of billions of euros of bailout money to prevent any major bank from failing.

But questions continue to mount about the ability of Europe’s banks to ride out the crisis, as some are having a harder time securing loans needed for daily operations.

American financial institutions, seeking to inoculate themselves from the growing risks, are increasingly wary of making new short-term loans in some cases and are pulling back from doing business with their European counterparts — moves that could exacerbate the funding problems of European banks.

Similar withdrawals, on a much larger scale, forced Lehman into bankruptcy, as banks, hedge funds and others took steps to shield their own interests even though it helped set in motion the broader market crisis.

Turmoil in Europe could quickly spread across the Atlantic because of the intertwined nature of the global financial system. In addition, it could further damage the already struggling economies elsewhere.

“This crisis has the potential to be a lot worse than Lehman Brothers,” said George Soros, the hedge fund investor, citing the lack of an authoritative pan-European body to handle a banking crisis of this severity. “That is why the problem is so serious. You need a crisis to create the political will for Europe to create such an authority, but there is still no understanding as to what the authority will do.”

The growing nervousness was reflected in financial markets Tuesday, with stocks in the United States and Europe falling 1 percent and European bank stocks falling 5 percent or more after steep drops in recent weeks.

European bank shares are now at their lowest point since March 2009, when the global banking system was still shaky following Lehman’s collapse.

Investors also continued to seek the safety of United States Treasury bonds, as yields on 10-year bonds briefly touched 1.90 percent, the lowest ever, before closing at 1.98 percent.

Adding to the anxiety, several immediate challenges face European officials as they try to calm markets worried about the debt crisis spreading.

In the coming weeks, the 17 countries of the euro currency zone each could agree to a July deal brokered to bail out Greece again and possibly the region’s ailing banks. Along with getting unanimity, more immediate obstacles could trip up the agreement.

On Wednesday, Germany’s top court upheld the legality of Berlin’s rescue packages, but said any future bailouts for debt-stricken euro zone countries must be approved by a parliamentary panel. On Thursday, officials in Finland are to express their conditions for approving the deal, and other countries may follow with their own demands to ensure their loans will be paid back. 

Though they have not succeeded in calming the markets, European leaders have taken a series of steps to avert a Lehman-like failure. New credit lines have been opened by the European Central Bank for institutions that need funds, while the proposed Greek bailout would provide loans to countries that need to recapitalize their banks. In addition, the central bank has been buying up bonds from Italy and Spain, among other countries, to keep interest rates from spiking. Many of these have been bought from European banks, effectively allowing them to shed troubled assets for cash.

While the problems in smaller countries like Greece and Ireland are not new, in recent weeks the concerns have spread to banking giants in countries like Germany and France that are crucial to the functioning of the global financial system and are closely linked with their American counterparts. What is more, worries have surfaced about the outlook for Italy, whose debt dwarfs that of other smaller troubled borrowers like Greece.
An earlier version of this article incorrectly stated that two-year Treasury bonds briefly touched a record low yield of 1.90 percent. It was actually 10-year Treasuries that hit this record.****
3945  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: 2012 Presidential on: September 06, 2011, 11:13:04 AM
"Republicans therefore are a lock or lead in 24 states for 206 electoral votes, and Democrats have or lead in 19 states for 247 electoral votes. That's why seven super-swing states with 85 electors will determine which party gets to the magic number of 270 electoral votes: Colorado (9), Florida (29), Iowa (6), Nevada (6), New Hampshire (4), Ohio (18) and Virginia (13)."

Depressing that it is close at all.  Big or little government is not winning the debate.

It should be a landslide.  The repubs still don't get it.

3946  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: The Cognitive Dissonance of His Glibness on: September 06, 2011, 10:56:17 AM
Above posts simply confirm that OBama is nothing more than a messanger.

There is no evidence he has ever been creative or an original thinker.

Clearly his books were not written by him.

I have not seen one example of anything that is original thought on his part.

Indeed it is remarkable this guy who went to Columbia and Harvard has absolutely no writing which indicates any creative thinking.   From what I recall reading about other Harvard law students and professors their lauding him was based only on his seeming ability to referee differences.  He seemed to make everyone think he agreed with them on all sides of arguments or debates and in the end no one knew what HE actually believed.  

Similarly today he plays Reagan, Lincoln, Clinton, Bush, all the while attempting to hide his real agenda.  Even though everyone is on to him now he still plays the same game.  Because - he knows no other.  IT also fits my theory he is a try disordered personality who will continue to lie, scape goat, blame others, and be a pompous ass - to the end.  

That said it is quite clear why he is such a failure.  Without taking marching orders from the real brains behind the progressive movement he is lost as to what to do.

His backing off the climate emmissions regulations is really an example of he knows full well his policies kill the economy.

Yet he is so set on his ideolgical agenda her won't give in.

3947  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Political Rants & interesting thought pieces on: September 02, 2011, 03:07:02 PM
"Why do we have to pay f*ckin rent all our lives - all our lives?  Why?  Why?? Why can't we just pay f*ckin rent for like maybe 10 years, you know, you stay in a place, you know pay f*ckin rent like 10 years and after that you shouldn't have to pay rent again ever and I mean like ever for as long as you live."

Well if she worked for me the answer would be simple:

Why can't I pay you a wage for ten years than you work for me forever for nothing.  I mean I shouldn't have to pay you a f* wage forever!  grin
3948  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: US Economics, the stock market , and other investment/savings strategies on: September 02, 2011, 01:06:13 PM

I don't follow Wesbury but every time I read his analyses they always seem the same.  I think GM alluded to this as well:

Despite any bad news there is really good news.

3949  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Turkey/Israel on: September 02, 2011, 12:27:49 PM
Turkey expels Israeli ambassador

Ankara follows through on threat to impose independent sanctions on Jerusalem following its refusal to apologize for deadly Marmara raid: Top-level diplomatic staff expelled, key military contracts suspended. Turkish FM: Time for Israel to pay the price

News agencies Latest Update:  09.02.11, 15:06 / Israel News 

Israel-Turkey relations sink to a new low: Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu announced on Friday that following Jerusalem's adamant refusal to apologize over the 2010 Gaza flotilla raid, Ankara will be downgrading its diplomatic relations with Israel and suspending key military agreements.

In a dramatic turn of events, Turkey announced that it was expelling Israeli Ambassador Gabby Levy from Ankara. Davutoglu said Turkey's diplomatic representation in Israel would be further reduced to second-secretary level. In accordance, all lower Israeli diplomatic personnel above the second-secretary level have also been expelled. 

More on Israeli-Turkish diplomatic crisis:

Israel defiant: No apology to Turkey
Palmer Report fails main objectives
Will Palmer Report lead to legal onslaught?
UN report: Israel should compensate Turkey
Turkey rebuffs Palmer findings   

The announcement followed a press conference, in which Davutoglu said that some of the UN's Palmer Report findings on the raid were "unacceptable," adding that it was "time for Israel to pay the price... The highest price it can pay is losing our friendship."   

"Today, we reached a point where Israel has, in fact, spent all of the chances that were given to them. The Israeli government, on the other hand, see themselves (as being) above international laws and human conscience," the Turkish FM said.

Turkey withdrew its own ambassador to Israel immediately after last year's raid.

Davutoğlu's stated that Ankara views the Israeli government as responsible for the situation, and that Turkey will not revise its position on the matter until Israel reconsiders its stand on the flotilla incident. Davutoğlu added that despite the Palmer Report findings, Turkey does not recognise the legality of the Israeli blockade on Gaza. 

Turkish President Abdullah Gul reportedly said Friday that as far as Turkey was concerned, the Palmer Report was "null and void." Ankara is also said to be exploring its options against Israel with the International Court of Justice.

 Earlier Friday, Turkey vowed that its demand for an apology from Israel would remain unchanged, stating that it is powerful enough to protect the rights of its citizen. The statement was made in Ankara's first official reaction to a leaked United Nations panel report on the Mavi Marmara incident.
Israel remains adamant over its decision not to offer Turkey an official apology. A senior official told Ynet that while Israel is aware of the implications of its decision to refrain from issuing an apology, "we cannot conduct ourselves based on ultimatums."

The Palmer Report does not demand an Israeli apology, establishing instead that Israel should express regret and pay reparations, the official said, adding that Jerusalem still hoped that the two countries could "return to the cooperation that was a cornerstone of regional stability." Another senior official added that "the severing of ties goes against Turkey's strategic interests."

Jerusalem sources were unfazed by the move, saying that Israel's military agreements with Turkey had previously been suspended – by Israel. "Military trade with Turkey was suspended a while ago… we didn’t want to risk any weapons made in Israel falling into the wrong hands," a diplomatic source said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Other sources hedged that while Turkey may downgrade its ties with Israel, the US is likely to stop Ankara from severing its ties with Jerusalem completely.

 Foreign Ministry Director-General Rafael Barak called for a situation assessment on Friday afternoon, following Turkey's decision. The meeting was called after he conferred with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak. Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is currently on an official visit to Moldova.

Meanwhile, Turkey's Zaman news site reported Friday that Davutoğlu had spoken with United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and that he raised The New York Times issue with him. Davutoğlu added that UN’s Ban was also surprised to hear about the publication of the leaked report.

 AP, Reuters, AFP and Ronen Medzini contributed to this report
3950  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities / Politics & Religion / Re: Gender, Gay, Lesbian on: September 02, 2011, 10:59:02 AM
Didn't Federal hate crime law evolve from racial issues wherein the Feds were trying to insure that local judicial systems could not easily allow an injustice due to local prejudices?

For example, white murderers getting a not guilty verdict because the jury judge and local law enforcement/justice system was inherently racist?

Extrapolating that to gays, etc is in probably most people's minds has been ridiculous/unnecessary and indeed become abuse of those accused.

For example the Rutgers student who is charged with a hate crime because his video of the gay college student fellating another student and he than goes and commits suicide because of the exposure.  Most people would agree making this into a Federal issue hate crime is overboard and an injustice to the accused.  Isn't this really double jeopardy?  Overlap to insure that someone accused of a politically incorrect act has another layer of prosecution stacked on top of him/her.

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