Dog Brothers Public Forum


Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
February 20, 2018, 02:05:45 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the Dog Brothers Public Forum.
107418 Posts in 2403 Topics by 1095 Members
Latest Member: dannysamuel
* Home Help Search Login Register
  Show Posts
Pages: 1 [2]
51  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Conan the Barbarian on: June 04, 2005, 08:25:57 AM
Quote from: ryangruhn

I worked with most of those gentlemen at that site. Saffel was a Marvel editor during the 90's and Rusty Burke wrote a biography of Robert E. Howard which I art designed in the late nineties. They'll have all the answers you need and more.

52  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Conan the Barbarian on: May 31, 2005, 06:40:00 PM
I could tell you that the use of 'dog brother' came from author Robert E. Howard, creator of Conan, but it was used in his Red Sonya story titled 'Shadows of the Vulture'.

Red Sonja (spelling changed for the comic) was a character who appeared in the Conan The Barbarian comic book written by Roy Thomas. It is possible that a Conan issue which included her in it used that term for the first time in comics.

53  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts on: May 23, 2005, 10:59:07 AM
Quote from: antoy

 cry You got me wrong, I stated clearly that whatever MARTIAL ART they practiced, it did not have any influence on modern day eskrima, neither is their proof that it is the so-called mother art Kali.   It would be foolish to assume they did not have a martial art, let's say for the sake of argument that they may only have a few slashes, cuts and thrusts...nonetheless it is still a martial art by any standard!

I don't belong to the thought that the Moros did not have ANY influence on modern day eskrima (although there's probably a whole other thread that could be focused on what 'modern day' eskrima is). If the Moros were the primary enemy of other tribes during the time of bladed warfare, then there is no way the other side can evolve in a vacuum. One has to be able to know the enemy, use what works and so on. Not understanding this mindset is not understanding the Filipino's talent to make anything useful their own. If we look at accounts of non Muslim Filipinos in battles, they too did the run, slash cut etc. because the way of tribal bladed warfare is fluidity not formations.

Quote from: antoy
it may not be as systematized as the FMA and the Chinese and the Japanese arts.

I do agree that the Moro methods of warfare is not the mother art of Kali (since I don't subscribe to that phrasing), but I disagree when you segregate Moro methods as if it is not FMA.

If one believes Moros are Filipino, and they have a martial art- then they are part of Filipino Martial Arts. Commercialization of the methods of combat is not my criteria of what a martial art is. And until Moros form their own country, they are Filipino.

Quote from: antoy

And I have no argument either that the FMA is the legacy of the entire Filipino people not just a few select tribes.  What i found atrocious is that a lot of the FMA in the U.S. seem to mislead everyone by solely giving credit to the Moro people for the FMA, you can see instructors and guros in full Moro regalia, and it's all over the internet.  I hope you see my point here:?

I see your point about appropriating Moro culture by itself.
In Sayoc Kali we use different images of Filipino warriors in our logos and visual material. Although we have Moro inspired images, we also have Kalinga, Tagal, Igorot etc. influences in the visuals. The point from our POV is we focus on the fighting spirit and legacy of the Filipino... inspirational,  NOT the imitation and supposed teaching of Moro warfare methods (if that is what you mean by instructors wearing the regalia etc.)

In addition, Sayoc Kali strives to constantly evolve so terminology and teaching methods are crossovers from many cultures and studies. We've had internet critics state that what we teach isn't even FMA because we do not use Filipino terminology, which is the same language trap all over again.

54  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts on: May 22, 2005, 01:26:28 PM
Quote from: antoy

Okay, okay, just spoofing the most abused title in the FMA ...and I agree that the title grandmaster is a recent adaptation modelled after the Chinese and Japanese martial arts ranking. SO, let me rephrase the question...Where's the Moro Kali expert? Where are the Kali schools in Mindanao?

I've already answered this 'kali' question within the pages of the thread.

My perspective is not that Kali is the 'mother art'. My perspective is that systemized teaching and the use of the blade for survival are two different subjects.

And again, the Moro FMA expert is found in our history books. You can see their filed teeth and blades in old photos.

In fact, if you look at old photos of some Moros posing, you will definitely see they have a martial art based on effective techniques, not learned from 'schools/dojos' but life. In the book on the Kris by Cato, there's a great photo of two Moros posing in the early 1900's. One is checking the other with their sword sheath! Now that's not someone who just charges and cuts without thought.

Quote from: antoy

It's not a question of demonizing the Moro fighting prowess, no martial artist in his right mind will question that!  

Your quoted source seems to simplify the Moro's fighting prowess by stating that the Moros wielded blades without much technique. I would disagree. Anything effective is viable technique.

Systemization of a person's movement is NOT the same as lacking technique.

For example, any MA instructor who has been trained to understand concepts of fighting can take anyone's fighting movement and create a system of MA. I believe most if not all Arnis and Eskrima instructors have done this Western styled process. Just because no one has done so for a Moro does not mean a MARTIAL art does not exist.

As you stated, your criteria is based on ORGANIZED FMA... well, based on other culture's MAs .. many FMA do not meet their standards of what ORGANIZED is.

Quote from: antoy

The issue is - whatever martial art they practiced that until now has not surfaced; that has a traceable verifiable lineage down to at least a hundred years definitely did not influence the highly technical FMA - eskrima, arnis estokada that we see today.

I disagree, Moro martial lineage is found in history books and records of their battles. Unless, what you're seeking is a curriculum and ranking based on other culture's standards.

Quote from: antoy
The Ilustrisimo system has an authentic lineage that dates back 200 years ago. Other Visayan systems may have an even older pedigree. You see, all of the systems named Kali, trace back their lineage to the Visayan region and not to Muslim Mindanao.  How can you reconcile with that? The crux of this debate is not the name Kali per's the claim that Kali is the mother of eskrima, arnis. Eskrima, arnis, estokada is a cultural heritage of the Cebuanos, Ilonggos, and Pampangos, anyone serious about the FMA should respect that!   wink  

I do not disagree with you about the cultural heritage of other Filipinos, but to exclude the Muslim's contribution in shaping the way these other Filipinos fought is really a wonderful way to shoot oneself in the foot.

You have a quote from someone who tries to invalidate the Moro fighting prowess by stating all they do is charge, cut and slash, yet you claim that there's no agenda.

Quote from: antoy
Let's stick to the issue, show us a Moro warrior that can trace his lineage 200 years back. It's that simple, no need to over intellectualize.

Nice try.
Well, that is not the issue of this thread. That's an attempt to limit the discussion so that it suits the answer you already accept. That's like saying, "Everyone acknowledges that Moros are GREAT swimmers. So great that everyone was shocked at their prowess. However since Moros do not have a school of swimming, and do not have accredited swimming instructors that means they should not be credited for Filipino swimming."
It might work if we only live in a world of sanctions, clubs, competitions  and certificates. And let's not be coy or naive enough to think that this does not also pertain to marketing.

Whether you realize it or not, you're asking for a Moro that studied under Western, Chinese or Japanese martial art standards of rank and system. Or a Moro that follows other Filipinos' standards of teaching and systemization. Here's the main part... these other Filipinos probably shaped their system of fighting by using outside influences of structure. There's nothing wrong with that.

However, to state that is the only way to recognize that one has a martial art is ignoring the obvious:

Everyone knows Moros can, and did fight with a blade... well.

Igorots have a martial art as well, they don't have certificates but they had heads aligning their huts.

That is FILIPINO Martial Arts.

Once you discredit their legacy by forcing them into standards created by others, you are dangerously watering down what appealed to outside cultures to begin with - Effectiveness of their combative mindset.

Quote from: antoy
Moreover, it's not my agenda to deprecate the Moro people, their culture and arts, frankly I believe they deserve a homeland...but that's a way bit off the topic here. wink Cheers!

Well and good. I'm just pointing out the bigger picture to you. FMA is not one tribe's... it is the history of the islands and ALL our ancestors. There's many excellent Eskrima and Arnis Filipino instructors, they are PART of the legacy but they do not have sole claim to Filipino martial history.

Again, we need to learn the lessons of a Divided and Conquered mentality.

Btw, is there a Musashi samurai school?
Is there a Macedonian Martial Arts Seminar anywhere?
How about el - Tawil's scimitar sparring class?

Based on your limited criteria, these great warriors never had a REAL martial art.

55  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts on: May 21, 2005, 08:35:04 AM
Quote from: antoy

 Where's Moro Grandmaster?

Look at your last question... "Where's Moro Grandmaster?"...

That's what I'm talking about.
"Grandmaster" was never a term used by anyone in the Philippines prior to a hundred years ago. That's a systemized foreign based framework (Spanish, Japanese, American) that you are trying to fit into another culture. We all know that historically, tribal leaders WERE that tribes 'GrandMasters'... they were warriors.

Some FMA instructors and students desire to invalidate the fighting prowess of the 'Moros' by this method. Development of teaching methods founded on a foreign criteria which suits the commercialized MA structures of today does not lessen the historical fighting prowess of the Moros.

Quote from: antoy
If indeed those Moro blades were effective against the Visayans whose villages they have raided for hundreds of years, then why have they not gained a permanent foothold of the Visayan villages, they have raided for hundreds of years

Again, look at your comment, "they raided for hundreds of years".
Don't you think the development of firearms, the alliances with Spain and America, and many other elements had something to do with that?

Based on your own set of criteria, prior to those significant developments, your "non Moro" martial arts was not very effective was it? The Moros fought their way all the way to 'Maynila'.

As per the opinions of heresay from ( quoted from TWO degrees of separation from the actual source) someone who considers the Moro their enemy, what do you think they are going to say? I've read history books written from the same perspective, except they demonize the Moros even more.

Quote from: antoy
the Moro settlement in Cebu City is just a small block in Pasil and none in the coastal towns they once raided. In contrast more 80 % of Mindanao speak Cebuano Visayan language. So the question is: Who conquered whom?

That's the whole weakness of this whole thread. Everything is based on what LANGUAGE is being used... and I stated earlier that other's TRUE agenda will surface.

It was not to state that Filipinos had their own ways of battle, but that ONE segment of Filipinos is FMA.

If it is based on systemized foreign frameworks, that may well be true... especially when one side is writing their own version of criterias which exclude others.

However, history tells us otherwise. And again, history will bite those who use this method of exclusion, because "who conquered whom", based on the influence of communication... If that was the case - we're currently both 'speaking' ENGLISH. FMA is now being translated into english based formats... in a few more years, it won't even be Filipino if you think it of it that way.

Quote from: antoy
Other non-Muslim tribes in Mindanao like the Subanon, Tiroray, Bukidnon, Manobo, Hongking also possess an array of bladed weapons, but they have practically no weapons based organized martial art!  

Eventually this mindset will Divide and Conquer our ancestor's legacies.

Who conquered whom indeed.


PS. "Charge, cut and slash"...he forgot that the Moros used the "Thrust" as well. That's pretty much the purest form of swordsmanship.

Hit and run is also part of effective guerilla warfare isn't it? Why would the Moros wish to fight in western formations? Unless we're now stating that war has to be fought the way our Spanish 'Grandmasters' fought it.
56  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts on: May 20, 2005, 12:52:15 PM
It's a way to say that one group 'created' a curriculum based framework of FMA that we know today, rather than the FMA that was about waging war.

A way to promote that the way Visayan Filipinos were taught stick and blade is the only way to view what FMA is all about.

It all depends on the your perspective... It was obviously no secret that bladed arts exists in Mindanao, someone was cutting off all those Spanish heads. Was this FMA? If not, then perhaps FMA students will want to learn THAT martial art instead, because it was quite effective against the Visayans and their Spanish allies! wink

57  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / KINGDOM OF HEAVEN on: May 07, 2005, 07:53:41 PM
Some PC peppering here and there but never the less, I liked this film. I'd like to see the whole thing unedited as I believe Ridley Scott had to trim nearly an hour of footage. The battle scenes are well done. You can see formations better than in most recent Hollywood epics. Better than ALEXANDER and TROY.

Small nitpick, I didn't like the choice for Richard the Lion Hearted, too stately - he was the closest thing to Conan in real life. Ed Norton's Baldwin is well done, the visual reminds me of this image that I drew fifteen years ago:

And the design for Saladin (pardon the westernized sp) looks close to this one:

Wait a sec... someone owes me a royalty check!!!  Smiley

The scene with the two armies is VERY well done and paced to build up so that by the time we see the appearance of the True Cross (supposedly a remnant of the cross which Jesus of Nazareth was crucified on), it is striking.

This film sets up the more interesting Crusade from my POV, the battles between Richard the Lion Hearted and Saladin. There's no closure to what happens to Guy, even though those of us who've read about Saint Joan de Arc knows where he eventually ends up.

Some well done fight scenes and battles in this one with the gore and blood intact as only the man who brought us GLADIATOR could do it.

58  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Movies of interest on: May 02, 2005, 07:38:55 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Woof Tuhon Raf:

A pleasure to be graced by your presence once again.  

I'm not familiar with the movie "Old Dog", but by its name and your recommendation I am favorably disposed.  What can you tell us about it?

Crafty Dog

Hey Crafty,

Must be my OLD age hitting me... probably cause I'd just seen a preview of Jet Li's new film, the film is actually called OldBOY. It is a South Korean film. It is a dark film about a man held prisoner in a room for many years and he turns into a sadistic vengeance seeking machine when he finally escapes. More twists and turns but I do not want to ruin it. The highlight is the hallway fight. It is how Conan should be staged, not stylistically but emotionally.  

Been thinking of Conan lately... wonder why Wink

59  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / REVISIONS on: April 30, 2005, 10:23:28 AM
Below is an article about a Spanish 'Fighting Fray' named Father Ibanez who lived in the latter part of the 1600's and early 1700's. Much credence was given to his fighting prowess and of how he may have INSTRUCTED the Filipino (Cebuanos in this case) of his Spanish sword arts. Speculation has risen to the point that Fray Ibanez may have introduced the art of eskrima (of what it is today) to the natives.

A lot has to do with a small comment by author Vic Hurley, whose important work, "Swish of the Kris' describes the Fray's last moments in Jolo.


Below is the comment on the Fighting Fray from the above article:

<<The recruitment of Cebuanos continued until the 19th century. Chapter 15 Later Wars of Swish of the Kris, recalls graphically what motivated the Cebuanos to volunteer in a war against the Moros in the name of the King of Spain:
"Indeed, matters reached such a state that before the end of the year warships were ordered out for another attack on Jolo. Four regiments of infantry and a corps of artillery aided the gunboats. Included was a battalion of Cebuanoes (sic)who sought revenge for the Moro raids. The wives of the Cebuanoes(sic) emulated Lysistrata in reverse. Every wife took an oath before Father Ibanez to deny forever their husbands all of their favors if the Cebuano men turned their backs to the Moros.
In the battle of Jolo, Father Ibanez lost his life in the assault on a Moro cotta. The good Father tucked his cassock about his waist and plunged into the thickest of the battle. The Cebuanoes(sic) performed prodigies of valor and Jolo fell again. The seat of the Sultanate was removed across the island to Maybun, and the Moros paid regular visits to Jolo to slaughter the Spanish garrison which remained. " >>

end quote

The information I discovered about Fray Ibanez is found in the pages of THE JESUITS IN THE PHILIPPINES, 1581 - 1768 a 700 page tome of the history of the Jesuit order in the Philippines. It was written by H. de la Costa. It contains dates and places on the Jesuit's missions.

The book also contains notes on every Jesuit fray who served in the islands. If they were killed in the islands, it was noted by year and place. Fray Juan Ibanez was only listed on two pages. He did serve in Cebu. On May 18, 1684 Fray Ibanez was sentenced to banishment by the Audiencia of Spain. They removed Fray Ibanez along with Fray Francisco de Vargas from Santo Domingo, and transferred them to the Cagayan missions. (page 498) Three other frays in Fray Ibanez's mission were banished from the islands altogether, placed them on a Spanish galleon and sent them to Mexico.

The Jesuits were accused as, 'disturbers of the peace'. At this point in time Spain itself had internal problems between several Christian factions in the Philippines. Jesuits were (falsely accused or not) of undermining the Crown's authority and under cutting it's profits from the islands. Archbishop Pardo had supposedly blamed the Jesuits of Fray Ibanez's mission on the huge loss of the galleon Santa Rosa at sea in the year 1682 to the overabundance of merchandise the frays had smuggled on board to send to a corrupt general, which in turn "deprive the Crown by this method of many millions".

Counter claims and accusations by the Jesuits were fired back at the archbishop which resulted in the excommunication of Fray Ortega by the archdiosesan tribunal, and the subsequent domino effect on the rest of the mission's order, including Fray Ibanez. " The mine was charged and fused which forthwith exploded with ruin irreparable and a detonation that struck all Christendom with terror and amazement." (pg 467)

By 1702, Fray Juan Ibanez was now rector of Santo Tomas and assisted in diffusing the rivalry between the rival Dominican and Jesuit orders and "dedicated a public theological disputation to Saint Ignatious of Layola" in which the Domincans reciprocated in kind. (page 580)

No other mention of Father Ibanez in the book, of which such a romantic and gallant account of taking up sword for the Crown and Cross would hardly be ignored by the meticulous records of the Jesuit order. This act would have been favorably received by both Crown and Church. However, there is no mention of Fray Ibanez dying in the jungles of Jolo. There is no mention of Fray Ibanez being in any battles in Jolo PRIOR to, or AFTER he was banished to Santo Tomas.

On May 19, 1768 the Jesuit order was shocked to be surrounded by Spanish troops and were told that they were now prisoners of the state and were ordered expelled from their dominions.

"187 years after Sedeno first set foot on Philippine soil, his successors were expelled from it. A King of Spain had opened its door to them and a King of Spain had now shut it in their faces."

Beyond the Spanish crown's unfavorable mid 1700's view towards Fray Ibanez and the Jesuit order, he was by most accounts looked on favorably by the populace of Cebu, and perhaps his expulsion became the revisions of oral history amongst the christian Cebuanos explaining the sudden disappearance of their friar. Instead of the friar having his life's work on the islands and college invalidated by their own Christian church, his fate had evolved into a legend of the Friar perishing in the fight against their rivals, the Moors of Jolo, with sword in one hand.... the cross in the other!

It was most likely much easier to explain the Fray's expulsion this way than to place oneself in the precarious position of publicly criticizing the actions of their church's archbishop. Perhaps, it was the replacement church leaders who promoted this myth to pacify the Cebuanos. Disunity in the religious order could have been seen as a weakness to the Spaniard's god. It was not unheard of for natives to change their tribal religious beliefs purely based on the positive outcome of a hunt that month, because they prayed to the Christian's god. Something the Jesuits exploited to full effect. As time passes by, the story about the fighting fray becomes fact.

The burden does not lie solely on SWISH OF THE KRIS author Vic Hurley. Hurley's research may have been limited in this case. He did not have access to the Jesuit records of this time and probably went with what had been passed down about this fighting fray. Most possibly from those belonging in the now Catholic church where once the Jesuit fray resided.

By their very own records, the Jesuits dispute any accounts of the fighting prowess of Fray Ibanez in their order. I've always stated that even if the Spanish often had one sided records, certain clues can be obtained that could debunk offshoot myths.

Like the one about the Fighting Fray who MIGHT have taught the Cebuanos 'ESKRIMA'.

60  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Kung Fu Hustle on: April 29, 2005, 02:40:37 PM
Funniest knife projectile scene on film!
Btw, Check out OLD DOG... there's an extended fight scene in hallway that's excellent. This is how a CONAN film should be choreographed.

61  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / "Kali" player on trial for killing bouncer on: October 28, 2004, 06:10:02 PM
The problem with this article is due to a lazy reporter who is embellishing the facts with their own uninformed POV.

If the Filipino knife 'expert' was so 'expert' and efficient in targeting the femoral artery, then how come he missed so many chances to kill himself with his own blade? Why didn't he just repeat the same exact femoral cut to commit suicide?

Anyone who has ever met the instructors of said individual would have no idea they were vicious people at all. Probably the warmest, best humored folks on the FMA planet.

We should allow the court system to have it's course. This is an unfortunate incident all around.

62  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Silly Bruce Lee question on: October 14, 2004, 02:22:19 PM

63  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / PINOY BOXERS 1923, 1937 on: April 04, 2004, 04:37:20 PM
Decided to revive this thread after recently viewing some old film of Pinoy Boxers. As much as books and articles describe the action, the footage speak for themselves.

Now this is not to say other fighters moved this way based on their country of origin, but suffice to say the footage does show an English/Western fighter versus a Filipino in the early era of Boxing as sport we know today.

1923 World Flyweight Championship
Pancho Villa - Filipino versus Jimmy Wilde (World Champ)

The thread began with a comment of lack of blocking evident in European fighters. What I saw here is that Wilde would use his hands to try and deflect blows but was rather unsuccessful due to Villa's agility. Villa would launch himself with power shots that went right through some of his defenses.

In turn the Pinoy, Villa would 'absorb' Wilde's punches in a semi crouch turtle guard that looked like Ken Norton's peek a boo style. This nullified a lot of Wilde's punches and Wilde kept delivering them at the same spots.

This guard is different from Wilde's which was the lower lead left, a bit out from the hips variety that another English fighter uses in the next fight I saw which was filmed a decade later.

So Villa's arms were tucked close together and Wilde's were held out.

Now, I don't know if it is Villa's empty hand experience coming into play, but he does deliver 'illegal' type blows in this match which are backhands after his right hook. It just flows right back after his hook and thumps Wilde a few times. So it's a half beat shot. Wilde even complains to the ref and shows him what Villa is doing. Villa does it pretty fast and tight on few occasions.

Villa won the fight.

World Flyweight Championship 1937
Small Montana (aka Benjamin Gan, he's the Pinoy) versus Benny Lynch

If ever Filipino 'footwork' may have influenced Ali this is a good evidence of it.
Gan has a smooth subtle rhythmic bounce to his timing which is very reminiscent of Ali. His jab, especially as he slides away looks much like Ali's. Jab and move.

The Englishman ? Lynch would hold his lead left straighter, farther from his hips similar to Wilde's above.
The Filipino Gan's left lead is tucked ala Ali's along his side.
Surprisingly, Gan even does a slight 'ali' shuffle as he zones out of the punches.

Lynch would come in with a nice lunging left then pop back on his feet. His bounce was after the fact...very different-  like a fencer getting out of the way after a lunge and recovering from the movement. He establsihes this more as the fight wore on. Otherwise Lynch was flatter of foot.

Gan would be bouncing prior to striking ala Ali. Then slide back and bounce away. The bounce was more a timing gauge as it set up his shots rather than recover.

Decision goes to Lynch. Gan looks like he abandoned his earlier smooth style and stood flatter- perhaps fatigue set in. No one looked badly hurt in the fight.

One detail really stood out- the way the boxers acted on the ring. They would shake hands prior to the bout as they entered the ring as if to meet for tea or something.

64  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / response on: March 16, 2004, 06:23:55 AM
Perhaps Spain will focus their energy on terrorist trails within Europe. That would be a justification of reorganizing a limited military source. If they don't attack the terror cells,  then it sends a signal to terrorists that the people will bow to their whims.

65  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / karate kid syndrome on: December 18, 2003, 11:55:20 PM
Unlike the Karate Kid- I think the film establishes early on in the battles sequences prior to his samurai training that Cruise possessed some excellent sabre skills - he was able to pull off several kills solo against multiple samurai. He was just adapting to the Japanese way of the sword.

66  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: hmmm... on: November 11, 2003, 12:56:52 PM
Quote from: Question Everything

the KALI in Mr. Yambao's book simply means Kalirongan, the martial arts title in Pampanga, Philippines, where Mr. Yambao was from.

KA (once again) is its prefix denoting an abstract concept, while its suffix is -an.  the root is lirong, which is related to the Tagalog word Laro, which means to play.  to make the Tagalog word abstract, one simply adds the Ka- and the -an... KAlaro'AN.

Growing up in Philippines hearing KApampangan spoken - the terms for the word 'PLAY' are:
Mamialung, Maquialung, Pa'quialungan

So did Yambao or someone else in his system appropriate Tagalog terminology to a Kapampangan system?

--Rafael KAyanan--
67  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Kali on: November 10, 2003, 08:22:41 AM
[/quote]why doesn't somebody get to the point and decide conclusively where this all stands?[/quote]


Btw, the usage of 'KA'  may be linked to the usage of the Sanskrit, 'KHA'. For example 'khaDga' or 'kha Dgii' meaning ' with sword'.

'Khali' outside of the Goddess of Destruction is also the term used for the waving of the hand in traditional music depicting a void or emptiness. So it is a 'Hand Motion' but pertains to music, not anything martial.

I checked around and 'Khalis' in Persian means 'pure and pious' so that doesn't link up with the Filipino sources.

68  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Manila Galleons on: November 08, 2003, 02:59:57 PM
On a side note:

Here's a site that wants to list existing records of the Manila Galleons.

69  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Keris on: November 08, 2003, 02:46:51 PM
Quote from: Question Everything

i was just speaking to a friend after posting the above.  i thought her point was good and might be able to offer light to our little discussion here.

the Tausugs do not say KRIS the same way an American would say the name "Chris", but rather they say it with a little short 'e' in between the K and R.  so, they say it KeRIS.  

if someone was at the predisposition of mistaking the letter R with the letter L, as the Japanese are fond of doing, then he or she might say KeLIS.  a Tagalog or a Bisaya might later spell this Kelis into KALIS.  this would then take us to our current disagreement.

I was going to post on this matter but it seems you've surmised the same. The Indonesians say "Keris" as well. So someone with a heavy Filipino accent could be misunderstood. There's stories of elder FMAs using words that have been misunderstood by their students or outsiders. I remember Tatang Bo Sayoc would say "manny-ober" and he was actually saying "maneuver".

Thanks for the info on Mr. Castro. I'm always interested in any new information about the past. It may not discount the previous theories but always a good opportunity to investigate.

70  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Migration on: November 07, 2003, 11:59:47 AM
Quote from: another guest
It was during his time that such ideas such as the wave of migration from the Negritos or Atis/Ita, then the Malays, then the Indonesians were propagated and spread into the curriculum of all schools. This migration theory is now being disputed now by current, enlightened historians who have nothing else to gain but a sense of Filipino pride of passing on the real "roots" to the coming generations.

Are there any publications or sites that document these disputes about migration? What are the current stances on these topics?

I believe Hurley's 'Swish of the Kris' may have been one of the earliest publications to list the migration theory that is now in question. What are the real 'roots' these enlightened are now presenting?

--Rafael Kayanan--
71  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: KALI on: November 05, 2003, 05:03:37 PM
Quote from: Spadaccino

Rafael, what's your opinion on simply using the indigenous terms to describe individual systems, but referring collectively to the Filipino arts simply as "FMA"?

I feel it is up to the individual person's taste and not something worth trying to consolidate. In my previous post, I stated I have no opinion against using such terms since the arts continue to evolve and successors will most likely change terminology along the way. Just as long as the practioner respectfully acknowledges the Filipinos or instructors who preserved the art when they learned it.

On Maestro Martinez; several years ago when we were visiting Guro Inosanto at a Queens seminar he remarked how alien the double stick methods were to him. He was looking at a basic heaven count.

For others who may be interested. Here's a small compilation of quotes regarding Pre-Hispanic Filipino warfare written by Miguel Legaspi himself. he didn't call it KALI but he was impressed with what seems to be a level of expertise beyond rudimentary one two type hacking:

All Quotes from Legaspi in Blair and Robertson, The Philippine Islands:

On Pre-Hispanic Filipino arms and dress:

"? all the natives had put on their wooden corselets and rope armor , and had armed themselves with their lances, shields, small cutlasses, and arrows; and that many plumes and varicolored headdresses were waving;"

At the town of Cangiungo ? more evidence of Filipinos with swords:

"They made signs that we should not disembark; pulled grass, Struck trees with their cutlasses, and threateningly mocked us. Seeing that in this case cajolery could not suffice, we withdrew in order not to disturb them; "

Legaspi mentions the Filipinos always being armed:

"The weapons generally used throughout the Filipinas are cutlasses and daggers; lances with iron points, one and one-half palms in length; lenguados enclosed in cloth sheaths, and a few bows and arrows. Whenever the natives leave their houses, even if it is only to go to the house of a neighbor, they carry these weapons; for they are always on the alert, and are mistrustful of one another."

A Gunting wound?:

"A soldier who went ashore received a wound in the hand. The wound was apparently small; and indeed it was through negligence of the wounded man himself that he died within two weeks."

Use of spears:

"the Indians, when they saw him, fell upon him and in a moment with great cruelty tore him to pieces, giving him at least thirty lance thrusts through the body."

Legaspi describes another tribe that used impact weapons and comments on their expertise:

"?with their hardened clubs, stones, and slings (which comprise their weapons, and which they manage very skillfully) they took the place of those who were fighting, and those who were fighting embarked in the canoes, and came also to the ships to trade."

"The Indian campaign were not analogous. The Indian Wars were amateur melees compared with the insurrection (by Filipinos in Southern Luzon) waged in 1900?" pg. 138 Millett, The General (Robert L. Bullard, who helped track the Apache warrior, Geronimo)
72  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / KALI on: November 05, 2003, 02:46:21 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Sun Helmet has his reasons and that they do not include a historical basis, does not mean that there is not one.
Crafty Dog

This is true. My personal research have not unearthed any term CONSOLIDATING the ancient fighting arts of the islands, therefore I haven't given the word KALI an ancient historical basis as the MOTHER ART. However, someone somewhere came up with this term and that in itself requires some extended research all its own. Perhaps from that research, a springboard will lead to other paths which have been well covered by the vines of time.

On the Tulisanes movement, what began as a movement of banditry evolved to the what later became known as the Katipunan movement.

On the Pulahanes movement... during the Moro Wars the river called the Pulangi played a significant strategical role. Wondering if the Illustrisimo clan had any stories involving the battles around that river region.

Here's a tangent:
Are there any Spanish manuals which describe sinawali movements and concepts?

73  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / KALI on: November 03, 2003, 07:19:43 AM
In the Philippines, an indigenous survival fighting art always existed in some form. There was no consolidated TERM for it, so people named it what they wanted to name it. If they called it anything at all.

When the Spanish arrived they influenced the language of many Filipinos through Conquesta, it was common for Spaniards to record events using their practice of historical omission. Therefore, some began calling their fighting arts using Spanish lingual influences like Arnis and Eskrima - nothing wrong with that.

Vincente Rafael (Ph. D. in SE Asian History from Cornell University and professor of History at the University of Hawaii), listed Spanish accounts of how the Tagals easily assimilated the manner of dress, and even their written alphabet- so different from their own native script (Alibata). The only thing that separated the Indio from the Castilian was their speech. Tagals who were unarmed (talking guns and a united militia) and under Spanish occupation lived in constant fear when a Spaniard who had the power to shoot them on the spot would approach them. Externally, a Tagal could mimic Spanish dress - but within them was an uncertainty; they were disguised as Spaniards but they could not understand what the Castilian was trying to say. They did not know if they were being mocked or put to death.

In 1610 a Tagal printer named Tomas Pinpin devised a way to alleviate the shock of the Castilian. In hopes that his people would understand the Spaniard from the INSIDE, expose and take away their secret alien speech. He printed the first book of translation and lesson for the Tagal reader. Pinpin believed that to be able to engage in a linguistic exchange with the Spanish is to take away the fear. They could better gauge Spanish intentions. Vincente wrote, " Tagalogs such as Pinpin would thus have at their disposal a way to inoculate themselves against the larger shock of conquest." The Filipino immunization from within began and in time the Tagals were now in control of their own secret language. They knew the enemy's thoughts while the enemy was lulled into thinking they would stand to rule forever.

The Spanish themselves acknowledged a form of indigenous fighting existed prior to their arrival.

The root words of many Filipino terms depicting war are not Spanish at all, but rooted in Sanskrit. From the influence of the SriVisayan / Filipino commerce that existed well before the arrival of Islam and Spain. (Read William Henry Scott's book Barangay)

Today, some Filipinos acknowledge that and refer to this Filipino survival fighting art as KALI. It does not mean it was called KALI back then, but they refer to the consolidated Filipino native arts as Kali because they do not want to call it the terms which the Spanish influenced speakers called it. It is their prerogative as modern day warriors.

Thus, I can understand when people call KALI the MOTHER ART. It states the arts were there prior to Spain and IF one wants to use a term for it- why not use a Sanskrit based one.  Sanskrit is the calligraphy from which our alibata is based. Sanskrit is the language from which the word "Maharlika" originates. Sanskrit terms existed in the islands prior to Spain's arrival.

One could just say these fighting arts (KALI, ARNIS, ESKRIMA) represent the BLOOD of the NATION. For that is what our ancestors paid for it.

Here's when things begin to get hairy...

Due to miscommunication, mistranslation or outright deception by others, the term KALI has been a thorn for other Filipinos who favor the terms, ARNIS, ESKRIMA. For many it denotes a sort of cultural elitism that may or may not have been intended.


The term for the collective Present day Philippine Island's Martial Art / Mother Art can be anything we choose to call it today. KALI... ARNIS... ESKRIMA... FMA... FFA ...etc. That's because the art is alive and evolving the way combative arts are supposed to.

No one knows what the ancients called their fighting methods. Yet some of us don't want to call it what the Spaniards called it. It is our prerogative as warriors, as modern Maharlikas. There's no shame in the terms Arnis or Eskrima. But don't shame anyone who wishes otherwise. That's what Divide and conquer tactics were all about.

Call it what you want, because prior to the Spaniards... our ancestors did.

74  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Blade Magazine Review on: August 30, 2003, 06:37:32 PM
Check out Hank Reinhart's review of the HUNTED in the recent issue of Blade magazine. "Rambo and the 2000 pound bomb"

I don't know of Reinhart's knife background, but his opinion of the knife choreography as "poor" and the template training as unrealistic is interesting. So far, possibly the second negative review of the choreography out of all the HUNTED reviews I've read (another reviewer didn't like it because it lacked wirework). As a reader, I want reviewers to tell me WHY they have an opinion of something, however the tone and content of Reinhart's review is rather vague and condescending at best.

I think TLJ would have survived- they had a helicopter on standby, and he could have had medical attention as soon as the fight was over. That real life hiker survived without the arm he severed himself for a longer time period. I was rooting for Benicio to survive as well....HUNTED 2!!!..heh.

75  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / HUNTED on: August 18, 2003, 09:16:44 AM
Yes and No.

Modified for film.

FILM Factors:
Safety concerns
Scenario / Stage Setting
Camera Angles
Props and FX
Length of Screen Time
Training Time
Working with Stunt Doubles
Timing Beats / Emotional Rhythm
Team Effort
Communicating with Various Departments

But there's moves in there that are definitely utilizing Sayoc knife work.

The Training Sequence shows a modified vital template. It represents the base of the Sayoc methodology.

The difficult part of working in film, are that the factors above plus more are involved with the making of the fights - it has to be approved through a variety of folks - you have to demo a LOT - you have to teach in a short cut way while still getting the concepts across.

The easy part is that the fights scenes are all fun and games compared to the real life thing.

76  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / My Mother Passed Away 8/4/03 on: August 11, 2003, 06:21:08 AM
Sad news, David.
My sincere condolences to you and your family.

Take care,
77  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Myth in Martial Arts on: July 16, 2003, 12:21:36 PM
I don't have the magazine in front of me, but it may have been IKF which lists the top ten common myths in Martial Arts.

One of them was that the Spanish never prohibited the Filipinos from carrying weapons.

I don't know where they got this from but Spanish records contradict this.

Here is a list of weapon bans repeatedly issued by the Spanish government upon the Filipinos. They were called superior bandos.

December 29, 1763
February 9, 1764
August 3, 1765
January 19, 1771
February 1778
February 1783
October 1812
June 11, 1829

In detail is the Proclamation of 21, May 1844 issued in Cavite during the Tulisanes raids, which banned Filipinos and mestizos from carrying all kinds of weapons. Arms licenses was granted only to persons duly authorized by the provincial Spanish governor. The law applied to the use of guns, spears, swords and long daggers. However, no special permit was necessary for the use of spears measuring 5 varas with bamboo shafts utilized for hunting animals. Same applied to BLUNTED Bolos and pick axes. Penalty for carrying arms without a license was 6 months heavy labor.
Cavite Before the Revolution, page 92 Medina.

Being caught by the Spanish authorities carrying weapons can also lead them to suspect you as being a Tulisanes. In places like Imus, Cavite Spanish authorities under the supervision of friars would decapitate a Tulisanes and publicly display their heads in a cage at Imus plaza. Their bodies were also quartered prior to the beheading.

Some Tulisanes evaded prosecution by leaving Cavite and heading to the southern regions like Negros or to Basilan Island. One Tulisanes named Pedro Cuevas became a Datu (Datu Kalun) of the Yakans in Basilan.

By the 19th century, Cavite's dis- satisfaction with the repressive Spanish authorities had transformed the tulisan activity (once deemed as night time raiders) into a more focused form of peasant movement. In the end it would culminate into the Katipunan movement which spawned the Filipino Revolution of 1896.

--Rafael Kayanan--

Sayoc Kali
78  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / restall's book on: June 17, 2003, 05:38:12 PM
Yes David... the book is currently in print.

Crafty, I'd suggest checking out the same book. Good stuff. There's lots of info which support the African contributions. As you said, the slave trade was a bit different in SA. The Conquistadores would grant the slaves freedom if they distinguished themselves in battle against the natives... which became an incentive. Some of the Africans who helped are listed by the chroniclers by name.

However, much of the historical omission has to do with the way the Spanish viewed the slaves as a mere presence in their text but in the majority of cases, the Spanish made no effort to record an African's individual exploit or names. Whomever they were writing to probably cared even less.
79  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Spanish tactics on: June 17, 2003, 07:02:18 AM
<<But the case was definitely different in the Philippines. The Spanish Empire, which was already spread thin at that point, could afford to send out only comparatively small numbers of men to the Philippines.>>

I'd also like to add that by the end of the 1500's, Spains methods of warfare had evolved to small teams involved in covert search and destroy missions. As Restall wrote in Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest. There was even a book in 1599 titled, The Armed Forces and Description of the Indies by Bernardo de Vargas Machuca which is called, "The first manual on guerilla warfare ever written". This book was "advocating something that was already common practice among Spaniards in the Americas for a century" (Restall, pg. 32). Spain had abandoned linear formations hierachical units and permanent garrisons. Display violence was also mentioned to psych out the natives, thus supporting my earlier comments of the early introduction of arquebus fire as a method of installing intimidation and even fear.

Guro Crafty, Another thing to be considered are the thousands of Africans who came to the Americas as slaves and fought alongside the conquistadores. Much of their contribution has been ignored by the Spanish chroniclers of course. Again Restall states, " As with so much else in the evolution of the Conquest into a collage of myths (some of which David has also exposed in his mention of Cortes' status amongst the natives) subsequent historians and others consolidated this marginalization. Evidence of black roles is thus scattered and often opaque, but when the pieces are put together, it is incontrovertible".

Btw, Guro C, how much info can be gathered where you are in Mexico City about the origins of their knife systems? I have read other knife instructors here and there mention a Mexican knife fighting system. Often, it is to promote the tapes/books they are selling by downplaying FMA's contributions, as in "Filipinos are not the only ones who know the knife - so do Mexicans". Which with evolution of tactics is most likely the truth these days, but I wonder how far it goes back?

As many people do not know, the Tondo rebels during the early occupation of the Spaniards in Luzon were exiled to of all places... Mexico. Tondo is known in FMAs circles as the home of Illustrisimo and to many Filipinos as a very dangerous area... and these are the folks who weren't exiled! Subsequent galleons through hundreds of years also had many Filipinos jump ship and reside in Mexico. Intermingling and raising familes there. Some words in the Mexican dialect are rooted in old Tagalog. As David wrote, the Spaniards did not mention any blade culture prior to their arrival.

80  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Attn: Sun_Helmet--I need the famous "Arquebus" quo on: June 15, 2003, 11:16:42 AM
Hi David ? (what's the username for today...heh),

Thanks for your clarifications. I believe the eventual colonial trappings and the protectorate term would apply only to the northern regions of the islands. Places like Manila where Spanish alliances were easier to maintain. Places who had Moros as common enemies were also easier to pursue.

I'm just making sure that one success in one region does not make it so for the whole islands. Colonial mentality flourished in areas where the Spanish troops were able to hold fort and establish their culture as you mentioned.

Over fifty percent of the country were neither held nor allied to the Spanish crown during the the hundreds of years Spain was in the islands. In fact, the greatest amount of land taken by the Spaniards was only during Legaspi's eleven years on the islands. Spain could only hold those northern territories, and for hundreds of years, made numerous futile attempts to spread out into the south.

What usually happens is that an article comes out that doesn't mention this and it leads to further misconceptions. (by now, we're all very familiar of the HACA essay's misrepresentation of this )
The casual reader does not distinguish Mindanao from Manila. So if the article implies the whole Philippines was a protectorate of the Spaniards.. it will invalidate many good points in the article to many, while confusing more readers about how far Spain got to establishing a hold on parts of the islands.

Right after the eleven years that Legaspi and his nephew had great success in the northern areas, Spain had renewed confidence in thinking the rest of the islands would fall just as swiftly. They ventured into Moroland and were repelled several times.

Vic Hurley in Swish of the Kris (available online somewhere) wrote that after these renewed attempts failed, Spain's attitude towards the Southern Philippines was more like *avoidance* .

A digression - The Moros weakness in battle :

The one weakness in Moro tactics was seige warfare. If a Spanish force could raise a fort in the outskirts of Moroland, then they would be able to hold it for a short time. The Moros found out the hard way that big guns in fortifications and firearms well entrenched are difficult to overtake with hand held weapons. The Moro's forte was HTH skirmish. To utilize their strength they would allow the enemy to make a temporary fort if the enemy was heavily armed and then cut them off with constant harassment and guerilla tactics. The Moros were not below testing out the firepower of the fort by laying a suicidal seige upon it.

The rare Spanish force who could hold a fort for a time period were eventually cut off from supplies. The personnel inside the fort had trouble venturing out of the fort once they were targeted by the Moros. Their reinforcements were unable to venture in. Eventually, all the Spanish forts  fell.

Spain was able to hold forts in the northern areas since places like Manila  were located next to the waterways. They could get ammunition to the troops. However, at the heart of Moroland, the praus made hit and run tactics a frustrating experience for the Spaniards. The Moros would hit the subjugated northern /central regions even as Spain and tribal allies were seeking to attack them in their territory.

What is interesting is that in Hurley's book, the Moros referred to the conquered northern tribes as Filipinos. Hurley referred to the South as Moros. A group of tribes who were descendants of Oceanic Malays which were a strain of the Mainland Asians that covered much of Indonesia. According to Hurley's writings they were from the same Mongoloid race which spawned the Mongols, AmerIn., and Eskimos.
There's even some fun theory of Lemuria and Mu ... (Kull anyone?).

Pseudo anthropology...perhaps.

Language sometimes hint of this common thread... I found out this weekend that a Lakota sweat lodge is called an "ini ti" . Many Tagalogs will note the term for something hot is very close, "mainit" in Visayan it is "init", although both terms are understood throughout.

Probably way more info than required....

81  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / protectorate on: June 14, 2003, 01:56:48 AM
I would be more specific and say Manila (compared to other areas) would be the main city that would apply to Spain as the protectorate. History shows numerous battles were fought to gain access to the Luzon port city. To say the whole Philippines would falsely indicate Spain had all these other territories already secured to begin with. Nor would they necessarily be areas that other countries might covet.

From the Philippines POV they would say they were battling Spain, Spain's western enemies, other Asian invaders (Chinese, for example who also tried to take Manila) and most of all... other Filipinos.

So for some Filipino tribes ... Spain was but a convenient ally. A way to advance their tribe's self interest while lowering the chances of rival tribes threatening them. Little did they know they were eventually doing the work of the Spaniards for them.

82  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Arquebus on: June 08, 2003, 09:40:28 AM
A well done summary David.

Last year, in those earlier posts it was my intent to shatter the myth of the islands being taken by sword with a dream team of Spanish swordsmen. As you have stated, it was neither feasible, nor even the right time period for that to happen by the time the arquebus entered the scene of warfare. By the time Conquesta was a method of tactical warfare.

In addition, the Filipinos never considered themselves one nation. They had no concept of being a unified country with various tribes allied to fight the Spaniards. So essentially, the Spaniards knew this, but the islanders did not, or cared not to be unified (if you check out Crafty's Philippine current events posts - many still don't).

Some Filipinos thought of Spain as just another enemy in the line of many enemies. Or another ally that they could fight along with to defeat their own Filipino enemies - who at that time had a greater history of antagonism. Or just another foreigner willing to trade goods like the Arabs and Northern Asians. The islands were ripe for Conquesta.

As Spain fought enemies from outside their country, Filipinos fought from within and from many accounts viewed outsiders more favorably than their rival tribes.

Spain exploited the disunity of the islands. Only when the Spaniards unified a larger contingent of Filipinos under their religion and their language (giving them a way to communicate) did they actually expose Spain's weakness... Spain was few to their many.

I believe the Filipinos never thought of themselves as the majority on the islands, their perspective was: Our tribe versus the world. It was evidenced in their numerous dialects, possibly the very nature of  hundreds of islands .. their geography limiting their concept of a larger nation. Even their appearance were mixed, their body types and tribal appearance / customs.

Years later, the accounts of Spain's downfall during the Katipunan is also  very interesting. Here we have a detailed account of guns falling to sharp steel. Spain had more soldiers by then and certainly fortified in the north. Yet, it was now too late... the Filipinos knew they had to unite and by doing so, overwhelm the Spanish forces. Spain's guns beacme their guns... little by little.

Perspective had switched by then, Spain was at odds from within and they were falling apart from the center out. It was now Spain's turn to be ripe for the picking.

83  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Quote on: June 07, 2003, 09:17:24 AM
Francisco de Sande in his report to the Crown of Spain for the Legazpi expedition dated June 8, 1577, page 337, The Colonization and Conquest of the Philippines by Spain, VIII, "A collection of important source documents related to the Legazpi expedition of 1564..." by the Filipiniana Book Guild bound in 1965. Francisco de Sande sailed in from Acapulco, Nueva Espana and his letters were to the Crown. His accounts of the aftermath of the Chinese corsair Limahong's invasion of Manila is also good reading as it was from a first hand account. de Sande's observations are of note because it came from a perspective of one who had lived in South America, Spain and the Philippines during that time.

(CAPS are mine below as seen in the DB posts, however I went back and fixed some typos btw) :

"The Indians of this country are not simple or foolish, nor are they frightened by anything whatever. They can be dealt with ONLY BY THE ARQUEBUSE, or by the gifts of GOLD or SILVER. If they were like those of Nueva Espana, Peru, Tierra Firme, and in other explored places where the ships of Castilla may enter, sound reasoning might have some effect. But these Indians first inquire if they must be Christians, pay money, forsake their wives, and other similar things. They kill Spaniards so boldy, that WITHOUT THE ARQUEBUSES WE COULD DO NOTHING. This was the reason that Magallanes, Sayavedra, and those who came afterward from Nueva Espana were maltreated. All those who have been killed since the coming of Miguel Lopez de Legazpi received THEIR DEATH THROUGH THE LACK OF ARQUEBUSES. The Indians have thousands of lances, daggers, shields, and other pieces of armor, with which they fight so well. They have no leaders to whom they look up. THE HAVOC CAUSED BY THE ARQUEBUSE, and their own lack of honor, make them seek refuge in flight, and give obedience to our orders."
End quote.

However, as I mentioned way back... the arquebus had much more to do with Conquesta than the *sword alone* as well as religion, bartering (especially tribes aligning themselves to someone who promised them advanced weapons and other riches) were all successful tactics to use against the Filipinos. I believe any essay without the emphasis on the above would be an act equal to some of the old Spanish writers own slanted worldview (not that you will do this David but others have).

The conquesta happened over a course of hundreds of years as churches were built from the center out in many villages, divide /conquer methods were embedded, and the Spanish firepower /tactics also evolved.

The success led as quickly to their downfall because it exposed Spain's own faults and maltreatment to a wider audience and to the now "educated" Filipino. Even the most assimilated minded Filipinos finally realized that Spain was only in it for Spain. That promises were never going to be kept.

Revolution on an unprecedented unified scale in the islands ensued. What Spain had always tried to keep from happening. What Conquesta was designed to defeat.

Eventually the Philippines was lost just the same, as Ferdinand Blumentritt from Austria observed in 1899 when he wrote to Jose Rizal that the Spanish deluded themselves in their writings, in their words and their actions. The Spaniards  refused to see what many foreigners (meaning other Europeans) like him saw. Blumetritt even added that :" The (Spanish) friars at least know well that their power, their rule, will surely fail with or without the will of Spain and so try by all means and with the help of pious frauds to postpone the end of their downfall."

It was ironic to read Blumetritt's description of Spain's policies as that of "global terrorism" considering it was written over a hundred years ago.

84  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Matrix - Jet LI on: May 30, 2003, 10:49:34 PM
Jet Li made a smart choice in doing HERO instead. He would have fallen into the bg in the MATRIX-RL.

I've seen HERO and not only was it a better script but the production values equal and in many parts surpass the MATRIX. They did some scenes that bordered on the poetic... without the digital effects taking over.

I'd recommend checking out HERO when it comes to you on the big screen.

I didn't dislike the new MATRIX... however, I kept thinking that if one can propel their body through the heavens and disrupt the momemtum of bullets... how does he keep his punches from exiting the body cavity of his opponents?
Pages: 1 [2]
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!