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1  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Flash Elorde on: November 21, 2007, 01:34:52 AM
Quote from: Rafael Kayanan

As per Pacquiao, I thought he was from Mindanao. Did he train in Elorde's gym when he was in the islands?


Hi Rafael,
Pacquiao is from General Santos, Mindanao, i'm 90% sure of this.  but, Yes he is Bisaya.  i'm in L.A. (originally from Cebu City) and a great fan of Pacquiao.  for the last month and half now i've religiously taken my early lunch breaks at a Thai restaurant below the Wild Card gym in Hollywood, get my lunch to-go and spend my whole lunch hour watching Pacquiao spar and train. and chit chat with Boy, one of Pacquiao's trainers. the guy's an amazing fighter--movement, power, everything, he's got it all.

as for Elorde's gym, not sure, but he did train in Cebu City (not sure if that's where he started, or just continued his training there; but there's a handful of quality boxing stables and trainers in Cebu, who are also connected to the whole Eskrima subculture there, these folks basically move around in the same circles)

Pacquiao was born in General Santos, his roots come from Pinamungajan, west cebu.  Gabriel "Flash" Elorde comes from Bogo City, North Cebu the hometown of Sonny Umpad.  The Flash started his boxing career while working as a bootblack in Cebu City.  His early ring name was "KRS Flash"....KRS stands for Kintanar Radio Station, a certain Kintanar from Cebu City was one of his early managers.  He was beaten by "Kid Independence" in his first attempt at the Philippine featherweight crown in Cebu City.  Mesyot a.ka. Kid Independence, if he is still alive is around 88 years old...he used to shine shoes for my late dad when he retired from boxing.  I saw the Flash beat up Teruo Kosaka in a championship bout at the Cebu Coliseum sometime in the sixties.

I have my strong doubts about FMA influencing modern boxing sad...look further into the records and styles of the early innovators like Gene Tunney and Jack Dempsey before jumping into conclusion.  I have firsthand info though that the legendary Flash studied Balintawak Eskrima under the tutelage of Anciong Bacon...according to his batchmate Baltazar "Iti" Gumapon that he trained together with former Mandaue City Mayor Pedong Ouano and TUCP (Trade Union Congress of the Philippines) honcho Democrito Mendoza.  That is a verifiable fact! wink
2  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Re: Umpad Corto-Kadena on: August 23, 2007, 04:18:02 AM
I got the go ahead from Guro Chris to post a little of his article about the Moro part of Sonny's system. I believe Guro Jay and others have more to add, but here is what he wrote:

     " Sonny’s Moro footwork is the subject of some confusion. Sonny told us it was based on the “Sayow Moro-Moro”, which is a classical Filipino dance. Others have tried to link the movements to the “Comedia”, or stage play of the same name. Some claim it is related to the “Moro-Moro” style Eskrima of Grand Master Telesporo Subing Subing. Sonny never met the master, although he expressed interest in this art. Some say these movements are called “kalimbay”, or “crab”, because of the proximity of the player’s body to the ground.

      Sonny’s Moro footwork basically consists of toes pointing out, movements started high and ending low. Also, it refers to the moving along in a low crouch in order to get under an opponent’s blows. The Moro crouch adds tremendous power and sweep to downward blows. When the player finally uncoils upward from the crouch, he is able to put his entire body behind the blow. The low crouching positions of the Moro footwork also allows the practitioner to disappear during combat by suddenly dropping out of the line of sight. This tactic can create openings and opportunities during a conflict.

      In addition to power, this footwork allows one to make a smaller target of oneself. Once, while working nightclub security, I was encircled by rowdy customers. When charged, I hit the closest, dropped into a Moro, and affected my escape. I came up behind the brawlers, and my backups and I were able to overcome the problem."

Hopefully the whole of Guro Chris's article will be published soon. We have been working on the photographs these past couple of weeks.

More to follow....

Maija is correct... let me add:

I guess a lot of us got the wrong impression that this footwork is derived from the Moros of Mindanao. The answer is a big NO. The correct term for this footwork would be Moro-moro. The Moro-moro system was developed in southwest Cebu and one of its major exponents the earliest pioneers of eskrima in the U.S. - the late Telesporo Subing-Subing of Balamban a townmate of the early migrant workers like Jack Santos, Lucky Lucaylucay, Juanito Lacoste and Felix Goc-ong. NOW WHERE DID THE TERM Moro-moro originate? Moro-moro is also called linambay (from the root word lambay or CRAB, linambay means crab-like) in Cebu, but the former is the more popular term amongst Cebuano which is actually a Komedya or a stage play, a colorful pageantry depicting the Spaniards conquest of the Mohammedan Moors of Southern Spain in the 15th century. Eskrima is part and parcel of the Moro-moro play. It is also called linambay because of the actor warriors movement in the mock battle which mimic the low mounted walk of the crabs, AND YES just like Sonny Umpad's footwork. The Moro-moro or Linambay plays faded from the scene after World War II and was replaced by the Zarzuela which had more contemporary themes. The last Moro-moro play I saw was in the early sixties during the town fiesta of Sonny's hometown in Bogo City

and to quote Christine Godinez-Ortega in her article on this link:

Many stories abound about the origins of the San Miguel Comedya and many descendants of claimants to the authorship of the original script. But there are no extant documents to set the records straight.

The San Miguel Comedya was reportedly first staged around 1900 in Iligan, 263 years after the first moro-moro was believed to have been staged in Manila 1637 to celebrate the defeat of Sultan Kudarat by Spanish conquistadores led by Hurtado de Corcuera.

For 300 years of Spanish colonization, the Spaniards saw the powerful influence of theater proselytizing or propagating Christianity.

and here's more from that article, mentioning eskrima in the plays:

The surprise elements in the play were the intermission number consisting of the "eskrima," a part of the Sinulog, and the "diyandi," an Iligan creative dance which is really a pact between Maranaos and Higaunons in their homage to San Miguel. The "eskrima" and the "diyandi" are not part of the comedya.

One can be distressed no end if one brings in his pre-conceived notion of theater that is Western or Hollywoodish. Indeed, appreciation of the comedya has to be taken in the context of what is and its original purpose. This, of course, needs to be explained to the present generation who is constantly shaped by the aesthetics of MTV.

3  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts on: May 23, 2005, 04:41:35 AM
Quote from: Sun_Helmet
Quote from: antoy

That is FILIPINO Martial Arts.

Once you discredit their legacy by forcing them into standards created by others, you are dangerously watering down what appealed to outside cultures to begin with - Effectiveness of their combative mindset.

Quote from: antoy
Moreover, it's not my agenda to deprecate the Moro people, their culture and arts, frankly I believe they deserve a homeland...but that's a way bit off the topic here. wink Cheers!

Well and good. I'm just pointing out the bigger picture to you. FMA is not one tribe's... it is the history of the islands and ALL our ancestors. There's many excellent Eskrima and Arnis Filipino instructors, they are PART of the legacy but they do not have sole claim to Filipino martial history.

Again, we need to learn the lessons of a Divided and Conquered mentality.

Btw, is there a Musashi samurai school?
Is there a Macedonian Martial Arts Seminar anywhere?
How about el - Tawil's scimitar sparring class?

Based on your limited criteria, these great warriors never had a REAL martial art.


Yes... no argument on the  foregoing    .... and let me add, there's no Sitting Bull Dojo, or a Geronimo Martial Arts Institute, or Egil Skalagrimsson Sword School!.. Musashi comes from the Niten-Ichi Ryu Dojo, yes but he did not systematize his system which was considered unorthodox during his era.

 cry You got me wrong, I stated clearly that whatever MARTIAL ART they practiced, it did not have any influence on modern day eskrima, neither is their proof that it is the so-called mother art Kali.   It would be foolish to assume they did not have a martial art, let's say for the sake of argument that they may only have a few slashes, cuts and thrusts...nonetheless it is still a martial art by any standard!  it may not be as systematized as the FMA and the Chinese and the Japanese arts.

Even, Olympic style fencing many European martial arts enthusiasts argue is no longer related to Renaissance rapier fencing, which probably became extinct by the turn of the 18th century.  

And I have no argument either that the FMA is the legacy of the entire Filipino people not just a few select tribes.  What i found atrocious is that a lot of the FMA in the U.S. seem to mislead everyone by solely giving credit to the Moro people for the FMA, you can see instructors and guros in full Moro regalia, and it's all over the internet.  I hope you see my point here:?
4  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts on: May 22, 2005, 04:03:47 AM
Quote from: Sun_Helmet
Quote from: antoy

 Where's Moro Grandmaster?

Look at your last question... "Where's Moro Grandmaster?"...

That's what I'm talking about.
"Grandmaster" was never a term used by anyone in the Philippines prior to a hundred years ago. That's a systemized foreign based framework (Spanish, Japanese, American) that you are trying to fit into another culture. We all know that historically, tribal leaders WERE that tribes 'GrandMasters'... they were warriors.

Some FMA instructors and students desire to invalidate the fighting prowess of the 'Moros' by this method. Development of teaching methods founded on a foreign criteria which suits the commercialized MA structures of today does not lessen the historical fighting prowess of the Moros.

Quote from: antoy
If indeed those Moro blades were effective against the Visayans whose villages they have raided for hundreds of years, then why have they not gained a permanent foothold of the Visayan villages, they have raided for hundreds of years


Okay, okay, just spoofing the most abused title in the FMA ...and I agree that the title grandmaster is a recent adaptation modelled after the Chinese and Japanese martial arts ranking. SO, let me rephrase the question...Where's the Moro Kali expert? Where are the Kali schools in Mindanao?

It's not a question of demonizing the Moro fighting prowess, no martial artist in his right mind will question that! The issue is - whatever martial art they practiced that until now has not surfaced; that has a traceable verifiable lineage down to at least a hundred years definitely did not influence the highly technical FMA - eskrima, arnis estokada that we see today. The Ilustrisimo system has an authentic lineage that dates back 200 years ago. Other Visayan systems may have an even older pedigree. You see, all of the systems named Kali, trace back their lineage to the Visayan region and not to Muslim Mindanao.  How can you reconcile with that? The crux of this debate is not the name Kali per's the claim that Kali is the mother of eskrima, arnis. Eskrima, arnis, estokada is a cultural heritage of the Cebuanos, Ilonggos, and Pampangos, anyone serious about the FMA should respect that!   wink  

Let's stop mumbling about "TRUE" agenda, demonizing Moros, neither are there any racial undertones in this thread!  there's none! Let's stick to the issue, show us a Moro warrior that can trace his lineage 200 years back. It's that simple, no need to over intellectualize.

Moreover, it's not my agenda to deprecate the Moro people, their culture and arts, frankly I believe they deserve a homeland...but that's a way bit off the topic here. wink Cheers!
5  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts on: May 21, 2005, 12:54:20 AM
Quote from: Sun_Helmet
A way to promote that the way Visayan Filipinos were taught stick and blade is the only way to view what FMA is all about.

It all depends on the your perspective... It was obviously no secret that bladed arts exists in Mindanao, someone was cutting off all those Spanish heads. Was this FMA? If not, then perhaps FMA students will want to learn THAT martial art instead, because it was quite effective against the Visayans and their Spanish allies! wink


With all due respects, I've talked with commanders in Zamboanga including concurrent Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Edilberto Adan to really delve into the combat mindset of the Moro rebel.  And what I got was really scary... one of the General's aides a certain Major Bermudez revealed the the Moro fighters were averse to formation combat and were individualistic fighters and very difficult to discipline, however, their only weapon is the suicidal charge that SCARED the heck out of the Spaniards, subsequently the Americans and the Visayan mercenaries.  

Yes, the Junior officers and ranking commanders of the MILF and MNLF had rigid military trainig, but in contrast whatever type of training the rank and file had were basically- charge! aim, and fire...  Not because the field commanders were bad trainers, it's the culture of "die and go to paradise" that has been ingrained in the mind of the typical Moro warrior.  That would have been the same type of martial training they had more than 300 years ago - charge!, cut and slash!  Other non-Muslim tribes in Mindanao like the Subanon, Tiroray, Bukidnon, Manobo, Hongking also possess an array of bladed weapons, but they have practically no weapons based organized martial art!

If indeed those Moro blades were effective against the Visayans whose villages they have raided for hundreds of years, then why have they not gained a permanent foothold of the Visayan villages, the Moro settlement in Cebu City is just a small block in Pasil and none in the coastal towns they once raided.  In contrast more 80 % of Mindanao speak Cebuano Visayan language.  So the question is:  Who conquered whom?  Where's Moro Grandmaster?
6  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Training Music on: May 16, 2005, 03:52:06 AM
cheesy One of my best practice albums is Van Halen's For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge...the song Man in a Mission in particular is one of my favorites for doing fast furious carrenza exercises.  There's never been a rock album with so many good songs.

If you want something more percussive get a copy of Sergio Mendes' Brazilerio album.  There's a load of Tropicalia/Bahia sounds in this album.  Cheers! wink
7  DBMA Martial Arts Forum / Martial Arts Topics / Possible Spanish influence on FMA re-revisited... on: May 12, 2005, 04:18:17 AM
shocked The involvement of Spanish priests in the development of eskrima is just one facet of Macachor's and Nepangue's contention on the Spanish influences of eskrima and the whole kali mother of FMA issue.  Visit the site again, it's just been updated with new mind-boggling articles:

And I would also like to mention some of the Spanish priests teaching famous eskrimadors during the colonial period:

 Fr. Angel Maestro - mentor of Cebuano hero Leon Kilat.
 Fr. Jose Ortega - patriarch of DX Combat eskrima of of Dalaguete, south Cebu.  The last surviving inheritor is farmer Eduardo "Dadoy" Sombilon who is now 74 years currently residing in Barangay "Balisong" which used to be called Campo because of the presence of an old Spanish Garrison.  

Fr. Bermejo of Boljoon as mentioned by Evangeline Lavilles de Paula who successfully defended the town of Boljoon from Moro pirates by training local warriors.  

To top it all here's an archaelogical link to the famous battle grounds of eskrima.  wink
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