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Author Topic: Multiple player situations  (Read 5632 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: November 13, 2006, 02:44:16 PM »

Woof All:

Like the titile says, this thread is for situations involving more than 1 vs. 1.

We begin with an early FMA example:

www.youtube.com
username:Lapu22
password: planetx
click on "my videos"

Lapu Lapu


TAC,
CD
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sting
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2006, 05:19:00 AM »

Woof Marc,

How do you search by username for this video ?  I tried to search by username and video name in the search box.  The only video that came up is some sort of kids in a pool video.

Thanks,

Gints
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
3rd Degree Black Belt Instructor

Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
Gentlemen's Fighting Club
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2006, 09:37:48 AM »

Gints:

You need to login not with your username/login and password, but with the ones I give.
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2006, 01:42:51 PM »

OK I found a video, kind of controversial but I do think it has some validity, I don't know what the guy is being arrested for and he probably deserves whatever he gets. The only footage I think that is worthwhile is 00:33 - 00:41.  Had this guy in a training scenario I would give him kudos for using pre-emptive striking and evasion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZPAzj_j2Tg

Guro Marc, if you dont think it is appropriate then please delete...
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"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2006, 02:10:33 PM »

Lots of interesting details in this e.g. Cop1 exposing himself to pre-emption by taking right lead to reach for PS with his left hand and his right hand down and across his body.

I'm guessing that these three cops think that they are required to use PS, but it such tight quarters is that really the policy? 
Anyone?
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TomFurman
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2006, 03:39:36 PM »

Simple clinching and some knees to the lower body would have calmed him down. That may not be procedure. When he was getting the finger prints he should have had his left webhand("Y" hand or Tiger Mouth), behind the suspects right arm, and his right hand on the fingers. As the guy went nuts, he could have maintained quarter position, or gone to the back position for a takedown, control and cuffing. Then stick the pepper spray in his mouth and empty it wink)

The cop reaching for the spray that broke away was AFRAID of getting in. He stood back and watched his buddies fight while he fumbled for the spray thinking he will drop the guy without getting roughed up, and look very cool doing it. Well it didn't go well.

--Tom Furman
www.physicalstrategies.blogspot.com
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2006, 06:15:30 PM »

Quote
When he was getting the finger prints he should have had his left webhand("Y" hand or Tiger Mouth), behind the suspects right arm, and his right hand on the fingers.


Yeah I was thinking about that and something similar like if he could have maintained control with the left hand behind the suspects elbow, and the right hand on the suspects hand then maybe a pivot into an armbar or maybe slide / step in with a foot trap or slide in behind ... I know there is a Silat type type of armbar that could be worked in there too I just dont know how to describe it accurately.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 01:38:44 PM by Robertlk808 » Logged

"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed
Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2007, 06:55:06 PM »

Thanks to peregine I found this thread on another forum and I thought people here may find it interesting as well.

http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=3802

Fighting The Trained Wolf Pack

Several years ago I wrote an article called, “Fighting Multiple Opponents” which can be found at:

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/Fighting%20Multiple%20Opponents.doc

In this article, the first sentence of the last paragraph I wrote stated:

“ I have trained to fight the wolf pack, but I doubt the wolf pack has trained to fight cohesively against me”

Well, as reality does sometimes, I need to reframe my beliefs specific to this issue. Although the principles of my original article still stand from a tactical and strategic standpoint, the issue of a coordinated Wolf Pack attack, although a rarity, CAN BE a reality. I offer the following links for your viewing to demonstrate coordinated Wolf Pack training with criminal intent (to view you must sign up with youtube.com, which is free):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6_lyetZJJw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfO0tsLsDFg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HBx3QjBUFQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PElgUyq-OM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ZzZoJBGy8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Z_ge0Fc7Y



Here are some of my thoughts specific to what I observed in these clips:


- These guys understand environmental training that is scenario based, including training in street clothes and low light conditions

- Notice how these guys utilize triangulation strategy to their advantage

- Notice how the head appears to be a primary target

- Notice how these guys “engage with rage” with violent intent that is designed to overwhelm their intended targets emotionally, psychologically, and physically with continual compound attacks.

- Notice how these guys practice a variety of different attacks from all positions and how they also practice on targets that are standing, sitting, prone, sitting in a car, sitting in a chair

- Notice the use of a belt from all angles as an improvised weapon

- Notice the use of the rear choke by one threat, while the others pommel from the front.

- Notice the use of language as a set up

- Notice that if the victim is wearing a hat, the threats will tip the hat down from the rear, pushing it forward, thus visually obscuring the victim, which is then immediately followed up with a frontal attack that can not be seen

- Notice how that techniques used are gross motor based, nothing fancy.

- Notice how these guys are training with imagination and emotion (http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/Neural_Based_Scenario_Training.doc) which allows them to train in “state”



To be very honest, these guys GET IT when it comes to training and fighting in the real world, and have much to offer those of us who are willing to remove the blindfold of martial ego, and are willing to spit out the Kool-Aid of willful blindness based upon tradition and false Hollywood (or even sensi) beliefs. I know that some who will view these videos will say that these guys have no honor, no pure technique, are sloppy in their application; but I say who firckin cares, these guys, and their tactics, are simple, violent, and extremely effective, and in the end, when the dust settles, all that counts is the final outcome !!!!!


As I stated, I continue to believe that the strategies and principles for fighting multiple opponents that I shared in my original article are still valid. I do, however, believe that awareness of these types of coordinated Wolf Pack tactics; do change some strategic applications, especially in the pre-contact phase of a confrontation:


- Awareness, Awareness, Awareness is key. These types of predatory attacks, although coordinated, can be picked up in the early stages by one’s etheric sense, but one has to trust their gut instinct. Awareness of these videos can also condition one’s subconscious brain to be more hypersensitive to these tactics, thus increasing one’s etheric radar.

- Movement is key, when stationary (standing, sitting, prone) triangulation becomes far more easier for the Wolf Pack to utilize to their advantage


- Maintaining a reactionary gap is extremely important wherever possible. Notice in the video clips, triangulation is being combined with what I like to call, “closing the gap” which provides a tactical advantage to the Wolf Pack when it comes to first strike. You cannot allow these guys close enough to put their hands on, during what I like to call the “assessment or infiltration stage”. If the Wolf Pack is closing the gap, the game is on, and one must now think about attacking first

- Many of the attacks were telegraphed before engagement. Being aware of “Ritualized Combat” is extremely important http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/Ritualized%20Combat.doc

- The use of a real or improvised weapon should be considered. Having said this however, if one does not have their weapon in hand ready to immediately deploy during the pre-contact phase, then the reality is to do so will be very very difficult once the Wolf Pack has moved to the attack/contact phase. I have heard many who espouse to the use of weapons in such scenarios, that they would just shoot, cut, or bludgeon their way through the Wolf Pack. As one can appreciate after watching the videos, many of the tactics used by the coordinated Wolf Pack are designed to negate one’s ability to get to a weapon. So unless you have the weapon in hand ready to go during the pre-contact phase, negative time framing to get to the weapon works in favor of the Wolf Pack once they engage physically.



Remember that fighting multiple opponents, or the trained coordinated Wolf Pack, is chaotic and extremely violent. It is my opinion that these types of confrontations should be considered a “Deadly Force” threat !!!!!!! The risk of serious injury, or even death, is very real and as such, Neural Based Scenario Training, based upon the above noted videos, are a must to counter these coordinated Wolf Pack tactics. Proper Pre Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.



Darren Laur
www.personalprotectionsystems.ca
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"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed
peregrine
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2007, 01:31:15 AM »

i hate when this happens... i'm at work and someone asked to use my cpu, so i open the browser for them, but they end up deleting my partial response to this thread. lol.


i'll try to summarize...

at first glance this video clips look like a JOKE multiples abusing BOB. but if you delve into  it you see what they are doing and it becomes pretty apparent they are training as a unit to take individuals out.

ok on to the topic
How do you fight multiples?

first let us consider the mindset of a pack - What motivates them? What do they Fear? What is the hierarchy? etc...


second What is a "WIN" against multiples? do you need to neutralize every single one? how motivated are they? are they of altered mental status? hadjis looking for their salvation? strung up on ice? revenge(may be the worst)? are they ready to die horribly? is it random gang initition? etc...
or do you need to just forcefully suggest they step back and opt for a tactical advance- Backwards? evil


To fight multiples i have come to several theories
1. force escalation - weapon employment, maximum force with maximum carnage, mindset to do what may be Ugly, pre-mept strike
2. training - one should train with multiple realistic opponents in dynamic situations, one must be willing to accept his own mortality yet not take his life carelessly... how does one harness the maximum use of the mind so that the body does not fear pain or death? gpp is often a key role... discipline the body and mind becomes a sharp weapon, slack on your gpp and your mind could suffer.

there are several subcategories-
geography and environment
postioning of oppoents and yourself/loved ones

here is some clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx67-09iaD4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7z5hpgbbR8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufSJ6FMYvUQ

Will you always dominate and WIN? maybe, maybe not. but what you can do is optimize your Odds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2XX6rxS8yI



molon labe

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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 08:19:26 PM »

Fascinating story of a pro MMA fighter against several people in Bali:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2007, 12:22:53 PM »

In as much as I admire his skill/luck in the situation, I have to give Mr. Faber two huge thumbs down for being stupid enough to engage locals in a bar fight, especially in a Third World country.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2007, 05:35:36 PM »

His final comments seem to indicate that he is still working on this lesson.  No doubt Life will offer it to him again.
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2007, 05:51:32 PM »

Apparently (key word, APARENTLY),
  One thing he left out (obvious that he would not want to disclose) is that he was intoxicated.  It might be a good reason for the irrational thought that it would be a good idea to fight.  He did say however that the thought ran through his head that if he gets seriously hurt he would not be able to fight his next event and lose out on the cash.

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
peregrine
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2007, 03:32:24 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGgfGA_vzIk
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 11:47:46 PM »

Multiple Attacker Sport Fighting:

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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Rarick
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2009, 05:36:31 AM »

looking at all of those vids, and Uriahs account it seems your best and most valuable defense is mobility.   The ability limit the number of attackers, and maybe move out of their tribal area.  Looking at a Parkour Video (posted on the Videos thread?) showing a chase scene from "area 13" where a guy faces at least 4 and runs seems to highlight mobility as well.

Move and strike for no more than 1 or 2 beats seems to be the best tactic.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2010, 08:09:59 PM »

Pasting here Andraz's post:

My first topic on here, hello everyone. 


Here is some food for thought, would appreciate your guys' input. Its a part of my discussion with guro Crafty.

We were doing alot of multiple opponent strategies lately, and I noticed that alot of people have serious problems attacking/defending/working in pairs or more. Of course the easiest and fastest method is the ole throw down kick the shit out version, but we put ALOT of attenuation to the use of force continuum for officials, and law for civilians (fighting is not self defense) so that comes out of the question. Anything with more "damage control" not to mention "professionalism" is downright hard. People stumble upon each other, get in the way, hit one another, just general chaos, most of the times even worse than a trained man working alone.

Thats why we do, what I call MMFS-mismatched fighting scenarios.


Participants work in pairs, trios, against mismatched, sometimes also uneven odds. They also get a goal to work towards to, so its not just random brawling. Some short examples are, to put a person in handcuffs within 2 minutes, or to guard a vip person behind them as best as they can against more attackers....etc. even if they are failing, point is to instill the correct focus, mindset of working against all odds. Safety equipment protocols are same as for Gatherings. Other "tools" include, backpack, staff, all types of stick, belt with buckle, suitcase, knife and improvised weapons of all sorts, even a chair.

The "beauty" of it is you cannot rely on your regular gameplan, like, I dont know, going to the ground, breaking the distance, going to clinch and work from there etc... because you never know in which type of situation you are going to start the fights (because untill the whistle is blown you dont know which weapon you are going to be given) and there are ALWAYS more people around, so you have to constantly adapt.


That in mind what are your thoughts (or experiences if you have ever done anything similar?) with doing theset types of mismatched scenarios for our RCSF dog brothers gatherings ?? Say 3 on 1, solo has staff + backup knife in holster, trio-one empty hand, other short stick, third some other instrument, maybe sports bag or something like that. Or other combinations, 4 on 2, etc... basically the strenght in numbers must balance out in lack of firepower.

Like I said, some food for thought, would love to get some feedback on that.


Actually, we have one such event coming up on monday, so I will try to put up pics and videos as soon as they are available.

wuff from Slovenia

Andraz
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stilljames
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2010, 02:07:00 PM »

In Many vs Few/One, It helps if the Many has a strong, clear leader.  Sort of like a wolf pack. Smiley 

With people, there is a lot of psychology to work.  Few people are willing to be the first person to get hit when their is someone else  they can let be the person.  Or, dominant egos come out and start clashing.  People get tunnel vision on the "I need to do X' rather than 'I should do X so my buddy can do Y and then we can get Z done."  Get people used to planning out a scenario, talking it out and the going through a set scenario a few times.  Fail them if they don't talk or communicate.  After they get used to that, then start putting the random curves back in.

We all love neat, intricate dances.  But sometimes it is necessary to take it back down to a simpler level to learn a lesson.

I remember visiting a friend's dojo.  Towards the end of the night, we started doing 2:1 drills.  I was partnered with a black belt against a more senior black belt.  I started towards the senior student and started talking to the female I was working with:  "I'll get his attention. You smack him from behind when I do."  It worked out fairly well.  And it confused the target.  If you're used to working with the same people, it can be worked out with little more than a glance.

Another way to work it:  Give people a 'coach' and have them work with someone else telling them what to do.  And then have the two people switch roles.  This gets people used to listening and talking while their heartbeat is racing.   There are a bazillion teamwork development games out there.
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Dr Dog
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2010, 09:32:23 PM »

Woof all - this is an area of interest for me. most of my years of training has been in aikido, and as you become more advanced, there becomes increasing emphasis on an exercise called randori. this is basically multiple person attack. I know that aikido does not get a lot of respect and some circles, but just like with stick fighting, there is aikido and then there is aikido, and a lot of it depends on the practitioners involved, the individual's skill level and the attitude of the school.  part of the reason for the nature of the movements in aikido is that there is always an assumption that there is more than one person involved, and many of aikido's techniques and throws really do come into their own in a multiple person environment.  a couple thoughts:
First, this is a skill that can be practiced like any other, and it benefits from starting slowly and increasing intensity and numbers gradually.  Unfortuantely most schools that don't practice this regularly, and suddenly decide to just add a second or third person in "to see what happens". Surprise! The lone defender is overwhelmed. When people first start out it is almost comical to watch the tunnel vision and difficulty dealing with the input from several attackers. Like anything else, with gradual increases in the intensity of attack a number of attackers, you do get much better at this. The key here is GRADUAL - too much too quickly in the brain shuts down or the person loses all technique. Worse, they get locked up with one person and stop moving, which leads to the second observation

Second, this is all about movement, movement, movement. doing basic motion exercises where there is actually no attack and you are simply moving to safe angles is a great beginning drill - try this; have everybody hold their hands behind their back so that there will be no striking, and three people will simply try to "belly buck" the person who is in the middle, and that person will simply try to move in such a way as to not allow the others to do that. if you can keep from laughing long enough to finish the exercise, you will discover that you actually learn where to be and how to move in a very nonthreatening and fun environment. THen repeat but each attacker can only use ONE angle of attack;  you will find that people move a lot bette than if you just jump in there balls to the wall from the get go without some basic principles of movement.

Thirdly, after movement, this is also about technigue selection. Takedowns are not a great defense strategy here but shoves and throwdowns are wonderful because you can use one attacker against another briefly. Technique selection on the move can also be practiced and developed.

lastly, I wholeheartedly agree with a observation that it is difficult to get people to attack in a coordinated manner.  We are so drilled into this idea of taking turns attacking that it takes some work to undo this, but again learning to attack as a team is something else that can be practiced.  Ironically, when two people attack at the same time from different directions that actually creates wonderful opportunities to use one person's energy against the other and they start getting in each other's way. Our experience in aikido randori was that 3 attackers is optimal for the attack - more than that and the attackers actually start to inhibit each other more than help. It may be hard to believe that 5 is easier than 3, but its true (assuming an open environment, and the defender actually knwos how to MOVE - in closed space or limited mobility this is pretty much mootanyway)- when you watch as many of these as I did in 17 years, you realize that only 3 can get in there and the other 2 are effectively holding back anyway and impairing the others mobility. Obviously, a person who is outnumbered is at a huge disadvantage, but a little good footwork and good maneuvering can make it extremely difficult to finish that person off. creative drills on this really do add a lot of spice and fun to any class. I really miss doing this.
Rick
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