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Author Topic: Panantukan & Kali Tudo  (Read 6358 times)
armydoc
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« on: November 22, 2006, 01:21:50 AM »

Greetings all!!!

Panantukan is my favorite aspect of the FMA's.  I love the way that the FMA empty-hand material is grafted so effectively onto a western boxing base.   I recently purchased and have worked thru the Kali Tudo videos and was impressed with the content.  I'm looking to more installments in this series!   Having also seen and worked on the stick material, I know that the dog brother approach to some extent is to take the "traditional" drills and training methods and put them into the crucible of the fight and see what shakes out.   I've been impressed with the training drills that are presented on the stick videos that are obviously a "been there and done that" summary of what works.   So my question is this......

How much of the Panantukan material has been found to hold up in a real fighting situation in the dog brother experience?   What has not been found to be reliably effective?   On the Kali Tudo DVDs I didn't see limb destructions discussed.   Seems to me that this would be one aspect that would show up pretty well and really help the cage fighter.   After all, its very acceptable to pound a guy's quad with round kicks to reduce his mobility and kicking ability....why not pound a guy's biceps with elbow strikes to reduce his ability to punch? 

Anyway....I realize that I have managed to write a rather rambling post.  smiley    The main thing I am interested is seeing discussed is the relationship between "traditional" Panantukan and the Kali Tudo approach to empty-hand fighting.   Thanks!

Keith
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TomFurman
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2006, 03:46:54 PM »

To add to that question. When at Gaje's camp in PI, you trained with a Panantukan/Suntukan instructor. How did his material vary from the Lucky Lucaylucay material that Guru Inosanto teaches (also from LaCoste, Villabraille, etc).?

My feeling is that MMA gunteens end up like Rodney King's Crazy Monkey with elbow destructions primarily. Someone who has seen Vinnie Giordano's DVD's from the Thai General on Muay Boran said that these positions (CM), are common in empty hand Thai. Rodney just got the okay to teach the methods of his older Thai instructor while in Thailand. Very interesting.

There are some cool Russian bareknuckle fights on Youtube. Very nice and you have to watch and draw parallels to The Inosanto flavored Panantukan.

--Tom Furman
www.physicalstrategies.blogspot.com
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2006, 04:47:32 PM »

Hi Tom,
Any chance you can post the keyword used to find the "Bareknuckle" fights or possibly the links themselves?? ?

Thanks
Robert

Was it these two?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRqI5kOpJzw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jAqd6YeC10
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 04:51:45 PM by Robertlk808 » Logged

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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2006, 06:44:43 PM »

Tom:

"To add to that question. When at Gaje's camp in PI, you trained with a Panantukan/Suntukan instructor. How did his material vary from the Lucky Lucaylucay material that Guru Inosanto teaches (also from LaCoste, Villabraille, etc).?"

To be precise, the training with Manong Kalimba (sp?) was at GT Gaje's home in Bacolod.  GT recently informed me that he had passed away and cleared me to share what I was shown.  A bit of my footage with him may appear in the upcoming  DBMA "Kali Tudo 2: Striking and Clinch".  Poor lineage historian that I am, I am unable to break down clearly the different feeder systems of Inosanto Blend EH.   Much was familiar to me, but there were some very interesting differences too.

"My feeling is that MMA gunteens end up like Rodney King's Crazy Monkey with elbow destructions primarily. Someone who has seen Vinnie Giordano's DVD's from the Thai General on Muay Boran said that these positions (CM), are common in empty hand Thai. Rodney just got the okay to teach the methods of his older Thai instructor while in Thailand. Very interesting."

Completely consistent with, or better yet, a good example of, Guro Inosanto's concept of the common thread of the arts of the Majapahit Empire.

I agree that elbow destructions are one of the first applications of Panantukan.

Keith: 

I will get to your questions later.

TAC,
CD
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TomFurman
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2006, 10:49:48 PM »

Hi Tom,
Any chance you can post the keyword used to find the "Bareknuckle" fights or possibly the links themselves?   

Thanks
Robert

Was it these two?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRqI5kOpJzw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jAqd6YeC10
Yes, those are the ones. I actually posted them on my blog and gave reference to a page on Russian Martial Arts history.
--Tom
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armydoc
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2006, 12:38:59 AM »

Guro Crafty:

 A bit of my footage with him may appear in the upcoming? DBMA "Kali Tudo 2: Striking and Clinch".?

---That sounds great!  Both seeing the footage, hearing about what you learned there, and the upcoming Kali Tudo release!   Any general timeframe yet for when the new DVD will be available?

 Poor lineage historian that I am, I am unable to break down clearly the different feeder systems of Inosanto Blend EH.? ?Much was familiar to me, but there were some very interesting differences too.

--Its always seemed to me that it is best to say that the Panantukan that Guro Inosanto teaches is uniquely his own.   I also have the impression from what I've heard and read in various places that the main influences were likely John Lacoste and Lucky Lucaylucay.  Anyone else have a different impression? 

Keith:?

I will get to your questions later.

---Thanks!   Looking forward to your feedback!   Can you also post about  some of the differences between Guro Inosanto's Panantukan and what you saw on your trip to PI?

Keith
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Jeff Gentry
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Posts: 51


« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2006, 07:26:16 AM »

  I love the way that the FMA empty-hand material is grafted so effectively onto a western boxing base.   I recently purchased and have worked thru the Kali Tudo videos and was impressed with the content.  I'm looking to more installments in this series!   Having also seen and worked on the stick material, I know that the dog brother approach to some extent is to take the "traditional" drills and training methods and put them into the crucible of the fight and see what shakes out.   I've been impressed with the training drills that are presented on the stick videos that are obviously a "been there and done that" summary of what works.   So my question is this......

Keith


I have often wondered how the Spanish influence of Historic Euro. Martial art's influence the unarmed and stick of FMA, It was common practice to use single stick to practice for single sword and the boxing relationship is a in my mind a definate possibility.

If i remember correctly China also colonized PI before the Spanish, so there is probably quit abit of crossover with thing's such as China's combat wrestling Chiau Chiou(SP?), I am not a real knowledgable person on FMA my limited knowledge is based on Euro. history, I do think it is interesting to see How much of what the DBMA does look's alot like Historic Euro. martial art's with the attacking block's, footwork and such.


Jeff
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Usque Ad Finem
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2006, 08:56:17 AM »

Woof Keith et al:

You wrote:

"Panantukan is my favorite aspect of the FMA's.  I love the way that the FMA empty-hand material is grafted so effectively onto a western boxing base."

Actually IMHO it goes the other way around-- boxing is an off-shoot of Panatukan.  (I suggest you go back and find the subtantial thread on this question-- I think you will find it well worth your time)  As a teacher my sense of things is that if someone installs boxing first there is a real risk that they will never truly operate in Panantukan mode.  My preference is to establish double stick first and then simply fight EH with those movements.  Equally valid are knife based Panantukan movements, the double stick movements are simply my personal preference alathough of course I do use some of the knife based movements.

"I recently purchased and have worked thru the Kali Tudo videos and was impressed with the content.  I'm looking to more installments in this series!"

Tail wags for the kind words-- and yes there are more installments in the pipeline  grin

"Having also seen and worked on the stick material, I know that the Dog Brother approach to some extent is to take the "traditional" drills and training methods and put them into the crucible of the fight and see what shakes out.   I've been impressed with the training drills that are presented on the stick videos that are obviously a "been there and done that" summary of what works.   So my question is this......How much of the Panantukan material has been found to hold up in a real fighting situation in the dog brother experience?   What has not been found to be reliably effective?"

Although some of my students have moments where they apply KT in the context of a DB fight, to be precise the basis for DB KT has been in my own EH sparring and in that of my students, especially Lonely Dog, DBMA Lakan Guro Jeff Brown (who has lots of other credentials as well) and C-DB Greg Brown (who currently is thinking about what name he wants).  My own experience has principally been at the R1 Gym and the code there quite properly excludes video cameras, so there is no footage of my research.  That said, IMHO Panatukan has considerable merit.

I suspect where the doubt originates for many people is that they have not hit people with sticks or knives with its movements, so when sparring EH they lack a certain understanding of application.  Thus efforts to apply it become "graftings" onto different idiomatic movements i.e. western boxing.


"On the Kali Tudo DVDs I didn't see limb destructions discussed.   Seems to me that this would be one aspect that would show up pretty well and really help the cage fighter.   After all, its very acceptable to pound a guy's quad with round kicks to reduce his mobility and kicking ability....why not pound a guy's biceps with elbow strikes to reduce his ability to punch?"

As you correctly note, many points are not addressed in our KT DVD.   I chose to emphasize footwork first-- which for most people requires quite a bit of focus in its own right.    Also, I wanted to communicate effectively with the MMA audience as well, and felt that putting in things such as destructions on top of the footwork would dilute the focus.  Limb destructions DO appear in DBMA's KT, but perhaps in a different way than you may be expecting wink

"Anyway....I realize that I have managed to write a rather rambling post."   

Not at all!

"The main thing I am interested is seeing discussed is the relationship between "traditional" Panantukan and the Kali Tudo approach to empty-hand fighting.   Thanks!"

Although there are/were good grappling methods in some of the FMA, my sense of things is that the modern MMA fighter takes grappling to a different level and that this requires adaptation on the part of Panantukan.  Modern MMA is full of people who drift shot under high line responses to strikes for single leg takedowns, double leg takedowns, fireman's carry throws, etc.  Against someone skillfully versed in such skills, to go for a noogie (venerable ancient term of my youth long ago in New York City) of the bicep may have a risky cost/benefit ratio.

Does this help?

TAC,
Guro Crafty

Keith
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2006, 09:06:39 AM »

Keith:

I found the relevant thread on FMA & Boxing on page 10 at http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=206.0


Jeff:

You may find the following thread of interest:  http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=384.0

TAC!
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Jeff Gentry
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2006, 11:35:14 AM »

Guru Crafty

Thank's very interesting discussion's and some good link's, I alway's fin dthe discussion of history of and in a martial art fascinating.

I wonder how much of the FMA method/thinking was actualy taken back to spain and influenced there fighting method.


Jeff
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armydoc
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2006, 01:01:55 AM »

Greetings all!

Actually IMHO it goes the other way around-- boxing is an off-shoot of Panatukan.? (I suggest you go back and find the subtantial thread on this question-- I think you will find it well worth your time)?

---Thanks for the link provided below.? ?When I first started frequenting the forum, I did searches on several topics and discovered the thread you note.? Lots of good info in that thread.? smiley? I also was around when the article by Ms. Howe first appeared many years ago and hung onto it for a long time.? ?It was definately very interesting and stimulated lots of thought and future research.? ?Not long ago I actually did a fair amount of research into the old style of western? boxing by searching out various old boxing manuals at the Library of Congress in D.C.? ?Not to belabor a point or bring up old topics, but I am fairly comfortable with the idea that the shift from the old "John L. Sullivan" structure to the modern boxing structure was a natural result of evolution of fighting styles, changes in rule systems, and the use of gloves.? ?I also think that filipino fighting methods may of had an influence on that evolution, but how much of one I am not sure.? ?I haven't had the exposure to the native arts that you have had.? But I don't think that the filipino methods can be given total credit for the change.? ?I think there were many factors involved.? But that's neither here nor there.? smiley

 As a teacher my sense of things is that if someone installs boxing first there is a real risk that they will never truly operate in Panantukan mode.? My preference is to establish double stick first and then simply fight EH with those movements.? Equally valid are knife based Panantukan movements, the double stick movements are simply my personal preference alathough of course I do use some of the knife based movements.

---Good points.?


Although some of my students have moments where they apply KT in the context of a DB fight, to be precise the basis for DB KT has been in my own EH sparring and in that of my students, especially Lonely Dog, DBMA Lakan Guro Jeff Brown (who has lots of other credentials as well) and C-DB Greg Brown (who currently is thinking about what name he wants).? My own experience has principally been at the R1 Gym and the code there quite properly excludes video cameras, so there is no footage of my research.? That said, IMHO Panatukan has considerable merit.

---It occurred to me that a good person to comment on this topic would be Erik Paulson.? He would seem to have a good background in Panantukan, and he is a notable shoot fighting teacher and competitor as well.? ?It would be interesting to hear if he has worked on blending the two at all.? Does anyone know him well enough to get feedback??

I suspect where the doubt originates for many people is that they have not hit people with sticks or knives with its movements, so when sparring EH they lack a certain understanding of application.? Thus efforts to apply it become "graftings" onto different idiomatic movements i.e. western boxing.

---That may be the case.? ?But I'd also like to point out that my limited exposure to Panantukan has given me the impression that an instructor typically starts out teaching the basic boxing biomechanics and going through the standard boxing punching methods first.? ?That seems to be how Rick Faye approaches it.? But very likely the assumption is that the student has already worked on the stick methods and has some background.? ?I've also formed the impression that there are two ways to go.? ?You can use the typical Panantukan entries and finish with a punching combo, or you can use the typical Panantukan entries and finish with a joint lock, takedown, grapple, etc.? ?The first looks much like western boxing, while the second looks much like silat, while the transition to Dumog looks much like MMA.? ?But it seems to me, that successful use of Panantukan in the ring would take the first approach....where setting up a good punching combo is the emphasis, and a solid knowledge of modern western boxing wouldn't be bad thing!? smiley


As you correctly note, many points are not addressed in our KT DVD.? ?I chose to emphasize footwork first-- which for most people requires quite a bit of focus in its own right.? ? Also, I wanted to communicate effectively with the MMA audience as well, and felt that putting in things such as destructions on top of the footwork would dilute the focus.?

---No doubt.? A good strategy for an introduction to the topic.? ?Can you give us an idea of what you have in mind for future installments in the Kali Tudo series?

 Limb destructions DO appear in DBMA's KT, but perhaps in a different way than you may be expecting wink

---Ah!? ?The teaser!? smiley? ?How are they different??


Although there are/were good grappling methods in some of the FMA, my sense of things is that the modern MMA fighter takes grappling to a different level and that this requires adaptation on the part of Panantukan.? Modern MMA is full of people who drift shot under high line responses to strikes for single leg takedowns, double leg takedowns, fireman's carry throws, etc.? Against someone skillfully versed in such skills, to go for a noogie (venerable ancient term of my youth long ago in New York City) of the bicep may have a risky cost/benefit ratio.

---Excellent point!? And I thought of that as well.? What I had in mind for limb destructions were things like catching the biceps with a good elbow as you come out of a clinch, waiting until the opponent is fatigued and is throwing some sloppy punches to launch gunting destructions to his punches, using the split entry to close to the clinch, etc.? ?As far as some of the other aspects....using some of the foot trapping and sweeping methods from the clinch when the opponent is off-balanced, using some of the Dumog arm control manipulations out of the clinch to put the opponent down or set him up for headbutts, elbow strikes, etc.? ?What I don't see working in the ring is the "traditional" Panantukan approach of using multiple beats as an entry (split entry off of his jab to an inward gunting, trap & backhand, to elbow strike at biceps), which transitions to several body manipulations prior to the final takedown.? But, like the varous Hubud drills, (and as you discuss on your DVDs in relation to the stick methods)? I think this falls into the category of things that are part of the "art" and that when trained gives you the ability to know when they fit into a real situation....teaching more "flow" than actual application.?

---Like you, Crafty Dog, I am getting a little on the more "mature" side to consider stepping into the ring myself. :-0? But I have a nephew back home that is training in a small MMA gym and competing on the local circuit.? ?His gym emphasizes BJJ more than anything and when I saw him last he was weak on the standing elements.? ?When I get home from Iraq I'm hoping to start teaching him what I know of Panantukan and your Kali Tudo to see what we can make work in the ring.? ?It will be a fun experiment.? smiley? ?

Keith



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armydoc
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2006, 12:43:45 AM »

Hey Guro Crafty!

Any chance we can talk you into commenting on two things?

1.  Your time with Manong Kalimba and how what you saw differed from Guro Inosanto's Panantukan.

2.   What kind of things we can expect to see in future installments of the "Kali Tudo" series.

Thanks!!

Keith
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