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Author Topic: NEGATIVE CLUBBELLS EXPERIENCE!!!  (Read 7839 times)
Bandolero
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« on: December 20, 2006, 07:35:30 PM »

NEGATIVE CLUBBELLS EXPERIENCE!!!

As many of you know, I have been working out with Clubbells (purchased from RMAX International and manufactured by Torque Athletic) for over a year now. While I have been a great fan of Clubbells as a conditioning tool, I made an observation today on four of my Clubbells that causes me great concern as to their very safety. I know this will offend some, because the Clubbell is their sacred cow, but the truth is simply the truth. I have no malicious intent in communicating this information. I am simply communicating a truth that I have come to discover (at significant personal financial expense I might add), a truth I wish to see others avoid altogether.

I will explain in more detail below the nature of the safety concern, but in summary it is clearly evident to me that Clubbells, as they are presently engineered and manufactured, pose a serious possibility of snapping off at the junction of the grip and the body of the Clubbell, and either dropping on the user‘s head or becoming a flying missile that if they ever hit a bystander would very possibly cause death or serious injury. To the user because of the amount of weight that could drop on said user’s head, or death or serious injury to a bystander because of the amount of weight that could be sent flying in a missile manner. Do not underestimate the possibility of this happening.

While working out today with Clubbells I noticed that the “knob” of one of the 20 lb. Clubbells (it is the ball grip end of the Clubbell that screws into the neck of the Clubbell) was severely canted to one side. The Clubbell is designed such that the knob of the Clubbell screws into the neck of the Clubbell. As I understand it the screw itself is apparently called a zert. I took the 20 lb. Clubbell that had the severely canted knob, and I unscrewed it. It was then that I noticed that the zert itself was severely bent. The bend in the zert is what caused the knob to appear so severely canted. One does not have to be a rocket science to conceptualize that the ¼” zert is not capable of handling the tremendous physical forces that are brought to bear upon the knob/neck junction of the Clubbell.
In fact, during the very design of the Clubbell (when they initially were looking at a one-piece unit), there was a problem with the physical stresses placed at this very junction. Below is an excerpt from an article written by Scott Sonnon and published by Bodybuilding.com (bolding added):

“6. Cost

Okay, I admit it. I tried initially to keep cost down and create just cast-iron and even lathe club replicas of the old time bowling pin design. After several broke because of falling over on the knob, I consulted with an engineer who apprise me of the failings of single piece units. In single piece units, the structurally weakest point is where the handle meets the knob. After investing too much money in replacing these designs and trying to increase material density, we realized we needed to have the knob as a screw type attachment to the neck.”

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sonnon2.htm

As you can see, even during their own testing the designer and manufacturer had a serious problem with that very specific area of the Clubbell being able to handle the physical stress. And while the zert design may have appeared to have addressed the product safety issue (and let there be no doubt in your mind whatsoever that a 20 lb. Clubbell landing on your head or flying through the air is not a potentially very serious safety issue), the fact of the matter as evidenced by my Clubbells is that it did not satisfactorily address the issue. The physical stresses still obviously exist, and as you can see from the photos, still impact that very exact same spot on the Clubbell. As with the recent Zylon body armor matter that affected Second Chance, sometimes things will pass an initial safety and functionality test, only for it to be later discovered that the safety and functionality did not pan out in the long run under real world use. It is simply the case that, despite the best intentions, these things happen in life.
It is my opinion, based upon my personal observation, that after a period of time of doing the dynamic, ballistic exercises associated with Clubbell training (exercises actually promulgated by RMAX in their Clubbells DVD and their Clubbells book), there is a very real risk of the Clubbell snapping off at the zert, at which time depending upon its physical location in relation to the user’s body or that of a bystander, the Clubbell could become a serious health hazard. In fact at several points in both the book and the DVD, the point is made about how losing control of the Clubbell could be very dangerous.

Upon reflection and analysis I have come to the personal conclusion that it is certain exercises which generate the dynamics which result in the bending of the zert. Exercising with Clubbells is very challenging to the grip. When you mix this already existing grip challenge reality with certain dynamic exercises which cause the hand grip to slide towards the knob, what you get is a combination of physical stressors that the Clubbell is not designed to handle. There are certain highly dynamic/ballistic exercises promulgated by RMAX International (e.g swipes, mills, circles, pendulums, pre-swing cleans, pre-swing snatches, head casts) that result in the user’s hand grip sliding down towards the knob/neck juncture. This is unavoidable (if a user is to do more than a couple of repetitions of these exercises) and the knob would serve no legitimate function whatsoever if it were not intended to stop the hand from sliding any further to where the user would lose complete grip on the Clubbell and the Clubbell would go flying out of the user’s hand. What then happens during these moments of hand slide is that the meaty portion of the palm of the hand is in contact with the knob (usually in mid-swing and before a user can safely adjust). Depending upon the movement of the direction of the Clubbell at that moment of palm of hand/knob contact, the palm of the hand prevents any further physical movement of the Clubbell knob in that particular direction, yet the rest of the Clubbell is still moving. This causes intense stress at that very same spot that caused the single-unit Clubbell prototypes to snap. Only in the case of the two-piece Clubbell unit as it presently exists, it causes the zert to bend. A bent zert is only an accident waiting to happen once the stresses of the moment exceed the bent zert’s ability to handle the load. Once the zert snaps, depending upon the existing scenario, a catastrophe could happen.

After observing this canted knob on the one 20 lb. Clubbell, I then examined the rest of my Clubbells. I discovered that the knob was canted to lesser degrees (and ultimately the zert bent) on several other Clubbells. Specifically on my 15-pounder , my other 20-pounder, and on my 35-pounder. I also have a 25-pounder and a 45-pounder, however, they are newer and have been used much less often, particularly on the more dynamic exercises. I own a 5-pounder and a 10-pounder but I don’t use them much at all because the weight is insufficient for me to get anything out of except wrist casts and those exercises at those weights do not provide sufficient stress to the knob/neck juncture in my humble opinion. The fact that this same bending of the zert in four separate Clubbells has occurred is clear evidence of a design structure problem.

The only exercises I have ever done are those in the RMAX Clubbells DVD and book. I use the Clubbells about 3 times a week in total. Almost always one day each week is a total Clubbell based workout, and usually on several other days I use them as a supplement to the workout of the day (e.g. weight vest, kettle bell, dumbbell, barbell). In other words, I have never used them outside of the parameters of normal use that would be more than reasonable for such a product.
Clubbells are extremely expensive in comparison to traditional hand weights such as dumbbells. Because of the cost and potential danger combination, I highly recommend that people stay away from Clubbells. They are great pieces of weight equipment, and they have great potential, but in the here and the now they are not up to handling the stresses of the job for which they have been manufactured. Sometimes in life you live and you learn. That is my personal experience here. Just say no, unless you have lots of money to piss away!!!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 09:44:23 AM by Cold War Scout » Logged

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Jeff Gentry
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2006, 08:32:51 PM »

Scout


Quote
The Clubbell is designed such that the knob of the Clubbell screws into the neck of the Clubbell. As I understand it the screw itself is apparently called a zert. I took the 20 lb. Clubbell that had the severely canted knob, and I unscrewed it. It was then that I noticed that the zert itself was severely bent. The bend in the zert is what caused the knob to appear so severely canted. One does not have to be a rocket science to conceptualize that the ¼” zert is not capable of handling the tremendous physical forces that are brought to bear upon the knob/neck junction of the Clubbell.

Actualy this does not surprise.

I am a Historic European Martial artist and we noticed this very early on with alot of the lower end sword's that have screw on pommel's, your knob and zert, just swinging a two pound sword with any force/speed tended to bend the tang (zert) and they were alway's coming loose because of the twisting motion on the handle, much like you do with a clubbell, the higher end sword's that are being produced now from the old design's have what is called a peened on pommel were the pommel is wedge down onto a wedge shaped tang and then the piece sticking out is heated and pounded down to fasten the pommel to the tang.


I would be willing to bet they could also do something of this nature, gradualy tapering tang and peened over pommel.


Jeff
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Usque Ad Finem
armydoc
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2006, 12:53:26 AM »

With all due respect, you sound like someone "with an axe to grind", and I am suspect of an ulterior motive.  Have you discussed this with RMAX or Torque Athletics?   Have you brought this up in the RMAX forum?   In the past others have had similar issues and it was addressed promptly.   The president of Torque Athletics even personally replied to some posts.  They had a run of product with manufacturing defects at one point.  As far as I could tell, things were worked out to everyone's satisfaction.  Most pieces of equipment will have stress points that are more vulnerable to failure than other points.   The same is true of traditional Olympic weights, and people still use those regularly. 

Keith
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Bandolero
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2006, 07:30:08 AM »

With all due respect, you sound like someone "with an axe to grind", and I am suspect of an ulterior motive.  Have you discussed this with RMAX or Torque Athletics?   Have you brought this up in the RMAX forum?   In the past others have had similar issues and it was addressed promptly.   The president of Torque Athletics even personally replied to some posts.  They had a run of product with manufacturing defects at one point.  As far as I could tell, things were worked out to everyone's satisfaction.  Most pieces of equipment will have stress points that are more vulnerable to failure than other points.   The same is true of traditional Olympic weights, and people still use those regularly. 

Keith

There was a reason I said the following in my first paragraph: "I know this will offend some, because the Clubbell is their sacred cow..."

I have provided you folks with true information about my first-hand experience with Clubbells.  As with all things in life, each person is free to believe or disbelieve as they choose.  That will, of course, not alter reality

I have no obligation to become a member of the RMAX forum.  I am not an RMAX groupie, nor do I have any desire to be one.  That is like saying that if I bought a Glock that did not work, my recourse should be to join the Glock Talk forum and commiserate there with others whose Glocks did not work.  That is certainly not a course of action I am interested in following.  I have mentally written off the money I lost on Clubbells.  My primary goal at this point is to simply warn others of my real world negative experience so they know in advance the risks that may come with the purchase of Clubbells.  They are very expensive pieces of equipment.  [EDITED OUT]

It's a shame actually because otherwise they are great pieces of weight equipment.  But no matter how much you liked a particular car, if you knew it to be a lemon you would not buy it, right?  Well at least 999 out of 1000 people probably wouldn't.

I am curious.  Why is it that I am supposed to keep this product defect information some sort of confidential matter between me and RMAX/Torque Athletics?  With all due respect it sounds like you have an interest in promoting the use of Clubbells.  Perhaps in your world I am supposed to be groveling to RMAX/Torque Athletics for my money back, but in my world I don't roll like that.  It's a good thing we are not talking about a gun that jams because it sounds to me like you would sweep that under the rug to get your money back.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 09:02:38 AM by Cold War Scout » Logged

"This is a war, and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at any time, in any place." ~ Morpheus
Bandolero
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Posts: 108


« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2006, 08:45:42 AM »

Scout


Quote
The Clubbell is designed such that the knob of the Clubbell screws into the neck of the Clubbell. As I understand it the screw itself is apparently called a zert. I took the 20 lb. Clubbell that had the severely canted knob, and I unscrewed it. It was then that I noticed that the zert itself was severely bent. The bend in the zert is what caused the knob to appear so severely canted. One does not have to be a rocket science to conceptualize that the ¼” zert is not capable of handling the tremendous physical forces that are brought to bear upon the knob/neck junction of the Clubbell.

Actualy this does not surprise.

I am a Historic European Martial artist and we noticed this very early on with alot of the lower end sword's that have screw on pommel's, your knob and zert, just swinging a two pound sword with any force/speed tended to bend the tang (zert) and they were alway's coming loose because of the twisting motion on the handle, much like you do with a clubbell, the higher end sword's that are being produced now from the old design's have what is called a peened on pommel were the pommel is wedge down onto a wedge shaped tang and then the piece sticking out is heated and pounded down to fasten the pommel to the tang.


I would be willing to bet they could also do something of this nature, gradualy tapering tang and peened over pommel.


Jeff

I do wonder whether buying a simple 30" by 1" black metal pipe from Home Depot (the kind I built homemade parallettes with), filling it with sand or gravel, and quality sealing the ends with metal end caps would work as a viable substitute. The weights probably would not be the same as with some of the Clubbells that have been manufactured, but I would imagine the weights could be greater than those of the Indian Clubs that lifelineusa.com sells:



http://www.lifelineusa.com/pro.....ductid=101

Below are some of the prices of Clubbells so you can get a real idea how much money you could find yourself out of:

15 lb. Clubbell - $109.95 + $21 shipping

20 lb. Clubbell - $119.95 + $24 shipping

35 lb. Clubbell - $149.95 + $40 shipping

While ArmyDoc may not consider that kind of money any big deal, I leave it up to you to come to your own conclusion.  I came close to getting a 15 and a 20 for my girlfriend's son for X-mas.  Thank God I got kettlebells instead!

« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 09:20:52 AM by Cold War Scout » Logged

"This is a war, and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at any time, in any place." ~ Morpheus
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2006, 09:02:05 AM »

Woof CWS:

Outstanding to see you posting here!

Question:  I've been hearing about the Indian Clubs from you and others and I am intrigued-- and I wonder if this training would simply replicate things that I am already doing.  Is there an instructional DVD which you (or anyone else) would recommend?

TIA,
CD
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Bandolero
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2006, 09:45:26 AM »

Woof CWS:

Outstanding to see you posting here!

Question:  I've been hearing about the Indian Clubs from you and others and I am intrigued-- and I wonder if this training would simply replicate things that I am already doing.  Is there an instructional DVD which you (or anyone else) would recommend?

TIA,
CD

Because I have touted Clubbells in the past to guys like you, Gabe, Tom Sotis and Ross Enamait, I had a personal obligation to inform of the current situation as regards them.  Combat conditioning is too important a topic to take lightly, and with the cost of Clubbells being what they are every guy thinking about such a piece of equipment, and such a regimen, deserves an honest assessment of them.  My assessment is eyes on and hands on.  Including the fact that the Clubbell apparently just does not handle the stresses imposed on them.  I have been, and still am a huge fan of the Clubbell concept, and of Scott Sonnon.  However, reality is reality, and if the Clubbell itself has its shortcomings then let the chips fall where they may.  If a gun constantly jams, that does not make the concept of a gun invalid.   Imagine if I had said nothing and my buddy Dino went ahead and bought the whole Pro-Gym package for $1100 for The Warriors Forge!!  I would stay the heck away from buying any Clubbells for the foreseeable future.

There is a book and a DVD put out by RMAX on Circular Strength Training.  I consider both to be THE sources of the best information I have seen yet, although as with everything from RMAX (and Dragon Door for that matter), they are quite expensive.  Many people complain about this but unless you can get one on the cheap from e-Bay it is hard to get an original non-bootleg copy any other way than through RMAX.

DVD - http://www.rmaxinternational.com/mambo/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=29&category_id=34fe6cfb0edc0e295fb82ed16fe961a8&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=

Book - http://www.rmaxinternational.com/mambo/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=162&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=

I suspect you are already, and always have essentially been doing, some measure of "circular strength" type training by virtue of your stick fighting training.  For example what Sonnon calls the frontwards and backwards circles is essentially the same thing as redondos (I suspect redondos have been around close to forever).  Overhead circles with a pipe closely resembles Sonnon's shield cast.  It seems to me that umbrella blocks closely resemble the initial movement of Sonnon's reverse parry cast.  Top Dog's chopping activates what seems to me like the same basic wrist and forearm muscles and structural components that Sonnon's wrist cast engages even though the movements are different in appearance.  However there is a regimen of exercises promulgated by Sonnon that you probably are not doing.  Some of these exercises can really smoke one's grip and arm strength in a manner hard to describe unless you actually do it.  I have never had a Clubbell go flying or dropped one, but I can see where if I had tried one more rep or two, that could have happened.

Indian clubs are nothing new and they sure seem like the genesis of the modern-day Clubbell to me.  "Circular strength" type training is nothing new.  The below link is to a book that appears to have been published in 1887...over 119 years ago.  This book contains what sure looks like circular strength type exercises to me. 

http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_dick_0101.htm

As we have personally talked about in the past, there is very little new under the sun that human beings bodies have not already discovered/actually done.  We have watched cowboys do point shooting for generations now and there are those out there in the here and now who would have you believe that they invented it.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 10:17:33 AM by Cold War Scout » Logged

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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2006, 07:55:57 PM »

CWS:

Thank you.

When you are out here for the DLO: Gun, Knife, Empty Hand seminar with Gabe and me, remind me to show you the Torqueblades (see the Stickconditioning thread for comments)-- I'd be curious to get your take on them and how they overlap with the Indian Clubs.

TAC,
CD
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Bandolero
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Posts: 108


« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2006, 08:18:24 PM »

CWS:

Thank you.

When you are out here for the DLO: Gun, Knife, Empty Hand seminar with Gabe and me, remind me to show you the Torqueblades (see the Stickconditioning thread for comments)-- I'd be curious to get your take on them and how they overlap with the Indian Clubs.

TAC,
CD

Seems like a variation of the overall Indian clubs theme to me.  What kind of weight do these Torque Blades pack?
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TomFurman
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2006, 09:34:49 PM »

I have and use Clubbells with my clients, friends, and myself. I'll have to look for this flaw. I have had some knobs get loose and I had to tighten them, but that is it.

That aside,...TopDog used 9lb pipes for Powershots, Fluid Attack, etc. Hardwood Bokken should work as well.
I divide my work up between Kettlebells, Pipes, Clubs, and StretchBands. I can see where doing volume on a loose or bent knob would be disasterous. Look at the Nintendo Wii controllers flying across the room.

--Tom Furman
www.physicalstrategies.blogspot.com
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armydoc
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2006, 12:35:09 AM »

Hey CSW!

There was a reason I said the following in my first paragraph: "I know this will offend some, because the Clubbell is their sacred cow..."

---I am not offended, nor is the clubbell my "sacred cow."   Your original post just did not seem very balanced or fair-minded.

I have provided you folks with true information about my first-hand experience with Clubbells.  As with all things in life, each person is free to believe or disbelieve as they choose.  That will, of course, not alter reality

---I have no problem with that.  But there is a difference between saying..."this is the negative experience I had, so others can be cautious", and going on what seems like a personal crusade to discredit someone's whole product line. 

I have no obligation to become a member of the RMAX forum.  I am not an RMAX groupie, nor do I have any desire to be one.  That is like saying that if I bought a Glock that did not work, my recourse should be to join the Glock Talk forum and commiserate there with others whose Glocks did not work.  That is certainly not a course of action I am interested in following. 

---I didn't mean to imply you had to be an "RMAX groupie."   But if you had a problem with your Glock, wouldn't you take that problem to the gun shop that sold it to you (in this case RMAX that sold you the clubbell)?.....wouldn't you take it to the company that manufactured the Glock (in this case Torque Athletics that manufactured the clubbell)Huh?   That's all I was asking or suggesting!   If you had a problem with your Glock would you run out and tell everyone you could find that they should NEVER EVER buy a Glock?  Despite the fact that many people have used and are using Glocks (or clubbells) without any problems!?  Its one thing to say "be aware of this potential problem" and quite another to say "NEVER EVER buy this product!" 

  My secondary, certainly uphill battle goal, is to seek their recall by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.  Stranger things have been successful and I certainly have the time to spend on trying to make it happen.  Maybe with the Dems in power next month I will be able to find an interested government employee.

---Seems like I said something before about "an axe to grind."   Sounding more and more like that is true.

It's a shame actually because otherwise they are great pieces of weight equipment.  But no matter how much you liked a particular car, if you knew it to be a lemon you would not buy it, right?  Well at least 999 out of 1000 people probably wouldn't.

---I pointed out the fact that Torque Athletics evidently had a run of some manufacturing defects, and that I had thought they had corrected it.  You aren't interested in that?  You aren't interested in the possibility of having your "lemon"  replaced with a newer version?   Did you even TRY to work out your problem with RMAX or Torque Athletics? 

I am curious.  Why is it that I am supposed to keep this product defect information some sort of confidential matter between me and RMAX/Torque Athletics?  With all due respect it sounds like you have an interest in promoting the use of Clubbells.

---No one said you had to keep anything confidential!   I simply asked if you had made any attempt to work out your problem with the people involved before you went on your crusade against clubbells!   I think that was a reasonable question!  I'm not promoting anything.  But I do think that clubbells are a good training aide, especially for people into swinging sticks!  smiley

  Perhaps in your world I am supposed to be groveling to RMAX/Torque Athletics for my money back, but in my world I don't roll like that.  It's a good thing we are not talking about a gun that jams because it sounds to me like you would sweep that under the rug to get your money back.

---In my world I don't go out bad-mouthing someone's company and their product based on a single incident and without doing a little research and investigation into whether or not they just might have already taken action to CORRECT the problem already!  If your gun is jamming, is it because of an essential design flaw, or because that run of magazines had a manufacturing defect that is easily corrected.   Wouldn't you want to know?Huh

Keith
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Bandolero
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2006, 10:34:09 AM »

ArmyDoc:

Call me a cynic but I absolutely do not believe that if you had a Ford Pinto 2-3 decades ago that had a possibility of the gas tank exploding from a routine rear end collision, or if you had 4 Goodyear tires on a Ford Explorer during that issue some years back, that you would be all so okay about it.

As of this moment you are the only person on multiple forums who seems to think that the equipment manufacturer is some sort of victim.  Every other person seems to have appreciated the "heads up."  With comments such as:

Quote
CWS

Thanks for the heads up.

I'm very tired of makers of expensive gear with excuses for their failings.

For the price seems they could make a weighted club of strong construction.

Regarding the RMAX forum, please help me to get this straight.  You are saying there has been some sort of ongoing discussion about this basic problem on the RMAX forum, yet this is the response of the RMAX President/CEO to me:

Quote
In 4 years this is the first time we hear such statement.

So which is it?

It's all very simple to me AD.  The Clubbell is a very expensive product that does not have the structural solidity to handle the very exercises they promulgate (I speculate it is the highly ballistic ones).  For some reason you seem to be taking my ire with the product personally, something I used to frequently see shareholders get similarly defensive about. 

Hey, I’ll be the first to admit if I had loads of money, I would buy a new series of Clubbells every year to replace the ones that go bad from the stress.  The concept of the Clubbell, and the circular strength training philosophy, are that great.  The RMAX/Torque Athletic people seem like genuinely okay guys to me, especially Mr. Sonnon.  It’s simply the actual structural issue of the Clubbell itself that is the issue.  You cannot spin that out of play with anybody who has their eye remotely on the ball.

Perhaps you might have reacted differently.  So be it.  I am quite comfortable that my reaction is appropriate in light of how the cards played out.  I sincerely hope that Torque and RMAX fix this problem, and if me being out my Clubbells investment $ results in this product being improved, then so be it.  If my actions cause them to do exactly that, then it will have all been worthwhile to me.
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armydoc
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2006, 12:25:19 AM »

Hey CSW!

Call me a cynic but I absolutely do not believe that if you had a Ford Pinto 2-3 decades ago that had a possibility of the gas tank exploding from a routine rear end collision, or if you had 4 Goodyear tires on a Ford Explorer during that issue some years back, that you would be all so okay about it.

---Not if I knew it was a widespread problem.  See....I would have done a little research into it before going off.  That has been my continuing point, which you seem to keep missing.  sad

As of this moment you are the only person on multiple forums who seems to think that the equipment manufacturer is some sort of victim.  Every other person seems to have appreciated the "heads up." 

---Multiple forums?   Seems I said something about a "crusade" and "an axe to grind"Huh  I never said the manufacturer was some sort of victim.  I only asked if you had actually contacted the manufacturer to see what was up.   All that multiple posting on multiple forums and you never bothered to contact Torque Athletics about the problem?


Regarding the RMAX forum, please help me to get this straight.  You are saying there has been some sort of ongoing discussion about this basic problem on the RMAX forum, yet this is the response of the RMAX President/CEO to me:

Quote
In 4 years this is the first time we hear such statement.

---So you HAVE contacted RMAX?   Why have you been implying that you didn't?  Why didn't you point that out earlier?

So which is it?

---I don't know.  Why not do your own research?   Go to the RMAX forum and do a search for the topic.   Or post and see what others have to say.

  For some reason you seem to be taking my ire with the product personally, something I used to frequently see shareholders get similarly defensive about. 

---I'm not taking your "ire" personally.  I was just trying to point out some reasonable questions. 

 It’s simply the actual structural issue of the Clubbell itself that is the issue.  You cannot spin that out of play with anybody who has their eye remotely on the ball.

---I'm not trying to spin anything.   I simply asked if you had contacted the manufacture about the possibility that the problem had already been fixed!!!   Isn't that reasonable?   Maybe it hasn't been fixed!  I don't know.  I was making what seemed to me to be a reasonable suggestion.  You seem to be the one to me that is taking things pretty personally. 

I am quite comfortable that my reaction is appropriate in light of how the cards played out. 

---Let me  get this straight.  Maybe I am wrong.  But going only by what you have posted in the past this is the impression I have.   You had a problem with your clubbells that was very concerning to you.   So rather than contact RMAX (the distributor and designer) or Torque Athletics (the manufacturer) about the problem to see if it was an isolated incident, a manufacturing defect, or a design problem that may or may not have already been corrected....instead you chose to simply post in multiple forums to tell everyone you could to never buy this product.  Again, quite possibly I am wrong...but that is the impression you have given in this thread.   That seems neither reasonable, nor a reaction that I myself would be comfortable with. 

 I sincerely hope that Torque and RMAX fix this problem, and if me being out my Clubbells investment $ results in this product being improved, then so be it.  If my actions cause them to do exactly that, then it will have all been worthwhile to me.

---How can your actions of posting in multiple forums (without actually contacting RMAX or Torque Athletics...or maybe you have and for some reason haven't told us this?) telling people not to buy their product result in their product being improved?  I'm sorry CSW.  I never intended for this discussion to go on in this vein.  But you seem to continue to ignore my simple points.  I don't feel you are being reasonable about this, so I will respectfully decline any further discussion on the topic.

Keith
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Bandolero
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2006, 08:05:59 AM »

Quote
---So you HAVE contacted RMAX?   Why have you been implying that you didn't?  Why didn't you point that out earlier?

In a nutshell, you are the one who said I never contacted RMAX.  I have even sent them photos of their problem, although I was under no obligation to do so.  I had no need to clarify this point with you because it is irrelevant to the issue of the Clubbell apparently lacking sufficient structural integrity (probably at the heavier weights).

With all due respect sir, it does not matter to me if you ever respond to this thread again.  You are the one who annointed yourself to be the solo knight in shining armor to come to the rescue of RMAX and Torque Athletic.  You seem to miss the point that your approval is not being requested.  You are free to go about doing things in whatever manner you choose.  As am I.  We have different views of the world. 

Some folks will appreciate (well actually already have) knowing that the very expensive Clubbell they may be considering has a structural design issue before they go spending well over $100 on one.  To those to whom the Clubbell is an inviolable sacred cow, I knew in advance you would be upset that your sacred cow is being "dissed", and theoretically were the Clubbell to be shown live on national television to completely melt into a black puddle after exposure to 3 hours of sunlight you would still be justifying its perfection and be telling us we need to buy a darkened refrigerator to workout in.

I am not obligated to join the RMAX forum and do "research" on this matter.  That is a bizarre premise.  There is nothing more I need to know because I am not speculating about product deficiency.  All I need to know is actually sitting on my basement floor right now.  It's incredibly simple really.  An expensive product was manufactured and sold that does not have the structural snuff to completely handle the stresses of the work it was designed to perform. 

...instead you chose to simply post in multiple forums to tell everyone you could to never buy this product.

Yes.  Exactly.  As I look over my shoulder right now at the Clubbell sitting 10 feet away from me, IMHO you would either need to be wealthy or out of your mind to spend that kind of money on something that will have the grip bending at about a 45° angle after one year of use.

It is a good thing for the police world that you were not the one who first discovered that Zylon body armor does not stop bullets, because its clear to me you would have spent your efforts in confidential dialogue with Second Chance body armor, and the people out there wearing the vest would have never found out from you that the vest did not bullets.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 09:32:33 AM by Cold War Scout » Logged

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armydoc
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« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2006, 12:23:06 AM »

  Have you discussed this with RMAX or Torque Athletics?   Have you brought this up in the RMAX forum?   In the past others have had similar issues and it was addressed promptly.   The president of Torque Athletics even personally replied to some posts.  They had a run of product with manufacturing defects at one point.  As far as I could tell, things were worked out to everyone's satisfaction.  Keith

As my final word on this subject, let me point out that what you read above was part of my very first post on this topic.  You chose not to answer the simple and reasonable question I asked.   For some reason you decided that I was some kind of RMAX groupie and that clubbells were my "sacred cow" and chose to see me as the enemy.  This is not true.  I don't even use clubbells currently.   My apologies if anything I have posted has seemed like a personal attack.  That was not what was intended. 

Keith
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Bandolero
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« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2006, 08:10:23 AM »

  Have you discussed this with RMAX or Torque Athletics?   Have you brought this up in the RMAX forum?   In the past others have had similar issues and it was addressed promptly.   The president of Torque Athletics even personally replied to some posts.  They had a run of product with manufacturing defects at one point.  As far as I could tell, things were worked out to everyone's satisfaction.  Keith

As my final word on this subject, let me point out that what you read above was part of my very first post on this topic.  You chose not to answer the simple and reasonable question I asked.   For some reason you decided that I was some kind of RMAX groupie and that clubbells were my "sacred cow" and chose to see me as the enemy.  This is not true.  I don't even use clubbells currently.   My apologies if anything I have posted has seemed like a personal attack.  That was not what was intended. 

Keith

I am equally done with this thread (and would have been days ago), unless somebody asks a question or I have more related, updated info to report.  I have communicated the info I intended to communicate.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 10:36:53 AM by Cold War Scout » Logged

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Bandolero
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2006, 09:40:13 AM »

Within the past 48 hours Scott Sonnon himself has gotten involved in this matter.  He seems to be a very sincere, practical, level-headed, determined to have 100% customer satisfaction kind of guy.  He also is very good at relationship-oriented skills because he completely depissed me off, and frankly I did not think that would ever be possible in this matter.  I am happy about this turn of events because his stuff is very good, including the Clubbells concept, and I sure would have hated having a chip on my shoulder for RMAX for the next decade.



I will provide a more full report once the resolution is in place.
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arkangel
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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2006, 11:55:23 AM »

honest of you to post that last bit, please post the resolution reached. the product is priced way out of my league but i would like to hear what the proposed solution is after following this thread.
thx
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Bandolero
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2007, 11:19:31 AM »

I do not want to appear to be reviving a dead thread but I think it fair to mention that the other day I received replacement zerts for all the Clubbells that have any sort of compromise.  Scott Sonnon personally handled this matter, and did so with the most serious 100% customer satisfaction view I have ever seen anybody genuinely implement.  I only wish I had been fortunate enough to have been in contact with him from jump street.  I truly believe if I had insisted on my money back, he would have done so.  But my ire was never about money.  As I have always said, I am a fan of the Clubbell and of circular strength training.  My ire was about the product itself.

So I am back in full Clubbells action again.  Whether anybody ever buys a Clubbell or not, I think it is fair to say and to know that if you ever have a problem Scott Sonnon himself will make it right with whatever it takes.

NOTE:  All the new zerts are significantly longer in length.  Hopefully that will alleviate the stresses on zert issue.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 11:17:03 AM by Cold War Scout » Logged

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Bandolero
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2007, 09:43:06 AM »

Scott Sonnon personally sent a replacement 15 pound Clubbell.  He did not have to in my humble opinion but he did.  Like I said before, his focus on 100% customer satisfaction is unlike anybody I have ever personally done business with.
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