Dog Brothers Public Forum
Return To Homepage
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 20, 2014, 11:18:17 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the Dog Brothers Public Forum.
79161 Posts in 2226 Topics by 1037 Members
Latest Member: DCoutinho
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  Dog Brothers Public Forum
|-+  DBMA Martial Arts Forum
| |-+  Martial Arts Topics
| | |-+  Are there Knights?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Are there Knights?  (Read 4627 times)
Karsk
Power User
***
Posts: 100


« on: February 15, 2007, 05:11:51 PM »

Upon request of Crafty Dog, I am reposting my question to him as a new thread.  You may find the context of this question in the Euro Martial Arts topic.


I am a father of sons.  I have two good men for sons and I have raised up and taught a lot of young fellows (and women too but I see some things with us guys that needs attention these days).  I used martial arts training as a means to teach them some things about being men and about being good people.   To me, martial arts has been about learning to fight but also about learning when to fight and why.  Embedded in the history of martial arts in many places world wide there are traditions of  developing character through the martial practice.  One of the reasons that I became interested in European Martial Arts was because I wanted to search out traditions from my own culture about the development of character and nobility. I wanted to find something that resonated deeply in my own psyche in this.

Stories of nobility are always colored by the mores and political nature of the times that they exist in.  The actual behavior that people present as being noble may vary as a result.  And people are always growing and so do not always act according to their ideals. We struggle.   But I have been amazed at the nearly universal recognition of noble virtues through the martial traditions and among individuals that I have met.

The Dog Brothers is about as real as I think practice in the martial arts can get and that is admittedly based on an uninformed position of watching a few videos and reading things here on the forums.  So you have captured something essential in your practice that I think a lot of people are missing.  How do you approach the idea of character development?  Is there responsibility in teaching to build character purposefully?  Does it happen to each of us incidentally as we endeavor in martial practice?  How do we distinguish from merely being tough guys of varying degrees and flavors of morality and something more?  In short, are their Knights?


Karsk
Logged
Jeff Gentry
Frequent Poster
**
Posts: 51


« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2007, 05:10:59 PM »

Karsk

I would need to know what you mean by "knight", I am a WMA, HEMA(Historic Euro. Martial arts) practioner/researcher/scholar and in alot of Historic account's of "knight's" they were usualy not real nice guy's in the way we would think a "knight" should be.

Now if you mean "knight" in the context of the Arthurian/chivalric type of definition then we are talking something diffrent from the historic norm of the true "knight", this is something that came about later in history after the Feudal era in Europe had passed.

I think you need to define what we are talking.

Jeff
 
Logged

Usque Ad Finem
Jeff Gentry
Frequent Poster
**
Posts: 51


« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2007, 05:39:16 PM »

Karsk

This is what i think when i think of how a knight act's, this is an excerpt from Hans Talhoffer's 1459 edition of his fight manual, For those who do not know who Hans Talhoffer is he was a Swabian(Germany) Knight in the 15th century and wrote a few fighting manual's.

Not all of these are what would be considered as good reason's for fighting in the modern world.

" (8r)  Here finds one written of fighting – Thus what now be decreed as forbidden of all fighters.     So by and by, it has become the custom of emperors and kings, princes and lords, to whom one likens himself and emulates, that one is obliged to fight, especially regarding several causes and articles which are written down hereafter.

Yet firstly this – Nobody is happy when one of his comrades cuts up his honour with loud words. He who would have at dueling with such a comrade, indeed he is within his rights and may well-fight him if he would. Thus dueling is wantonness ~

Now those aforesaid causes and articles are seven, wherefor a man has duty to fight:

Thus the first is murder.

The second is treason.

The third is heresy.

The fourth is becoming an urger of disloyalty to one’s lord.

The fifth is betrayal in strife or otherwise.

The sixth is fal sehood.

The seventh is using either a maiden or lady.

That is why one man challenges another to duel.   Such a man shall come before court and shall lay down his case through his own advocacy.   Therefor he who accuses shall name the man by baptized name and surname.   At the appointed hour it is right that he who calls for the tribunal also complains to three tribunes after the accused comes – unless either one comes not and answers for himself.   Yet nobody of one’s ilk may do so, for truly one may answer better for himself."

Jeff
Logged

Usque Ad Finem
Dog Robertlk808
Power User
***
Posts: 531


« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2007, 06:08:56 PM »

I think and I could be way off base but to me I think the question is how do the Dog Brothers approach building character and the reason I think is because of this statement.
Quote
The Dog Brothers is about as real as I think practice in the martial arts can get and that is admittedly based on an uninformed position of watching a few videos and reading things here on the forums
.

And then the question is posed

Quote
How do you approach the idea of character development?

So maybe the question is How do we as Dog Brothers and DBMA \ Martial Art practioners incorporate building character into our personal developement. Perhaps the Dog Brothers are lucky in that they attract those who already have developed good character or perhaps those with questionable character think twice before coming to a gathering and acting up, I dont really know (yet). I can only think that Guro Crafty and others i.e. DogZilla provide great examples by the way they live, teach the art and share knowledge.



« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 07:06:39 PM by Robertlk808 » Logged

"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed
maija
Power User
***
Posts: 299


« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2007, 07:01:55 PM »

hi,
i short way of introduction, i am a guro of the late sonny umpad and have been following this forum since last summer when guro crafty came up to the bay area to interview the maestro. i have a background in western fencing, and the chinese "internal" arts, presently gao style bagua zhang under luo de xiu of taipei, and have been most fascinated by the threads, and the attitude of open inquiry i have found here.
my special interest is in bladed weapons, mostly in a 'duelling' context, though at present i am studying toyama ryu battodo, which also encompasses some battlefield techniques.
i was interested in the idea of " character development" through martial training.
 training bladed weapons with sonny left no room for errror, and no grey area about what skill you did or did not have, it was blindingly obvious. consequently bull@#$% didn't get past the door and only those with an open mind to learning survived.... and got more skill.
i was also reminded of a story told to me by a fellow guro about having a conversation with sonny about using sonny's material at some free sparring sessions at other gyms, and how great they worked. of course sonny was pleased, but the next time he came to workout with the same story, sonny asked him , and i'm paraphrasing here, "so how long are you going to stay there? winning? if you always win you will learn nothing. you need to train with people that are better, so you can have a question that you need to find the answer for."
as he said, "the one that hits you is the one you don't see", so best 'to see' alot in training.
he encouraged us all to investigate the risky options, not just stay in safe, familiar territory ,and perhaps this willingness to "lose" to improve, ultimately builds an open mind and a stronger character?
they say you are what you train, and sonny was truly one of the most deadly yet humble people i have ever met.
Logged

It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first.
Miyamoto Musashi.
Karsk
Power User
***
Posts: 100


« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2007, 07:19:19 PM »

Robert is more in line with what I am considering here.   

But I think that Jeff's contributions are worthy of comment.  I think that it is true that there are people that do not live the values that they themselves espouse.  Just like the accounts of historical knights that you bring up. There are and have been "orders"  where people have tried to codify character values and recognize the attempt at right effort.  Sometimes those groups had ulterior motives, sometimes they failed to uphold the values they espoused in huge ways, sometimes the "values" were in reality sadly lacking.  But throughout all this time, there are people that try to live according to a certain set of values that I have come to think of as martial values, or knightly values, or noble virtues.  These things aren't complex or fancy and there are evidences of these values in all of us.  Even the most base of us recognize these things as being good.  Things like honor, integrity, benevolence, courage, humility, and so on.  Exactly how those things are manifested really do seem to be a function of the age and the culture.  But doesn't it strike you as important that throughout  the ages some have tried to live in this way?  Even amidst imperfect systems, people and situations? I am not really interested in the historical bureaucracies here that may or may not have been espousing Knights. I am interested in the real energy behind the ideal.

It's a quality of our present culture to express cynicism over anyone or any group who might endeavor to live according to values.   I think this hurts us and I think it especially hurts young men.   

So when I see evidence that there may be people who in some way , means, shape or form who are trying to study and practice character in real ways I want to get to know them and acknowledge it.

Logged
Michael Brown
Newbie
*
Posts: 22


« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2007, 12:28:24 AM »

It's a quality of our present culture to express cynicism over anyone or any group who might endeavor to live according to values.   I think this hurts us and I think it especially hurts young men.   

So when I see evidence that there may be people who in some way , means, shape or form who are trying to study and practice character in real ways I want to get to know them and acknowledge it.

Let me preface this response with the disclaimer that while I am a serious student of combat, I am not a Dog Brother nor a DBMA member.

However I have had opportunity to train and converse with Guro Crafty a fair amount and can say confidently that one of the most significant things I've taken from him was the concept of "belonging to the same tribe".

How to train realistically must always be balanced with the need to keep our warriors able to stand up and fight for our way of life, but after several dinner conversations with Guro Crafty, I believe there is more to the tribal concept that simply keeping everyone ready to fight.

It is my opinion that the tribe also exists to maintain and enforce the cultural ethos.  Warriors maintain some semblence of power in American society because we hold ourselves accountable for our deeds and misdeeds and hold ourselves responsible to the non-warrior tribal members. 

A much smarter person than me once told me that power and repsonsibility must be commensurate, otherwise there must be injustice.  This is really at the heart of the tribal concept and hopefully is consistent with Guro Crafty's philosophy.

I believe that a hard contact training method is a natural assistance in this process because there will inevitably be someone bigger, faster, stronger or better than you to make you consider how you interact with others.

I hope this offers some food for thought.

Michael Brown 
Logged

If not me, then who? - motto of Russia's Alpha Counter-Terrorist Unit
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 29607


« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2007, 01:17:50 PM »

Woof All:

I am delighted to see both Maija and Michael Brown joining in.  A hearty woof of welcome to both of you!

I will need a more leisurely moment to put down some thoughts for this thread, but for the moment share an article written by Dog Hig, who is one of our DBMA instructors in the UK.   I gather that this piece will be published in the UK's "Martial Arts Illustrated" or "Combat", so please do not forward it from here.

TAC,
CD
=====================================================

The Spirituality of the Gathering


In the time I’ve been training in DBMA, the question I’ve been asked more than any other has to “Why do you want to fight at the Gathering?”

It’s a question that’s been asked of me by everyone, family, friends, students, people I meet at seminars, someone even asked me it just before the last Gathering in Bern. The reason for them asking the question changes from person to person, some are asking because they want to try it but want to make sure it’s a sane thing to do first. Others just don’t get it, they see the risk but not the reward.
This article is more for the latter.

The first time I saw the Dog Brothers on tape, I had conflicting emotions.
My first feeling was confusion, why would they do this???
I’d been told by my first instructors that the weapons side of the art was so effective, you could never test it. They said to do so would leave both parties badly injured and there was too much risk. Besides everything we were training had already been battle tested by those who had gone before us. There was no need to put ourselves at risk.
Yet there it was on film, a bunch of guys using their skill to defend themselves and putting their health on the line.
My second feeling was anticipation, because I wanted to do it as well.

The path to my first Gathering took me a few years, but looking back on it, the main thing that stopped me going sooner was me. That wasn’t a bad thing, for all the good I have to say about a Gathering, it’s a dangerous thing to do & you need to be doing it for the right reasons. To paraphrase Crafty “Sometimes, especially the first time, you should just watch”

When I got to Switzerland that first time, the fear running through me was immense. On more than one occasion I thought of backing out & had conversations with Guro Crafty & Guro Lonely about the emotions I was feeling. The openness with which they discussed their own pre-fight emotions will always amaze me. It all boiled down to one thing, if you weren’t scared, there was something wrong. It reassured me to realize that despite all their skill and successful experience, the fear was still there and they did it anyway. My own fear, while still a powerful force, started to seem a little less dominating.

The moment of truth came quickly, the fighters had assembled & Crafty said the Magic words “"No judges, no referees, no trophies. One rule only: Be friends at the end of the day. Our goal is that everyone leaves with the IQ with which he came and our goal is that no one spends the night in the hospital. However, only you are responsible for you, so protect yourself at all times. No suing no one for no reason for nothing, no how, no way."”
Guro Lonely got up and put on his mask for the first fight of the day. If I didn’t do it now, I’d never do it. I felt a moment of detachment as I put on my mask and walked to the centre. The Drummers started, we tapped in & the two most spiritual minutes of my life started.

For the two minutes that we fought, nothing else outside existed, my job, my credit card bills, and the fact that my car needed new brakes….
For the fist time that I can remember, I existed only in the moment. Every second that passed was the only second that mattered. Everything except what was in front of me faded in perspective. A man who is extremely skilled in what he does, pushing me to the limit of what he feels I can take (at one point, I could have sworn that Lonely smiled at me through his mask after setting me up beautifully. He swears he didn’t). The only thing to protect me is the stick in my hand, the light gloves & the thin mask on my face. In those two minutes I experienced a feeling of responsibility and self awareness that had been missing in my life till that point.
In day to day life it’s easy to pass responsibility for everything onto everyone else. You trip in the street, someone should have fixed the paving. You crash your car, the other guy should have watched where he was going. You get knocked out or hurt, your corner or the ref should have stopped the fight earlier.

Here was a place where only I was responsible for my actions, I made the choice to come, I did the extra hours at work to buy my plane ticket, I stood up, I put on my mask and if I got hurt, it was due to the choices I alone had made.
If however I grew in some way, regardless of the outcomes of any of my fights, learned a little, matured a little, moved a little bit closer to being the type of man I want be. Then this would be down to how I dealt with the path I’d chosen.
This was and is a very powerful realisation.

The realisation that I solely was responsible for the direction of those two minutes,  and how I chose to deal with any consequences, has passed through to the rest of my life & I hope it will be with me for a long time to come.

There are a hundred other reasons to fight at a Gathering, for one thing you’ll never meet more honest or friendly people. For me though, it’ll always be to again experience those two minutes and rediscover the awareness they teach. That only I am responsible for my course in this life, and anything else is just excuses or fear.

To remind myself, that when it comes down to it, “Only you are responsible for you”


“Dog” Graeme Higgins has been training FMA for the last 10 years and is the first person in the UK to be both accepted into the Dog Brothers tribe and made a Lakan Guro in Dog Brothers Martial Arts.

To Contact Graeme, please visit
www.combative.co.uk or www.myspace.com/elhig   

For more information on Dog Brothers UK, please visit
www.DogBrothers.co.uk or www.myspace.com/DogBrothersUK
Logged
Scotty Dog
Frequent Poster
**
Posts: 70

It's Only a flesh wound


« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2007, 02:33:16 PM »

<<Blush>>
Logged

"Cos Beliefs, are just that. They're nothing, they're how your taught and raised. That doesn't make them real...
Everything you've learned is in fact just learned & not necessarily true"

Bill Hicks
peregrine
Power User
***
Posts: 197


« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2007, 12:41:40 AM »

Very interesting thread.
One i contemplate daily.
Logged
Karsk
Power User
***
Posts: 100


« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2007, 12:34:35 PM »

Good Monday morning,

Some other thoughts that I would like to offer up for consideration and discussion:

Another element to this discussion is how to manifest the things you learn in training in your daily life.  If I face someone in sparring and I get hit I cannot deny this.   Such an event is extremely honest. There is nothing I can do, no rationalization I can make that allows me to avoid the fact that I was unable to get out from that attack.  So I have a choice.  I can learn to deal with it one way or another.  Over time you get used to accepting such blunt assessments of the moment and just trying to keep learning and growing. Its doesn't matter what venue you find yourself in.  This is a fact of life.

This is just one example of how a lesson in martial practice that has relevance in the rest of your life.  The premise is "facing yourself in practice can translate to facing yourself in general".   

----

There are people that I know who have the same values that I have who have never been in a martial arts environment.  Within a non-martial arena they are capable of great courage and they can act on their convictions. They seem to be similar in their values as I.   There are people who are not physical warriors but who demonstrate far greater courage than I.  I have an obligation to recognize and support those people

----

One lower level way to manifest martial virtues is to become a hero to others.  I dont mean lower = not as good.   I mean lower as in "the first thing that you come up with" or "the most fundamental." 

This is okay but in the long run always acting in this manner  is not sustainable because it enables those being rescued to remain weak.  It's better to help others to become "knight-like". This is a sustainable and synergistic practice. It is why there always seems to be a teaching element in this.  I think that Kurosawa's film...the seven samurai is  about this.


Cheers,

Karsk





Logged
maija
Power User
***
Posts: 299


« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2007, 07:22:16 PM »

hi karsk,
i agree with you.
martial arts, and free sparring in particular are a very direct path to seeing yourself as you really are, and for understanding human nature in general. for instance, if you can predict your opponent, you can lead them. if you can lead them,  you can defeat them.
sun tze said "if he is superior in strength, evade him. if your opponent is prone to anger, irritate him. pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant".
obviously life is not all combat, but dealing with the world is an interactive process, and understanding people, in whatever situation, is a very useful skill to have.
 also....seems like buzwardo's insights in the 'training' thread fit in this thread also.
 passing on one's skills, martial or otherwise, to others is a great skill in itself.
 have high expectations and lead by example.
Logged

It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first.
Miyamoto Musashi.
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 29607


« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2007, 09:14:25 AM »

Woof All:

I know I still have the question presented about DB/DBMA in all of this, but this AM before I start my day I would like to offer some rambling thoughts on a different element of this thread.

Knights in shining armor were Christian and the Code of Chivalry was in that context, so it occurs to me to extract the universal concept here we may benefit from contemplating this a bit.

Although I am Jewish, recently I read "The Way of the Wild Heart" by John Eldredge a Christian oriented author, which I would describe as an interesting blend of Jungian archetypal analysis and "Manly Christianity" (see the thread of this name on our "Humanities" forum nearby).  There is much in JE's writing that will be familiar to readers of Jungian's such as Robert Bly (author of "Iron John" and other books)  JE is of the Christian school of thought that contrary to the representations of many, Christianity is NOT a pacifist religion and that there has been a feminization of it contrary to God's word/Jesus's  teachings.

"The Way of the Wild Heart" is written about the stages of a man's life and how to father them.   These stages overlap greatly and there is tremendous variation within them.   Working from memory, I would say that JE organizes them thusly:

1) I am embarrassed to say that I do not remember the exact name for this stage but I have lent the book to a friend and so cannot look it up  embarassed  The gist of it is that throught the age of 12 is that the primary mission of the father is to let his son know that he believes in him and takes delight in him;
2) The Ranger/Cowboy takes place from 12 to 21.  Here the boy begins to learn competence in the way of the world in things that often have overtones of danger: chopping wood, competence with tools, rough and tumble activities, hiking/camping, etc.
3) The Warrior begins around 18 and continues until , , , ,.
4)  The Lover begins around 26.  By the Lover, JE does not mean being able to have sex with lots of women or give them lots of orgasms, but to have a sense of the wonder and beauty of Life.  Art and Music are examples of this.  He uses the Torah's King David as an example when he writes Psalms of great beauty.  His point is that until a man has developed this part of himself he is not of much real use to a woman and contrasts young men/males of today who are stuck in the Ranger/Warrior phase and lack the ability to move forward and emotionally commit to a woman and to family life.
5) The King, whom he defines as "Someone whom can be trusted with power" (I like this definition).  For most men this is being the leader of their family
6) The Sage-- an advisor to Kings

Using this framework, Chivalry is the development of the understanding in medieval Christian Warrior culture of bringing the Lover to the Warrior-- thus preparing the way for the emergence of the King e.g. King Arthur.

It is interesting to note that in Homer's Iliad the the book ends not with the sacking of Troy, but with the funerals for Patroclus and Hector.  This drives us modern westerners crazy and thus we see the movie "Troy" include the sacking of Troy.  But why did Homer conclude the Iliad as he did?  Achilles' squabbles with King Agamemnon over Respect are those of a Warrior missing a certain something.  He becomes ashamed of his disrespect to the fallen Hector when confronted by Hector's father, the old King Priam, who is the Sage who teaches him about the seasons of Life.  Achilles' weeps for all that he has done and realizes that he must grant his enemies Respect. 

This for Homer is what the Iliad is about-- the beginning of a new Archetype in Greece's Warrior culture.

Anyway, big themes hastily composed at the start of a very busy day.  Please forgive the inarticulate and imprecise and vague expression.

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog

PS:  I will look to get to the themes about the Dog Brothers and DBMA in the next couple of days.




Logged
Karsk
Power User
***
Posts: 100


« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2007, 02:07:47 PM »

Cool stuff.

This is illustrating the point that the concepts and values transcend cultures.

Here is more, this time from Japanese culture:

Shintoism:

Stage 1:  Animal senses (awareness, basic connection to the world, untrammeled by thought, unfocused attention on everything and anything)
Stage 2. Command of Reasoning
Stage 3. Calm but happy feeling
Stage 4. Harmony, Spirit with ALL
Stage 5. Spiritual Truthful Pure

Buddhism:

1. Control of senses
2. Reasoning
3. Concentrated meditation
4. Unconscious or subconscious mind
5. Nothingness, Absolute, Before Heaven and Earth Separated.

Karate

1. Strong basics, Strength in eyes, hips, mind,  control of senses
2. Continuous combinations, Strategy and Spirit (Fearlessness), intellectual reasoning
3. escaping techniques, strong feeling with calmness, no power in shoulders
4. throwing techniques, mind, body, and hip oneness, humility and harmony
5. spirituality in character and healing.

These are all about developmental stages and bear some similarities to one another and to what Crafty presented.

Here is my take on the development of men taken from stories that I have heard and my own experiences:

1.   Child:  Awareness is open, untrammeled by thought, growing, learning, unfocused attention on anything and everything.  In a healthy state as aware as any animal and as unquestioning.
2.   Youth:  Boys and Frogs.  Wild and free, expression of Tom Sawyer energy.  Facing small challenges and dangers.  Adventure and excitement.  The understandings of comrades and tribes.  Mischief, laughter, the roots of male camaraderie.
3.   Hero:  Naïve grandiosity, bravado, facing challenges, breaking through limits, developing your skills as a man, filling the space with your energy, ostentatiousness.  Wild power. Fearlessness.  Have not yet been defeated.  Berserker. (Cuchulain, Champion of Ireland : this story is about Cuchulain’s transformation into a champion (http://www.bartleby.com/182/302.html )
4.   Champion.  Not Naïve.  Calm self control in the face of danger. Able to defeat a Hero of equal physical skill.  Has faced enemies more powerful than himself.  Able to function in the face grave challenges.  Aura incites faith and hope.  Ulysses, Cuchulain later in life,  others. 
5.   Elder. The ones who have passed through the previous stages and know by experience.  Because of their experience and the shortening of time that comes with age, they see the outcomes and so are not surprised. According to some of the Irish stories, they are the Leatherman with skin like leather.  Able to approach the hero and influence him in the fire of the hero’s passions.  Cuchulain entering the village after the heat of battle was so intense and enraged that the heat from his skin would set houses on fire as he walked past.  The Elders, the Leathermen, would grab him and sit him down.  They would pour a cauldron of water on the hero and the heat from his body was so great that he would turn the water into steam. The elders doused him 3 times before he was calm enough to walk around without causing problems.  The Leathermen are Leaders of the tribe but they lead through service and advice.
6.   Sage.  Advisor to the Elders.  Stands at Elders elbows.  Only teaches those who ask.  Merlin to King Arthur.


Cheers.

Karsk







Logged
Guide Dog
Power User
***
Posts: 825


« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2007, 05:14:12 PM »

This is a great thread with many people expressing relevant and thought provoking ideas.  The ideal of a knight versus the actual reality of knights has already been explored in this thread.  What strikes me about this topic is how much of human fiction is devoted to archetypal warrior characters.  I am writing about fiction, not history because fiction often shows us what human beings strive to be in light of reality.  A knight, a samurai, a Shaolin monk, an ignorant white man who learns warrior ways from another culture, a Jedi, etc., all have to do with an ideal warrior-intellectual who demonstrates for those around him what the best life path is.

It can often be inferred from these works that contain characters like this that the warrior knows their wisdom has come with a hard price.  The warrior-character usually waits for the days when they can move on to the next stage of life/manhood.  What is so troubling about real-life contemporary, archetypal villains (criminals, violent drug-addicts, gang members, etc.) is that they exhibit no signs of revering life and they do not give any thought to the future.  There is no "next stage" for them, whereas the warrior archetype from fiction is often waiting for "the war to end", or for "the fighting to stop" so that they can assume an elder/King/sage sort of roll. 

It strikes me that we have many templates for what could be a well-lived life available here in this thread.  Most of them seem to contain a warrior stage that comes fairly early on in the various progressions.  The progressions all seem to move from those stages to some sort of a father-figure/adviser roll.  In the DBMA logo, "heart" is on the top of the triangle.  In the Inosanto/LaCoste FMA triangle, love is at the top.  This is the same thing.  The healing arts are the last phase of FMA in Guru Inosanto's FMA progression.  ALL of these life templates are leading the warrior to the same place: being a guide/father/King/adviser/sage/healer who is loved and respected for having walked the path and now improving the world around him by guiding the youth through the same process.

It has already been articulately expressed in this thread that ideals for how to live life are usually met with skepticism in our culture and how unfortunate that is.  If we can have the courage to strap on fencing masks and hit one another with sticks to cultivate the warrior spirit, can we have the courage to say that we want to use martial art, or martial philosophy, or a martial experience/life to try and make the world a better place?  I already know how naive that last sentence must read as but it only reads as such because of cultural cynicism.  Do we have the courage to try and be a modern-day knight, Jedi, samurai, etc.?  If we can do that, it just may be that our world-wide dream for the world to be a good place, as demonstrated in fiction, might actually start to catch up with our reality.
Logged

Dr. Bryan Stoops, Ed.D.
Semi-Private/Private Instruction
Offered in Chino Hills, California
JKD/FMA/Silat/muay Thai/DBMA,
Savate/Wing Chun/grappling
http://stoops-martial-arts-academy.com/
bryan@stoopsma.com
Jeff Gentry
Frequent Poster
**
Posts: 51


« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2007, 05:55:19 PM »

This is a great thread with many people expressing relevant and thought provoking ideas.  The ideal of a knight versus the actual reality of knights has already been explored in this thread.  What strikes me about this topic is how much of human fiction is devoted to archetypal warrior characters.  I am writing about fiction, not history because fiction often shows us what human beings strive to be in light of reality.  A knight, a samurai, a Shaolin monk, an ignorant white man who learns warrior ways from another culture, a Jedi, etc., all have to do with an ideal warrior-intellectual who demonstrates for those around him what the best life path is.

It can often be inferred from these works that contain characters like this that the warrior knows their wisdom has come with a hard price.  The warrior-character usually waits for the days when they can move on to the next stage of life/manhood.  What is so troubling about real-life contemporary, archetypal villains (criminals, violent drug-addicts, gang members, etc.) is that they exhibit no signs of revering life and they do not give any thought to the future.  There is no "next stage" for them, whereas the warrior archetype from fiction is often waiting for "the war to end", or for "the fighting to stop" so that they can assume an elder/King/sage sort of roll. 

It strikes me that we have many templates for what could be a well-lived life available here in this thread.  Most of them seem to contain a warrior stage that comes fairly early on in the various progressions.  The progressions all seem to move from those stages to some sort of a father-figure/adviser roll.  In the DBMA logo, "heart" is on the top of the triangle.  In the Inosanto/LaCoste FMA triangle, love is at the top.  This is the same thing.  The healing arts are the last phase of FMA in Guru Inosanto's FMA progression.  ALL of these life templates are leading the warrior to the same place: being a guide/father/King/adviser/sage/healer who is loved and respected for having walked the path and now improving the world around him by guiding the youth through the same process.

It has already been articulately expressed in this thread that ideals for how to live life are usually met with skepticism in our culture and how unfortunate that is.  If we can have the courage to strap on fencing masks and hit one another with sticks to cultivate the warrior spirit, can we have the courage to say that we want to use martial art, or martial philosophy, or a martial experience/life to try and make the world a better place?  I already know how naive that last sentence must read as but it only reads as such because of cultural cynicism.  Do we have the courage to try and be a modern-day knight, Jedi, samurai, etc.?  If we can do that, it just may be that our world-wide dream for the world to be a good place, as demonstrated in fiction, might actually start to catch up with our reality.


Dog Bryan

Actualy you have brought something to the forefront of my mind, I spent 6 year's as a US Marine and a few year's ago i read a book based on a journalist experience having traveled with the Marines(Making the Corps), what he noticed was 19, 20, 21 year old's who would lead a patrol and be out 4 -5 hour's among "Bad Guy's" and then when they returned would play with the children and share there food in what ever place they were and he said it made him wonder how these "Kid's" were capable of a full on combat mindset one minute and gentle playfulness with children a few minute's after returning, so he decided to follow a Platoon through boot camp and into the fleet Marine Force.

Having traveled this path myself I have seen many young professional warrior's who were very Gung ho and as they got older and matured as professional's learned to be a "father figure" to the younger Marine's and knew it was there responsibility to guide and teach them how to not only be good Marine's but also good people.

I think as we age and mature when faced with our own mortality we tend to see thing's a little diffrently.

Just another thought.

Jeff
Logged

Usque Ad Finem
Guide Dog
Power User
***
Posts: 825


« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2007, 07:43:35 PM »

Jeff,

Your experience is one of professional warriors trying to use their knowledge to guide future generations.  You were doing that in a situation where the knowledge you were passing on really did play a part in the survival of those military professionals that you were guiding.  Talk about testing knowledge in the adrenal state!   Personally, I am a public school teacher and a martial arts enthusiast.  However, our goal of passing on knowledge to those who came after us to help define character is the same.  While my job sometimes feels like combat, you however performed that role in a military environment.  You have my deep respect and admiration.
Logged

Dr. Bryan Stoops, Ed.D.
Semi-Private/Private Instruction
Offered in Chino Hills, California
JKD/FMA/Silat/muay Thai/DBMA,
Savate/Wing Chun/grappling
http://stoops-martial-arts-academy.com/
bryan@stoopsma.com
Karsk
Power User
***
Posts: 100


« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2007, 01:53:15 AM »

video clip moved to Science, Culture and Humanities.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 11:17:34 AM by Karsk » Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 29607


« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2007, 08:54:47 AM »

I remember this documentary-- absolutely awesome!  Do you have its name?

I agree that we now see a lot of political commentary seeking to use wildlife biology, but I think that will take us a bit astray from the topic of this thread.

How about posting on this on the Science, Culture etc forum at http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1169.0
or even start a thread on "Politics mingling in the science of nature" or something like that.

Logged
Karsk
Power User
***
Posts: 100


« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2007, 11:02:48 AM »

I only know it as Lions vs Hyenas.   Will do on the moving the post.

Karsk
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!