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Author Topic: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?  (Read 28419 times)
maija
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« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2007, 02:00:09 PM »

in trying to link the tangent of this thread to the original question......
it seems to me that the crucial link between TT drills and real time usage in an interaction with an armed opponent, is understanding where? and when? it becomes applicable. it seems that the general consensus is that middle range is somewhere you are going to be at some point unless you have the time and wherewithall to escape completely.
with that in mind, training what you are going to do when you get there seems very important, and TT drills, i believe, at the least help you lengthen your attention span so you can better flow from one thing to the next without freezing up.
looking back on training with sonny, as i said before, we worked out in his living room, and as guro crafty can attest, it is not a particularly large space.  what we spent a great deal of time investigating,  through necessity, was the edge of the "bubble", seeing as only the corners of the room were truly out of range!
this gave me the opportunity to start to understand about entries, timing, evasive fottwork and body angles, and also exits (which turned out to be much harder). this in turn gave me the context for what we call 2nd flow range, i.e weapon can reach the body, live hand can reach the opponents weapon hand, or TTD range.
although sonny had replaced all fixed patterns by the time i started training, we did, for instance, work on random palakaw to better understand how to wall up and other random flows with contact, but they were always done in the context of  how to get from there to where you really wanted to be...grappling range or out of range.
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2007, 02:30:36 PM »

My Dad always told me he liked the line "I'll fight you in a telephone booth" when someone was starting something.  It insinuates that his close quarter tactics are much more useful and effective than his opponents long range tactics.  Not that close range always "wins" over long range but take away the ability to come out of close-middle range and people tend to get claustrophobic.  Long range (wide open spaces) fights almost always have the chance to come in close (as we saw last night with Randy & Tim  grin, but not the other way around.  Very close confined spaces fights can't always go out to long range (cars, bathroom stalls, closest, etc).

Gruhn
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2007, 10:12:03 PM »

In case no one noticed, the promo clip for GF2: Maestro Sonny Umpad is up on the front page.

I moved briefly with Maestro Sonny in Dusseldorf, Germany a couple of years before he came down sick and he really was something quite special.  Footwork and range control were of another level altogether-- and if I understand ArmyDoc correctly he has been trying to raise the same question as what a goodly part of Maestro Sonny's curriculum was about-- cultivating the ability to control whether the range was in medio/corto or in largo.  I'm a big believer in the importance of primal forward pressure and that many FMA players (gun players too!) simply don't get it-- indeed this is one of the main points of our DLO material-- but I would be hard pressed to think of someone who could close on Maestro Sonny without dying first.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 01:34:13 AM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
armydoc
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« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2007, 01:02:36 AM »

and if I understand ArmyDoc correctly a goodly part of his curriculum was about cultivating the ability to control whether the range was in medio/corto or in largo.  I'm a big believer in the important of primal forward pressure and that many FMA players simply don't get it-- indeed this is one of the main points of our DLO material-- but I would be hard pressed to think of someone whom could close on Maestro Sonny without dying first.


Guro Crafty:

Yes, I'm glad someone understood what I was saying!   grin   My apologies if I have taken this thread off on a tangent.  But it seemed that everyone (including me) agreed that the middle range drills had value.   So I thought I would expand the discussion by pointing out that the outside ranges were valuable and deserved specific attention in their own right.   But it seems that idea has not gone over too well.   I also hoped to get a better feeling for how much time the typical FMA devoted to specifically training knife work in the outside ranges.   It sure seems that the answer has been "not much."   Unfortunately, it appears that I have offended Rafael in some way.   So I'll just shut up now!   My apologies to Rafael...as it was not my intention to offend or to seem hostile in any way.

Keith
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2007, 01:48:33 AM »

For the record, I've tried cleaning up some of the fractured syntax that was in my previous post.

Anyway, group hug everyone?  grin
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Sun_Helmet
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« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2007, 11:25:20 AM »

 It sure seems that the answer has been "not much."

As I stated earlier, you are placing a quantitative measurement on training which as an instructor I don't put much value in compared to quality of instruction. The whole thread is based on the QUALITYof TTDs not how much time you reserve in training it.

You could be placing 75 percent of your training on (insert any range here) drills and the drills could be installing incorrect responses.

"It seems" that point hasn't been made enough?

What IS apparent is that you are incorrectly assuming that FMAs don't focus on various long range drills, and then you quote Guro Marc and he is quite frankly stating that many FMA players tend to focus TOO much on NON forward pressure:

"many FMA players simply don't get it-"

and that the Late Maestro Sonny Umpad was obviously someone who knew ALL the ranges quite well.

From that you incorrectly conclude FMAs do not spend time in the long ranges...Huh?

The recent COLD STEEL CHALLENGE is a highly publicized open tournament involving competitors from all types of sword arts. They include WMAs, chinese and various FMAs. The Atienza Kali group competed two years in a row and won the event both times - a LONG RANGE sword event entering different students both years. I believe previous years were also won by FMAs from other systems.

Unfortunately, it appears that I have offended Rafael in some way.   So I'll just shut up now!   My apologies to Rafael...as it was not my intention to offend or to seem hostile in any way.

Keith


I don't believe I stated I was offended.

Btw, group hugs start in the middle range.


--Rafael--
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 11:45:34 AM by Sun_Helmet » Logged

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peregrine
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« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2007, 12:25:12 PM »

Maija very good posts throughout this thread. I have been really trying to do what you mentioned of closing the distance but appearing to maintain the same distance. Excellent strategy. From what i have seen and heard Eric Knaus does this very well. Your mention of footwork in a small area seemed to create wonderful challenges for you.
Question-
from the limited things i have seen and read on Maestro Sonny, what particular dance steps did he favor? As i have been watching my latin dance dvds. lol trying to emulate some of them into stickwork. chacha, mamba, lol.
for evasion?
for attack?
others?

thanks in advance.
 
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2007, 04:45:32 PM »

Since dancing was mentioned I found an article on Tinikling:

http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/tinikling.htm

What do Traditional Filipino Dancers know that could Improve your Arnis, Kali, or Eskrima Skills?

The Tinikling
How Traditional Filipino Dance Can Develop Your Combative Attributes!
By Pete Kautz, 2005
It was roughly 17 years ago when I accidentally discovered a secret about the martial art I was studying. It was something so obvious, something we had all been told about, and even told was important...yet it was something that no one seemed to be paying any attention to. Can you imagine that?

When all the books and Grandmasters of your art mention that something is important, shouldn't you at least be tempted to "look into it" a little?

The thing was...it didn't seem to make any sense!

Here we were studying the martial art of Arnis, a powerful stick, knife, and unarmed fighting system. But all these sources pointed directly to...folk dances???

"Sure," some will scoff, "and what next, maybe eating some adobo to improve my skills, too?" You know, I can't blame the folks who say that, because I felt that way at one point too. But you know what? Even though I felt that way, I've always been glad that I decided to take a chance and try it anyhow.

Now, when your instructor says to you "We need a few more people for a demo, can you help?" how can you respond, but positively? That's how this all got started...how I stumbled across this training method!

What weapons would we be using I wondered? What kinds of cool demo tricks would we do? Break some boards? Maybe a self-defense demo with sticks and knives? These questions and more all raced through my mind as we finished up class that evening, before the "demo team" would meet.

The instructors brought in some long staffs, and we got ready. "I'll need a partner" the male instructor said, "to help demonstrate the Tinikling (teeh-NEEHK-lihng)."

Now, as a novice I had NO IDEA what in the world that was, but it just sounded deadly as hell and I wanted to learn it, so of course ran up up to volunteer.

"The Tinikling is based on the movements of birds known as tiklings." Guru John explained.

Sure, everyone knows how martial arts styles have copied animals, right? So I thought that maybe this was like a Filipino "crane-style" he was going to be showing us.

"Now crouch down and grab the other ends of these two poles." He ordered.

What kind of wild fighting technique was this? Staff groundfighting? And then what happens next?

"Now, hit the polls to the ground two times; and then together, you see?"

As we clacked the poles together on the third beat I caught my knuckles on the sticks. Ouch! This was a lesson in grip on the sticks and how to maneuver them while shifting the stick in your hand. Quickly one learns to keep the rhythm...1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3...and not smash their fingers!

Then the female instructor then came over an started dancing in between the sticks! I was worried! Wasn't she going to get her ankle caught in the sticks as we clacked them together? She sensed my nervousness and just laughed, "Now speed it up!"

And then things really got crazy!

Guru Tammy stepped out and told us to pay attention. She and and Guru John both picked up their pairs of rattan sticks. They started to do the siniwalli, the hypnotic weaving patterns with the double sticks, where both people strike the canes together. Again, the rhythm was 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3.

Then they told us to start the rhythm with the poles again, for the tinikling. They took up their places on the outside, and then proceeded to do the siniwalli while doing the steps of the tinikling! This was amazing! As they wove in and out between the poles, their sticks clacking loudly, the smell of burnt rattan filled the air.

Finally, they both stepped out with a spin, saluted each other and brought the dance to a close.

"Now it's your turn!" said Guru Tammy with a wink...

In the next two weeks I learned enough of the tinikling steps to be able to take part in the demo, and it was a fun, but the best part was seeing the real Filipino dancers that were there!

From the first moment they started to dance, their skill and grace was clearly evident. They had the flow which Professor Presas always spoke of. By comparison, I think we must have looked like mga baka (cattle) doing the tinikling instead of the fleet-footed birds the dance is supposed to emulate!

Some of the dances showed balance and fluidity, like the candle dance. Here the girls had small glass candles balanced on each palm and a third balanced on their head. Unlike some people I have seen doing this dance, these girls did not "cup" or in any way hold onto the candles with their fingers. They made a great point of keeping their palms flat and fingers outstretched. All the while they moved their arms in circles and figure-eights, like in KunTao, Silat, and Pa Kua Chang (Baguajang). They even had movements where they would kneel, then sit, then roll on the floor...all in a delicate "ladylike manner" and all without dropping the candles on their head and hands or spilling any wax!

There was also the Maglalatik (mahg-lah-lah-TIHK) or coconut dance, which seemed more obviously martial in application. The men came out in two groups, half in red pants and half in blue pants. Each was wearing a vest of 4 or 6 half coconut shells and holding a half-coconut in each hand, and they had more strapped onto their hips and thighs! What the heck was this all about???

As the music started, the men all kept the rhythm by hitting the shells in their hands together, and then hitting them into the shells on their chest and thighs. Then the two sides turned towards each other and started to strike the shells on each other's body. This was a trapping and boxing method hidden in a dance. They would hit shells in their hands and then on the body, taking turns as they developed parry and strike combinations and keeping the beat going.

Another dance had a funny section where the couples were facing each other. The boys all would step forward and go to kiss the girls on the cheek...but the girls would use a triangular evasion step and elbow shield (which was made to look "cute" by the performers, like brushing the hair) to get out of the way. Then they would both step back to their starting positions, and the boy would try to kiss her on the other cheek, only to have her slip away with the same evasion and counter to the other side. This was "Angle 1 and Angle 2 Defense Against Kissing!"

Part II
The Legend of a Bear who became a Tikling bird!
Flash forward several years from that night... I'm teaching Arnis to a small but dedicated group in Buffalo. These guys all came from different arts, so it was like a Kung Fu movie at times with the good-natured rivalry between them and between their styles ("You dare insult [Karate / Kung Fu / Judo, etc.], then you'll have to fight me!")

This particular night I am teaching the tinikling to them at the end of class. One of the students, Ed, was Filipino, and knew the tininkling from when he was a kid. The guys were "skeptical" to put it mildly. We got started and one by one the students worked their way through, until only one of them remained...Daryl the Bear!

Daryl was just about 330 lbs. with wrists so large most people couldn't reach around them with using both hands. He was a doorman at bars and strip-clubs in Buffalo and Fort Erie, and the girls all called him "the bear" too...well, not really...they all called him "teddy" and we knew this.

(We also knew he would murder us in our sleep if we ever called him "teddy"; so "bear" was as close as we could come to saying "that word" without saying it.)

In any case, he had been staring at the clacking poles with ever widening eyes and a clearly growing sense of apprehension. "Uh, do I have to do this?" he asked halfheartedly.

"Would you do it for a Scoobie Snack?" asked Ace, producing a cigarette.

"I'll about need it afterwards." said the Bear, as he started to dance...

I don't know quite what happened next. It might have been something about the heaving 330 pounds of stomping bear-bulk on a gymnastics floor, it might have been something about the look of serious determination on his face. It might have been the way he had his tongue stuck out sideways between his teeth...I don't know.

It was scary though, and we reacted as frightened men do...we fell down laughing.

But now the Bear was riled. "Well, pish-posh on you, fie and a pox*" he said. (Not his actual words, but you get the drift, right?)

Yes, the Bear was mad...but what he did next shocked me.

A few months later the boys were ready for their first level test. On it, among other things, was the tinikling. Just like learning how to count in Tagalog and knowing certain terms, I felt it was important to pass part of the culture on too.

The boys worked through their other requirements. Kicks, strikes, trapping, flow-drills, single stick, double stick, knife, anos (forms) and so on. As we got towards the end I wanted to give them a little break so I asked "Do you want to do tinikling next or go right to the sparring?"

"Tinikling!" said the Bear.

We laughed, but set up the poles, and like the last time people started to go through the steps. Unlike last time, since they were now tired, people did a little worse than the last time they had done this. Daryl just stared at the poles, seemingly transfixed by the rhythm. 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3.

Then his turn came, and what we saw amazed us!

As Daryl started into the tinikling, there were no "thundering hoof beats" on the floor. He moved nimbly and quickly. His balance was low but mobile so he didn't waste time in making his steps. They were not quicker than the other people's, but the timing and accuracy of weight shifting and stepping was better.

The Bear had been practicing!

And you know what? It showed!

He did a few fancy spins through and back, taking time on the outside to reset himself to the rhythm if need be, but he kept moving in time so it looked like he "meant to do it."

Then he stopped and said "OK...NOW let's do the sparring."

The Bear was mighty that night, and as we celebrated over many a drink later on I asked him how he had trained the tinikling. He told us he had been pissed-off that night so he decided to learn it. I guess when his stripper friends heard he was learning "some dance" they thought that was funny so they encouraged him, "Oh, show it to me!"

How could he resist?

That, and he basically just wanted to make us all "shut the hell up."

But somewhere in the distance we heard the tikling bird laughing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc8VqBb5xwU
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maija
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« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2007, 11:07:47 PM »

hi peregrine,
yeah, the more i train, the more footwork seems key....especially when evasion is crucial as is the case with bladed weapons.
Sonny was a hustle dancer, which i believe is mostly done holding the hand of your partner. there was a circuit of clubs in the Bay Area which held competitions, and Sonny and his friends would go from one to the next, to dance.  this sometimes turned interesting if the locals did not appreciate an outsider dancing with their women and winning the competition... but that's another story.
i think he developed his leading and drawing skills through dancing, as well as his ability to sell a feint, along with the obvious skills of being light on his feet and being able to spin to generate power. he would encourage those students that did not like to move very much to go salsa dancing.
also, the living room in which we trained had an eight pointed cross (like a compass), painted on his floor and we used this as a guide for much of our footwork. apparently this appeared after an evening when his ladyfriend, elena, taught him the cha cha....
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2007, 11:28:46 PM »

All this is very interesting!

By the way, was not Bruce Lee the cha-cha champion of Hong Kong at one point?
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2007, 01:57:55 PM »

OK, since we are bringing up dancing Guro Lonely Dog mentioned something else I believe the FMA "tippy tap" drills / sinawali instills in people which is rythmn which is needed to dance as well.  Training to music is always fun, but the click clack of the sticks from sinawalis also produce a nice rythmn, kinda like a metronome 

Quote
MT: How does the use of rhythm training (training to music) improve a students performance with regards to fighting in a Gathering?

BR: Again this varies from fighter to fighter and some people just have no rhythm! Someone does not need to have rhythm to be a good fighter. if someone has no rhythm I dont force them to train with rhythm but if they have a bit of feel for it then it can help a great deal. I have developed something called the 'Boogie Woogie' as a specific shadow boxing drill and since I have done this I have discovered how to break rhythm, maintain rhythm and control the pace of a fight. I believe its a major point in fighting to dominate the rhythm you want to fight and how to change that rhythm to disrupt your opponent and force him to create an opening.


Also

From:

http://imdb.com/name/nm0000045/bio


Quote
The talented & athletic Bruce also took up cha-cha dancing, and at the age of 18 won a major dance championship in Hong Kong.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 02:05:05 PM by Robertlk808 » Logged

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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2007, 02:13:15 PM »

OK... I was while searching for more concrete info that Bruce was a Cha-Cha Champion I found this as well...

http://www.mimagazine.com.au/Issue01_Jan/BruceLee.htm

Why Martial Artists make Better Dancers
The Link between Martial Arts and Dancing 
 
Did you know that Bruce Lee - perhaps one of the greatest legends in martial arts - was also Hong Kong Cha Cha Champion in 1958? Indeed, Bruce Lee was an accomplished Latin dancer in his home town of Hong Kong before moving to the US to study and develop his martial arts system of Jeet Kune Do (Way of the Intercepting Fist)..   
 
 
 
So what was it about dancing that the young Bruce found so interesting, when to the rest of the world would only know him for his fighting skills?
Well here is one good reason: great dancing needs a lot of talent in all the right dance areas, including balance, timing, co-ordination, foot work and sensitivity. Superior martial artists require many of the same skills, often overlooked by power-hungry males! Martial artists that understand and develop these elusive qualities often naturally move to translate these skills to the dance floor!

The opposite scenario of course applies too: talented dancers are at a huge advantage when starting off in the martial arts. Bringing with them rhythm, timing, physical awareness and flexibility, the transition from dancing to martial arts can be a hugely rewarding one. While the diversions and enjoyment of dancing are multiple, the inner sense of confidence that martial arts can provide is second to none.

A prime quality shared by both dancers and martial artists is the ability to work with a partner, that is, 'the lead'. To be able to read your partner and follow their movements correctly in both time and space, whilst remaining balanced so that the two of you are in total harmony, is at the core of the true martial arts experience.

Anticipating each others intentions and therefore compensating for every possible error in judgment, whether by fault of balance or miss timed movement, is equally critical. In martial arts the action can be a little more intense, but the speed and tempo of great Latin dancing can also approach 'fast and furious'!

You have to execute your skills in defined area and even utilize your peripheral awareness (non-focused lateral visual contact) to avoid collisions on the dance floor.

Sensitivity of the palm and wrist to directional control in order to lead and spin is also used in the martial arts of Wing Chun and Tai Chi, and other systems where perception, awareness, sensitivity and control are highly valued, not just power.

It is interesting to observe that many of the 'showy' dance moves used today could have come straight out of martial arts 'text books' written thousands of years ago. A performance move often seen in partner dancing involves the man sweeping his right leg up and over his outstretched left hand, momentarily breaking contact with his partner - in martial arts otherwise known as an outside crescent kick! Or how about the dynamic spinning routines in break dance where the performer starts by twirling his legs overhead, spins on his back, and then pops onto his hands? No better example can be found than Jet Li's Wu Shu exhibitions in the movie Once Upon a Time in China! Then, of course, there is the example of Capoeira, a beautiful and powerful fusion of Brazilian rhythms, music, dance and martial arts.

Many of the same skills at work in dance are just applicable to the martial arts, and especially in that of Kung Fu where you are not just employing power but all the subtle talents of dancing as well.
 
 
By Sigung (and salsa dancer) Geoff Bennett of 'Geoff Bennett Martial Arts International (GBMAI)'.

Geoff has been studying and teaching a hybrid martial arts system based around Kung Fu for over 20 years and is currently in the process of translating his skills to the dance floor. Dancing students can hone their timing, sensitivity, flexibility and dynamic peripheral awareness skills at several GBMAI martial arts classes around Sydney.
http://www.martialarts-int.com.au
 
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Tony Torre
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« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2007, 10:15:56 PM »

Interesting that you guys bring up dance.  My wife did classical and modern dance for many years from early childhood into her late teens.  She took up martial arts after meeting me.  Her movement skills resemble those of much more experienced martial artists.  With only a few months of semi serious training she was keeping up with much more experienced martial artists.  I sincerely believe that her dance training gave her a body awareness and movement vocabulary that she was able to easily convert to martial movements.  For the record her martial arts preferences are boxing and Thai boxing. 

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com
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Sun_Helmet
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« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2007, 08:18:00 AM »

Many FMAs incorporate the sayaw as part of the training. During our Sama Sama we do the sayaw at night around a large bonfire. Only live blades are allowed in the circle with various native musical instruments and drums included. It works on many levels and I highly recommend doing a sayaw this way.

SK's Tuhon Felix Cortes was a well known breakdancer during the 80's - he was part of the RUN DMC tour back in the day. His movement and flow is so good that Manong Dan Inosanto sponsored him to compete in the sayaw competition out west in the early 80's. I believe another east coast rep in that competition was Eric Knaus.

Another is SK/FCS's Tuhon Ray Dionaldo, "smooth" is the word that is oft repeated when people try to describe his movements.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 08:20:39 AM by Sun_Helmet » Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2007, 08:29:43 AM »

Quote
he was part of the RUN DMC tour back in the day.

GET OUT!  Very Cool  cool

Gruhn
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TomFurman
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« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2007, 01:49:56 PM »

Running parallel to the 'tippy-tap' drills, ....who can give an example of the application of "destructions" aka gunteen, elbow spikes, etc. that Guro Inosanto uses as entry material to Empty hand Kali, and his Maphilindo Silat?

--Tom
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2007, 01:56:30 PM »

I'm thinking your question would be a better fit on the Kali Tudo thread.  Please ask it there and I will take care of the relevant deletions here.
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Jeff Gentry
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« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2007, 04:52:47 PM »

Gent's

Have not posted much on this thread i have been checking on it every few day's and thinking about a few diffrent thing's in relation to drill's in general.

I think alot of folk's who do not believe in "tippy-tap" drill's or "dead pattern's" do not fully understand full speed, full contact fighting, those of us who use these type of drill's know that they are not fighting or intended to simulate fighting and the actual drill will rarely if ever appear in a real speed, real contact situation what we learn in term's of movement, hand eye coordination or pressure sensitivity are the real heart of the drill.

The more familiar we become with our movement, our pressure, our distance and that of our opponent is what we then attempt to translate in the adrenal state of real contact, real speed, even learning these through use of a drill can take long while depending on the student, so trying to learn it by doing thing's at real speed all the time is somewhat ludicrous we can supplement the drill with real speed occasionally to become more comfortable and see what it is like in a more realistic manner the drill/dead pattern still has it's place in our training, Boxer shadow box, in WMA/HEMA we do flourysh's with the sword(abstract cutting drill akin to shadow boxing), but we do not do these to exclusion, when i was in the Marine corps we did IA drill's(Immediate action) so that if our gun jammed in a fire fight we could quickly determine what was wrong and correct it with out much thought, I see most of the drill's having benefit when taken in the right context.


Just my 2cent's worth.

Jeff
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« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2007, 09:07:00 PM »

Does anyone think that Bruce Lee might have had an influence on how many people think about "dead patterns" and drills?:

Quote
"All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns."

Are people misunderstanding Lee when they read this and his whole mentality of being formless?  Did Lee mean something else?  Yes rhetorical but I thought I should bring this point up!

Thoughts?

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
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Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
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« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2007, 11:59:37 PM »

Quote
Are people misunderstanding Lee when they read this and his whole mentality of being formless?  Did Lee mean something else?

I think so.

My interpretation would be that yes, fixed,set patterns are incapable of adatability on the basis of their name alone. 

However, as I was instructed (and what I believe to be Sijo Lee's thought), one should (notice I didn't say must) learn the basic patterns /katas/forms/angles in order to be able to then break out of the box and find your individual truth.

The following is pulled from an article he wrote:

The primitive stage is the stage of original ignorance in which a person knows nothing of the art of combat. In a fight he simply blocks and strikes instinctively without concern as for what is right and wrong. Of course, he might not be so-called scientific, but he is, nevertheless, being himself.

The second stage, the stage of art, begins when a person starts his training. He is taught the different ways of blocking and striking, the various ways of kicking, of standing, of moving, of breathing, of thinking. Unquestionably he is gaining a scientific knowledge of combat, but unfortunately his original self and sense of freedom are lost, and his action no longer flows by itself. His mind tends to freeze at different movements for calculation and analysis. Even worse, he might be "intellectually bound" and maintaining himself outside the actual reality.

The third stage, the stage of artlessness, occurs when, after years of serious and hard practice, he realises that, after all, gung fu is nothing special and instead of trying to impose his mind on the art, he adjusts himself to the opponent like water pressing on an earthen wall, it flows through the slightest crack. There is nothing to "try" to do but be purposeless and formless like water. Nothingness prevails; he no longer is confined.


Patterns and drills are a necessary part of the process through which you must clear your own path.
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krait44
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« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2007, 06:12:53 AM »

I just read every post! Took me awhile. Great thoughts and gave me much to ponder.

I have a wing chung friend who is a police officer. He uses his chi sao all the time. I believe because the nature of police work is control. Chi sao is mostly done in medio to corto range. Similiar to TTD. He is always demonstrating how perps fall right into his chi sao flows. The subtle awareness of pressure in one area creates an opening in another. This can only be mastered through flight time doing sensitivity drills.

One thing, I am surprised that no one mentioned is that TTD can be done while moving. In attacking blocks CD mentioned that developing that rythm, we look to insert technique. In TTD you become sensitive to maintaining spacial relationship with your oppponent (or partner if you are dancing.) Maintaining proper spatial relations in movement is MAI in Japanese. I believe you do not need to Cha Cha to realize this in your training. You just need to do moving TTD. If you develop a high level of spatial sensitivity then flowing from largo->medio->corto and back should not be so choppy. When you are smooth you can find the stutter step opening in your opponent and exploit that.

To me the moving TTD is what makes them so valuable. It is the practise of putting your feet to your blade or whatever that is the essence of TTD. To be clear I am no expert on TTD at least in FMA style.

 
   
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« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2007, 02:05:27 PM »

I find it interesting how many who eschew flow drills, themselves developed their skill sets starting out doing flow drills (be it sticks or knives).  In my not very experienced opinion flow drills help you develop attributes that allow you to, as somebody already said, step out of the box and expand.  The "danger" with flow drills, IMHO, is when they become one's training and there is no stepping out of the box and experimenting with non-compliant adversaries.

As far as control locks go, I have personally never seen them work on an adversary unless 1) the adversary was dummying up (be it in training or a bandit who didn't feel like going the full fight route), 2) the adversary had already been diminished by painful strikes, 3) the officer/agent was physically strong enough to force the control lock on a weaker adversary (e.g. burly cop on skinny, "malnourished" vegan).
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« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2007, 06:41:36 PM »

Yes! And yes!

In Kali/FMA it is standard doctrine that locks usually require one or more good hits (often to the limb in question) first.
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2007, 02:31:49 PM »

Earlier this thread we talked about "dancing" and its relation to martial arts and respected the fact that some of the great martial artists were also great dancers below is a blog from http://serradasatx.blogspot.com/2007/06/assassination-tango.html

Friday, June 15, 2007
Assassination Tango
 
Last night I was watching a movie titled Assassination Tango, starring Robert Duvall.
This effort seems to be Duvall using his craft to promote his real life passion of Argentine Tango. A synopsis of the movie is Duvall's character is a hitman sent to Argentina on a contract hit, encounters a snafu on his timeline and discovers a passion for Argentine Tango. As a movie it has a "Noir" quality to it, some of the scenes seem subtle and oblique. There seems to be an aspect of byzantine-politico-machinations and a possible reference to Augusto Pinochet.
Anyway, the Tango scenes are the saving grace of this film.
The female counterpart to Duvall is a Tango instructor, "Manuela" who is Duvall's wife in real life and looks to be half his age...nice work Duvall! She introduces him to the real stuff in a small studio where her healthy, curvaceous younger sister is teaching. The younger sister, wearing a little skirt and red stilleto heels, proceeds to demonstrate "el gancho", the hook, on Duvall. "El gancho" is a quick snapping leg manuever on the male dance partner's inner thigh, and with stilleto heels there's a fine line between pleasure and pain!;)

Watching this movie reminded me of my brief encounter with Argentine Tango in San Francisco, CA. Two of my motivations for pursuing Tango dance lessons were my fascination with Gypsy Lore and Culture for which the origins of Tango are attributed to, and the potential to improve my martial arts skill set by learning to move with a partner with singular unified movement and connectivity. Aaaand my social-life needed a shot in the arm.
My dance partner was a beautiful Filipina woman, and a co-worker. The first lesson was learning "the embrace", this was a body position that required both partners to make contact and stay connected at chest/breast level....I recall I got a bit light headed and struggled to concentrate for the rest of the class and following classes as well.
The instructor of the class was a beautiful Argentine woman who told a story of traditional Tango dance practice in Argentina: Due to the strict social mores men and women were separated in the learning of Tango - women learned tango with women and men learned tango with men. As in most Latin American countries "machismo" plays a big part in the culture so to make it acceptable for men to learn tango with other men the training was modified to display a more combative aspect to it. Looking at the footwork of Argentine Tango I can see kicks, sweeps, and leg hooks. I can see this existing in traditional Argentine Vaquero culture. Imagine a Vaquero executing "El gancho" while wearing sharpened spurs on his boots, things suddenly start to get dicey! Then out come the Navajas, "flick-click!"
It would be interesting to find that type of instruction! Wink
Aside from the passionate "embrace" position there is a variety of footwork that goes hand in hand with the leg maneuvers such as cross stepping and figure eights - Cruzadas Y Ochos.
The following is a list from Wikipedia:
Steps
While Argentine tango does not teach amalgamations of steps like swing, salsa, or ballroom dances do, there are some recurring figures that are taught. Here is a fairly typical order of steps that may be taught in a beginner classes.
Walks - a couple, in embrace, walks in unison
Salida Simple, or "eight-count basic" - salida as "the way out" onto the dance floor
Cruzada - (from cruzar - to cross) Action of the follower crossing her left foot over her right at certain points in the dance
Ocho - a figure-8 traced by the follower's feet when moving forward or backward.
Media Luna - a half giro.
Lapiz - "the pencil" - curved figures traced by the toe as an adornment
Molinete - "windmill" a turning figure of the follower around the leader (synonym for Giro)
Giro - a turn (in either direction)
Sacada - one partner displaces the other's unweighted leg
Gancho - one dancer hooks their leg around their partner's leg.
Barrida - one partner sweeps the others foot, displacing it along the floor
Arrastre - (= drag) synonym for "barrida"
Volcada - rotating the woman around her axis, while her axis is tilted toward the man, causes her to "capsize" making the free leg "spill" tracing a figure on the floor
Colgada - both dancers lean away from each other and outside of their standard axis. The weight shift is more analogous to sitting in a chair than leaning counter to one another as the shoulders stay positioned above the hips and the back is not rigid.
Parada - one dancer, usually the leader, halts the motion of the other dancer usually by blocking with the foot
Mordida - one dancer, usually the leader, places both feet on either side of the others dancers foot. Generally occurs after a Parada, with the second foot brought in forming a gentle squeeze on the other side of the foot which was halted with the parad.

Posted by Alex Castro at 12:39 PM   
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« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2007, 11:37:09 AM »

Alex,

If you can find the following books they may provide some insight into Latin styles of knife fighting.  Esgrima Criolla & El Manual De El Baratero.

The first one deals with Argentinian Gaucho knife fighting the second one deals with Spanish and Gypsy knife fighting.

Both books are in Spanish.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com



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Sun_Helmet
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« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2007, 03:10:37 PM »

The recent HBO series 24/7 focused on the upcoming Hatton/Mayweather boxing match had a humorous segment when Ricky Hatton was parodying Mayweather's "tippy tappy" focus mitt training. Hatton just didn't think it was very practical because the opponent/mitt holder was standing squared up to Mayweather. However, as many here know - working in that range using "hubad" like training works on many other things besides power, it is useful as long as it isn't the ONLY thing you do. For example, how is the reactionary response time honed when Mayweather is suddenly faced with an opponent who must move to get into position and has a wider striking arc?

Whether or not one likes Mayweather's personality or even if he loses to Hatton - one can't deny those drill's effectiveness for a fighter like Mayweather who also uses simultaneous block/strikes ala lots of Silat/FMA systems. So far he's won numerous titles and remained undefeated.

I like Hatton myself just because of his tenacity - he reminds me of Pacquaio, and this may be a very exciting bout between a clash of styles.

--Rafael--
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 03:12:21 PM by Sun_Helmet » Logged

--Rafael--
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« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2007, 03:45:00 PM »

I have comments on this post but my comments relate more to the boxing aspect so I will post over on the boxing thread in response.

Woof!

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
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