June 2007 Gathering

[SB_Mig]

Now that all the important questions have been asked....

Any suggestions on restaurants in the area? 

[Crafty_Dog]

Here's the mats:  https://ws04.ipowerweb.com/smartweb/swainsportsmats/cart/product_gold_mats.asp

[sting]

Sweet mats !  What color ?  Grey would probably be the most useful for video/photo to reduce color casts from reflective light.  Also, grey or black would give it that "underground" feel that the RAW gym exuded.  I really liked the feel of the RAW gym.

[Tom Stillman]

They look nice and spongy.

[sting]

The mats look pretty good.  Here are some comments by Prof. john Bono from the kajukenbo cafe forum on the differences between Swain and Zebra from :

:Zebra and Swain are very similar except the backing has better grip on the Zebra to the floor, rubberized and the top coat/outerskin on the Swain tends to be very abrasive on the skin.  My Chiro office is about 1 mile from Swain went there many time trying and looking at mats, but there follow through with customer service leaved much to be desired.  I compared the 2 side by side since the price was the same.  Zebra has a warehouse here in the bay area now, one of my students just bought mats from them.  The 1 inch mat was the best combo for hard stand up and ground work.  the thicker grappling mat, was a back killer if you are into boxing or Thai.  It just gave to much and presented foot supination, which leads to knee and ankle problems. I do have one thicker one for throwing drills we just drag out on the floor.   You could always come try mine and some one with Swains.  The main thing for me was the skin loss during heavy grappling, I like the smoother cover....:

[foxmarten]

i sure am looking forward to this gathering.  it will be my fifth, and every one so far has been exciting and educational.  while i doubt that i will ever fight myself, it is extremely useful to see the stick fighting i've practiced three times a week for the past few years used in a realistic context.  i have a few humble opinions on the points raised in this thread.

Cameras---i have found that flash cameras have been distracting at the gatherings and impart a carnival/paparazzi atmosphere.  modern electronics certainly allow flash free photos and this should be considered.

Pad Boys---While this might increase safety a bit i think that it would detract from the ambiance.  And in some ways they might increase the risk of injuries as well meaning security security guards do in concerts.  Best to banish those 18 and under from the first 2 rows.

Realistic Fights---I like the idea of chalking the blades, and the electronic knives are even better.  At one previous gathering i saw the most unrealistic situation in the stick fights rather than the knives.  some fighters were taking a stick strike to their helmeted head in order to deliver a strike to an opponent's unprotected shin/foot.  seemed unsporting.

The Wall---Pink Floyd would make excellent background music, IMHO.

Female Fighters---seem to lack opponents.  so nobody is willing to channel Andy Kaufman?


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."---HST

[Cyborg Dog]

We have these mats at the gym back in boston. They are a pleasure to work on.

Greg

[Crafty_Dog]

With permission from the author "PC" I post here his "senryu" (like a haiku, but unlike a haiku not about natural things) about what we do.
==============================

                   Preparations, thoughts boiling
                  Chaotic event transpires, no memories
                             Play, grow, breathe!
 

[sting]

Cameras---i have found that flash cameras have been distracting at the gatherings and impart a carnival/paparazzi atmosphere.  modern electronics certainly allow flash free photos and this should be considered.

Most of that is definitely due to my brother's photography to cover the Gathering.  He is equipped with a top of the line Nikon professional camera (D2H) ,  and a rare fixed focal length lens that is the best available for lower light photography.  In other words, if better photo equipment existed, I'd own it.   Even with that gear, some flash is required even to get a barely acceptible 1/200 to 1/250 shutter speed at f/2.2 or f/2.5 .  With a doubling in the camera's sensitivity, I'd go for f/2.8 or a higher shutter speed before reducing the flash level.  The major problem is combining fast action with the low lighting of most indoor facilities.  At the last two Gatherings, my brother and I replaced the RAW gym lights with new, high quality fluorescent bulbs that had a slightly higher light output. 

Perhaps another take on the flash pollution is the number of cameras.  Do we really need so many people taking pictures?  Almost none of the pictures will be any good, and almost no one submits them to Cindy or Marc for contribution to the gallery.  What do I consider to be a lousy Gathering photo?  A blurry action shot with a greenish tinge.  That is what every compact "Point&Shoot" and any DSLR with the "kit" lens will produce.  Perhaps we could choose a handful of people to provide additional coverage.

Overall, I agree with the sentiment that flash photography changes the feel of the event.  However, I think the photo gallery is one of the best ways to showcase the event.

[Howling Dog]

Since this gathering is going to be filmed by NG is there going to be extra lighting, thus excluding the need for flash?
If so, I suppose we are looking at some extra heat issues from the lighting.......Though if I'am not mistaken we are going to have AC......
I disagree on "choosing a handful of people" to take pics. Though all Ia'm intrested in si getting some pics with fellow tribe members before and after the gathering.......In other words.....I don't want to be told my wife can't take pics.
I orginally raised this issue when the no cameras thing came up
                                                                                          Dog Tom/SB

[Tom Stillman]

I think Tom is right. The studio lights should provide good to moderate lighting for snap shots.                     P.S.  Note to lighting guy:  Don't be thrifty, turn on a 750 !! 

[sting]

I think Tom is right. The studio lights should provide good to moderate lighting for snap shots.                     P.S.  Note to lighting guy:  Don't be thrifty, turn on a 750 !! 

The studio lights are adjusted to provide proper illumination at video shutter speeds, which are typically 1/60 or 1/30 second, depending on the camera.  I shoot at 1/90 (480i  and now 1080i)  for my garage fights, but I have a ten light banks. My brother Indris needed the flash even for the previous Gathering covered by Original Productions.  In still photography, anything below 1/200 second shutter speed yields blurry photos when the subjects are moving.

Come on, guys.  I've been working on this action photography situation for a few years.  The proof is in the Gallery starting with June 2004.  Think about it another way:  if it were possible to use less/zero flash or a compact camera, don't you think I'd do it?

My brother Indris is there to cover the event.  If you want any kind of picture, just ask him, pose and run.   A lot of pictures don't end up in the Gallery, but all you have to do is email me.

-Gints

[Howling Dog]

First off, The guy posting his complaints about flash has never fought in a gathering. As a previous fighter at raw, I have personally never been bothered by the flash.....lucky maybe, I don't know my attention seems to have been more directed on the stick buzzzing by my head .
Sting is right any action pics we have tried to take there have for the most part come out blurry, and weve got a decent digital camera......certainly no top of the line Nikon.
Like I said, I just want to be able to get my camera in so I can get some shots of the guys after the gathering. I don't want to be excluded from this because my cameras not good enough .
I don't really care if they have a no photos during the fights rule.....though like I said the flashes never bothered my before.....then thats just me.
Maybe someone whom has been bothered by flash could list a complaint?
                                                                               Dog Tom/SB

[Crafty_Dog]

No problem with personal cameras Dog Tom.  What we don't want to see is dual use cameras.

[sting]

I think Tom is right. The studio lights should provide good to moderate lighting for snap shots.                     P.S.  Note to lighting guy:  Don't be thrifty, turn on a 750 !! 

The studio lights are adjusted to provide proper illumination at video shutter speeds, which are typically 1/60 or 1/30 second, depending on the camera.  I shoot at 1/90 (480i  and now 1080i)  for my garage fights, but I have a ten light banks. My brother Indris needed the flash even for the previous Gathering covered by Original Productions.  In still photography, anything below 1/200 second shutter speed yields blurry photos when the subjects are moving.    

Hey guys, I'm with you.  I've been working on this action photography situation for a few years because I was sick of taking and seeing mushy indoor martial arts pictures.  The proof is in the Gallery starting with June 2004.  If it were possible to use less/zero flash or a compact camera and deliver great pictures,  I'd do it.

My brother Indris is there to photograph the event.  If you want any kind of picture, just ask him, pose and run.   A lot of pictures don't end up in the Gallery, but all you have to do is email me for any and every "buddy shot".   Marc has control over the fight pictures, so you'll have to ask him for those.  It takes me days to sort through 1500 photos for the best 150-200 that represent the event, as well as color correction, cropping and other picture adjustments.  We're there to photograph the event and let it live on through images.

As for limiting photographers, we really don't want to do that.  The issue is that flashes pollute the video as well as the underground atmosphere.  Imagine watching an hour-long DVD movie with several thousand flashes, although at sporting events.   That is one reason why many prodcations limit the use of a flash.  The main reason to limit the number of photographers is to reduce that flood of flashes on the video.  If a lot of great photos were taken, then it would be worth it.  So far, next to zero have been submitted to the DB Gallery. Make sense ?  

-Gints

[Crafty_Dog]

I underline Baltic Dog's point about how few people bother to share their fotos with us.  I also underline his point that most of the pictures are of really low quality.

[Tom Stillman]

Sounds like a very serious issue. I think photos with your friends is a must but  I think one would also take great care to make sure O/P gets good clean footage for N/G show.  It's not like they get a second take. At least this time around,  I feel  still photo quality should take a back seat to video quality. JMHO

[Howling Dog]

Gints/Baltic dog, I can fully appreciate what your saying and also echo the sentitment of allowing OP/NG the ability to get good quality video. As I stated earlier I have no problem with a no photos of the fights rule.
I do however think its a major undertaking to try to provide for everyones personal photos.  How would you sort them, deleiver them and cover all the costs ect ect.
Certainly you won't follow me around and be my personal photographer let alone everyone else.
Like I said, all I'am really intrested in is the "family photo" type shots of fighters and elders ect. It will also be a great and possibly rare oppertunity to get all the elders together in one shot.
I'am thnakful that Guro Crafty is allowing personal cameras for this reason.
                                                                            Dog Tom

[sting]

Certainly you won't follow me around and be my personal photographer let alone everyone else.
Like I said, all I'am really intrested in is the "family photo" type shots of fighters and elders ect. It will also be a great and possibly rare oppertunity to get all the elders together in one shot.
I'am thnakful that Guro Crafty is allowing personal cameras for this reason.

Tom, you've summarized why it's important to have al of those cameras.  People take many great shots, and those should be allowed.  So, I'm not in any way trying to squelch the fun of ambience photos. 

 I'm just a broken record on the issue of the fight photos.  If there is a need to reduce the number of flashes during the fights, I think that it's reasonable to limit the number of fight photographers.  In any case, a flash covers a single video frame.  For the fight footage actually included in the show, it is possible to replace those single "flashed" frames by repeating the previous frame. 

See you at the Gathering.  Rog and Milt would have liked to fight you.

[Howling Dog]

Baltic Dog, Like wise, look forward to seeing you as well!! Milt said earlier that he probably wouldn't make it, does what your saying mean Rog won't make it either?
I will miss seeing them both, If be the case.
In a some what different vein concerning the photos.......I know that Guro Crafty has rights to all the fight photos ect. However I

[Howling Dog]

Baltic Dog, Like wise, look forward to seeing you as well!! Milt said earlier that he probably wouldn't make it, does what your saying mean Rog won't make it either?
I will miss seeing them both, If be the case.
In a some what different vein concerning the photos.......I know that Guro Crafty has rights to all the fight photos ect.
However I don't really have any good personal fight pics of myself, for the very reasons of camera, flash ect. that we have been talking about, and would be intrested in doing whatever it may take to get some......provided they are NOT of me getting my head cracked
You guys do a really good job as is eveidence in the gathering galleries, is there anyway to get personal fight pics?
                                                             Tom

[sting]

Hey Tom,

Talk to Crafty about this.  On my end, I've only processed those that appear in the Gallery, so you wouldn't be getting photos that are as crisp and clean as those.

Honestly, the shots that are in the Gallery are the cherry picked shots of the Gathering.   Indris takes about 1500 photos.  About a third are very similar, as he's using a camera that does 8 frames/second, so we just pick the best.  Another third are out of focus, "ass shots"/back shots or just plain ol' uninteresting.  Then, the real sorting work is to reduce 500-600 decent shots  to a better set of a manageable 150-200 shots that cover each fight.  This takes days and lots of patience.  Some fights are just more interesting than others, so you'll see the occasional string of good photos from those.  Some great action is lost when the video/photographer cross over, or while the photographer moves to another position for a better view.  Since the photographer tries not to obscure the audience, a lot of action that looks good to the audience will be missed.

I do have some biases during the sorting, such as *against* rubber or plastic knives (especially black) , *for* good stick fighting action, *for* unmasked fighting and *for* moves that others do not do.  Such choices are necessary for a good gallery.

[peregrine]

On a differing note, how about doing the electric knives with subdued light?
not sure if this is ok with vid production and photos, but it sure would be fun.

[Sheep Dog]

Not sure about anyone else but I have never noticed the flash in any of my fights, nor have I noticed the audience for that matter

What have noticed and appreciated is the few hardworking people who take high quality pics and submit them to Marc and Cindy.

C-Sheepdog

[Kaju Dog]

This is hard for me to write...  But it must be done.  Some good and some bad news. 

Good:  I checked into my new comand here in Lemoore, CA.  and will be assigned to the Physical Therapy section to work and learn more about PT.

BAD:  Due to being the new kid on the block and also due to my current finances, I regret to have to withdraw myself from the list of fighters. 

I will be there in spirit and wish you all the very best.  I have tried to think of ways to get there and make it happen, just running out of time and ideas. 


Im not going to put my neck out there again and get my hopes up, but I will make it happen one day.  November  
The move just took too much $$ out of us and I am in no position to push my luck at work right now.  Im getting reimbersed for some of the move expense but its gonna be a day late and a dollar short. 

Best of Luck to everyone...

"Survive the Day" a KajuPit moto

[Crafty_Dog]

Dean:

Big Bummer   The Adventure continues!

All:

Now that we have three Shocknives, I'm looking at all knife fights using them.    Thoughts?

Crafty Dog

[Scotty Dog]

Dean -

Sorry to hear it man, was looking forward to meeting you

Guro C -

I'm all for it  .........

[sting]

Now that we have three Shocknives, I'm looking at all knife fights using them.    Thoughts?

I really like the idea of the Shocknives.  Although I'm game for trying them, are they that much better than shiny aluminum knives?  I'm all for eliminating the use of the rubber, wood and plastic knives, and I echo the sentiment that the knife fights are kinda of a warm-up fight in which no fighter should be injured such that he can't do other bouts.   Does the tip/point of the Shocknife deliver a decent shock?  From this photo, the shock knife looks like a plastic knife :

http://dogbrothers.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=288

While I've seen some panicked writhing from the shocks, overall, they look like plastic knife fights.  Somehow, that just doesn't look deadly.   I'd prefer a mix of polished aluminum and Shocknives.

[Dog Robertlk808]

Shocknives?? Sweeet, Im interested.

[maija]

I thought the idea of the shocknives was to make the knife fights more 'realistic'? Having not experienced them, i don't know if they work, but if they work better than the aluminum blades then i'm all for them. What they look like is secondary isn't it? I'm all for an added incentive to respect the blade for it's edge aswell as it's tip....and honestly just because the polished aluminum is shiny, it's still klunky, and still looks like a blunt instrument to me.

[Crafty_Dog]

I'm thinking when people see and here the electricity crackling    that behavior will get more realistic 

[Tom Stillman]

Shock knifes are good as long as they stop the bulldozery of some of the fighters that like to clinch. Was looking forward to trying "swing knife" (maybe another time?)   It has been my experience that some people naturally go to a kicking defence/disarm when faced with a shock knife. The knowledge that a rubber shoe will spare them the discomfort of shock changes there game. Ye be warned!

[Dog Pound]

Crafty

What instilled respect for the shockknife (from the beginning) was when you walked around and zapped us with the shockknife.  Something happens deep in your brain and you treat the shockknife like a knife.

I like the idea of using the shockknife for all knife fights (remember to bring a lot of batteries).

************************************

On a side note, I understand the photogenics of shiny aluminum training blades, but I disagree with eliminating the use of the rubber, wood and plastic knives.  I fact, I encourage the use of the Sharky plastic sparring knives.

I know people spend good money on replica aluminum training blades.  They are very pretty, but IMHO they are training blades not sparring knives.  Those replica aluminum blades are great for training disarms and working other knife technics, but they are pretty damn pointy to be used in full speed sparring (the same can be said for many wooden knives).

If people want to agree to spar with nice photogenic (and pointy) aluminum training blades, ... enjoy.  As for me, (if the shockknives are not available for some reason) I'm knife fighting with a Sharky and bringing an extra for my opponent.

[Scotty Dog]

Mrs Hig & I leave for the airport in about 9-10 hours. I'm going to try for a bit of a Kip, but I've got that Xmas-eve feeling

See everyone soon 

[maija]

I'll bring a pair of my plastic blades also. Sonny designed them so they look quite 'mean'! Silver coloured blade and brown handle. They don't solve the 'respect for blade' issue, but they won't draw blood or break your hand either.
...and for the kick/disarm guys...... i guess i'll just have to aim for the ankle bone or the achilles tendon instead !

[sting]

A few opinions on aluminum blades.

As Corey points out, most metal training blades are pointy, so the choice of the model is important.  For longer blades, I've found that a point is less of an issue than for shorter blades, mostly due to increased difficulty of keeping a longer blade stable on a thrust.  The real "killers" have turned out to be some extra pointy  Spyderco replicas. Ouch !  Just put one in the hands of a first timer, and you'll have a chance of feeling a full force #3 thrust.  Consequently, on request, Bob Burgee made me some great mirror-polished short blades with a near semicircle in place of a point.  In generla, aluminum blades are completely unsuitable for sparring unless you have a full face mask, such as a fencing mask.  The grill spacing of the WEKAF helmet won't stop an Edges2 Fighter or other long/thin blades from reaching the face, and particularly, the eye.

The appearance of the sparring blade, I believe, is an important component of the experience.  We don't pick up a hair brush for blade practice, so realistic construction is obviously important.  There is something scary about the flash of metal, and that fear is important to the sparring experience.  I think that fear of metal is also expressed by choosing plastic.  Sharkees are great for regular practice as they are simply safer and cleaner than aluminum.  Nonetheless, I think the aluminum models (I like the Edges2 Fighter) help with edge awareness, and the narrow/flat construction offers better feedback that will help avoid the "blade smacking".   I've seen a lot of blade sparring , and it's common to see someone holding the aluminum training blade backwards, with the unground edge used to make cuts.  If a reflective plastic process existed that could compete with the cost of a grey plastic, more practice blades would be made this way.  Granted, there are some training blades that are made to appear as if they are not real.

The Gathering is a showcase for weapons fighting, and thus we also have a responsibility to properly communicate the expernience over photos and video.  The uninitiated can easily recognize the power of the stick.  The rubber or plastic knives don't do a good job of communicating the experience over video.  "When I saw that black piece of rubber coming at me, I peed in my pants."  If the audience is unable to recognize or even see the knife, then it will be difficult to communicate our real contact fighting.   Aluminum blades look real on video, and both the fighter and viewer experiences are a bit more genuine.

[sting]

I'm thinking when people see and here the electricity crackling    that behavior will get more realistic 

Yes, those blades make a great sound.  I think they're pretty good and only wish they were a color other than black so it would be easier to see them.  The black plastic gets lost amongst the black mats and generally black attire.

What do you think about exposing more skin for shocking purposes , such as ditching the shirts ?  I'm not talking about fighting in Speedos.

[Dog Robertlk808]

Not that I am trying to second guess anyone since this will be my first time but do you think the lighting had anything to do with the visual perception of the shocknife?  I was watching this clip http://www.setcan.com/video/dogbrothers_lg.wmv and as they got in the corner it appeared it was kind of dark but since there will be a lighting and camera crew perhaps it will be a little different.

[Tom Stillman]

If that doesn't warm you up for a day of stick fighting, nothing will! 

[Kase]

I don't see why metalic tape (the kind used for ac work...I think) couldn't be used on the non-conductive sides of the knife. This now temporarily altered blade would offer a little more realism and allow everyone else to follow the flow of the blades.  After your done peal off the tape and use a plastic-safe gunk remover to remove any tape residue.

[Point Dog]

I don't see why metalic tape (the kind used for ac work...I think) couldn't be used on the non-conductive sides of the knife. This now temporarily altered blade would offer a little more realism and allow everyone else to follow the flow of the blades.  After your done peal off the tape and use a plastic-safe gunk remover to remove any tape residue.

You'd be taking the knife outside of it's designed function.  You run the risk of either shorting the knife out, or reducing the voltage density and reducing the level of shock the fighters received.  Also, the adhesive of the tape may interfere with the conductivity into the tape.

Sorry, I'm an Engineer 

[ryangruhn]

Has Jeff Qual approved the use of Shockknife on Shocknife?  Will it short the knife out in any way?

Gints,
  I feel the shocknives rather well through a shirt.  So much so that I couldn't tell the difference.  I think no gloves should be mandatory.  I didn't wear any when I did Shocknife vs. EH or cattle prod vs. cattle prod and I strongly advise not using them (Tom, I can still remember where you hit me with the cattle prod on the left hand!).

Gruhn

[Crafty_Dog]

Jeff sent us an additional pair of S-knives for the explicit purpose of our using them at this Gathering.

Also, I'd like to remind people to think in terms of 2x2 knife fights, stick vs. knife, etc.   Who will be fighting double stick?  Haven't seen any mention of staff fights , , ,

[ryangruhn]

Crafty,
  I guess what I was wondering is if it will hurt the knives (short them out) at all if they were to shock each-other (knife shocking knife).

Gruhn

[Tom Stillman]

I may have a bull whip fight set up toward the end of the day so I will probably pass on staff fight this go round.   BTW, Dog Hig  and I are planning a double nunchaku vs double sticks!  Also thinking: Swing knife vs stick?  

[Crafty_Dog]

I know C-Cyborg has a whip too , , , 

I like swing knife vs. stick 

[Kase]

I don't see why metalic tape (the kind used for ac work...I think) couldn't be used on the non-conductive sides of the knife. This now temporarily altered blade would offer a little more realism and allow everyone else to follow the flow of the blades.  After your done peal off the tape and use a plastic-safe gunk remover to remove any tape residue.

You'd be taking the knife outside of it's designed function.  You run the risk of either shorting the knife out, or reducing the voltage density and reducing the level of shock the fighters received.  Also, the adhesive of the tape may interfere with the conductivity into the tape.

Sorry, I'm an Engineer 

Damn engineers     Does anyone know a good substitute for wrestling shoes? I'm not accustomed to working on mats (so not sure what constitutes "mat safe") and currently am having a hell of a time finding wrestling shoes.

[Tom Stillman]

I know C-Cyborg has a whip too , , , 

 I am pondering the idea of going stick + nunchaku against C-Cyborg (bull whip)  I think I have a plan.   

[Crafty_Dog]

Concerning shoes:

Wrestling shoes will be best, but "martial arts shoes" and mat friendly sneakers will be OK.  Please use your best judgement.

[sting]

  I feel the shocknives rather well through a shirt.  So much so that I couldn't tell the difference.  I think no gloves should be mandatory.  I didn't wear any when I did Shocknife vs. EH or cattle prod vs. cattle prod and I strongly advise not using them (Tom, I can still remember where you hit me with the cattle prod on the left hand!).

Gruhn

Ryan, that's good to know about the conductivity through the clothing.  Your no gloves rule is a good idea, and I liked that you did that.  but as we all know, those fencing masks are not knuckle friendly.  Tape around some knuckles is a fine  yet incomplete remedy. it would suck that someone's fights were cut short by a bad finger cut.   One of my recent gatherings (June 2006) was cut short from a gash on the fingers from a tooth .  I decided to do that stick fight without any gloves, but that is not a great idea for the first fight.

Gints