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A Father's Question

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Crafty_Dog:
Woof All:

My son has just started third grade and amongst the paperwork provided is a Parent-Student handbook.  Amongst the many areas for rules and regulations are:

Racial/Ethnic Sensitivity
Controlled Substances
Weapons
Sexual Harassment

Most of these rules are quite sensible, but some have overtones of PC Nannyism. (In other areas such as Playground Rules, the Nanny State is on a full rampage)

The reason I am posting here concerns the page "Student Behavior/Discipline Procedures".  In relevant part it reads as follows:

"Although positive reinforcement and modeling are our primary tools regarding student behavior, there are times when students need to understand that there are consequences for their actions. , , ,
"Students will usually be warned , , , on the first offense.  Warnings will not be given regarding fighting, theft, destruction of property, and defiance.  On these offenses a consequence will normally be issued on the first offense and will progress on succeeding offenses.
", , ,
"IN SITUATIONS THAT INVOLVE FIGHTING-- ALL STUDENTS WHO PARTICIPATE MAY RECEIVE CONSEQUENCES NO MATTER WHO STARTED IT. Self-defense is not an excuse to engage in a fight.  Students who feel compelled to fight due to harassment by another student must report the situation to one of the school's authorities.  The situation will then be mediated in a civilized manner.  PARENTS MUST NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR CHILDREN TO FIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.  This teaches children that when a problem cannot be resolved, it is OK to use physical force rather than reason, debate, discussion, mediation, etc. NO FORM OF FIGHTING WILL BE TOLERATED AT BERYL HEIGHTS FOR ANY REASON.
"Students many be recommended for expulsion from school to the governing board for continuation of offenses listed above and WILL BE RECOMMENDED FOR EXPULSION for possession of weapons or replica of weapons or narcotics or any controlled substance on the first offense.
", , , , A district policy has been established regarding all suspensions that include (sic) due process.

The part that triggers my posting here is this: "Self-defense is not an excuse to engage in a fight. , , ,PARENTS MUST NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR CHILDREN TO FIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES".

Question Presented:  As a father, how do I respond?  What do I tell my son?

Karsk:
Hiyas Crafty,

My sons are 25 and 22.

I used to be a school teacher in one of my past lives.  I think that the kind of policy that you cite here is pretty typical of the policies in a lot of places.  But bullying still happens.  Kids still get chewed up.  Sometimes kids have to defend themselves because if they don't they face a life of ridicule and pressure from the jackals. 

I am all for a pleasant school experience. It would be nice if kids could get together and play nice.  But kids are often faced with terrible things in the imperfect systems that we have.

By being an active parent in the school you can do amazing things.  I witnessed the effects of intense direct strong parents.  Nothing puckers school districts up more than savvy parents who are ornery and who know how to fight at a variety of levels.  When my kids faced potential difficulties... I made sure that the school knew I was an active parent.  Active in the Alpha male of my  household sort of way.

I figured that no one was going to look out for my"pups" better than me.  On a pretense of one thing or another I would go talk to the principal and would convey somehow that I had fire in my eyes...that I was a live one.  I said things like.  "I see that you have a policy on self defense.  If you are insisting on preventing children from fighting back as a protocol then I expect that you WILL be able to adequately defend my children from bullying, derision and anything else that might make a kid miserable.  If you are failing in this what specific steps are you suggesting that I take as a conscientious parent who absolutely WILL NOT TOLERATE (eyes locked:feral look in eye) my kids being chewed up by their school experience. "  Then I would plant myself in the principals office for far too long and continue the discussion...repeating myself several times until I got answers.  My intention was to make sure that they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they did not want ME back there pissed off.  I also wanted to know exactly what their process was.   I planned on making sure that my kids followed the rules to the letter ...up to a point.  . If it failed after the boys tried that policy then they would have a fight on their hands to justify expulsion if my kids did fight back.

I think that I was creating conditions favorable for protecting my sons by doing this.   Making "fortifications"  for my kids.... making the school more sensitive to my kids needs had the affect of buttressing them better against potential problems.

I would also become more reasonable with the principal after I made my point. I wanted this guy to be my ally eventually.  I wanted him to know that I am a very reasonable guy but that I would cause major difficulties if my kids were not protected by their policy.  Several times I ended up with the principal confessing in private that he thought such ideas were stupid. This happened with my stepson most recently.  He had his jacket ripped in two by two idiots. They took it from him in the school yard.   When I arrived at the school one of the kids dads was standing over my stepson querying him about what he did to provoke those kids.  He took one look at me and backed into the wall. He was not acting honorably and he knew it.  (That issue was resolved peacefully.  thats fine)

My kids have all had to fight.  I told them that they were to try to obey the rules.  They should do the tings that the school system laid out.  And call me immediately if there was a real problem.  I prepared myself to drop whatever I was doing and be at their school raising hell in minutes. (Small town).  I told the boys about timing and distancing and taught them that staying away from trouble was long range self defense because they should be able to sense trouble and that they were to practice it.  I taught them about the danger of groups. That a gang of kids could turn on you and be much more dangerous.  But at that age sometimes walloping the leader is what it takes to change the way a group of kids looks at you.

I told them what my dad told me.  "Stay out of fights if you can.  But if you have to fight...hit em hard right in the nose as hard as you can. Throws work well too as impressive awe inducing responses.   And then get away and call me ASAP."  I also told them that it was moral to stop the instant that they could see that they had knocked the spirit out of the enemy.  That if they continued beyond what was needed then they would be at fault.  Both the boys learned that there is such a thing as a presentation that is vulnerable to being picked on.  They have learned not to present themselves in that way.

My oldest son had a bunch of kids surround him.  He tried all the things that policy required plus he just didn't want to fight.  Finally he picked one of them up and shoved him onto the top of a locker.   My other son had a guy try to clock him from behind.  He grabbed him and threw him hard.  Nothing ever came of the confrontations as far as the school was concerned.  In both cases my kids came home and told me exactly what happened immediately.  I was prepared to defend them if need be.

Lots of times such things happen AWAY from the eyes of teachers.  At the end of the day there is a time when you have to be willing to stop people from hurting you.  Where I grew up, I had to fight as well. I was lucky that my fights were not crazy.  Nothing lethal.  Back then there were rules of engagement.

Now I don't know about places like LA in this day and age.  Maybe the way kids fight is so harsh that the schools are scared of kids getting killed.  But even then, at some point no matter who you are you have to do something to protect yourself.

Good luck!


Karsk

Maxx:
What a question and it's very easy to answer..I just turned 34 and I am the father of two awesome Kids. I have a 11 year old son and a soon to be this november a 2 year old daughter..And I had this talk with my Son and will have it with my Daughter..I told my son, I don't care what the school says..Someone tried to hurt you..You put them down..Training your son not to defend himself will make for a fine older Adult who just lets people walk all over him and then when it comes time for him to have a family and someone comes to hurt them...His family will suffer because he does not know how to step up...

I give my son tools..I teach him things from Kali,Silat, BJJ, Kenjutsu and Aikido..I don't however show him the things that can ruin anthoer young boys life..I teach him tools for him to help him defend himself Whereever the attack comes from..Be it a play ground fight or a Child molesting asshole or worse..I try to give him things that will help him..When he gets older and can understand what "Is going to far" I will show him the rest..

I will not allow my Family to be one of these "New Age Males" that belive the cops are there to help you and they magically show up out of thin air to help you..BS!

I also don't live in the fantasy world and ignore the fact that more and more kids and taking weapons to school or Guns and making everyone pay for their messed up heads..

If someone attacks my Son and he puts them down..And the school gives me shit..I am getting a lawyer..Thats the bottom line..And nobody is gonna make you pay or your son pay because someone attacked him and he put them down...

And for my Daughter..Well....That's Daddy's girl..I don't think I need to tell anyone here who is a father who has a Daughter what would happen to the fella who did not take no as a answer.

Tom Stillman:
I think your son will be more concerned about breaking your rules rather than the schools rules.  As long as he is clear how you feel about it I think he will be more able to decide for himself how to handle the situation. As far as what the correct decision is, I would say follow your gut feeling.   Also: Remember many kid's now a day's have poor value systems and small scuffles can escalate into a more dangerous situation. When I lived in Redding.California my step son had to change schools at age 14 due to death threats from a violent Asian gang.  Learning to talk your way out of trouble can be most valuable. Being agreable and non aggressive, kind of like a dog bowing down to the alpha male. Sometimes thats all it takes. (and a big gulp of pride)   Personally,  I teach my 5 yr old girl to kick ass when necessary and only when necessary. As previously mentioned, strong advocation sounds like a good way to go. Going into the school office and stirring things up a bit just might put the staff on higher alert to avoid a potentially ugly situation beetween parent and school.  You being a lawyer, I'm sure you are no stranger to stirring things up and convincing them to see things your way...   What ever happened to the good old day's when you get into a school yard fight and the teacher breaks it up, slaps you on the hand and sends you back to class and you might even start building a friendship with the the person you were fighting with.   :-(     DT

thai70:
I was a school teacher for seven years here in Hawaii.  They try to have the zero tolerance about bullying, but the system is easily manipulated.  I can only speak for what I have witnessed at one middle school.  Principals are overworked and don't spend much time on bullying.  It is tough to prove. 
As far as fighting, they generally suspend everybody, but if a parent chooses to appeal the suspension, the kid is allowed back into school until the case is decided.  This goes for any suspension here.  A kid can bring a knife to school (which has happened, often) and they will be suspended, but if they appeal, they are right back in school.  I feel safer already.
One course of action is to have the aggressor kid arrested.  If your kid gets hassled, instruct them to say out loud so others can hear, "I don't want to fight you."  Then If the other kid persists, your kid can whoop ass, call the cops, say your kid was the victim and claim self defense.
The best way to deal with principals who don't do what you want is (and God is going to strike me down for saying this) is to mention either one of two words...
"lawsuit" or "Lawyer"  Principals usually wet their pants at those words.
However, the best thing I've found to work is to be involved, and communicate with the school admin and teachers.  Teachers will usually take the time to talk to you, admin may not.  Mention the kids who are bullying and see if anything gets done.  You get more flys with honey than with piss.

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