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Author Topic: More or less technical?  (Read 4255 times)
cfr
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« on: October 16, 2007, 03:07:33 PM »

First and foremost, howdy all. You guys are impressive, and an asset to martial arts of any style. Anyways, I want to add some FMA to empty hand stuff I've been doing. I have two options:

Instructor 1) I currently do MMA with him (though neither of us ever compete, or ever will for that matter). He has done some FMA in the past, but found it overly complicated when it didn't need to be. He also found that most of what he learned, he couldn't apply in sparring. Coming from an MMA mindset, he stripped out much of it, and concentrates on the basic strikes, two man drills,  and sparring. This sparring is NOT to the level that you folks are at, but it is against a resisting opponent just the same. No "leave your arm out and don't move while I do my 10 techniques" from this instructor.

Instructor 2) I think just the opposite of number 1. I haven't met him yet, only emailed back and forth. Seems pretty cool. However, when asked about sparring his response was something along the lines of "my system is for combat not sparring". He said he does spar, but very rarely. I have no reason to doubt he knows what he's doing. I get the impression his system is very "technical", and focuses on more intricate techs. He may come to train with instructor 1 and I this Saturday, so I'll know more then. I live outside Phoenix, so coming to your classes on a regular basis is obviously out. So my questions (finally):

1) I have no doubt I will get bored quickly if I hardly ever spar, which definately lends to my training with number 1 (plus I've already been with him for a while). However, is there a lot that can be missed in FMA by primarily training only things which can be applied in sparring?

2) Are intricate techniques (more complicated) something you guys try to stay away from, or are drawn too? From watching your sparring clips I'd say probably not, but I don't see whats going on in your normal classes, hence the question.
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rio
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2007, 05:19:39 PM »

my judo coach( actually my older brother) told me "you can go train with whoever you want to . . . when you've learned everything i have to teach."  and then still didn't let me train at other gyms until i was at least an early brown belt.

so have you learned everything one instructor can teach you?... and if instructor # 2 doesn't spar/ randori to you're level, can you actually use the information he teachs in YOUR style. will it be as effective as he proposes it would, in an actual real life situation.

i think this is the base concept of Crafty's/ DBMA "blending of techniques." you'll learn really fast what works and what doesn't when you get hit in the face with a stick. and then what works for others, might not work for you. just my thoughts. hope they help.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2007, 09:14:52 AM »

Woof CFR:

Great question-- which I understand to be the application of FMA (what we call Kali) to MMA.  Have you seen the thread titled "Kali Tudo" in this forum?  If not, please give it a read, especially the article which begins the thread.

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 05:11:12 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
cfr
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2007, 04:48:09 PM »

Awesome, thanks!
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Dog Pound
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2007, 07:04:20 PM »

CFR
Quote
is there a lot that can be missed in FMA by primarily training only things which can be applied in sparring?

This hits on a real frustration of mine.  Techniques are a recording system for movements.  They can become so institutionalized that the context is lost (your hand must be placed in just this way ... WHY?) or they are so systemized that no useful muscle memory is being trained (5 different steps for 12 different disarms).

My answer to your question is, "Yes."  I try and exercise patience when learning techniques that I initially don't think will work at full speed because I hope to find something in the movement to add to my tool box.  I remember learning a disarm and thinking "This *&!@#@ move will never work," but then I started throwing an elbow into the guy's chest on my way in and the move worked beautifully.
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Maxx
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2007, 11:01:01 AM »

CFR
Quote
is there a lot that can be missed in FMA by primarily training only things which can be applied in sparring?

This hits on a real frustration of mine.  Techniques are a recording system for movements.  They can become so institutionalized that the context is lost (your hand must be placed in just this way ... WHY?) or they are so systemized that no useful muscle memory is being trained (5 different steps for 12 different disarms).

My answer to your question is, "Yes."  I try and exercise patience when learning techniques that I initially don't think will work at full speed because I hope to find something in the movement to add to my tool box.  I remember learning a disarm and thinking "This *&!@#@ move will never work," but then I started throwing an elbow into the guy's chest on my way in and the move worked beautifully.


PREACH!
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2007, 06:42:42 PM »

Quote
is there a lot that can be missed in FMA by primarily training only things which can be applied in sparring?

The tippy tap drill thread is a pretty good read too.
http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1186.0

There are times where in the heat of sparring, things from Hubud or other drills that just come into play without any thought.  Stick happens.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 06:46:23 PM by Robertlk808 » Logged

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cfr
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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2007, 09:49:30 PM »

Thanks to all. I read the suggested threads and they were both informative. It would appear as though instructor 2 is going to start training with instructor 1 and I, and we will blend it all up and see how it shakes out. Very different schools of thought/ training styles, so we'll see.


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Tom Stillman
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 04:54:08 PM »

I feel many teachers, teach more structured techniques with the idea that it can be expanded upon later by the student.. Sort of a jumping off point in the right direction.  DT
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cfr
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 10:12:03 PM »

Not that it matters much now as Im just going to see what happens training with both instructors, but I think if I was to ask a question like this again it would be slightly modified.

My hang up, with any martial art (not just this one instructor) is to spend too much time working with a totally non resistant opponent. To spend a good portion of training with

1) You throw a number 1 (for example).
2) I block.
3) You leave your arm out there while I do my 20 or so techs.

This is a debate all the time in non FMA forums, so I thought I'd see what your guys take on it is (though I missed the mark by quite a ways). We trained this way a lot, but very rarely sparred, in a school I used to go too. I then switched schools, and got my ass kicked constantly in sparring. Pulling off a tech when someone leaves their arm in the air is not tough. As mentioned Im a newbie, and my thinking may change on this topic over time. The "two man drills" (that may not be what their called, "heaven 6" for example) make sense to me as we are both practicing.

I have the unique opportunity of being able to train with both schools of thought at the same time, so I'd be a fool to not jump on it. I am definately open to learning what I can where I can at this point, so in this situation theres no way I can lose.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 10:19:46 PM by cfr » Logged
Howling Dog
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2007, 07:58:44 AM »

Cfr, Heres your quote:
Quote
We trained this way a lot, but very rarely sparred, in a school I used to go too. I then switched schools, and got my ass kicked constantly in sparring.

My thought is that the reason you got your Butt kicked constantly is NOT, because you did the self defense techs. but the fact that you "very rarley sparred"
You had not trained for that.

I think the self defense techs. have some merit in that they train your mind and muscle memory should you see a situation (whatever it maybe) your body has the idea ingrained on how to react to it.

I think the key thing here is "training/ and balance"
Sounds like your on the right track......maybe next time you spar try to pull of a learned tech. or at least part of it....you maybe suprised.
Remember also though, your sparring with other trained fighters.
Most street thugs don't train and rely soley on animal agression........
                                                           TG
                                         
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Howling Dog
cfr
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2007, 08:10:58 AM »


My thought is that the reason you got your Butt kicked constantly is NOT, because you did the self defense techs. but the fact that you "very rarley sparred"
You had not trained for that.


Fair enough, entirely possible I suppose.
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maija
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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2007, 06:55:29 PM »

IMHO there is a huge gap in the majority of martial systems between learning techniques and fighting. Some never even progress to realistic application at all.
There's been some comments on other threads about the worthiness of these "more complicated" or perhaps "traditional" parts of systems that don't seem overly practical in a "real" context, but I think that all knowledge that has been passed down to us is worth at least exploring.
The BIG question is how to get to where you need to be for it to be applicable?
Karsk writes about the concept of 'ma' in the Japanese arts which carries this feeling of being in the right place at the right time .... obviously being in the right place at the wrong time or the wrong place at the right time are not desirable smiley
So.... How do you enter? How do you keep your power contained and your feet underneath you? What happens if something unexpected happens, can you adapt? How do you sustain as little damage as possible (especially with bladed weapons)? How do you learn to recognize and exploit your opponent's weaknesses? How do you exit?
Answer these questions ( I'm sure these guys can add a few more!) and the technical stuff is the frosting on the cake.

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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2007, 07:48:38 PM »

"So.... How do you enter? How do you keep your power contained and your feet underneath you?"

EXACTLY SO Maija.

In the context of DBMA, this material is taught using our footwork matrix, "The 7 Ranges and Triangle from the Third Dimension" theory.  Given our roots, our material has more emphasis on stick than blade.

What can you tell us about how Corto Cadena goes about it?
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maija
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2007, 07:32:31 PM »

.....Well, the short answer, from a blade perspective is to create a situation where your opponent is busy striking or blocking something that isn't there, whilst you are striking them and exiting somewhere else...!
How do you make this happen? Sonny would say "learn to tell a lie"!!
If, like the maestro, you are a master of deception, you can pull this off, however there are stages of practice that lead to this.
Honestly it all starts with the footwork, which in our system is the "pendulum". Then it's all about learning range, angle and timing using the random flow practice which is at the core of Sonny's "training way" , also a 360 degree, movement based practice.
Constantly learning to change and adapt in motion is great practice for 'keeping your feet under you', and learning to keep your options open for as long as possible i.e working on evasion instead of wasting the weapon on a block and only committing to a strike when a target is good, helps keep your power contained.
Above all this is training the eyes and the mind to not freeze in time so you always have somewhere to "go" next, and that is one meaning of "kadena".......
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It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first.
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Karsk
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2007, 05:49:51 PM »


1.  Somewhere in the past there was something that actually worked that was what caused people to care enough to systematize in the first place.  Somebody somewhere did something that was really cool.

2.  That person had to be clever enough as a teacher or demonstrator to portray that understanding in a way that made people get excited about it.  This means that there were other things that may have worked but that didn't get into a system.

3.  As soon as the first thoughts were placed down in some transmittable form, people started interpreting the ideas.  In a way, the degree of modification can be measured or at least discussed.

The term entropy describes the tendency to move towards disorder.  There is a kind of entropy in understanding that can occur over time.  Some ideas have a half life of understanding that is long. Those sorts of ideas tend to be fundamental or basic.  Perhaps an example of this deep fundamental is a consideration of body alignment.   Other ideas have a short half life.  An example of such an idea is "the application of this movement is...". 

4.  Sometimes there was a cultural or situational context to fighting systems that may have had an influence on what was considered appropriate, what worked, and what was acceptable. We KNOW that is the case.  Compare WW1 to WW2 tactically.

5.  Sometimes understanding is lost and the system has become rigid so it cannot recapture that understanding.  So things get weird.

One thought that seems to permeate this thread is that its a worthy endeavor to try to figure out the deeper meanings and applications of the standardized approached that have evolved.   In a way its trying to find the original intent and context in addition to innovating based on the hints you get along the way.


Take Japanese martial arts for example.  A lot of Japanese martial arts emphasize a very specific kind of extensiveness.  They de-emphasize feinting and close circular movements and emphasize seeing the opening and responding with a singular effective response.  They often begin at range and include an entry.   I cannot really think of any Japanese martial art that doesn't have this influence.  Even Judo and ju jutsu, while grappling arts and very circular, are derived from what to do when you are in close after a charge.  So there is a premium placed on finding the opening and utilizing it rather than generating openings by feinting. This is a generalization and there are exceptions but mostly I think its a valid thing to say.

I tend to think that this approach is very situational and it came form fighting in armor on the battlefield under certain conditions.  There is always the problem with what happens if I don't get the guy with my kill shot.  What happens if he doesn't go down.

There is a whole concept in japanese martial arts called "irimi".  It means "getting in".   It compliments fighting in range because it helps you get in.  Practices at range emphasize what to do once you are there.

I think that people studying this do not do enough reality checks and that is where the work has to occur to keep it current.  But there seems to be something really valuable here as a long lasting fundamental concept. 



Cheers,

Karsk


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cfr
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2007, 10:05:37 PM »

It would appear as though my perceptions were a bit out in left field. I have now trained with this guy a couple times, and asked about his sparring experience. He described his past experience as:

1) No protection. Very light sticks for sparring, but done with no headgear, gloves, etc. Obviously hits to the head are done with control, and pretty minimal.

2) If a knuckle gets broke, tape it up and keep sparring.

3) If you cant hold your stick, tape it into your hand and keep sparring.

 shocked

He says he has toned it way down in recent years, for various reasons. Either way, I am really doubting he is from the "leave your arm out while I do my twenty cool techs" camp.
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cfr
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2008, 02:21:46 PM »

Greetings. Sorry for picking this old thread back up, but it seemed more appropriate than starting a new thread. I'll be the first to admit, my lack of learning and progressing in FMA since I first started this thread is purely my fault due to my lack of dedication to it. I'm having an extremely difficult time staying focused due to the "leave your arm out while I do all my techs" aspect of my training. I was referrred to the "Tippy Tap" thread once before, but am unclear if TT (and all the responses too it) is the same as leaving the arm out???

If not, could a couple more people please share the values of this with me?

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Jonobos
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2008, 08:57:09 PM »

Here is a clip from Matt Thornton that I think is very relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENJ8PBT9ePM

Martial Arts seem to get sketchy when you throw in the idea of "advanced technique." An armbar is an armbar, and a left hook is a left hook. What matters is how good you are at them, and that you have the timing down to pull them off. The guy that knows all the different ways to make the opening for angle #1 is the guy that is going to land it. It is still just angle 1 though... not anything really complicated about it Tongue  I think when talking about the martial arts the saying "keep it simple stupid" has a TON of merit... or as crafty says "its so easy it can't be martial arts!"

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