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rogt
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« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2010, 09:39:53 AM »

Crafty,

You saying the Hutaree militia is not "fascist" because they are "quite contrary" to a strong state is BS.  Would they not be perfectly happy with a "strong state" that forced their brand of fundamentalist Christianity on everybody?  Even leaving the Muslisms aside, to call the Democrats "fascist" for passing a completely weak health care reform bill (when ALL other industrialized nations have a much stronger form of it) while consciously avoiding the term for the Hutarees says that you guys pretty much consider only liberals even capable of fascism.  It's difficult to take such a discussion of "fascism" seriously.

Rog
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 10:07:51 AM by rogt » Logged
rogt
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« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2010, 09:56:39 AM »

GM,

I often hear Rush and others refer to Obama as "that boy king".  Obama is on the younger side in terms of US presidents' age, but he's hardly the youngest.  I think "boy king" term is a reference to when it was common for whites to address blacks as "boy".  Rush and these other clowns are no doubt well aware of the racist hostility no small number of their listeners have for Obama, but since it's not kosher to be seen too directly appealing to this, the coded speech will have to do.

Let's not forget the words of Republican god Lee Atwater regarding the infamous "Southern Strategy":

Quote
    Atwater: As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry Dent and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now [the new Southern Strategy of Ronald Reagan] doesn’t have to do that. All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he's campaigned on since 1964 and that's fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster.

    Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

    Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."[7]

Doug, Crafty, was it reasonable or accurate, in your opinions, for Glenn Beck to say (about Obama):

Quote
This president, I think, has exposed himself as a guy, over and over and over again, who has a deep-seated hatred for white people or the white culture.  I'm not saying he doesn't like white people, I'm saying he has a problem. He has a -- this guy is, I believe, a racist.
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G M
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« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2010, 10:24:05 AM »

Rog,

You kind of glossed over how "Clinton lied, people died", right? When do Al Gore and Slick Willy face war crimes prosecution, using your "not crazy" legal theory?

Rush used "boy king" and that's your smoking gun for a racist incitement for violence? Shall we compare and contrast with Obama's pastor of 20 years, his friend Bill Ayers, or the leader of the NOI that went to visit Moammar Kadaffi in Libya in 1984 with Obama's spiritual leader in tow? Remember Obama's "typical white person" quote? Remember Obama's rush to judgement on a Cambridge police officer while remaining agnostic on the motivations of the Ft. Hood jihadist?

Remember the last 8 years of leftist hatred aimed at President Bush? Lee Atwater is a republican god? In what fantasy world? Funny how you can immediately associate "boy king" with race, it never occurred to me. That says something, doesn't it.
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DougMacG
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« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2010, 10:50:12 AM »

"Doug, Crafty, was it reasonable or accurate, in your opinions, for Glenn Beck to say (about Obama):This president, I think, has exposed himself as a guy, over and over and over again, who has a deep-seated hatred for white people or the white culture.  I'm not saying he doesn't like white people, I'm saying he has a problem. He has a -- this guy is, I believe, a racist."

 - To me, yes.  I didn't like his referral to Grandma as a typical white person and references of that sort in his books, though he is entitled to that view.  Same for clinging to God, gays and guns, not expressly race but disdainful and condescending to a group he dislikes that happen to be white.  That was prior to his election.  Now he represents all of us and hopefully has shaken that off.

I hate race identification and race politics. I oppose Obama based on his policies.  So does Rush and Beck. It is crazy to think Rush would be more tolerant if Hillary had won, or Joe Biden!  You don't believe that.(?)  Or that Beck would simmer down if it was a white Ralph Nader bring Maoists and Marxists into the White House to help on economic policy and inch toward socialized medicine.  Rush's right hand man is black, his fill-in host is black.  His song the magic negro is a parody on a piece in the LA Times that no one else criticized. Harry Reid made the negro gaffe, same for Biden, also about Indians at 7-11. No career ending uproars there. I didn't hear the boy king nickname.  If so, I see that point, but also true that his party picked the youngest candidate with the least experience and opponents think he behaves like a king - or a religious figure.  He has much more often been called 'the Messiah'. Nothing racial there.

Barack Obama is half black and half white, Kansas I think.  He identifies himself as black. Where he has expressed pride in his white heritage?  Will he lead the charge to start a white history month in Kansas?  smiley
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rogt
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« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2010, 11:02:08 AM »

GM,

I also felt that the "birther" movement (heavily egged-on by the talk radio right-wingers) had a fairly racist component to it.  Again, they're not going to come right out and say "aren't you pissed off that a black guy is president?"  But if all you're doing is "simply asking the question" (over and over and very loudly) of whether the black president is *really* American, then you're appealing to racists without having to make any openly, blatantly racist statements.  Not all (or even most) conservatives are racist, but a significant chunk of them are and politicians and media personalities absolutely know it.

I take back my calling Lee Atwater "Republican god", since it would be incorrect to suggest most Republicans agree with him.  To his credit, near the end of his life he expressed deep regret for a lot of the nasty things he did as a political consultant.  It's unfortunate that his proteges who are still operating today haven't come to any such enlightenment.

But back to the subject of the thread, why are none of you willing to call the Hutarees "fascist"?  Or do you guys just want to call Obama and the Dems fascists and have tailored your definition of the term to apply solely to them (and Hitler, Mussolini, etc)?

Rog
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rogt
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« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2010, 11:12:56 AM »

Barack Obama is half black and half white, Kansas I think.  He identifies himself as black. Where he has expressed pride in his white heritage?

I'm not black myself, so I don't know what it's like to grow up (even partially) black in US society.  If you look black, you're 100% black as far as most people are concerned, regardless of your actual percentage.  I'm guessing you're asking the above question facetiously of course Smiley

As far as Obama being racist goes, come on.  People with a "deep-seated hatred" of people with a certain skin color were doing lynchings and behind-the-car draggings.  When Obama was a kid, that stuff was still happening and it was possible for white people to be (what would now be considered) blatantly racist in polite company.  Again, I imagine somebody who actually grew up black would see it differently than a white person.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 11:52:32 AM by rogt » Logged
DougMacG
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« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2010, 12:21:06 PM »

"If you look black, you're 100% black as far as most people are concerned, regardless of your actual percentage." - No.  The Majority leader of the senate disagrees.  Being "light skinned and with no Negro dialect" makes the difference.  smiley

Lynchings and car draggings? No. He grew up with every advantage most whites don't have, the best private schools growing up, plus Columbia University and Harvard Law School.  He was in Harvard law School and President of the Law Review either partly because of race or else it obviously didn't hurt. Now private schools for his kids. Hardly a lynching. If it was all for academic achievement, why not release college transcripts? Who paid for college and how did he get into the best ones? Harvard Law School with a 3.3 GPA?  It all reaks of special treatment, fine, but accompanied with thanklessness for it - as I see it. 
-----
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_were_Barack_Obama%27s_grades_in_college

What were Barack Obama's grades in college?
In: US Presidents, Barack Obama, Nobel Prize Winners
   
Barack Obama has not released transcripts for his grades from Occidental College, Columbia University and Harvard Law. He has also not released his SAT and LSAT scores. No explanation has been offered for not releasing them.

Per the Wall Street Journal September 11, 2008, "Obama's Lost Years," Obama graduated from Columbia University (to which he transferred after his first two years at Occidental College in California), with a degree in Political Science without honors, so had a GPA less than a 3.3.
------
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/02/AR2009010202325.html
Washington Post  Saturday, January 3, 2009

HONOLULU -- When President-elect  Barack Obama visited the lush campus of his old high school for a game of basketball in the waning days of his vacation this week, he returned to no ordinary Hawaiian school, but one with a rich history of teaching the island's elite and an array of distinctions: the nation's No. 1-ranked athletic program, the largest U.S. independent day school and the oldest west of the Mississippi River.
----
The Punahou School campus covers 76 acres at the edge of lush Manoa Valley. Students occupy 44 school buildings, including three libraries and learning centers; computer areas and language labs; an impressive physical education facility (that includes a gymnasium, 50-meter pool, Mondo track, playing fields, racquetball and tennis courts, and weight and training facilities); and art facilities that include jewelry, ceramics and glassblowing.

No record of lynchings.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2010, 02:28:43 PM »

Rog:

Too many points to address in my day, so for the moment I will refresh your memory with this:

"Liberal Fascism/Progressivism/Corporate Fascism is destroying  our country as we know it."

Please note "corporate fascism" as part of the mix.    I don't accept calling the Huts "fascist" because there is nothing in the record of which I am aware that indicates they are for the large coercive state you seem to favor or that they call for religious coercion.  Indeed, as best as I can tell their starting point is a desire to be left alone.

Concerning the new HC law-- IMHO it deliberately contains the seeds of destruction for the remainder of private sector health care insurance.  BO has already been campaigning for single payer a.k.a. nationalized/socialized medicine.
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G M
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« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2010, 04:17:15 PM »

GM,

I also felt that the "birther" movement (heavily egged-on by the talk radio right-wingers) had a fairly racist component to it. 

**Birtherism, in general is fueled by two non-racial elements:

1. A distrust of the MSM (and rightfully so).

2. The perception that Obama has no love for America, no attachment to this nation and it's ideals, again rightly so in my book.**



Again, they're not going to come right out and say "aren't you pissed off that a black guy is president?"  But if all you're doing is "simply asking the question" (over and over and very loudly) of whether the black president is *really* American, then you're appealing to racists without having to make any openly, blatantly racist statements.  Not all (or even most) conservatives are racist, but a significant chunk of them are and politicians and media personalities absolutely know it.

**The people that are actually pissed that a black guy is president need no code words. The people that are frightened/angered by Obama's ascent to power are concerned by the red shade of his ideology, not the amount of melanin in his skin.**

I take back my calling Lee Atwater "Republican god", since it would be incorrect to suggest most Republicans agree with him.  To his credit, near the end of his life he expressed deep regret for a lot of the nasty things he did as a political consultant.  It's unfortunate that his proteges who are still operating today haven't come to any such enlightenment.

But back to the subject of the thread, why are none of you willing to call the Hutarees "fascist"?  Or do you guys just want to call Obama and the Dems fascists and have tailored your definition of the term to apply solely to them (and Hitler, Mussolini, etc)?

Rog
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 04:41:50 PM by G M » Logged
DougMacG
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« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2010, 04:38:25 PM »

Crafty wrote: [New Health care law]"contains the seeds of destruction for the remainder of private sector health care insurance."

Obama came out of closed door sessions with supporters of single payer - one system heath care, including Dennis Kucinich,, with their vote switched from no to yes based on assurances made and a road map to the satisfaction of those representatives. 

Promised with openness and specifically with negotiations publicly broadcast.  Delivered with tricks, deals and back room buy-offs and sell-offs.  Invites the charge of ... illegitimacy. 

Obama still says you won't lose your current plan, but I will lose mine, please see HR-4872 Section 202(d)(2).  Be careful googling that.  I locked up my computer downloading and searching the various versions of the Multi-Kilo-Page 2010 Federal Simplification of Health Affordability Mandates (FED-SHAM-2010).  sad
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G M
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« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2010, 04:45:56 PM »

"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]

**Sounds more like Obama and his consolidation of power rather than a handful of midwestern loons awaiting a final apocalyptic battle with the anti-christ, yes?**
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G M
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« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2010, 05:08:18 PM »

**Rog, did you bother to parse out the various "clean and articulate" and "He'd be getting coffee for us" "negro dialect" quotes for racist motivations from democrats? No code words in these statements, are there?**


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/nader-obama-try.html

Nader -- who launched his 5th presidential campaign in February -- says the only thing different about Obama from previous Democratic presidential candidates is his race. "I haven't heard him have a strong crackdown on economic exploitation in the ghettos," Nader says. "Payday loans, predatory lending, asbestos, lead. What's keeping him from doing that? Is it because he wants to talk white? He doesn't want to appear like Jesse Jackson? We'll see all that play out in the next few months and if he gets elected afterwards."

____________________________


Sep 14, 2006
Top Racist Democrat Quotes

"You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent."
-Senator Joe Biden


Mahatma Gandhi "ran a gas station down in Saint Louis."

-Senator Hillary Clinton


Some junior high n*gger kicked Steve's ass while he was trying to help his brothers out; junior high or sophomore in high school. Whatever it was, Steve had the n*gger down. However it was, it was Steve's fault. He had the n*gger down, he let him up. The n*gger blindsided him."

-- Roger Clinton, the President's brother on audiotape


"You'd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, they'd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva."
-- Fritz Hollings (D, S.C.)

"Is you their black-haired answer-mammy who be smart? Does they like how you shine their shoes, Condoleezza? Or the way you wash and park the whitey's cars?"

-- Left-wing radio host Neil Rogers

Blacks and Hispanics are "too busy eating watermelons and tacos" to learn how to read and write." -- Mike Wallace, CBS News. Source: Newsmax


Black on Black

"In the days of slavery, there were those slaves who lived on the plantation and [there] were those slaves that lived in the house. You got the privilege of living in the house if you served the master ... exactly the way the master intended to have you serve him. Colin Powell's committed to come into the house of the master. When Colin Powell dares to suggest something other than what the master wants to hear, he will be turned back out to pasture."
-- Harry Belafonte

"Republicans bring out Colin Powell and J.C. Watts because they have no program, no policy. They have no love and no joy. They'd rather take pictures with black children than feed them." -- Donna Brazile, Al Gore's Campaign Manager for the 2000 election

(On Clarence Thomas) "A handkerchief-head, chicken-and-biscuit-eating Uncle Tom." -- Spike Lee

"He's married to a white woman. He wants to be white. He wants a colorless society. He has no ethnic pride. He doesn't want to be black."

-- California State Senator Diane Watson's on Ward Connerly's interracial marriage

Comments From The Past

"Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

-- Former Klansman and current US Senator Robert Byrd, a man who is referred to by many Democrats as the "conscience of the Senate", in a letter written in 1944, after he quit the KKK.


"I am a former kleagle of the Ku Klux Klan in Raleigh County and the adjoining counties of the state .... The Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia .... It is necessary that the order be promoted immediately and in every state of the Union. Will you please inform me as to the possibilities of rebuilding the Klan in the Realm of W. Va .... I hope that you will find it convenient to answer my letter in regards to future possibilities."

-- Former Klansman and current US Senator Robert Byrd, a man who is referred to by many Democrats as the "conscience of the Senate", in a letter written in 1946, after he quit the KKK.

"These laws [segregation] are still constitutional and I promise you that until they are removed from the ordinance books of Birmingham and the statute books of Alabama, they will be enforced in Birmingham to the utmost of my ability and by all lawful means."

-- Democrat Bull Connor (1957), Commissioner of Public Safety for Birmingham, Alabama


"I'll have those n*ggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years."

-- Lyndon B. Johnson to two governors on Air Force One according Ronald Kessler's Book, "Inside The White House"

(On New York) "K*ketown." -- Harry Truman in a personal letter


"I think one man is just as good as another so long as he's not a n*gger or a Chinaman. Uncle Will says that the Lord made a White man from dust, a nigger from mud, then He threw up what was left and it came down a Chinaman. He does hate Chinese and Japs. So do I. It is race prejudice, I guess. But I am strongly of the opinion Negroes ought to be in Africa, Yellow men in Asia and White men in Europe and America."

-Harry Truman (1911) in a letter to his future wife Bess


"There’s some people who’ve gone over the state and said, ‘Well, George Wallace has talked too strong about segregation.’ Now let me ask you this: how in the name of common sense can you be too strong about it? You’re either for it or you’re against it. There’s not any middle ground as I know of." -- Democratic Alabama Governor George Wallace (1959)

On Jews

"You f*cking Jew b@stard." -- Hillary Clinton to political operative Paul Fray. This was revealed in "State of a Union: Inside the Complex Marriage of Bill and Hillary Clinton" and has been verified by Paul Fray and three witnesses.

"The Jews don't like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He rose Germany up from the ashes." -- Louis Farrakhan (1984) who campaigned for congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2002

"Now that nation called Israel, never has had any peace in forty years and she will never have any peace because there can never be any peace structured on injustice, thievery, lying and deceit and using the name of God to shield your dirty religion under his holy and righteous name." -- Louis Farrakhan who campaigned for congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2002, 1984

'Hymies.' 'Hymietown.' -- Jesse Jackson's description of New York City while on the 1984 presidential campaign trail.

"Jews — that's J-E-W-S." -- Democratic state representative Bill McKinney on why his daughter Cynthia lost in 2002


On Whites

"I want to go up to the closest white person and say: 'You can't understand this, it's a black thing' and then slap him, just for my mental health."

-- Charles Barron, a New York city councilman at a reparations rally, 2002


"Civil rights laws were not passed to protect the rights of white men and do not apply to them." -- Mary Frances Berry, Chairwoman, US Commission on Civil Rights


(I) "will not let the white boys win in this election."
-- Donna Brazile, Al Gore's Campaign Manager on the 2000 election

"The old white boys got taken fair and square." -- San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown after winning an election

"There are white n*ggers. I've seen a lot of white n*ggers in my time." -- Former Klansman and Current US Senator Robert Byrd, a man who is referred to by many Democrats as the "conscience of the Senate" in March of 2001

"The Medicaid system must have been developed by a white male slave owner. It pays for you to be pregnant and have a baby, but it won't pay for much family planning." -- Jocelyn Elders

The white man is our mortal enemy, and we cannot accept him. I will fight to see that vicious beast go down into the lake of fire prepared for him from the beginning, that he never rise again to give any innocent black man, woman or child the hell that he has delighted in pouring on us for 400 years." -- Louis Farrakhan who campaigned for congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2002, City College audience in New York

"There's no great, white bigot; there's just about 200 million little white bigots out there." -- USA Today columnist Julienne Malveaux

"We have lost to the white racist press and to the racist reactionary Jewish misleaders." -- Former Rep. Gus Savage (D-Illinois) after his defeat 1992

"White folks was in caves while we was building empires... We taught philosophy and astrology and mathematics before Socrates and them Greek homos ever got around to it." -- Rev. Al Sharpton in a 1994 speech at Kean College, NJ, cited in "Democrats Do the Dumbest Things

"The white race is the cancer of human history." -- Susan Sontag

"Reparations are a really good way for white people to admit they're wrong." -- Zack Webb, University Of Kentucky NAACP

Wow Democrat's... We Hardly Knew Ya! -
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G M
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« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2010, 06:13:01 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6b1VOAATNk&feature=player_embedded#

History lesson.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 06:28:53 PM by G M » Logged
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2010, 07:40:38 AM »

The Hutarees: Exposure and Vulnerability
April 1, 2010
By Fred Burton and Ben West

On March 29, an indictment accusing nine individuals of planning attacks against police officers was unsealed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan. Those named in the indictment had been arrested by a joint anti-terrorism task force consisting of the FBI, the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and state and local police. Raids took place from March 27 to 29, with most of the arrests occurring in Washtenaw County in southeastern Michigan, near the border with Ohio. Other arrests took place in Ohio and Indiana. Photos and video of the raids showed special operations police staging outside targeted properties with armored personnel carriers, assault rifles and helicopter support — unusually overwhelming measures, likely taken because of suspicion that the group was plotting to kill police officers.

The individuals referred to themselves as “Hutarees,” a name meaning “Christian Soldiers” according to the group’s Web site, although it is unclear what language the word might come from. The federal indictment indicated that the apparent leader of the group, David Brian Stone, was known to make up names for tactical operations and maneuvers, so it is likely he coined the name of the group as well. The meaning given the term reflects the group’s extremist Christian beliefs and its claims that it was preparing to defend itself and others in the name of Christianity. According to the Hutaree Web site:

Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment … We, the Hutaree, are prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren’t. We will still spread the word, and fight to keep it, up to the time of the great coming.

All the task force raids transpired and ended peacefully, with one of the members, Joshua Matthew Stone, David’s son, holding out the longest. All nine individuals were charged Monday with seditious conspiracy; attempts to use weapons of mass destruction; teaching and demonstrating the use of explosive materials; and carrying a firearm for criminal violence. According to the indictment, the nine individuals trained in small-unit paramilitary tactics and acquired and trained with firearms, live ammunition, explosives, uniforms, communication equipment and medical supplies. It consisted of two units, one led by David Stone and the other led by his son Joshua, and the two units met and trained together roughly once a month. Another son, David Brian Stone Jr., served as the militia’s explosives instructor and demonstrator.

The most incriminating act the group committed was plotting to kill police officers by luring them into a trap. The group was planning to cause a police traffic stop or fake a 911 call and attack the responding officers, then follow up with more attacks during the official funerals that would follow. The indictment also accuses the elder David Brian Stone of instructing the group to kill anyone who happened upon and did not acquiesce to the group during an exercise set to take place in April 2010. This overt and imminent threat likely precipitated the raid that led to the arrests in late March. The group allegedly intended to trigger a larger uprising against the U.S. government in response to Hutaree activities, a charge that carries connotations of terrorism.


A Lack of Operational Security

Federal charges against the Hutarees relate to events as far back as August 2008, approximately when the group began plotting against the federal government, according to the indictment. It is unclear exactly how federal investigators collected information on the group, although it is not too difficult to imagine, given the group’s relatively high profile. For one thing, it maintained a Web site with photos of members, scheduled meeting times and forums where members and visitors could post comments and communicate with each other. This made it very easy for anyone to find the group and initiate contact with it, which in turn made it an easy target for enforcement.

The group displayed on its Web site and in a YouTube video footage of members training in small-unit tactics, images that never depicted more than six or seven people at a time. A group photo on their Web site shows 17 people, presumably the entire Hutaree membership, a relatively small group for a militia. The videos show them patrolling through woodlands and conducting small-arms firing exercises from behind vehicles. One video shows a mock-up of an improvised explosive device being detonated by a man crossing a tripwire and “killing” him, a demonstration that substantiates the accusation in the indictment that the group was attempting to acquire explosive materials and construct improvised explosive devices. In that same video, members of the group are seen setting fire to the UN flag and raising a flag bearing their own Hutaree insignia: an “H” overlaying a cross with two crossed spears at the bottom. However, the weapons displayed by the group varied: Some members brandished semi-automatic assault rifles while others held bolt-action hunting rifles. The lack of weapon standardization indicates that the group was still operating at a low level of organization.

The group was also thought to have had connections with other militias in the region. The federal indictment specifically mentions a meeting with several other groups that Hutarees planned to attend Feb. 6 in Kentucky. The meeting was meant to “facilitate better communications, cooperation, and coordination between the various militias.” Such contact with other militias is probably what emboldened the Hutarees to expect a coordinated uprising from these groups when the Hutarees started their offensive against the U.S. government. Although representatives of the group were ultimately unable to attend the February meeting, their intention to go indicates that they communicated with other groups in the region, and this would have increased the number of people who knew about them and could report on their activities. (In fact, the special agent in charge of the FBI’s Detroit field office, Andrew Arena, confirmed that an outside militia member had gone to the FBI after interacting with the Hutaree group.) It also means that the group likely engaged in e-mail and/or telephone contact with outsiders, which would allow law enforcement authorities to keep tabs on the group’s thoughts and plans.

Finally, one of the arrested individuals, Kristopher Sickles, had been a guest numerous times on nationally syndicated radio shows, once in August 2009 under the pseudonym “Pale Horse.” Publicly, Sickles associated himself with the Ohio militia, a fact that, when combined with details from the indictment, indicates that the group was not necessarily exclusive and that members of the Hutarees also trained with other groups in the region. The fact that the Hutarees trained together only once a month gave members ample opportunity to be involved in other militia activities. The fact that Hutaree members associated with other groups is not surprising; it would have helped them expand the movement and improve communications. But it would also have undermined the authority of any one group and prevented a clear hierarchy from forming, since the foot soldiers would not have answered to any one commander. This sort of dynamic dilutes any one group’s potency and leaves it more vulnerable to detection.

In his radio talk-show interviews, Sickles claimed he and his compatriots were “practicing their constitutional rights” by collecting firearms and ammunition and encouraging others to do so as well, emphasizing the need to “be prepared.” When asked what he was preparing for, Sickles named the economic crisis and the threat of U.S. involvement in more foreign wars while alluding to certain unanticipated and unnamed threats. He did not advocate the radical Christian ideology that was put forward by other members of the Hutarees and certainly did not publicly advocate attacking law enforcement officers.


The Risk of Going Public

Maintaining such a public profile greatly reduces the ability of any group to carry out surprise attacks on police officers and opens the group to infiltration. Sure enough, the federal indictment alludes to at least one case in which David Brian Stone sent diagrams and information on explosive devices over the Internet to “a person he believed capable of manufacturing the devices,” wording that indicates that either the FBI was using a source or an undercover agent had convinced Stone that he was an explosives expert who could help them. Such a source would be able to keep tabs on the group and draw them out. This tactic is extremely common in domestic counterterrorism cases involving Islamist militants and shows how the terrorist attack cycle is vulnerable, no matter who the actors are. Other cases, such as the Newburgh, N.Y., plot, involved law enforcement penetration into the suspected group and promises to deliver explosive material.

Successful domestic terror attacks require a high degree of isolation on the part of the operatives. The more people brought in to assist with the operation and become familiar with the group’s intentions, the higher the group’s risk of discovery. Unlike successful domestic terrorists before them, like Timothy McVeigh and Theodore Kaczynski, the Hutarees failed spectacularly at maintaining isolation, and this allowed authorities to penetrate their circle and maintain surveillance, thus mitigating any threat they posed.

The targets that the Hutarees had identified were police officers, who themselves are vulnerable targets (as seen in the fatal shootings in Seattle in November 2009), and considering the tactics the Hutarees devised to lure officers in and the arsenal they possessed, they certainly posed a risk. However, the degree of publicity that the Hutarees generated indicates that they were not practicing good tradecraft when it came to operational security — making the group an easy target for federal law enforcement agencies. This is an Achilles’ heel for many militant and criminal conspiratorial plots, especially plots originating inside the United States, where federal, state and local agencies are able to monitor a group’s e-mail, voice communications and activities.
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« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2010, 07:52:40 AM »

These clowns were Christian apocalyptic types who liked to dress up an play war. People who make so much tea out of these paltry leaves ought to be called teabaggers, too.

The Hutaree Arrest and Getting Tough on Terror From Left and Right

Brian Doherty | March 29, 2010

The indictment on the Hutaree "militia arrests" is out. From my read, even taking every word in it as gospel, it sounds like these guys were angry loudmouths who fantasized too much to someone who turned out to be a federal informant or agent, but who they thought was a potential comrade who might help them obtain some explosives.

I may be wrong on this, the government will have its opportunity to prove its case in court, and the defendents will have their opportunity to, well, defend themselves. (I have written and blogged in the past on the generally weak nature of the government's past highly publicized "domestic terror" busts.) It is way too early to decide exactly how much of a real threat to other people's lives and property these guys were.

Not if you are bloggers at DailyKos who are thrilled to see "sedition" being called by its true name, and appearing to presume that, well, the government wouldn't charge someone with something if they weren't guilty.

At Balloon Juice, they play a particularly dumb version of the "my opponents are hypocrites" game while lumping together everyone they think of as "on the right":

The indictment sounds pretty clear: we captured a bunch of religious fundamentalist extremists planning mass casualty attacks against America. Unlike, say, Jose Padilla or any of the clown car gangs whom Bush rounded up this team had the gear and the training to go operational (and kill a lot of people) within a month.

Rightwing antiterror doctrine clearly states that we must strip these “terrorists” (no such thing as alleged in the war on terror) naked and hang them in cold cages by the wrists with their arms tied behind their backs so that the tendons tear and the shoulder joint dislocates. We should waterboard them until they confess and give up their co-conspirators (the Inquisition found waterboarding almost 100% effective!). Without question these people should be held without any trial or access to habeas corpus petitions until the “war” against violent fundamentalist groups is over. At the very least we should shunt these guys into military tribunals where the rules have been rigged to ensure a conviction.

Of course Jonah Goldberg and Glenn Reynolds and Crittenden and Erickson and any other credentialed rightblogger will agree with what I just said. They have to.


I guess Balloon Juice is saying that, well, since these terrorists are on Goldberg and Reynolds' team, that they will defend them? Frankly, from their website's concerns and the general sense of their intellectual and cultural milieu I got from it, it would surprise the hell out of me if the Hutaree gave much of a damn about the vital importance of keeping Gitmo open, nor do the Jonah Goldberg/Glenn Reynolds right generally make much common cause with Christian apocalyptic warriors in the woods. But I am glad to see Balloon Juice is setting themselves up to be strong watchdogs for the Hutaree's procedural rights as this proceeds.

The Detroit News article (filled with good details on the specifics of the many raids that led to the arrests) has an interesting story spelling out that, whatever the Hutaree's crimes turn out to be, it would be wrong to smear the entire "militia movement" so-called with them:

Mike Lackomar, of Michiganmilitia.com, said...he heard from other militia members that the FBI targeted the Hutaree after its members made threats of violence against Islamic organizations.

"Last night and into today the FBI conducted a raid against homes belonging to the Hutaree. They are a religious cult. They are not part of our militia community," he said.....

One of the Hutaree members called a Michigan militia leader for assistance Saturday after federal agents had already began their raid, Lackomar said, but the militia member -- who is of Islamic decent and had heard about the threats -- declined to offer help. That Michigan militia leader is now working with federal officials to provide information on the Hutaree member for the investigation, Lackomar said Sunday.

"They are more of survivalist group and in an emergency they withdraw and stand their ground. They are actively training to be alongside Jesus," he said.


Anyone writing or thinking about how this is all going to play out as a cultural and political story should have under their belt Jesse Walker's excellent October 2009 Reason magazine feature on "The Paranoid Center."

http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/29/the-hutaree-arrest-and-getting
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« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2010, 08:10:08 AM »

Granny fined £1,000 for selling goldfish to child

Wed Mar 31, 9:01 AM

LONDON (AFP) - A British grandmother was heavily fined and electronically tagged for selling a goldfish to a child, triggering criticism Wednesday of over-zealous use of animal protection laws.
 
Pet shop owner Joan Higgins, 66, was fined 1,000 pounds (1,500 dollars, 1,120 euros) also given a dusk-to-dawn curfew for selling an animal to a person under the age of 16, but her 47-year-old son Mark -- also ordered to do community service -- slammed the ruling as a farce.

The pair were prosecuted after the local council sent a 14-year-old boy to buy a goldfish in a "sting" operation following reports that their shop, Majors Pets, had sold a gerbil to a teenager with learning difficulties.

The shopkeepers sold the fish without asking his age or how the fish would be cared for, prosecutors said.

"I think it's a farce and legal lunacy and I told the council that," said Mark Higgins, cited by the Daily Telegraph, noting that his mother was also given an electronic tag.

"What gets me so cross is that they put my Mum on a tag -- she's nearly 70, for goodness sake... You would think they have better things to do with their time and money," he said.

But Trafford Council in northern England defended the decision to prosecute, noting that the gerbil sold to the teenager with learning difficulties -- who was also 14 -- was put in a cup of coffee.

"The evidence presented for this conviction clearly demonstrates that it is irresponsible to sell animals to those who are not old enough to look after them," said Iain Veitch, the council's head of public protection.

Higgins and her son pleaded guilty at Trafford Magistrates' Court to selling an animal to a person aged under 16. She was ordered to obey a curfew from 6:00 pm to 7:00 am for seven weeks because she is unfit for community service.

Her son, who manages the shop, was fined 750 pounds and ordered to carry out 120 hours of unpaid community work at the end of eight months of legal action Tuesday.

The story was highlighted by a number of British newspapers Wednesday. The Daily Express said it made a "farce" of Britain's legal system, adding in a front-page headline: "Proof Britain really has gone mad."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/100331/oddities/britain_legal_animals_offbeat
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« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2010, 08:15:18 AM »

Waxman Convenes the First Death Panel
The chairman is denouncing businesses for complying with the law.

By JOHN FUND

The health care law is only a week old and already the bullies are throwing their weight around.

Rep. Henry Waxman, chairman of the powerful House Energy and Commerce Committee, is furious that large companies such as AT&T, Caterpillar and Deere are obeying SEC disclosure laws that Congress passed in the wake of the Enron scandal. The three companies were the first of many to take sizeable write-downs because the heath-care bill effectively poses a new tax on retiree drug-benefit plans. Benefit consultants say the new tax could reduce corporate profits by as much as $14 billion.

But Mr. Waxman will have none of it. He wrote to the heads of the three companies summoning them to testify at an April 21 hearing: "The new law is designed to expand coverage and bring down costs, so your assertions are a matter of concern." The letter reminded one business reporter of Darth Vader's famous line in "Star Wars" that he found an underling's actions "disturbing" -- just before he strangled him. The Waxman letter was accompanied by a lengthy request for documents that he demanded be produced for the star-chamber hearing.

At least one business group isn't backing down. The American Benefits Council, which represents 300 large corporations, called on President Obama and Congress to repeal the new tax yesterday. The Benefits Council shouldn't expect much sympathy from Chairman Waxman. Mr. Waxman, who he has spent over 35 years in Congress and has no economics background, is convinced the government health-care takeover he has championed for so long can't have negative side effects. Any troublemakers who say otherwise should expect to be summoned to explain themselves before his committee.

To read more stories like this one, please subscribe to Political Diary.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304739104575153943132772852.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLESecond
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« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2010, 09:33:03 AM »

And a fourth post:

The Left's Ludicrous Accusations against Tea Partiers

By James Simpson

Forgive the obscene photo of "Politically Incorrect" show host Bill Maher, but it serves as a stark visual testimonial to the Left's true nature. Every day, the Left shows us with their own actions that they are exactly what they accuse conservatives and tea partiers of being.

It is astonishing that they have the gall to accuse anyone of anything. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. But then we remember that the smear and the lie are all they have. As a post at Powerline relates, "It is liberals, not conservatives, who rely on ad hominem attacks, outrageous allegations and violent imagery." The accusations of racism and threats of violence put forth by congressional Democrats since Saturday are straight out of the Alinsky playbook. They probably made the calls themselves.

Thank God for talk radio and the internet. Thanks to the New Media, Democrats can no longer do these things with impunity. As Andrew Breitbart says, "The emperor has no clothes." The Left is being exposed for the empty fraud of a movement it is, and as that happens, they are getting increasingly desperate. Yes, we do have to worry about violence. From them. But this is nothing new, either.

Powerline describes the 2008 Republican convention in Minneapolis, where Leftist protesters

... threw bricks through the windows of buses, sending elderly convention delegates to the hospital. They dropped bags of sand off highway overpasses onto vehicles below. Fortunately, no one was killed.

As Noel Sheppard relates, the media were AWOL.

Here is a list of representative Leftist misbehavior:

Air America exhorts listeners to assassinate Bush.
Five campaign workers for Kerry arrested for slashing tires on 25 cars rented by GOP campaign workers. One of the five was the Milwaukee Mayor's son, the other the son of a Democrat U.S. congresswoman.
Republican combat wounded Vietnam vet's house spray-painted with the words BUSHNAZIS, American flags shredded, truck keyed.
Leftist lawyer caught keying Marine Iraq War vet's BMW just prior to his second deployment. (This one is priceless. You should read the outcome.)
Senator Mary Landrieu threatens to punch President Bush (a felony). Where was the press on that one?
Astroturfers threaten Andrew Breitbart and throw eggs at patriot rally buses.
Alan Grayson says that we need to "get rid of Republicans entirely."
Many cases of conservative newspaper production runs stolen or vandalized.
On "Conan O'Brien Show," unglued Alec Baldwin screams that Rep. Henry Hyde and family, including children, should be stoned to death.

Mere days ago, a Leftist Astroturf group of union activists threw eggs at a tea party bus entering Searchlight, Nevada -- hometown of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. They also cornered Andrew Breitbart, physically threatened him, and then called police, accusing Breitbart of throwing the eggs. He related the event to two San Francisco Chronicle reporters who hitched a ride with him. Here's the video.

Recall the SEIU thug who beat up a black reporter at a town hall rally in Missouri last summer. Recall that he was called "nigger," and that the thug was arrested. Somehow the AP missed all that.

Recall the Arizona town hall meeting where MS-NBC reported that some white racist was carrying an "assault weapon," except that that white racist happened to be black. Somehow they missed that, too.

Following is a rundown of anti-GOP incidents from the 2004 presidential election. We gratefully acknowledge the late Clifton T. Sharp of Clifto.com for compiling the list. It came from a post titled "Identifying the Good Guys, Notes for Election Fence-Sitters." I will preface the list with Cliff's insightful counsel:

More often than not, if you see a pattern of violence from one side, they're the bad guys. They're the ones who can't make their side rise above the other through merit, so they try to make the other side fall by violence and intimidation. It is nearly always true that the side that resorts to violence has no other method for achieving its goal. They cannot make good things happen for their side, so they make bad things happen to the other side.

Whenever there is a difference of beliefs, reasonable men can agree to reasonably disagree. It follows that those who resort to violence in an attempt to force their beliefs on others, or to stop others from expressing their beliefs, are not reasonable men. They do not believe in free speech; they want you to know that they will hurt you to stop you from exercising your rights to free speech.

When there are a few incidents among a very large group, such as a political party, it's hard to blame the entire group. But when violence is frequent and widespread, it becomes a policy rather than an aberration. It becomes an indication that the violent side believes it cannot reasonably persuade others to their beliefs, but instead must use force and intimidation to deter others from exercising their rights as citizens of the United States of America.

Thousands of years ago, ancient philosophers taught that one can distinguish the good guys from the bad guys by their actions. That advice still holds true. The bad guys are running organized attempts to disrupt and to harm their opponents, to frighten people like you so that you won't vote for the good guys. When you make your choice, try not to give them what they want.

Well said, Cliff. Rest in peace. Now here's the list:

October 15, 2004: Bullet Placed Upright outside the Door of Littleton, New Hampshire, Victory 2004 Headquarters.

October 15, 2004: Broken Piece of Ply-Board Thrown At the Glass Window/Door of Santa Fe, New Mexico, Republican Party Headquarters.

October 14, 2004: Potato Guns Fired At St. Paul, Minnesota, Victory 2004 Headquarters.

October 13, 2004: A Kerry Supporter Caught Stealing A Bush Sign In Cape Girardeau, Missouri, Pulled A Knife On The Signs Owner And Was Arrested. (Linda Redeffer, "Cape Man Claims He Was Threatened At Political Rally," Southeast Missourian, 10/16/04)

October 13, 2004: Window Smashed At Laconia, New Hampshire, Victory 2004 Headquarters.

October 13, 2004: Signs Ripped Down At Nashua, New Hampshire, Victory 2004 Headquarters; Perpetrators Swore At Headquarters Staff When They Tried To Replace The Signs.

October 13, 2004: Walls And Windows Of York, Pennsylvania, Victory 2004 Headquarters Vandalized With Pro-Kerry Spray-Paint And Signs Outside Destroyed.

October 11, 2004: Windows Broken, Petty Cash Stolen And Computers Tampered With In Burglary At Spokane, Washington Victory 2004 Headquarters. (David Postman, "President Bush's Campaign Office in Spokane Burglarized, Vandalized," The Seattle Times, 10/11/04)

October 11, 2004: Missouri Yard Signs Shredded With A Knife, Burnt And Discarded Behind A Building.

October 10, 2004: Threatening Note Found On Elderly Veteran's Bush-Cheney '04 Yard Sign In Ballwin, Missouri, Saying "You Vote For Bush, Then Later Down The Road You Die," Adding "You Will Burn In The After Life For The Suffering And Pain That Your Vote Will Cause Me."

October 10, 2004: Office Windows Broken And Field Director's Laptop Bag and Purse Stolen In Burglary At Canton, Ohio Victory Center. (Edd Pritchard, "Campaign Office Burgled Sunday," Canton Repository, 10/12/04)

October 9, 2004: Raleigh, North Carolina Supporter Had Several Bush-Cheney '04 Yard Signs Stolen On Separate Occasions Culminating In Attempted Arson Of Her Car.
October 9, 2004: Bush-Cheney Signs Near Vail, Colorado, Cut In Half And Burned In Ransacking. (Matt Zalaznick, Op-Ed, Welcome To the Tea Party, Vail [CO] Daily, 10/9/04)

October 9, 2004: Oxnard, California, Support Placing Bush-Cheney '04 Yard Signs Knocked Down And Had All Her Signs Stolen.

October 6, 2004: Organized Protest at Westmoreland, Pennsylvania Victory 2004 Headquarters, Protesters Entered Headquarters Premises. (Matthew Junker, "Protester Disrupts Kerry Rally," Tribune-Review, 10/7/04)

October 5, 2004: Protestors Storm, Ransack Bush-Cheney Headquarters in Orlando, Florida. "Local 6 News reported that several people from the group of 100 Orlando protestors face possible assault charges after the group forced their way inside the Republican headquarters office. While in the building, some of the protestors drew horns and a mustache on a poster of President George W. Bush and poured piles of letters in the office, according to the report." ("Protestors Storm, Ransack Bush-Cheney Headquarters in Orlando," Local 6 News, 10/5/04)

October 5, 2004: Organized Protests At Bush-Cheney '04 And Victory Headquarters In: Albuquerque, New Mexico (Protesters Entered The Bush-Cheney '04 Headquarters Premises)

Canton, Ohio (Protesters Attempted To Enter The Victory 2004 Headquarters Premises)

Dayton, Ohio (Protesters Attempted To Enter The Victory 2004 Headquarters Premises)

Columbus, Ohio (Protesters Attempted To Enter The Bush-Cheney '04 Headquarters Premises)

Charleston, West Virginia ("Business Briefs," Charleston [West Virginia] Gazette, 10/6/04)

Kansas City, Missouri (Protesters Entered The Victory 2004 Headquarters Premises)

Des Moines, Iowa ("Union Protestors March On GOP Headquarters," KCCI 8, TheIowaChannel.com, Accessed 10/12/04)

Concord, New Hampshire Dearborn, Michigan (Protesters Entered The Victory 2004 Headquarters Premises) (Chris Christoff, Dawson Bell And Patricia Montemurri, "Citizens Get Into The Mix Of Campaign Clashing," Detroit Free Press, 10/6/04)

Milwaukee, Wisconsin (Protesters Entered The Victory 2004 Headquarters Premises) (Greg Pierce, "Inside Politics," The Washington Times, 10/7/04)

St. Paul, Minnesota (Protesters Entered The Bush-Cheney '04 Headquarters Premises) (Patricia Lopez, "Protesters Raise A Ruckus At GOP Office," [Minneapolis, MN] Star Tribune, 10/6/04)

Tampa, Florida (Protesters Entered The Victory 2004 Headquarters Premises) (Jim Stratton, "Protesters Alarm Bush Campaign Workers," Orlando Sentinel, 10/6/04)

Miami, Florida (Protesters Entered The Bush-Cheney '04 Headquarters Premises) (Jim Stratton, "Protesters Alarm Bush Campaign Workers," Orlando Sentinel, 10/6/04)

Warren, Ohio (Protesters Attempted To Enter The Victory 2004 Headquarters Premises)

West Allis, Wisconsin (Protesters Entered Wisconsin Party Headquarters Premises) ("WisPolitics: Protestors Storm GOP Victory Center In West Allis," WisPolitics.com, 10/6/04, , Accessed 10/6/04)

Westmoreland, Pennsylvania (Protesters Entered The Victory 2004 Headquarters Premises) (Dan Majors, "Hethinks They Doth Protest Too Much," Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 10/7/04)

October 5, 2004: Gun Shot Fired Into Knoxville, Tennessee Victory-Bush Headquarters. "Gunshots shattered the plate-glass front doors of a local Bush-Cheney campaign headquarters Tuesday morning before volunteers reported to work. Police believe someone pulled up to the Kingston Pike Shopping Center storefront of Bush-Cheney Victory 2004 and began firing." (Duncan Mansfield, "Shots Fired At Knoxville Bush-Cheney Office; No One Hurt," The Associated Press, 10/5/04)

October 3, 2004: Burglary at Thousand Oaks, California Victory 2004 Headquarters Where A Bush-Cheney '04 Banner Was Stolen From Outside The Premises.

October 2, 2004: Collinsville, OH, Resident Chains Down Bush-Cheney Signs After Several Signs Stolen And One Was Replaced With Kerry Sign. (Bush-Cheney Signs Going Missing In Collinsville, The Associated Press, 10/2/04)

October 1, 2004: Swastika Burned Into Grass On Bush-Cheney Supporter's Lawn In Madison, WI. ("Swastika Burned Into Grass On Bush-Cheney Supporter's Lawn," WISC-TV Website, 10/1/04, , Accessed 10/12/04)

October 1, 2004: Laptops Of Executive And Field Director Stolen From Bush-Cheney '04 Headquarters In Seattle, Washington. "Three computers loaded with confidential campaign plans were reported stolen early yesterday in a burglary at President Bush's Washington state campaign headquarters. Someone threw a rock through a window of the campaign's office in a suburban business park, taking laptops belonging to key campaign workers from the desk of the Bush campaign's state director, Bellevue police and Republican Party officials said." (David Postman And Ashley Bach, "3 Computers Are Stolen From Bush Campaign Office," The Seattle Times, 10/7/04)

September 28, 2004: Vandalism Against Springfield, Missouri Victory 2004 Headquarters Where Perpetrators Broke Bottles And Spit On The Headquarters And Wrote The Anarchy Symbol On The Sidewalk With Chalk

September 22, 2004: West Elmira, New York, Resident Found Swastika Drawn On Bush Campaign Sign In His Yard. (John P. Cleary, "Swastika On Bush Sign Troubles Resident," [Elmira, NY] Star-Gazette, 9/23/04)

September 13, 2004: Swastika Drawn On Lawn Of Duluth Resident, Whose Signs Were Defaced With Words "Nazi" And "Liar." (Mark Stodghill, "Campaign Vandalism Increases," Duluth News-Tribune, 9/14/04)

September 10, 2004: West Virginia Victory Field Director's Car Tires Slashed Again And Note Left His Windshield Stating "Go Home Or Die."

September 4, 2004: West Virginia Victory Field Director's Car Tires Slashed.

September 3, 2004: Windows Broken, Anti-Bush Messages Scrawled At Gallatin County Republican Headquarters. "The headquarters of the Gallatin County Republicans was vandalized early Friday morning in a crime one Republican called an 'act of terror.' An unknown vandal or vandals spray-painted peace signs on the windows and anti-Bush messages on the outside walls. A rock was thrown through a double-paned window next to the main entrance to the building, and the front door was coated with eggs and possibly cottage cheese." (Walt Williams, "GOP Headquarters Vandalized In Political Protest," Bozeman [Montana] Daily Chronicle, 9/4/04)

September 2, 2004: Gun Shot Fired Into Huntington, West Virginia Headquarters. "The Secret Service was contacted Friday to help investigate a shot fired at the Cabell County Republican headquarters in Huntington. Supporters of President Bush had gathered at the 4th Avenue headquarters Thursday night to watch the president accept his party's nomination. About two minutes into the speech, someone fired a shot through the front window of the building." ("Few Leads In Shooting At GOP HQ," wowktv.com, 9/2/04)

September 1, 2004: Bullet Hole Found In Front Of Miami, Florida, Bush-Cheney '04 Headquarters.

July 31, 2004: Windows Again Broken At Morgantown, West Virginia Headquarters.

July 2, 2004: Windows Broken At Morgantown, West Virginia Headquarters.

Note that you will not find a similar list for vandalism against Democrats. I'm sure that there must have been some. Being confronted with people who routinely attempt to steal elections, people who even have billionaires creating professional organizations with the goal of systematically stealing elections while elected officials give them cover, and people who spew hatred everywhere they go while accusing the other side of hate and getting a free pass from the press while they're at it, it is understandable that some real Americans might have lost their patience and pulled up a yard sign or two.

But the truth is that that kind of behavior just is not in us. We were born and raised to be decent. We were born and raised to be self-supporting. We were born and raised to chip in and help out when we can. We were born and raised to be respectful of our institutions and our elected officials of both parties -- at least until they turned against us. In other words, we were born to be Americans, and the Left vitriolically hates us for it. It is a pity that they don't see that their cowardly, despicable, nihilistic behavior ultimately spells ruin for them as well.

I was at the 9-12 Rally. Not only were most of the people there the kind who would help granny cross the road, but many were grannies themselves -- some in wheelchairs. That the Left is systematically trying to smear such great people just demonstrates what cockroaches they really are.

Page Printed from: http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/04/the_lefts_ludicrous_accusation.html at April 01, 2010 - 09:30:26 AM CDT
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ccp
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« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2010, 10:24:33 AM »

MSNBC adjective use on the Bama drilling flip flop.

He "evolved" his thinking.  Talk about a double standard. 

Additionally MSNBC also was raving about talk radio being dominated by "fringe right" and going off with guests including Bill Press giving all sorts of reasons and strategies how the FCC should put a stop to talk radio because it is mostly conservative.

With regards to the bama flip flop Morris wonders on O'Reilly if this is the start of a Clintonesque triangulation strategy.

My suspician is this is more of a set up to get cap and trade passed. 
Pretend he is being bipartisan and meeting half way the conservatives before the liberals try to shove cap and trade down our throats.  Also it could get swing Dems on board with the cap and trade.  Bonus to the bama:  they can tax the crap out of this.   

And of course he can also reverse this once cap and trade passes through reconciliation.  Even if it is a few years from now.  The offshore oil wouldn't be available for years thanks to the left's past actions.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2010, 10:31:25 AM »

This man does not have enough power!  Lets give him some more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjg&feature=player_embedded
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 05:07:04 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
Freki
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« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2010, 03:52:14 PM »

I am no expert but I think the congressman is high as a kite.  He can't be that stupid.  His eyes are half shut and his delivery is too slow.  Something is wrong with him.
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rogt
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« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2010, 09:46:34 PM »

Let's try some less controversial examples.

Is Operation Rescue fascist?

Was Timothy McVeigh a fascist?

Rog
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G M
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« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2010, 11:03:57 PM »

Let's try some less controversial examples.

Is Operation Rescue fascist?

**To my knowledge, Operation Rescue is devoted to stopping elective abortions, with no other political agenda. You should read up on this origins of Planned Parenthood.**

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=21984

And we all know how evil Nazi eugenics were, don't we? How crazy were their efforts to build up the "master race" through selective breeding of SS men with the best of German women — the Lebensborn project? Good Leftists recoil in horror from all that of course. But who were the great supporters of eugenics in Hitler's day? In the USA, the great eugenicists of the first half of the 20th century were the "Progressives". And who were the Progressives? Here is one summary of them:

Originally, progressive reformers sought to regulate irresponsible corporate monopoly, safeguarding consumers and labor from the excesses of the profit motive. Furthermore, they desired to correct the evils and inequities created by rapid and uncontrolled urbanization. Progressivism ... asserted that the social order could and must be improved... Some historians, like Richard Hofstadter and George Mowry, have argued that the progressive movement attempted to return America to an older, more simple, agrarian lifestyle. For a few progressives, this certainly was true. But for most, a humanitarian doctrine of social progress motivated the reforming spirit.
Sound familiar? The Red/Green alliance of today is obviously not new. So Hitler's eugenics were yet another part of Hitler's LEFTISM! He got his eugenic theories from the Leftists of his day. He was simply being a good Leftist intellectual in subscribing to such theories.

The summary of Progressivism above is from De Corte (1978). Against all his own evidence, De Corte also claims that the Progressives were "conservative." More Leftist whitewash! See also Pickens (1968).

And are feminists conservative? Hardly. And feminists are hardly a new phenomenon either. In the person of Margaret Sanger and others, they were very active in the USA in first half of the 20th century, advocating (for instance) abortion. And Margaret Sanger was warmly praised by Hitler for her energetic championship of eugenics. And the American eugenicists were very racist. They shared Hitler's view that Jews were genetically inferior and opposed moves to allow into the USA Jews fleeing from Hitler (Richmond, 1998). So if Hitler's eugenics and racial theories were loathsome, it should be acknowledged that his vigorous supporters in the matter at that time were Leftists and feminists, rather than conservatives.
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DougMacG
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« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2010, 01:24:35 AM »

Rog, Regarding your examples I don't know whether you refer to their politics or their tactics.  Operation Rescue wants to stop the killing of innocent life.  I wouldn't think PETA is fascist unless they want to control more aspects of our lives than protecting animals.  They don't necessarily want the government to control your lives, just want to stop what they see as an injustice. The killing of Tiller the late term abortionist was not a pro-life act and Operation Rescue condemned it in the strongest terms: "The anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, which runs a "Tiller Watch" feature on its website, released a statement condemning the shooting. "We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/31/george-tiller-killed-abor_n_209504.html

McVeigh's politics could easily be considered right wing.  He was a gun rights advocate and anti-government, both to extreme levels.  His connection to Nazis seems to be that blowing up the building was inspired by a neo-Nazi novel.  But Nazis or fascists wouldn't allow private citizen gun ownership or forming private militias to protect liberties, or limited government, so I don't see the connection between Nazi-ism and his politics at least before he fell off the deep end.

Reading around I found this trying to make a connection between the Bush and what someone calls the 14 points of Fascism: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm.  I admit to my biases, but I don't see the connection of any of them.

I follow you in the hypothetical.  If the huts were Christian extremists and wanted the government to force all to practice Christianity, and force their way with the powers of government into your life to enforce it, then I agree.  But I doubt that was their view.  If it was, they are Fascists, not Christians or limited government advocates.

If being anti-abortion is really sexism in disguise where what they really want is more control over women, then they are fascists. But I think it is all about the unborn.  It doesn't mean people don't have compassion for the situation of the unwanting parents.  It's just that it doesn't rise to the level of death penalty for the unborn.

From the link above, if Bush, as accused, was using terrorism as just an excuse because he really wanted to wiretap more Americans, empower government and limit freedoms, then fascist he was.  But I don't buy it.  And now Obama is caught up in the same wiretaps, Guantanamo and an executive order ending federal funding of abortion.  Surprisingly, no fascism update at that website for the new administration.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2010, 06:06:13 AM »

A different tone of voice would serve this article better; I post it more for its list of examples:

http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/04/the_lefts_ludicrous_accusation.html

Concerning "right wing" and "left wing":  In my opinion, these two terms, which have become quite deeply rooted, are used quite often in ways that ultimately are confusing and/or logically incoherent.

QUESTION:  Lets see if we mean the same thing by the word "rightist":  Is a rightist someone who believes in a more or less intrusive, controlling government?

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Body-by-Guinness
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« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2010, 08:15:00 AM »

How the Left Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the FBI
By Anthony Gregory on Mar 30, 2010 in Civil Liberties, Surveillance, The State, terrorism, weapons

At the close of World War I, the federal government created the General Intelligence Division, an agency that eventually morphed into the modern FBI. One of GID’s main tasks was to compile a list of hundreds of thousands of radicals—socialists, anarchists, labor activists and antiwar agitators. Thousands were arrested for being suspected Communists. Hundreds of anarchists were deported to Bolshevik Russia, the silver lining being that left-anarchists like Emma Goldman discovered and wrote about the pure horror of Leninism and the fact that “proletarian dictatorship” was not any sort of improvement upon the wartime corporatism of the U.S. under Woodrow Wilson.

In the late 1920s, the renamed Bureau of Investigation spied on such “socialist” threats as Albert Einstein. Under Franklin Roosevelt, although the FBI continued to keep track of left radicals, it found a new enemy in the form of opponents of the New Deal. FDR used the FBI to spy on multitudes of peaceful rightwingers, unleashing a Brown Scare that was later turned against the left during the McCarthy-era Red Scare. Roosevelt even spied on his Republican presidential opponent, Wendell Willkie.

But during the Cold War, Republican and Democratic administrations again focused the FBI, for the most part, on disrupting the left. Its COINTELPRO operation—a program to “track, expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize the activities” of political radicals—was a great success. FBI’S COINTELPRO forged letters to bring about violence between the Black Panthers and United Slaves. In 1976, a Senate report showed that the FBI had boasted that “Although no specific counterintelligence action can be credited with contributing to this overall situation, it is felt that a substantial amount of the unrest [among left radical groups] is directly attributable to this program.”

While the FBI was used to infiltrate rightwing anti-Civil Rights and anti-integrationist activists, it was also targeted against stalwarts of the Civil Rights movement. The FBI monitored everyone from Martin Luther King in the 1960s to John Lennon in the 1970s. In the late 70s, the Church Committee reports in the Senate culminated in some effort to rein in this horribly abusive federal agency.

In the 1990s, the FBI was at the center of the militia scare, with its snipers and strongmen turned against peaceful separatist Randy Weaver and his family, and later at the Waco, Texas, standoff with Branch Davidians, at the end of which FBI agents gassed, shot and killed dozens of David Koresh’s followers at their home at Mt. Carmel. They used incendiary devices, which might have brought on the fire, and then lied about it.

It was in this period that the modern left became enamored of the federal police state and especially the FBI. Almost none of them stood up for the Branch Davidians. They came to think of FBI agents as a professional, national and enlightened force populated by such figures as the Jodie Foster character in Silence of the Lambs, an agency that enforced civil rights, protected the country from “rightwing extremists,” and overturned the injustices of local, prejudiced law enforcement.

But during the Bush II era, when the administration was reported to be reviving COINTELPRO, the left’s distrust of national police forces also became revived. In October 2003, the FBI extensively spied on peaceful Iraq war protesters, focusing especially on “anarchists. . . capable of violence.” Bush’s FBI activities were a throwback to the post-World War I General Intelligence Division’s obsession with anarchists. In 2005, the ACLU sued to reveal in court that it had been monitored by the FBI, which had over a thousand pages of documentation on the organization, as had Greenpeace and other politically leftist organizations. Religious pacifist groups were also spied on and infiltrated. And one “terror plot” after another allegedly discovered and broken up by the administration just in the nick of time turned out to be a group of poor saps of below-average intelligence who had been duped by federal informants into saying something threatening or “planning” a terror attack on American infrastructure with no chance at all of being successful, and probably no chance of having even come up with the idea without federal prodding and agitation. The concern about the return of Cold War-era FBI infiltration of fringe groups was once again seen on the left.

Now we are back to the Brown Scare, to militia hysteria, to fears that the out-of-power anti-government right, Christian groups, separatists, gunowners, opponents of national social programs, census and tax resisters and so forth are a great threat to American security. With all the Bush-era anti-Muslim hysteria and war on terror authoritarianism still in place, we have under Obama a revitalization of 1990s-style paranoia about “hate groups,” survivalists and indeed the entire populist right. Just as Bush conservatives could not differentiate Saddam Hussein from Osama bin Laden, or an innocent Muslim doing charity work in Pakistan from an engineer of 9/11, or an antiwar American activist from an anti-American enemy within giving comfort to the enemy abroad, so too do the Obama leftists conflate peaceful separatists with violent racists, peaceful survivalist militia men with Timothy McVeigh.

Every act of violence or alleged plan to commit violence or even adamant anti-government activism that can be pinned on the “extremist right”—the shooter who murdered a guard at the Holocaust museum, the man who murdered an abortion doctor in church, the man who flew a plane through an IRS building, some “militia” members allegedly planning anti-government violence—all of this is seen as part of a general trend, even a rightwing conspiracy, one about as coherent as the neoconservatives’ lumping together all anti-US Muslims under the banner of “Islamofascism.” Indeed, I am surprised that not many have yet warned of the “Christofascist” threat to America, although there has been plenty of talk comparing the tea party movement to the Nazi brownshirts and talk that this kind of militia activity is often associated with “race war,” even when the particular subjects at hand are not even accused of being racially motivated.

And so when a progressive like Rachel Maddow cheers that the Michigan militia members can be indicted and imprisoned without having done anything violent, when she reports that the FBI has infiltrated this group for months and stepped in to arrest them just in the nick of time, we should not be too surprised when she fails to make the obvious connection, and fails to be the least bit skeptical of the federal government’s police agents infiltrating a group for months only to discover that that group’s members are saying things about government that amount to “seditious conspiracy.” What kind of Orwellian world is it when the government can arrest people accused only of planning to commit violence against government agents and unleash a “civil war” that we all know is only a fantasy? What kind of world is it when the very media figure who denounced Bush’s “preemptive war” and Obama’s adoption of Bush’s “pre-crime” approach to imprisoning “enemy combatants” in “prolonged detention” before they commit violence is happy to see a group indicted on federal charges of talking about committing violence—talk that we can safely guess was likely incited by the very FBI that had been infiltrating this group for months? What kind of absurdist dystopia has the left crying foul when a private citizen infiltrates ACORN, but has no similar apprehensions about the FBI infiltrating “extremist” groups and arresting them for “seditious conspiracy”? How can anyone who saw through the Bush lies of war and crackdowns in the name of “national security” and stopping madmen from getting “weapons of mass destruction” really believe that fewer than a dozen Americans with some rifles and some pipebombs were themselves planning to use “weapons of mass destruction” in any way that posed a threat to the U.S. government? And what about the charge of having weapons in connection to a crime—that crime being the intention of one day committing a crime?

Of course, preempting people from committing acts of criminal violence is just and sometimes necessary, but the list of questionable charges levied at these people, on the tail end of months of FBI infiltration, would seem to be in a different category, and at least warrants more critical examination before passing judgment. One can abhor and condemn the idea of violence and oppose vehemently the types of acts that these men and women are accused of planning—and certainly, I do—while still smelling a rat in the way such sting operations are conducted, or at least demonstrating some journalistic skepticism that the government’s side of the story is 100% accurate and justifies the imprisonment of these people and the hysteria on which this kind of government activity thrives.

But once again, with their people at the helm of state, the left has decided to embrace the FBI, take it at its word, assume that people are guilty until proven innocent once accused of guilt by the police state that they now see as the guardian of order against rightwing extremism. Especially strange is the tendency of leftists to fear rightists out of power even more than in power. The same dynamic can be seen on the other side. The left and the right love power, and although that power is often directed against their own when the other side is at the reins, they cannot abandon the idea that a police state can be pinpointed only against those they hate, and not those with whom they sympathize. The responsible, non-partisan and indeed American thing to do is to harbor extreme skepticism toward the state when it spies, infiltrates, arrests and imprisons anyone, and most especially those whose alleged crime is “sedition” or “conspiracy” or in any way being the enemy of the state.

A note on sources: Much of this history is discussed in Geoffrey Stone’s Perilous Times. A lot of the stuff on the FBI’s history I read years back in Roland Kessler’s Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI. A good treatment of COINTELPRO can be found in James Bovard’s Terrorism and Tyranny. On Waco see Carol Moore’s the Davidian Massacre and my Waco archives. And see the ACLU on some of the surveillance abuses under the Bush administration.

http://www.independent.org/blog/?p=5565
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Rarick
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« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2010, 08:47:25 AM »

The FBI needs to stop being used by whatever political party is in office, and focus on their job. As it is they are abridging the civil rights of whoever is LEAST represented.  Sounds like the Tyrany of Majority item that the Constitution is supposed to prevent eh?
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2010, 09:52:25 AM »

Generally the piece makes good points, but I most certainly quibble with these two:

a) "one about as coherent as the neoconservatives’ lumping together all anti-US Muslims under the banner of “Islamofascism"

b) "With all the Bush-era anti-Muslim hysteria"
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DougMacG
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« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2010, 01:53:15 PM »

If we define 'rightist' as someone who believes in a less intrusive, controlling government, pretty hard to find fascist in that definition.  Wanting the Pledge of Allegiance recited is about as far as we go, but we are asking them to pledge to keep our liberties.

With most leftists, the charges of fascism are exaggerated.  They don't really want to control ALL of your life cradle to grave.  Far more than they should but not all of it.

When you look at the kooks who commit the atrocities, I thinks the ties to their politics either way are mostly irrelevant.  Their violence does not further their agenda in any of the examples.  They are mentally ill, criminally deranged or physically missing a crucial connection in their brain, whichever political side they say they are on.  Bill Maher flipping the bird doesn't move the moral or economic arguments for or against national health care or closing Guantanamo one iota in either direction.  It just means he's a jerk.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 01:55:31 PM by DougMacG » Logged
G M
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« Reply #79 on: April 05, 2010, 07:42:32 PM »

The FBI needs to stop being used by whatever political party is in office, and focus on their job. As it is they are abridging the civil rights of whoever is LEAST represented.  Sounds like the Tyrany of Majority item that the Constitution is supposed to prevent eh?

As usual, you have an opinion with nothing to support it.
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G M
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« Reply #80 on: April 05, 2010, 07:45:06 PM »

How the Left Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the FBI
By Anthony Gregory on Mar 30, 2010 in Civil Liberties, Surveillance, The State, terrorism, weapons

**What tin-foilist site did you dredge this up from?**
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Rarick
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« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2010, 05:19:15 AM »

The FBI needs to stop being used by whatever political party is in office, and focus on their job. As it is they are abridging the civil rights of whoever is LEAST represented.  Sounds like the Tyrany of Majority item that the Constitution is supposed to prevent eh?

As usual, you have an opinion with nothing to support it.

Didn't you read BBG's post?
During the "Red Scare" Era (right/conservative) the FBI reacted fairly conservatively leaning on leftist factions, now after enough years of left/liberal in the government it is going the other way.  If they just worried about the active threats -Machine Gun Kelly and such- instead of taking preventive steps they would not be nearly as maniplulated as they are now.  They would also be dealing with De Facto criminals, and on non-political safe ground, rather than the "political agitator" crimes.  Given freedom of speech the political agitator could easily be wearing the suit of a delegate at a non-majority party convention.............

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G M
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« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2010, 07:36:48 AM »

BBG's post was written by someone with an anti-establishmentarian agenda coupled with a profound lack of law enforcement knowledge.

Do politics shape how law enforcement works? Yes, to a degree as law enforcement agencies in this country either answer to an elected official, or the appointed head of the agency answers to an elected official, but how FBI "brick agents" work is very distant from politics 99.9 % of the time. The FBI has 300+ federal laws they are charged with enforcing by statutes set by congress. It's easier to be admitted to Harvard than to be hired by the FBI. The men and women of the FBI take on huge responsibilities and lots of sacrifice for not a great deal of money, especially when compared to the cost of living in the cities they often get posted to at the start of their careers. When you consider what lawyers, CPAs and foreign linguists with undergrad degrees could make in the private sector compared to doing a job where a bad day at work can result in a flag draped coffin, we should be glad that are such people willing to step up and do the job.

fbi.gov

FBI PRIORITIES
In executing the following priorities, we will produce and use intelligence to protect the nation from threats and to bring to justice those who violate the law.

1. Protect the United States from terrorist attack.
2. Protect the United States against foreign intelligence operations and espionage.
3. Protect the United States against cyber-based attacks and high-technology crimes.
4. Combat public corruption at all levels.
5. Protect civil rights.
6. Combat transnational and national criminal organizations and enterprises.
7. Combat major white-collar crime.
8. Combat significant violent crime.
9. Support federal, state, county, municipal, and international partners.
10. Upgrade technology to successfully perform the FBI's mission.
 
Shouldn't someone be doing this?
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G M
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« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2010, 07:51:03 AM »

**This story came out 3/31/2010. I guess the FBI didn't get the political memo that Anthony Gregory did.**  rolleyes

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=10251568

FBI Sees Little Chance of Copycat Militia Plots
Anger aplenty, but FBI sees little chance of copycat plots after Christian militants' arrest
By DEVLIN BARRETT
The Associated Press
WASHINGTON



There's a lot of anger out there. But the alleged plot by Midwestern militants and violent outbursts by scattered individuals don't signal any coming wave of extremist violence, federal investigators say.

There's more fizzle than fight among self-styled militias and other groups right now, they say, and little chance of a return to the organized violence that proved so deadly in the 1990s.

Militia extremist statements "primarily have served as an expression of anger after a particular event," according to an FBI intelligence bulletin obtained by The Associated Press. "The FBI assesses the likelihood of violent conflict from the remaining group members or other militia extremists as low."

A group of Christian militants calling themselves the Hutaree stand charged with plotting attacks against police in Michigan, assaults that prosecutors say the militants hoped would inspire others to commit anti-government violence. There was no attack; authorities moved in and made arrests last weekend because, the prosecutors contend, the group was girding for action in April.

There is always a risk of a lone wolf launching an attack, and law enforcement officials cannot rule out the possibility that they have failed to detect larger, more organized plots still unfolding. But the FBI bulletin — it was issued to police departments — underscores that authorities have not yet detected clear signs of a revival of organized violence that would require a strong federal response.
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G M
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« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2010, 08:15:27 AM »

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/29/stone.pdf

Read the indictment and tell me this is just "freedom of speech".
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G M
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« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2010, 08:23:09 AM »

Department of Justice Press Release
 
For Immediate Release
March 29, 2010 United States Attorney's Office
Eastern District of Michigan
Contact: (313) 226-9100 
Nine Members of a Militia Group Charged with Seditious Conspiracy and Related Offenses

Six Michigan residents, along with two residents of Ohio and a resident of Indiana, were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, United States Attorney Barbara L. McQuade and FBI Special Agent in Charge Andrew Arena announced today.

The five-count indictment, which was unsealed today, charges that between August 2008 and the present, the defendants, David Brian Stone, 45, his wife, Tina Stone, 44, his son, Joshua Matthew Stone, 21, of Clayton, Michigan, and his other son, David Brian Stone, Jr., 19, of Adrian, Michigan, Joshua Clough, 28, of Blissfield, Michigan, Michael Meeks, 40 of Manchester, Michigan, Thomas Piatek, 46, of Whiting, Indiana, Kristopher Sickles, 27, of Sandusky, Ohio, and Jacob Ward, 33, of Huron, Ohio, acting as a Lenawee County Michigan militia group called the Hutaree, conspired to oppose by force the authority of the U.S. government. According to the indictment, Hutaree members view local, state, and federal law enforcement as the “brotherhood,” their enemy, and have been preparing to engage them in armed conflict.

The indictment further alleges that the Hutaree planned to kill an unidentified member of local law enforcement and then attack the law enforcement officers who gather in Michigan for the funeral. According to the plan, the Hutaree would attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession with improvised explosive devices with explosively formed projectiles, which, according to the indictment, constitute weapons of mass destruction. Subsequently, and in furtherance of this plan, David Brian Stone, the Hutaree’s leader, obtained information about such devices over the Internet and e-mailed diagrams of such devices to a person he believed capable of manufacturing the devices. He then had his son, Joshua Matthew Stone, and others gather materials necessary for the manufacturing of such devices.

According to the indictment, in June 2009, David Brian Stone and his other son, David Brian Stone, Jr., taught other Hutaree members how to make and use explosive devices intending or knowing that the information would be used to further a crime of violence. In addition, the grand jury charged all nine defendants with carrying or possessing a firearm during a crime of violence on at least one occasion.

U.S. Attorney McQuade said, “Because the Hutaree had planned a covert reconnaissance operation for April which had the potential of placing an unsuspecting member of the public at risk, the safety of the public and of the law enforcement community demanded intervention at this time."

Andrew Arena, FBI Special Agent in Charge, said, "This is an example of radical and extremist fringe groups which can be found throughout our society. The FBI takes such extremist groups seriously, especially those who would target innocent citizens and the law enforcement officers who protect the citizens of the United States. The FBI would like to thank our federal, state, and local law enforcement partners who are member of the Joint Terrorism Task Force, for their assistance in this case."

As of this morning, eight of the nine defendants are in custody and seven of them will be making their initial appearance before United States Magistrate Judge Donald A. Scheer at 10 a.m. Joshua Stone is currently a fugitive. Any person with information as to the whereabouts of this individual should contact the Federal Bureau of Investigation at (313) 965-2323.

The charge of seditious conspiracy carries a statutory maximum penalty of 20 years in prison, attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction carries a statutory maximum penalty of life in prison, Teaching the use of explosives materials carriers a statutory maximum penalty of 20 years in prison, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence carries a mandatory minium penalty of at least five years in prison.

An indictment is only a charge and is not evidence of guilt. A defendant is entitled to a fair trial in which it will be the government's burden to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The case was investigated by special agents of the FBI and the Michigan State Police.
 
 
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Body-by-Guinness
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« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2010, 08:28:02 AM »

That "military inspired training" sure sounds scary. That's like those military inspired guns. Oh wait, all guns are military inspired. . . .  rolleyes

My guess is that these guys are a bunch of wannabes who ran their mouths in the wrong places. Note to self: leave the room when someone starts ranting about anti-government small group action as it's about dead nuts certain that someone in the room is an informant or agent and just nodding your head can get you lumped in as a conspirator amid a group that couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag.

Sure wish the Justice Department had the same kind of hard on for the New Black Panthers intimidating voters in Philly or the various jihadi groups that have been long training in the US. . . .
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G M
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« Reply #87 on: April 06, 2010, 08:37:11 AM »

The lack of prosecution in the Black Panthers case was political (and disgusting), but that decision was from the US Atty's Office, not the FBI. The FBI has popped jihadists CONUS multiple times since 9/11.

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G M
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« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2010, 08:40:32 AM »

**Another innocent victim of the FBI?**

Department of Justice Press Release
 
For Immediate Release
September 24, 2009 United States Attorney's Office
Northern District of Texas
Contact: (214) 659-8600 
FBI Arrests Jordanian Citizen for Attempting to Bomb Skyscraper in Downtown Dallas

DALLAS—James T. Jacks, the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Texas, and Robert E. Casey, Jr., Special Agent in Charge for the Dallas Office of the FBI, announced today that Hosam Maher Husein Smadi, 19, has been arrested and charged in a federal criminal complaint with attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction. Smadi, who was under continuous surveillance by the FBI, was arrested today near Fountain Place, a 60-story glass office tower located at 1445 Ross Avenue in downtown Dallas, after he placed an inert/inactive car bomb at the location. Smadi, a Jordanian citizen in the U.S. illegally, lived and worked in Italy, Texas. He has repeatedly espoused his desire to commit violent jihad and has been the focus of an undercover FBI investigation.

“The highest priority of the FBI and the Department of Justice remains the prevention of another terrorist attack within the United States,” said U.S. Attorney Jacks. “In that effort, it is the job of the FBI to locate and identify individuals intent upon carrying out any type of attack upon this country and its citizens/residents.  Whether as part of a group or acting alone, persons contemplating such acts need to know that all components of the government are working together to ferret out their activities and to insure that such individuals face the full measure of the law. The identification and apprehension of this defendant, who was acting alone, is a sobering reminder that there are people among us who want to do us grave harm,” Jacks continued.

Special Agent in Charge Casey said, “Today’s arrest of Hosam Maher Husein Smadi underscores the FBI’s unwavering commitment to bring to justice persons who attempt to bring harm to citizens of this country and significant danger to this community. Smadi made a decision to act to commit a significant conspicuous act of violence under his banner of “self jihad.” He will now face justice. The many agents, detectives, analysts, and prosecutors who helped to bring about Thursday’s arrest deserve special thanks for their efforts. This case serves as a reminder of the continuing threats of terrorism we face as a nation and the FBI’s resolve to meet those threats. The arrest of Smadi is not in any way related to the ongoing terror investigation in New York and Colorado.”

“The criminal complaint alleges that Hosam Smadi sought and attempted to bomb the Fountain Place office tower, but a coordinated undercover law enforcement action was able to thwart his efforts and ensure no one was harmed,” said David Kris, Assistant Attorney General for National Security.

Smadi will make his initial appearance tomorrow in U.S. District Court before U.S. Magistrate Judge Irma C. Ramirez.

According to affidavits filed today with the complaint and search warrants:

Smadi was discovered by the FBI espousing his desire to commit significant acts of violence. Smadi stood out because of his vehement intention to actually conduct terror attacks in the U.S.

The FBI developed an investigative plan to determine Smadi’s true intent while also protecting the public’s safety. Smadi made clear his intention to serve as a soldier for Usama Bin Laden and al Qaeda, and to conduct violent jihad. Undercover FBI agents, posing as members of an al Qaeda “sleeper” cell, were introduced to Smadi, who repeatedly indicated to them that he came to the U.S. for the specific purpose of committing “Jihad for the sake of God.” Smadi clarified that he was interested in “self-jihad,” because it was “the best type of jihad.” Smadi was interested in violent jihad against those he deemed to be enemies of Islam. The investigation determined Smadi was not associated with other terrorist organizations.

Throughout the investigation, undercover FBI agents repeatedly encouraged Smadi to reevaluate his interpretation of jihad, counseling him that the obligations a Moslem has to perform jihad can be satisfied in many ways. Every time this interaction occurred, Smadi aggressively responded that he was going to commit significant, conspicuous acts of violence as his jihad.

In June 2009, Smadi identified potential targets in the Dallas area; but in mid-July, he notified an undercover FBI agent that he had changed his mind regarding the targets. On July 21, 2009, Smadi met with an undercover FBI agent and directed the agent to drive them to a Wells Fargo Bank in downtown Dallas. Smadi and the undercover FBI agent then drove to 1445 Ross Avenue where the Fountain Place office tower is located. A Wells Fargo Bank is located in that building. Smadi went into the building where he conducted his own reconnaissance.

In late August 2009, while meeting with one of the undercover FBI agents in Dallas, Smadi discussed the logistics and timing of the bombing, stating that he would have preferred to do the attack on “11 September,” but decided to wait until after the month of Ramadan, which ended on September 20, 2009. At the conclusion of the meeting, Smadi decided that a vehicle-borne improvised explosive device (VBIED) would be placed at the foundation of the Fountain Place office tower. Unbeknownst to Smadi, the FBI ensured the VBIED contained only an inert/inactive explosive device which contained no explosive materials.

A federal complaint is a written statement of the essential facts of the offenses charged, and must be made under oath before a magistrate judge. A defendant is entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. The offense of attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction carries, upon conviction, a maximum statutory sentence of life in prison and a $250,000 fine.

The case is being investigated by the FBI in conjunction with members of the FBI-sponsored North Texas Joint Terrorism Task Force. Assistant U.S. Attorney Dayle Elieson is in charge of the prosecution. The Counterterrorism Section of the Justice Department’s National Security Division is assisting in the prosecution.
 
 
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Body-by-Guinness
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« Reply #89 on: April 06, 2010, 09:07:07 AM »

Last I heard, the FBI worked for Justice.

We've got jihadi enclave where a lot of training goes on, locals are intimidated, lotta coming and going down south of me that has been operating in an uninterrupted manner for quite a few years. Betcha some of those folks talk to others about doing naughty things, too. Be nice to see that operation and similar ones rolled up as, when you are fishing for headlines, it appears pretty simple to crack a bunch of folks for running around playing soldier.

Of course arresting a bunch of white god squaders fits into the the current MSM narrative a wee bit better than nailing a jihadi enclave that's been operating for years.
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G M
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« Reply #90 on: April 06, 2010, 09:24:19 AM »

The FBI works for the DOJ, but the decision to prosecute a case, or not is not up to the FBI.

Maybe the "Muslims of America" have a bit better OPSEC and are a bit more wary of whom the recruit.

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G M
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« Reply #91 on: April 06, 2010, 09:28:35 AM »

Ok BBG,

Let's say you are the SAC in the FBI office in the midwest when it comes to your attention that you've got a group that's plotting to kill cops. Do you wait until some rural deputy gets murdered on a traffic stop, or see if a U/C or other investigative method can make a case before someone gets killed?
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Body-by-Guinness
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« Reply #92 on: April 06, 2010, 11:28:13 AM »

I say clowns get what they deserve. It's just awfully politically convenient to have religious wackos in tiger stripes on the front page, and islamic wackos and New Black Panther wackos off the same. Perhaps I'm a conspiracy theorist, and the MSM is certainly involved as they select what to focus on, but when the bounces all start breaking the same way at opportune times I look to see if the game is rigged.
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G M
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« Reply #93 on: April 06, 2010, 08:04:39 PM »

Were your theory true, why this ? "The FBI assesses the likelihood of violent conflict from the remaining group members or other militia extremists as low."
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G M
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« Reply #94 on: April 06, 2010, 08:15:34 PM »

**Who was president in 1985 ?**

Police Continue Siege at Extremist Camp
April 22, 1985|Associated Press

THREE BROTHERS, Ark. — Camouflaged police officers trod warily Sunday for fear of setting off booby traps or mines as they besieged for a third day the hide-out of an extremist religious group whose leader is wanted on a weapons charge.

Federal officials were continuing to negotiate with the group--known as the Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord--for the surrender of leader Jim Ellison and hoped the standoff would not erupt into violence, said FBI agent Ray McElhaney.


Another right-wing extremist, who was arrested Saturday night in connection with the shooting death of a Missouri state trooper, was held without bond in a Springfield, Mo., jail Sunday.

Crowd Cheers Arrest

David C. Tate was transferred to Springfield from Forsyth, where 200 persons cheered upon hearing of his arrest.

Meanwhile, inside the remote, 224-acre compound deep in the Ozarks on the Arkansas-Missouri border, members of the extremist group moved into a barbed-wire enclosure, authorities said.

"We are talking about people who have announced they are well armed," McElhaney said. "There is good reason to believe there are explosives, mines and assault weapons on the premises, and the people that occupy the compound have adequate training in using them."

Federal and state lawmen converged on the encampment Friday to arrest Ellison, 44, who faces a federal charge of conspiracy to manufacture restricted weapons--automatic guns. The charge carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.

In an attempt to flush him out of the compound Saturday, officers took over two unoccupied clusters of buildings.

Four women and 12 children had voluntarily left the compound, McElhaney said.

Police had wanted to search the compound as part of the massive manhunt for Tate of Athol, Ida., a member of the neo-Nazi group The Order, accused in the slaying of Trooper Jimmie L. Linegar, 31, last Monday. Another trooper, Allen Hines, 36, was wounded.

However, Tate, 22, who Covenant members said had visited the compound two years ago, was arrested unarmed late Saturday in Forsyth, said Missouri Highway Patrol Capt. Lee Thompson.

He was transferred from the Taney County Jail in Forsyth to the Greene County Jail in Springfield, 30 miles to the north, Saturday night, officials said. He was placed in a maximum security cell where authorities could check him every 15 minutes.

Tate was arraigned in Taney County on charges of murder, first-degree assault, federal charges of unlawful possession of a machine gun and violation of anti-racketeering laws, said Lt. Ralph Biele of the highway patrol. When Tate was brought to the courthouse in Forsyth, some in the crowd outside yelled, "Kill him, kill him."
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G M
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« Reply #95 on: April 06, 2010, 08:55:30 PM »


NYPD, FBI heroes honored after foiling terror plot to bomb Riverdale synagogues
BY Celeste Katz and Corky Siemaszko
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

Updated Friday, May 22nd 2009, 1:44 PM
 
Watts/NewsMayor Bloomberg, Police Commissioner Kelly and Governor Paterson (center) honor more than 100 law enforcement personnel who had a hand in foiling the plot to bomb synagogues in the Bronx.
The cops and G-men who busted a gang of homegrown terrorists before they could blow up two Bronx synagogues got a big pat on the back Friday from a grateful city.

"I feel safer in the city today than ever before," Mayor Bloomberg said at a City Hall ceremony to honor the heroes. "They have prevented what could have been a terrible loss of life."

Gov. Paterson called the plot "one of the most heinous crimes that has been [planned] in this city for a long time."

And Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly called the police and FBI response "a textbook example of how a major investigation should be handled."

The kudos came a day after the suspects were ordered held without bail - and branded anti-Semitic would-be killers who dreamed of basking in the glory of their spectacular attacks.

"It's hard to envision a more chilling plot to bring mass murder to a . . . community," said Eric Snyder, an assistant U.S. attorney. "These are people who are eager to bring death to Jews."

Three of the shackled suspects - James Cromitie, 44; David Williams, 28, and Onta Williams (no relation to David), 32 - barely spoke at their Thursday arraignment in White Plains Federal Court.

The fourth man, Haitian immigrant Laguerre Payen, 27, looked dazed when he appeared later.

Cromitie, who recruited the other plotters, decided to bomb the synagogues because Al Qaeda already had brought down the best target the World Trade Center, court papers said.

"I hate those motherf-----s, those f-----g Jewish bastards," he told the informant, court papers revealed. "I would like to get [bomb] a synagogue."

He was itching to watch the devastation he wrought played out over and over again on TV.

"I'm the one who did that," Cromitie congratulated himself after the planned attacks, an informant told cops. "That's my work."

Even though cops called Cromitie the ringleader, Snyder singled out David Williams as the meanest of the bad-news bunch, saying he bragged he'd shoot anyone who tried to stop him.

The suspects, who are charged with conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction and anti-aircraft missiles, did not ask for bail. A judge ordered them held until a hearing on June 6.

The group's diabolical dream was to create "a fireball that would make the country gasp," a law enforcement source said.

The accused terrorists were busted Wednesday night as they planted what they thought was 37 pounds of explosives outside the Jewish center and the Riverdale Temple, two blocks away.

Within seconds, authorities had closed off the normally tranquil street using 18-wheel trucks. Cops and agents swarmed over the black SUV getaway vehicle, broke the windows and yanked the suspects out.

The four also plotted to blow a plane out of the sky at Stewart Air National Guard Base in Newburgh, Orange County, authorities charge.

"These guys were angry, they had intent and they were searching for capacity," a senior federal law enforcement official told the Daily News. But, the official added, they're "not exactly Al Qaeda."

The suspects met at their Newburgh mosque, Masjid al-Ikhlas, sources said, and at least three were jailhouse converts to Islam.

The mosque's spiritual leader denounced the plot and disowned the suspects. "Their plan was un-Islamic," declared Imam Salahuddin Mustafa Muhammad.

With Rich Schapiro, Tanyanika Samuels and Alison Gendar



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/05/22/2009-05-22_nypd_fbi_heros_honored_after_foiling_terror_plot_to_bomb_.html#ixzz0kNJTlKG6
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Body-by-Guinness
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« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2010, 11:34:10 AM »

Hmm, okay, I stand corrected. LEOs never grandstand, the goals of the regime in power doesn't impact the pace of an investigation, and perp walks are a vital piece of performance art and never done to strut before the news media. . . .
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G M
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« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2010, 08:35:35 AM »

As I said before:

Do politics shape how law enforcement works? Yes, to a degree as law enforcement agencies in this country either answer to an elected official, or the appointed head of the agency answers to an elected official, but how FBI "brick agents" work is very distant from politics 99.9 % of the time. The FBI has 300+ federal laws they are charged with enforcing by statutes set by congress.
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« Reply #98 on: April 09, 2010, 09:23:59 AM »

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2010/04/print/target_police_policing_in_the.php

Counterterrorism Blog
"Target: Police" Policing in the Era of Tighter Budgets and Heightened Threats
By Madeleine Gruen

Last week in Washtenaw County, Michigan, a right-wing militia called the Hutaree was raided by state and local police, and FBI agents. Nine militia members were arrested and charged with conspiring to murder a police officer then attack that officer’s funeral with improvised explosive devices (IEDs). This was to be the first step in the Hutaree’s plot to overthrow the U.S. government.

The Hutaree is only one of many separatist, terrorist, and hate groups that position police as their number one target for attack. The threat to police officers’ personal safety has always been a hazard of the profession. However, concern for their own safety is a fraction of the growing number of concerns police departments are required to manage—they are still responsible for maintaining civil order, public safety, and now also play a role in detecting and disrupting terrorist threats.

To make matters even more complex, massive budget cuts in municipalities across the country are forcing police departments to eliminate officers, and do without essential training and resources. The financial circumstances raise a serious concern that departments may not be able to continue to hold back the rising threat.

The Hutaree arrests shined a spotlight on the danger to law enforcement presented by groups that seek to wage a war against the U.S. government. The Hutaree regularly trained in the woods with live ammunition, and believed it was ready for a showdown with police. The Hutaree anticipated that the police would be defeated, demoralized, and rendered ineffective following the bloody confrontation at the police funeral.

Tom Metzger, a veteran of the white racist movement and founder of the White Aryan Resistance, says that the declining economy and evidence of weakening governance create an opportunity for his movement, and other anti-government groups, to gain support. Ultimately, Metzger predicts, the system will tip in the favor of anti-government extremist movements.

Michigan police were also the target of another fringe group’s violent ambitions in October 2009. The Ummah is a nation-wide Islamist movement whose spiritual mentor is convicted cop-killer Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin. The movement’s Detroit branch was led by Luqman Ameen Abdullah, who intended for his group to establish a separate Islamic state in the United States by waging “offensive jihad” against the government. Abdullah was obsessed with killing cops, and instructed his followers, many of whom were convicted felons, to carry guns so that they could shoot officers rather than be arrested by them, telling them gleefully to “shoot cops in the head! Pop, pop!”

Abdullah and many of his closest followers were allegedly involved in gun-running, and the buying and selling of stolen goods. On October 28, 2009, Abdullah was shot and killed in a gunfight during a raid that was conducted jointly by state and local police and the FBI.

Recently, in Hemet City, California, the Vagos biker gang has been attacking the local police department in retaliation for the department’s crackdown on the gang’s drug dealing and other criminal activity. Since December, police have found explosive devices strapped under their vehicles and guns rigged to shoot officers as they open doors. An attempt was made to kill officers by rerouting a natural gas pipeline to spew fumes into their offices. The department has since built a barricade around its headquarters to protect against grenade or other types of attacks perpetrated by the 600-member strong gang. Last year, the Hemet Police Department was forced to slash a quarter of its officers due to budget cuts. They are currently fighting crime and managing the attacks directed at them with only 68 officers. Over the past decade, the population of Hemet has doubled to more than 100,000 residents.

In the next few months, Baltimore, Maryland may be forced lose as many as 200 officers, and faces possible elimination of its helicopter, marine, and mounted units. These units are critical to the department’s efforts to secure Baltimore’s harbor, facilitate the pursuit of criminals, and control riots. Baltimore Police Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III said it would take 10 years for the city to recover from the setbacks caused by the proposed cuts.

The Illinois State Police will have to cut 460 troopers, and Georgia will have to do away with some critical training for new recruits. Michigan, which had its share of incidents with the Hutaree and the Ummah, has already lost 4,000 police officers in the past decade, and will be forced to cut a few hundred more. The list goes on.

In an effort to soften the playing field in their favor, terrorist, separatist, and hate groups will continue targeting police. These groups view dwindling police resources, and the declining economy in general, as an opportunity to improve their own strategic positions. This means police may be forced to concentrate what few resources they have on fighting the threat created by these groups. Meanwhile, public security will be compromised.


By Madeleine Gruen on April 8, 2010 5:02 PM
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Rarick
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« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2010, 10:19:03 AM »

Which is why you want armed citizens who haven't been peeved by in your face tactics and attitude.  They can keep crime down with the simple knowledge they are out there, and maybe even save your butt once in a while.

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