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Author Topic: Vehicle issues  (Read 2729 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: March 10, 2008, 10:43:20 AM »

Woof All:

This thread is for issues having to due with cars, driving etc. 
This could be dealing with a criminal attack while you are in your car where you can't drive away, where you can drive away, and so forth.

If you have no particular knowledge or experience of driving skills beyond having watched a couple of episodes of "Cops", I have seen this suggested as a good experience to get a sense of what you can do with your car:

http://www.scca.com/contentpage.aspx?content=55

TAC,
CD
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thai70
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 05:07:23 AM »

the final disposition had the father coping a plea.  he got 5 years with parole in two.  the son got one year in DH.  A f***ing travesty.


Beating follows parking lot accident
By Leila Fujimori
lfujimori@starbulletin.com
What began as a minor traffic accident at the Waikele Center parking lot ended in the brutal beating of a young couple by two men and a woman, police said.

Two witnesses told the Star-Bulletin that a large crowd of shoppers watched in horror Monday afternoon as a petite 23-year-old woman was punched in the face by a man and knocked unconscious, and her 26-year-old husband was stomped and kicked in the head. Meanwhile, their son, about 3, sat in the back seat.

Authorities have charged 45-year-old Gerald D. Paakaula of Waianae with second-degree assault. Bail was set at $20,000. His teenage son was also arrested for second-degree assault and referred to Family Court. The woman, Paakaula's wife, was not arrested.

 
The alleged attack began after the couple's gray Dodge Durango hit the Paakaulas' green Chevrolet while trying to pull into a parking stall, according to a police affidavit. Neither car was damaged, the witnesses said.

The teenage boy in the Chevy got out, angry his vehicle was struck and allegedly began yelling profanities, calling the other driver "f----g haole" and kicking the driver-side door, according to the affidavit.

A 43-year-old female witness, who asked not to be identified, told the Star-Bulletin that the teen began punching the man, who was still sitting in the driver's seat.

The affidavit said the 23-year-old woman got out of the Durango and tried to push the teen away from the vehicle and her husband. At that point the teen's mother jumped in and started fighting with the woman, police said.

The witness said the teen's mother got on top of the woman and began punching her.

Paakaula then came out of the Baskin-Robbins holding ice cream cones, and his wife told him that the other woman hit her, the witness said.

Paakaula allegedly "punched the woman in the face, picked her off her feet and slammed her onto the asphalt," apparently knocking her out momentarily, according to the affidavit.

Another witness, a 65-year-old woman who also asked for anonymity because of fears of retribution, said the woman flew back 10 feet, landing under her car.

The driver of the Durango had gotten out of the car, was allegedly punched in the throat by Paakaula and fell to the ground gasping for air, police said. The teen then allegedly kicked him in the head and face, causing him to convulse, police said.

The teen's mother finally told him to stop after "she sees blood pouring out of this guy's mouth," the 43-year-old witness told the Star-Bulletin. The man's legs pointed straight out and quivered for 15 to 20 minutes, while a nurse in the crowd called 911 and said "he's seizing," she said.

The couple were taken to the Queen's Medical Center in serious condition.

The affidavit said both received concussions. The man's eye socket and upper jaw were fractured, and his wife sustained a fractured jaw, nose and wrist.

The older witness told the Star-Bulletin that she was disturbed by the use of racial slurs.

"It's really sad to see," she said. "You would think that we as Hawaiians would have outgrown that."


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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 08:39:50 AM »

Thai70:

Terrible.  Folks, lets turn this into a case study.  What did the assaulted family do well, and what could be improved?

1) The man getting punched through the window:  What are the options here?  Rolling up the window may put the teen in prime striking range.  Drive the car backwards out of the parking spot?  If the car was turned off, could you start your car and get it in gear?  How useful is it to point the left elbow in an effort to spike/defang the attacking fist?  What options are there for preparing one's driver area with weapons for just such a scenario?  What are the legal issues of doing so?

2) What about the woman/wife&mother? getting out of the car?  Yes the general rule is stay in the car, but it appears her man was in trouble-- can this action be faulted?

3) One sees the terrible process of escalation.  The teen's mother, having beat up the wife/mother, then sics her husband on the wife mother with brutal consequences and the haole husband, having gotten out the car to defend his woman gets dropped very hard.  How to fight a Samoan when unarmed?  What are the legal issues in Hawaii/our respective states in bringing weapons into play?  Would a folder be enough?  If that is the option at hand and one believes deadly force to be appropriate, what is the best way to go about it?

« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 07:38:14 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
Colby
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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2008, 12:52:33 PM »

Howdy everybody,

I am a new poster, but have occasionally lurked here for months.  This topic prompted me to post.  I am no expert, but have had exposure to some different ideas regarding personal safety/defense in a car.  First, the car can certainly be used as a weapon.  Samoans are big, but not too many are as big as a car.  Once the situation escalated to the point where the teenager started kicking the car, the driver should have left the scene and contacted the authorites.  In defense of a life, I don't think that I'd hesitate to try and use the car as a weapon to at least make the bad guy think twice about what they are trying to do.  Barring that reaction, I would have looked for a tire iron the moment the female was struck by the male, or at the very least break off a car antennea and hope it doesn't break while using it.  My reasoning is that the level of force was escalated by the male, and I have to follow the force continuum to take control of situation and defend a life. 

Another idea is to have an uncrated, protective dog in the car.  Isn't there an old gypsy phrase that goes something like "One man and one dog equals three men."?  I did a little protective training with my old dog (female Boerboel--carjacking scenario) and she busted out one of my car windows to take a bite.  If a dog isn't a good deterrant, you will have a problem on your hands.  My thoughts on having a dog like this were that the animal would provide me with at least a couple of seconds of reaction time (possibly more), and the mere presence of a decent-sized dog is sometimes deterrant enough.  Either way, its good to at least test your dog and see if they have these instincts if they are ever truly needed.

Respectfully,

Colby

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thai70
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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 02:24:29 PM »

It seems everyone did something wrong in this situation.  the kid shouldn't have gone ballistic.  The wife should NEVER, NEVER, NEVER have gotten out of the car.  And nobody should be beating on women, let alone power slamming them to the ground. 
it was a tragic situation all around and a poor showing for the aloha state.
I don't want to do the 20/20 hindsight stuff.  the fisrt thing someone is taught about self defense is not a punch or a kick, it is situational awareness.  whaat can i do to stay out of trouble, and i'm not talking about locking yourself in a bubble.  the male vic should not have tried to squeeze into the spot.  I've been to that shopping center.  the spots are tiny, even for a sub-compact car.  hawaii parking lots have dinky little spots, but everyone drives big ass trucks and suv's.  he was driving a durango and the bullies had a truck.  he could have looked for another spot.  if push comes to shove there is a parking lot across the street or additional parking in the back and he could just walk with his family.  if he really wantd the spot, and the family was sitting in the back of the truck, he could have asked them to guide him in.
tom   
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JeffP
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 07:29:14 PM »

I work on a variety of military/govt installations and have received a variety of vehicle training in response to assault/attack.  One common thread that runs thru it is also common to other defenses as well: give yourself room to maneuver.  Back into parking spaces to mnimize your exit time.  Don't wedge your car into tight, indefensible spots.  When waiting at a stop light or turn lane, leave room in front of your car to allow you to pull a quick 180 (thru the median if necessary).  A lot of it boils down to situational awareness.  The woman leaving the car was a horrible idea... but putting myself in that situation, I would have trapped the teenager's arm and pulled it as hard as possible to bring his head into contact with the car roof.  A quick "power window trap" of the arm may have been possible as well?  I certainly wouldn't leave a highly defensible position like the inside of the car, and as stated previously, the car is a weapon.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 07:53:29 PM »

Great to see the participation on this.  The process of collective analysis helps us all.

A hearty amen on room to maneuver the car!  I believe I averted a carjacking one time precisely with this technique.

As far as using the car as a weapon, perhaps I am reading too much into it, but I am picturing the car already turned off when the excrement hits the fan and the driver's window down.  Who knows, perhaps the key was already removed from the ignition?  Question:  Under these circumstances with a vigorous assault coming in through the window, could you start your car up and get it in gear?

Also a hearty amen on the merits of a serious dog-- but not everyone wants or can have such an animal in his/her life.

I find it hard to second guess the woman getting out of the car.  Her man was under attack and behind the reactionary curve.  Is she just supposed to sit there and do nothing?

Backing into parking spaces is a traffic infraction here in LA-- apparently lots of arguments get going when someone wants to back into a space and the following car has pulled up too close for this to be possible. 

Tire iron?  Great tool-- are legal issues presented by keeping it in the cab of the truck?.  If stored in back in the spare tire well it probably is not accessible in timely manner.

In some 30 states, CCW is an option for those who take the time to go through the necessary process.
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thai70
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2008, 01:20:12 AM »

Ok, i'm starting to dig the discussion.
My father was a cop so i had a head start on the situational awareness thing.  The suggestion about grabbing the guys arm is really good.  It is something I mentally picture doing.  Visualization can be an effective training tool.  So can a partner, but i don't think dogzilla will let me bounce his head off my car roof to practice.  heh, heh,  grin nice visual.
It also got me thinking about what type of weapon to carry in a car.  tire iron is good, but inaccessable, and i thnk LE will wonder why you have a tire iron between the seats in the front.  i thought of a knife, but that discussion has been done to death (legallity, what to carry, where to hide it so it is deployable, where to stick the guy, if to stick or stab, etc).  I know a guy who had a sawed off pool cue, but that could be a prob with LE. 
The best i've head to date was my buddy, Jimmy "the Saint".  Long dstory about the name.  anyway, he was an escrimador and thai boxer (gruhn, you might remeber him from the skeller) he actually taught me a bunch.  anyway, he used to carry a slightly undersized aluminum bat it the car.  one night on the way home from bartending at the VIP (if you went to PSU, you'll know it.  surrouonded on three sides by trailer parks).  jimmy noticed a car with three guys following him.  at the lstop ligth they started to exit their vehicle and jimmy did the same wiht his bat.  He told them, you might kick my ass or worse, but i promise i'll take at least of of you with me.  it worked, they left.

wow that was a ramble.  Can you tell i've given this topic thought over the years.
tommy
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Colby
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2008, 07:30:41 AM »

What Leviathan, Craftyand Thai said about room to manuever is probably the most important thing to keep in mind.  You always want to leave enough space between you and the car in front of you to be able to drive around them.  I was told that you need to be able to see the bottom of thier rear tires, but you may need a bit more space than that.

There is a cool manuver you can do to escape, but you need lots of room behind you, and I wouldn't recommend doing it in your own car (rentals are sure handy).  It's been years since I've done it last so my description may be a little off.  The scenario is that you drive up to a roadblock.  Put the car in reverse, you let go of the steering wheel with your right hand, turn in your seat as far right as you can so that you can see clearly behind you.  Then you punch the accelerator and gain as much distance as you can.  Once you get to the point you can turn the car, let off the accelerator, and stomp on the brake while "throwing the streering wheel out of the driver's side window".  This will spin the car around like you see in the movies.

I used to have one of those little bats Thai mentioned.  I think that they are called tire thumpers here locally.
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maija
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2008, 06:31:11 PM »

A friend of mine was getting money late at night, at an ATM I think. As he was walking back to his car that was parked in the parking lot, he saw a group of 3 guys pull up near by. One starts to walk over towards his car. My friend has no martial arts training, is not a fighter by nature, but is 6'4'' and quite large, so has generally not needed to deal with people stepping to him.
He saw the guy split off towards him, but he carried on to his car and had time to get in and turn the key but not close the door before the guy pointed a gun at him and demanded the money and the car aswell.
The guy was standing close enough so that when my friend put the car in gear and pulled away, the guy got knocked over by the door. My friend got away fine, but ended up with 3 bullet holes in his door and a shattered window from a 4th.
Talking with him later, he is conflicted as to if it was the "smart" thing to do, but as he said, he did not know that was what his reaction would be until it happened.
He also believes that because only 1 of the 3 came over, it was probably a gang "test" or something, in which case the guy lost face especially as he was knocked over. He wonders whether he would have fired at him otherwise.
As far as handy implements to carry in the front seat, how about the ubiquitous ballpoint pen? Most convenient for close quarter usage .....

Here is a link to a friend's site in Germany, go to the left side menu to "Main Focus On Technique" for a couple "inside the car techniques".
http://www.selbstverteidigung-pur-com.de/html_en/index1.html
Aside: Andreas has hosted Maestro Sonny Umpad in Germany, and there a 2 short clips of him in the "Videogallery" section.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 10:12:41 PM by maija » Logged

It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first.
Miyamoto Musashi.
AussieJon
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2008, 07:31:17 PM »

Hi all

I'm a new guy from Australia, we dont have such a big issue with car jackings here but lots of road rage ect.

two general tips for vehicle situations

1. if someone is trying to smash a window eg. to get into the car to get at someone, don't wind the window up all the way as this baces around all four edges of the glass making it much easier to break, if you've ever broken a board before you'll get what I mean it's much easier to break something if it's held in place securely, with the top of the window unsecured it will move a in the frame.

Obviously you can't leave the window wide open and if the attacker is determined and given the opportunity eventually something will give but in my limited experience this does help.

2. If you're looking for a potential weapon that can be kept in a car steering locks are great, I don't know if they are common where you are but here in Australia they are very common and would be my first port of call if I felt I needed something to defend myself, most of the common models extend and retract and lock in place so it's probably worth considering beforehand what the best position would be eg. fully extended for more range ect. I'm thinking you would also want to make sure its locked so that bits aren't sliding around.

this might seem like obvious common sense stuff but hopefully it helps someone.
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Erik Lilliedahl
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2008, 12:59:39 AM »

Long time lurker first time poster.

Wouldn't taking the first action be beneficial in this situation defensive or agresive?  A) That action being backing up and getting out of this situation altogether before the punches start flying? OR B) Once it becomes obvious that harm is coming your way strike first with a car door or the great suggestion of "car club" type weapon?  I realize legal issues arise at this point but in hind sight, bail money and a trial sounds better than convulsing in a parking lot.

In my experience which is very limited I found acting first usually results in a better out come for me.  A quick example of my thoughts: I lived Hollywood in a not great part of town.  One night while sitting in the passenger seat of a running vehicle in my drive way, a stranger jumped into the driver seat shut the door and threw the car in gear.  Before any words were spoken I attacked him and forced his head between the seat and the window pillar while I continued to strike.  On new cars the doors automatically lock when the car is put into gear.  This created a very large problem for all in the car.  I had two friends in the rear seats who couldn't get out.  The car jacker wanted to leave but couldn't get out either.  He he finally figured it out and exited the vehicle.  Point being striking first put me in the upper position even though it was a kind of ambush.  To my supreme luck he had no weapon.   
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