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Author Topic: ____"MASTERS OF ARNIS, KALI & ESKRIMA"____  (Read 11319 times)
book worm
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« on: September 19, 2003, 07:59:54 PM »

hello,

i'm doing some research on Filipino Martial Arts, the Masters who practiced, and their contributions to society in general--here and in the Philippines.

there's a book that i can't seem to get a hold of anywhere, written by Mr. Sulite, titled "Masters of Arnis, Kali, and Eskrima".

if anyone out there has a copy of this book, i can borrow or buy from, it would really make my day--week.

thank you.
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Lazyhound
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2003, 08:44:31 PM »

http://www.lamecoeskrima.com/catalog.htm
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book worm
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2003, 11:16:21 PM »

thanks, but i've already contacted mrs. sulite in palmdale.  she said all three books are out of stock and are now out of print. Sad
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Stickgrappler
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"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog


« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2003, 02:49:27 PM »

woof:

i don't have the URL handy or recall the correct name, but i should be able to look it up at home. there's a bookstore in san francisco which sells many Pilipino books and i've a friend in the past who told me he got some MA books from there that is not commercially availalbe elsewhere.

is there  a specific GM you had a q on or just a general research q on the GM's?
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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
book worm
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2003, 03:39:58 PM »

thanks grappler!

the specific GM i can't seem to get any info on is manong John Lacoste.  except for what manong Dan Inosanto wrote in his book and what the Dogbrothers have on this site, i just can't get any more info on him.

the research concentrates mainly on bisayan eskrimadors and the San Nicolas district in Cebu.

thanks again for your help!
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Stickgrappler
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2003, 04:06:03 PM »

i will dig up my copy tonight and see what i can find for you. i don't recall anything on Manong LaCosta.

there was an interview with Guro Inosanto.
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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Enganyo
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2003, 05:22:26 PM »

Stickgrappler is referring to Arkipelago Books http://www.arkipelagobooks.com/

They specialize in mostly Ernesto Presas' materials but email them anyway. Generally, not a lot on Manong LaCoste but you're on the right track though.
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book worm
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2003, 06:24:06 PM »

the very least questions i want some answers for are:

when was manong John Lacoste born (when did he die)?

where was he born? (i've heard cebu, but that info has still yet to be verified.  manongs Floro Villabrille, Anciong Bacon, the Canetes, and the Illustrisimo clan are all from Cebu)

i read he was a labor leader in Stockton.  at what capacity did he perform this role? was he involved in the Farm Workers movement in the 60s?

when did he immigrate to California?

hopefully, i can get more details, but the above is a sufficient start.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2003, 07:12:22 PM »

An article covering his death may be found at http://www.dogbrothers.com/teachers.htm
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Stickgrappler
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2003, 08:18:57 AM »

woof:

my friend i posted of is Enganyo. he beat me to it.

and Guro Crafty beat me to posting the URL to an article on Manong LaCosta's death.

i have the book with me now at work. if you have some other q's, ask away, and i'll see if the book has the info.
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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
book worm
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2003, 10:30:25 AM »

i contacted arkipelago books, and they too have ran out.

so, i guess i'm gonna have to grill you with questions (thanks by the way!)

1. how many eskrimadors are mentioned in the book? (are there any new info on manong john lacoste in the book, as per my questions posted above?)

2. of those, how many are from cebu specifically? and how many are bisaya (from leyte, bohol, cebu, negros, n. mindanao, etc)? what are their names?

3. when were these masters born (the year would be sufficient)?

4. what did they do for a living?

i hope that's not much, i'll post more if i come up with anything else. thanks again.
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Stickgrappler
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2003, 11:50:04 AM »

woof bookworm:

did you check http://www.bakbakan.com?

i just noticed that it was a bakbakan int'l project and edited by rey galang.

IIRC, Enganyo reviewed this book. hopefully he will have the URL handy.

-------------------

quick reply now:



1. how many eskrimadors are mentioned in the book? (are there any new info on manong john lacoste in the book, as per my questions posted above?)

[/b]


32 in part 2 and in part 3 13 for a total of 45. some of the masters are interviewed and include some technique sequences. some of the masters are only pictured and identifying their style they represent.

i don't see any info on manong lacoste. i will read the guro inosanto pages when i have a chance.



2. of those, how many are from cebu specifically? and how many are bisaya (from leyte, bohol, cebu, negros, n. mindanao, etc)? what are their names?

[/b]

unfortunately i don't think the masters were broken down by location, so i would actually have to check each master. this will take time.



3. when were these masters born (the year would be sufficient)?

[/b]

IIRC, not many of the masters birthdates were given. again, this wil take time as i reread each master.



4. what did they do for a living?

[/b]

i'm pretty sure, but going off of memory, many if not all, the jobs of the masters in the book were not mentioned.

i don't think i'm much help. sorry. but give me a little time. i'll be back to you.
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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Stickgrappler
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2003, 12:51:34 PM »

just reread the Guro I interview. not the info you are looking for, but i will type up anyway as it gives you background info/context:

ES:  Could you tell us, Guro Dan, some details regarding your birthplace and your Filipino heritage.





DI:  I was born on July 24, 1936 in Stockton, California. During the 1930's, Stockton had the largest Filipino population in the United States. Far larger than the Filipino communities in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Seattle, Chicago or New Orleans. As a matter of fact, it was the largest Filipino community outside of the Philippine Islands. It earned the name "Little Manila" because of the variety of Filipino regional groups that came and settle there in the 1920's and 30's. Although there are still around 30,000 Filipinos that live in the Stockton area, French Camp. Lathrop and the Mateca area, they are a vanishing breed because of the continuing move to the bigger cities and the effects of intermarriage.



(snip)

ES:  Can you tell us about your instructors in the Filipino martial arts?





DI:  I have trained with a lot of instructors. Some for a very long time while with others I have only trained for a very short time, mainly due to constraints of time and distance. In Stockton, I trained under and received instructorship from Master John Lacoste, ...

In the Los Angeles area, I continued my training under Master John Lacoste of Stockton, California. ...



pgs 262-263
the book is copyright 1993 Socorro Publications

edited:  for formatting of bold and italics
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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
book worm
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2003, 11:43:47 AM »

thanks, grappler... it's not much, but it is better than nothing.

if you have the chance, can you also list the names of those masters?

now, i guess, for the more technical questions on full contact eskrima:

(i've never watched any DB videos, nor have i witnessed any matches of theirs, although hopefully i'll get to view either one or both)

i was wondering if the sinawali has ever been used in by the DB in these full contact matches, and how effective was this technique?

also, for the various disarms, commonly practiced by balintawak types...how effective were they in your matches?

[tangent into curiousity]

thanks again.
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Stickgrappler
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2003, 12:29:13 PM »

answers to easy q's first:

yes, sinawali has been used at Gatherings (double sticks). one of the goals of DBMA is to be able to fight with either hand (and either foot forward as opposed to the common right hand right foot forward structures) and sinawali is good training towards that goal. in the first set of DB vids, Real Contact Stick Fighting, vol #3 teaches sinawali.

re:  disarms, i'm not familiar with the various disarms commonly practiced by balintawak types, but there are at least 5 generic disarms and Top Dog (Eric Knaus) addresses disarms in vol #4 of the RCSF. it rarely happens and there were 3 disarms the DB found most common:  the snake disarm (overhooking the stickarm) and 2 more which i forget the specifics to but essentially, your "alive hand" has control of the stickarm and your stickarm either hits down or hits up from below the stickarm for the disarm.

re: listing of masters in  the book, it will take me some time to type them all up. i will do a few at a time when i have some downtime from work.
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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Enganyo
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2003, 01:40:50 PM »

Here's the complete list of Guros from the "Masters"
Pt 1 considered old school, Pt. modern
Gualberto Sillar
Manasseh Arranguez
Francisco Lucenara
Jose D. Caballero
Marcilino Ancheta
Pablicito Cabahug
Billy Baaclo
Ireneo Olavides
Eulogio Canete
Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete
Maj. Timoteo Maranga
Johnny F. Chiuten
Filemon E. Caburnay
Prudencio "Ondo" Caburnay
Hortencio Navales
Jerson "Nene" Tortal
Jose Binas
Jose Villasin
Teofilo Velez
Guillermo Tinga
Helacrio Sulite Sr.
Helacrio Sulite Jr.
Antonio Illustrisimo
Antonio Diego
Christopher Ricketts
Epifanio "Yuli" Romo
Jesus Abella
Andrew Abrian
Abdul Haj Qahar Maduena
Jose G. Mena
Pablicito Cabahug

Pt. 2
Leo T. Gaje Jr.
Remy Amador Presas
Reynaldo S. Galang
Dr. Guillermo Lengson
Rene Navarro
Amante Marinas Sr.
Arnulfo "Dong" Cuesta
Narrie Babao
Prof. Florendo "Vee" Visatacion
Dan Inosanto
Gerry Gallano
Leonard Trigg
Wolfgang Mueller

Re: Balintawak disarms. This one is tricky, I recently crossed hands with a former Balintawak player from one of Villasin's students. Prior to this, I thought Presas Arnis was Balintawak, but I was wrong.

I don't recall seeing any Balintawak specific disarms in the DB footage I've seen. BTW, I recommend you at least see "The Grandfathers Speak".
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Stickgrappler
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2003, 01:54:16 PM »

Enganyo is da man!!
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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
book worm
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2003, 03:44:10 PM »

wow, more than half of these folks i've never even heard of!!! i've got to get a copy of this book.  how many pages is it?

as for balintawak... manong remy presas is among the third generation (maybe 2nd).  balintawak is an off shoot of doce pares.  manong anciong bacon, whose style was the corto linear, finally had enough of the youngest canete, cacoy canete and decided to part ways. opened up a club on balintawak st. near colon in cebu city.  his first generation of students included delfin lopez, atillo, mongcal and i believe maranga.  the second generation included, chiuten (kung fu turned eskrimador), velez, and villasin.  out of the second generation, came bobby taboada, nick elizar, bobby tabimina (this guy was anciong's last prodigy), etc.

anciong bacon was incarcirated for murder in the late sixties (self defense, but since he was a known mater in arnis, the judges felt he should've used restraint).  this was during the hey day of doce pares vs. balintawak fight fest.  in prison, he made a name for himself as a sophisticated brawler.  he fought multiple opponents at once.  this eventually went to the higher ups, all the way to general ver, prez. marcos' chief of staff.  both men, ilokanos, were eskrima connoiseurs and loved to watch a good match.  mr. bacon provided the expertise, while they provided the fighters.

the events inside the prison would later give marcos an idea--national promotion of eskrima as the new national sport.  when anciong finally got out of prison, he was over the hill.  a younger eskrimador, would later bask in light, first lit by bacon and claim the fame, cacoy canete.

i'm surprise, manong edgar sulite didn't include anciong bacon in his book.

oh yeah, and these folks (balintawak) are really big on disarms, but shy away from the sinawali (they call amara) techniques.

keep the info coming!!!
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2003, 04:27:49 PM »

Woof All:

  Briefly in the middle of a busy day:

1)  PG Edgar's book is awesome.  DO FIND IT.  

2) Disarms do happen.  I've done some, including snake with my leg from guard on two different occasions.

3) I love siniwali, and obtain superior results with it in comparison to my single stick.  Siniwali started coming into play more around 1995-96 and there are now many players who like it.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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Enganyo
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2003, 05:54:41 PM »

274 pgs, B&W photos and newspaper print, which unfortunately wrinkles easily and fades if exposed to continual photocopying.

Gotta try that leg disarm.

Bookworm, I've heard about the Chicken story and the duel with the Espada Y Daga fighter. Hell, I might 'drag' my friend over here so he can chime in.
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Muestra
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2003, 07:44:52 PM »

Quote from: book worm
wow, more than half of these folks i've never even heard of!!! i've got to get a copy of this book.  how many pages is it?

-snip-

 out of the second generation, came bobby taboada, nick elizar, bobby tabimina (this guy was anciong's last prodigy), etc.

me:  You forgot Ted Buot and Rocky Pasywicz.

-snip-

i'm surprise, manong edgar sulite didn't include anciong bacon in his book.

me:  Yes he did.  There is a picture of him and all the vanguard of Balinatwak in there.

oh yeah, and these folks (balintawak) are really big on disarms, but shy away from the sinawali (they call amara) techniques.

me:  Correct.  Balintawak does not practice sinawalli.  The style does have a variation in the empty hands corridas / hubod lubad / muestra transition that is a variant of espada y daga.  Although Balintawak does not call it that since it does not do stick and dagger in the truest sense.  As for the amara, it is difficult to say in what context the various sects of Balintatwak have it or not.  That is a purity of lineage issue which I will leave to the scholars.

keep the info coming!!!

me:  I hope it has been helpful.

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book worm
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2003, 08:29:54 AM »

thanks, muestra!

hey, does manong ted buot have a website? is he still teaching in michigan?

if you could add more names to the very short list i've provided, that'd really great.

did u train under ted buot? if yes, i was wondering if you guys too utilize the padagan drills in your training. i'm trying to figure out who systematized the padagan.  i heard it was atty villasin, if this is true why do all balintawak folks use this high speed padagan?

there's atillo balintawak in california, he was pretty much ostracized by the whole balintawak community, yet he too uses padagan.
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Muestra
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2003, 03:27:37 PM »

Quote from: book worm
thanks, muestra!

hey, does manong ted buot have a website? is he still teaching in michigan?

me:  Here is his brother's web site...

http://www.balintawakeskrima.faithweb.com/new_page_1.htm

His student Rocky Pasywic's (sp) web site does not exist anymore.

if you could add more names to the very short list i've provided, that'd really great.

me:  Just enter Balintawak Eskrima or Arnis on Google and you will find plenty.  Here are some links to them...

http://www.balintawakseminars.5u.com/favorite_links.html

http://johnvillasin.8k.com/favorite_links.html

did u train under ted buot? if yes, i was wondering if you guys too utilize the padagan drills in your training. i'm trying to figure out who systematized the padagan.  i heard it was atty villasin, if this is true why do all balintawak folks use this high speed padagan?

me:  Nope.  My senior did meet him and his head student, though.  Other than that, I have no idea what padagan means.  My teacher, who was cebuano, did not want us to learn the language.  He said it just complicates the art.  The little Cebuano I learned is nopt worth a damn.  He did teach us in the old style and ways, though.  Pick up an olisi and have at it...

there's atillo balintawak in california, he was pretty much ostracized by the whole balintawak community, yet he too uses padagan.

me:  Personally, I don't get into FMA politics.  If there has to any fighting, do it in the ring.  I would like to learn with any Balintawak instructor in order to understand their interpretation of Balintawak.  I learned GM Bobby Taboada's Balintawak and I liked it even though I was not used to it.  I would have liked to have learned with Ted or Sam Buot but they are kinda' far away and difficult to get a hold of.  Very reclusive and private people they are.  Another I would have liked to have learned with was Bob Tabimana.  Anybody that has anything to offer, I'll learn from whether they are controversial or not.  It doesn't matter to me if their quality as an individual and their training is sound.  FWIW.

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Muestra
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2003, 03:44:21 PM »

Quote from: Enganyo
274 pgs, B&W photos and newspaper print, which unfortunately wrinkles easily and fades if exposed to continual photocopying.

me:  Yes.  The book is fragile and brittle.  It is printed in the Filipines where it had to be affordable for people there to buy.  I have seen comic books and newspapers printed here that were more durable.

Gotta try that leg disarm.

Bookworm, I've heard about the Chicken story and the duel with the Espada Y Daga fighter. Hell, I might 'drag' my friend over here so he can chime in.

me:  The short of it is... the chicken story had to do with a very telegraphed knife thrust / stab follow through from the assailant.  The guy ended up a corpse with a broken elbow, broken knee, broken jaw, fractured skull, and a stab wound to the heart.  It was done in one exchange.  My teacher examined the corpse and learned and taught us the actual sequence for the technique.

There were two incidents.  One was an two stick fighter where he got a power blow to the middle sinus on the top of the head and collapsed backward from the knockout.  Another had to do with a stick and knife fighter where he was trapped and got knocked out.  In both caes, single olisi and gaurd hand defeated dual weaponary... albeit fighting through it to victory did occur with significant injuries.  Matches usually didn't last more than fifteen seconds and rarely to thirty.  FWIW.

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Guest Only
Guest
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2003, 07:47:59 PM »

so, who was your balintawak teacher/instructor, muestra? i'm just curious, cuz i heard most balintawak instructors are in cebu, and the ones that try to pass off as balintawak here in the states are really not the real deal, just riding on the name.
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Hakoko
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2003, 09:15:28 PM »

I came across this and thought it might help. I hadn't looked at it, but will post it anyways.

http://www.islandnet.com/~gmzimmer/balintaw.htm
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Muestra
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2003, 12:29:31 AM »

Quote from: Guest Only
so, who was your balintawak teacher/instructor, muestra? i'm just curious, cuz i heard most balintawak instructors are in cebu, and the ones that try to pass off as balintawak here in the states are really not the real deal, just riding on the name.


me:  Unfortunately, you have been mis-informed.  From your implication, I am sure your agenda is more than curiosity on your part.  I am not one to call somebody names but if I was to interpret the comments another way, I would percieve it as trolling.  Regardless, you would be suprised to learn that many high level adept authentic lineage instructors are here in North America but because people aren't clued in or hooked up, they usually don't get to train with them.  These people are not part of the McDojo or black belt mill franchise of schools.  They usually teach out of rented space in community centers, other people's schools, their backyard or basement, parks, etc... and train hard knocks old school.  The fees are almost non-existant, if there is any, and you put in your time, dedication, and committment.  Loyalty and dedication, without bitching, whining, and complaining are the means of payment.  Most of the underground people don't seek notoriety and the potential students that do seek then out are pretty serious about their training for getting skilled and for reality.  The students usually end up staying a long time.  You are either part of the ones in the know or you are not.  Most, if not all of them, don't care what other people think because they are too busy training.  They don't care about name and rep and they don't have to ride off the coat tails of anybody.  They just go about their business with less talk and more do.  What's funny is that adpets like that can't give it away but those that are marketing a watered down product rake it in.  I guess people would rather give away their money and john henry / creidt card rather than put in their sweat and hard work.

The creator of the webpage is my senior in the above posted link.  The rest who are pictured are my "brothers" from the history of the club.  I trained and dedicated the bulk of my MA training to that club to learn the system completely.  Our mutual teacher resides in a location where I was formerly from.  He was raised, grew up and was educated in Cebu.  He left for greener pastures and because it got too crazy for him to stay.  I am the one in the animations with the pony tail.  What is most interesting is that they are still evolving and improving.  In some ways it saddens me that I had to leave.  I still mourn a little when I go back to visit.  Satisfied?
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2003, 04:06:59 PM »

Muestra,

you're so dramatic!!! wow!!!
you could've just said Dr. Dom Lopez. He was a student of Villasin, and Villasin was a student of Anciong Bacon.  

but, i did somewhat appreciate the drama, i almost felt like crying.  
by the way, you're not an exception...

Quote from: Muestra
The fees are almost non-existant, if there is any, and you put in your time, dedication, and committment. Loyalty and dedication, without bitching, whining, and complaining are the means of payment.


this is common practice among balintawak teachers.  it's how they teach their art in cebu.  Dr. Dom Lopez is one of real ones.  i was just curious who your teacher was, that's all.  you did not have to become all political and presumptious.
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Muestra
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2003, 04:27:19 PM »

Quote from: Guest Only
Muestra,

you're so dramatic!!! wow!!!
you could've just said Dr. Dom Lopez. He was a student of Villasin, and Villasin was a student of Anciong Bacon.  

me:  You dissed and are dissin' me now.  I don't know you.  You don't know me.  You came on making a PRESUMPTION and STEREOYPING people without getting the FACTS.  Without giving anybody a chance to give further details, you insinuated by implication of something negative.  I don't respond well to people that troll or poke me with a sharp stick.  It is not only disrespect you showed to a fellow combatives practitioner but you showed disrespect as a human being.  You did this to somebody who you don't even know.  I don't know you but I know $#itty behavior.  Your words speak for themselves.

but, i did somewhat appreciate the drama, i almost felt like crying.  
by the way, you're not an exception...

me:  Again, there you go with dissin't me again.  Also, you are contradicting yourself.  First you imply that there are no people from Cebu training and teaching Balinatwak in North America or outside of the Filipinnes.  Now you are saying I am not the exception.  Excuse me while I get out of the way from you when you fall off your high horse or pedestal and land on top of ME.  I don't want to be crushed by any falling objects, thank you very much.

Quote from: Muestra
The fees are almost non-existant, if there is any, and you put in your time, dedication, and committment. Loyalty and dedication, without bitching, whining, and complaining are the means of payment.


this is common practice among balintawak teachers.  it's how they teach their art in cebu.  Dr. Dom Lopez is one of real ones.  i was just curious who your teacher was, that's all.  you did not have to become all political and presumptious.

me:  I didn't become political and presumptious until you went and did a drive by.  When somebody sprays bullets at me I do two things... dive for cover or fire back.  In this case, you caught me on a bad day and I did my best to be diplomatic.  Despite you playing the double agent, which you instigated with your statements from before, I did my best to give you a decent answer about my credibility.  Looks like you are satisfied.  But you know more than me so why bother asking me all the questions?  I don't know j@ck $#it.  I expect an apology coming to me, at least.

This conversation is ended.  I am done.

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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2003, 05:14:51 PM »

did you major in theatre or drama?

lighten up, bro... it was a simple question. no need for over-reaction.

get over it.
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