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Author Topic: Case Study: Bystanders doing nothing...  (Read 5168 times)
SB_Mig
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« on: April 28, 2008, 01:30:04 PM »

I'm interested hear peoples' reactions/thoughts on this incident:

WARNING! EXTREMELY GRAPHIC

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1199672787/Man_in_Holland_Brutally_Stabs_his_Girlfriend_Repeatedly

I'm not totally surprised by the lack of bystander reaction, but I am surprised at the mild attempts to stop the violence. It's almost as if the bystanders don't want to hurt the attacker.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 06:56:50 PM by SB_Mig » Logged
Guard Dog
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2008, 04:34:14 PM »

I think you should change "fairly" to extremely.  I have a really hard time watching clips like this.  I am amazed that she was stabbed what looked to be numerous times in the neck and didn't bleed out in a shorter amount of time.  It also seemed that her boyfriend was on A LOT of drugs.  I wonder if she made it or not.
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
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Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 08:03:32 PM »

The lack of manly response from bystanders is pathetic.

OK folks, specifically what do you do?
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2008, 08:12:10 PM »

The knifer (I don't wish to call him a boyfriend anymore), is focused entirely on the women.  As soon as I found this out I would immediately turn it into a two on one battle to get the knife away from the women.  While he is mounting her, more specifically "S" mount it would not be hard to pull him off of the women to the side he is S-mounted via his knife arm.  This would minimize the worry of getting stab as I was pulling him off of her and lessen the chances of the knife getting closer to her again.  I'd most likely take the knife to the ground and put my knee/foot on his hand to get the release of the weapon.  While this is murder, I don't think I would feel the right to kill him with his own knife if it became a battle for the knife.  Even after he is off of her in the clip you can tell he is out of it not really realizing what is going on so I don't think he would have attacked me.  Then again, anything could happen.
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
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peregrine
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2008, 10:07:44 PM »

Arm thyself and take to beating him to get him to cease.
I like the sneak up on him and throw a towel or shirt over his head whilst taking a step back meeting the back of his head to to the pavement.
And yes you are not isolating the knife(though you are at 'zero pressure'), but a more important rule is his body must go where his head does.


EDIT- think slamball into pavement.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 02:23:03 AM by peregrine » Logged
SB_Mig
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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2008, 12:49:07 AM »

A couple of possibilities come to mind...

1) If multiple bystanders present, enlist one or more to distract the assailant.
2) Throw a shirt/jacket/bag over the assailant's head to obscure his vision.
3) A solid kick(s)/blow to the assailant's head.
4) A "bum rush" strike/tackle from his non-knife side. At the very least it would get him off of the victim.

There are many options, but I think in this case keeping it simple would probably work best.
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bruce
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 01:43:27 AM »

hi,

my first post ...

i think it is lack of bravery in people that allows them to stand by and watch a person being attacked. if a person sees another person being attacked and not able to defend themselves it is the persons who are standing by to stop the aggression. it is easy to type "i woulda ..."  but i would have stopped the guy fast and hard.
you must make a quick judgement call to decide if your getting involved is justified.
it said in the caption that she lived and he got 4 years in prison  ...

best,

bruce
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Maxx
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2008, 10:42:09 AM »

Oh man that made me kinda pissed. I like how nobody threw a running captain kirk kick to his guys head! I can only think of one thing I would have done right off the bat. Picked up a hard object like a brick, Rock, Tire Iron and did the mad dash at high speed and brained this guys right in his head...

I saw a guy there with a stick and he stood there. He should have done a couple mad run bys with it and aimed it at this guys head.

If that does not work..Break the damn broom stick and shove the sharp end into the guy.

I don't know why I watched that , Cause now it just ruined my day
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maija
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 01:54:05 PM »

Different situation, but worth linking to here. Previous thread about  'bystander apathy' : http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1218.0
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Colby
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2008, 02:28:51 PM »

I am surprised at the mild attempts to stop the violence. It's almost as if the bystanders don't want to hurt the attacker.

That video clip made me sort of sick to my stomach realizing that I could'nt do anything to put a stop to that crap.  I bet there were half a dozen tire irons within 50-ft of that incident, and probably more heavy improvised projectiles.  Even snapping him in the face with a belt would have been better than what those guys did.

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Growling Dog
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2008, 01:46:47 AM »

He first time I saw this vid it stayed with me for a few days, the pathetic attempts of the people around this incident made me sick.  the guy is like a wet blanket on her he is not paying attention to anything but the victim, put the camera down and kick him in the head as hard as you can hard  nothing fancy, I agree with you guys as far as the environmental weapons that surround the tier irons sticks rocks ect. Hit him till he stops twitching and openly invite the people around to join in
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Hawke
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2008, 07:52:57 PM »

Source: ABC News

Quote
Police killed a 27-year-old man as he kicked, punched and stomped a toddler to death despite other people's attempts to stop him on a dark, country road, authorities said.

This happened over the weekend in Northern California.
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Kaju Dog
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2008, 05:20:34 PM »

WTF  huh

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080909_Psycho_hammers_subway_passenger.html


Posted on Tue, Sep. 9, 2008


Psycho hammers subway passenger
By DAVID GAMBACORTA
Philadelphia Daily News

gambacd@phillynews.com 215-854-5994

As the SEPTA subway train rocked forward, a thirty-something guy leaned over near the doorway and gently planted a kiss on the little boy at his side.
When the train neared the Fairmount Avenue stop shortly after midnight on Thursday, the man reached out like an adoring parent and directed the 3- or 4-year-old tyke to an open seat.

Then he flew into a monstrous rage.

Without uttering a word, police said, the unidentified man whipped out a double-claw hammer and began bludgeoning a 20-year-old man who was dozing off in his seat.

For five long minutes, SEPTA surveillance cameras captured the deranged attacker - who was still on the loose late last night- digging his hammer into the man's head and neck.

Through it all, disgusted investigators said, at least 10 passengers stood by and did nothing as the random attack moved from the train to the platform, when the hammer-wielding maniac tried to push his victim down onto the train tracks.

When the beating was finished and the suspect fled with the little boy, the victim staggered back onto the train, bloodied, confused and alone, said Detective Kenneth Roach, of Central Detectives.

And even then, no one tried to help him.

"Somebody should have helped this guy," Roach said. "I understand the [other] guy had a hammer, but they outnumbered him at least 10 to one."

Miraculously, the victim took the subway up to Temple University Hospital, received several staples and sutures and was discharged, Roach said.

The motive remains a mystery.

"I'm baffled," Roach said. "He had no reason to do that. It was unprovoked. The victim was just going home from work, minding his own business, listening to his iPod."

Roach said that the victim, whose name was not released, boarded the subway at City Hall.

The attacker - a bearded, stocky, 5-foot-9-inch black man who wore a yellow shirt and black pants - also got on at City Hall, with a youngster who may or may not be his child.

The victim and the hammer-toting psychopath never exchanged a word or a glance, Roach said.

"According to the victim, there was no contact or verbal discussion," he said. "They didn't even notice each other."

The hammer was hidden in a black-and-yellow book bag that the attacker clutched throughout the short subway ride.

The little boy dashed off the train with the other passengers during the brutal beat-down, but was later seen running back on to recover the book bag. The boy and the suspect are seen on camera leaving together.

Roach described the attacker as "very dangerous" and asked anyone who knows him to contact police at 215-686-3093 or -3094. *
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Ronin
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2008, 06:33:58 AM »

WTF indeed Huh
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Maxx
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2008, 09:08:40 AM »

Wow. I guess at this point you ask yourself "Maybe I should take this folder out of my pocket and stick this guy in his Liver.
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Punyojoe
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2008, 03:34:54 PM »

I'm hesitant to watch but get the point.

If you wear pants you probably have a very useful, versitile weapon with you always. Your BELT!

Buckle to the face, choke, whip, subdue...

What do y'all think?
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Kaju Dog
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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2008, 05:40:23 PM »

Don't get complacent.  Not that the guy deserved it, but putting on your headphones and taking a nap on public transportation screams I WANT TO BE A VICTIM.  I don't think he will be doing that again. 

A lot of times I put in headphones to just to give others the impression that I cant hear them, but the whole time my music is off and I am listening to everyone/everything.  Originally I started doing this at the gym so that I could avoid the social hour and be left alone to focus on my workout.  I hate guys that go to the gym and sit on a machine just runnin there mouths.

 undecided
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maija
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« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2008, 06:11:31 PM »

I learned to wear sunglasses and earphones in NYC to avoid unwanted attention. But no music and no sleeping, especially on the subway.

I would love to know what phrases work best on people to get them moving/helping etc. They say that yelling  "Fire!" works better than "Help!". Is that true? What about in this case - 10 people against 1 with a hammer ?
Have there been any studies done comparing how people react when different words are shouted? Would simply getting up and starting doing something motivate others to help, or would it take yelling commands? How about quietly enlisting help from the closest person ... "I'm going to X, You go round and do Y" ....
I suspect that the guy with the hammer would keep having an advantage if attacking each person in turn, and each person did not trust the next to join them in helping so no-one did anything. 10, 5 or 3 against 1 OK, but a series of 1 against 1 ... not so good. You need a group effort.
Any ideas?
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It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first.
Miyamoto Musashi.
kain
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2008, 05:20:51 PM »

i don't see how those bystanders sleep at night. i wouldn't. especially the jerk with the camera. evil prevails when good men standby and do nothing.
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Ronin
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« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2008, 06:16:10 AM »

Supposedly its human "nature", in terms of groups, to take the easy way out or to be reactive, in other words, I am sure that someone was waiting for someone else to make the first move.
As we have seen in other clips where people to, eventually get involved, its usually one person starting it and then other follow suit.
You actually never see multiple defending someone, though you see many multiples attacking someone.
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maija
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« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2008, 09:13:50 AM »

I agree. Of course everyone was thinking that someone else might start first, or that this was not their problem, or that they did not know what to do. or that they were afraid of getting hurt etc.
The stupid part is that AS A GROUP they could have subdued this guy even if 1 on 1 they may not have been able to.
Leo Giron said that the reason he got back into teaching was because of an incident involving an attack on a group of nurses, who AS A GROUP could have dealt with the attacker had they known what to do.
If there is an OODA loop, as talked about in the "sucker punches" thread, that can be broken to stall an attack, is there an equivalent apathy loop that can be broken in a case like this?
I'm not looking for Shakespeare's Henry V or a Leonidas speech to get people motivated, but if I, or other people willing to get involved in a critical situation need to enlist the help of others, what's the best way to do it? Do any of the LEO or military guys have any insight?
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It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first.
Miyamoto Musashi.
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2008, 10:24:04 AM »

"if I, or other people willing to get involved in a critical situation need to enlist the help of others, what's the best way to do it? Do any of the LEO or military guys have any insight?"

A very good question from Maija.  Although LEOs and military may be much more likely to have such experience(s), ANYONE with any experience is encouraged to speak up.
 
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Ronin
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« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2008, 10:37:58 AM »

Typically, as a group, you need to subdue without too causing too much bodily harm, but again, someone with a knife or weapon has added "deadly force" to the equation so if he gets banged up a bit, not that much of any issue, as long as he is not killed.
Restraining the individual is the goal, but fact is, very few between know how to do that.
Typically it is safest to get him in a "head lock" and get a few people on him and his "weapon", disarm him and hold him there, while someone calls the police of hist the emergency stop in a subway.
The best way is to jump him from his blind side and get a hold of his weapon arm and just hold on with superiour numbers.
I am sure there will be a few that get their licks in and that is "OK" too.
Untrained people need to rely on sheer numbers and weight.
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Kaju Dog
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« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2008, 04:53:22 PM »

IMHO, in this or similar situations, there is rarely time to enlist the help of anyone.  You either act, or do nothing but sit in shock untill someone kicks you in the ass.  He who hesitates dies. 

Just my .2c's from  watching people freeze in combat.  Sometimes you gotta just snatch someone up to get em to move. 

Yip grin
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maija
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« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2008, 05:55:39 PM »

I like the idea of "snatching someone up". Just grab em and go.
Perhaps 2 people becoming active (i.e. a change in the situation) would be catalyst enough to get others motivated, even if 1 of the 2 wasn't exactly 'highly motivated'?
How about direct eye contact, pointing, or commands - "You!" or "Move!" or "Now!"  or "Get Him!" ?
Seems like this kind of crisis situation knowledge would be valuable not only in this scenario but for any time when a group effort was required (natural disaster, accident etc).  Surely there must be some studies on this? I've seen studies on the bystander apathy part, but not on how to change it.
I guess the big question is, how do you turn passive inactivity to constructive activity when needed?
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It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first.
Miyamoto Musashi.
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2008, 06:27:09 PM »

Perhaps it is as simple as shouting "Lets Go!  Lets work together to take him down!  Help me stop him!"  TAKE CHARGE!  e.g. "You in the red shirt distract him from in front! (unspoken "While I attack from behind")  or "You, tackle low while I tackle high."   Simple SPECIFIC COMMANDs e.g. "I have the weapon arm-- you in the blue shirt grab his other arm, you in the red shirt kick him in the balls"
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maija
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« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2008, 07:24:50 PM »

"TAKE CHARGE" - Absolutely.
I'm sure you are right about the ultimate simplicity in the thing, I was just curious about the choice of words etc. Like I said in my first post, I had heard that "fire" works to attract attention better than "help", and was wondering what else works better or worse. Also I know that singling out an individual for a task works well - "YOU do X, NOW", but what if everyone is looking away or have not seen it happening? If you are the first person to notice an incident, how do you get attention ? I suspect that just saying "stop him stop him", or "OMG" or whatever might not be effective -  A mighty roar of outrage perhaps grin
Just looking for ideas from those that might have dealt with this more than me.
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It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first.
Miyamoto Musashi.
Kaju Dog
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« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2008, 12:21:36 AM »

Unless Im sitting next to someone that I know will have my back...  I don't trust anyone.  To assume that because you directed X to do this and Y to do that.  You are going into a situation that you are taking on the assumption that someone else will be with you.  More often than not, you will jump into action and they will let you die.   angry

Violence of action, even if you throw someone into the mix against their will, they will be put into a possition to either distract the baddy or become an asset to you. 

IME you rarely have time to plan things and as they said in the Marines, A plan is only good until the first round is fired. 

If you show some balls, that will hopefully get others to step up.  Lead from the front...  I believe that if you are already reading this on the DB's forum, you are the type that will be right behind me or getting in my way of gettin some... 

 wink cool
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maija
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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2008, 09:12:32 AM »

Thanks C-Kaju Dog! Great advice.
"Violence of action, even if you throw someone into the mix against their will, they will be put into a possition to either distract the baddy or become an asset to you".
That's what I was going for - distraction or asset. Glad it makes sense to you, though I can see that you can't really rely on anyone in the end apart from yourself..... sad

This may seem unrelated, but I have been reading Erik Durschmied's book "From Armageddon to the Fall of Rome. How the Ancient Warlord Changed the World".
It's based on contemporary accounts of ancient battles, looking at the strategy and tactics of the leaders of the time.
What links the book to this thread for me is this idea of leadership, and how one person can have an affect on others and how humans react together as a group, either with great heroism against odds or to cut and run.
Perhaps that's why I am interested in this 'case study'.
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It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first.
Miyamoto Musashi.
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