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Author Topic: Pre-emption and Sucker Punches  (Read 10801 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: May 10, 2008, 07:26:13 PM »

Woof All:

As people who seek a harmonious path in Life, our training must prepare us for unequal initiative/pre-emption/sucker attacks.   All our training with equal initiative can get completely mooted if we are taken out of the fight before it starts.  We need to appreciate just how quickly can be done.

Spotting cues is a very, very important part of being able to handle this .  My friend Southnark has developed "managing unknown contacts" to a high level and organizes the most likely cues into four categories.  Around here we will call them "The Southnark 4". 

Study for effectiveness, and for cues:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cuCF1B_Muas

Two-fer!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOTlr-CYCC4&NR=1

Anyone else have some good clips in this vein?

TAC!
CD

========

Edited to add:  I have added the term "sucker punch" to the title of the thread because I realized that this distinction needs to be added to the conversation.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 08:16:30 AM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
peregrine
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2008, 10:35:12 PM »


Some or all of these can occur.
blading the body
weight shift
look around
fist clench


The first video was not exactly your run of the mill sucker punch.
His cues were fairly subtle, usually people look around more(it may have more to do with moral bias of them doing something taboo, this guy was in the right from what i saw in the video- the guy came back) and there is a longer setup. Another excellent point is he checked the other guys right hand.  This actually reminded me of a technique John Lewis showed me, possibly picked up from Judo Gene. *guy gets in your face, go for double bicep control, spin the guy around and rnc aned step back.


The other video was too hard for me to see much.

Prevent the sucker punch by awareness, verbal dissuasion, and a mental line in the sand.
One must also consider the personal space of the area you are in. City personal space differs in being smaller than rural personal space. The world is right hand dominant and even boxers have a favorite punch. Other things to consider are body mechanics, weapons and physiology... the eye is designed to see things a certain way and things can 'fly under the radar'.
Watch for weapon reaching,

Samoan Robert had a nice panatukan technique today from the hands at the low. It reminded me of Samoan slap dancing.



This guy 'never saw it coming'
Note all the cues ^ 18-20sec...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7QVDIFn0-_c

I highly suspect he was identified a lot earlier and possibly followed into the McDonalds. Prey look and act like food.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=y0jmIW6tEeE
Note in general bad guys attack others who they believe they can prevail against. Again check for the cues.
Special note the leg pass to side control/knee on the belly... the guy had training.

There is a book i really wanted to get from paladin press but i can't seem to find it now as i have forgot the title, but the author from my recollection was a decoy for SFPD and mugged thousands of times.

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David
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 03:30:25 AM »

Living in New Orleans I not only know a number of people who have been "sucker punched", but also one who was stabbed by a stranger walking by...not even robbed, just a stab and run by a total stranger.  It's very difficult in populated places such as the French Quarter to keep your distance from people, but I don't know of anyone who was attacked in such an environment without an extended verbal exchange first. 

My strategy has always been to avoid verbal exchanges, to keep going, and to keep my distance when approached by someone.  Even in a crowd, when someone asks you for a dollar, the time, etc., just keep on walking, or start walking.  If you're followed, maintain the distance.  If you can't maintain the distance, then it's time to act.  I used to tell my students, when you're threatened and cannot escape, it's time to attack.  No well meaning person is going to keep pressing you if you've tried to moved away and voiced your intention.  If someone does press you further, something is wrong.  Of course I'm not advocating nailing someone for asking you what time it is.  But you can move away, tell the person you don't have the time/money/whatever, and use your hands/arms as a barrier with great preparedness if he continues to approach, all the while being non-threatening...not provoking a fight.  With training, you better be able to pick up the signs/body mechanics that someone is about to launch into an attack from a few feet away.  You could clearly see them in the first video.  The attacker even cocked back. 

I can't imagine many, if any, scenarios that just keeping your distance and avoiding people you don't know won't solve.  Do you guys really think it's more complicated than that?  Maybe I'm taking too much for granted, but I'm not going to let someone get close enough to hit me without having time to react unless I'm in a crowd.  Common courtesy dictates that you don't walk past someone with no space when no one else is around.  YOU can maintain the distance.  And if you're in a crowd and someone hits you...well there's no amount of training that's going to prevent that...aside from ninja like super consciousness!

I guess I do have a video with one potential solution, but it might not bode so well in court: http://www.hertao.com/abouthertao.html (video at the bottom of the page).

David
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 03:32:34 AM by David » Logged

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peregrine
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 12:08:32 PM »

My strategy has always been to avoid verbal exchanges, to keep going, and to keep my distance when approached by someone.  Even in a crowd, when someone asks you for a dollar, the time, etc., just keep on walking, or start walking.  If you're followed, maintain the distance.  If you can't maintain the distance, then it's time to act.  I used to tell my students, when you're threatened and cannot escape, it's time to attack.  No well meaning person is going to keep pressing you if you've tried to moved away and voiced your intention.  If someone does press you further, something is wrong.  Of course I'm not advocating nailing someone for asking you what time it is.  But you can move away, tell the person you don't have the time/money/whatever, and use your hands/arms as a barrier with great preparedness if he continues to approach, all the while being non-threatening...not provoking a fight.  With training, you better be able to pick up the signs/body mechanics that someone is about to launch into an attack from a few feet away.  You could clearly see them in the first video.  The attacker even cocked back. 

I can't imagine many, if any, scenarios that just keeping your distance and avoiding people you don't know won't solve.  Do you guys really think it's more complicated than that? 

You touched on several points worth noting.


The interview and distance. The interview is often done to finalize target selection and possibly to circumvent the victims thought process prior to attack.

I will digress your statement on the attacker cocking back. His hand came from the low ready then contacted. Your definition of cocking back and mine must differ.



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maija
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 05:56:08 PM »

Peregrine, Interesting comments about the first clip. I had a quite different feeling about it.
Seemed to me that the guy in the leather jacket set up the other guy from the moment they separated at the beginning. Looked to me as though he motioned him back with some kind of taunt with the express idea of hitting him. The guy in the green seemed to be drunk, or at least not as together as the leather jacket guy, and this he uses to his advantage. He keeps the guys arm checked just in case he decides to throw, but also to draw him close enough and keep his attention away from the other side of his head where he lands the hit.
The casual look away by leather jacket guy turns his shoulder back to cock the hit. The guy in green was really not very smart.
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peregrine
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2008, 06:54:30 PM »

I can't imagine many, if any, scenarios that just keeping your distance and avoiding people you don't know won't solve.  Do you guys really think it's more complicated than that?  Maybe I'm taking too much for granted, but I'm not going to let someone get close enough to hit me without having time to react unless I'm in a crowd.  Common courtesy dictates that you don't walk past someone with no space when no one else is around.  YOU can maintain the distance.  And if you're in a crowd and someone hits you...well there's no amount of training that's going to prevent that...aside from ninja like super consciousness!

Being able to quantify a threat is more realistic than just avoiding the world. By having the ability to quantify allows one to break that skill down and to pass the skill on to another because it goes beyond the subconcious street sense that some individuals have learned. More importantly, some of the common habits people have learned to avoid unkowns can lead them into trouble- positive reinforcement of a negative behavior- this includes highly trained martial artists. An example of this would be to continue walking pass an individual who asked you the time.
This may have worked the thousands of times in the past with other vagrants, beggars, and untouchables. But this time what you have not noted is the guy asking you for the time now has just crossed the street to do so, his partner is running up ahead and his right arm is not visible because he is shielding it with his structure.


Addressing the point of being attacked in a crowd, one should first understand target selection. Commonalities do exist when being the victim of a crime. (Revenge or vendetta type attacks differ but do have commonalitries as well). One must see the forest not just the trees, the strategy beyond the technique. Some of these commonalities in victims are- inattentiveness, uncoordinated gait, insecurity, temporarilly occupied.
Walking in a crowd people need to still be aware, and if you do see a potential threat you continue to keep a perspective on them while scanning for others... if there are none you continue on your way and attempt to avoid them. Distraction, deception and perception are all the tools of criminals ranging from muggers, pickpockets and various toilet scum.

You mentioned one should  " With training, you better be able to pick up the signs/body mechanics that someone is about to launch into an attack from a few feet away.  You could clearly see them in the first video.  ."
Who was about to attack who? why? what specific actions? why was it being videoed?
Dojo and ring training differ from reality based training. Your school deals with real world self defense so these may be understood by you but not people in general. Again the need to quantify and put into a skill set or words street sense so that the skill may be passed down, practiced and discussed.  My contention is there needs to be a link to recognize signs of a potential attack and or of being set up. Dealing with an attack once it is immenant or even being set up will leave you behind the power curve. What i contend is that the point of being threatened needs to be quantified. So that you may nip the issue in the bud.

Maintaining distance with your hands up in a non threatening way is called a fence.

Some other points on cheap shots worth noting are the false submission and distraction- verbal, visual or a combination. All designed to by-pass your ooda loop so that you are attacked when you're attempting to process information.



Maija i agree the guy in grreen was not very smart. It also violates my new rule since youtube is so popular- if someone is videoing you and you don't know why be ready to bust out the prowrestling.
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peregrine
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2008, 07:47:14 PM »

from my perspective-
Pre emptive strike = an attack deemed 'necessary' on an identified threat to prevent further loss of position

Sucker punch = an attack without warning or provocation
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David
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 03:17:51 AM »

Peregrine,

I agree with most if not all of the points you make.  Our differences may be largely semantic.  I know the terminology...fence, interview, etc.  I also know the terminology from wing chun, most FMAs, I can speak some basic Japanese, etc., but I don't use any of it unless I must.  First, I think that many people, especially new-comers on a forum or website will have no idea what you're talking about if you call someone sizing you up an "interview", or a pull and punch a "lop sao da".  Mostly for that reason I tend to stay away from in-group terminology whenever possible.  Second, I like to keep things as simple as possible.  Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that you shouldn't be using the terms you are...just trying to make myself understood. 

Regarding someone asking for the time, if an old couple asks me for the time I'd stop and tell them what time it is.  I base that on the individual(s) and I strongly feel that the vast majority of people are capable of sensing who you can very safely stop for, who is questionable, and who you should certainly not stop for.  When I was teaching, which I have not been doing since Katrina, I talked to all my students about these things.  I don't specifically remember any of them not crossing the street if they were approached on the same side of a block by a person who likely had the potential to be aggressive.  And, no one I taught would not have paid attention to a person who crossed the street directly toward them.  We discussed being alert as to places where a person could hide behind, not walking close to corners or bushes, etc.  BUT, to me, and what I tried to get across to my clients, is that all of this is an extension of "keep your distance".  You keep your distance not only from people who could pose a threat, but also from places where people could hide, etc.  As you very well know, maintaining your distance is not a magic tool.  Someone can encroach on it anyway.  So my simple "rule" was, if you're threatened and you cannot escape, attack.  Attempt to maintain distance, and if you can't, something is very wrong. 

I agree with you about distraction, deception, and perception, but still I think this can be covered by maintaining distance and being aware of your surroundings.  For law enforcement I think things are a bit different.  I taught a number of cops, and obviously they've got far greater needs in this area since they need to get close and stay close to potential attackers to a level much greater than non-leo's.

Anyway, I feel this is a relatively simple part of self-defense.  Be aware of your surroundings, keep your distance, and attack when you feel threatened and can't escape.  Spend the vast majority of your time training physical self-defense so you're ready if the above fails to keep you safe.  It could be that I'm over-simplifying here, or that most of the people I taught self-defense to in New Orleans were already very aware based on the place they lived and the fact that they were coming to take self-defense classes.  I have noticed that in places where there is far less crime that people do things I would consider ridiculous with respect to distance, etc.

David
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peregrine
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 01:22:44 PM »

David-
yes i think it was mostly semantics.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2008, 02:00:02 PM »

As someone born and raised in Manhattan, NYC, I easily indentify with the points Davd makes here-- yet IMHO these hueristics tend to apply more to anonymous strangers whereas many sucker punches come with people known to us to some degree, or with whom the social context makes "Stay Back!" a social disaster. 
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Jonobos
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 09:25:21 PM »

Upon careful scrutiny I definitely feel that the guy in the black jacket set that up with his friends. The question of why it was recorded was already asked. Going on the context of only what we can see it looks like the guy in green is the antagonist. But if we read into it a little more one wonders why we don't see the start of the conflict? Also, the guy in black certainly made no attempt to leave the scene, and although green did come back for some reason, he did actually try and leave. Black also very clearly cocks his body off to the side hiding his right hand while green remains squared up. Black creates distance, but it is the perfect distance for the sucker punch, does the classic "look around," and launches. It seems totally premeditated when I take all these things into consideration. Its almost a step by step example of what to look for...
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 02:38:59 PM »

Ah, the sucker punch. Source of much amusement and distress during my years as a bouncer.

Per Crafty:

Quote
Spotting cues is a very, very important part of being able to handle this.

Per David:

Quote
...maintain the distance.

In my experience, very rarely is someone sucker punched without both of these factors coming into play. 99.9% of the people who are sucker punched miss at least one.

McDonald's punch out victim states, "I noticed this other fella had followed me in and was standing to my right". That would at least get my spidey-sense tingling. Create distance, i.e. have him order first while you watch or just step away.

Having situational awareness will greatly reduce your chances of getting sucker punched. If they can't reach you, they can't hit you. And if they're close enough to reach you, why aren't you reacting?

Part of the problem is that many people view actions such as crossing the street to avoid confrontation, not engaging "interviewers" (re: when asked the time), or moving away from another patron at the bar as rude, and as a result find themselves in situations that often lead to trouble, i.e. the sucker punch.

Here are a some of examples where the victim should have "seen" the punch (or at least recognized the precursors) coming a mile away:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=I_sa3tP9TZw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxSEIP040zM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6uWy_CPJ4&NR=1

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CD8WlStHRFg&feature=related


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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2008, 03:18:21 PM »

In the first one of those I spot a cue which Peyton Quinn (Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling, others) discusses-- the interruption of the natural coordination of alternating hand and foot while walking (when left foot forward, right hand is forward, etc).  Here as the hitter approaches we see in his final steps this coordination is no longer present.

The clip with blind side cheap shot is an important reminder of "the three Ss": "Stupid people in Stupid places doing Stupid things". 

Also we see here important studies in what observers (presumptively on one side or the other) do and do not do.

I noticed this one while looking at these:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg_G6DeqbEM&feature=related  You go girl!
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peregrine
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2008, 06:19:44 PM »

Some of those videos always amaze me how the people who got ktfo just stand around as the victim continues to get some form of abuse/harassment.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 08:28:51 AM »

Many of the clips we have seen so far have been young male escalations involving "the three Ss", but, we also want to be thinking about other types of situations as well e.g. criminal assault and other more serious matters.   Here, from the WT forum, we have an example of an Israeli man not likely to get sucker punched.  Yes there are variables here quite different from what most of us have in mind (being armed with guns, the socio-political dynamics involved) but notice his final comments about disrupting the prospective attacker's mental process; this I think is a key point for the discussion here in this thread:
==================

I was asked in a couple of PM's to write up some examples of "spontaneous jihad".  Spontaneous jihad is when a lone muslim gets the idea to go and an act of murder as party of an isolated terrorism.

Case #1

In the first incident I was driving an unmarked jeep from Jerusalem to the north of Israel to teach a week long in service training for snipers. In Israel we have different colored license plates for our vehicles. Yellow and black plates for Israeli citizens both Arab and Jews, blue or green for Palestinians, red plates for police vehicles, Black with white letters for IDF and white with black letters for diplomatic vehicles. The jeep I was driving had yellow and black plates on it and inside the jeep I had green plates and also red plates that I could put on the Jeep if I saw the need. The jeep had a siren and pa system and a kojack blue light, along with two sets of radios law enforcement and IDF radios.

I left Jerusalem heading north through Ramallah in Samaria AKA northern part of the so called west bank. As I had a bunch of equipment related to the teaching of the course, I didn't want to be bothered by taking either my sniping rifle or my M16 rifle, so I was armed with a mini Uzi and a Glock 21 pistol which happened to be the first one that entered Israel.

Since I was going to be in for a long drive I was wearing the Glock in an IWB holster carried cross draw and was wearing the mini Uzi with the stock folded and the sling around my neck carried muzzle down between my legs. The Uzi had two mags in it and I carried four more if I remember correctly more in my left cargo pocket of my pants.

The weather was warm and while I drove I was drinking water to keep hydrated and about 30-45 minutes north of Ramallah I felt the need for a pit stop so I pulled the jeep over and walked away from the jeep which was parked along side the two lane country road. I walked away from the jeep into the brush as a means of concealment so if the jeep attracted unwanted attention I was away from it and hidden so I could then take the correct action if need be.

As I got ready to do my business I moved the Uzi from around my neck hanging down like a neck tie would, so I moved the weapon to my left shoulder, The reason being if it should happen to slide of my should it would not effect my aim, which could have resulted in wet pants.

I had just started when a Hamas looking Arab approached me from the right side asking me if I needed help. I replied that I was fine and he should freeze or suffer bad things to come. He kept walking towards me starting in on the usual BS we are family, we are cousins let me help you.

I told him that just because my forefather Avraham slept with some arab whore did not in my mind make us family and we all should learn that having sex with arab whores is not the thing to do.

My response was not what he thought he would get as it was far outside the norms of the middle east, which by the look on his face caused his thought process to short circuit which gave me time to finish and get myself together as it were. He then started to walk towards me again.

I told him he was either a terrorist looking for a victim or he was a fag but the end result would be the same that I would kill him where he stood. I then pivoted so he could see I was armed, which made him freeze.

He then got this grin on his face and said Yahud, Jew if every Jew was like you their would never be a Palestinian state but most Jews were week and they would get their state in the end and then he walked off.

He was later found by the IDF and had a large knife.

Case #2

I was going to meet a friend from Sweden in the old city of Jerusalem for lunch and then to take him around the old city. I was dressed in civilian cloths i.e jeans t shirt and sandals and kippah on my head. I was armed with a micro Uzi and a Hi Power that I carried cocked and locked but under my t shirt.

I had just entered the old city via the Yaffo gate and was walking across the open area that is just inside the gate before you get to the maze that is the old city.  I was walking toward the east for those of you that have been in the old city and to the north was 3 or 4 members of the "blue" police civilian police and to my right was a group of 8-10 arab males aged 18-25.

One of the arabs walked away from the group and approached me asking if he could see the micro uzi, I told him he was insane and to get away from me. He again started with the family crap as he started to walk with me. I told him to get the hell away from me.

The arab the lunged at me grabbing for the Uzi, I gave him an elbow strike to the side of the head and grabbed him with my left arm wrapping him up and talking him down with me to the street while I drew the Hi Power from under my shirt.

I stuck the pistol into his face and thumbed the safety off, he was stunned by the blow to the head and before I could blow his head off out of my periphery vision I saw people running towards me. Thinking I was about to gt swarmed by his friends I raised the pistol towards the people running at me.

The people running towards me happened to be the police, I ordered them to grab the group of arab males and to get a pair of cuffs so we could cuff up the asshole I was sitting on.

The whole time I had in my right hand a cocked and unlocked Hi power which was loaded with hollowpoint ammo, at a time 99% of Israeli government and civilians were still using ball ammo.

We cuffed up the now bleeding arab and then I knew that virtue was the better part of valor so I removed the mag from my Hi Power and removed the round from the chamber and since I carried the `13 round mags down one round I just topped off the mag.
The cops were amazed at how fast I had been able to draw and chamber a round since at the time most of the people carried condition 3. I didn't have the heart to tell them that I carried with one up the tube and cocked and locked.

From the group of arabs we learned that when he saw me and the micro uzi he wanted to try to take it since with such a weapon he could murder a lot of Jews.

The thing that both incidents have in common is spontaneous jihad, since both attacks were unplanned and were done at the spur of the moment. The question is how can we identify those hadji's that might be leaning to spontaneous jihad, we can't.

So how do we defend against it?

By never letting your guard down and being ready to be as un-PC as you can be if their is a verbal dialog leading up to their desired attack.  I have noticed that by being very crude about the family connection and other things tends to short circuit their thought process, it is the mental version of getting of the X.

Yoni
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Maxx
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2008, 10:59:57 AM »

This is a great fight. Pro Skater Mike V fighting 4 guys

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pOWZFQ1SPaI&feature=related
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2008, 11:05:46 AM »

Quote
My response was not what he thought he would get as it was far outside the norms of the middle east, which by the look on his face caused his thought process to short circuit

In his book, "Dead or Alive:The Choice Is Yours" Geoff Thompson lists abstract question asking as both a deterrent/confuser and as a an action trigger.

As a deterrent/confuser:
This is generally used in the early part of the run-in before the adrenaline has started pumping.  "How's your brother/mother these days?" "Is your sister's name Mary?" "Don't you know my cousin, David?". This can be a series of questions wherein your "recognition" of the attacker may buy you time, or plant the seed of doubt in their head (Maybe this guy really does know someone I know)

As an action trigger:
An action trigger would be defined as something that prepares you mentally for your pre-emptive strike while throwing your adversary off guard. It can be a simple question or something abstract that makes no sense at all. As Thompson writes,  "A submissive question is also a subliminal indication that you wish to prolong the conversation, whereas shorter sentences, certainly single syllables, send the message that the conversation is coming to an end." (and that fight is about the start)

"I'm sorry I didn't hear you, what did you say?"

"What was the score in the game tonight?"

"Did you see that chicken video?"

I saw a bouncer use the abstract question technique one night with an extremely drunk client. No matter what the drunk would say, the bouncer kept asking things like "What is your favorite color?", "Can you fix a radiator?", "Do pickles give you gas?". It completely disarmed the drunk by keeping him mentally off-balance. So much so that he forgot about the fight he was about to get into, mumble something about "Too confusing..." and wandered off.

Not that a prolonged line of questioning would work in a sucker punch situation, but a single abstract question can buy you some time.

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SB_Mig
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2008, 11:08:56 AM »

Quote
This is a great fight. Pro Skater Mike V fighting 4 guys

What's the great part? Him starting a fight because he was called a "skater fag", him picking on 4 teenagers, or him throwing punches without being threatened?

Looks like more like schoolyard machismo at work than a real dangerous situation.
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Maxx
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2008, 11:25:01 AM »

There is more into the story..You would have to watch CKY video to hear the rest of what happend. Thats just a edited version of what happend and those teenages were 25 and up. They had been at a local bar..Pretty old for some Teen agers.  grin
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2008, 01:22:54 PM »

Two sides of the story:

Warning, there are some porn links on the webpages.

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1162467626/Mike_Vallelys_Side_of_the_Jock_Fight_Story

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1162189209/The_Story_Behind_Mike_Valley_Fighting_4_Jocks

Either way, Vallely comes off as a tool, as does everyone else in his crew.

He could have just walked away. But apparently that would have been too easy.

Ego and testosterone, a losing combination.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2008, 03:41:01 PM »

"In his book, "Dead or Alive:The Choice Is Yours" Geoff Thompson lists abstract question asking as both a deterrent/confuser and as a an action trigger.

"As a deterrent/confuser:
"This is generally used in the early part of the run-in before the adrenaline has started pumping.  "How's your brother/mother these days?" "Is your sister's name Mary?" "Don't you know my cousin, David?". This can be a series of questions wherein your "recognition" of the attacker may buy you time, or plant the seed of doubt in their head (Maybe this guy really does know someone I know)

"As an action trigger:
"An action trigger would be defined as something that prepares you mentally for your pre-emptive strike while throwing your adversary off guard. It can be a simple question or something abstract that makes no sense at all. As Thompson writes,  "A submissive question is also a subliminal indication that you wish to prolong the conversation, whereas shorter sentences, certainly single syllables, send the message that the conversation is coming to an end." (and that fight is about the start)

"I'm sorry I didn't hear you, what did you say?"

"What was the score in the game tonight?"

"Did you see that chicken video?"

"I saw a bouncer use the abstract question technique one night with an extremely drunk client. No matter what the drunk would say, the bouncer kept asking things like "What is your favorite color?", "Can you fix a radiator?", "Do pickles give you gas?". It completely disarmed the drunk by keeping him mentally off-balance. So much so that he forgot about the fight he was about to get into, mumble something about "Too confusing..." and wandered off.

"Not that a prolonged line of questioning would work in a sucker punch situation, but a single abstract question can buy you
some time."

=========

Excellent post.
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peregrine
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2008, 06:57:14 PM »

Quote
My response was not what he thought he would get as it was far outside the norms of the middle east, which by the look on his face caused his thought process to short circuit

In his book, "Dead or Alive:The Choice Is Yours" Geoff Thompson lists abstract question asking as both a deterrent/confuser and as a an action trigger.

As a deterrent/confuser:
This is generally used in the early part of the run-in before the adrenaline has started pumping.  "How's your brother/mother these days?" "Is your sister's name Mary?" "Don't you know my cousin, David?". This can be a series of questions wherein your "recognition" of the attacker may buy you time, or plant the seed of doubt in their head (Maybe this guy really does know someone I know)

As an action trigger:
An action trigger would be defined as something that prepares you mentally for your pre-emptive strike while throwing your adversary off guard. It can be a simple question or something abstract that makes no sense at all. As Thompson writes,  "A submissive question is also a subliminal indication that you wish to prolong the conversation, whereas shorter sentences, certainly single syllables, send the message that the conversation is coming to an end." (and that fight is about the start)

"I'm sorry I didn't hear you, what did you say?"

"What was the score in the game tonight?"

"Did you see that chicken video?"

I saw a bouncer use the abstract question technique one night with an extremely drunk client. No matter what the drunk would say, the bouncer kept asking things like "What is your favorite color?", "Can you fix a radiator?", "Do pickles give you gas?". It completely disarmed the drunk by keeping him mentally off-balance. So much so that he forgot about the fight he was about to get into, mumble something about "Too confusing..." and wandered off.

Not that a prolonged line of questioning would work in a sucker punch situation, but a single abstract question can buy you some time.



Good example.

This is circumventing the persons thought process through what many self defence and reality based systems are calling OODA loop. Observe, orient, decision, act.
Basically your ooda is moving faster than his is allowing you to have the drop on him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_Loop



The Incident Command System calls it APIE, analyze, plan, implemnet, evaluate.
But it's all the same, you're thought process is faster all the while you're trying to impede his by forcing introversion using distraction, decpetion and perception.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 07:10:01 PM by peregrine » Logged
peregrine
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2008, 06:59:11 PM »

This is a great fight. Pro Skater Mike V fighting 4 guys

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pOWZFQ1SPaI&feature=related

I always liked that one.
Note the guy in the middle, the guy with the staff and at the end the guy with what appears to be a blade.

here's another clip of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV9mZy0zork&feature=related
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 07:07:35 PM by peregrine » Logged
David
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2008, 01:53:44 AM »

I think the idea of interrupting the potential attacker's thought process or "OODA loop" is a good one.  Whenever I'm in a situation where I pass someone on the sidewalk who could potentially be an attacker I look them in the eye and say, "hey, how are you doing?".  Most people are obviously not used to this and it visibly throws them off.  I prefer it in a passing situation because it doesn't draw attention or have the person think, does he know my mother?  No, he doesn't, WTF...you don't know my mother MFer...

Crafty's mention of "stupid people in stupid places doing stupid things" is one of the most important to me.  If you're not in stupid places doing stupid things you're going to avoid the VAST majority of conflicts.  And when trouble comes your way, leave!  A cop I used to teach said he had a good trainer many years back who told him "distance is time".  There's nothing more true than that.  If you can cross the street before the potential attacker gets close, or put something between you, that will also completely prevent the "sucker punch".

If someone significant is approaching me from behind I either cross the street or stop and move off his line of approach a few steps, pretending I'm looking at a building or something.  Walking into the street to put a car between you, to get a better view of a house/building, is also a good strategy.  If the person approaching you follows, you've probably got trouble. 

David
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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2008, 11:06:22 AM »


The way each of us uses verbalizations will be and should be different.  With regards to where Thompson says "whereas shorter sentences, certainly single syllables, send the message that the conversation is coming to an end." (and that fight is about the start)"
that often I use very brief answers to make clear that there is not to be any further dialog.  For example to an ominous request for money, typically I simply answer "No."  I NEVER say "Sorry" which is something I see many people do.  The abruptness of the answer is intended to make clear, as Thompson notes, that I will not be intimidated and that any further harassment will not be tolerated.
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peregrine
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2008, 11:10:00 AM »


The way each of us uses verbalizations will be and should be different.  With regards to where Thompson says "whereas shorter sentences, certainly single syllables, send the message that the conversation is coming to an end." (and that fight is about the start)"
that often I use very brief answers to make clear that there is not to be any further dialog.  For example to an ominous request for money, typically I simply answer "No."  I NEVER say "Sorry" which is something I see many people do.  The abruptness of the answer is intended to make clear, as Thompson notes, that I will not be intimidated and that any further harassment will not be tolerated.

For some situations-
I've found "BACK OFF!" to be my default. Sounds close enough to F off to cause an effect. While i have one hand up, palm to opponent like a cop telling a car to stop. This serves several purposes, shows them in body language i don't want anything to do with them, so they will stop/back away, if they don't then they in my mind have other than innocent plans. It also creates a fence, a physical barrier between them and myself, depending on the severity and proximity i may elect to keep my palm at my waste and just flick my hand up, or higher up my chest if i feel endangered.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2008, 06:06:48 PM »

Extremely relevant in all this is the notion of "Prepare your witnesses".  Good verbalizations are both decisive and good at communicating to observers that your intention is defensive.  In contrast, if the first thing observers notice is a fight already under way and you are fortunate enough to win, they may describe you as the aggressor.
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michael
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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2008, 11:48:17 AM »

I've been through SouthNarc's class where he discussed Managing Unknown Contacts, and it is excellent. Most of it is material that is unknown outside of law enforcement circles, and his many years of being robbed while acting as a decoy have given him a unique insight that most do not have.

I have found that a firm, "NO", along with a fence tends to deter all but the most aggressive. If they agress beyond that point after doing this, then you have a pretty good idea of what you are about to deal with.
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2008, 12:54:15 PM »

I will be having dinner with Southnark this Thursday.  Apart from the pleasure of good conversation, there will be one business item discussed: DBMA will be carrying SN's "Managing Unknown Contact" DVD.  In my opinion this is an outstanding piece of work.  (PS:  I have a brief cameo in it as a Bad Guy cheesy )
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michael
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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2008, 05:51:24 PM »

I will be having dinner with Southnark this Thursday.  Apart from the pleasure of good conversation, there will be one business item discussed: DBMA will be carrying SN's "Managing Unknown Contact" DVD.  In my opinion this is an outstanding piece of work.  (PS:  I have a brief cameo in it as a Bad Guy cheesy )

That is good to know. I don't have that one yet, but have heard his lecture. Please give him my regards and well wishes.
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maija
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« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2008, 11:38:34 PM »

This is a story about Maestro Sonny Umpad that is not exactly about sucker punches but falls into the unknown contacts and psychology elements of this thread.
Sonny went dancing at many clubs around the Bay Area back in the day. There were many competitions for money and Sonny won many of them dancing The Hustle, a partner dance. He would often dance with the local girls at the club, and especially if he won, this would sometimes cause problems with the local guys.
One dance spot always had a police presence when the club let out because of this, though this did not stop the possibility of an altercation. Sonny had come to the club one night but had decided not to carry a blade to avoid getting into trouble. I guess he must have won the competition on danced with the wrong guy's girlfriend or something because at the end of the night he knew a group were waiting for him to leave. He was unarmed, so from his cigarette packet he pulled out the foil insert and folded it to look like the tip of a blade which he held poking out of his hand, as though he was concealing a much larger weapon. As he passed the group he said "I don't want to fight" and flashed the 'blade'. The group backed off and Sonny made it to the parking lot.
One of the group ran to find the nearest cop and told him Sonny was carrying, but when the cop confronted him he just crumbled the foil into a ball and was found to be carrying nothing afro
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Hawke
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 07:47:18 PM »

Here's a post by Southnarc on Managing Unknown Contacts:

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=770

You have to register at their site which is quick, but you can't see the pictures until an admin ok's your profile which can take a few days.

You can still get a good idea from Southnarc's posts.
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Tony Torre
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2008, 11:02:43 AM »

Michael,

I've also noticed that a firm No works well in many cases.  A suggestion from one of my teachers was a no thank you, first followed by a NO if needed.  This works well against homeless people and pan handlers.  At night depending on the circumstances I may also flash them with my surefire.

Tony Torre
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www.miamiarnisgroup.com
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michael
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« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2008, 09:09:52 PM »

I agree, Tony. Most of them will back down when they see you are not afraid of them and not afraid to state your "no" firmly. I work in LE, and a large percentage of the homeless have some form of mental disorder, and many are under the influence the majority of the time. You really never know exactly who you are dealing with, and it can vary widely from one to another.
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Tony Torre
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« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2008, 02:25:10 PM »

The ramifications of eye contact are something to consider.  Prolonged eye contact is a universal sign of hostility.  Anyone who's ever stared at a dog knows exactly what I mean.  Lets consider how this could be used to dissuade an opponent or how it can be used against you.  Where I grew up staredowns usually preceded a fight.  Very often it was the "what are you looking at" thing you could never seem to walk away from or even a flat out sucker punch.  Sometimes the sucker puncher would fein like he no longer wanted trouble and fake like he's walking away or even try to shake your hand before the sucker punch.  Depending on where your are prolonged eye contact can be used as a way for gang members to select victims to jump or it can provoke an advance from a advance from a homosexual. Understanding the culture you are dealing with should be a part of your overall awareness practice.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2008, 02:40:34 PM »

We have Southnark's PUC DVD in our possession and will be offering it in our catalog quite soon.
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pau
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« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2008, 01:55:43 AM »

I think the idea of interrupting the potential attacker's thought process or "OODA loop" is a good one.  Whenever I'm in a situation where I pass someone on the sidewalk who could potentially be an attacker I look them in the eye and say, "hey, how are you doing?".  Most people are obviously not used to this and it visibly throws them off.  I prefer it in a passing situation because it doesn't draw attention or have the person think, does he know my mother?  No, he doesn't, WTF...you don't know my mother MFer...

well in my case  were i live (mexico) if you say to some one you dont know and he is a potential attacker (or most every one)  "hey, how are you doing?" thel reply "what the ***** do you care (then prosed to hit you)  cry so ther is no actual DO THIS INSTED OF THIS heheh ever situaion is diferent but like you sead earlier in another coment "I just walk on buy" and in my case if they folow I RUN let them catch me then we see the next step in order  grin
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 02:35:34 PM by pau » Logged

guau desde mex ^^

woof from mex ^^
michael
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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2008, 10:39:08 AM »

I think cultural differences are an important point to bring up in this discussion. For instance, white folks mostly like to maintain their space and are respectful, while black folks tend to get close and use a lot of hand gestures and motions that look aggressive to those who do not know.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2008, 10:49:50 AM »

Also worth noting is that these hand gestures can also be used to mask the initiation of hostilities.
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2008, 12:27:01 PM »

Quote
white folks mostly like to maintain their space and are respectful, while black folks tend to get close and use a lot of hand gestures and motions that look aggressive to those who do not know

Uhm, could you expand on that a little?
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Maxx
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« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2008, 01:58:16 PM »

I don't know about you..But I am a white folk and I have been known to get up in peoples faces and use motions that look aggressive and I have a Black friend that like to keep his space and is very respectful.. I think that is a case of  sterotyping.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 01:59:58 PM by Maxx » Logged

Punyojoe
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« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2008, 02:40:37 PM »

I don't know bout you but I'm also a white guy who knows exectly what michael is talking about.
Stereotypes are for a reason, they are identifiers and usually correct.  Sorry to everyone on the PC train. shocked
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Maxx
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« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2008, 03:11:37 PM »

I don't know bout you but I'm also a white guy who knows exectly what michael is talking about.
Stereotypes are for a reason, they are identifiers and usually correct.  Sorry to everyone on the PC train. shocked

You have got to be kidding right? Please tell me that you are joking?
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Jonobos
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« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2008, 04:49:53 PM »

I think cultural differences are an important point to bring up in this discussion. For instance, white folks mostly like to maintain their space and are respectful, while black folks tend to get close and use a lot of hand gestures and motions that look aggressive to those who do not know.

I think that Americans (black and white) have a much larger area around them that they consider their own "personal space." This notion is not encountered in many other cultures, or at least the general space considered "personal" is not as large. I have some Austrian friends that own a restaraunt. One of their favorite things to do is sit people at a table with other people that they don't know. You should see how everyone hems and haws, and squirms at the notion of having to sit by, and interact with people they are not intimately familiar with! It is comical in the extreme  cheesy  Then both groups try and sit there ignoring each other and I can't help but notice how rude it seems. Don't get me wrong. I have the same idea of personal space that most Americans do because I was born and raised here. But I am able to adjust those boundaries a bit more because I was exposed to people who did not share them.

"Black folks" don't all act like that. Many young American black folks do act like that, and so do young American white folks, and young American mexican folks, etc. I am against PC'ness, but I am also against over simplifications.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2008, 05:20:02 PM »

Lets stay light here people.  Surely we can all agree that there are cultural differences in body language?  Delineating where the cultural boundaries lay and how they are defined is a separate and additional point.
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2008, 09:32:04 PM »

Quote
I think that Americans (black and white) have a much larger area around them that they consider their own "personal space." This notion is not encountered in many other cultures, or at least the general space considered "personal" is not as large.

Bingo!

So, I guess my question would be, "Are there definitive pre-attack cues that cross cultures? And if so, what are they?"
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2008, 11:48:53 PM »

I grew up in New York City.  I'm guessing that my sense of personal space was affected by riding on the subway  cheesy  When I first moved to LA, I sensed I was irking a lot of people.  Turns out that my New Yorker's custom of "participatory listening" out here was considered "interrupting"  cheesy cheesy   On my motorcycle I was nearly rear ending cars every day until I figured out that out here people slow down for pedestrians -- when I saw a pedestrian in front of the car in front of me I had seen no reason for it to slow down cheesy cheesy cheesy  A good friend of mine has done serious door work in Germany and Switzerland for many years and can discuss quite intelligently how the same hand gestures mean different things to an Italian or a Yugoslav, etc.  I'm told that in the Arabic cultures men can walk down the street holding hands without it being gay-- try that going into a country music bar in Wyoming. (I read a passage in an article referring to a US officer having to hold hands with a Sunni sheik as part of cross-cultural communication-- VERY funny)

Perhaps Michael would have been a little more artful if he had said something like "black ghetto culture" and "white suburban culture", but does anyone here really think that the body language of the two cultures does not have some differences?



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SB_Mig
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« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2008, 12:07:03 AM »

Quote
does anyone here really think that the body language of the two cultures does not have some differences?

Depends on where you are in the country/state/city, but as a whole, sure. There has definitely been a lot of cross cultural "bleed over" in the past 10-15 years with the rise of hip hop and rap.

How about some more pre-attack cues (some of which are apparent in the videos):

Shifting of balance
Clenching of fists
Shifting shoulders back
Looking for a weapon or at a particular body part (targeting)
Conspicuously looking elsewhere
Depersonalizing (thousand yard stare)
Hiding or averting the face (facial wipe/slicking hair back/removing hat)
Bobbing up and down or rocking
Growling
Face color change (flushing)
Lack of verbalization




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Intercepticon
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« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2008, 08:17:33 PM »

Hey Guro, I didnt know you grew up in NYC... so did I, in Queens (Rego Park)... LOL @ that clip you posted of the girl knocking down the guy, sweet haymaker... I hope she got away safely!

Anyway, Im sure lots of you have seen this clip before, I think it falls under the category of pre-emption. Granted, perhaps those guys were just posturing and didnt really intend to attack the headbutt guy, but I guess he decided not to take any chances...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdZgeesw68
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foxmarten
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« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2008, 01:22:42 AM »

Sometimes you just cant see 'em coming...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DHw4wyYjg8&feature=related
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