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Author Topic: Knife Law  (Read 13805 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: May 23, 2008, 01:53:45 PM »

Knife law is varies from jurisdiction to jurisdicition.  This thread is to help us know what the laws are, where to find them, to discuss them and so forth.  We open with a post from the Kerambit vs. Straight knife thread by James in response to a question from me:
============
Crafty:

I will do my best.

California Penal Code 653k       Legal knife stuff.  But note, no mention of length; any length is therefore ok.  Dirks, daggers, fixed blades, folders etc. are legal.  Switchblades, cane knives, etc. are illegal.

California Penal Code 12020     Street Carry Laws...Fixed blades must be openly carried; note any possible weapon, i.e. a screwdriver carried concealed can be considered a dagger and you could be in violation.  Non switchblade pocket knives that are in the closed position can legally be carried concealed or open carry.

California Penal Code 626.10    Basically, don't carry a knife K-12.  However on a college campus while you may not carry a fixed blade, you may carry a folder of any length.

Los Angeles City Ordinance     I am sorry, I don't know the Ordinance, but I do know that LA prohibits open carry (and remember State Law says no concealed carry for a fixed blade) of ANY knife over 3".  This would include folders.  However, if you carry your folder 100% concealed, and it is over 3", this would seem to be legal but...

NOTE, nowhere in any CA Law (in contrast to some other states) is INTENT mentioned.  Intent is not an issue until you use the knife; but that is a whole other discussion.

Crafty, I hope the above helps.
=========

Maybe  cheesy

I certainly appreciate your giving us the sections of the CA code involved and your summary of them.  May I push my luck further and ask for the URLs and/or the actual language of the statutes?

Also, may I suggest what remains open on the question of intent is whether one is allowed to carry ANYTHING with the intent of it being a weapon?  A baseball bat is legal , , , for baseball.  A bat for the purpose of a weapon may not be.  Anyone?

CD
============
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JDN
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 02:28:26 PM »


Maybe  cheesy

I certainly appreciate your giving us the sections of the CA code involved and your summary of them.  May I push my luck further and ask for the URLs and/or the actual language of the statutes?

Also, may I suggest what remains open on the question of intent is whether one is allowed to carry ANYTHING with the intent of it being a weapon?  A baseball bat is legal , , , for baseball.  A bat for the purpose of a weapon may not be.  Anyone?

CD
============

Crafty; sorry my computer skills are limited  grin

As for baseball, pipes, etc. the way it was explained to me is that "if you use it in
an unlawful manner, there could be a weapon's charge.".  But there is no law prohibiting you
from carrying a baseball bat in your car.  Nor do you have to explain why you have it.

In contrast, if you are carrying a screwdriver, knitting needle, etc. in your pants pocket
concealed, it might be considered a "dagger" and you could be charged under PC 12020
et al even if your "intent" was only to fix your front door.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 11:51:27 PM »

Which brings me to my point. 

If a LEO pulls over someone with a baseball bat on his front seat, and conversation reveals no baseball game in the near past or future, and upon query as to the reason for the bat the answer is given "Self Defense", I'm thinking this could lead to legally unhappy consequences.

Re Section 12020, I'm thinking the same applies to that screwdriver in your pocket.  If frisked per a "Terry stop" (calling all LEOs, am I using the term correctly?) i.e. a pat down search and the screwdriver turns up and your answer is "self-defense", again I am thinking your intent could lead to legally unhappy consequences.

Yes?
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JDN
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2008, 08:58:11 AM »

Crafty,


Which brings me to my point. 

If a LEO pulls over someone with a baseball bat on his front seat, and conversation reveals no baseball game in the near past or future, and upon query as to the reason for the bat the answer is given "Self Defense", I'm thinking this could lead to legally unhappy consequences.

Re Section 12020, I'm thinking the same applies to that screwdriver in your pocket.  If frisked per a "Terry stop" (calling all LEOs, am I using the term correctly?) i.e. a pat down search and the screwdriver turns up and your answer is "self-defense", again I am thinking your intent could lead to legally unhappy consequences.

Yes?

I think the two items are different.  No law that I know of specifically refers to or describes a baseball bat.  Of course, if I use the baseball bat, a pipe, golf club, etc. illegally, a weapons charge may result and lead to "unhappy consequences".  However, you have no obligation to tell the officer why you have the baseball bat, golf club, etc. nor is there any thing he can charge you with even if you do say "self defense". 

In contrast, a screwdriver can legally be interpreted as a sharp pointy thing, i.e. a dagger and therefore by definition illegal (12020) to carry hidden.  He pats you down, finds that you are carrying it concealed and therefore it is an illegal weapon, which then probably will lead to your "legally unhappy consequences."

Another interesting question might have been, if I was stopped by the officer in LA and he noticed my 6" screwdriver on the seat next to me; what would he do?  Probably nothing, but IF he asked, "what is the screwdriver for?" and I said, "self defense", he would be entitled to arrest me for having a dagger longer than 3" (LA City Limit).

But the issue still is not "intent".  The issue is whether the instrument is legal to carry or not.

james
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 09:07:02 AM »

"Another interesting question might have been, if I was stopped by the officer in LA and he noticed my 6" screwdriver on the seat next to me; what would he do?  Probably nothing, but IF he asked, "what is the screwdriver for?" and I said, "self defense", he would be entitled to arrest me for having a dagger longer than 3" (LA City Limit).

"But the issue still is not "intent".  The issue is whether the instrument is legal to carry or not."

Disagree.  By your own words it is precisely the intent that turns it into a dagger.

As for the right to not answer, I suppose so-- but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them.  Yes?
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JDN
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2008, 10:01:45 AM »

"Another interesting question might have been, if I was stopped by the officer in LA and he noticed my 6" screwdriver on the seat next to me; what would he do?  Probably nothing, but IF he asked, "what is the screwdriver for?" and I said, "self defense", he would be entitled to arrest me for having a dagger longer than 3" (LA City Limit).

"But the issue still is not "intent".  The issue is whether the instrument is legal to carry or not."

Disagree.  By your own words it is precisely the intent that turns it into a dagger.

As for the right to not answer, I suppose so-- but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them.  Yes?


Actually no; it was not my words that turned it into a dagger; it already by definition was a dagger, i.e. a sharp pointy thing; however it is up to the officer's judgment whether he was looking at an illegal weapon; i.e. a dagger longer than 3" in LA jurisdiction.  I understand your point, and perhaps I am splitting hairs; BUT if I has said nothing, or if I had said, "I am fixing my front door" he still would have the right to arrest me for having an illegal weapon (dagger longer than 3").  It is the item itself, the dagger, that is illegal, not my intent. 

And yes, it is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make negative inferences if I am vague or refuse to answer.  So?  If I am carrying nothing illegal, i.e. only a baseball bat he can huff and puff, and maybe waste some of my time, but what else can he do?

Let me give you an example.  As a hobby/business I really like photography.  I usually shoot people; individuals.  I was at the Van Nuys Courthouse last week for court business, but I brought my camera; I like watching people outside court.  But maybe I should have brought a gun, it would have been easier to explain.  As I entered, the rent a cop said, "No cameras allowed" to me.  I said, "No, the sign says, "no taking pictures, I don't intend to take a picture inside the Courthouse and the camera/lens cost over 10k so you can't have it."  The Sheriff came, we discussed it, and it was agreed I could keep the camera.  I testified at a trial, did my job, and went outside the courthouse, had a nice cigar and cup of coffee.  I then began shooting (camera, I forget this is a martial art forum) individuals.

Sheriff comes up to me and yells, "Stop".  "Why" I say?  He said, "it's illegal to take pictures".  I said, "No, it's illegal to take pictures inside the courthouse, but outside is fair game.".  He huffed and he puffed.  We argued, I asked for his supervisor, and the Senior Deputy, while not very happy (we were both polite and courteous) agreed that I have every right to take pictures of people outside the courthouse.  My long (sorry) point?  The law is the law; obey it, but if you are within your rights and are obeying the law and have nothing to hide, do not fear or be concerned about the erroneous opinion or negative inferences of a police officer.
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Bandolero
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2008, 03:18:06 PM »

The different states have a multitude of views on this overall topic.

Virginia, for example, has no length of blade law except for on school grounds (then it is 3").

Maryland, has no length law but it is up to the individual officer to decide whether he/she thinks you are up to no good, at which point you can be arrested.  So one cop might not have a problem with you carrying a 6" Bowie on you, and another might lock you up for a 3 1/2" folder.  This is one of the reasons I generally recommend people reconsider packing an all black military looking throat slitter.

In NY carrying a screwdriver can also be considered carrying burglar's tools if the overall situation crosses into that articulable threshold.  If you are caught by the police peering into the back windows of a house at night, with a screwdriver, that could be enough for possession of burglar's tools.

I think JDN's response to Crafty on a couple of issues is basically a solid one.  However...


Quote
Let me give you an example.  As a hobby/business I really like photography.  I usually shoot people; individuals.  I was at the Van Nuys Courthouse last week for court business, but I brought my camera; I like watching people outside court.  But maybe I should have brought a gun, it would have been easier to explain.  As I entered, the rent a cop said, "No cameras allowed" to me.  I said, "No, the sign says, "no taking pictures, I don't intend to take a picture inside the Courthouse and the camera/lens cost over 10k so you can't have it."
 

Having had to help draft these types of polices, I can attest to the importance of absolute specificity and clarity.  I suspect the prevailing courthouse rules are "no taking of pictures", not "no possession of cameras."


Quote
The law is the law; obey it, but if you are within your rights and are obeying the law and have nothing to hide, do not fear or be concerned about the erroneous opinion or negative inferences of a police officer.

Certainly not a personal policy I would encourage but to each his own.  There are ways to deal with people who want to get all Donkey Kong.  From the moment somebody takes that attitude, they have to be right every time.  The cop only has to be right once.  I won't go into tactics and techniques, but I have personally dealt with people wanting to show their ass in a most satisfactory and very satisfying manner (as in I left the courthouse that Friday night and had a beer, and they got to go to the Baltimore city Jail).
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JDN
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 09:12:27 AM »

I think JDN's response to Crafty on a couple of issues is basically a solid one.  However...


Quote
Let me give you an example.  As a hobby/business I really like photography.  I usually shoot people; individuals.  I was at the Van Nuys Courthouse last week for court business, but I brought my camera; I like watching people outside court.  But maybe I should have brought a gun, it would have been easier to explain.  As I entered, the rent a cop said, "No cameras allowed" to me.  I said, "No, the sign says, "no taking pictures, I don't intend to take a picture inside the Courthouse and the camera/lens cost over 10k so you can't have it."
 

Having had to help draft these types of polices, I can attest to the importance of absolute specificity and clarity.  I suspect the prevailing courthouse rules are "no taking of pictures", not "no possession of cameras."


Quote
The law is the law; obey it, but if you are within your rights and are obeying the law and have nothing to hide, do not fear or be concerned about the erroneous opinion or negative inferences of a police officer.

Certainly not a personal policy I would encourage but to each his own.  There are ways to deal with people who want to get all Donkey Kong.  From the moment somebody takes that attitude, they have to be right every time.  The cop only has to be right once.  I won't go into tactics and techniques, but I have personally dealt with people wanting to show their ass in a most satisfactory and very satisfying manner (as in I left the courthouse that Friday night and had a beer, and they got to go to the Baltimore city Jail).
[/quote]




Cold War Scout,

Maybe I misinterpreted your comment, but...
"Donkey Kong"?  "show their ass"?  hmmmm I think in the above post I mentioned that I was polite as was the Senior Deputy.  And I broke no law; I just pointed out my legal rights.  Actually, the only "ass" in the story was the initial Sheriff who huffed and puffed but didn't know his own "ass" about the law.  I just listened to him and asked for his Supervisor.  Maybe that's why he was the Supervisor...

So assuming similar legal circumstances in your example, "they went to Baltimore City Jail" on what bogus fictitious charge???  I don't know Baltimore Laws, but in LA, if you arrested and booked someone (who knows the law and has a few dollars) given the above scenario, before you finished your beers, he would be out of jail, also, most likely your personnel file would be negatively noted and you might even be suspended on Monday, plus the civil suit against the City/County would be for more than an LA Police/Sheriff makes in a year.  Not good.

Police/Sheriff's are not above the law; their duty is to know and enforce the law; Police/Sheriff's don't make the Law.  And it is the Public's responsibility to obey the law. 


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Bandolero
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 09:49:26 AM »

Quote
Police/Sheriff's don't make the Law.

No.  But they get to interpret it.


Personally I never worried about getting sued.  I could articulate and justify every single thing I ever did.  And I did the things I thought needed doing without the slightest hesitation.

I did get sued one time (and only once) in the early 80s.  For a million dollars!  Man that was like badge of honor.  The case was thrown out at the first hearing.  Because when you bogusly claim you have been beaten to within an inch of your life at the time of arrest, then your booking photos should not show that you did not have a single scratch on you.

I did go major hands on a bandit once.  Under your theory I should have been quivering in my shoes from his lawsuit.  To him it was a badge of honor.  Two days after the event, when he was in a cell in the facility and saw me, he started bragging to the others in the cell about the the ass whooping he got, and asked me to verify it to the others. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 10:24:05 AM by Cold War Scout » Logged

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JDN
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 11:04:12 AM »

Quote
Police/Sheriff's don't make the Law.

No.  But they get to interpret it.


Personally I never worried about getting sued.  I could articulate and justify every single thing I ever did.  And I did the things I thought needed doing without the slightest hesitation.

I did get sued one time (and only once) in the early 80s.  For a million dollars!  Man that was like badge of honor.  The case was thrown out at the first hearing.  Because when you bogusly claim you have been beaten to within an inch of your life at the time of arrest, then your booking photos should not show that you did not have a single scratch on you.

I did go major hands on a bandit once.  Under your theory I should have been quivering in my shoes from his lawsuit.  To him it was a badge of honor.  Two days after the event, when he was in a cell in the facility and saw me, he started bragging to the others in the cell about the the ass whooping he got, and asked me to verify it to the others. 



Cold War Scout,

Ahhhh actually they (Police/Sheriff) DON'T get to interpret the Law; that's why we have Judges and maybe the DA's Office.  But the Police/Sheriff?  They simply enforce the law - it is NOT their prerogative to interpret it.

As for the lawsuit, I agree, don't worry, not your problem; here in LA the City pays with taxpayer's money.  Frankly, I think the money really should come out of the Officer's personal assets. His mistake, it should be his "ass". 

As for the "major hands on a bandit once", don't know about that, but maybe that is why LA Police Department still has the Feds looking over their shoulder and LA is spending millions on Federal Mandated Police Oversight and has awarded millions to citizens falsely manhandled and falsely arrested.  Wasted taxpayer's dollars at work all because of a few rogue and publically vilified cops.

Kind of gives Police/Sheriff's a bad name, don't you think?  I kind of feel sorry for the many outstanding ones like the Senior Deputy I mentioned.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 08:06:46 AM »

http://www.blademag.com:80/article/hawaiibillwouldbanfolders/

Hawaii Bill Would Ban Folders
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 02, 2009

On Jan. 11, 2009, Hawaii Senator Les Ihara, Jr. introduced Bill 126 that would essentially ban folding knives throughout the state. In a letter to the senator, David Kowalski, of the American Knife & Tool Institute, laid out why the bill is bad for law-abiding knife owners.

Currently, Hawaiian law applies only to possession of switchblades, enforceable at the felony level. Bill 126 would expand the scope of knife regulation to include folders. However, the penalty would be a misdemeanor, not a felony.

What follows is Kowalski's letter.

Dear Senator Ihara:
 
The bill you introduced last week (HI S 126) would make de facto criminals of tens of thousands of your law-abiding  citizens and potentially millions more who visit your beautiful state each year. It reads, in part…
 A BILL FOR AN ACT RELATING TO DANGEROUS WEAPONS. BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF HAWAII:
     SECTION 1. Chapter 134, Hawaii Revised Statutes, is amended by adding a new section to part III to be appropriately designated and to read as follows: "Section 134- Pocket knives; sale prohibited; penalty. Any person who knowingly manufactures, sells, transfers, possesses, or transports a pocket knife in the State shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. As used in this section: "Pocket knife" means a knife with a blade that folds into the handle and which is suitable for  carrying in the pocket."

On behalf of the American Knife & Tool Institute (AKTI), which represents the $1 Billion sporting knife industry in the United States, I would ask two things of you.

First, please call me at your earliest convenience to discuss this proposed legislation. I understand you have introduced the bill at the request of a constituent. It would be important to understand your goals and those of your constituent. While passing a knife law might seem a simple issue, there are grave consequences if it is vague, discriminatory, highly discretionary or simply so broad it is unenforceable.
 
AKTI has worked successfully with lawmakers in several states to make sure their knife laws support the goals of law enforcement, mesh with the needs of a diverse and strong economy, preserve the heritage of men and women who hunt, fish, and enjoy a broad variety of outdoor recreation, allow the construction industry to function at a high level, and preserve the rights of ordinary citizens who may have carried a knife their entire life to open letters and do some pruning in the rose garden.
 
Secondly, I would ask you to consider just a few issues that might give you some new insight into the issues that your bill raises.
 
Broadly, AKTI supports rational, equitable knife laws. Simple possession of a knife should not be punished. Knives do no harm unless used by someone who intends to harm. But we do support significant punishment of anyone who uses a knife in the commission of a crime.
 
Every five years, our U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service documents the impact of hunting and fishing in each of the
50 states. Released in the fall of 2007, its 2006 National Survey of Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife-Associated
Recreation documents that, nationally, hunters and fishers spend more than $76 Billion annually (State statistics page attached).
 
Hawaii benefited from an estimated $163,363,000 spent by hunters and fishers in 2006. Since most hunters and fishers carry knives, we should not subject them to prosecution for knife possession or jeopardize that vital revenue.
 
Your marine and sport fishing industry is heavily dependent on knife usage. To forbid pocket knives on the docks and marinas of Hawaii would be an economic disaster and an enforcement nightmare.
 
Speaking further about economics, AKTI published its own report in 2007 entitled The AKTI State of the Sporting Knife Industry. Projections from the AKTI study peg annual sporting knife revenue at the manufacturer/importer level in Hawaii at $41,686,375.
 
Sales at Hawaii distribution and retail outlets would nearly double that number to some $82 million. That’s a
lot of jobs, taxes and economic vitality. When you run those dollars through all the local economies affected, the total economic impact of the sporting knife industry in Hawaii approaches $492 million annually.
 
The construction trades are heavily dependent on workmen using knives. They carry them from homes to job sites and back again daily … millions of times each day. I am not an expert on the Hawaiian construction trades, but ask yourself how many of these people could keep Hawaii building and growing without all their necessary tools.
 
Carpenters, electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics, farm workers, greenhouse staff, lawn care workers, tree trimmers, nursery and garden center staff all use knives daily. Scientific research is significant in Hawaii where pocket knives are commonly used to procure samples. Then there are thousands of gardeners throughout the islands, many of whom carry a knife on their person. To bust every grandmother in her rose garden for carrying and using a pocket knife would be a social disaster beyond measure.
 
I have been to Hawaii several times. My small folding knife goes into checked baggage when I fly but then I carry it when I go biking or whale watching. Multiply me by millions of visitors who hunt, fish, hike, rock climb, bike, kayak, canoe, deep-sea fish, snorkel or scuba. Do you really want to threaten all those law-abiding visitors with arrest for carrying a small pocket knife? Whether they come from the continental U.S. or the Pacific Rim countries, their tourist dollars are very discretionary dollars and they can take them elsewhere.
 
Knives are man’s oldest tools. We don’t ban automobiles or cameras or computers because they have become more complex in mechanism and materials, more sophisticated in design, more aesthetically rich, and focused on ever-narrower market niches. We don’t ban baseball bats or golf clubs because they can cause physical injury.
 
Ideally, AKTI’s position is that knife possession of any sort should be permitted. AKTI’s ideal law would read, "A knife is illegal only if it is carried with the intent to assault or harm another person." However, I recognize that Hawaii already bans switchblades (and I have attached your current knife statute).
 
AKTI and AKTI members urge you to withdraw your bill since, as it is written, it would be a broad-brush attack on millions of law-abiding Hawaiian citizens and visitors. Its economic impact on several vital industries would be disastrous, especially given our current economic climate.
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peregrine
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 02:27:04 PM »

That bill is rediculous.

It is up there with the banning of pitbulls.


Banning folding knives...so many carry a knife everyday for work and menial chores that drives me ....
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 02:51:58 PM »

Whoa... I didn't see that? WTH?
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JDN
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2009, 08:28:56 PM »

Just a heads up.
CA permits folding knives to be carried in the folding position above grade 12 (college campus)
however a few local College Police/Security take the position that if they offer education for K-12 on their
campus and/or even have daycare on campus the laws applicable to K-12 apply, i.e. no folding knives. 
Bogus perhaps, but be aware you may be stopped and detained and possibly arrested.  You are in the
"right", but...
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G M
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2009, 08:29:07 AM »

I'm so glad I live in a free state.
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2009, 06:42:00 AM »

http://www.pgnh.org/obama_now_wants_your_pocket_knife

 Obama Now Wants Your Pocket Knife
by Evan F. Nappen, Esq.

June 4, 2009

Beware! That folding knife in your pocket may turn you into a criminal if the Obama administration gets its way. Although there has been a lot of fear and speculation that the new administration wants to take your guns, the most pressing threat now is actually to your pocket knives. With the changing of the guard at U.S. Customs, that agency has now embarked on redefining "switchblades" under federal law to include a wide variety of one hand opening knives that never were intended to be prohibited. In fact, many of the knives U.S. Customs now seek to prohibit under the Federal Switchblade Law had not even been invented at the time of its enactment! Furthermore, four previous U.S. Customs ruling letters (prior administrations) specifically determined "assisted opening" knives not to be defined as switchblades.

This new proposed U.S. Customs regulation is so broad that thousands of pocket knives will fall under its sweep and millions of knife owners will be affected. The problem is not simply that imports will be banned (which is bad enough), but that the "agency determination" will be used by domestic courts and law enforcement to determine what a "switchblade" is under both federal and state laws. Many states, including New Hampshire, fail to define switchblades and simply rely on the federal definition.

Luckily, the two premiere knife organizations in the US, American Knife and Tool Institute (AKTI) and Kniferights.org, are fighting hard on this issue, but they both need your immediate help. Customs is attempting to jam this new regulation though at record speed.

As stated on the www.kniferights.org website:

    U.S. Customs has proposed revoking earlier rulings that assisted opening knives are not switchblades. The proposed new rule would not only outlaw assisted opening knives its broad definition could also easily be interpreted to include one-handed opening knives and even most other pocket knives.

    Note that customs interpretation of the Federal Switchblade Act forms the basis for national, state and even local law and judicial rulings in many cases. The effect is NOT limited to just imports.

As stated on the www.akti.org website:

    URGENT NEWS - U.S. Customs Proposal would characterize assisted-openers as switchblade knives and jeopardize all pocket knives.  On behalf of the entire sporting knife industry and knife owners across the country, AKTI will be filing an official response to U.S. Customs.   

This is the biggest threat to American knife owners in U.S. history. AKTI informs us that this "Customs' proposal will make criminal out of 35.6 million Americans."

AKTI further states:

    U.S. Customs proposes to bypass Congress and expand the switchblade definition to include all knives that open with one hand. These include multi-tools, traditional pocket knives, one-hand openers, and assisted-openers.
    More than 35.6 million law-abiding Americans now own one-hand-openingknives in one of the above four categories.

The U.S. Customs proposed new rule and the four prior letters they want to overturn can be read in their entirety here: http://www.akti.org/PDFS/U.S.CustomsProposedRuling.pdf

AKTI suggests that to register your opposition to the U.S. Customs'plan (19  CFR  Part 177) to re-classify assisted openers and all folding knives; address your comments by June 21, 2009, to:

    19  CFR  Part 177
    U.S. Customs and Border Protection
    Office of International Trade, Regulations and Rulings
    Attention: Intellectual Property and Restricted Merchandise Branch
    Mint Annex,   799 Ninth St. N.W.
    Washington, D.C.  20229

 

 

 

 

© 2006-2009 Pro-Gun New Hampshire Inc.
26 S. Main St., PMB 284
Concord, NH 03301-4809
Tel. (603)226-PGNH [226-7464]
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2009, 08:57:54 AM »

http://www.pgnh.org/obama_now_wants_your_pocket_knife
Pro-Gun New Hampshire


Obama Now Wants Your Pocket Knife
by Evan F. Nappen, Esq.
June 4, 2009


Beware! That folding knife in your pocket may turn you into a criminal if the Obama administration gets its way. Although there has been a lot of fear and speculation that the new administration wants to take your guns, the most pressing threat now is actually to your pocket knives. With the changing of the guard at U.S. Customs, that agency has now embarked on redefining "switchblades" under federal law to include a wide variety of one hand opening knives that never were intended to be prohibited. In fact, many of the knives U.S. Customs now seek to prohibit under the Federal Switchblade Law had not even been invented at the time of its enactment! Furthermore, four previous U.S. Customs ruling letters (prior administrations) specifically determined "assisted opening" knives not to be defined as switchblades.

This new proposed U.S. Customs regulation is so broad that thousands of pocket knives will fall under its sweep and millions of knife owners will be affected. The problem is not simply that imports will be banned (which is bad enough), but that the "agency determination" will be used by domestic courts and law enforcement to determine what a "switchblade" is under both federal and state laws. Many states, including New Hampshire, fail to define switchblades and simply rely on the federal definition.

Luckily, the two premiere knife organizations in the US, American Knife and Tool Institute (AKTI) and Kniferights.org, are fighting hard on this issue, but they both need your immediate help. Customs is attempting to jam this new regulation though at record speed.

As stated on the www.kniferights.org website:

U.S. Customs has proposed revoking earlier rulings that assisted opening knives are not switchblades. The proposed new rule would not only outlaw assisted opening knives its broad definition could also easily be interpreted to include one-handed opening knives and even most other pocket knives.
Note that customs interpretation of the Federal Switchblade Act forms the basis for national, state and even local law and judicial rulings in many cases. The effect is NOT limited to just imports.
As stated on the www.akti.org website:

URGENT NEWS - U.S. Customs Proposal would characterize assisted-openers as switchblade knives and jeopardize all pocket knives.  On behalf of the entire sporting knife industry and knife owners across the country, AKTI will be filing an official response to U.S. Customs.   
This is the biggest threat to American knife owners in U.S. history. AKTI informs us that this "Customs' proposal will make criminal out of 35.6 million Americans."

AKTI further states:

U.S. Customs proposes to bypass Congress and expand the switchblade definition to include all knives that open with one hand. These include multi-tools, traditional pocket knives, one-hand openers, and assisted-openers.

More than 35.6 million law-abiding Americans now own one-hand-openingknives in one of the above four categories.
The U.S. Customs proposed new rule and the four prior letters they want to overturn can be read in their entirety here: http://www.akti.org/PDFS/U.S.CustomsProposedRuling.pdf

AKTI suggests that to register your opposition to the U.S. Customs'plan (19  CFR  Part 177) to re-classify assisted openers and all folding knives; address your comments by June 21, 2009, to:

19  CFR  Part 177
U.S. Customs and Border Protection
Office of International Trade, Regulations and Rulings
Attention: Intellectual Property and Restricted Merchandise Branch
Mint Annex,   799 Ninth St. N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20229

 
 
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G M
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2009, 09:02:25 AM »

This is sooooooo stupid. Know what edged weapons the average street scrote carries? A box cutter or tile knife bought at the dollar store. Cheap, plausibly deniable and readily disposable after they commit a crime with it.
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selfcritical
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 05:00:08 PM »

There was very little linked in the original article- although the writer states that all one-handed folders would be banned, about an hour of tooling around through the Customs pubically available information only yielded to me that

a) spring-assist would be effected
b) this would only effect import and not carry

The writer may have materials I am not privy to, but neither I nor any friends were able to find them.
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David III
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 04:18:02 PM »

There was very little linked in the original article- although the writer states that all one-handed folders would be banned, about an hour of tooling around through the Customs pubically available information only yielded to me that

a) spring-assist would be effected
b) this would only effect import and not carry

The writer may have materials I am not privy to, but neither I nor any friends were able to find them.

Yes, spring assist would be affected. Yes, this would only affect importation. There are some other areas where this ruling may have an impact. Customs is saying that "It is now CBP’s position that knives incorporating spring- and release-assisted opening mechanisms are prohibited from entry into the United States pursuant to the Switchblade Knife Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1241–1245" -- page 7 of their statement. Customs then has some letters from 2005 where they said that spring assist was not a switchblade. Fine. Agreed.
Problem is with their 2008 letters that retract the earlier view. At this point, they are citing the report of the "Senate Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce" -- ". . . We hold, therefore, that a knife may be found to be a switchblade knife within the meaning of the Switchblade Knife Act if it is found that
it can be made to open automatically by hand pressure, inertia, or gravity after insignificant alterations, and that one of its primary purposes is for use as a weapon" - page 24.
Then Customs goes back and gets some rather obscure rulings to further reinforce their view that a switchblade is now [either] a knife that opens by pushing a button or a knife that can be opened with inertia. They cite a dictionary definition of inertia, etc.... and then these past rulings: "In New York Ruling Letter (‘‘NY’’) G83213, dated October 13, 2000, CBP determined that ‘‘a folding knife with a spring-loaded blade [which could] be easily opened by light pressure on a thumb knob located at the base of the blade, or by a flick of the wrist’’ was an ‘‘inertia-operated knife’’ that ‘‘is prohibited under the Switchblade Act and subject to seizure.’’ See 19 C.F.R.
§ 12.95 (a)(1). In NY H81084, dated May 23, 2001, CBP determined that 18 models of knives ‘‘may be opened with a simple flick of the wrist, and therefore are
prohibited as inertial operated knives.’’ - page 32

OK, so spring assist and, based on their definition, any knife that can be opened with a "flick of the wrist" - and at some other point they discuss any knife that can be opened with one hand (but I'm too lazy to find it in the 63 pages of legalese), let's say all these can no longer be imported. My big Cold Steel knife can be flicked open, I'm sure there are plenty of others. With the thumb-stud types, the makers can leave the thumb stud off and then tack weld the fastener holding the blade so it can't be backed out (and thus it can't be loose enough to be flicked open).

These are the Feds and they work with the Federal definition of a switchblade, of course. That's 15 USC -- 1241-1245.
Here's the warped part. Most all state laws that ban switchblades do not define a switchblade. The state law defaults to the Federal definition. So, if the Federal definition would now mean all the knives above, then a lot of regular knives could no longer be carried under state statutes.
Has this happened? No. But we haven't heard from Customs yet. They have 30 days from June 21st to make a ruling, which takes effect 90 days from that time. I don't know what the states will do with it. Some will probably ignore it. Others, who knows? Meanwhile, a lot of knife manufacturers are going to have a mess.

I am not an attorney, nor did I sleep in whatever motel last night. But, I do get paid as my full time job to interpret firearms law and when I happened across the Customs bulletin, I thought it wouldn't hurt to take a look. So, my opinion is only worth the two pennies and I am only listing possibilities. Some of those, unfortunately, are just rather disheartening.
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selfcritical
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 05:07:39 PM »

Ah, you found some text that I had not. My perception of this is that someone who's not very familiar with knives thinks he(or she or they) are closing a loophole. I believe they're incorrect, of course.
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David III
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 08:01:15 PM »

Ah, you found some text that I had not. My perception of this is that someone who's not very familiar with knives thinks he(or she or they) are closing a loophole. I believe they're incorrect, of course.

Exactly! Years ago, when I saw the first assisted-opening knives, I thought that eventually the Feds would walk all over that idea. Unfortunately, the "not very familiar" are running the show (as you very well said), so we may see some things that are just stupid. Agreed, they are attempting to close a loophole, but they are taking the old idea of gravity knives and pushing that into the concept of inertia opening.

You and I need to have the ability to sit down with a beer and write the "switchblade" definition -- which I'd suggest, should really just be trashed. I could care less if somebody is carrying a knife that needs to have a button pushed to open it. While they are doing that, I can pop my knife open faster. Or, I'll just shoot them.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2009, 07:02:22 AM »

Good post David. 

Has anyone here written a letter about this yet?  NOW is the time for comments people!
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selfcritical
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2009, 08:57:34 AM »

I wouldn't begrudge a law that made it more difficult to carry a knife that is very easily palm-concealed. I just want a safe tool I can open with one hand that sufficiently obvious that I'll have a hard time walking up to someone when it's in my hand. I've never had my hands on an actual switchblade, so I don't know if this is a valid concern.

I wouldn't freak out if they banned the import of those crazy indonesian finger-knives either(where you hold the ball in your palm and the blade traces along your index finger). I could be persuaded otherwise, most likely.
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David III
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2009, 10:47:24 AM »

Good post David. 

Has anyone here written a letter about this yet?  NOW is the time for comments people!

Crafty Dog - the comment period ended June 21st. Customs was asked for an extension but they refused. Meanwhile a couple of Representatives tried to tag a rule onto the Customs appropriations bill to not let Customs have the money needed to enforce the new switchblade ruling (kind of clever, I thought, hit them in the wallet). Of course, the rule got pitched out of committee on some kind of technical error.

So, we wait and see. At least here, a Missouri CCW includes all weapons, so I can always carry my Bowie knife in one of Mike Sastre's sheaths.....!
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Boyo
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2009, 05:46:24 PM »

Here is what the Michigan state police say about knives:

.  I recently purchased a double-edged survival knife. Does Michigan law allow me to carry this in my vehicle?

MCL 750.227    No. A dagger, dirk, stiletto, or double-edged non-folding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, cannot be carried concealed on or about a person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in their own home, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

5.  Is it illegal to have a knife with a blade over 3 inches in my possession?

MCL 750.226   No. Michigan law specifies that a person, with intent to use the knife unlawfully against another, shall not go armed with a knife having a blade over 3 inches in length.

Boyo

The real interesting point is the intent question. Does carrying a knife for self defense imply intent.
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selfcritical
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« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2009, 09:28:49 AM »

In many states it does.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2009, 10:59:39 AM »

It is my understanding that in my state of CA that carrying for defense is considered an admission of intent to carry a weapon.
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Boyo
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« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2009, 09:53:23 PM »

Now here is my quandry about michigan , we allow peopel to carry firearms for the same purpose they say you cannot carry a knife self defense . Tried to talk to a local prosecuter about it and he really didn't have any answers or didn't want to give any.

boyo
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David III
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2009, 11:28:39 AM »

Now here is my quandry about michigan , we allow peopel to carry firearms for the same purpose they say you cannot carry a knife self defense . Tried to talk to a local prosecuter about it and he really didn't have any answers or didn't want to give any.

boyo

Some states - maybe most - do have that problem. They'll issue permits to carry firearms rather than weapons (and then one must go to the definition of weapon to see what's allowed). When Missouri did their law, they said "weapons" -- however (aren't those however things great?), brass knuckles and switchblades are not in the list of definitions for weapon, they are listed separately. So, brass knuckles and switchblades are illegal to carry even with a permit to carry weapons. That means perhaps, depending on how Missouri looks at the Customs ruling, my folding knife would be illegal to carry.

Using the wonders of legal logic, I am still able to carry blackjacks, saps, bowie knives, daggers, dirks and firearms. That's if I am tough enough to pack around that much gear.
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2009, 01:20:35 PM »

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=5043

Late Thursday, the Senate unanimously passed anamendment to the Federal Switchblade Act as part of the Homeland Security appropriations bill. The amendment, authored by Sens. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Mark Pryor (D-Ark.) and Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), changes the federal law under which one agency had tried to redefine many common knives as switchblades.
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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2009, 03:47:28 PM »

Friday, July 10, 2009 Late Thursday, the Senate unanimously passed anamendment to the Federal Switchblade Act as part of the Homeland Security appropriations bill. The amendment, authored by Sens. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Mark Pryor (D-Ark.) and Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), changes the federal law under which one agency had tried to redefine many common knives as switchblades.

The measure would exempt assisted-opening knives that can only be opened with "exertion applied to the blade by hand, wrist or arm" from a federal law that criminalizes commerce in switchblades. Assisted opening knives are highly desired by hunters, anglers, farmers, ranchers, firefighters, law enforcement and emergency personnel and others who may need to open a knife with only one hand.

"The Senate sent a strong message and made clear that the 35 million Americans who own pocketknives are free to continue using them without the threat of federal agency intrusion," Sen. Cornyn said in a statement today. "While U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) proposed changing that, my colleagues joined in a unanimous, bipartisan effort to ensure assisted-opening pocketknives are protected by the law. What's more, the CBP reversal would have inflicted serious economic harm to sporting goods manufacturers and retailers."

In the same statement, Sen. Hatch said, "Without this amendment, there is a real danger that 80 percent of the pocketknives sold in the U.S. could be classified as illegal switchblades, which would hurt knife and tool manufacturers across the nation. The unintended consequences of the CBP's definition could be that state and federal criminal courts could construe Leatherman-type multi-tools equipped with one-hand opening features, as well as folding utility knives with studs on the blunt portions of the blade to assist with opening, to be illegal. That is absurd."

Thursday's Senate action puts us one step closer to passing this common-sense measure into law. The measure now heads to a House-Senate Conference Committee.

To view the amendment, please click here: http://www.kniferights.org/SAmdt%201447.pdf
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2013, 07:05:01 PM »



http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=136&Itemid=1
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2013, 07:06:41 PM »

second post

http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=98&Itemid=1
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2013, 07:09:09 PM »

third post

http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=212&Itemid=1
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JSworth
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« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2013, 01:31:30 AM »

"Another interesting question might have been, if I was stopped by the officer in LA and he noticed my 6" screwdriver on the seat next to me; what would he do?  Probably nothing, but IF he asked, "what is the screwdriver for?" and I said, "self defense", he would be entitled to arrest me for having a dagger longer than 3" (LA City Limit).

"But the issue still is not "intent".  The issue is whether the instrument is legal to carry or not."

Disagree.  By your own words it is precisely the intent that turns it into a dagger.

As for the right to not answer, I suppose so-- but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them.  Yes?

I hope you don't mind me dropping this in here. I know the conversation was... quite some time ago, but I think this might be relevant. In People v. Fannin it is shown that intent can make a legal tool an illegal weapon. Johnny Fannin was found in possession of a chain with a lock on the end, and though he would later claim to use it as a bike lock, when asked by the officer what it was for he said it was for self-defense. The court ruled that this showed intent to use it as a weapon, and as one which is illegal under CA law. Now I don't have a background in law so I could be missing something, or even what you were saying in your post, but it does seem to me at least that this shows that it can come down to intent.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 01:34:58 AM by JSworth » Logged
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2013, 06:06:43 AM »

a) You earn a doggie treat for thread coherence;

b) I think if you go back and look at the post to which I was responding and note my use of quotation marks you will see that you are saying the same thing as me  smiley
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JSworth
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« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 05:06:23 PM »

a) You earn a doggie treat for thread coherence;

b) I think if you go back and look at the post to which I was responding and note my use of quotation marks you will see that you are saying the same thing as me  smiley

Cool. I thought that was what you were saying, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the treat. Cheesy

Oh, and also, it can get even worse though than just being something as simple as intent that changes something from a tool to an illegal weapon. I believe it was in People v. Grubb that it was ruled that the people do not even need to be able to show that your intent is to use it in an illegal manner, but that you can defend yourself by being able to demonstrate your ability and intent to use an item in it's intended manner. Sounds a little like guilty until proven innocent to me. But again, I don't have a background in the law.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 05:09:09 PM by JSworth » Logged
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2013, 07:32:30 PM »

Your bringing case citations into the conversation is appreciated; it helps the value of this forum as a resource tool.

A friend has sidebarred me as follows:
----------------------------------------------------------------

Knife Laws are dear to my heart since I carry a folding blade everywhere I go.  Further, on this Forum, I think the discussion of knife laws is particularly important.

You said;
"As for the right to not answer, I suppose so-- but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them.  Yes?"

And the answer is a resounding "No".

I think it's important to read the entire People v. Fannin decision.

"if the object is not a weapon per se, but an instrument with ordinary innocent uses, the prosecution must prove that the object was possessed as a weapon."

Anotherwords, if the defendant had simply remained silent it would/could not have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be an illegal "weapon".  A screwdriver is another example.  But if I admit as a defendant I'm carry a hidden long screwdriver or even a 5" sharpened thick pencil for self defense, it may now be considered a concealed illegal dirk or dagger.

Without my admission, the LEO can "negatively infer" all he wants to no avail. Without admission, the issue is not intent, but whether the instrument is an illegal weapon as specifically defined by the legislature.

My folding blade is legal in the state of CA.  If I am stopped by a police officer I may clearly say the purpose of this knife is self defense.  I have been stopped; no one has questioned my answer because this particular weapon is not on nor can it be inferred to be on the banned list.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3583170787390261601&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

====================

Allow me to clarify my intended meaning of these words:

" but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them.  Yes?""

It is my belief and philosophy that even if an arrest does not lead to conviction, as a practical matter you are thousands of dollars poorer and emotionally drained by your interaction with the legal system.  IMHO it is wise to keep this in mind when conversing with an officer.   Playing Perry Mason rarely plays well and even if he does not go after you for the arrest that will not lead to conviction he may decide to write you up for that tail light you did not realize was out, etc.   Good manners is good policy.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 07:40:42 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
JSworth
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« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 10:33:45 PM »


Allow me to clarify my intended meaning of these words:

" but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them.  Yes?""

It is my belief and philosophy that even if an arrest does not lead to conviction, as a practical matter you are thousands of dollars poorer and emotionally drained by your interaction with the legal system.  IMHO it is wise to keep this in mind when conversing with an officer.   Playing Perry Mason rarely plays well and even if he does not go after you for the arrest that will not lead to conviction he may decide to write you up for that tail light you did not realize was out, etc.   Good manners is good policy.

I would agree with that. I don't necessarily think however that it would be best to say that you have something for self defense though. If asked why I carry a knife (and as a side note my EDC is either my Rajah II or my Espada XL from Cold Steel) it's simply because it's a versatile tool which can come in handy in any number of both everyday and emergency situations. If asked for examples I can give them. I would never jump straight to "Oh, I carry this six inch Kukri style folding knife just in case I have to chop someones head off in an act of self-defense". I guess basically what my feeling on it is that while saying nothing may not be your best option, clearly full disclosure isn't either. I've always said just enough to keep the officer happy. The less I say, the less that can be misunderstood.
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G M
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« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2013, 10:59:21 AM »

I were in Cali, I'd explain that any knife was part of my earthquake 72 hour kit. A knife w/ a glass breaker and seatbelt cutter would tend to support that as well, although the Rajah II is cool.  cool
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« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2013, 09:43:33 PM »



UPDATE: TSA to Allow Small Knives Onboard Aircraft Again

In an announcement at an aviation conference in New York, TSA  administrator John
Pistole said that effective April 25 the TSA was is  lifting its ban on small knives
in the cabin. His comments weren't  entirely clear and the TSA has now posted a
slide show on their website  illustrating what will be allowed and what will still
be prohibited.  Click here to view the TSA "Changes to Prohibited Items List (PIL)"
 [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ei_52wBiQ6zXwuanIEc7UfDdeiUkMeKcb3fVZ3xoewJtgoTqCm0l1pRVD17ILMbGVIg472ZXQeAMLTUGaPs5ewkzlyUFc5e_EVacHEf2q4KVCBPT3d-m1w==]

Pistole said that the allowable knives will be limited to  "retractable blades shorter
than 6 centimeters (2.4 inches) and narrower  than 1/2 inch at the widest point."
 From the slide show it is clear  that by "retractable" he meant "folding." Still
prohibited would be  "knives with locking blades or molded handles," Pistole said.
Fixed  blade knives are also prohibited.

Keychain sized knives like the Victorinox "Classic" Swiss Army Knife  or Leatherman
"Squirt" or "Style" multi-tools are allowed. Also allowed  would be the 84mm SAKs,
such as the Victorinox Tinker that is  illustrated in the slide show or the Cadet.
Those SAKs have a 2.3-inch  blade, just under the limit.  There is bound to be some
confusion and  some very disappointed and perhaps upset travelers at the airports
due  to the fact that except for the blade being 5-7mm too long (Wenger or  Victorinox,
respectively), the most common 91 mm SAKs look virtually identical to the  smaller
frame SAK that is allowed. Whatever knife you are carrying  through the airport,
 be sure to ]measure the blade length from the handle  to the tip (not just the
sharp edge).

NOTE: The changes to the Prohibited Items List are effective April 25, 2013. Don't
try to carry a knife onboard before then!

To view the slides below full size, click here to view the TSA "Changes to Prohibited
Items List (PIL)" slide show in PDF format.
[http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ei_52wBiQ6zXwuanIEc7UfDdeiUkMeKcb3fVZ3xoewJtgoTqCm0l1pRVD17ILMbGVIg472ZXQeAMLTUGaPs5ewkzlyUFc5e_EVacHEf2q4KVCBPT3d-m1w==]

Victorinox and Leatherman have lobbied the TSA for many years for  this exemption
and it appears they final succeeded.  Congratulations!

The term "molded grip" is not an industry standard descriptive term  and has apparently
been invented by the TSA. It would appear to include  any handle that is at all
ergonomic and exclude anything but a  slab-sided SAK or multi-tool. One wonders
if the Wenger Evo or Evo-Grip  Swiss Army Knife handles would be allowed or prohibited?
 Beyond that, at least one of the knives illustrated as having a  "molded grip"
clearly has an ergonomic metal handle, which is not  molded plastic. We're guessing
that there will be further clarifications as  travelers lose knives to the TSA.

In the end, the final decision rests with TSA on whether to allow any  item through
security checkpoints. As many travelers have found out to  their chagrin and
disappointment,
TSA can be less than consistent at  times. Your safest bet is going to be to  stick
to the basics.

Razor blades and box cutters are still banned. Citing the 9/11  terrorists that
used box cutters to kill flight attendants on the  aircraft they hijacked, "there
is just too much emotion involved with  those," Pistole said.

Pistole said allowing these knives onboard would align the U.S. with  ICAO and European
standards and allow screeners to focus on the highest  priority threat, non-metallic
explosive devices. Since we have reports  of passengers being allowed onboard in
 Europe with locking blade  folders, we're still not clear how "aligned" this ends
up being.

While hardly entirely rational in nature, it is a step in the right  direction and
one virtually all knife carriers will celebrate.

The changes to the Prohibited Items List are effective April 25, 2013. Don't try
 to carry a knife onboard before then!
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« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2013, 05:47:13 PM »

Knife Rights News Slice eBlast - March 12, 2013
 
Help Get the Word Out!
 
 
Sign up for our FREE News Slice & eBlast newsletters: Sign up here   


 

Texas Knife Law Preemption Bill Hearing Wednesday
Write or Call Today!
Knife Rights Director of Legislative Affairs, Todd Rathner, will be in Austin, Texas, on Wednesday to testify in support of House Bill HB1299 that would enact Knife Law Preemption. Sponsored by Representative Jonathan Stickland, this bill was inspired by Knife Rights preemption bills that have successfully passed in in Arizona, Utah, New Hampshire and Georgia. Write or Call the committee members today and urge them to recommend passage of HB1219.
 
Preemption ensures citizens can expect consistent enforcement of state knife laws everywhere in a state. Preemption prevents the creation of, or eliminates, a patchwork of local ordinances and laws more restrictive than state law which serve to confuse or entrap those traveling within or through the state.
 
It is worth noting that the Chairman of the Urban Affairs Committee that is hearing HB1219, Rep. Harold V. Dutton, Jr., is the sponsor of House Bill HB936 which would repeal the irrational and antiquated Texas ban on switchblades. That bill has been assigned to the Criminal Jurisprudence Committee, but has not yet be calendared for a hearing. 
 
If you live, work or travel in Texas, please contact the Urban Affairs Committee members and ask them to recommend passage of HB1219  Click here for links to the Committee members.
 
Whether writing or calling, all that is necessary is to simply ask them to vote in favor of HB1219. Keep it short and to the point.
 
 

Tennessee Knife Rights Bill Passes Senate 27-3!
Last week the Tennessee Senate passed Senate Bill SB1015 on an overwhelming bipartisan majority vote of 27-3. Congratulations to sponsor Sen. Mike Bell. There is a companion bill in the Tennessee House, HB0581 sponsored by Rep. Vance Dennis, which is identical to SB1015 and we expect movement on that bill as soon as next week. Write or call your Representative NOW! 
 
SB1015 and HB0581 would enact Knife Law Preemption, repeal Tennessee's antiquated ban on automatic knives (switchblades) and repeal the the state's four-inch knife length limitation. Preemption ensures citizens can expect consistent enforcement of state knife laws everywhere in a state.
 
If you live, work or travel in Tennessee, please contact your Reprresentative and ask them to vote Yes on HB0581.  Click here to locate your Senator, and/or the Senator who represents where you work or travel.
 
Whether writing or calling, all that is necessary is to simply ask them to vote in favor of HB0581. Keep it short and to the point.
 
 

Kansas Knife Rights Bill Passes House 93-28!
Last week the Kansas House of Representatives passed HB2033 on a strong bipartisan vote of 93-28. It now moves to the Kansas Senate for their consideration.  HB2033 would enact Knife Law Preemption and repeal the Kansas ban on Switchblades, Dirks, Daggers and Stilettos.

Congratulations to Sponsors Representatives Richard Carlson, Mike Houser and Jim Howell. Thanks again to Patricia Stoneking of the Kansas State Rifle Association for her efforts in support of Knife Rights and HB2033.   
 
If you live, work or travel in Kansas, please write or call your Senator and ask them to vote in favor of HB2033. Kansas does not provide an easy way to find your legislator, if you don't know already, click here for a link to a map of the Senate districts, which can then be used to locate your Senator.  Click here for their phone number and email (listed by name and district).
 
Whether writing or calling, all that is necessary is to simply ask them to vote in favor of HB2033. Keep it short and to the point.
 

Help Knife Rights at Texas Mega Show in Dallas
Knife Rights will have a booth at the Texas Mega Show incorporating the Lone Star Knife Expo on April 13 & 14 and we need volunteers to help staff the booth. Click here to let us know if you can assist.
 
This is the largest gun and knife show in the Southwest. We will be displaying knives, firearms and other prizes in the 2013 Ultimate Steel™ Knives, Guns & More Spectacular fundraiser. We will also have on display Freedom's Steel™ II - Never Forget™, our extraordinary 2013 collaboration knife that will be auctioned at the NRA Annual Meeting.
 
 
 
This is a great opportunity to help Knife Rights and have a lot of fun. You'll receive a free pass, as well. Click here to let us know if you can assist.

 

You Can Help Knife Rights Make a Difference
Every success we have in a state legislature helps us with the next bill we try to get passed. Success builds upon success. It's much easier to gain sponsors and supporters for a bill when we can point to other states where similar bills have passed and there has been no adverse impact.
You can donate using our online donation page or,
follow directions on that page to mail your check or money order.
You can also call our office to donate or to set up a monthly automatic donation.
Call: 602-476-2702 or our toll-free number is 866-889-6268.
 
Knife Rights is America's Grassroots Knife Owners Organization™
The Second Front in Defense of the Second Amendment™
Leading the Fight for a Sharper Future for all Americans™
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2013, 09:07:11 PM »

Kansas Knife Rights Bill to Full Senate for Vote
Write or Call Today!
Knife Rights requested bill HB2033 that would enact Knife Law Preemption and repeal the Kansas ban on Switchblades, Dirks, Daggers and Stilettos has cleared a major hurdle in the Kansas Senate.  Yesterday our lobbyist, Todd Rathner, testified before the Senate Federal and State Affairs Committee and after the testimony was heard the committee took the somewhat unusual move of "working" the bill immediately. HB2033 passed the committee unanimously and now moves to the floor of the Kansas Senate for a final vote, possibly as soon as Monday. HB2033 has already passed the Kansas House.
 
If you live, work or travel in Kansas, please write or call your Senator ask them to vote in favor of HB2033. Kansas does not provide an easy way to find your legislator, if you don't know already, but click here for a link to a map of the Senate districts, which can then be used to locate your Senator: Click here for their phone number and email (listed by name and district).

Whether writing or calling, all that is necessary is to simply ask them to vote in favor of HB2033.  Keep it short and to the point.
Knife Rights would like to thank Patricia Stoneking from the KSRA for her testimony. We would also like to thank Rep. Jim Howell for his clear and impassioned testimony in favor of HB2033. He and Sponsor Rep. Richard Carlson have been instrumental in moving this bill along so effectively.
 
Preemption ensures citizens can expect consistent enforcement of state knife laws everywhere in a state. Preemption prevents the creation of, or eliminates, a patchwork of local ordinances and laws more restrictive than state law which serve to confuse or entrap those traveling within or through the state. Knife Rights has passed similar Knife Preemption Laws in Arizona, Utah, New Hampshire and Georgia and repealed irrational knife bans in New Hampshire, Washington and Missouri. 
 

Tennessee Knife Rights Bill Clears One House Committee
On to the the Next Committee - Write or Call Today!
Senate Bill SB1015, a Knife Rights requested bill that would enact Knife Law Preemption, repeal Tennessee's antiquated ban on automatic knives (switchblades) and repeal the the state's four-inch knife length limitation, has been voted out of House Criminal Justice Committee and now moves on to the House Finance Subcommittee on Ways and Means.   

If you live, work or travel in Tennessee, please contact your Representative and ask them to vote Yes on SB1015.  Click here to locate your Representative, and/or the Representative who represents where you work or travel.
 
Whether writing or calling, all that is necessary is to simply ask them to vote in favor of SB1015. Keep it short and to the point.

We would like to thank Senator Mike Bell for working so hard to keep this bill moving through the process.
 

Two Texas Pro-Knife Bill Need Your Help
Write or Call Today!
Knife Rights Director of Legislative Affairs Todd Rathner lobbied and testified in support of HB1299 last week in Austin, Texas. HB1299, sponsored by Representative Jonathan Stickland, would enact Knife Law Preemption in Texas. If you live, work or travel in Texas and have not already done so, Write or Call the Committee Members TODAY and urge them to recommend passage of HB1299. Click here for links to the Committee members. 
 
Whether writing or calling, all that is necessary is to simply ask them to vote in favor of HB1219. Keep it short and to the point.
 
While in Austin, Todd also worked on HB1862, which would repeal the irrational and antiquated Texas ban on switchblades. HB1862 is sponsored by Rep. Harold V. Dutton, Jr., who Chairs the Urban Affairs Committee that heard HB1299. That bill has been assigned to the Criminal Jurisprudence Committee, but has not yet been calendared for a hearing. You can help by Writing or Calling Criminal Jurisprudence Committee Chairman Rep. Abel Herrero and ask him to schedule a hearing on HB1862. Click here for Chairman Herrero's contacts. 
 
Questions from the Urban Affairs Committee Chairman and members revealed just how confusing Texas knife laws really are and the difficulty citizens have of knowing if their knife is legal in any particular place. During testimony the committee asked about blade lengths, operating and locking mechanisms, knife nomenclature and types while trying to determine for themselves what knives are legal and illegal to possess in Texas or in a particular city or town in Texas.

The questions and confusion clearly demonstrated the need for this Knife Law Preemption bill that would ensure citizens could expect consistent enforcement of state knife laws everywhere in the state. HB1299 would prevent the creation of, and eliminates the existing patchwork of local ordinances and laws more restrictive than state law which only serve to confuse or entrap those traveling within or through the state
 

Help Knife Rights at Texas Mega Show in Dallas
Knife Rights will have a booth at the Texas Mega Show incorporating the Lone Star Knife Expo on April 13 & 14 and we need volunteers to help staff the booth. Click here to let us know if you can assist.
 
This is the largest gun and knife show in the Southwest. We will be displaying knives, firearms and other prizes in the 2013 Ultimate Steel™ Knives, Guns & More Spectacular fundraiser. We will also have on display Freedom's Steel™ II - Never Forget™, our extraordinary 2013 collaboration knife that will be auctioned at the NRA Annual Meeting.
 
 
 
This is a great opportunity to help Knife Rights and have a lot of fun. You'll receive a free pass, as well. Click here to let us know if you can assist.

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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2013, 07:27:01 AM »

Knives and the Second Amendment
The first ever scholarly analysis of knives and the Second Amendment has been accepted for publication by the University of Michigan Journal of Law Reform. Researched and written by highly respected Second Amendment legal scholars David Kopel, Clayton Cramer and Joseph Edward Olson, the article makes the case that "Knives are clearly among the 'arms' which are protected by the Second Amendment." This supports one of the foundations for Knife Rights' efforts to protect our rights, "Essential Tools - Essential Rights."

As the abstract notes, "Under the Supreme Court's standard in District of Columbia v. Heller, knives are Second Amendment "arms" because they are "typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes," including self-defense. Bans of knives which open in a convenient way (bans on switchblades, gravity knives, and butterfly knives) are unconstitutional. Likewise unconstitutional are bans on folding knives which, after being opened, have a safety lock to prevent inadvertent closure. Prohibitions on the carrying of knives in general, or of particular knives, are unconstitutional."

Knife Rights applauds these scholars for this long-overdue effort. This is a great start on the sort of scholarly works that needs to be done to assist in potential legal cases down the road. The arguments made and supported in this article will also support our legislative efforts to roll back knife bans and oppose proposed new restrictions on knives. The initial draft of the article has been posted online. Go to the Social Science Research Network site to download the 37-page article.

Just a note of caution, for those unfamiliar with the process. This is the initial submission draft of this article. It will now go through an exhaustive peer review and editing process. Revisions will be posted online during that process. Only after that entire rigorous review process has been completed will the final version of the article be published. So, just to reiterate, this article is not published at this point and should not be relied upon for any legal effort, or for that matter, arguing with a cop who has arrested you for carrying a particular "illegal" knife. Having said all that, these scholars are leaders in the field and I wouldn't expect any substantive changes.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2013, 09:46:42 PM »


http://www.knifeup.com/illinois-knife-law/
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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2013, 12:36:07 PM »

Alaska Governor Parnell Signs Knife Rights Act
After two years of effort, Alaska Governor Sean Parnell has signed HB33, Alaska's Knife Rights Act, which enacts sweeping reform of Alaska's knife laws. HB33 legalizes the
 

(Top Photo - L to R) Behind Gov. Sean Parnell: Ray Thibault (AK Retailer Northern Knives ), Sen. Charlie Huggins, HB33 Sponsor Rep. Mark Neuman, House Speaker Rep. Mike Chenault, Rep. Wes Keller,
Rep. Bill Stoltze, Todd Rathner (Knife Rights)
possession, transfer and carrying of automatic knives (switchblades). It also enacts knife law preemption repealing all local knife laws as well as preventing new ones from being enacted.   

This law goes into effect on September 18, 2013.   
 
With Governor Parnell's signature, all of Knife Rights legislation passed this year has now been signed into law. Alaska becomes the 7th state to enact Knife Rights' signature Knife Law Preemption.

At the invitation of Governor Parnell, Knife Rights Director of Legislative Affairs, Todd Rathner, attended the signing ceremony in Palmer, Alaska.
 
Knife Rights would like to thank Governor Parnell for recognizing and expanding the rights of everyday Alaskans as well as the millions who visit Alaska every year to hunt, fish and recreate. We would also like to thank the sponsors of the HB33, Representative Mark Neuman and Senator Fred Dyson, for sponsoring this important legislation.Knife Rights would also like to thank Pro-Tech Knives for their support in helping to pass this legislation.
 
Knife Rights Scorecard This Year:
 
FIVE more Pro-Knife Bills!
Knife Ban Repeals in FOUR more states this year!
Knife Law Preemption in THREE more states this year!
 
Help Knife Rights continue to create a Sharper Future for all Americans™ with a donation in the Ultimate Steel Knives, Guns & More Spectacular!

 

Enactment Dates
for
Knife Right Legislation Passed This Year
The Knife Rights legislation passed this year is in effect as of the dates below:
 
Tennessee Knife Law Preemption
May 22, 2013
Kansas Knife Law Preemption
Kansas Ban on Switchblades, Dirks, Daggers & Stilettos Repealed
July 1, 2013
Indiana Ban on Switchblades Repealed
July 1, 2013
Texas Ban on Switchblades Repealed
September 1, 2013
Alaska Knife Law Preemption
Alaska Ban on Switchblades Repealed
September 18, 2013
 
Note that for states without knife law preemption, 
local laws more restrictive than state law are still in force.
 
Help Knife Rights continue to create a Sharper Future for all Americans™ with a donation in the Ultimate Steel Knives, Guns & More Spectacular!

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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2013, 08:52:57 PM »

http://home.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm
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bigdog
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« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2013, 04:23:03 AM »

A friend sent this along to me:

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/knives.pdf
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« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2013, 08:39:46 AM »

Knife Rights To Appeal Outrageous NYC Ruling
Obama-Appointed Judge Says
Those Arrested in NYC Have No Standing to Sue!
Please Help Us by Contributing Today!

A  U.S. District Court Judge has ruled that persons falsely arrested or  threatened
with arrest have no standing to sue in Knife Rights' Federal  civil rights lawsuit
against New York City and District Attorney Cyrus  Vance Jr.  Although every prior
ruling in the case went our way under  two previous judges, the case was recently
reassigned to Obama appointee  Katherine B. Forrest.  Litigation always presents
 the risk that a judge  (and especially a judge new to a case) will make an erroneous
ruling.

On Wednesday the judge ruled that the plaintiffs in our case - who have  been falsely
arrested or threatened with arrest over common pocket  knives - do not have standing
to sue, in part because the case documents  don't identify specific knives that
would be illegal under New York  City's interpretation of state law.  The trouble
is, it's nearly  impossible to identify them under New York City's haphazard and
  inconsistent approach - which is the whole point of the case in the first place!
  Even the DA has admitted that different specimens of the exact same  make and
model knife could be simultaneously found to be both legal and  illegal! Click to
read the judge's ruling.
[http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=0010abJYrLO6R1ufydSIPXZtzKE6uFc2TERIb5cIhIdCuieNORHqQm-g54xGzmNNytNM5XdM1cUynj75vQ5nfgpp54CSS8nEGKIAvU8kNOkHoLHA4WC-masfA5TguqEZvyQ207GVmbrSOiCJEIIzpj-5SSXMxNve5vntbZyOtw4IxE=]

So here we have a situation where we're suing because we can't know with certainty
what's legal or banned, yet the judge is saying we don't have standing to sue precisely
because we haven't identified what's legal or banned in our court papers.  That's
simply absurd!

But even if the judge were correct - which she is not - she was  required by
well-established
legal principles to allow us a chance to  amend our papers to "correct" the supposed
"defects."  Instead, she  simply ignored these principles and declared the case
over.

A similar situation arose in a recent lawsuit involving a U.S.  District Judge in
neighboring New Jersey.  After straining to find  supposed "defects" in the complaint
that affected standing, the judge  refused to allow the complaint to be amended
to correct the "defects."   On appeal, the ruling was reversed and the appeals court
criticized the  judge, saying she had abused her discretion.  The same thing could
 happen here.

But whatever happens, this ruling forces Knife Rights to spend more  time and money
to appeal the judge's decision - all while Rome continues  to burn. We still receive
calls every week from innocent citizens whose  lives have been turned upside down
simply because they carried a basic  tool, a pocket knife, in New York City.  Thousands
have been arrested on  bogus illegal knife charges. In at least one instance of
which we are aware, the result of the bogus arrest was that the victim's entire
knife collection was confiscated from his home. Gun owners  have had their firearms
confiscated based on bogus knife  arrests.

We cannot let New York City succeed in its attempt to redefine  "gravity knife"
to include ordinary folding knives.  This could become a  model for other cities
 and jurisdictions across America, resulting in  knife owners throughout the country
being arrested for doing nothing  wrong.  We cannot let that happen!  And, we will
not!

Knife Rights is carefully planning its response to Judge Forrest's  ruling.  We
will never stop fighting for your rights, and neither should  you.  Please help
us win this critical battle by contributing to Knife  Rights Foundation's Legal
Fund today as generously as you can.  We've  led the fight to defend knife rights
in the legislative arena and we are  pioneering it in the courts.  Please help us
defend freedom!

Make a tax-deductible donation
[http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=0010abJYrLO6R2U2zS_Bgv1cfpgH8IGnYDScEbdclseBI3CmfAAMau4U2TNbI9xCOH-phxBc2nHn7eqDdAtycJT1q1tcjQJwKEYXwrlU-D7EGIbmNc4hRHHPg==]
to the
Knife Rights Foundation Legal Fund TODAY!
Donate w CC
[http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=0010abJYrLO6R2U2zS_Bgv1cfpgH8IGnYDScEbdclseBI3CmfAAMau4U2TNbI9xCOH-phxBc2nHn7eqDdAtycJT1q1tcjQJwKEYXwrlU-D7EGIbmNc4hRHHPg==]
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