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G M
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« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2008, 09:19:15 AM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2505151/Beijing-Olympics-safe-despite-jihad-threat.html

Beijing Olympics 'safe' despite jihad threat
The Chinese government has promised that Islamic terrorists would not disrupt the Olympic games despite threats of a jihad in the western city of Kashgar.
 
By Malcolm Moore in Kashgar
Last Updated: 5:23PM BST 05 Aug 2008

With the games due to begin on Friday, authorities in Kashgar said the terrorists behind a bombing in the city on Monday were trying to "turn 2008 into a year of mourning for China".
Two men drove a lorry into a troop of policemen on a morning jog outside the Yijin hotel, killing 16 and injuring another 16, two critically.
"These men were trying to perform a jihad," said Shi Dagang, the Communist party secretary in Kashgar. "We found papers on one of the suspects saying that their religious beliefs are more important than their lives, the prosperity of their families and even the well-being of their mothers."
He said two Islamic groups, the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) and the East Turkestan Liberation Organization, could have been behind the attack, since materials on the suspects matched items recovered from an ETIM training camp in January. The groups want an independent region for the Uighurs, the ethnic Muslims that makes up the bulk of the population in Kashgar.
"This was well-planned, at least one month in advance," Mr Shi said. "They knew when the policemen were doing their exercises." He also revealed that 18 foreign terrorists had been arrested so far this year.
During the attack on Monday, the men threw home-made grenades at the policemen before stabbing them with knives, he added.
"One of the men lost his arm in the explosion," he said. The other is already on trial. We recovered nine grenades, two long knives, two daggers and a gun."
The two men were named as Abdul Rahman, 28, and Kurbanyan Ahmet, 33, both from Kashgar. Mr Shi said one was a taxi driver, the other was a hawker.
He promised a "severe and continuous crackdown" against the terrorists, who had previously warned they would carry out one attack each month in the run-up to the games. Other incidents included unrest in two other cities in Xinjiang and an attempted bombing of a China Southern jet from Urumqi, the state capital, to Beijing.
Nevertheless, the organisers of the games sought to reassure the 10,000 athletes and hundreds of thousands of expected tourists that they should not worry about security. "We can guarantee a safe and peaceful Olympic Games," said Sun Weide, a spokesman for the organising committee.
Security across Xinjiang province has been stepped up, with 5,000 armed policemen in Urumqi patrolling buses. Three men were reportedly detained at Urumqi airport on Monday afternoon as they tried to board a flight for Beijing with traces of explosives on their hands.
Special wireless devices were used to check the ID cards of Chinese citizens to see if their data matched blacklisted suspects, according to Xinhua. In Kashgar, however, the police tried to play down the threat, leaving the city more or less operating as normal.
Meanwhile, two Japanese journalists were arrested and beaten while trying to report on the bombing on Monday night.
Masami Kawakita, a photographer with the Tokyo Shimbun newspaper, said he was near the gates of the police compound when he was surrounded by soldiers. "They picked me up by the arms and legs and carried me into the courtyard. They kicked me in the ribs and arms and one stood on my head with his boot," he said.
Mr Kawakita, together with a reporter for Nippon Television, was detained for two hours without water or being allowed to make a telephone call before being released. The Japanese government said it planned to "protest strongly" to China over the alleged detention.
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G M
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« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2008, 08:06:32 PM »

China and the Enduring Uighurs
August 6, 2008



By Rodger Baker

On Aug. 4, four days before the start of the Beijing Olympics, two ethnic Uighurs drove a stolen dump truck into a group of some 70 Chinese border police in the town of Kashi in Xinjiang, killing at least 16 of the officers. The attackers carried knives and home-made explosive devices and had also written manifestos in which they expressed their commitment to jihad in Xinjiang. The incident occurred just days after a group calling itself the Turkistan Islamic Party (TIP) claimed responsibility for a series of recent attacks and security incidents in China and warned of further attacks targeting the Olympics.

Chinese authorities linked the Aug. 4 attack to transnational jihadists, suggesting the involvement of the East Turkistan Islamic Movement (ETIM), which Beijing has warned is the biggest terrorist threat to China and the Olympics. Despite the Chinese warnings and TIP claims and the intensified focus on the Uighurs because of the Aug. 4 attack, there is still much confusion over just who these Uighur or Turkistani militants are.



(Click map to enlarge)

The Uighurs, a predominately Muslim Turkic ethnic group largely centered in China’s northwestern Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region, have their own culture, language and written script distinct from their Han Chinese counterparts. Uighur ethnic nationalists and Islamist separatists have risen several times to challenge Chinese control over Xinjiang, but the Uighur independence movement remains fractured and frequently at odds with itself. However, recent evolutions within the Islamist militant Uighur movement, including growing links with transnational jihadist groups in Central and Southwest Asia, may represent a renewed threat to security in China.

Origins in Xinjiang
Uighur nationalism traces its origins back to a broader Turkistan, stretching through much of modern day Xinjiang (so-called “East Turkistan”) and into Central Asia. East Turkistan was conquered by the Manchus in the mid-1700s and, after decades of struggle, the territory was annexed by China, which later renamed it Xinjiang, or “New Territories.” A modern nation-state calling itself East Turkistan arose in Xinjiang in the chaotic transition from imperial China to Communist China, lasting for two brief periods from 1933 to 1934 and from 1944 to 1949. Since that time, “East Turkistan” has been, more or less, an integral part of the People’s Republic of China.

The evolution of militant Uighur separatism — and particularly Islamist-based separatism — has been shaped over time by both domestic and foreign developments. In 1940, Hizbul Islam Li-Turkistan (Islamic Party of Turkistan or Turkistan Islamic Movement ) emerged in Xinjiang, spearheading a series of unsuccessful uprisings from the 1940s through 1952, first against local warlords and later against the Communist Chinese.

In 1956, as the “Hundred Flowers” was blooming in China’s eastern cities, and intellectuals were (very briefly) allowed to air their complaints and suggestions for China’s political and social development, a new leadership emerged among the Uighur Islamist nationalists, changing the focus from “Turkistan” to the more specific “East Turkistan,” or Xinjiang. Following another failed uprising, the Islamist Uighur movement faded away for several decades, with only minor sparks flaring during the chaos of the Cultural Revolution.

In 1979, as Deng Xiaoping was launching China’s economic opening and reform, there was a coinciding period of Islamic and ethnic revival in Xinjiang, reflecting the relative openness of China at the time. During this time, one of the original founders of Hizbul Islam Li-Turkistan, Abdul Hakeem, was released from prison and set up underground religious schools. Among his pupils in the 1980s was Hasan Mahsum, who would go on to found ETIM.

The 1980s were a chaotic period in Xinjiang, with ethnic and religious revivalism, a growing student movement, and public opposition to China’s nuclear testing at Lop Nor. Uighur student protests were more a reflection of the growing student activism in China as a whole (culminating in the 1989 Tiananmen Square incident) than a resurgence of Uighur separatism, but they coincided with a general movement in Xinjiang to promote literacy and to refocus on religious and ethnic heritage. Amid this revival, several Uighur separatist or Islamist militant movements emerged.

A critical moment occurred in April 1990, when an offshoot of the Uighur Islamist militant movement was discovered plotting an uprising in Xinjiang. The April 5 so-called “Baren Incident” (named for the city where militants and their supporters faced off against Chinese security forces) led Beijing to launch dragnet operations in the region, arresting known, suspected or potential troublemakers — a pattern that would be repeated through the “Strike Hard” campaigns of the 1990s. Many of the Uighurs caught up in these security campaigns, including Mahsum, began to share, refine and shape their ideology in prisons, taking on more radical tendencies and creating networks of relations that could be called upon later. From 1995 to 1997, the struggle in Xinjiang reached its peak, with increasingly frequent attacks by militants in Xinjiang and equally intensified security countermeasures by Beijing.

It was also at this time that China formed the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), enlisting Central Asian assistance in cracking down on Uighur militants, many of whom had fled China. In some ways this plan backfired, as it provided common cause between the Uighurs and Central Asian militants, and forced some Uighur Islamist militants further west, to Pakistan and Afghanistan, where they would link up with the Taliban, al Qaeda, and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU), among others.

Among those leaving China was Mahsum, who tried to rally support from the Uighur diaspora in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Turkey but was rebuffed. Mahsum and a small group of followers headed to Central Asia and ultimately Afghanistan, where he established ETIM as a direct successor to his former teacher’s Hizbul Islam Li-Turkistan. By 1998, Kabul-based ETIM began recruiting and training Uighur militants while expanding ties with the emerging jihadist movement in the region, dropping the “East” from its name to reflect these deepening ties. Until the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, ETIM focused on recruiting and training Uighur militants at a camp run by Mahsum and Abdul Haq, who is cited by TIP now as its spiritual leader.

With the U.S. attack on Afghanistan in October 2001, ETIM was routed and its remnants fled to Central Asia and Pakistan. In January 2002, Mahsum tried to distance ETIM from al Qaeda in an attempt to avoid having the Uighur movement come under U.S. guns. It did not work. In September 2002, the United States declared ETIM a terrorist organization at the behest of China. A year later, ETIM experienced what seemed to be its last gasps, with a joint U.S.-Pakistani operation in South Waziristan in October 2003 killing Hasan Mahsum.

A Movement Reborn?
Following Mahsum’s death, a leaderless ETIM continued to interact with the Taliban and various Central Asian militants, particularly Uzbeks, and slowly reformed into a more coherent core in the Pakistan/Afghanistan frontier. In 2005, there were stirrings of this new Uighur Islamist militant group, the Turkistan Islamic Party (TIP), which established a robust presence on the Internet, posting histories of the Uighur/Turkistan people in western China and Central Asia and inspirational videos featuring Mahsum. In 2006, a new video surfaced calling for jihad in Xinjiang, and later that year there were reports that remnants of ETIM had begun re-forming and moving back into far western Xinjiang.

It was also around this time that Beijing began raising the specter of ETIM targeting the Olympics — a move seen at the time as primarily an excuse for stricter security controls. In early January 2007, Beijing raided a camp of suspected ETIM militants near the Xinjiang border with Tajikistan, and a year later raided another suspected camp in Urumchi, uncovering a plot to carry out attacks during the Olympics. This was followed in March by a reported attempt by Uighur militants to down a Chinese airliner with gasoline smuggled aboard in soda cans.

Publicly, the Uighur militant issue was quickly swept aside by the Tibetan uprising in March, leaving nearly unnoticed an anti-government protest in Hotan and a series of counterterrorism raids by Chinese security forces in late March and early April that reportedly found evidence of more specific plots to attack Beijing and Shanghai during the Olympics.

In the midst of this security campaign, TIP released a video, not disseminated widely until late June, in which spokesman Commander Seyfullah laid out a list of grievances against Beijing and cited Abdul Haq as calling on Uighur Islamist militants to begin strikes against China. The video also complained that the “U.S.-led Western countries listed the Turkistan Islamic Party as one of the international terrorist organizations,” an apparent reference to the United States’ 2002 listing of the ETIM on the terrorist exclusion list.

In addition to linking the TIP to the ETIM, the April video also revealed some elements of the movement’s evolution since the death of Mahsum. Rather than the typical rhetoric of groups closely linked to the Wahabi ideology of al Qaeda, TIP listed its grievances against Beijing in an almost lawyer-like fashion, following more closely the pattern of Hizb al-Tahrir (HT), a movement active in Central Asia advocating nonviolent struggle against corrupt regimes and promoting the return of Islamic rule. Although HT officially renounces violence as a tool of political change, it has provided an abundance of zealous and impatient idealists who are often recruited by more active militant organizations.

The blending of the HT ideologies with the underlying principles of Turkistan independence reflects the melding of the Uighur Islamist militancy with wider Central Asian Islamist movements. Fractures in HT, emerging in 2005 and expanding thereafter, may also have contributed to the evolution of TIP’s ideology; breakaway elements of HT argued that the nonviolent methods espoused by HT were no longer effective.

What appears to be emerging is a Turkistan Islamist movement with links in Central Asia, stretching back to Afghanistan and Pakistan, blending Taliban training, transnational jihadist experiential learning, HT frameworks and recruiting, and Central Asian ties for support and shelter. This is a very different entity than China has faced in the past. If the TIP follows the examples set by the global jihadist movement, it will become an entity with a small core leadership based far from its primary field of operations guiding (ideologically but not necessarily operationally) a number of small grassroots militant cells.

The network will be diffuse, with cells operating relatively independently with minimal knowledge or communication among them and focused on localized goals based on their training, skills and commitment. This would make the TIP less of a strategic threat, since it would be unable to rally large numbers of fighters in a single or sustained operation, but it would also be more difficult to fight, since Beijing would be unable to use information from raiding one cell to find another.

This appears to be exactly what we are seeing now. The central TIP core uses the Internet and videos as psychological tools to trigger a reaction from Beijing and inspire militants without exposing itself to detection or capture. On July 25, TIP released a video claiming responsibility for a series of attacks in China, including bus bombings in Kunming, a bus fire in Shanghai and a tractor bombing in Wenzhou. While these claims were almost certainly exaggerated, the Aug. 4 attack in Xinjiang suddenly refocused attention on the TIP and its earlier threats.

Further complicating things for Beijing are the transnational linkages ETIM forged and TIP has maintained. The Turkistan movement includes not only China’s Uighurs but also crosses into Uzbekistan, parts of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan and spreads back through Central Asia all the way to Turkey. These linkages may have been the focus of quiet security warnings beginning around March that Afghan, Middle Eastern and Central Asian migrants and tourists were spotted carrying out surveillance of schools, hotels and government buildings in Beijing and Shanghai — possibly part of an attack cycle.

The alleged activities seem to fit a pattern within the international jihadist movement of paying more attention to China. Islamists have considered China something less imperialistic, and thus less threatening, than the United States and European powers, but this began changing with the launch of the SCO, and the trend has been accelerating with China’s expanded involvement in Africa and Central Asia and its continued support for Pakistan’s government. China’s rising profile among Islamists has coincided with the rebirth of the Uighur Islamist militant movement just as Beijing embarks on one of its most significant security events: the Summer Olympics.

Whatever name it may go by today — be it Hizbul Islam Li-Turkistan, the East Turkistan Islamic Movement or the Turkistan Islamic Party — the Uighur Islamist militant movement remains a security threat to Beijing. And in its current incarnation, drawing on internationalist resources and experiences and sporting a more diffuse structure, the Uighur militancy may well be getting a second wind.

Tell Stratfor What You Think

This report may be forwarded or republished on your website with attribution to www.stratfor.com
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G M
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« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2008, 10:17:03 PM »

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/A-US-Monitor-Says-Chinese-Islamic-Group-Posts-New-Video-Threatening-Beijing-Olympics/Article/200808115073304?lpos=World%2BNews_1&lid=ARTICLE_15073304_A%2BUS%2BMonitor%2BSays%2BChinese%2BIslamic%2BGroup%2BPosts%2BNew%2BVideo%2BThreatening%2BBeijing%2BOlympics

Olympic Terrorism Threat 

8:41pm UK, Thursday August 07, 2008
An Islamic group has threatened attacks against the Olympics in China and urged Muslims to stay away from events there.



The threat, attributed to the Turkistan Islamic Party (TIP), is contained in a new video which shows a burning Olympics logo and an explosion imposed over a venue to be used for the Beijing Games.
It claims the communist regime's alleged mistreatment of Muslims justifies holy war.
The TIP is an ethnic Uighur and Muslim organisation that is seeking to create an independent state in China's heavily Muslim Xinjiang province.
It is believed to be based across the border in Pakistan, where security experts say it has received training from al Qaeda.
Earlier this week, a bomb attack in the city of Kashgar in Xinjiang killed 16 policemen.
The August 1 video, called "Call to the Global Muslim Nation", was picked up by two US terrorism monitoring firms - the SITE Intelligence Group and IntelCenter.
The tape said: "Do not stay on the same bus, on the same train, on the same plane, in the same buildings, or any place the Chinese are."
A speaker appeared on the video holding an AK-47 assault rifle and wearing a black turban and face cover.
He spoke in front of a black banner carrying the words in Arabic: "There is no God other than Allah, Mohammad is the messenger of God".
The speaker called on Muslims to offer support financially, physically, spiritually and verbally.
"China ... rejects Islam and forces Muslims into atheism by capturing and killing Islamic teachers and destroying Islamic schools," he argued.
In July, Chinese authorities denied claims by the group that it was behind a series of bombings ahead of the Olympics.
The TIP had previously released a video threatening the Games and claimed responsibility for deadly bus blasts in Shanghai and in Kunming, capital of the southwestern province of Yunnan.
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G M
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« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2008, 09:47:59 AM »

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/08/print/china_discovers_al_qaeda_in_it.php

Counterterrorism Blog

China discovers al Qaeda in its backyard

By Walid Phares

In a video accusing China’s Communist Government of “mistreating Muslims” a Jihadi group threatened to attack the Summer Games in Beijin. A spokesman of the Turkistan Islamic Party accuses China of “forcing Muslims into atheism and destroying Islamic schools. The “Turkistan Islamic Party” is most likely based across the border in Pakistan, where sources affirm it received training from Al Qaeda.

Weeks ago the organization claimed responsibility for a bombings across the country. The latest video shows graphics of a burning Olympics logo and explosions. This week, attackers killed 16 police and wounded more than a dozen in the Xinjiang city of Kashgar using homemade bombs.

But according to AP reports few months ago, Chinese Police broke up a terror plot targeting the Beijing Olympics while a flight crew foiled attempt to crash a Chinese plane. Per Communist Party officials in the North Western province of Xinjiang, materials seized in a January 27 raid in the regional capital, Urumqi, suggested the plotters' planned "specifically to sabotage the staging of the Beijing Olympics." Earlier reports said police found guns, homemade bombs, training materials and "extremist religious ideological materials" during the January raid in Urumqi, in which two members of the gang were killed and 15 arrested. The immediate question becomes: Is China targeted by a Terror organization? And since the material found was characterized as “extremist religious ideological”, does that mean it is al Qaeda or one of its affiliate? The answer to these questions could change the face of geopolitics in Asia.

Interestingly the Associated Press runs to frame the Terrorists to a local ethnic conflict in one of China’s Western provinces. AP wrote: “Chinese forces have for years been battling a low-intensity separatist movement among Xinjiang's Uighurs, a Turkic Muslim people who are culturally and ethnically distinct from China's Han majority.” The news agency has tried to set the agenda of the debate by scoring three points for the “radicals.” They are separatists, they are representative of a local ethnicity and they are Muslim. In addition the description of the struggle is informative: Chinese forces versus a Uighur movement. In a way a parallel to Kosovo, Chechnya and Kashmir with two projected effects. As framed by AP, the struggle of these “Terrorists” is indeed legitimate even though the means are violent. But is it the case?

Evidently the Chinese Communists are repressive against all other minorities and political dissidents. But as in Russia and India’s Wahabi cases, one would investigate if these particular Terrorists in China are local patriotic elements with liberal outlook. Not really. As under the Russians in Chechnya it looks like the Communists in China are battling another form of totalitarianism to come: Jihadism.

Chinese officials said the group had been trained by and was following the orders of a radical group based in Pakistan and Afghanistan called the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, or ETIM. The group has been labeled a terrorist organization by the United Nations and the United States. East Turkestan is another name for Xinjiang. So the “movement” is indeed Terrorist-identified by the international community. But other than its violent means, is that group linked to al Qaeda? There is a double answer to this question. First the group is indeed Jihadi Wahabi-Salafi as its long term objective is to separate a particular province from China but only to establish an Emirate, a prelude to join the world Caliphate. Hence ideologically it is part of the world web of internationalist Jihadis, who identify with Bin Laden’s school of thought. Second in many instances, al Qaeda produced material showing Chinese Jihadists training in their camps. In the chat rooms, the Salafi commentators often cite the presence of “brothers” from the Xinjiang. And let’s remind ourselves that upon the fall of Tora Bora in 2001, Chinese officials asked US military to extradite Chinese nationals who we part of the Taliban and al Qaeda networks in Afghanistan. So the bottom line is that the Bin Laden cohorts included Jihadis recruited from inside China’s Western province. As in Chechnya a local ethnic separatist claim exists but the struggle was hijacked by the Jihadi terror forces.

Hence as China is discovering al Qaeda in its own backyard, this begs powerful questions:

1.   If these Jihadists will escalate their Terror against Chinese cities and installations -and the recent discoveries indicate this trend- will Beijing find itself in the same trench as Washington that is against al Qaeda and the Salafists?

2.   And if that becomes the case, will China continue to pursue a policy of support to other Jihadist forces, including the Islamist regime in Khartoum?

3.   If Communism and Jihadism clash again in the 21st century inside the Asian superpower, will its resources rich Western province becomes a new Afghanistan with Jihadists converging from central Asia and other parts f the world?

For now Chinese officials are downplaying the danger altogether and dismissing the threat: "Those in Xinjiang pursuing separatism and sabotage are an extremely small number,” said a pro Government Uighur leader. “They may be Uighurs, but they can't represent Uighurs. They are the scum of the Uighurs," regional communist official Bekri said. But that is what Russian officials always said about Chechnya and their Indian counterparts argued about Kashmir. Jihadism has demonstrated that its adherents can swiftly recruit and expand, especially if international Wahabis are generous and committed. Hence the answer to this critical new “Jihad” will come from as far as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia but also from the smaller principality of Qatar, where al Jazeera can transform a local separatist movement into an uprising in the name of the Umma.

***********

Dr Walid Phares is the Director of the Future Terrorism Project at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and a visiting scholar at the European Foundation for Democracy. He is the author of The Confrontation: Winning the War against Future Jihad

By Walid Phares on August 7, 2008 10:47 PM
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2008, 10:48:31 AM »

Good piece GM.

I do find myself doubting some of what I understand to be your unerlying hypothesis.  My current sense of things is that the Chinese govt will be the totalitarian assh*le that it is in dealing with its  Islamo Fascists, and that this will affect nothing in their dealings with us.
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G M
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« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2008, 11:09:51 AM »

China needs us to buy their consumer goods to keep the Chinese people employed for internal stability. If the jihadists pull off an attack or attacks during the Olympics, they will harm China's collective "face". The Politburo doesn't care about dead/wounded Chinese citizens, unless there were red princes/princesses among the casualties, but the loss of face would be a causus belli for them.

To successfully engage an element of the global jihad requires a global, systemic strategy, not just targeting hajis in Xinjiang. To do so would require some reshaped alliances.
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« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2008, 02:55:30 PM »

"To successfully engage an element of the global jihad requires a global, systemic strategy, not just targeting hajis in Xinjiang."

Why?
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G M
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« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2008, 08:04:03 PM »

**China has to content with the same "virtual caliphate" that we do to address the jihad it faces from it's muslim population.**

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/4868381.html

Strategically, the fact that the global jihad does not have one single master plan or one single mastermind in no way means that the enemy lacks clearly identifiable centers of gravity. At the risk of considerable simplification, the global jihad can be said to actually rest on five asymmetrical “pillars”: al-Saud, al-Azhar, al Qaeda, al-Jazeera — with the proverbial “fifth column” in the role of fifth pillar. In a nutshell: In the past thirty years, through clever manipulation of financial, educational, and informational levers, Saudi Arabia has used its soft power to alter the theo-political balance of power in the Muslim world and to turn itself into a virtual Caliphate, using Muslim IOs and NGOs as force multipliers. The concurrent transformation of the Cairo-based al-Azhar University during the same period is possibly the most overlooked element in the global jihad; more than just the oldest Muslim university, al-Azhar is the closest thing to an informal Supreme Court of the Muslim world, denying or granting legitimacy to a peace treaty with Israel (1965 and 1979 respectively) or calling for jihad against the American presence in Iraq (March 2003). In the past 30 years, the Saudi takeover of al-Azhar has so shifted the center of gravity of the Muslim political discourse that the rhetoric of al-Azhar today is indistinguishable from that of the Muslim Brotherhood, its former nemesis. Al Qaeda and Al-Jazeera, though more recent phenomena, have managed in less than two decades to become the recruiting, training, and advertising bases of the global jihad. Last but not least, the academic Fifth Column in the West, ever faithful to its historical role of “useful idiot” (Lenin), is increasingly providing both conceptual ammunition and academic immunity to crypto-jihadists, making Western campuses safe for intellectual terrorism.9
Taken together, these five pillars constitute something halfway between the “deep coalitions” theorized by contemporary Western strategists, and an informal command-and-control of global jihad. If only in a metaphorical sense, then, command-and-control warfare (C2W) offers the best template for a counter-jihad at the level of grand strategy. The identification of these five pillars as centers of gravity is meant to remind us that the destiny of 1.2 billion Muslims is today inordinately shaped by a few thousand Saudi princes, Egyptian clerics, and Gulf news editors, and that therefore the guiding principle of the war of ideas should be the principle of economy of force. Don’t say, for instance, “Islam needs its Martin Luther,” if only because his 95 theses ushered in a 150-year-long bloody insurgency within Christendom. Say instead, “The Saudi Caliphate needs to undertake its own Vatican II.”10
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« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2008, 04:15:05 AM »

I say this with complete sincerity GM-- that was very interesting.

I can see that I need to sharpen my question a bit.  My hesitation with your analysis comes from not seeing the Chinese as seeing this as something for which they will particularly benefit from working with us.  I can see them as looking to solve the problem as they do so many others (e.g. Tibet) -- by being the totalitarian pricks that they are and by dilution with Chinese population.
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G M
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« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2008, 04:44:43 AM »

Tibet is isolated, and mostly is filled with non-violent buddhists. All the "Free Tibet" bumper stickers in the world mean nothing to the PLA, People's Armed Police and Ministry for State Security crushing dissent in Lhasa.
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« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2008, 05:35:04 AM »

I'm thinking the Chinese will to be violent has something to do with it too , , , Anyway, my doubt of your hypothesis remains.   Furthermore, I can see them using this to increase their totalitarian control-- which my libertarian self notes includes quite a few million cameras everywhere watching everything.
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G M
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« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2008, 09:08:01 AM »

In the late 90's, I thought with China would continue on it's path towards human rights as it's economy modernized. Instead it's become more totalitarian since Hu Juntao rose to power. Yes, China's power structure has demonstrated an incredible ruthlessness internally and externally since 1949 and can go "1989" anytime it feels threatened.
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« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2008, 09:29:19 PM »


Fatal blasts hit Chinese province

At least two people have been killed and several hurt after a series of blasts hit the western Chinese province of Xinjiang, state media has reported.

It said gunfire was also heard in the early hours in southern Kuqa county.

The attacks happened at offices belonging to the local government and security forces, a spokesman for the World Uighur Congress told the BBC.

Earlier this week, China said 16 policemen were killed in an attack by Islamist separatists in Xinjiang.

"There were several explosions in several places in Kuqa this morning," said a woman who was on duty at the Kuqa People's Hospital, quoted by the Associated Press news agency.

She said several people were in critical condition.

Olympics threat

World Uighur Congress spokesman Dilxat Raxit told the BBC that the Chinese government was responsible for the latest blasts because of what he called repressive policies in Xinjiang.

"In order to stop the East Turkestan situation getting worse, I urge the international community to exert pressure on China to immediately stop its systematic repressive government policies," he said.

Xinjiang is home to many Muslim Uighur people.

Kuqa county itself is almost exclusively populated by Uighurs.

Uighur separatists in Xinjiang have waged a low-level campaign against Chinese rule for decades.

The incident comes a day after the Olympic Games opened in Beijing, with a spectacular display of fireworks, music and dancing.

Human rights groups say Beijing is suppressing the rights of Uighurs.

Correspondents say China has spoken in the past of what it calls a terrorist threat from Muslim militants in Xinjiang, but it has provided little evidence to back up its claims.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/7551954.stm

Published: 2008/08/10 01:49:03 GMT

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« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2008, 10:46:20 AM »

Here's one for you GM. Its the NY Times, so caveat lector:

KHOTAN, China — The grand mosque that draws thousands of Muslims each week in this oasis town has all the usual trappings of piety: dusty wool carpets on which to kneel in prayer, a row of turbans and skullcaps for men without headwear, a wall niche facing the holy city of Mecca in the Arabian desert.

But large signs posted by the front door list edicts that are more Communist Party decrees than Koranic doctrines. The imam’s sermon at Friday Prayer must run no longer than a half-hour, the rules say. Prayer in public areas outside the mosque is forbidden. Residents of Khotan are not allowed to worship at mosques outside of town.  One rule on the wall says that government workers and nonreligious people may not be “forced” to attend services at the mosque — a generous wording of a law that prohibits government workers and Communist Party members from going at all.

“Of course this makes people angry,” said a teacher in the mosque courtyard, who would give only a partial name, Muhammad, for fear of government retribution. “Excitable people think the government is wrong in what it does. They say that government officials who are Muslims should also be allowed to pray.”

To be a practicing Muslim in the vast autonomous region of northwestern China called Xinjiang is to live under an intricate series of laws and regulations intended to control the spread and practice of Islam, the predominant religion among the Uighurs, a Turkic people uneasy with Chinese rule.  The edicts touch on every facet of a Muslim’s way of life. Official versions of the Koran are the only legal ones. Imams may not teach the Koran in private, and studying Arabic is allowed only at special government schools.

Two of Islam’s five pillars — the sacred fasting month of Ramadan and the pilgrimage to Mecca called the hajj — are also carefully controlled. Students and government workers are compelled to eat during Ramadan, and the passports of Uighurs have been confiscated across Xinjiang to force them to join government-run hajj tours rather than travel illegally to Mecca on their own.

Government workers are not permitted to practice Islam, which means the slightest sign of devotion, a head scarf on a woman, for example, could lead to a firing.

The Chinese government, which is officially atheist, recognizes five religions — Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Taoism and Buddhism — and tightly regulates their administration and practice. Its oversight in Xinjiang, though, is especially vigilant because it worries about separatist activity in the region.

Some officials contend that insurgent groups in Xinjiang pose one of the biggest security threats to China, and the government says the “three forces” of separatism, terrorism and religious extremism threaten to destabilize the region. But outside scholars of Xinjiang and terrorism experts argue that heavy-handed tactics like the restrictions on Islam will only radicalize more Uighurs.

Many of the rules have been on the books for years, but some local governments in Xinjiang have publicly highlighted them in the past seven weeks by posting the laws on Web sites or hanging banners in towns.

Those moves coincided with Ramadan, which ran from September to early October, and came on the heels of a series of attacks in August that left at least 22 security officers and one civilian dead, according to official reports. The deadliest attack was a murky ambush in Kashgar that witnesses said involved men in police uniforms fighting each other.

The attacks were the biggest wave of violence in Xinjiang since the 1990s. In recent months, Wang Lequan, the long-serving party secretary of Xinjiang, and Nuer Baikeli, the chairman of the region, have given hard-line speeches indicating that a crackdown will soon begin.

Mr. Wang said the government was engaged in a “life or death” struggle in Xinjiang. Mr. Baikeli signaled that government control of religious activities would tighten, asserting that “the religious issue has been the barometer of stability in Xinjiang.”

Anti-China forces in the West and separatist forces are trying to carry out “illegal religious activities and agitate religious fever,” he said, and “the field of religion has become an increasingly important battlefield against enemies.”

---------------
(Page 2 of 2)

Uighurs are the largest ethnic group in Xinjiang, accounting for 46 percent of the population of 19 million. Many say Han Chinese, the country’s dominant ethnic group, discriminate against them based on the most obvious differences between the groups: language and religion.

Times Topics: UighursThe Uighurs began adopting Sunni Islam in the 10th century, although patterns of belief vary widely, and the religion has enjoyed a surge of popularity after the harshest decades of Communist rule. According to government statistics, there are 24,000 mosques and 29,000 religious leaders in Xinjiang. Muslim piety is especially strong in old Silk Road towns in the south like Kashgar, Yarkand and Khotan.

Many Han Chinese see Islam as the root of social problems in Xinjiang.

“The Uighurs are lazy,” said a man who runs a construction business in Kashgar and would give only his last name, Zhao, because of the political delicacy of the topic. “It’s because of their religion,” he said. “They spend so much time praying. What are they praying for?”

The government restrictions are posted inside mosques and elsewhere across Xinjiang. In particular, officials take great pains to publicize the law prohibiting Muslims from arranging their own trips for the hajj. Signs painted on mud-brick walls in the winding alleyways of old Kashgar warn against making illegal pilgrimages. A red banner hanging on a large mosque in the Uighur area of Urumqi, the regional capital, says, “Implement the policy of organized and planned pilgrimage; individual pilgrimage is forbidden.”

As dozens of worshipers streamed into the mosque for prayer on a recent evening, one Uighur man pointed to the sign and shook his head. “We didn’t write that,” he said in broken Chinese. “They wrote that.”  He turned his finger to a white neon sign above the building that simply said “mosque” in Arabic script. “We wrote that,” he said.

Like other Uighurs interviewed for this article, he agreed to speak on the condition that his name not be used for fear of retribution by the authorities.

The government gives various reasons for controlling the hajj. Officials say that the Saudi Arabian government is concerned about crowded conditions in Mecca that have led to fatal tramplings, and that Muslims who leave China on their own sometimes spend too much money on the pilgrimage.  Critics say the government is trying to restrict the movements of Uighurs and prevent them from coming into contact with other Muslims, fearing that such exchanges could build a pan-Islamic identity in Xinjiang.

About two years ago, the government began confiscating the passports of Uighurs across the region, angering many people here. Now virtually no Uighurs have passports, though they can apply for them for short trips. The new restriction has made life especially difficult for businessmen who travel to neighboring countries.

To get a passport to go on an official hajj tour or a business trip, applicants must leave a deposit of nearly $6,000.

One man in Kashgar said the imam at his mosque, who like all official imams is paid by the government, had recently been urging congregants to go to Mecca only with legal tours.

That is not easy for many Uighurs. The cost of an official trip is the equivalent of $3,700, and hefty bribes usually raise the price. Once a person files an application, the authorities do a background check into the family. If the applicant has children, the children must be old enough to be financially self-sufficient, and the applicant is required to show that he or she has substantial savings in the bank. Officials say these conditions ensure that a hajj trip will not leave the family impoverished.

Rules posted last year on the Xinjiang government’s Web site say the applicant must be 50 to 70 years old, “love the country and obey the law.”

The number of applicants far outnumbers the slots available each year, and the wait is at least a year. But the government has been raising the cap. Xinhua, the state news agency, reported that from 2006 to 2007, more than 3,100 Muslims from Xinjiang went on the official hajj, up from 2,000 the previous year.

One young Uighur man in Kashgar said his parents were pushing their children to get married soon so they could prove the children were financially independent, thus allowing them to qualify to go on the hajj. “Their greatest wish is to go to Mecca once,” the man, who wished to be identified only as Abdullah, said over dinner.

But the family has to weigh another factor: the father, now retired, was once a government employee and a Communist Party member, so he might very well lose his pension if he went on the hajj, Abdullah said. 

The rules on fasting during Ramadan are just as strict. Several local governments began posting the regulations on their Web sites last month. They vary by town and county but include requiring restaurants to stay open during daylight hours and mandating that women not wear veils and men shave their beards.

Enforcement can be haphazard. In Kashgar, many Uighur restaurants remained closed during the fasting hours. “The religion is too strong in Kashgar,” said one man. “There are rules, but people don’t follow them.”

One rule that officials in some towns seem especially intent on enforcing is the ban on students’ fasting. Supporters of this policy say students need to eat to study properly.  The local university in Kashgar adheres to the policy. Starting last year, it tried to force students to eat during the day by prohibiting them from leaving campus in the evening to join their families in breaking the daily fast. Residents of Kashgar say the university locked the gates and put glass shards along the top of a campus wall.

After a few weeks, the school built a higher wall.

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« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2009, 10:57:36 AM »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124685864855299373.html#printMode

ASIA NEWS JULY 6, 2009, 11:32 A.M. ET
Scores Reported Dead in China After Riots
By GORDON FAIRCLOUGH and JASON DEAN

SHANGHAI -- The official death toll in riots in China's northwestern Xinjiang region rose sharply Monday, with the government saying that 140 had been killed in what appears to be one of the deadliest episodes of unrest in China in decades.

Police said at least 828 other people were injured in violence that began Sunday in Urumqi, Xinjiang's capital. Witnesses said the conflicts pitted security forces against demonstrators, and members of the region's Turkic-speaking Uighur ethnic group against members of the country's Han Chinese majority. Many among the predominantly Muslim Uighurs have chafed at Chinese government rule.

The official tally of dead and injured increased Monday as more information came out of Urumqi through the state-run Xinhua news agency, although it appeared that most or all of the violence had ended by the early hours of Monday.

Xinhua quoted Liu Yaohua, a senior police official in Xinjiang, as saying that rioters had burned 261 vehicles, including 190 buses and two police cars, several of which were still ablaze as of Monday morning. Mr. Liu said the death toll of 140 "would still be climbing."

As evening fell in Urumqi Monday, witnesses said that paramilitary troops of the People's Armed Police, backed by armored personnel carriers, were patrolling largely calm city streets. Many businesses remained shuttered and gates of the city's central bazaar, which was the scene of unrest Sunday night, were closed.

Police said they were still searching for dozens of people suspected of fanning the violence. Several hundred people have already been arrested in connection with the riot, police said, and the government said it was bringing "ethnic officials" from nearby areas to help with interrogations.

Uighur activists said hundreds of Uighurs, many of them students, had gathered Sunday to protest racial discrimination and call for government action against the perpetrators of an attack last month on Uighur migrant workers at a toy factory in southern China. In that incident, a group of Han Chinese broke into a factory dormitory housing Uighur workers. State media reported that two people were killed. Uighur groups say the death toll may have been higher.

The protests appear to have spun out of control late Sunday, with clashes between protestors and police as well as ethnic violence around the city. Xinhua's report Monday said that 57 dead bodies had been "retrieved from Urumqi's streets and lanes," while the remaining fatalities were confirmed dead at hospitals.

An official in the nursing department of one of Urumqi's largest hospitals, the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region People's Hospital, said the hospital received 291 people injured in the unrest. Seventeen of them died, and more than 20 others were in critical condition on Monday night.

The official said that 233 of the injured were Han Chinese, 39 were Uighurs and the rest belonged to other ethnic minority groups. Seven of the injured had gunshot wounds, she said.

Uighurs have long complained about restrictions on their civil liberties and religious practices imposed by a Chinese government fearful of political dissent in strategically important Xinjiang, which covers one-sixth of China's territory and is also an important oil-and-gas-producing region.

Many Uighurs resent what they see as economic and social discrimination by the majority Han Chinese, who have migrated to Xinjiang in growing numbers. Some Uighurs, seeking independence from China, have waged sporadic and at times violent campaigns against the government.

Pictures said to be of the Sunday's protests distributed by the Washington-based Uyghur American Association showed young Uighurs marching in Urumqi, in some cases carrying the Chinese flag. Pictures also showed phalanxes of helmeted police in riot gear, with shields and batons.

Demonstrators clashed with the police, witnesses said, and rioters smashed shops and attacked buses. "Most were young Uighurs. They were smashing everything on the street," said one Han Chinese man who works as a driver.

Another Han Chinese man, who owns a shop in the city's central bazaar, said he saw Uighurs "with big knives stabbing people" on the street. He said crowds of Hans and Uighurs were fleeing the violence. "They were targeting Han, mostly," he added. "We need to hide inside for a few more days."

The government blamed the unrest on a prominent exiled Uighur leader, Rebiya Kadeer, president of the World Uyghur Congress, an activist group. Sunday's demonstration was "instigated and directed from abroad," according to a government statement cited by Xinhua.

Alim Seytoff, vice president of the Uyghur American Association, dismissed the government's claim, saying, "Every time something happens, they blame Ms. Kadeer." He added: "It's really the Chinese government's heavy-handed policies that create such protests and unrest."

Unrest in Xinjiang mounted last year, as some Uighurs sought to emulate widespread antigovernment demonstrations in Tibetan areas. There were several violent incidents around the time of last summer's Beijing Olympics, including an attack on a border-police unit that left 16 dead. Ten militants died after another attack with improvised explosives in a Xinjiang city on the first weekend of the Games.

Write to Gordon Fairclough at gordon.fairclough@wsj.com and Jason Dean at jason.dean@wsj.com
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« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2009, 08:59:44 AM »

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gtOBNpRVLjLpYPH44fs87rt2kmPA

Al-Qaeda vows to hit China over Uighur unrest
By Polly Hui – 1 day ago

HONG KONG (AFP) — Al-Qaeda is threatening for the first time to attack Chinese interests overseas in retaliation for the deaths of Muslims in the restive region of Xinjiang, according to a risk analysis group.
The call for reprisals against China comes from the Algerian-based offshoot Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM), according to a summary of its report sent to AFP by the international consultancy Stirling Assynt.
"Although AQIM appear to be the first arm of Al-Qaeda to officially state they will target Chinese interests, others are likely to follow," said the report, which was first divulged by the South China Morning Post Tuesday.
Osama bin Laden's network has not previously threatened China, but the Stirling report said a thirst for vengeance over Beijing's clampdown in Xinjiang was spreading over the global jihadist community.
Hundreds of thousands of Chinese work in the Middle East and North Africa, including 50,000 in Algeria, estimated the group, which has offices in London and Hong Kong providing risk advice to corporate and official clients.
"This threat should be taken seriously," Stirling said, basing its information on people who it said had seen the AQIM instruction.
"There is an increasing amount of chatter ... among jihadists who claim they want to see action against China.
"Some of these individuals have been actively seeking information on China's interests in the Muslim world, which they could use for targeting purposes."
Stirling said the extremist group could well target Chinese projects in Yemen in a bid to topple the Beijing-friendly government of President Ali Abdullah Saleh.
The intelligence firm also noted Al-Qaeda's killing of 24 Algerian security officers who were meant to be protection for Chinese engineers three weeks ago.
"On that occasion they did not attack the Chinese engineers because the target was the project on which they were working.
"Now, future attacks of this kind are likely to target security forces and Chinese engineers alike," the report said.
The most likely scenario would be that Al-Qaeda's central leadership would encourage their affiliates in North Africa and the Arabian peninsula to attack Chinese targets near at hand, it said.
Al-Qaeda centrally does "not want to open a new front with China," the analysis said.
"But equally their sense of Muslim solidarity compels them to help and/or to be seen to be helping. This is also a factor in helping the organisation regain support and funding from their global constituency."
Chinese authorities have said that riots in the Xinjiang city of Urumqi by Muslim Uighurs on July 5 left 184 people dead -- most of whom were Han, China's dominant ethnic group -- and more than 1,600 injured.
Uighur leaders accuse Chinese forces of opening fire on peaceful protests, in the latest unrest to rock the Muslim-majority region of Xinjiang.
Chinese authorities have previously blamed low-level attacks on Xinjiang's East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), which Beijing, the United States and the United Nations list as a terrorist organisation.
China has also said that ETIM militants have received some training and funding from Al-Qaeda.
However, many experts have told AFP that they doubt the ETIM is a major threat in Xinjiang, and some lawmakers in the United States are pushing for the terrorist label to be lifted.
The US government meanwhile last month released four Uighurs from the Guantanamo Bay detention site, years after clearing them of any wrongdoing. Beijing's bid to have them extradited was denied and they are now in Bermuda.
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« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2009, 06:24:35 PM »

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=3.0.3849585514

China: Al-Qaeda urges holy war to defend Muslims


Rome, 7 October (AKI) - A leading Al-Qaeda militant on Wednesday called on Muslims worldwide to defend Uighurs in China's restive northwestern region of Xinjiang. He told Uighurs to prepare for a holy war or Jihad and urged a "vast media campaign" to raise awareness of their fate at the hands of "oppressive" China.

In the video posted to jihadist websites, Abu Yahya al-Libi appeared to launch a frontal assault against China.

"This massacre is not being carried out by criminal Crusaders or evil Jews who have committed crimes against our nation," al-Libi stated.

"Today, a new massacre is being carried out by Buddhist nationalists and communists against the Muslim population in eastern Turkestan," said al-Libi.

Islamists call Xinjiang East Turkestan. Uighurs are Muslims native to Xinjiang province, and have cultural ties to Turkic peoples in Central Asia.

"There is no way to remove injustice and oppression without a true return to their (Uighurs) religion and ... serious preparation for Jihad in the path of God the Almighty and to carry weapons in the face of those (Chinese) invaders," he said.

"It is a duty for Muslims today to stand by their wounded and oppressed brothers in East Turkestan ... and support them with all they can," al-Libi added.

Al-Libi claims terrible crimes are being perpetrated in Xinjiang "which nobody can see," urging a media campaign to give these crimes the same visibility as those "carried out by westerners against Muslims."

He also accused China of using "satanic ways" to oppress Muslims in the province and replace them with other ethnicities while "looting their wealth and undermining their culture and religion."

"Tens of thousand of people have been silently killed to prevent a revolt. The communist Chinese government has tried to eliminate all links between eastern Turkestan and the Islamic nation by sending colonisers to constantly reduce the number of Muslims," he stated.

Another tactic China is using to exterminate Muslims is calling the province Xinjiang instead of eastern Turkestan, just as Palestine's name as been changed to Israel, al-Libi argued.

He described China's presence in Xinjiang as an "occupation" and claimed the colonisation of the province has made the Muslim population a minority.

"The Chinese have closed all the Islamic schools, forbidding the study of the Muslim religion. They have arrested and killed all the Muslim leaders," he said.

Xinjiang is also the province where China is carrying out the largest number of nuclear experiments, al-Libi alleged.

"Thousands of people have died from the radiation emitted by the many nuclear missiles that have been launched and the experiments carried out in the area," al-Libi concluded.

Uighurs make up 8 million people out of Xinjiang's population of 20 million. It covers one-sixth of the country and is relatively sparsely populated.

A total of 197 people were killed over several days of unrest in Xinjiang in July and rioting in the capital Urumqi. Most of those who died were from the Han Chinese majority.

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« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2011, 10:50:18 AM »

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/china-says-extremists-trained-abroad-behind-attack-west-034315503.html

BEIJING (Reuters) - China said on Monday that Islamic militants had mounted an attack that left 11 people dead in the restive western region of Xinjiang, which announced a crackdown on "illegal" religious activities at the start of the Muslim fasting month.
 
The attack in Kashgar city on Sunday afternoon was the latest violence to rattle the region where Muslim Uighurs have long resented the presence of Han Chinese and religious and political controls imposed by Beijing.
 
It came less than 24 hours after two small blasts hit the city, which is dominated by Uighurs.
 
"The malign intention behind this violent terror was to sabotage inter-ethnic unity and harm social stability, provoking ethnic hatred and creating ethnic conflict," the Kashgar government said on its website (http://www.xjks.gov.cn).
 
Captured suspects confessed that their ringleaders had earlier fled to Pakistan and joined the separatist "East Turkestan Islamic Movement," and received training in making firearms and explosives before infiltrating back into China, the Kashgar government said.
 
"The members of this group all adhere to extremist religious ideas and adamantly support Jihad," said the statement, referring to the Arabic term for struggle used by advocates of militant Islam to describe their cause.
 
Police shot dead five people and arrested four others after they stormed a restaurant, set in on fire after killing the owner and a waiter, and then ran onto the street and hacked to death four people, Xinhua news agency reported.
 
The Chinese-language Global Times newspaper said all the suspected attackers were Uighur.
 
For the ruling Communist Party, the bloodshed presents a tricky test of its control in Xinjiang, where Uighur and Han Chinese residents view each other with suspicion. (For more on the issues see.)

**You won't see any senior CCP members meeting with imams and speaking about how islam is a religion of peace. You will see an iron fist and bloodshed.
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« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2011, 11:27:11 AM »

I firmly believe that we need a government that is similar to China's!!!!  I support you on this 100% GM! 
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« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2011, 12:01:00 PM »

I firmly believe that we need a government that is similar to China's!!!!  I support you on this 100% GM! 

Funny enough, you can fight a war to win without changing your gov't.
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« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2011, 01:00:26 PM »

I firmly believe that we need a government that is similar to China's!!!!  I support you on this 100% GM! 

Funny enough, you can fight a war to win without changing your gov't.

Hmmmmm, really?  Not according to your prior quote. 

"You will see an iron fist and bloodshed."
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« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2011, 01:13:11 PM »

I firmly believe that we need a government that is similar to China's!!!!  I support you on this 100% GM! 

Funny enough, you can fight a war to win without changing your gov't.

Hmmmmm, really?  Not according to your prior quote. 

"You will see an iron fist and bloodshed."

That's what will happen. Do you doubt that?

How does that apply to us changing our gov't?

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bigdog
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« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2011, 04:27:05 PM »

Were you not posting the article because you are pleased with the manner in which the Chinese dealt with the Islamic militants?  Do the US and Chinese have a similar governing ethos?  Do the Chinese have the individual rights that Americans have?

If you were pleased, as you insinuate; since the US and China do not have a similar governing ethos; and because the Chinese do not have the rights that Americans have (as discussed in the governing document) then the US would have to adopt a similar government to that of China (or at least alter the government we do have in a similar vein) to fight Islamic militants in the same manner that the Chinese do.

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« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2011, 05:32:04 PM »

BD,

What form of govenment did we have in WWII? Do you know who Adm. "Bull" Halsey was?

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« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2011, 06:08:01 PM »

We had the kind of government that gave civilian trials to German sabateurs, GM.  Is this what you are advocating?

And, yes I do.  Are you aware of the difference between foreign and domestic affairs? 

The article you posted was about the Chinese POLICE killing militants in CHINA.  Why would you bring up a military officer?  Are you now arguing that, like the Chinese, the war on terror is better dealt with by the police? 

Like it or not, we still have the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments. 
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« Reply #75 on: August 01, 2011, 07:09:49 PM »

Over to you GM  smiley
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« Reply #76 on: August 01, 2011, 07:13:13 PM »

"We had the kind of government that gave civilian trials to German sabateurs, GM.  Is this what you are advocating?"

We did?

Ex parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942), is a Supreme Court of the United States case that upheld the jurisdiction of a United States military tribunal over the trial of several Operation Pastorius German saboteurs in the United States. Quirin has been cited as a precedent for the trial by military commission of any unlawful combatant against the United States.
 
It was argued July 29 and July 30, 1942 and decided July 31, 1942 with an extended opinion filed October 29, 1942.
 
This decision states:
 



 
…the law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants are subject to capture and detention as prisoners of war by opposing military forces. Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals.
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« Reply #77 on: August 01, 2011, 07:24:09 PM »

"And, yes I do."

Are you horrified by his saying "Before we're through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell."? I know, that was back when when winning a war was seen as a good thing.
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bigdog
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« Reply #78 on: August 01, 2011, 07:32:30 PM »

As I recall, the USSC is still a civilian court that holds trials.  I am aware of the case, since I teach it.  I am aware of the precedent.  But CASE was before the civilian court.

He fought the war internationally.  You still haven't addressed my point.
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« Reply #79 on: August 01, 2011, 07:57:53 PM »

As I recall, the USSC is still a civilian court that holds trials.  I am aware of the case, since I teach it.  I am aware of the precedent.  But CASE was before the civilian court.

He fought the war internationally.  You still haven't addressed my point.

So the military tribunal wasn't really a military tribunal because the USSC reviewed it?

Were those nazi saboteurs captured on US soil by civillian law enforcement?
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« Reply #80 on: August 01, 2011, 08:06:44 PM »

Conservatives have complained about the USSC review of military tribunals in the War on Terror, but not Quirin.  Why?  You like the outcome.  That's it.  But the USSC is a civilian court.

You still fail to tell me how Halsey's international actions compare to China's domestic ones, GM. 
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« Reply #81 on: August 01, 2011, 09:12:37 PM »

Conservatives have complained about the USSC review of military tribunals in the War on Terror, but not Quirin.  Why?  You like the outcome.  That's it.  But the USSC is a civilian court.

The nazi saboteurs were tried by a military tribunal, which was upheld by the USSC, correct?
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« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2011, 09:26:35 PM »

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/08/110808fa_fact_schmidle?currentPage=all

Three SEALs shuttled past Khalid’s body and blew open another metal cage, which obstructed the staircase leading to the third floor. Bounding up the unlit stairs, they scanned the railed landing. On the top stair, the lead SEAL swivelled right; with his night-vision goggles, he discerned that a tall, rangy man with a fist-length beard was peeking out from behind a bedroom door, ten feet away. The SEAL instantly sensed that it was Crankshaft. (The counterterrorism official asserts that the SEAL first saw bin Laden on the landing, and fired but missed.)
 
The Americans hurried toward the bedroom door. The first SEAL pushed it open. Two of bin Laden’s wives had placed themselves in front of him. Amal al-Fatah, bin Laden’s fifth wife, was screaming in Arabic. She motioned as if she were going to charge; the SEAL lowered his sights and shot her once, in the calf. Fearing that one or both women were wearing suicide jackets, he stepped forward, wrapped them in a bear hug, and drove them aside. He would almost certainly have been killed had they blown themselves up, but by blanketing them he would have absorbed some of the blast and potentially saved the two SEALs behind him. In the end, neither woman was wearing an explosive vest.
 
A second SEAL stepped into the room and trained the infrared laser of his M4 on bin Laden’s chest. The Al Qaeda chief, who was wearing a tan shalwar kameez and a prayer cap on his head, froze; he was unarmed. “There was never any question of detaining or capturing him—it wasn’t a split-second decision. No one wanted detainees,” the special-operations officer told me. (The Administration maintains that had bin Laden immediately surrendered he could have been taken alive.) Nine years, seven months, and twenty days after September 11th, an American was a trigger pull from ending bin Laden’s life. The first round, a 5.56-mm. bullet, struck bin Laden in the chest. As he fell backward, the SEAL fired a second round into his head, just above his left eye. On his radio, he reported, “For God and country—Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo.” After a pause, he added, “Geronimo E.K.I.A.”—“enemy killed in action.”
_______________________________________________________________

You want these SEALs charged with murder, right BD? If not, why not?
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bigdog
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« Reply #83 on: August 02, 2011, 03:16:33 AM »

GM, until you actually respond to your fallacious comparison of China's domestic actions vs. Halsey's international actions, I am done with this conversation.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #84 on: August 02, 2011, 05:51:50 AM »

Over to you GM  smiley
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G M
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« Reply #85 on: August 02, 2011, 08:47:37 AM »

GM, until you actually respond to your fallacious comparison of China's domestic actions vs. Halsey's international actions, I am done with this conversation.
Having painted yourself into a corner by claiming the nazi saboteurs tried by military tribunals were tried by civillian courts, I can imagine you are eager to abandon this thread.
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bigdog
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« Reply #86 on: August 02, 2011, 11:17:13 AM »

So you are wimping out?
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G M
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« Reply #87 on: August 02, 2011, 11:50:04 AM »

Hardly. Ad. Halsey expressed a mindset required to win, unencumbered by political correctness. To win, one must be willing to break your enemy's will to fight. You fight according to the way the war needs to be fought to win if you wish to win. That means adjusting to the realities at hand rather than trying to insist on Marquess of Queensberry Rules when surrounded by outlaw bikers who mean to stomp you into a bloody corpse. Adapt or die.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #88 on: August 02, 2011, 01:01:35 PM »

So, you are advocating that domestically we do it like the Chinese do?
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G M
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« Reply #89 on: August 02, 2011, 01:37:36 PM »

I'm advocating that we stop being the bunch of weak, spineless Oprah-audience members this country has turned into. If you asked the average Han Chinese about the "root causes" of muslim violence in Xinjiang, they'd tell you they don't give a cao and they were glad the People's Armed Police was crushing them.

I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that right now, there are lots of muslims in the custody of the Ministry of State Security going through things that make waterboarding seem like a walk on a spring day. Some of them won't ever been seen again.

Where is the UN? Where is the EU? Where are the protests? Flotillas?
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G M
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« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2011, 02:43:06 PM »


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/271844/marilyn-monroe-doctrine-clifford-d-may#

July 14, 2011 12:00 A.M.
The Marilyn Monroe Doctrine
There was a time when those who targeted Americans paid a price. That was our policy — and our reputation.


In 1957, Marilyn Monroe starred in The Prince and the Showgirl. In the movie’s most memorable scene, Monroe (as Elsie Marina, an understudy in The Coconut Girl in 1911 London who is soon hobnobbing with the royals) overhears a telephone conversation (in German — but Elsie is from Milwaukee so she’s bilingual as well as gorgeous) about a plot against the Prince Regent of Carpathia, played by Laurence Olivier.
 
“It is most unfortunate that you should have heard that,” the dastardly Balkan plotter snarls. “It might prove exceedingly dangerous for you!”
 
 “Dangerous?” scoffs Elsie. “Oh, don’t give me that. I’m an American citizen. Nobody can do anything to me!”
 
This ideal of an America that is strong, unafraid, and certainly doesn’t let its enemies get away with murder was not just a Hollywood conceit. The Prince and the Showgirl was made at London’s Pinehurst Studios. It was written by Terrence Rattigan, a distinguished dramatist, a graduate of Harrow and Oxford, who would be knighted by the Queen in 1971. Olivier, in addition to starring, produced and directed.
 
Fast forward to the 1980s. Journalist Peter Theroux is a guest at a small palace in Riyadh along with Saudi princes and wealthy businessmen from several Middle Eastern countries. After supper, they screen The Prince and the Showgirl, and, as recounted in Theroux’s marvelous travel memoir, Sandstorm: Days and Nights in Arabia, when Marilyn Monroe delivers the line quoted above, “every Arab in the room” shouts in unison: “Eiri fik, ya gahba!” (“F*** you, b****!”)
 
Fast forward to the present. Last week, Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told members of the Pentagon Press Association: “Iran is very directly supporting extremist Shiite groups which are killing our troops. There is no question they are shipping high-tech weapons in there . . . that are killing our people. And the forensics prove that. . . . And there’s no reason . . . for me to believe that they’re going to stop that as our numbers come down.”
 
Did I miss the uproar over this? Did the cable-news shows break away from the wall-to-wall Casey Anthony coverage to at least take note of the fact that a top American official has now confirmed what only a few analysts — e.g. Michael Ledeen, a scholar at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies — have long alleged: that Iran is not just threatening America — Iran is waging war against America and has been for decades? Iran sent its terrorist proxy, Hezbollah, to slaughter U.S. Marines in Beirut in 1983, collaborated with al-Qaeda to mass-murder Americans at Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia in 1996, facilitated attacks on the American troops who brought down Saddam Hussein in Iraq, and is now again targeting Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan as well.
 
Why didn’t George W. Bush, when he was president, make Iran pay a price for spilling American blood? Why isn’t Barack Obama doing so now? I’m guessing that advisers to both counseled against “widening” the conflict.
 
Elliott Abrams, who was an adviser to President Bush, and whose advice — I’m guessing again — often was not taken, blogged last week that
 

soon we will have a new Secretary of Defense and a new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and one can only hope that we will also have a new policy: that neither Iran nor any other government can kill Americans with impunity. The least we owe servicemen and women who risk their lives for our country is the certainty that when we know a foreign government is trying to kill them, we will act to stop it. If we adopted such a policy, we would never again have to hear a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs reveal such a set of facts and suggest as an American response#…#well, nothing.
 
And, by the way, the response need not be boots on the ground in Iran. We could go much further than we have to cripple Iran’s economy. And imagine if, any time American servicemen in Iraq or Afghanistan were killed by an Iranian-manufactured rocket, roadside bomb, or explosively-formed projectile (designed to penetrate armor), one of the factories where those weapons were being produced was, without fanfare, reduced to rubble. America-haters would yell what was yelled at Marilyn Monroe/Elsie Marina. But they’d get the message that, as a matter of both principle and policy, Americans don’t let their enemies get away with killing them.
 
I can’t leave you without recalling how The Prince and the Showgirl ends. In what might be seen as a democracy-promotion effort, Elsie foils the plotters and persuades the prince — who, until he met her, had no patience for “nonsense about political freedom and democratic rights . . . When will these crazy Americans grow up?” — to return to Carpathia and hold a general election. Rattigan and Olivier leave the audience wondering: Will the prince and the showgirl marry? And will there be a Balkan Spring? Perhaps it’s time for a sequel.
 
—Clifford D. May is president of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a policy institute focusing on terrorism and political Islam.
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Cranewings
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« Reply #91 on: August 02, 2011, 03:40:26 PM »

I'm advocating that we stop being the bunch of weak, spineless Oprah-audience members this country has turned into. If you asked the average Han Chinese about the "root causes" of muslim violence in Xinjiang, they'd tell you they don't give a cao and they were glad the People's Armed Police was crushing them.

I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that right now, there are lots of muslims in the custody of the Ministry of State Security going through things that make waterboarding seem like a walk on a spring day. Some of them won't ever been seen again.

Where is the UN? Where is the EU? Where are the protests? Flotillas?

(: And no matter how much I agree with conservative economics, this is half of why I'll probably never vote for a Republican (the rest being gay rights and keeping conservative men out of women's pants).

Torture is wrong. Terrorists want us to resort to it and to hopefully use it on innocent Muslims, to radicalize them. God knows if someone from the state tortured an innocent family member of mine, they better kill me because I would lose my mind. To break the cycle of violence we need to live according to the law and demonstrate compassion.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 03:45:34 PM by Cranewings » Logged
bigdog
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« Reply #92 on: August 02, 2011, 03:41:36 PM »

This doesn't really answer Guro's question, which is much the same as I have been asking you for a couple days.  I want to know explicitly how you tie Halsey's actions (not single line quote) to China's domestic crackdown.  I then want to know, explicitly, why you think China's domestic crackdown should be emulated in the United States.  I then want to know, explicitly, how that domestic crackdown would not violate several constitutional amendments.  

I'm advocating that we stop being the bunch of weak, spineless Oprah-audience members this country has turned into. If you asked the average Han Chinese about the "root causes" of muslim violence in Xinjiang, they'd tell you they don't give a cao and they were glad the People's Armed Police was crushing them.

I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that right now, there are lots of muslims in the custody of the Ministry of State Security going through things that make waterboarding seem like a walk on a spring day. Some of them won't ever been seen again.

Where is the UN? Where is the EU? Where are the protests? Flotillas?
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Cranewings
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« Reply #93 on: August 02, 2011, 03:43:06 PM »

please delete
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 03:47:37 PM by Cranewings » Logged
G M
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« Reply #94 on: August 02, 2011, 04:43:26 PM »

"To break the cycle of violence we need to live according to the law and demonstrate compassion."

Cycle of violence? I guess that explains why after burning most of the Japanese cities to the ground and nuking two, we're still at war with them, right?
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G M
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« Reply #95 on: August 02, 2011, 04:52:27 PM »

So, you are advocating that domestically we do it like the Chinese do?

No, my point was the intent and the aggression. No mealy-mouthed appeasement.
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G M
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« Reply #96 on: August 02, 2011, 04:57:02 PM »

"Torture is wrong. Terrorists want us to resort to it and to hopefully use it on innocent Muslims, to radicalize them. God knows if someone from the state tortured an innocent family member of mine, they better kill me because I would lose my mind. To break the cycle of violence we need to live according to the law and demonstrate compassion."

So, when the clean, anaseptic drone strikes result in collateral damage, meaning non-combatants within the blast radius suffer death and serious wounds, that's ok with you, right? Sure, the severed limbs won't grow back and the burns will be treated with the best medical care to be found in the tribal regions of Pakistan, but at least the jihadist the strike was targeted at wasn't waterboarded.....
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G M
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« Reply #97 on: August 02, 2011, 05:23:56 PM »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYeYlXfzGew

No water, just Hellfire.
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DougMacG
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« Reply #98 on: August 02, 2011, 05:26:35 PM »

"Sure, the severed limbs won't grow back and the burns will be treated with the best medical care to be found in the tribal regions of Pakistan, but at least the jihadist the strike was targeted at wasn't waterboarded....."

We should be careful with sleep deprivation too.  Young jihadists need their rest, even in captivity.
----
"keeping conservative men out of women's pants"

For another thread, but wouldn't it be the abortionist, not the anti abortion politician who is literally in the woman's 'pants', if I read that inference correctly.  Relating it to China and Islam, China and Islam (and Dem politicians here) should at least can find common ground in their shared disrespect for females, as Asia approaches the 200 million mark for slaughtering more young girls than boys, more than the entire female population of the United States.  Such caring about innocent women!  http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700150378/Modern-gendercide.html

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Cranewings
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« Reply #99 on: August 02, 2011, 06:28:47 PM »

"Torture is wrong. Terrorists want us to resort to it and to hopefully use it on innocent Muslims, to radicalize them. God knows if someone from the state tortured an innocent family member of mine, they better kill me because I would lose my mind. To break the cycle of violence we need to live according to the law and demonstrate compassion."

So, when the clean, anaseptic drone strikes result in collateral damage, meaning non-combatants within the blast radius suffer death and serious wounds, that's ok with you, right? Sure, the severed limbs won't grow back and the burns will be treated with the best medical care to be found in the tribal regions of Pakistan, but at least the jihadist the strike was targeted at wasn't waterboarded.....

Hopefully I didn't say it was ok with me in a previous post, because it isn't. I don't know what the solution there is, but the solution doesn't require the torture of captives.
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