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Author Topic: Battle of grand masters  (Read 17093 times)
dogfighter
Guest
« on: October 01, 2003, 04:08:36 PM »

I found a pekiti tirsia pit bulls website that mentioned something about a no holds bared kali stickfighting competition called (BATTLE OF THE MASTERS). This competition was organized by pekiti tirsia Philippines inc. in 1998. They claim no one outside of  there organization accepted the challenge. Invited were ,grandmasters and masters from 15 different styles to compete in a (GRANDMASTER and MASTER) division. It was open to  other advanced fighters who would apparently be fighting in an (ADVANCED STUDENT) division. Rules were, Total submission policy. No protection, no gloves, no helmet, no referee, no padded sticks,, no time limit, no rules. Fights occurred on a challenge basis. Can Crafty, or someone  give us more detailed info. on this and current statis of this proposed tournament. Thank you in advance.  Dogfighter
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leeland
Guest
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2003, 08:49:20 PM »

YEAH!!! is this challenge still on? because i'm going to buy a round trip ticket to the philippines and challenge all the 90 year old grandmasters and all the 50 year old masters.  i'm only 20 years old, so i'll kick all their asses.  i'm bad, and i'm glad.  and i'm going to kick everyones' ass!!!  and then some!!! i'll beat up anyone's grandmaster!!!

(p.s.--i was being sarcastic.  can anybody say INFANTILE?  that above challenge [obviously unlike dogbrothers' matches, meant to evolve the art] is a greatest example of "little kids with sticks")
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2003, 08:54:00 PM »

infantile, or merely a culture you don't understand?
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leeland
Guest
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2003, 09:25:29 PM »

remember in grade school, when kids say things like "my dad can beat up your dad", or "i'm going to kick your dad's ass"?

if you don't think that's infantile, it's because you're infantile.

grow up.

martial arts is for self defense and personal evolution.  not for infantile challenge matches, that have no relevant benefits.

if you've gone to any dogbrothers gathering you'll understand this.
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burnsson
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Posts: 8


« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2003, 01:04:00 AM »

what about fun, experience and personal discipline?

not to forget the social event!
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2003, 10:56:28 AM »

what i'm saying is that the people who originated these arts tested them in that way. the dogbrothers do it in a safer and more p.c. way, but that doesn't mean it better or worse. to put yourself on the line to test your art is the highest commitment. i'm not willing to do it and neither are you, but that doesn't mean that those that are are infantile. what you in your lifestyle believe to be infantile to others raised differently is the way it's done. saying my dad can beat yours is infantile, but a far stretch from saying i can beat you and am willing to prove it at my own risk.
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leeland
Guest
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2003, 12:35:17 PM »

the death matches in the philippines happened because people needed to eat and survive.  they participated in these matches for economic gain.  or for one's honor.  

the above challenge, given the fact that the majority of martial artists today are in the upper middle class, is for vanity.  it's that simple.  no one's hungry, no one's has been dishonored.  vanity is the only reason for this challenge, and that is infantile and idiotic.  there is no tangible benefit for others.

saying, "i'm the best and i'll kick everyone's ass!!!" is infantile, when it is solely for one's vanity.  it's that simple.
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leeland
Guest
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2003, 12:39:26 PM »

Quote from: Guest
i can beat you and am willing to prove it at my own risk.



are we back in elementary school? that is the most idiotic statement any grown man can say to another.  what's the utility in this statement? vanity is not a virtue, it is one's shortcoming.  you've been watching "fight club" haven't you?
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leeland
Guest
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2003, 12:45:01 PM »

Quote from: burnsson
what about fun, experience and personal discipline?

not to forget the social event!


exactly!!! we don't practice these arts for vanity, so we can challenge random people. and when they do not accept, because they are more mature, the more infantile practitioner interprets that as weakness.  vanity. i believe this is also what's called the 'green belt' mentality, in which the person with 2 yrs training attempts to challenge more advance martial artists.  vanity is not strenght, it is weakness.
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cebu eskrima
Guest
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2003, 12:54:50 PM »

Here in Cebu, people say that the "Grand Masters" who always challenge others are still not fully developed as Martial Artists.  They challenge others because of their insecurities.

The true Grand Masters are the ones who are very quiet of their own lethality.  They don't have to challenge others to know they are Lethal, because they already know.
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2003, 03:25:08 PM »

leeland,

 we have a difference of opinion thats all, i don't see how you attacking me helps your arguement at all. people fight for many reasons, not just the ones you listed. their way maybe different than yours, but it is their way. my only point is everything in life is based on perpective, and people see things differently it doesn't mean they are idiotic.
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2003, 05:29:16 PM »

Check out web page@                                                            www.pekiti-tirsia.net/index.php?file=actions_1998&lang=en                 Here I found a story that explains what happened in more detail.       (very interesting)
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sting
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Posts: 289


« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2003, 06:03:13 PM »

"i can beat you and am willing to prove it at my own risk."
>are we back in elementary school? that is the most idiotic statement any grown man can say to another.

Leeland,

If you are the best, you can only know this by actually fighting others.  According to the articles posted by Eric "Top Dog" Knaus, Eric challenged many of the FMA schools.  

guest's quote at the top of this post is the essence of the Gathering, at least to me.  Others like to participate but only latch on to that sentiment rather than drive ot. Even more like to watch, and even more like to talk about it without ever having watched.  The Dog Brothers have sustained a unique event.

>martial arts is for self defense and personal evolution. not for infantile >challenge matches, that have no relevant benefits.
> if you've gone to any dogbrothers gathering you'll understand this

Gathering fighters challenge one another.  Many challenges are avoided or rejected.

Gints
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
3rd Degree Black Belt Instructor

Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
Gentlemen's Fighting Club
leeland
Guest
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2003, 07:29:54 PM »

Quote from: sting


Gathering fighters challenge one another.  Many challenges are avoided or rejected.

Gints


the difference, sting, is that with the dogbrothers everyone is friends in the end.  this is the beauty of the gathering.  it is not for anyone's vanity.
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2003, 07:36:41 PM »

Quote from: Guest
leeland,

 we have a difference of opinion thats all, i don't see how you attacking me helps your arguement at all. people fight for many reasons, not just the ones you listed.


i'm not saying youre idiotic personally.  i don't even know you.  i'm saying the concept is infantile and idiotic.  

Quote
their way maybe different than yours, but it is their way. my only point is everything in life is based on perpective, and people see things differently it doesn't mean they are idiotic.


pedophiles, necrophiles, and murderers have their own perspective too.  but, it doesn't mean we have to extend them any respect.  it's the same here, stupid behaviour shouldn't be affirmed or re-affirmed.  

what would you do if your little kid challenged other little kids at school to fights? you'd sit him down and give him a lecture, correct? you'd tell him it's infantile and idiotic.
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leeland
Guest
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2003, 07:38:32 PM »

OT: that's my post above, by the way.
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2003, 08:08:43 PM »

www.pekiti-tersia.net\index.php?file=actions_1998&lang=en    Look at story in 1998 file titled Battle of Grandmasters training camp near bottom of page find story titled (The Tournament Where Were You When I Was There) and (Stick Combat) (see photo) I wonder if their is video of this tournament available. P.S. Crafty, were are you!  We would love to here your  opinion on this subject.
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leeland
Guest
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2003, 10:22:07 PM »

"The spirit of the fights is that of members of the same tribe helping each other to prepare to defend the land, women, and children of the tribe. Both going too hard and going too soft are counterproductive. In this spirit, what might be too much for one man to handle, could be too little for another. It is a sign of respect for your "opponent" to really go after him?you are saying you respect and believe in his skill and spirit to deal with it, yet at the same time even in the adrenaline of the moment you are looking out for his welfare so as to not damage him and thus weaken the tribe. It is in your best interest that he be as good a warrior as possible when you stand together in battle. "

the above is the essence of the fights in the gatherings.  it is virtuous.

the afore mentioned challenge however is not.

i've made the assumption that the challenge was solely for the purpose of vanity.  but, having now read the article you've posted a link to, i'm now concluding that it is not only vanity, it is also a business strategy. which now makes more sense.

we've already outlined all reasonable scenarios to engage another in mortal combat (self preservation, protection of others, for one's honor, survival, for money because one is hungry, etc.).  

the 1998 challenge however is neither of the above reasons.  it is for one's or a group's vanity.  but, not only that it is for their organization's promotion.

the challenge is to "weed-out" other grandmasters thru combat, not to promote a community of fighters as the dogbrothers have done, but to embarrass others in the hopes of cornering the FMA market.

this is what many have labeled "the dog eat dog mentality" in the west.  this concept is effectively practiced by states and multi-national corporations and infecting the rest of the world.  time and again, we've witnessed mcdonald's, wal-marts, and other corporations gobble up small, family owned, businesses.  this practice is a western corporate construct, its only concern is profit.

the opposite to this is the encouraging of community.  this is what most small businesses and neighborhoods do.  and this is what the dogbrothers gathering try to cultivate. this is virtuous and commendable.

but, the above challenge only illustrates one's vanity, greed, and business savvy (for lack of a better term).  

to put things in perspective...  there are only two men who have gotten rich out of the whole FMA frenzy in the past 30 years.  that's atty. canete in cebu and leo gaje jr. in bacolod.  they both have nice, big, beautiful homes with many helpers.   the one's in the u.s. have all profited also.

in contrast, the rest of the filipino martial artists live in squater areas, have families, drive taxis, are carpenters, bodyguards, farmers, police etc.  they still practice their art, teaching individuals for free, accepting services, and food in their small backyards or living rooms.  this is the tradition passed down from father to son for centuries.  it is only lately that people have started to charge hundreds of dollars for lessons and seminars.

cornering the FMA market is great, but cultivating a community, in my opinion, is more becoming of someone who holds the title GRANDMASTER.

i guess this is where we differ.
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chow chow
Guest
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2003, 10:45:41 PM »

Quote from: cebu eskrima
Here in Cebu, people say that the "Grand Masters" who always challenge others are still not fully developed as Martial Artists.  They challenge others because of their insecurities.

The true Grand Masters are the ones who are very quiet of their own lethality.  They don't have to challenge others to know they are Lethal, because they already know.


i agree.
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sting
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Posts: 289


« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2003, 03:06:13 AM »

>the difference, sting, is that with the dogbrothers everyone is friends in >the end. this is the beauty of the gathering. it is not for anyone's vanity.

Leeland,

If there is no vanity here, ask Crafty why he seems to misplace his shirt so often.  BIG Chuckle.

Intimidation Sting, intimidation cheesy --Crafty
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
3rd Degree Black Belt Instructor

Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
Gentlemen's Fighting Club
Muestra
Guest
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2003, 11:38:05 AM »

... in many secret  challenges, that nobody speaks or knows of, than anything that is publicized.  It is probably happening every day.  Because we don't know the people, since they don't have notoriety or celebrity status, it goes unnoticed.  Look at the whole MMA scene.  That idea got all started from from what was once illegal pit fights.  People that go challenging others in MA schools or studios happen all the time.  Personal rivalries in some schools or between orgs are happening as we speak.  The challenges of physical, mental, emotional, psychological, economic, etc... go on all the time with nary a notice from people who are not the players or who are not involved.  I think the vicarious indulgents that go around digging up something best laid in the ground either have nothing better to do or are into the whole drama.  Me - I rather be training.
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Guest
Guest
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2003, 02:28:33 PM »

Muestra,
save your little drama for your mama.
we are discussing the issue of challenges, their utility, and their morality.
if you don't want to discuss, then don't.
but save your little "i'm a hard trainer" drama for your mama, cuz nobody here cares.
----as for me, i'd rather be humping a cute co-ed.
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2003, 03:12:57 PM »

we now have more than one person posting under guest. to avoid misunderstanding i placed the first three posts marked guest, but the ones which followed were not mine.

                                                                          rob
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burnsson
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Posts: 8


« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2003, 04:00:26 PM »

i don't really understand the point of this discussion anymore.


is the reason to take a challenge that important?

it's more important for me that the fighter meets his opponent with intelligent comparativeness.
i don't mind if he fight's for his ego, his experience, for his family or whatever he can fight for.
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2003, 04:08:10 PM »

Quote from: burnsson
i don't really understand the point of this discussion anymore.


is the reason to take a challenge that important?

it's more important for me that the fighter meets his opponent with intelligent comparativeness.
i don't mind if he fight's for his ego, his experience, for his family or whatever he can fight for.

-----------yes, for young fighters in their teens or twenties this is expected. but not for "grandmasters".  grandmaster is a term reserved for those with higher consciousness and wisdom.  they have already possessed the truth, there should be no need to keep on proving his/her's ability, that's why she/he is a grandmaster. a certain level of maturity is expected.
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dogfighter
Guest
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2003, 08:21:10 PM »

I think what is important is ,what was learned from this. Not just moral issues but also things like, what was the effect on fighters participating in this event and how effective were there  techniques. How can we benefit from these brave fighters who put there lives on the line to test there skills in real unprotected full contact matches. I guess what I am trying to say is, what,s done is done, good or bad. I think now we should focus on what positive lessons we can learn from this. Just as,many of us have learned from ground breaking groups such as the dogbrothers and others, so we to must be able to gain valuble lessons  from a group that takes things to an even higher extreme than we are accustomed to. My philosiphy is to learn from other peoples failures and successes so as we may avoid the negative conceqences of those failures and at the same time ,reap the benefits of there success.  Let it be so!   dogfighter
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leeland
Guest
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2003, 01:00:19 AM »

spoken like a true student of life, dogfighter. i can't argue with wisdom.  whether bad or good, we learned and that's what's important.
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Dog fighter
Guest
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2003, 10:16:03 PM »

It sounds like they are going to do it again. Check out previously posted web site on this thread. Go into forums at bottom left of page and click on KALI GLOBAL CONFERENCE. ALSO: It appears Philip(sled dog)Gelinas is going to partisipate in this years battle in the philippines. (I would sure like to be a fly on the wall at this one.
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the goddess kali
Guest
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2003, 12:23:07 AM »

THE 2004 KALI GLOBAL CONFERENCE AND INSTRUCTORS MASTERY COURSE AND PROMOTION: KALI EXTRAVAGANZA AND FULL CONTACT TOURNAMENT: BATTLE OF KALI 2004

EVENTS:

Hosted by the Pekiti-Tirsia Global Organization and the Pekiti-Tirsia Manila Pitbulls.

Supervising coordinators: Mandala Rommel Tortal and Guro Gabriel Martinez

Dates: August 12- 22 2004


A. Arrival date; all flight schedules from Europe, USA-Canada and other countries must arrive in manila on this date:

August 11,2004 wednesday arrival at manila international airport, manila, Philippines

reception committee from the department of tourism will meet all the delegates inside the arrival area and will be guided to the exit after clearing with the customs and immigration. All delegates must wear delegates id that will be sent to each one who will be registering ahead of time. However, if late registration, id's will be issued at the port of entry.

All delegates will be brought to the tourist buses and will be brought to top class hotel in manila.

An evening welcome dinner will be held at the hotel with the secretary of tourism will welcome all delegates and the secretary of national defense.

The first day will be a tour in metro manila and moving towards to the significant historical places and will be going out of the city moving to camp training facilities.

There will be schedules to all the activities till the end of the conference.

The last two days will be for the conference proper and awarding of the special awards and promotions. Creation of the kali world council (k w c ) nominations to the board of governors, board of mandalas, kali cultural, educational and sports committee. Kali military and law enforcement committee, kali internal affairs committee.kali archives committee.

Final day will highlight the extravanganza competition in full contact tournament, forms and exhibitions

For the details of the global conference an email will be sent to those who register as delegates.

The special events will be held at the most memorable institution where facilities are very accommodating..

Details of the mastery courses and cost will be supplied by the kali global secretariat from manila.

All pre-registration will be recieved by

> Mandala Uli Weidle of the Pekiti-Tirsia Europe for Europe,

> Mandalas Timothy Waid and Leslie Buck, jr. for the USA

> Tuhon Mandala Philip Gelinas and Guro Jun de Leon for Canada.

regional directors for the pekiti-tirsia pitbulls can be coordinated with the New York and eastern state Mandala Ak Bouracca, and Jason,

midwest will be coordinated by Jeff Davidson and Doughlas Adamson,

West coast Michael Franciotti and Nick Papadakis and each tri- state will have the designated coordinators before the year 2004.

This conference will be significant for the interest of the Philippines and for the quality of kali promoted all over the world a licensing of all the qualified certified kali practioners and instructors
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PAT G
Guest
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2003, 05:07:12 PM »

This is what I tell my kid

don't ever start a fight or throw the  first punch , cause if you lose or hurt someone than your an idiot but if you fight because you have no other choice and are defending yourself than win or lose it's ok.

Pat G
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PAT G
Guest
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2003, 05:15:20 PM »

That last post was supposed to go in another area. didn't realize there were two pages.

guess i'm the idiot    cheesy

Pat G
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vampiro2001
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Posts: 1


« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2003, 08:57:00 AM »

my kali group has come under the umbrella of PTK...i dont want to brag but we've produced some extremely skilled traditional Kali practicioners...i have great respect for Leo Gaje...with regards to the blade IMO there is none better...we've been exposed through seminars etc to PTK but as i started to investigate more PTK on the web..it made me worry, because it seemed like a huge promotional machine...PTK Pitbulls in the East to West and all points in between will crush all non-tradition FMA. i understand Leo Gaje feels FMA is being basterdized and there are some many fakes out there calling themselves Grand Masters/Tuhons..i feel this tournament should be for them..not for everyone.

i'm a intermediate student..i know myself and others will be offered to fight as Pitbulls...i would love to do the extensive training improve and test my courage...but at the end of the day if i cripple (or get cripple) or even kill somebody in this No Holds Barred/Ambulance match (cue Vince and the WWF)...it would be for what? not my war, i'm not even filipino...

i think i'd rather test my skills at one of your Gatherings. wink
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Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
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Posts: 29552


« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2003, 10:18:39 AM »

Well, there's one in 9 days , , , , Cheesy
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choy
Guest
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2003, 01:13:17 PM »

Quote from: leeland
"The spirit of the fights is that of members of the same tribe helping each other to prepare to defend the land, women, and children of the tribe. Both going too hard and going too soft are counterproductive. In this spirit, what might be too much for one man to handle, could be too little for another. It is a sign of respect for your "opponent" to really go after him?you are saying you respect and believe in his skill and spirit to deal with it, yet at the same time even in the adrenaline of the moment you are looking out for his welfare so as to not damage him and thus weaken the tribe. It is in your best interest that he be as good a warrior as possible when you stand together in battle. "

the above is the essence of the fights in the gatherings.  it is virtuous.

the afore mentioned challenge however is not.

i've made the assumption that the challenge was solely for the purpose of vanity.  but, having now read the article you've posted a link to, i'm now concluding that it is not only vanity, it is also a business strategy. which now makes more sense.

we've already outlined all reasonable scenarios to engage another in mortal combat (self preservation, protection of others, for one's honor, survival, for money because one is hungry, etc.).  

the 1998 challenge [and the 2004 Kali Conference in Manila] however is neither of the above reasons.  it is for one's or a group's vanity.  but, not only that it is for their organization's promotion.

the challenge is to "weed-out" other grandmasters thru combat, not to promote a community of fighters as the dogbrothers have done, but to embarrass others in the hopes of cornering the FMA market.

this is what many have labeled "the dog eat dog mentality" in the west.  this concept is effectively practiced by states and multi-national corporations and infecting the rest of the world.  time and again, we've witnessed mcdonald's, wal-marts, and other corporations gobble up small, family owned, businesses.  this practice is a western corporate construct, its only concern is profit.

the opposite to this is the encouraging of community.  this is what most small businesses and neighborhoods do.  and this is what the dogbrothers gathering try to cultivate. this is virtuous and commendable.

but, the above challenge only illustrates one's vanity, greed, and business savvy (for lack of a better term).  

to put things in perspective...  there are only two men who have gotten rich out of the whole FMA frenzy in the past 30 years.  that's atty. canete in cebu and leo gaje jr. in bacolod.  they both have nice, big, beautiful homes with many helpers.   the one's in the u.s. have all profited also.

in contrast, the rest of the filipino martial artists live in squater areas, have families, drive taxis, are carpenters, bodyguards, farmers, police etc.  they still practice their art, teaching individuals for free, accepting services, and food in their small backyards or living rooms.  this is the tradition passed down from father to son for centuries.  it is only lately that people have started to charge hundreds of dollars for lessons and seminars.

cornering the FMA market is great, but cultivating a community, in my opinion, is more becoming of someone who holds the title GRANDMASTER.

i guess this is where we differ.


my thoughts exactly!!!  makes you wonder what the title GRANDMASTER stands for? is it just one's prowess in fighting (because if it is there's a bunch of blood thirsty knuckleheads in my neighborhood, who'll be fitting for this title), OR is this title more sacred than just going around challenging people and promising to send people to hospitals? i'd like to think a GRANDMASTER would have a bit more maturity and wisdom.
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guest
Guest
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2003, 11:03:43 PM »

Quote
"the dog eat dog mentality
"
Quote



was it not the same grandmaster who came up with the Pekiti "Dog Eaters" whcih eventually was changed to the "Pekiti Pitbulls"
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Cypher
Guest
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2003, 08:52:11 PM »

Many of old traditionalist believe stick grappling waters down the FMA and a tournament without head gear would be a way to prove that shooting/grappling has no place in Filipino Martial Arts. cry
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Crafty_Dog
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Posts: 29552


« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2003, 10:36:20 PM »

Woof Cypher:

You are right, many do feel as you say-- many, but not all.

A story:  Grandmaster Atillo of Balintawak tells the story of his famous match with Grandmaster Cacoy Canete of Doce Pares.   He will show the letter signed by both of them agreeing to the rules-- one of which was "No Grappling".  

If grappling does not/can not happen in the absence of headgear, why was this rule necessary?  Why was it insisted upon by GM Atillo?  Could it be that GM CC, whose system "Eskrido" is a blend of ESKRIma and JuDO?

Then, in telling the story he will show you the picture from the paper the next day showing CC holding him in a headlock and say "You see! He cheated!"

If the particular traditionalists you reference are right, how can this be?

I'm not going to use terms like Arnis, Eskrima, Kali, Silat, or Kali-silat  evil  but what of all the various FMA systems with grappling, both in the presence of weapons and not?

If grappling does not happen in the presence of weapons, what about the clinch material in the MILITARY system of old Thailand?  Or in Burma's Bando?  What about the various Silats? -- are none of these from the Philippines, or is the argument that the FMA lack what these systems have?  evil

Speaking from my own experience against many opponents I can pretty consistently enter with my head untouched-- and so can many of the people I have taught.  This can be seen in DBMA #4 Attacking Blocks and more in the to-be-released "Stickgrappling-Clinch"

Yes, this skill was developed in part by surviving mistakes thanks to headgear.  And yes, many of the people who fight at our Gatherings exploit headgear to create grappling-- often because they lack adequate stick skills.  And yes, shooting low is pretty unsound as a general rule in a stick fight.

But still the assertion based upon experience remains:  Grappling can be consistently created in a way that does not rely upon protective gear.  

In DMBA our clinch material is a blend principally of Inosanto Blend (FMA) Krabi Krabong (Thai) Bando (Burma) Silat (various, including Philippines) BJJ (Brazil) and wrestling (America).

On the ground it is a blend of Inosanto, Bando, and BJJ.

Just because emotions behind the printed word can readily be misunderstood, please allow to plainly state that all the forgoing is said in cheery, friendly spirit.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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Cypher
Guest
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2003, 11:25:03 PM »

I know some Grand Masters believe FMA is being "prostituted" and that the purity of the art is being erased by the integration of other arts and techniques.  The traditional practicioners will always feel threatened in this way and try to prove the old techniques are superior to the new ie. no head gear tournaments.

Instead of viewing it as an attack on FMA or the culture, i wish it could be viewed for what it is. Evolution. The techniques have evolved with other techniques to create something entire different for today. Karate never evolved and look where it stands in MMA today. cry
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Anonymous
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« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2003, 09:59:24 AM »

There's evidence of tribes using closing and grappling techniques in battles.

The headaxe was used close quarter and the warrior would use holds with one hand as they chopped and hooked with the axe. Note what they wear about their heads and if it deters any common grappling holds. Note the sharpened teeth in others. The small tearing weapons that can only be used effectively up close in this situation. Note the terrain which is muddy, full of roots or unlevel.

Note even many of the stick techniques that are entries for grappling.

Grappling has been a part of the FMAs - however, probably not at the level as some systems that focus on that specific range all the time. Most old FMAs would want to have finishing techniques (or small weapons) that can get them back on their feet asap.

--Rafael--
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guest
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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2003, 11:06:11 PM »

There is one system of FMA that claims it's adept proponents, as a rule and tradition, cannot be thrown.  If one is, one does not belong to that school anymore and is ousted.  Pretty harsh and lofty expectation.  For me, I prefer to have a back up if and when it all goes south... or to the ground.  Survival is a higher priority to me than pride or denial.
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jake
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« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2003, 12:46:43 PM »

hey all,

just wanted to add that dumog or layug, Pilipino for wrestling/grappling/ground fighting, have always been part of FMA.  some of course suck at it, that's why they insist on NO-GRAPPLING rules of silliness.  

but, it has always been connected to the blades, the sticks, the knives, fist, elbow, open palm, knee, foot, etc.  those Masters going around saying, "those who aren't adept with their sticks, resort to grappling", they say this because they know they are not COMPLETE fighters.  so, they dish out silly philosophies like this.

so, grappling doesn't bastaradize FMA, because it was already part of it.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2003, 03:45:59 PM »

Quote
What about the various Silats? -- are none of these from the Philippines?


Mr. Crafty. Please enlighten us on Filipino Silat. Which styles, which exact regions, which exact lineage, which exact teachers?

Thank you wink
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2003, 04:54:51 PM »

Woof Mr. Guest:

With regard to Silat my principal source is Guro Inosanto.  As you may or may not know, Guro I. is well trained in several Silat systems.  Some are Indonesian, some Malaysian and some Filipino (e.g. the LaCoste system includes Silat).  I also was a member of Pendekar Paul de Thouars Bukti Negara Pentjak Silat class (an Indonesian silat) in the late 1980s at the Inosanto Academy on Glencoe Avenue.

My understanding of Guro I's teaching in this regard  huh is that due to the island archipelago geography of the region national boundaries tend to exist more on the map than in reality and that the frontiers of style are similarly murky-- especially by the time that they get to the US.

What I am getting around to saying is that I am the wrong man to ask for delineating lineage despite my teacher's best and ongoing efforts.  What I know is that I am Inosanto Blend.  Whether the particular ideas and techniques I draw upon are specifically Filipino or Indonesian or Malaysian I cannot say with any degree of confidence in my accuracy, unless it is the Indonesian system of Bukti Negara because that class did not blend with other systems.

With those timid caveats in place  huh  I would say that principally my silat is Inosanto Blend (which certainly includes LaCoste, which certainly is Filipino) with a goodly dose of Bukti Negara subsequently modified by Serak.  Occasionally bits of Mande Muda (Indonesian) make their appearance too.

I hope this helps even though I am not sure why you would ask-- unless it is for the pleasure of watching me squirm trying to chart these dangerous waters  wink

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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mathew john
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« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2003, 11:29:07 AM »

Quote from: vampiro2001


i'm a intermediate student..i know myself and others will be offered to fight as Pitbulls...i would love to do the extensive training improve and test my courage...but at the end of the day if i cripple (or get cripple) or even kill somebody in this No Holds Barred/Ambulance match (cue Vince and the WWF)...it would be for what? not my war, i'm not even filipino...



http://www.snopes2.com/quotes/goering.htm

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

--Hermann Goering (Nuremberg, 1946)


Gilbert, G.M. Nuremberg Diary. New York: Farrar, Straus and Company, 1947 (pp. 278-279)
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Anonymous
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« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2003, 01:29:17 AM »

Quote
Subject: my apologies
Author: jacob smith
Date: 20/12/2003 19:50
  i feel that i might have offended you with my questions, sir. i am not here to argue, but merely to share my opinions and to question. if you have read all of my posts, you'll know that i'm doing my preliminary research for a book now in progress. eventually, i hope to speak with you in person as civilized individuals, not fight you.

you've already offered us your version of the Canete challenge. received with appreciation.

the reason i'm asking about Kali is because i cannot write fully about this term, if i just fall back on simple conjectures and presumptions. students of FMA now are more sophisticated than in the 1970s. they have already read of the 10 datus, the code of kalintaw, sri visaya, the school of bothoan, they know from current research that there is no Kali found here.

they have also read about Kamut Lihok is the source of Kali story, or that Kali comes from Kalis which is the mispelling of the Keris used by Muslim Filipinos. they also have read of Kali is the Hindu Goddess of India, hence it is the Filipino Fighting art. which makes no sense since Hinduism never really established a foot hold in the islands.

the Kali philosophy used by those who fought the Spaniards, the Americans, and the Japanese. if this is true why didn't Jose Rizal, Antonio Luna, and other filipino revolutionary fighters write of this philosophy and title? i work with many filipinos who fought in WWII, yet when i ask them about Kali, they ask me what this word is.

i'm sure you have never heard of this word Kali as the filipino fighting arts, either, before you came to the US in 1972. this is why you yourself used Eskrima and Arnis. during the 1960s and 1970s only two main groups used the word Kali in California, and that's the Inosanto and Villabrille schools.

so, if we are to write fully about this word, then we have to come to terms with it. if we discuss this word, and people get offended then this is counter productive and people will never know where kali originated.

yes, there is a word kali in Hiligaynon meaning to dig. and there is a town in Panay named kalibo. but there is also a soda in the Philippines named Cali and there is a Bisaya word Kalibang, and in Arabic there is a word for those who ruled after Muhammed and they are called Kalifat. and California begins with Kali. there is a tagalog verb, Kalisan, meaning to scrape off.

but, we cannot offer these mere syllabary connections as historical proof of Kali. much research has already resumed to shed light about Philippine history, this is why i'm staying in touch with the Kasaysayan Dept and Anthroplogy Dept at the University of the Philippines, in Diliman.

i'm asking you how you came to use the word Kali in New York, so we may be able to fully write about this title with complete fairness. do not be offended of all my questions, they are meant to shed light, not darken our martial arts.

---------------

"You come also to Panay Island and start telling the Media and TV audience that the TEN Datus history is a Hoax and the SRI VIJAYA EMPIRE AND THE MADJAPHAJIT excludes the Philippines and that there is no KALI word that exists."

i've shared books in support of these new findings to enlighten you, not to offend you.


"You also come to Negros and question about the Kalikalihan festival in SALVADOR Benidicto town or more to your curiousity you proceed to Kalibo Aklan and check personally if there is really Kalibo."

the municipality of don salvador benedicto between the municipality of san carlos and calatrava is a new municipality established in the 1980s, during the reign of Marcos. when they wanted to create a festival in the 1980s they chose Kali having read Inosanto's book about it. i've done research here as well and it returns me to the US.

"If you have not visited these Islands it is about time that you come and let us know so we can accompany you and even Uli Weidle of the Pekiti-Tirsia will be willing to bring you to these places. No amount of discussion in any forum will convince people of that story."

I have visited the Philippines, there are places named Kalinga Apayo, Kalinog, and Kalisay, but they do not connect to Kali as the filipino fighting arts. as soon as i can obtain funding for the final research process, i will indeed contact you and mr. weidle. thank you for the offer.

------------------------
again...

i'm asking you when and how you came to use the word Kali in New York, so we may be able to fully write about this title with complete fairness. do not be offended of all my questions, they are meant to shed light, not darken our martial arts. thank you again. and much apologies if you were offended (as an American, i tend to be direct and blunt with my questions).
 
 
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Sun Tzu
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« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2003, 12:07:26 PM »

One Hundred Victories in One Hundred Battles
is Not the Most Skillful.

Subduing the Other?s Military Without Battle
is the Most Skillful.
[/b]

The Art of War, by Sun Tzu
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krys
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Posts: 3


« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2004, 08:16:18 PM »

Quote
[With regard to Silat my principal source is Guro Inosanto. As you may or may not know, Guro I. is well trained in several Silat systems. Some are Indonesian, some Malaysian and some Filipino (e.g. the LaCoste system includes Silat).


Could you please tell me more on the Llacoste-Silat connection?
I was introduced to theLlacoste system when I started escrima and to my eyes it  looks very different from traditional silat....
Thanks,
Krys.
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2004, 07:36:55 AM »

Quote
The true Grand Masters are the ones who are very quiet of their own lethality. They don't have to challenge others to know they are Lethal, because they already know.


Very true....actually the muslim filipino masters are usually very quiet and don't even want peoples to know that they  practice martial arts... they won't talk about what they had to do until you are one of their pupils or close friend.... My Indonesian friend told me the same, many silat experts there are also hiding and true non commercial silat is not so easy to find there....
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2005, 07:51:15 PM »

Tom intervenes, bans controversial arnis duel by Gabby Malagar
The Freeman, Cebu
January 12, 2005

Go on with the duel or face arrest.

This was the stern warning by Cebu City Mayor Tomas R. Osmena to eskrima Grandmaster Ciriaco "Noy Cacoy" Canete and his challenger Bonifacio "Loloy" Uy not to pursue their eskrima duel because it is "illegal" having no permit issued for that purpose.

Therefore, the highly-anticipated eskrima "Duel of the year" between Noy Cacoy against his former student-turned detractor Bonifacio "Loloy" Uy set yesterday morning at the Cebu City Sports Center did not materialize.

Instead, Osmena sent Cebu City police chief Melvin Gayotin and some Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) members to effect the arrest should both eskrimadors defy his orders.

Just before they could set up their duel, the police intervened and sent Canete and Uy home including Cacoy's family who went to the venue in full force and Atty. Dionisio "Diony" Canete, Cacoy's nephew turned critic.

The would-be protagonists and their seconds, as well as the people who were there to witness the duel, acceded to the mayor's order.

"They don't have to fight among themselves just to prove who is the best of them. I think the rest of us should encourage them that they both excelled in that particular sports discipline and that we hold them with high esteem for the pride they brought to the Cebuanos," said Osmena.

"Thus, the City will be giving them due recognition and special awards for their invaluable contribution to the field of sports during our Charter Day celebration next month," added Osmena.

It was the second time that the eskrima duel involving Cacoy did not push through.

In 1986 during the Martial Law anniversary, the duel between Cacoy and Esing Atillo was scrapped because Atillo was not allowed to fight for having a high blood pressure.

That particular fight was promoted by then regional police office chief Gen. Alfredo Olano.

During the Doce Pares induction of officers last January 8, Cacoy showed the form, which he said could beat Uy in just 10 seconds.
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