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Author Topic: Survey on bare knuckle punching  (Read 2887 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: October 17, 2008, 03:00:08 PM »

An internet friend is taking a survey:

http://www.questionpro.com/akira/TakeSurvey?id=985984
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Kaju Dog
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 10:30:22 PM »

Done = Nice quick survey with no strings attached.  Been a while since I have had the pleasure to say that.

Is there a discussion comming soon, related to the survey? 

 rolleyes
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2008, 12:39:05 AM »

Woof C-Kaju:

Well, I will be glad to share here the results when they come out, but we certainly do not have to wait for that to have our own discussion here.

TAC,
CD
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sting
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2008, 07:25:46 PM »

Interesting survey.  I'm surprised that the elbow wasn't included as a breaking target.  I broke my first bone (knuckle) on an elbow during an early fist fight in the seventh grade.  A lot of martial arts spar with no hand protection, and I think a major source of hand and foot injuries is the tip of your opponent's elbow.
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
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Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
Gentlemen's Fighting Club
Ronin
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 07:53:53 AM »

In terms of knuckle damage, I have only hurt myself a couple of times, but in terms of fingers, I have sprained and bruised and dislocated a few during kyokushin bare-knuckle fights and sparring, especially in the beginning with uppercuts and hooks running into elbow tips...
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Matt Tucker
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 06:39:59 PM »

From 'Biological Warfare' Thread March 7th 2006

Quote

Hi ALL,

This may be of interest, Dont let it happen top you...................
It takes a while but eventually gets to my point.

Has anyone heard of similar stories.


5 Years ago I stopped a intervened in stopping a alcohol/drug fueled thug from kicking his way through my neighbours front door and attacking his teenage daughters. After persuation failed the 'Hoody' kicked off and went for me with quite some intent.

I stopped him with a straight left punch which apparently fractured his cheekbone, (he was running at me).

He was arrested and all was well.

I noticed a small puncture wound on the little mcp knuckle of my hand. This was the size of a match head. This must have been from making contact with his incisor tooth. Knowing that the human mouth can be quite a haven for bacteria i washed the hand with hot water but really thought nothing of it.

However the next morning, 24 hours later,  i woke up, fell over, vomited violently, my hand had swollen up considerably in the 8 hours I had been to sleep. On admission to hospital I underwent surgery to ascertain what was up.

Blood cultures were taken to find out which of the 50 or so types of bacteria was causing the infection. The infection had necrotised into a 'Flesh eating disease', causing a similar effect to some snake venoms eating the tissue and flesh from the back of my hand. I was told that my hand may have to be amputated, if the infection got past elbow then further amputation, shoulder?...............

Several operations later to remove dead tissue from the back of my hand and to clean the infection, the strain was succesfully identified as Streptoccus A and anti-biotics kicked in.

Now with my left hand swollen up to 5 times its size and missing all the tissue on the back left the surgeons with a problem. A skin graft would stick to all the exposed tendons and bones, but luckily medical cover provided expert hand surgeon who took flap from my hip and attached it with microsurgery to join capillerys and arteries to maintain blood flow.

Due to the infection damaging my little finger I can currently not form a full fist, but with dilligent wall bag training developed quite an explosive palm strike, chops, rising palm and slaps.

Many reconstructive and further surgeries (18 so far) and physio over the last 5 years has proved difficult, but martial arts have helped a great deal in my recovery. I managed to continue my Wing Chun and took up learning stick fighting which has helped increse my grip strength.

Now to the main point of what I have learned from this experience.

1. If we focus on striking towards the eyes, not to take an opponents sight, but to obscure vision (even a failed strike towards the eyes will cause the untrained to flinch or the trained to react in some way)
Also striking towards the eyes really limits the opponents reaction as there is simply less to see.

2. Good targets are found around the eyes are the obvious as well as the nose, cheekbone, temples and the orbit of the eye.

3. Open hand strikes are much less susceptable to damageed and cut knuckles. The muscles and strong bones in the heel of the palm and edge of the
hand provide good natural weapons that can become fantastic with some regular hand conditioning. 

Unquote
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Tony Torre
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2008, 08:43:47 AM »

Matt,

A friend of mine had a similar situation after being bitten in the hand during a scuffle with a mugger. 

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com
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G M
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2008, 09:46:17 AM »

Modern WarriorŽ Articles
________________________________________
To Punch or Not to Punch, That is the Question!
by George Demetriou

It´s not uncommon. Police officer attempts to arrest suspect, suspect violently resists, officer delivers punch to suspect´s head. Officer injures hand. Many officers have broken their hands, and most will say injuries are a reality of the job. Maybe, but what if there was an alternative to punching that was safer and more effective?
Actually there is. The palm strike. It´s the heel of the palm you make contact with, but it´s referred to as a palm strike. To execute a palm strike, its important to have the right hand position. The hand is pulled back as far as possible, locking the wrist and the fingers should be allowed to curl slightly forward. The palm and finger tips should face the target. Contact is made with the very bottom of the palm just before the wrist.

Officer Safety - Palm Strike vs. Fisted Strikes

When knuckles meet skull during a confrontation, the skull will always win. I don´t think anyone will argue that former heavyweight Champ Mike Tyson is an accomplished puncher. When Mr. Tyson punched former Heavyweight contender Mitch Green on the head, Tyson´s hand broke. Neither man wore gloves for the bout. The fight took place on a Harlem street corner. You can see why boxers pay someone good money to tape their hands.
My question to those in law enforcement is: If men who get paid lots of money to punch people, who train constantly to develop their punches, break their hands in street fights what makes you think it won´t happen to you?
Strong hand injuries are the number one arrest-related injury in police work. This will continue as long as defensive tactics are strongly influenced by martial arts (this includes boxing) that emphasize fisted strikes.
"The most common injury occurs when you strike with the last two knuckles. The 5th metacarpal breaks (between the knuckles of the middle finger and pinkie), commonly referred to as a boxer´s fracture," states James Prattas, MD of Metropolitan Hospital in NYC. Dr. Prattas, also a martial artist stated, "I can´t think of any reason to strike with a fist over using a palm strike."
"A fracture will take 6-8 weeks to heal, while a sprain (tear in ligament) could take up to 6 months to heal. Rehabilitation could take 3-4 months, according to Faye Grant, a Registered Occupational Therapist, from the Hand Therapy Center, in Floral Park, NY.
Police officers who seriously injured their hands during a violent confrontation were asked if they thought they could get a solid grip on their firearms after the injury. The answer was sometimes, "I don´t know," but most often just, "No."
"Grip strength comes from the ulnar side (pinky side) of the hand. A boxer´s fracture would significantly affect your grip. Try to hold anything with a handle without using your fourth finger," says Stuart Kandel, Orthopedic Surgeon from Bay Shore, NY. "It would be much easier to disarm an officer who received this fracture."
The Medical Doctors, Physical Therapists and Occupational Therapists the author interviewed all agreed that with the palm strike done correctly the chances of injuring the hand are slim. "The position of Maximum Boney stability in the hand is the close-pack position which is full extension of the hand. Full extension of the hand is the palm strike position," according to Bill Partridge, Physical Therapist of Nassau/Suffolk Physical Therapy in Syosset, NY.
Taking shooting and/or firearm retention into consideration, the palm strike seems to be the logical choice of strikes.
Another serious health related problem we have to consider is cutting the knuckles on the perpetrator´s teeth. Punches are usually directed to the head area including the face. The mouth is something you definitely want to avoid. However the teeth may be struck inadvertently. "Everyone you encounter violently has AIDS, until proven otherwise, humans have the most infectious mouths, once you break skin you are introducing all those germs to your body", says Dr. Prattas. "The heel of the palm making impact with the mouth distributes contact area equally making it difficult to break skin if the teeth are struck. With a punch, one knuckle may hit the teeth, breaking skin easily." "The skin on the Dorsal side (top of the hand) is easily cut because it is very thin. The opposite is true of the skin on the palm," says O.T.R. Faye Grant.
According to Dr. Kandel, "When you open your hand from a fist tendons pull back. If the knuckles are cut when a full taut fist strikes teeth the act of opening the hand pulls bacteria in. Serious infection can set in 24-48 hours later".
Germs do not fester as easily in the fleshy palm of the hand as they do in the knuckles. There have been cases where cuts caused by human teeth on knuckles resulted in the hand being surgically removed to stop the spread of Gangrene.

Effectiveness of Palm Strikes

The palm strike is safe for the officer to use, but it´s also quite effective. A palm strike done on a slightly upward angle has a tremendous amount of leverage. One need only to strike a heavy bag suspended from a stand or ceiling to see this. Compare the reactions of the bag when you punch or palm strike. There´s a more violent jump in the bag when you palm strike.
Punches have a primary effect on the target struck. A punch to the head will usually affect the area the knuckles made contact with. Palm strikes have a secondary effect. A palm strike to the head won´t cause much damage to the contact point, but will have an effect on the neck and usually jars the body. A palm strike done under the chin will often produce a one shot knock-out due to the whip lash effect. A palm strike anywhere to the head area will almost always affect balance, because the strike will take the assailant´s ears out of line with his hips. This opens up other parts of the body for combinations or a takedown. The palm strike can be used effectively to the head, body, hip socket and knees. Punches are best used against muscular parts of the body to avoid injury to the puncher. Palm strikes are good to grab off of and make it easier to strike someone with an object in your hand. You never know when you´ll get caught having to strike while you are holding your radio and firearm.
Another nice bonus of palm strikes is they don´t seem as violent as clenching your fist and striking someone. Having your hands open will make the strike to appear a push to the untrained eye. Palm strikes will go over better than punches on the evening news.
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G M
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2008, 09:49:33 AM »

The Fist Reflex

An involuntary discharge experiment conducted by International Defensive Tactics and Research Foundation (I.D.T.) between December 1991 and September 1993 showed that being trained to use your fists may lead to having an involuntary discharge.
Phil Messina, President of Modern WarriorŽ Defensive Tactics Institute states, "The fist reflex is a response which occurs when an individual psychologically associates making a fist with high stress confrontational situations".
All experiment participants were police officers, male and female with an average time in service of three and one half years. No Modern WarriorŽ students were permitted to participate. One group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with their fists, the second group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with open hands and the third group just did the final stress simulation. The final simulation consisted of having an officer enter a smoke filled room, where the smoke has an odor and taste, strobe lights are on, the terrain is obstructed and wind is created by the use of high speed fans. All senses are overloaded. Suddenly gunshots go off (on tape) and a figure comes running at the officer waving hands and screaming. The figure runs into the officer unless the officer moves away. This scenarios purpose is to stress out the officer enough to cause an involuntary discharge of the officer´s firearm.
Each group had 50 participants. From the fist group there were 18 involuntary discharges. Nine of those officers had their finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the non-fist group there were 3 involuntary discharges, with 2 finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the control group 1 finger off trigger prior to discharge.
"Post Experiment interviews strongly indicated that a high percentage of participants who had involuntary discharges had studied martial arts emphasizing fisted strikes. Boxers were foremost in this category," said Messina.
Based partially on these experiments Modern WarriorŽ DT Institute has taken all fisted strikes out of their Police Defensive Tactics curriculum and replaced them with palm strikes and other open handed alternatives when counter striking becomes necessary.

Conclusion

Using fisted strikes as the primary hand technique of police defensive tactics training is a perfect example of how sport martial arts influence police training. Many DT Instructors have a boxing or karate background, they teach what they like to do. Defensive tactics has to be based on what law enforcement officers will encounter in the field, not what an instructor encountered in the ring. The primary strike should make sense for police work. The primary hand technique for law enforcement should be the palm strike. - GD
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LtMedTB
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 08:58:16 AM »

Interesting survey.  I'm surprised that the elbow wasn't included as a breaking target.  I broke my first bone (knuckle) on an elbow during an early fist fight in the seventh grade.  A lot of martial arts spar with no hand protection, and I think a major source of hand and foot injuries is the tip of your opponent's elbow.

Agreed! The worst hand injury I ever had was sustained during sparring. It was an uppercut straight into an elbow.

Tom
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Fame is man given. Be thankful.
Conceit is self given. Be careful."
Ronin
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 10:19:30 AM »

Interesting survey.  I'm surprised that the elbow wasn't included as a breaking target.  I broke my first bone (knuckle) on an elbow during an early fist fight in the seventh grade.  A lot of martial arts spar with no hand protection, and I think a major source of hand and foot injuries is the tip of your opponent's elbow.

Agreed! The worst hand injury I ever had was sustained during sparring. It was an uppercut straight into an elbow.

Tom

I come from kyokushin so I feel your pain.
I have learned that, in terms of body shots, one hooks to the ribs and side and to use the uppercut, it's "best" to use it on the diagonal, right uppercut for the liver shot for example, this tends to minimize the interference of those pesky elbow tips.
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foxmarten
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2008, 02:29:52 PM »


This may be of interest, Dont let it happen top you...................
It takes a while but eventually gets to my point.

Has anyone heard of similar stories.

I noticed a small puncture wound on the little mcp knuckle of my hand. This was the size of a match head. This must have been from making contact with his incisor tooth. Knowing that the human mouth can be quite a haven for bacteria i washed the hand with hot water but really thought nothing of it.

However the next morning, 24 hours later,  i woke up, fell over, vomited violently, my hand had swollen up considerably in the 8 hours I had been to sleep. On admission to hospital I underwent surgery to ascertain what was up.

The anatomy of the hand has always put it at risk for serious jnfections, especially after puncture wounds...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1346146&pageindex=1#page
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