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Author Topic: Question from a friend in Iraq  (Read 2464 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: December 10, 2008, 12:36:16 AM »

Woof All:

A friend who is in Iraq training the Baghdad police in modern police skills emails me the following question:

"Are there/is there a pressure point that when pressed would prevent/significantly limit a person from effectively pressing a button (like on a suicide vest switch)?"

Comments/suggestions?

TAC!
CD
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G M
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2008, 03:17:37 PM »

A gunshot wound to the brain stem.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2008, 06:50:47 PM »

My sentiments exactly. grin

 I suspect what my friend has in mine though is a situation wherein the GG has to jump on the BG HTH.
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G M
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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2008, 06:56:40 PM »

H2H, pin the haji to the ground and break the neck, severing the spinal cord. Theoretically, you can jam a knife blade into the base of the skull to sever the brain stem, but in the position where I had the haji face down, I'd go for the neck break myself.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 08:03:58 PM »

From behind a full nelson to keep the hands from the bomb trigger?

From in front , , , double underhooks?

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G M
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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 09:01:32 PM »

There are key factors to keep in mind when developing methods/techniques to address this threat:

1. This is a deadly force scenario. Using distance and cover to prone out suspected homicide bombers at riflepoint is the best practice. Non-compliance should be met with precision marksmanship to destroy the brain stem. The greater the distance and better the cover, the better the odds for the police to avoid injury or death should the IED detonate deliberately or accidentally. Enaging the HB-IED carrier outside rather than inside a structure and in an isolated area is the best, if possible.

2. I do not know the most commonly used explosives for human-borne IEDs in Iraq, but in Israel and other locations, Tri-Acetone-Tri-Peroxide and other peroxide based explosives are commonly used. This greatly increases the threat to law enforcement and innocents in the scenario given the dangerous instability inherent in TATP and it's sensitivity to kinetic energy.

3. Immobilizing the arms of the HB-IED carrier does not mean that the threat from the IED is negated. Aside from the threat of the IED detonating in the struggle, it is a common practice for the HB-IED to be remotely detonated by a second, distant observer. If the scenario is so desperate that a single officer is forced to engage a HB-IED H2H, then taking the bomber to the ground immediately while trying to negate the bomber's ability to detonate the IED is best as if the bomber is on the ground with the officer covering him when the IED detonates, this reduces the lethality of the blast and shrapnel to innocents in the area.

4. Usually the IED detonator is connected to the main charge in the bomb vest by wires that run down the arm to where the detonator is concealed in the hand of the HB-IED carrier. Trying to resolve this H2H is the last, worst option taken knowing that you will most likely die along with the bomber. So take this option keeping that in mind.
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 09:20:39 PM »

Quote
"Using distance and cover to prone out suspected homicide bombers at riflepoint is the best practice."
D*mn skippy...

All of GM's points are spot on.

99.9% of all IED bearing individuals will detonate their package upon detection.

If close enough to touch the individual, you are close enough to put one between their eyes. Pressure points go out the window in deadly force scenarios. From an executive protection standpoint: remove the threat/evacuate the principal.
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G M
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 09:51:33 PM »

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/the-hands-of-god.htm

"The closer a counterfeit comes to the genuine article, the more obvious the deceit. As the murderer dressed in women’s clothes walked purposefully toward his target, there was a village man ahead. But under the guise of a simple villager was a true Martyr, and he, too, had his target in sight. The Martyr had seen through the disguise, but he had no gun. No bomb. No rocket. No stone. No time.

The Martyr walked up to the murderer and lunged into a bear hug, on the spot where we were now standing.



The blast ripped the Martyr to pieces which fell along with pieces of the enemy. Ball-bearings shot through the alley and wounded two children, but the people in the mosque were saved. The man lay in pieces on the ground, his own children having seen how his last embrace saved the people of the village."
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 11:02:02 PM »

Here's what my friend is thinking off:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=315bca1c04
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c - Shadow Dog
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 08:21:29 AM »

no experience in this department,

But my initial thought process would lead me to a taser.

wouldnt a taser stop the process that would allow him/her from pushing the button?

Problems

1. would the taser its self set off the bomb?

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SB_Mig
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 10:54:28 AM »

Quote
1. would the taser its self set off the bomb?

Depends on the type of explosives, initiating system, and method of activation. Most conventional explosives are "cap sensitive" meaning they need some type of blasting cap/detonating cord to begin explosive train.
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G M
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 12:54:08 PM »

no experience in this department,

But my initial thought process would lead me to a taser.

wouldnt a taser stop the process that would allow him/her from pushing the button?

**Probably not.**

Problems

1. would the taser its self set off the bomb?

**Maybe. As SB said, it depends on the device and explosives used. Tasers aren't "phasers, set on stun".**



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Grunttwice
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 05:02:16 PM »

http://northshorejournal.org/specialist-joe-gibson

Probably doesn't help much as far as your friends question, but I saw this article in Tip of the Spear a couple months ago and thought it was interesting and related enough to the topic that it would fit well in the thread.
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Tom Stillman
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 10:09:57 PM »

Maybe, bomb sniffing dogs could be utilized to detect explosives while soldiers observe dogs reaction from a safe vantage point area.
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
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