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Author Topic: To serve & defend our Constitution; we the unorganized militia; citizenship  (Read 4745 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: December 13, 2008, 01:05:05 AM »

Woof All:

Inmy humble opinion there is an American Creed-- that of our Founding Fathers as expressed in the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, and our Constitution.

One are of particular interest to us (use the search funcion for the "Poltics & Religion" forum) is that which has to do with the   Second Amendment and Section 311 Title 10 (see the John Lott article "The Unorganized Militia" on the Flight 93 Memorial page).  Its why we have a thread titled "The Unorganized Militia" on the P&R forum!

Q:  So why have a thread of the same name here?  

A:  This one is to discuss where the rubber meets the road.

We kick things off with a piece by Gabe Suarez:
===================================
There has been a great deal of discussion about what to carry for an event like Mumbai. Gents, let's think about this. If you happen to be caught up in this at its conclusion, facing a dozen riflemen working together as a unit, and you with your Kel-Tec, what do you think your realistic chances of success are? Being real is not being defeatist, but come on.

Now, at the outset of the event, where there may be only one or two adversaries, it gets a little better in terms of odds. But only a little. You have one advantage and that is the advantage of surprise and one target. They, on the other hand have many avenues of danger to cover, only one which is yours. This will be a rapidly moving fluid situation.

One man was saying that using a cell phone to photograph the bad guys would be good. Pictures of the bad guys on your cell phone? Come on....seriously? If you have the ability to take their picture, you also have the ability to take their life, or GTFOT (get the f*** out of there) so get out of the evidence collecting mindset.

Number two, some guys were discussing carrying a special bag with them with all manner of weapons and gear to facilitate such a fight. Keeping a Bug Out Bag in the office or in the car is a wise move, but I doubt many of us are going to walk around fully kitted out all the time, so I think this will be limited to what you have on your person. Know what....you'll carry your tango bag everywhere until you get sick of it and leave it in the car one day and then, that will be the day and you will fight with what you have on your person anyway.

Those of you with little bitty guns (snubbies and Glock 27s and such), I suggest you rethink your weapon choices. I can run a mini-Glock pretty good, but not as good as a full sized gun. What do I carry? A Glock 22 when at home and a Glock 17 when away. 15 rounds or 17 rounds respectively.

Yes, the bigger gun is harder to hide. Yes, I have to choose my clothing more carefully. Yes, its heavier. All of those things they tell you are true. But when you NEED THE MOTHER F'ING GUN NOW, those uber-comfortable pocket chain guns so popular with the CCW crowd will never allow you to fight as well as a full-sized gun.

Calibers - Please! I will take a 40 or a 9mm over a 45 any day of the week for the simple fact of the matter that I can fight much longer with one than I can with a seven or eight shot weapon. It may have been a caliber edge in 1976 when the only thing going was marginal hollow point ammo, but not today bwana. Ask any of those metro-sexual gun instructors if they want to get shot in the face with my "45 set on stun".
Magazine capacity is not an asset, it is a blessing.

Engagement Dynamics - Short range, run and gun, point shooting is an essential skill and must be prioritized for the urban ambush gunfight. However, for anti-terrorist activity, if you find yourself just outside or arm's length with a doped up, combat-trained AK-armed tango, you have already stepped into it. You can still fight, but wouldn't it be far better to be able to ice these monkeys from 25, 50 or even 100 yards?

Read the reports boys. There are folks who had an eye on the action from a distance. "If only I had a gun" was one of the Brit reporters said. The ability to hit out at these distances is not hard at all. But it must be learned and trained. And, your gear must support your ability to do it.

Those uber-court-proof heavy triggers promoted as essential by the lawyer-instructors are trash. Get rid of them. You don't need a hair trigger on your pistol, but you do need a manageable trigger. My Glocks for example all use the standard 5# connector set up and give me a crisp release that is conducive to accuracy. You don't need the 3# target connector, but good heavens don't add one of the abominable New York triggers.

Those big fat close range sights? If you can hit at 100 yards with them, drive on. I cannot, so I use sharply defined black iron sights like the Heines, and the Trijicons. Those of you with eye issues that can't use the irons well enough, invest in one of the Docter red dot sights. Yep....a red dot sight on your pistol. It is small enough to carry around and bright enough that even Mr. Magoo can hit at 100 meters with it.

Another thing - Usually after one of those events I will hear "By golly if I had been there I would have pulled out my custom model 29 and..." That is usually spoken by a guy who hasn't done any physical training since high school, would have a heart attack if he had to run ten feet to cover, and is so out of condition he could not fight his way out of a Sierra Club Tea Party In San Francisco. I'm not trying to offend anyone here but its not just about marksmanship and your ammo choices. If you are already a good shot, you need to get away from the range and into the gym or the street and train your out of shape shooter's body so you will be able to fight not just shoot.

And finally, without which all else is wasted, develop the will to kill. It is hard for some to sneak up on a man and shoot him in the back of the head unannounced, regardless of what the man has done, or is about to do. You need to get over that if you want to be a player at this level. it is not about capturing, or about bringing to justice, or about "stopping the action". it is about getting the drop on a terrorist from a distance, unseen and undetected, putting your sights on his ear, controlling your heartbeat, and then pressing that trigger without a moment's hesitation.

Gabe Suarez

One Source Tactical
Suarez International USA


« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 08:13:04 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2008, 01:09:14 AM »

And a second related piece:

1). On what to do - Some folks think we are advocating running into the fight screaming with a knife in one hand and a snubby in the other. I'm not sure where that comes from, as it has never been suggested and is quite silly when you think about it.

Still, an aggressive counter attack at the outset of the incident seems to be a better option than hiding and hoping to go undetected once the bad guys have consolidated their forces. I do think that if you are unarmed (why would anyone do that today?), your options are very limited.

Additionally, if you are not at the point of contact, going to the fight may not be smart as you don't have any more info other than shots have been fired.
Going out in a blaze of glory is not on anyone's "to do" list here - at least I don't think so. But hiding helplessly and calling for help is not on it either.

If you can't do anything about the event, I am all for getting the “foxtrot” out of dodge. As far as evidence gathering - or getting intel out - or helping the police identify the bad guys, etc. Why is that your problem?

2). If you are armed (as well you should be), and know what is happening beyond a shadow of a doubt (its not the DEA in a firefight with a drug dealer that you are now intervening in), and in a position to shoot the bad guys - well - what do you think you should do?

911? Nope - not for me. Someone else can do that.
Call someone else ? Not at that point - not for me.

I am either engaging, or getting out. Once I am out, I may call, but when in the fire, you either fight, fly, or fry.

3). Before considering engaging the bad guys, consider who is with you. For example, endangering your family to save someone else may be seen by some as the epitome of selflessness, but I see it as the epitome of stupidity. I got a chance to speak with a Deputy whose daughter was killed by an armed robber because he chose to put another’s property and safety above that of his own family. Bad choice - very bad choice.

If I am in a Mumbai-esque situation with them, my job is to use my skills to get them out. Those who did not prepare are on their own until I get them to, what I consider, safety. If fifty unarmed peacenik liberals get slaughtered because I chose the safety of my tribe and family first, oh well - they made their bed, now they can bleed in it.

Now, having said that, if any tangos are in your way as you egress, you bet you should shoot your exit right through them. If I am alone, I may do something different, but family and tribe comes before anyone and anything else…so should yours.

4). If I am at ground zero, when the bad guys begin shooting, and I am alone, I will attack. Not because it is the best thing to do, but because it is the only thing to do. What other option do you have? I suggest you do likewise. And understand the tactical implications of "ATTACK". It doesn't mean running into their midst with a knife in one hand and a Glock in the other screaming “Wolverines”. If that is what you think attacking means- dude! - you need to come to class and get updated. How many times have I made an issue of shooting from long range in the Terrorist Interdiction Course?? Attack means you get your sights on the terrorist (his head if possible) and you smoke him in cold blood. This is vastly different from a typical civilian CCW self-defense shooting. There is no need for warning - no requirement to do anything, nor any chance given for surrender.

Perhaps AMBUSH is a better word.

5). I do not see the advantage in hunkering down and allowing the event to consolidate itself while you, the good witness, gather and pass information. That may be what the authorities want you to do as it benefits their mission. But YOUR mission is different.

I see what goes on in the Al Qaeda Training Video, and what has taken place in nearly every event where there have been organized terrorist active shooters. They have a plan and once they are able to consolidate their forces your options get very very limited.

An example - they know you are hiding in a covered area - and they will notice once they either stumble upon you in their security sweeps, or when you fire at one of them. They order you to come out. You tell them to go suck bacon. They grab a little girl and blow her brains out right there in front of you and her mother. As she falls, they grab another one. The mother is no longer screaming as she has been butt stroked into unconsciousness. Then they tell you again to come out as they grab up her sister and put the muzzle of an AK in her mouth. This is right out of their play books.


6). Some guys are assuming the bad guys will be using AKs. I think in Mumbai they used AKs because that was what they could get in Pakistan. One of my contacts - a man who should know, advises the rifles they used were Pakistani military AKs. If G3s would have been available, they may have used those.

Some think the AK will always mark you with the image of “the bad guy”. I think having ANY rifle in your hands may do that in these cases. Some interesting things in this area. I have asked several police guys about this and the truth is they can't readily distinguish between a FAL and an SKS. A rifle is a rifle and a pistol is a pistol. That is usually as far as it gets.

Another case in point – The Beltway terrorists Malvo and Mohammed, they used an AR-15.

Interestingly enough, there has been a fair bit of off the schedule training of cops with AKs. Agencies that allow their people to buy their own stuff are seeing more and more AKs in service. Specially the Arsenal SLRs in 223.

7). If the event is a typical psycho-lone gunman type thing like Trolley Square, Tacoma Mall, et al, you can expect a reasonably quick police response (still in the realm of several minutes at best). So the idea of picking up one of the bad guy’s rifles may not be either needed, nor wise. If you find yourself in this, you will be fighting with your pistol, not with the bad guy’s rifle, nor your personal rifle. Time to go get it, you will not have.


In a Mumbai/Beslan type event you can bet the tangos will have set up something to delay the police. Whether it is explosives, or outside shooters (which you may need to deal with as you egress anyway), or something. In such an event, picking up the bad guy’s weapons is an option. An option, but not one without risks. It gives you a better capability to engage and drop tangos than your CCW pistol, but in these events, anyone with a rifle may still be mistaken as a bad guy.

Cool. I have heard a great deal of discussion about whether Mumbai was a practice run or not. This attitude is usually seen in very US-centric thinkers. Not everything that happens around the world has anything to do with us. This was as much a practice run as Pearl Harbor was a practice run for the invasion of the Philippines.

Terror is seen as a tool by the terrorists, and not usually as an end in itself. There was a reason for Beslan, The Twin Towers, Madrid, etc. Terror creates fear and the realization that the authority in power cannot protect anyone. This will either bring a solidarity against the evil, as has been seen in Israel, or the desire to appease the evil, as has been seen in Europe. Terror hopes to appeal to that appeasement mentality who wants to give in to the terrorist so the terror will stop.

It also appeals to man's natural hatred. In this case, it appeals to the Indians who will say - "See what happens when we make friends with Americans and Jews".
It will also appeal to those who will say, "See you cannot trust Pakistan. Pakistan is and always has been, our enemy".

The fomenting of those sentiments and their cultivation and development, which may be strategically seen as an advantage by the terrorist masterminds, is what Mumbai was about.

Still, one cannot ignore that many victims there did not give a flying fornication about US Foreign Policy, India's Alliances, or Islam's Expansion, but they were still tortured and killed, specially if they were Jews or Americans.

Gabe Suarez
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maija
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2008, 08:47:41 AM »

Food for thought ....
Good, straightforward advice.
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 04:38:59 PM »

What an excellent topic. I for one have thought about my options and what I would do in similar events. Thanks for this post as it gives me some new insights and confirms that others think about this too. My father is a big time zionist and his activities in the middle east are huge and groundbreaking, but it makes me feel like I am a target for extremists. I am gearing up for the lash out and putting plans together for situational violence towards my family.

Since I am in the states, I have some better options. My advice is an old tried and true method...weapons kit caches. I need to know that if I am responding to a situation I have something at hand. Please, if you have anymore of these articles please post them.

Cheers!
Richard Styrsky (Styric)
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2009, 09:46:36 AM »

http://www.northstarnational.com/2009/12/26/northwest-flight-253-passengers-terror-attempt-courtesy-wxyz-tv-detroit/
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2009, 10:54:24 AM »

From an article by Randy Barnett titled, "The Unorganized Militia is Once Again Needed" found on the legal blog, volokh.com.....


According to press reports, a passenger helped subdue the terrorist who was attempting to bring down Northwest #253. This again highlights the importance of the unorganized militia in asymetric warfare. In Saved by the Militia, I offered this analysis in the wake of the success of the general militia on United Airlines #93 in defending Washington from terrorist attack on 9/11:
The characterization of these heroes as members of the militia is not just the opinion of one law professor. It is clearly stated in Federal statutes. Perhaps you will not believe me unless I quote Section 311 of US Code Title 10, entitled, “Militia: composition and classes” in its entirety (with emphases added):
“(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are —
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.”
This is not to score political points at a moment of great tragedy, though had the murderers on these four airplanes been armed with guns rather than knives, reminders of this fact would never end. Rather, that it was militia members who saved whatever was the terrorists’ target — whether the White House or the Capitol — at the cost of their lives points in the direction of practical steps — in some cases the only practical steps — to reduce the damage cause by any future attacks.

You might want to click through to read the whole thing, which includes this:
Here is the cold hard fact of the matter that will be evaded and denied but which must never be forgotten in these discussions: Often — whether on an airplane, subway, cruise ship, or in a high school — only self defense by the “unorganized militia” will be available when domestic or foreign terrorists chose their next moment of murder. And here is the public-policy implication of this fact: It would be better if the militia were more prepared to act when it is needed. (emphasis in original)
And ends with this:
A well-regulated militia does not require a draft or any compulsory training. Nor, as Alexander Hamilton recognized, need training be universal. “To attempt such a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable extent, would be unwise,” he wrote in Federalist 29, “and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured.” But Congress has the constitutional power to create training programs in effective self-defense including training in small arms — marksmanship, tactics, and gun safety — for any American citizen who volunteers. Any guess how many millions would take weapons training at government expense or even for a modest fee if generally offered?
Rather than provide for training and encouraging persons to be able to defend themselves — and to exercise their training responsibly — powerful lobbying groups have and will continue to advocate passivity and disarmament. The vociferous anti-self-defense, anti-gun crusaders of the past decades will not give up now. Instead they will shift our focus to restrictions on American liberties that will be ineffective against future attacks. [snip]
Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, however, Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. The Founders knew — and put in the form of a written guarantee — the proposition that the individual right to keep and bear arms was the principal means of preserving a militia that was “essential,” in a free state, to provide personal and collective self-defense against criminals of all stripes, both domestic and foreign.
A renewed commitment to a well-regulated militia would not be a panacea for crime and terrorism, but neither will any other course of action now being recommended or adopted. We have long been told that, in a modern world, the militia is obsolete. Put aside the fact that the importance of the militia to a “the security of a free state” is hardwired into the text of the Constitution. The events of this week have shown that the militia is far from obsolete in a world where war is waged by cells as well as states. It is long past time we heeded the words of the Founders and end the systematic effort to disarm Americans. Now is also the time to consider what it would take in practical terms to well-regulate the now-unorganized militia, so no criminal will feel completely secure when confronting one or more of its members.
In this column, I was not advocating arming passengers on airplanes (though I would not rule out such a policy if properly regulated). My reference to weapons training concerned other sorts of terrorist attacks where weapons are essential for individual and collective self-defense. One recent example is the terrorist attack on Fort Hood–a mandated “gun free zone”–where military and civilians were slaughtered until armed police officers arrived on the scene and were able to incapacitate the attacker using their handguns. Yet another example of how demonized handguns are a useful tool when in the right hands. Lives would have been saved if some of the army and militia members in the kill zone had been armed. Instead of empowering them to act as militia members, however, they became victims.
One reaction to my column was to ridicule the identification of passengers with militia members. (Here some will predictably dismiss the point by noting that this passenger was a Dutchman, not an American.) Of course, if the general militia consists of the able bodied population as a whole, then this is simply what the word “militia” means, though some want to identify the term with the organized militia. (Of course, the U.S. Code should be revised to include women, and even folks my age.) So it is not lost, the point of my column was three fold:
Contrary to what is claimed by many, the need for a militia continues to exist even in a world of hyper-lethal armies, and especially when engaged in asymetric warfare;
Given this need, it would be better that the militia was well-regulated, which is within the enumerated powers of Congress;
This regulation need not entail any conscription, but voluntary training programs so people feel empowered to defend themselves, as Jasper Schuringa on Northwest #253 apparently did (though he reportedly had to dive over more passive passengers to get to the terrorist), and conscious of their responsibilities as militia members to act when an emergency arises that prevents organized law enforcement or military authorities from taking action.
For those who still resist this idea, let me suggest that general militia membership is a socially constructed state of mind and is one to be encouraged and honed rather than discouraged and ridiculed.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2009, 09:56:19 AM »

Terror hero: I didn't hesitate

By TOM LIDDY
Last Updated: 10:50 AM, December 27, 2009
Posted: 8:35 AM, December 26, 2009

A Dutch airline passenger told The Post how he leapt into action when an alleged Muslim terrorist tried to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner packed with 300 people just moments before landing.
Chaos erupted as alleged terrorist Umar Farouk Abdul Mutallab, 23, tried to set off a sophisticated explosive device strapped to his body.

"Suddenly, we hear a bang. It sounded like a firecracker went off," said Jasper Schuringa, a film director who was traveling to the US to visit friends.
"When [it] went off, everybody panicked ... Then someone screamed, ‘Fire! Fire!’"
Schuringa, sitting in seat 20J, in the right-most section of the Airbus 330, looked to his left. "I saw smoke rising from a seat ... I didn’t hesitate. I just jumped," he said.
Schuringa dove over four passengers to reach Abdul Mutallab’s seat. The suspect had a blanket on his lap. "It was smoking and there were flames coming from beneath his legs."
"I searched on his body parts and he had his pants open. He had something strapped to his legs."
The unassuming hero ripped the flaming, molten object — which resembled a small, white shampoo bottle — off Abdul Mutallab’s left leg, near his crotch. He said he put out the fire with his bare hands.
Schuringa yelled for water, and members of the flight crew soon appeared with fire extinguishers. Then, he said, he hauled the suspect out of the seat.
"I took him in a choke to the first class and all the people were like, ‘What’s going on?!"
"I don’t feel like a hero," Schuringa told the Post as he recuperated with pals. "It was something that came completely natural ... It was something where I had to do something or it was too late."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...M0rFfwIwkjVXXM
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michael
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2009, 09:55:56 AM »

The Dutch guy is the epitome of what a hero really is. He acted out of courage and determination to end the threat, without hesitation nor back-up. He did what was required, I only wish he had killed the terrorist.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2010, 11:58:47 PM »

http://www.wftv.com/news/23151019/detail.html?cxntlid=cmg_cntnt_rss

70-Year-Old Woman Puts Carjacker In Headlock

Posted: 3:17 pm EDT April 14, 2010Updated: 6:06 pm EDT April 14, 2010

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. -- WFTV spoke with a 70-year-old woman Wednesday who put a carjacker in a headlock. The man tried to steal her minivan Tuesday in Daytona Beach while she loaded her groceries. However, Elludee Haliday wasn't willing to give up her van.

“You don't have time to think.You have to do the best you can to survive,” Haliday said.

Haliday has five stints in her heart, but she is an active 70-year-old nurse. So, it's no surprise to her that instinct took over when police say the man tried to carjack her at the Walmart on Beville Road Tuesday in broad daylight.


“I went after him,” she said.

The victim was loading her groceries inside the minivan when she saw the suspect hop in the driver’s seat. At the same time, she opened the sliding door and got in as he took off.

“I thought, ‘You’re mine now boy!’” she said.

Haliday attacked him from behind as he sped out of the parking lot and onto the main road.

“I grabbed his neck. I had the bear hug like and I kept holding and he kept going,” she explained.

The suspect caused some damage to the vehicle when he sideswiped several cars. Investigators said he tried to threaten Haliday with a gun, but she still wasn't fazed.

“I said, ‘I don't think you can reach it. Your pants [are] down to your knees!’” she said.

Haliday nearly choked him to death before he gave up and jumped out. Turns out his partners in crime were following close behind in a green Kia Sedona the whole time.

“A van was following him screaming, saying, ‘Bail out, bail out, this woman is crazy!’” Haliday said.

Everyone else thinks she's one brave 70-year-old woman.

Haliday said she has a little advice for the suspects.

“Shape up, get a life, do something to be proud of yourself,” she said.

Haliday wasn't injured at all during the incident, but was taken to the hospital just to be checked out.
Copyright 2010 by wftv.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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Rarick
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2010, 06:59:55 AM »

too bad stuff like this doesn't get MSM time.  It would encourage people to stick up for themselves and make criminals think twice about how frail the target really is........
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2010, 11:26:26 AM »

G20 looter gets straightened out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CKkLYYczdM&feature=player_embedded
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2010, 11:38:57 AM »

Should You Act? - Get Involved Or Get Away?
 Every so often we get a thread at Warrior Talk asking about what a CCW person should do if he sees a crime, or some apparent victimization.  The implied question of course is the quest for justification of the desire to jump in with both feet to save the day. That inherent desire, while noble, may also be quite foolish and self-destructive.
 
I am not saying to default to doing nothing, merely that you should think it through before taking action that could adversely affect you for the rest of your life.  Your decision will be based on three factors – location, companions, and information.  Let’s discuss it.
 
Location.  I have traveled in places that I refer to as Non-Permissive Environments.  Those are areas where the legality of being armed may be questionable, yet where it is so dangerous that going unarmed would be stupid. In such places getting involved in anyone else’s problem is a bad decision no matter the situation.   

In some places saving the day will get you a medal of valor, while in others, even if you saved everyone, the political environment would still cause you to be arrested and likely prosecuted. If you are in an environment like the latter, I suggest not getting involved in anything that does not directly endanger you or yours.

Look at it this way, will you trade your freedom, and finances to save strangers? That is what it boils down to. It is easy to be indignant at my suggestion from the safety of the internet in your living room, it is also quite easy to disagree when you carry the “Badge of America” card as an LEO with the full umbrella of protection your agency provides, but it is another matter altogether when you are sitting in the defendant’s chair, a civilian paying your own way, looking at a prison sentence because you decided to “do the right thing”. 

 If you don't have a gun its a moot point. If its legal for you to carry its also a moot point.
In a free area where you are legal to carry your pistol, again the choice is clear. Good guys can intervene in times of danger and victimization secure that if they act properly, they will probably be fine afterward.  That is the reality of why places where gun laws are lax are far safer than places where gun laws are strict…because good guys are not afraid to be good guys.
 
Companions will also have an effect on your decisions.  I spoke to an LA County Deputy once whose daughter was shot and killed by two armed robbers when he elected to intervene at the store they were robbing. Listen people…if you have your family with you, everyone else is on their own. Unless the bad guys have targeted you and them specifically, go on your way.  Whatever is happening is none of your business. Certainly, call 911, but leave and keep them safe.  Sorry to sound “cowardly” but anyone who says they will risk their family to save someone else’s money is a fool. 
 
Whether you act or not also depends on how much information you have about what is going on.  The information present and available to you may over ride the presence in an NPE, but rarely.  The less Intel I have, the less likely I am to do anything but leave. The more Intel I have the better decision I can make. What you see may not give the total picture.
Active shooter problems are easy.  When you see a man with an assault rifle shooting into the Toys R Us, you can venture a guess that that is the bad guy and that he is the one that needs to be shot.  But those are not the ones that cause us problem are they.

Two guys fighting? None of my business.

Two guys beating up a third guy? Do you act now?  Honestly, for me it depends on what they look like.  If they are two gang-type thugs beating up an old man, the choice is pretty clear.  I would have to intervene.  But if two gang-type thugs are beating up a third gang-type thug, its none of my business.  I may make a 911 call, but I don’t plan to stick around.   Is the fight you see two cops beating up a gang-thug?  Cool, but still nothing to do with you.  How about two homeys beating up a cop? Now we are back to helping out the good guys.  All different stories, eliciting different responses aren't they. Here are a few more.

One guy slapping a girl? None of my business. “Hey wait a minute!”, I can hear the chivalrous crowd yelling from across the nation.  Chivalry demands the presence of a lady.  Is the apparent victim a lady?  Are you willing to risk your life for her?  Think with your brain and not your sword.  Just on the face of the description I do not have enough to get involved, sorry.  Make the guy a gang-thug and the girl a typical soccer mom?  Things just changed because of the Intel.  Make the guy a gang-thug and the girl a meth-mouth whore? Sorry…not my fight.  My Glock will stay in the holster and my phone will be used for 911 instead.

 Its 2010 and your CCW stands for Cary (of) Concealed Weapons, not for Captain America. The only time I will get involved in someone else's fight is when I have enough info on what I am seeing to determine who is who and what is happening, I am alone or with other combatants, and then only if not doing something would shock my personal conscience.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2010, 10:23:38 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT__WQKsM
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2010, 06:52:50 PM »

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/1792352-FBI-Director-Mueller-A-Mumbai-style-attack-can-happen-in-the-U-S/
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G M
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2010, 07:55:19 PM »

Note that Mumbai type attacks have been tried many times in Israel. Aside from the schoolchildren at Ma'alot, it's hasn't turned out well for the hajis.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 08:00:52 PM »

Well, the Israeli people aren't sheeple. cool
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G M
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 08:06:27 PM »

An armed and trainedpopulation can make a big difference.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2010, 08:11:19 PM »

Woof All:

I know many people look to duck jury duty; in many cases the hardship is genuine and the desire/need to avoid it is real.  That said, IMHO many people duck it though for , , , lesser reasons.

I have served twice, and got selected to sit on trials both times; one a shooting, the other a shoplifting case.  Both times I was very proud and inspired by the people with whom I served.

Tomorrow I begin jury duty once again and I am looking forward to it.  I am shocked and pleasantly surprised to report that there has been practical progress in lessening the wasted time often associated with the experience.  I was able to register by an automated phone call, and the day before each day I find out whether I am needed or not.  For example, right now on a Sunday night, I know that they will not need me tomorrow and tomorrow I call to find out about Tuesday.

To serve and defend our Constitution,
CD
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G M
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2010, 08:19:42 PM »

Cool. I wish more had your opinion about jury duty.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2010, 04:15:07 PM »

They did not need me.  Certainly it was convenient not to have been called, but the truth is that inside I felt a bit disappointed.
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