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Author Topic: Guro Crafty/Spain Stabbing  (Read 7885 times)
Enganyo
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« on: October 09, 2003, 08:04:58 PM »

Guro, I came up with this via Yahoo search.
The first story should be about the mugging.

http://es.search.news.yahoo.com/search/news_es?p=cuchillo&nice=cuchillo&z=date&h=s
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2003, 01:10:20 AM »

Woof Enganyo:

  Thank you very much-- it is the one I had in mind.  

  There were a couple of things I didn't understand:

1) Does "atracar" mean "atacar" or something else?

2)  What does "arrebatar" mean?

3)  What does "propino'" mean?  I would have guessed "tipped" as in "he tipped the waiter" (propina, propinar) but that does not seem very logical here wink

4) What does "arma blanca" mean?  The literal "White weapon" does not seem to make much sense.

Thank you,
Crafty Dog
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Enganyo
Guest
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2003, 03:05:07 AM »

Woof Guro, I wish I knew what all the terms meant. Even translator software made the articles sound goofy.

'atracar' and 'arma blanca' are terms I've repeatedly heard in reference to Spanish bladework. Hopefully, TFS/TrueFightScholar is lurking and can shed some light.
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Spadaccino
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Posts: 87


« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2003, 07:00:42 AM »

Did someone call for me? Cheesy

I'll define the terms that I'm familiar with...

What does "arma blanca" mean? The literal "White weapon" does not seem to make much sense.

arma blanca: "white arm" or "white weapon".

"White arm" is a traditional European expression for "sword".   More broadly, it can apply to other edged hand weapons, but it most often refers to the sword.  One can find this expression in Italian (arma bianco), French (arme blanche), etc.  It appears to be a reference to the "brave" or "noble" character of close-combat weapons, as opposed to the "cowardly" associations of missile weapons (ie., consider the contempt that knights had for archers and gunners).

This sort of prejudice continued even into the Renaissance, where musketeers and arquebusiers were known collectively as "shot", whereas pikemen, halberdiers, and sword-and-target men were known collectively as "armed men".

In fact, in the 16th century, the Spanish referred to the pike as the senora y reyna de las armas ("mistress and queen of weapons").  It was not considered at all demeaning for a man of noble birth to serve as a pikeman.  Centuries before, it would have been unheard of for a noble to fight on foot, but by the Renaissance, things had changed enough where it was suitable for a gentleman to serve in the infantry, as long as he used a "noble" weapon--a hand weapon--as opposed to one that killed at a distance.  Cavalrymen could use pistols, since they were mounted.  Everything was a cultural and caste-oriented trade-off, I guess.  

Think also about the early term the Spanish used to describe the fighting methods of the Filipinos--armas de mano.

And contrast all of the above with the Spanish term for firearms--armas de fuego.

I point out all of this so that you may better understand the term "white arm" or "white weapon".

What does "arrebatar" mean?

arrebatar: this is a full-power cut, delivered from the shoulder.  In European fencing, a cut can be delivered from the wrist, the elbow, or the shoulder.  It was noted that the cut from the wrist was quickest, but also the weakest.  Likewise, the cut from the shoulder was the most powerful, but also the slowest.  The cut from the elbow was a happy "middle ground".

What kind of cut is used depends on the tactical situation, as well as the design of sword.  Speaking very generally, European swordsmen using single-handed weapons have favored cuts from the wrist and elbow, though cuts from the shoulder were employed when applicable.

In early modern saber fencing, the cut from the elbow is known as a molinello (old term for "windmill") in Italian, and as a moulinet in French.  It resembles FMA's redonda.  The molinello is still taught in the Italian School, but it's very rarely seen in competition these days.  There was, however, an Olympic-level Russian sabreur at my old salle who used it with some frequency.

Does "atracar" mean "atacar" or something else?

I honestly don't know, but in Italian, attaccare means "to attack" or "to stick".  In what context was the term used?

What does "propino'" mean?

I have no idea.  Again, in what context was it used?

You mentioned "tipped" in regards to this word; the Italian word for "tip" is punta, and this is also a period Italian term for certain sword thrusts.  For example, a thrust that comes from the attacker's left side (hitting the defender's right) is known as a punta riversa (attacks coming from the left are riversi, while attacks coming from the right are mandritti).

So, perhaps "propino" is a reference to some sort of thrust, or to the tip of the weapon in question?

That's all I know, folks.

Peace,

David Black Mastro/TFS
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"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590
Enganyo
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2003, 02:59:29 PM »

That's more Spanish than I know. Smiley

Thank you.
Smoke/Enganyo
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Spadaccino
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2003, 09:12:01 PM »

Quote from: Enganyo
That's more Spanish than I know. Smiley

Thank you.
Smoke/Enganyo


Anytime, bro!

Peace,

Dave/TFS
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"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590
Anonymous
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2003, 07:55:44 AM »

So what exactly happened in the incident in question?  I went to the site, but I can't read Spanish...
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yojimbo
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2003, 09:15:49 PM »

hi spadaccino,

i was hoping you could help me out on some linguistics here...

what exactly does arnis or arnes mean in spanish, french or italian?

eskrime or esgrime is fencer in spanish and french, correct?

for arnis, i've gotten "chain mail", "chain", "weaving" from different sources, but no one really knows what exactly arnis or arnes is.  hoping you can clear some things up.

thanks!
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Erica
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2003, 01:47:54 PM »

I have been wondering that myself, yojimbo.  I found eskrima/esgrima in the dictionary, but I cannot find arnis anywhere.  Is the word Spanish or French?
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Anonymous
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2003, 02:29:14 PM »

arnis comes from the word 'arnes' which is spanish for harness.  It refers to the ornate trappings of the costumes of actors during the Spanish occupation of the philippines.  The reason it became associated with the art is because many of the fighting techniques were hidden in the dances of the plays.

-Dog Carlo
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Spadaccino
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Posts: 87


« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2003, 03:54:29 PM »

Quote from: yojimbo
hi spadaccino,

i was hoping you could help me out on some linguistics here...

what exactly does arnis or arnes mean in spanish, french or italian?

eskrime or esgrime is fencer in spanish and french, correct?

for arnis, i've gotten "chain mail", "chain", "weaving" from different sources, but no one really knows what exactly arnis or arnes is.  hoping you can clear some things up.

thanks!


Hello Yojimbo, Erica, & Dog Carlo,

Arnis is a corruption of the Spanish word arnes, which, as Dog Carlo already pointed out, means "harness".  In the Medieval and Renaissance European context, "harness" means armor (for example, in the German knightly tradition, fighting in armor was known as Harnisch Fechten).

The expression arnes de mano ("armor of the hands") referred to the costumes that were worn by Filipino actors in the komedya plays that were performed for the Spanish.  The actors apparently incorporated martial arts moves into their repertoire, thereby helping to preserve FMA during the repressive Spanish rule.  Arnes de mano was coined around 1853, and, soon after, the term was shortened simply to arnis, which is how the Spanish word arnes was assimilated into the Tagalog lanuage.

Esgrima is the Spanish term for "fencing".  A fencer is therefore an esgrimador.

In Italian, fencing is known as scherma, whereas a fencer is a schermitore.  (BTW, spadaccino means "swordsman" Smiley).

In French, the term for fencing is escrime, while a fencer is known as an escrimeur.

In German, the term for fencing is fechten, and a fencer is a fechter.

As far as I can tell, the Spanish first used the term esgrima to describe FMA sometime in the 1700s.  Esgrima, in turn, became corrupted to escrima, when it was assimilated into the Tagalog language.  Nowadays, it has become increasingly common to see escrima spelled as eskrima.

If anyone has any other questions regarding anything above, let me know, and I'll do my best to answer them.

Peace,

David Black Mastro

P.S.  Yojimbo is a great movie!
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"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590
Erica
Guest
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2003, 07:04:22 PM »

Spadaccino,

Thank you for the good information!!! Now for a non-European word...  Where or how did the word KALI developed?

I heard people began using Kali arbitrarily  in the 60s and 70s, here in the US (sf bay area to be exact), to differentiate themselves from eskrima or arnis.  It was more blade oriented, with more spiritual connotations.

But, if you read or talked to old eskrimadors, no one really used the word Kali at the turn of the century. They were just eskrimadors, who practiced eskrima/arnis. So, where does the word Kali come from?
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rafael
Guest
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2003, 10:13:00 PM »

ok so nobody realy anserd crafties questions sssssssoooooooo i will try to help

1) Does "atracar" mean "atacar" or something else?
it means to rob or too mug to burgle.

2) What does "arrebatar" mean?
 it means to snatch or to take away.

3) What does "propino'" mean? I would have guessed "tipped" as in "he tipped the waiter" (propina, propinar) but that does not seem very logical here  
"propino" it means to give to deal BUT  it has other meanigs depending on ti use
 
4) What does "arma blanca" mean? The literal "White weapon" does not seem to make much sense.
" arma blanca " can go frome small blades to stiks or others ( it realy means any thing other than fire weaponds )
hope to have healped

and hop to see you in mexico in february guro =)
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2003, 10:14:05 PM »

Quote from: Erica
Spadaccino,

Thank you for the good information!!! Now for a non-European word...  Where or how did the word KALI developed?

I heard people began using Kali arbitrarily  in the 60s and 70s, here in the US (sf bay area to be exact), to differentiate themselves from eskrima or arnis.  It was more blade oriented, with more spiritual connotations.

But, if you read or talked to old eskrimadors, no one really used the word Kali at the turn of the century. They were just eskrimadors, who practiced eskrima/arnis. So, where does the word Kali come from?


Erica,

The term kali is usually claimed to be the "original" term for FMA, but it is in fact historically invalid.  As Mark Wiley pointed out in Filipino Martial Culture:

With regard to the term kali as being the name of a pre-Hispanic Filipino martial art, it is not.  There is no historical, anthropological, or literary evidence to support the contention that an art by this name existed during or prior to the sixteenth century.

Dr. Ned Nepangue, in his fascinating essay, "Questioning the Origins of Eskrima",  also observed:

Kali was never a traditional name for the native Filipino martial art.  If one goes to a secluded place in Cebu, for example, and asks the elder eskrimadores if they know what kali is, they will probably say they have no idea.  And these people are supposed to know.

The term "kali" appears to have first been used to describe FMA in 1957, when Placido Yambao wrote the first modern book on FMA, called Knowledge in the art of arnis.  Many theories and claims have been postulated, as to the origins of the term.  Wiley wrote:

In fact, there is a great deal of speculation as to the original meaning and use of the term in the Philippines.  Placido Yambao, for example, equates the shortened term kali as having derived from martial arts terms in various dialects such as pagkalikali (Ibanag), kalirongan (Pangasinan), and kaliradman (Visayan).  Remy Presas posits that the term derives from the Indonesian martial art of tjakalele.  Some claim that the term derives from the black and bloody Hindu goddess Kali, consort of the Hindu god Siva.  Others associate the term kali as deriving from the name of the kalis sword, and the reverse spelling of silat (or silak).  Still others equate the term with an abbreviation of Kalimantan (North Borneo), the island from which the ten datus fled, eventually establishing the Bothoan on Panay.  However, a study of various historical, anthropoligical, literary, and "popular" sources indicates that the term, as used to identify a martial art, did not exist prior to the twentieth century.

Wiley goes on to note that the term "kali" really became popular in the 1970s, due to the writings of Dan Inosanto.  It may be that Inosanto chose to group all of FMA under one term (kali) for simplicity's sake.

For more info on all of this check out Mark Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture, as well as the following essays from Arnis:  Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts (edited by Wiley):

"A Question of Origins" by Felipe P . Jocano, Jr.

"Questioning the Origins of Eskrima" by Dr. Ned Nepangue

"The Origins of Traditional Silat in the Philippines" by Joma B. Rivera

"Eskrima, Spanish Rapier, and the Lost Continent of Mu:  Thoughts on Diffusionism in Martial Arts Histories" by J. Christoph Amberger

"On Purism and Development" by Mark Wiley

Wiley also has an interesting article called "Classical Eskrima:  The Evolution and Etymology of a Filipino Fencing Form", which appeared in the Volume 3-Number2-1994 issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts.  He covers all the material regarding the term eskrima.  It is very interesting.

Let me know if I can help with anything else.

Peace,

David Black Mastro
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Spadaccino
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Posts: 87


« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2003, 10:18:17 PM »

Forgot to login yet again...  cheesy
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"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590
Spadaccino
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Posts: 87


« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2003, 10:24:51 PM »

Hello Rafael,

Quote from: rafael
ok so nobody realy anserd crafties questions sssssssoooooooo i will try to help


Hey, I did my best to explain the terms I knew, at least in their historical context.  I don't speak Spanish, so I'm still at a loss as to what the incident exactly involved.

Quote
1) Does "atracar" mean "atacar" or something else?
it means to rob or too mug to burgle.


OK.

Quote
2) What does "arrebatar" mean?
 it means to snatch or to take away.


Interesting how meanings change over time (or perhaps it's a matter of a different dialect?).  I figured since Guro Crafty didn't know the term, there might be some archaic association with it.  I therefore gave the one definition of the word that I am familiar with--a cut powered from the shoulder.

Quote
3) What does "propino'" mean? I would have guessed "tipped" as in "he tipped the waiter" (propina, propinar) but that does not seem very logical here  
"propino" it means to give to deal BUT  it has other meanigs depending on ti use
 
4) What does "arma blanca" mean? The literal "White weapon" does not seem to make much sense.
" arma blanca " can go frome small blades to stiks or others ( it realy means any thing other than fire weaponds )
hope to have healped


I think that I at least defined this one just fine. Smiley

Peace,

David Black Mastro
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"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590
yojimbo
Guest
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2003, 11:54:42 PM »

Quote from: Erica
Spadaccino,

Thank you for the good information!!! Now for a non-European word...  Where or how did the word KALI developed?

I heard people began using Kali arbitrarily  in the 60s and 70s, here in the US (sf bay area to be exact), to differentiate themselves from eskrima or arnis.  It was more blade oriented, with more spiritual connotations.

But, if you read or talked to old eskrimadors, no one really used the word Kali at the turn of the century. They were just eskrimadors, who practiced eskrima/arnis. So, where does the word Kali come from?



Kali is just a term used to differentiate.  Basically, it's for maketing.  An art based on the blade is somewhat awe inspiring.  But, actually, I don't see any difference between stick based and blade based eskrima/arnis.  I guess sticking out is good.  Maybe I'll call my art "Koochi-Koo" to differentiate it from eskrima, arnis, and kali.  It's the next evolution!!! LOL, j/k.

Quote from: Spadaccino


The term kali is usually claimed to be the "original" term for FMA, but it is in fact historically invalid.  As Mark Wiley pointed out in Filipino Martial Culture:

With regard to the term kali as being the name of a pre-Hispanic Filipino martial art, it is not.  There is no historical, anthropological, or literary evidence to support the contention that an art by this name existed during or prior to the sixteenth century.

Dr. Ned Nepangue, in his fascinating essay, "Questioning the Origins of Eskrima",  also observed:

Kali was never a traditional name for the native Filipino martial art.  If one goes to a secluded place in Cebu, for example, and asks the elder eskrimadores if they know what kali is, they will probably say they have no idea.  And these people are supposed to know.

The term "kali" appears to have first been used to describe FMA in 1957, when Placido Yambao wrote the first modern book on FMA, called Knowledge in the art of arnis.  Many theories and claims have been postulated, as to the origins of the term.  Wiley wrote:

In fact, there is a great deal of speculation as to the original meaning and use of the term in the Philippines.  Placido Yambao, for example, equates the shortened term kali as having derived from martial arts terms in various dialects such as pagkalikali (Ibanag), kalirongan (Pangasinan), and kaliradman (Visayan).  Remy Presas posits that the term derives from the Indonesian martial art of tjakalele.  Some claim that the term derives from the black and bloody Hindu goddess Kali, consort of the Hindu god Siva.  Others associate the term kali as deriving from the name of the kalis sword, and the reverse spelling of silat (or silak).  Still others equate the term with an abbreviation of Kalimantan (North Borneo), the island from which the ten datus fled, eventually establishing the Bothoan on Panay.  However, a study of various historical, anthropoligical, literary, and "popular" sources indicates that the term, as used to identify a martial art, did not exist prior to the twentieth century.

Wiley goes on to note that the term "kali" really became popular in the 1970s, due to the writings of Dan Inosanto.  It may be that Inosanto chose to group all of FMA under one term (kali) for simplicity's sake.

For more info on all of this check out Mark Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture, as well as the following essays from Arnis:  Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts (edited by Wiley):

"A Question of Origins" by Felipe P . Jocano, Jr.

"Questioning the Origins of Eskrima" by Dr. Ned Nepangue

"The Origins of Traditional Silat in the Philippines" by Joma B. Rivera

"Eskrima, Spanish Rapier, and the Lost Continent of Mu:  Thoughts on Diffusionism in Martial Arts Histories" by J. Christoph Amberger

"On Purism and Development" by Mark Wiley

Wiley also has an interesting article called "Classical Eskrima:  The Evolution and Etymology of a Filipino Fencing Form", which appeared in the Volume 3-Number2-1994 issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts.  He covers all the material regarding the term eskrima.  It is very interesting.

Let me know if I can help with anything else.

Peace,

David Black Mastro
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Crafty_Dog
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Power User
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Posts: 31846


« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2003, 02:48:27 PM »

My efforts at translation follow.  Assistance, corrections, etc welcomed.-- Crafty Dog
==============

7 de octubre de 2003, 21h31
October 7, 2003 9:31PM

    El magreb? acuchillado en Madrid contaba con numerosos antecedentes por robo con fuerza y delitos contra la salud

The Morrocan stabbed in Madrid had a long record of robbery by force and crimes against health (drug use crimes?)

MADRID, 7 (EUROPA PRESS)

 Hambri Nassereldin, el joven de 22 a?os y nacionalidad magreb? que la pasada noche falleci? acuchillado en la boca de Metro de la estaci?n de Lavapi?s, contaba con numerosos antecedentes penales, principalmente por robo con fuerza y delitos contra la salud.

Hambri Nassereldin, the youth of 22 years old and of Morrocan nationality who died last night from knifing wounds received in the entry of the Lavapies station, had a long criminal record, prinicipally robbery by force and crimes against health.

No obstante, estos antecedentes corresponden a un nombre falso o alias que sol?a utilizar el joven, Bin Manri Nasser, seg?n inform? a Europa Press un portavoz de la Jefatura Superior de Polic?a de Madrid.

Nevertheless, these corresponded to a false name and aliases that the youth, Bin Manri Nasser, used to use according to a police spokesman.

 Renato S.A., de 52 a?os y nacionalidad filipina, detenido como presunto autor material del apu?alamiento, ocurrido sobre las doce menos cuarto de la noche del lunes, declar? hoy ante los agentes encargados del caso que los hechos ocurrieron cuando "varios" individuos intentaron atracarle cuando sal?a de una tienda de telefon?a m?vil cercana a la boca del metro.

Renato S.A., a 52 year old Filipino, was detained as the presumed author of the stabbing, which occurred at 11:45PM Monday.  Renato stated today to agents in charge of the case that the deeds occurred when "various" individuals tried to rob him when he left a mobile phone store near the entry to the metro train station.

En ese momento, el ciudadano filipino portaba una bolsa con su uniforme de trabajo, una cartera con su documentaci?n y 100 euros.

In this moment, the Filipino citizen carried a bag with his work uniform, a wallet with his documentation, and 100 Euros (approx $110US)

LES ARREBAT? UN CUCHILLO/ HE DISARMED THEM

 La v?ctima del atraco logr? arrebatar a uno de los j?venes el cuchillo con el que pretend?an intimidarle auque, seg?n su declaraci?n, no lo utiliz? contra ninguno de ellos.

The victim of the hold-up managed to disarm the knife from one of the youths which was being used to intimidate him.  According to his statement he did not use it against any of them.

En un momento dado, Renato propin? varias pu?aladas a dos j?venes magreb?es -el fallecido, de 22 a?os, y un joven de 17 a?os-.

In a given moment, Renato gave various stabs to two Morrocan youths, the deceased, of 22 years, and a youth of 17 years.


En ese momento pasaba por la zona un coche patrulla de la Polic?a Municipal, que vio lo sucedido y emprendi? la persecuci?n del agresor consiguiendo detenerle.

In that moment a passing police patrol saw what was happening and began a chase which succeeded in detaining him (Renato)

El joven de 20 a?os presentaba una herida con arma blanca en el hemit?rax izquierdo, que le provoc? una gran p?rdida de sangre, adem?s de otra herida de menor importancia en la mu?eca izquierda.

The youth of 20  (should read 22 years?) years presented a knife wound to the left "hemitorax" (?) which caused him a great loss of blood, as well as another wound of less importance to the left wrist.

 Adem?s, entr? en parada cardiorrespiratoria, de la que no pudo ser recuperado, por lo que finalmente falleci?.

Then he entered into cardiac arrest, from which he could not be recovered and from which he died.

Por su parte, el de 17 a?os presentaba una herida con arma blanca en la regi?n superior del abdomen y fue trasladado, con pron?stico reservado, a la Cl?nica de la Concepci?n.

The youth of 17 years was cut upon the abdomen and was taken, with guarded condition, to the Clinic of the Immaculate Conception.

=============
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Enganyo
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2003, 06:39:25 PM »

Hemothorax usually relates to a chest/lung injury, in this case a puncture.
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Crafty_Dog
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Posts: 31846


« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2003, 10:03:25 PM »

Thanks Enganyo.

Those who read Spanish may be interested to read the other articles on the same incident which I've posted on our Spanish forum.  Some of the details vary.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2003, 03:28:31 PM »

MAKE SENSE TO ME!!! [buy california grown]

Quote from: yojimbo
Quote from: Erica
Spadaccino,

Thank you for the good information!!! Now for a non-European word...  Where or how did the word KALI developed?

I heard people began using Kali arbitrarily  in the 60s and 70s, here in the US (sf bay area to be exact), to differentiate themselves from eskrima or arnis.  It was more blade oriented, with more spiritual connotations.

But, if you read or talked to old eskrimadors, no one really used the word Kali at the turn of the century. They were just eskrimadors, who practiced eskrima/arnis. So, where does the word Kali come from?



Kali is just a term used to differentiate.  Basically, it's for maketing.  An art based on the blade is somewhat awe inspiring.  But, actually, I don't see any difference between stick based and blade based eskrima/arnis.  I guess sticking out is good.  Maybe I'll call my art "Koochi-Koo" to differentiate it from eskrima, arnis, and kali.  It's the next evolution!!! LOL, j/k.

Quote from: Spadaccino


The term kali is usually claimed to be the "original" term for FMA, but it is in fact historically invalid.  As Mark Wiley pointed out in Filipino Martial Culture:

With regard to the term kali as being the name of a pre-Hispanic Filipino martial art, it is not.  There is no historical, anthropological, or literary evidence to support the contention that an art by this name existed during or prior to the sixteenth century.

Dr. Ned Nepangue, in his fascinating essay, "Questioning the Origins of Eskrima",  also observed:

Kali was never a traditional name for the native Filipino martial art.  If one goes to a secluded place in Cebu, for example, and asks the elder eskrimadores if they know what kali is, they will probably say they have no idea.  And these people are supposed to know.

The term "kali" appears to have first been used to describe FMA in 1957, when Placido Yambao wrote the first modern book on FMA, called Knowledge in the art of arnis.  Many theories and claims have been postulated, as to the origins of the term.  Wiley wrote:

In fact, there is a great deal of speculation as to the original meaning and use of the term in the Philippines.  Placido Yambao, for example, equates the shortened term kali as having derived from martial arts terms in various dialects such as pagkalikali (Ibanag), kalirongan (Pangasinan), and kaliradman (Visayan).  Remy Presas posits that the term derives from the Indonesian martial art of tjakalele.  Some claim that the term derives from the black and bloody Hindu goddess Kali, consort of the Hindu god Siva.  Others associate the term kali as deriving from the name of the kalis sword, and the reverse spelling of silat (or silak).  Still others equate the term with an abbreviation of Kalimantan (North Borneo), the island from which the ten datus fled, eventually establishing the Bothoan on Panay.  However, a study of various historical, anthropoligical, literary, and "popular" sources indicates that the term, as used to identify a martial art, did not exist prior to the twentieth century.

Wiley goes on to note that the term "kali" really became popular in the 1970s, due to the writings of Dan Inosanto.  It may be that Inosanto chose to group all of FMA under one term (kali) for simplicity's sake.

For more info on all of this check out Mark Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture, as well as the following essays from Arnis:  Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts (edited by Wiley):

"A Question of Origins" by Felipe P . Jocano, Jr.

"Questioning the Origins of Eskrima" by Dr. Ned Nepangue

"The Origins of Traditional Silat in the Philippines" by Joma B. Rivera

"Eskrima, Spanish Rapier, and the Lost Continent of Mu:  Thoughts on Diffusionism in Martial Arts Histories" by J. Christoph Amberger

"On Purism and Development" by Mark Wiley

Wiley also has an interesting article called "Classical Eskrima:  The Evolution and Etymology of a Filipino Fencing Form", which appeared in the Volume 3-Number2-1994 issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts.  He covers all the material regarding the term eskrima.  It is very interesting.

Let me know if I can help with anything else.

Peace,

David Black Mastro
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Anonymous
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« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2003, 04:47:09 PM »

Woof All:

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one.  FWIW I am of the opinion that the term Kali is historically valid, but I've had this conversation far too many times to enter into it again.

Crafty Dog
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grace
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2003, 08:38:14 PM »

so how is it historically valid?

personally, i'm tired of having to use spanish, french, and english names for 'filipino martial arts'.  hell, even the word filipino is foreign in origin (from king philip of spain?).  so, i would really like to call it something indigenous.  

but, this indigenous name needs to be historically, tradionally, culturally relevant.  it cannot be some made up word.  becuz if you create an arbitrary word and claim it to have historical relevance, people will question its validity and laugh.

this validity should not be open to arguments.  it should be easy to prove.  others who question this name/word/title should automatically be shot down with easily proven facts.

the word "KALI" fails to accomplish the above necessities.  so, while we await this 'indigenous' term to return to us from the obscurity of the ancient past, we will have to settle for the words given to us by the spaniards (filipino, eskrima, arnis, abanico, florette, corto, largo, medio, corrida, etc).

p.s.-- if you possess these historical validities/facts, do share them so we may weight the word KALI accordingly.

p.p.s.--my questioning the etymology of the word, does not take away from the art or the practitioners of these arts.  no disrespect is meant.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2003, 08:17:44 PM »

Quote from: grace
so how is it historically valid?

personally, i'm tired of having to use spanish, french, and english names for 'filipino martial arts'.  hell, even the word filipino is foreign in origin (from king philip of spain?).  so, i would really like to call it something indigenous.  

but, this indigenous name needs to be historically, tradionally, culturally relevant.  it cannot be some made up word.  becuz if you create an arbitrary word and claim it to have historical relevance, people will question its validity and laugh.

this validity should not be open to arguments.  it should be easy to prove.  others who question this name/word/title should automatically be shot down with easily proven facts.

the word "KALI" fails to accomplish the above necessities.  so, while we await this 'indigenous' term to return to us from the obscurity of the ancient past, we will have to settle for the words given to us by the spaniards (filipino, eskrima, arnis, abanico, florette, corto, largo, medio, corrida, etc).

p.s.-- if you possess these historical validities/facts, do share them so we may weight the word KALI accordingly.

p.p.s.--my questioning the etymology of the word, does not take away from the art or the practitioners of these arts.  no disrespect is meant.


Grace brings up some very worthwhile points.

There are historically valid, indigenous terms for individual systems of FMA, but apparently there are none for FMA as a whole.

Thoughts?

Peace,

David/TFS
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