Dog Brothers Public Forum
Return To Homepage
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 20, 2014, 11:34:13 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the Dog Brothers Public Forum.
81774 Posts in 2244 Topics by 1047 Members
Latest Member: MikeT
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  Dog Brothers Public Forum
|-+  DBMA Martial Arts Forum
| |-+  Martial Arts Topics
| | |-+  the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Print
Author Topic: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")  (Read 116067 times)
bored Filipino guest
Guest
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2003, 01:09:56 AM »

Quote
Crafty Dog already indicates that this debate will never cease because historical evidence is not conclusive.


Hindi ako yung pinagsabihan mo.

I was not the one that you were responding to

Ngunit, nais ko lang ipahawitig

But, I just want to or lest be known

Na mayroong bagong lahi ng Pilipino

That there is a new breed/new generation of Filipinos

na sawang sawa na

that are fed up

sa panggugulo ng mga kano at balikbayan

with the distortions that the Americans and Fil-Ams

sa totoong kasaysayan ng aming inang bayan

to the real history of our motherland

kaya't hindi hihinto ang aming pakikipagtalo

so we will not stop debating

hangga't ang katotohanan ay umiral

until truth prevails

Mabuhay ang inang bayan! Mabuhay ang tunay na kasaysayan!

to the motherland! to the true history!
Logged
And another bored guest
Guest
« Reply #101 on: November 11, 2003, 01:56:18 AM »

Quote from: bored Filipino guest
Quote
Crafty Dog already indicates that this debate will never cease because historical evidence is not conclusive.


Hindi ako yung pinagsabihan mo.

I was not the one that you were responding to

-gone errata-

kaya't hindi hihinto ang aming pakikipagtalo

so we will not stop debating

hangga't ang katotohanan ay umiral

until truth prevails

Mabuhay ang inang bayan! Mabuhay ang tunay na kasaysayan!

to the motherland! to the true history!


I can respect this that somebody that wants back their heritage.  Unfortunately, from what little I know of it, the Filipino culture is so mired and muddled from the invaders to their motherland, it's true heritage would be difficult to fathom.  This applies to the both the benevolent versus the oppressive invaders.  Except for a few zealots, it would be even difficult to tell what a true Filipino is.  I doubt any natives there have not been "integrated" or "conquered" by another imported culture.  Despite this, it is admirable that they want to get to the roots of their inheritance.  It's a hard road considering how much they lost.  I wish them luck.

May I recommend that rather than debate, it is best to be more constructive in reviving or re-discovering what was lost.  Not all things evolved or new is bad and not all old things are good.  Sometimes it is best to leave some skeletons in the closet or let dead dogs lie.  Reinvention, no revisionism, is still a valid way to link the new with the old.  Nothing is ever really quite original although plaigirism is the best form of flattery for what was once admired.  It's better to roll with it rather than fight.  Keep on truckin'  Cheers.
Logged
style
Guest
« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2003, 08:08:01 AM »

i just need to bring something to everyone's attention (i like mayhem) the first real evidence of the use of "kali" can be traced to one source so to speak... g. placido yambao and his book - mga karunungan sa larong arnis- which by the way deals with "sword and dagger" fighting... which he called tabak at balaraw not espada y daga... and oddly enough has no real mention of "stick" fighting( that's for anyone out there who just assumes that "kali" is only about blades )... and it's not only him.. but he has the support from everyone else who helped w/ the book such as buenaventura mirafuente... at the time these guys were respected fighters and teachers ... so if you want to mess with the kali issue.. i suggest you check all your sources... oh. and on a side note... i grew up w/ tausug in bus-bus, never once did i hear of "kali" yet i did hear kuntao, silat, arnis and guess what-eskrima, oddly enough.. no "kali"... in essence... "kali" did not... i repeat- did not come from bangsamoro( moroland, the south)... but it did start in the philippines, where is anyone's guess.. but it did... i i don't like acknowledging it, but i have yambao's book in my hands... as much i may disagree with some of the contents... i still respect an old man's word...
Logged
Question Everything
Guest
« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2003, 09:34:30 AM »

Quote from: style
i just need to bring something to everyone's attention (i like mayhem) the first real evidence of the use of "kali" can be traced to one source so to speak... g. placido yambao and his book - mga karunungan sa larong arnis- which by the way deals with "sword and dagger" fighting...


Yambao, Placido. Mga Karununngan sa Larong Arnis. Quezon City: UP Press, 1957.

the KALI in Mr. Yambao's book simply means Kalirongan, the martial arts title in Pampanga, Philippines, where Mr. Yambao was from.

KA (once again) is its prefix denoting an abstract concept, while its suffix is -an.  the root is lirong, which is related to the Tagalog word Laro, which means to play.  to make the Tagalog word abstract, one simply adds the Ka- and the -an... KAlaro'AN.

the act of playing, when referring to training, is consistent also to the Bisaya dula' or in Cebuano, duwa'.

this is hardly the KALI which would later develope in the US as the "ANCIENT, PURE, LOST, BLADED art of the Philippines".
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2003, 11:02:53 AM »

Quote
"Unfortunately, from what little I know of it, the Filipino culture is so mired and muddled from the invaders to their motherland, it's true heritage would be difficult to fathom. This applies to the both the benevolent versus the oppressive invaders. Except for a few zealots, it would be even difficult to tell what a true Filipino is. I doubt any natives there have not been "integrated" or "conquered" by another imported culture."


you'll say all that about Filipinos, with what little you know, even so far as saying that there is no "true Filipino" anymore, with no need for research (because according to you, all is lost) just so you can rightly say, "I train KALI, the ancient, pure, lost, bladed art of the Philippines"?

how ironic...
Logged
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #105 on: November 11, 2003, 12:56:52 PM »

Quote from: Question Everything

the KALI in Mr. Yambao's book simply means Kalirongan, the martial arts title in Pampanga, Philippines, where Mr. Yambao was from.

KA (once again) is its prefix denoting an abstract concept, while its suffix is -an.  the root is lirong, which is related to the Tagalog word Laro, which means to play.  to make the Tagalog word abstract, one simply adds the Ka- and the -an... KAlaro'AN.


Growing up in Philippines hearing KApampangan spoken - the terms for the word 'PLAY' are:
Mamialung, Maquialung, Pa'quialungan

So did Yambao or someone else in his system appropriate Tagalog terminology to a Kapampangan system?

--Rafael KAyanan--
 Tongue
Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
logan
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #106 on: November 11, 2003, 01:11:52 PM »

i only know.....

i train escrima but i think: kali sounds very good.
it sounds agressive. its sounds like a dark goddess.
a spy like mata hari. it sounds like a martial art
have too. its sounds like a very effektive / dynamic /
complete phillipino / stick / blade / empty hand art.
the name inspire.  
 Smiley
Logged

you tink i aint worth a dollar -
but i feel like a millionaire.

(queens of the stone age)
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #107 on: November 11, 2003, 03:18:36 PM »

Woof All:

These things seem to have a certain circularity, so may I be forgiven if I repeat what I said earlier?

BEGIN

It seems to be a tradition in FMA to have terminology disputes with near religous fervor. To this American, it often seems analogous to an American and a Mexican over the word "negro". For one it is considered an unpleasant racial term, for the other it means "black". What an odd debate that would be!

Terminology is certainly not a forte of mine, , , , Concerning Kali, there seem to be many Filipinos of the opinion of our anonymous guest, and certainly its use is a minority one, but I am of the opinion that the term does have proper lineage. This point having been debated many, many, many times before I am uninterested to go into yet again. In that we use the term Kali, I merely note this diversity of opinion for your awareness.

, , ,

There are various reasons for the use of the term "Kali". Some are as described by the critics of the word. And some are not.

When used in the critical perjorative way against those who have other reasons, what communicates is a personally insulting tone/intent, and demands of proof can come across with a tone of "justify yourself to me" which tends to lead to "go fornicate yourself rejoinder" and Voila! -- a conversation devoid of forward purpose.

For the record, I believe the term to have historical merit. If you don't, I have no urge to persuade you.

But some of those that don't believe the term to be historically accurate, take an additional step and cast aspersions upon those who do.

Whatever.

The simple fact is that there is very little agreement about many, if not most things in Filipino history-- yet many seem determined to believe theirs as the one true version.

I've been around a while and I've heard countless times about Filipinos saying that the term is a fraud. Of course, the next stop in the syllogism is "How dare you, a euro-american, dare to disagree?!?"

OK, here's my teacher PG Edgar Sulite from an interview in Martial Arts presents "Filipino Martial Arts" (Graciella Casillas on cover)

ES: "In Mindanao, "kali" was the term used, but that doesn't mean it was the only one. , , , We must remember that according to the region where you live, the terms change and others apply such as 'estocada' and 'pagkalikali' and more"

Amongst the informed, the depth and breadth of PG ES's travels and trainings in the RP are well known, and many of these people may have heard of his book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima", an amazing collection of interviews and essays on various masters of the arts from around the RP.
, , ,

So anyway, what are we to do? Have a duel?!? Oh whoops, we can't do that-- no one challenged/disrespected PG Edgar's or GM Villabrille's use of the term to their face while they were alive. Well then, how about a trial by compurgation to solve the discrepancies amongst the sundry Filipinos with opinions on this?!? That would really settle it. Oy vey.  

BTW, currently Roland Dantes writes of indigenous use of the term in the south. Go find him in Mindanao and tell him how and why he's wrong.

Like these people we think the term is historically valid, we like it and we use it. If you don't, it is perfectly OK by me and I have no need or interest in changing your mind-- but it really is beyond me how anyone, Filipino or not, can claim to speak authoritatively on matters linguistic throughout the entirety of the Philippine Archipelago-- and into Indonesia to boot!

If you want 'proof' I ain't the man to give it. Go elsewhere. But if you tell me this proves that there is no proof, , , ,

END OF QUOTED MATERIAL

One of the ditties that I use in teaching is that "Intelligence is the amount of time it takes to forget a lesson."  By engaging in this conversation I have revealed a short memory. At first I was intrigued by QE's perspective and background, but unfortunately things have gone the way they usually seem to with all this.

I thought by saying TWICE that no personal dig was intended that the simple, sincere transparency of my question about whether being a white mormon would affect his access would be apparent, but apparently it set off quite a stream of consciousness that as best as I could tell was more related to prior experiences in QE's life than to the spirit in which the question was asked.  

Oh well.

Moving on to the next point I'd like to address: perhaps when QE says "the difference with KALI is that it is arrogantly promoted as the historic title of the ancient art of the Philippines" we get to some of the reason for his emotion on this subject.

 Like I said in my earliest posts of this thread "There are various reasons for the use of the term "Kali". Some are as described by the critics of the word".  I thought it clear enough at the time, but perhaps this needs to be rephrased so that the point better communicates-- there is no disagreement here that the word Kali is sometimes used in a way which is unsound and braggadocious.  (In that we are dealing with the mad, merry world of FMA how rare is that?)

However, this does not mean that ALL use of "Kali" is such.

There seems to be more than a little heat in certain quarters-- displayed here in the references about Maphilindo, Majadpahit, Kali, certain grandmasters who've never been the to Philippines, etc-- aimed at Guro Inosanto.  I confess puzzlement at the ire of his use of the terms Maphilindo and Majadpahit-- the very point of the terms is to not lump non-Filipino arts in with FMA!   It seems that Guro I. is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

There have been repeated claims of "Prove it here and now!" on this thread with regard to "Kali".  

This kind of reminds me of some FMA tournament held in Bumf*ck, Delaware a few years back that was billed as a "World Championship".  Calling it such, didn't make it such and I say this even though my students won most categories (although a year after the fact, the promoter also reversed a ruling in one of my students favor in order to make himself World Champion.)  It wasn't a world championship because the best weren't on hand.

Similarly why call on me to make the case for "Kali"?

My knowledge of these things is such that I was trying to think of the name "Yambao" but was afraid I might confuse it with the samurai movie "Yojimbo" and so said nothing LOL  

Why not seek out those qualified to speak in this regard instead of me?  

I've seen the Villabrille people defend Kali well on the ED, my teacher PG Edgar Sulite thought it sound, GT Leo Gaje thinks it sound, Roland Dantes thinks it sound (my emails in this regard were vaporized along with three months of other emails-- big bummer sad((  ) Guro I., who studied with 26 FMA GMs/Manongs from around the RP , many of them born well before 1900 (including the well-travelled Manong LaCoste) thinks it sound.  

Concerning this last point, it may be worth noting that language changes-- especially in the Philippines.  The usages to which a Manong LaCoste was exposed in his travels in the late 1800s PROBABLY are different than current ones.  How dispositive can it be then that QE has not heard the term?

Next point:

"Bored" writes

BEGIN

"you are right, we do fundamentally agree, that the modern usage of kali is a modern phenomena with roots more likely in the US, rather than PI. My own feeling on the matter, is like any other historic claim. It is not the burden of the doubters to prove (sic) its validity, but those bringing up the claims. In much of the same vein in which the code of kalantiaw was disproven by Scott, without historic basis kali claims lack reality."

END

He may well be right-- unless the recording of the historic basis is cloudy.  In which case the claims would be true, but not really provable.

In closing, a brief statement of the use of terminology in this regard of Dog Brothers Martial Arts, of which I am the founder.

We use the following terms

1) Kali: because we like it, because in America it has come to be the most common term, because IMHO there are technical matters more suitably described as such than as eskrima or arnis, because of the reminder that there was a part of the Philippines which was not really conquered by Spain, because my teacher uses the term-- take your choice.

2) Kali-silat & others: because silat is a part of the system too.  Whether its Filipino Silat or Indonesian or Malaysian or whatever we're less clear.

3) FMA based:  Because there are substantial parts of the system which are not FMA, but we consider FMA to be the heart and soul of the system.

4) A Majadpahit system with some BJJ too:  Probably pretty precise although it understates the FMA role, but also pretty useless with anyone except the tiny handful of people who know the term Majadpahit.  The purpose is to communicate, not befuddle or trigger MEGO reactions (My Eyes Glaze Over)


If you tell me there are logical inconsistencies in this, I will agree.  I just use the term that best facilitates communication with the person with whom I am talking.  I don't do/discuss/debate history.

Allow me to close with a story, the point of which I leave up to you, dear readers.

I named my second Akita "Moro".  My intention was to equate the brave warrior spirit of the muslim resistance to the Spanish and then American rule with the brave warrior spirit of the Akita.  Then I was chastized on the Eskrima Digest for using a disparaging term equivalent to sounds-like "negro"-- the complete opposite of my intention.  "How could this be?" I asked.  "What about the MILF of today?"

Now at this moment those of you out there who occasionally skim porn spam  wink  may be puzzled.  Doesn't MILF stand for "Mothers I'd Like to Fornicate?"  Well yes it does, but it also stands for "Moro Islamic Liberation Front" too and my point was "How can it be wrong for me to use the term if they do?"

I confess to never understanding the answers I was given to this question (analogous to the rap band "NWA"-- "Negroes with Attitude"Huh)and puzzled over what to do.  After all, the dog was imprinted on thinking his name was "Moro".  Upon reflection I renamed him "Morro Bay" (a famous bay here on the California coast) and call him "Morro" for short and he still comes when called.

with this, it is my sincere hope to be outta here,
Crafty Dog
Logged
And another bored guest
Guest
« Reply #108 on: November 12, 2003, 12:16:40 AM »

Quote from: Anonymous
Quote
"Unfortunately, from what little I know of it, the Filipino culture is so mired and muddled from the invaders to their motherland, it's true heritage would be difficult to fathom. This applies to the both the benevolent versus the oppressive invaders. Except for a few zealots, it would be even difficult to tell what a true Filipino is. I doubt any natives there have not been "integrated" or "conquered" by another imported culture."


you'll say all that about Filipinos, with what little you know, even so far as saying that there is no "true Filipino" anymore, with no need for research (because according to you, all is lost) just so you can rightly say, "I train KALI, the ancient, pure, lost, bladed art of the Philippines"?

how ironic...


I reaffirm my statement and add to it by saying that I do not care what it is called.  As long as it works, call it whatever you like.  I don't care.  I don't refer to it as kali, anyways.  I call it by the main name I trained under, which is ekrima.  If somebody else does I respect what they want to cal their art.  None of my business.  I never named their art even though I practiced it.  You got it all wrong, bud.  It's not my problem as long as it works for me.  Heck - I was a hardcore gung fu guy at one time before discovering FMA.  I evolved and used it as a stepping stone foundation to other combative systems.  Some people don't want to adpat or evolve, that is their issue.  If they want to hold onto the past, I am not going to stop them as long as they respect my boundaries and beliefs.  It's all quite simple.
Logged
burnsson
Newbie
*
Posts: 8


« Reply #109 on: November 12, 2003, 02:52:11 AM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Upon reflection I renamed him "Morro Bay" (a famous bay here on the California coast) and call him "Morro" for short and he still comes when called.
g



that's political correctness on a higher level.

 wink
Logged
Robert K.
Guest
« Reply #110 on: November 17, 2003, 02:27:25 PM »

My name is Guro sa Pangkinamut Robert.  I am from Kali sa Lungsod of barangay Sinugba, Cebu.  Our Grand Tibak is named Alfredo Almuranas.

I do not like this question of where is Kali from? Kali is the Filipino original art.  We use the Pinuti and the Sundang.  Our Grand Tibak still possess a Samurai sword from world war 2, which he used to kill many Hapons.  

Our Grand Tibak used Kali because this what he read in Professor Placido Yambao?s book.  Kali is not from Mindanao.  We Bisayas have fought the Moros for centuries.  They took our women and killed many men and children.  We still fight them today.  They bomb our churches and kill our brothers in Mindanao.  Kali is not theirs, it is ours.

Yes, we do not use the word Kali in Cebu or anywhere in the Bisayas.  I believe Kali came from Luzon, because this is where Professor Yambao is from.  We do not know where this word come from, but it is the word of our Art.  Maybe it come from the Igorots of the Mountains in Luzon.

We like this word Kali and we use it, because our Art is about the sword.  Eskrima is a Spanish word, it is not Filipino.  Kali is Filipino.  Maybe we do not know where it is from, but it is better than calling our Art Spanish, when they are our enemies.
Logged
Guest
Guest
« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2003, 01:07:59 PM »

Quote from: Robert K.
My name is Guro sa Pangkinamut Robert.  I am from Kali sa Lungsod of barangay Sinugba, Cebu.  Our Grand Tibak is named Alfredo Almuranas.

I do not like this question of where is Kali from? Kali is the Filipino original art.  We use the Pinuti and the Sundang.  Our Grand Tibak still possess a Samurai sword from world war 2, which he used to kill many Hapons.  

Our Grand Tibak used Kali because this what he read in Professor Placido Yambao?s book.  Kali is not from Mindanao.  We Bisayas have fought the Moros for centuries.  They took our women and killed many men and children.  We still fight them today.  They bomb our churches and kill our brothers in Mindanao.  Kali is not theirs, it is ours.

Yes, we do not use the word Kali in Cebu or anywhere in the Bisayas.  I believe Kali came from Luzon, because this is where Professor Yambao is from.  We do not know where this word come from, but it is the word of our Art.  Maybe it come from the Igorots of the Mountains in Luzon.

We like this word Kali and we use it, because our Art is about the sword.  Eskrima is a Spanish word, it is not Filipino.  Kali is Filipino.  Maybe we do not know where it is from, but it is better than calling our Art Spanish, when they are our enemies.


Well, that settles it.  Straight out of the mouth of a native Filipino.  Can't argue that and gotta' respect what he says.
Logged
Rafael Kayumangi
Guest
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2003, 12:39:20 PM »

Quote
Quote

Kali is authenticated as follows:


the following doesn't really "authenticate".

Quote
Kali is found in the language of the filipino
alphabets. In the first four Alibata or Babayin the
original filipino language: A ba (ka )da. Open the
yahoo search for Alibata and you see the explanation.


the syllable KA can also be found in Japanese, Arabic, English, Indonesian, etc. (it's pretty much found in most, if not all, languages)

Quote
Meaning the filipino language is full of meaning and
the two letters as spelled KA =a prefix for verbs in
filipino words: As Ka-lipay or happiness, Ka-lisod for
sadness, Ka-libutan for the world, Ka-limutan to
forget, ka-lirungan meaning, knowldege and etc.


it's not a prefix for VERBs, but rather for abstract concepts: KAmatuuran (truth), KAsaysayan (history), KAlayaan (freedom), KAlinaw (peace).

Quote
KA-IS WORD FOR RESPECT for Sir, your highness,your
excellency,your honor.
All persons in the early days were addressed as
Ka-pedro or Ka Jose or Ka Juan. As Ka-Marc. Ka Dan or
Ka leo.The word KA is a word to address the head of
the Iglesia ni Kristo , a religious group in the
Philippines with more than 5 million members. The head
of the Church is KA FERDIE MANALO.


this is accurate to some degree.

Quote
The rebel group in the Philippines( NPA) they address
their leaders as KA like Ka Roger. This word Ka must
be express with sincerity and greast respect.


the word KA' within the NPA stands for KAsama (comrade).  it's addressed to everyone who belongs to this movement.

Quote
Ka- is found in the flag of the first katipunan group
who revolted against Spain. The Ka-tipuneros or the
revolutionarios against the Spaniards in 1800 use the
sign K in their hats and all the flags displayed
during the assaults.


the KA stands for KAtipunan (group/society), also has the extra meaning of KAlayaan (freedom).  the original flag contains three KKKs, the KKK stands for: KAtaastaasan KAgalanggalangan Na KAtipunan ng Mga Anak Ng Bayan (the Highest and Most Respectable Society of the Sons of the People/Nation).

Quote
Kali was more of a Philosophy of the early filipinos.
This philosophy was a major drive in the filipinos
bravery  using the bolos charging  against the
Spaniards guns and spanish blades that demoralizes
every assualts surprised the Spanish officers and the
whole Spanish regime in the Philippines. Spain lost
the revolution selling the filipinos at $ 3.00 dollars
per head in the treaty of Paris in 1889.


out of nowhere, having listed various uses of the syllable KA, this is suppose to connect to KALI?  this is somewhat of an equivocation on the writers part, in which he inserts the term KALI surreptiously after having "authenticated" the KA syllable prior.  

KALI or any of this term's derivation was never used among KAtipuneros or at any time during the Spanish/Filipino or the American/Filipino War in the late 1890s and the early 1900s.

Quote
Kali found its landmark in Panay Island where the
first constitution of the land was established by Datu
Kalantiaw: The Code of Kalantiaw and the Code of
Maragtas.The influence of kali as a Philosophy were
found among the natives of Panay and the arrival of
Ten Datus from Borneo established the gathering of the
early inhabitants at KALIBO now the captial of Aklan
province where the famous Boracay White Beach Resort
is found, an international well known beach resort
found in Panay.


there is NO mention of Kali (as the ancient martial art) in the Code of Kalantiaw.  in the town KAlibo, KA is the prefix while the root is LIBO.  hardly a connection to KALI as the 'ancient' martial art.

Quote
Another remarkable place as a landmark
of Kali is the town of KALINOG- where every year the
celebration of the festival called PINTADOS is held to
celebrate the famous battle in Kalinog-meaning
earthquake where the filipinos rebels painted their
faces as disguised to infiltrate the Spanish garrison.
In northern Luzon province of Kalinga Apayao , a place
where the Kalimen settled in the north and today the
natives practice Kali in form of PIKA_PIKA.


again KA in KAlinog is the prefix, linog is the root. it seems the author is making a big deal about the happenstance of the syllable KA and LI being together in some words and town's name.  if we follow this logic, we'll have to also connect the Bisayan word KAlibanga', which means diarhea, to the term KALI.  which would be very silly.

Quote
To check the working Philosophy of Kali, known as
distinct bravery, during the Marocs time, the Army
soldiers that fought in Mindanao against the Muslim
rebellion were all the Ilongos soldiers from Panay and
Negros, other tribes like the Ilocanos and Tagalogs
were moved out to Manila. The only group of tribes in
the Philippines that the Muslim in Mindanao respects
is the Ilongo.
Even in the Marines now, only the
Ilongo marines can infiltrate Muslim rebels.


there's a big ILONGO rhetoric/proganda theme in this paragraph, so i have a pretty good idea who wrote this now.  but, in truth the Muslims, like any other group, respect those who respect them in return.  the Ilongos don't have a monopoly with the concept of respect in the Philippines. they're no braver than the next guy.  and more importantly the word KALI is Not indigenous to the ILONGOs of Bacolod or any other parts of the Philippines.

Quote
KALI as a art is accepted by the Armed forces of the
Philippines recognized by the President of the
Philippines, Former President Ramos, Secretary of
National Defense and the Present President ( open
pekiti-tirsia.net ) check the blackboard.


yes, KALI is now part of the martial arts terminology within the Philippine Military, but it has only been until recently when Pekiti Tersia began training them.  Mr. Gaje himself began using the term KALI while he was in the East Coast of the US in the 1970s, if memory serves me right.  again, no historical evidence for KALI.

Quote
Every year the town of Salvador Benedicto in Negros
celebrates the kali-kalihan festival.


i've never heard of this, i'm very interested as to how they began using the term.  and if the term has the same meaning as the martial arts KALI.  i'd also want to know when the festival started.  the big festival in Cebu City, to offer an added perspective, Sinulog began in the 1980s to attract tourists.

Quote
Kali is blade oriented fighting discipline. No
disarming, no blocking, no kata no judo throws no
aikido or jujitsui nor kicks is applied during the
fight.


ALL arts in the Philippines involve the use of a blade.  the rural areas tend to use the longer blades (i.e. kampilans, barongs, sundangs, pinutis, and other farming tools), because people tend to walk around with these implements.  in the urban setting however, since it's fairly uncommon to see a person walk around with a sword or any other long blade weapon, they've done away with the sword or long blade (as the rural folks have done away with the blow gun, bow/arrow, and shields).  but they surely still train with the knife, since there's more chances of you being poked with a knife or barbecue stick in the city.


this is a very good dissection.  thank for all this information.
Logged
Guest Pinoy
Guest
« Reply #113 on: December 10, 2003, 03:38:41 PM »

I moved to the States a couple of years ago from the Philippines.  I was a member of the Cadet Officers Corps during my high school & almost joined the Philippine Military Academy (I am not sure if it was good thing not to have continued to pursue the career).  As an officer, we carried sabers, which we called Kalis.  Kalis is the preferred term used by the Philippine Armed Forces because it is detached from the use of Espada ? a Spanish term for sword, blade, saber, etc.  Kris is the wavy-like sword from Southern Philippines more popularly known being used by the ancient Filipinos in Mindanao.  I am by the way, from Luzon ? the northernmost region of the archipelago.  

This whole thread really is very interesting, as I believe this is the only thread I probably read from page 1 to 8.  It is unbelievable, for me, how there is so much interest in the pursuit of the historicity of the word Kali which in effect, necessitated the pursuit for knowledge of Ancient Filipino history.  Why, I can only name 1 or 2 of all the friends I have had back home who had the same tenacity in trying to find ?real? answers to our nation?s historical questions.

I have always wanted to learn Arnis since the very first time we were given basic lessons of the art during my Karate class.  However, the lack of information on where the really good masters are held me back.  Eventually, when I grew up, readings have shown me that majority of the great masters came from the Southern Philippines.  Given the geographical set up of the country (and a big consideration in ?economics?), it was almost impossible for me to learn as I would need to move to Cebu in order to regularly attend classes.  Further, I find out from those readings that most of the Grandmasters were already in the United States & in Europe (I guess this should place a whole new perspective to the competence & expertise of the Guro/Teachers here in the US).  Alas, I had to let go of that dream ? for the meantime.

Fast forward to the present.  I have been looking for an FMA school here in the US (finally I can afford to do so!) & it was only now that I have learned that Kali was another term used for Arnis & Eskrima.  All the while, I thought it was another martial art from another southeast asian country!  Now, now.  This is not meant to be derogatory ? in fact this is something really good.  It is correct what one poster said that the PI is the crossroads of martial arts.  It has always been the practice by a great number of masters of any form of martial art in the PI to name a club, school or discipline after their own name, own order or own preference, because their styles have been influenced one way or another by some other martial art.  Fact is, Arnis is Arnis, Eskrima is Eskrima, Kali is Kali, Okinawan is Okinawan & Shorin Ryu is Shorin Ryu.  Ergo, FMA is FMA.  Maybe we should just call it that ? FMA.  I believe it would be very, very hard to find the lineage of the word Kali as it is very, very hard to find any other aspect of our nation?s ancient culture.  Yes, we have been influenced by so many cultures that at face value it seems that we do not have a solid Filipino culture of our own.  Fact is the existing culture IS our culture ? a colorful mixture of different cultures making a Filipino one of the most versatile and adaptable individual in the world.  Being that as premise, it means that any individual who truly practices by HEART the Filipino Martial Arts in principle is one who is capable of developing his/her skills to adapt to the ever-changing scenarios (combative or otherwise) in our daily lives.  We may not be able to find out the true lineage of the word Kali in the near future to validate its historicity, but if it has been used for the last 40 years, then that?s enough history for me.
Logged
Guest Lang
Guest
« Reply #114 on: December 11, 2003, 11:39:00 AM »

Quote
I've seen the Villabrille people defend Kali well on the ED, my teacher PG Edgar Sulite thought it sound, GT Leo Gaje thinks it sound, Roland Dantes thinks it sound (my emails in this regard were vaporized along with three months of other emails-- big bummer (( ) Guro I., who studied with 26 FMA GMs/Manongs from around the RP , many of them born well before 1900 (including the well-travelled Manong LaCoste) thinks it sound.


we have to keep in mind that the persons mentioned above, although accomplished fighters, are not trained historians or academics.  Villabrille was a farm worker, so was Lacoste, i don't believe Gaje has a degree in Philippine history, nor Sulite for that matter.  Dantes began with modern arnis, then met Sulite in Manila, a body builder/philippine actor, he is by no means an expert in Philippine history.

in the 1950-70s, before the research of Philippine history was brought to the publics' attention, rumors abound in this subject.  if a rumor broke out of how Filipino warriors once invaded the chinese empire in the 1300s, then the very persons mentioned above would also claim this "fact" to be true, without examining facts and posing theories, etc. etc. just so they can promote their art.

when non-historians, non-academics attempt to explain events, words in history, you end up with Gaje's "Kali Authentication", and other fumblings.  it is understandable that these Masters want to promote their pride in their arts and culture.  but, we should not rely on their "expertise" when it comes to history and the analysis of culture.

i think we will do more for them, if we examine history for them than have them explain it to us, since new students to FMA now have advance degrees and are able to affect some research.
Logged
haumana2000
Guest
« Reply #115 on: December 11, 2003, 05:06:20 PM »

This is one of those issues that may never REALLY be solved.  I teach a course in Polynesian pre-history.  The lack of written records leaves a huge opportunity for personal interpretation.  For instance, as I spoke of in another thread, just about every island nation in what we know of as Polynesia speaks of their beginnings in a mythical homeland called Hawa''iki, Hawaii'nui' or a variation of the above this was supposedly located somewhere near the society islands or what is french polynesia today.  NOW, try telling that to a native samoan, and he'll probably crack you on the head and tell you your full of it.  Samoans claim they could only come from Samoa the land of their people and a re a very fiercely proud group.  (Interestingly, one of the principal islands in Samoa is Savaii) sounds a lot like Hawaii no?  The point is that these belief systems are passed on from generation to generation, and have more to do with oral tradition, legend, and a sense of duty to keep telling the story than actual truth.  We all know as in religion, belief systems are fragile, and extremely sensitive subjects (i.e. religion).  So I can trace the peopling of Pacific Island natives back through either Micronesia, or Melanesia depending on the region, and all the way back to southeast asia, and even back it up with historical evidence, but the real fact is that no matter what i say, people will believe what they want.   Like religion, tearing apart the subject is exteremely volitile and you'll never win. Me i'll stick with..... oh, forget it!
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #116 on: December 11, 2003, 07:17:02 PM »

i believe the difference between ur 'hawaii' analogy and the kali debate is that with the absence of hawaii in the samoan creation story, the fact that the maoris, peoples in madagascar, seychelles, and others, have similar 'hawaii ki', 'hawaii nui', 'savaii', etc. origins have a certain collective commonality.

the kali story is the exact opposite.  for an art so ancient and well respected, there is a strange absence of this word in all the various indigenous language groups in the philippines. as an expert in oral traditions, especially polynesian as you've indicated, wouldn't you wonder why there is no collective commonality, akin to your 'hawaii' analogy, when it comes to kali?
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #117 on: December 12, 2003, 09:52:39 AM »

wrong ocean brotha, Maoris are the native peoples of Aotearoa (now new zealand) Not Madagascar or the seychelles.  Neither Arnis, or Escrima are pre-hispanic in origin either.  We know that it did exist prior so the question really is, what to call it?  If you don't know the name, just that it did exist is it not up to the practitioner himself?  The Micronesian martial art of "Bwang" is very similar in appearance and culture to the FMA, but is spread across many of the atolls the region, so there are a ton of different names for it, depending upon who you ask sometimes there is no name ascribed to it. When I was learning Fma growing up, we just called it fighting.  My Lolo use to call techniques playing tricks or he would describe a jab cross as"when somebody play jack dempsy to you".  I think the whole topic is up to personal interpretation, whether it's Kalibanga, Pangamut, Kali, Arnis, Escrima, monkey grabs the peaches style, or fma.  After all it is the art, the culture, the history, the movements, and the effectiveness of a style does pre-date hispanic influence thats important, the name should be the least of worries.  My kids learn the technique, as will their children as part of their history thats all that counts to me.
Logged
Guester
Guest
« Reply #118 on: December 12, 2003, 10:47:16 AM »

i think everyone knows maoris are from new zealand, brada.  we've all seen "the whale rider" (good movie, by the way). i think he was simply trying to state that the maoris, and other polynesians, to include the peoples of madagascar and the seychelles (who too are polynesian decent) share this common word: "hawaii" or many of its close derivations.

why does this common"ness" within the philippine arkipelago prove absent when it comes to the word "kali", is simply his point.  

eskrima, arnis are just names.  of which we know the origins to, which is why we are not arguing about them. "kali" however is full of unanswered questions, because of its inexistence in today's languages in the philippines, which is the opposite of the 'hawaii' phenomenon being offered as an analogy.  this inexistence can be easily interpreted into many different theories.

naming things into existence is what we do as human beings (no other animal does this), which is why people feel strongly about names in any circumstance.  if the name you use does not have validation, then people will attack it.  

example, if you call an automobile, "zoobfitizik", then people will wonder as to the origins of this word.  if you insist that it is the "ancient" name of cars before the time of christ, people will begin to wonder and question.  but, if you confess and say, " ZOOBFITIZIK is just a name i made up for cars when i was a kid, not really that ancient", then people will accept it.
Logged
old filipino saying
Guest
« Reply #119 on: December 12, 2003, 11:52:11 AM »

there's an old filipino saying, that goes something like this:

"watching a dog chase its own tail is funny, but after awhile it's not so funny anymore and you find other ways to occupy your time"
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #120 on: December 12, 2003, 12:15:58 PM »

Woof OFS:

ROTFLMAO!

What dialect(s) is this saying from?  And, how does it go that dialect?

Yip!
Crafty Dog
Logged
old filipino saying
Guest
« Reply #121 on: December 12, 2003, 12:23:22 PM »

hello Crafty,

wish i could give u the filipino version, but i don't really speak it.  my teacher who's from cebu has plenty more sayings like that, but he says it in english for us. wish i understood cebuano.
Logged
haumana2000
Guest
« Reply #122 on: December 12, 2003, 03:19:39 PM »

The people of Madagascar or Malagasy peoples would be a lot closer to those of S.E asia than Aotearoa due to it's proximity to the indian ocean, but yeah they all share a commonality as it is beleived this is where all of the original polynesians came from, but shoot most Samoans, and Tongasn as well seem to dispute this fact.   In fact, In Hawaii, and Los Angeles most Samoans see Pinoys as wanna be polyneisans which is pretty sad.  (I have to sit on both sides of the fence, but i mean that in the manliest of ways!!!)  Anyway, There is a movie called Broken english where wou can see some very nice Taiaha (maori) fighting in it.  And hell yeah Whale rider was awesome.  SO...... does anyone know the true origin of the name  Kung FU??? How about those that claim Karate is hundreds of years old when we know it's pretty darn recent in origin.  Gee, guys we are the only ones I ever see out there doing this, and what is sad, is that to outsiders who may even consider taking it up as an art click on an internet site and say shit, what a bunch of haggling old women.   The main question is why would you want to put it in a box anyway?  for that why dont wee just say ok, this is what it's gonna be called, and only this, better yet, only "authorize" certain techniques to be taught, how about making EVERYBODY go by the same ranking system?  The beauty of the Filipino martial tradition is that it is fluid, never ceasing, always changing, and dynamic.  it just is...
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #123 on: December 13, 2003, 12:37:34 AM »

in correction, east asian martial arts does have discussions like these regarding terminology, but unlike filipino martial arts, they (wing chun, karate, tae kwon do, hapkido students) tend to be more dogmatic--what master says goes. or they just don't care about terminology, bcuz they pay their 100 bucks a month, get their uniform, etc. and sleep content.  

FMA is a closer, more personal community (since we have yet to reach the level of commercialization as others have become, or maybe we refuse to), which means we argue more, like any family.  

to clear the matter, further, we are not arguing about other names of FMA (i.e. Panantukan, Sikaran, Pangamut, etc.) because we can find linguistic origins to these words, linking them to root concepts, as well as its geographic/ethnic location in the Philippines.  so, we are not really arguing about what we should call our art, because we already have names for them, which we can clearly validate and locate origins to.

we are simply discussing the term kali.  and the argument here is simple: whether it is truly the name of the lost ancient mother art (if so, how?), or is this instead a new term.  if it's really an old term then great, we should be able to prove it.  if it's not, then let's say it's not so we can move on, instead of falsely promoting a word.  think of it as academic quality control.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #124 on: December 13, 2003, 12:57:15 AM »

A most reasonable statement of your position.

Just to clarify one point though-- only some users of the term Kali are asserting "lost ancient mother art" and others (I would consider myself in this camp) simply are of the opinion that the term has historic validity.
Logged
guest
Guest
« Reply #125 on: December 13, 2003, 12:14:57 PM »

Quote
only some users of the term Kali are asserting "lost ancient mother art"


you are correct in this.  specifically, the "some users" you are referring to all belong to PT Kali.  Villabrille's Kali, Inosanto, Sayoc, Atienza, and i believe Doce Pares has also joined the band wagon, but are not as dogmatic about their use of the title Kali--they are more open minded.

Mr. Gaje and Mr. Tortal, specifically have done various speeches about the authenticiy of Kali as the original art, better than any other Philippine art.  of course their basis for this claim falls short of proving anything.  we've seen their rhetoric sway backwards and forwards on this throughout the years.

the irony though, is that PT Kali has now become very well interwined into the Philippine political/military landscape.  they, of course, now train the Armed Forces of the Philippines, and the Nat'l Police.  if you notice their new students, they are all sons of accomplished and well connected Filipino families.

with this power and connection, Kali is now being used to "bully" other martial artists in the Philippines.  hence all the "come to where the flavor is, i'll challenge anyone, anywhere, anyway" rhetoric of PT Kali in the Philippines today.

i actually respect the used of Kali by other organizations.  but, when Kali is promoted in the above context, as the "lost mother art of the Philippines, which can defeat any other", then we have a dissonance from our intended quest of honor and service.
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #126 on: December 21, 2003, 01:30:43 AM »

Quote
Subject: my apologies
Author: jacob smith
Date: 20/12/2003 19:50
  i feel that i might have offended you with my questions, sir. i am not here to argue, but merely to share my opinions and to question. if you have read all of my posts, you'll know that i'm doing my preliminary research for a book now in progress. eventually, i hope to speak with you in person as civilized individuals, not fight you.

you've already offered us your version of the Canete challenge. received with appreciation.

the reason i'm asking about Kali is because i cannot write fully about this term, if i just fall back on simple conjectures and presumptions. students of FMA now are more sophisticated than in the 1970s. they have already read of the 10 datus, the code of kalintaw, sri visaya, the school of bothoan, they know from current research that there is no Kali found here.

they have also read about Kamut Lihok is the source of Kali story, or that Kali comes from Kalis which is the mispelling of the Keris used by Muslim Filipinos. they also have read of Kali is the Hindu Goddess of India, hence it is the Filipino Fighting art. which makes no sense since Hinduism never really established a foot hold in the islands.

the Kali philosophy used by those who fought the Spaniards, the Americans, and the Japanese. if this is true why didn't Jose Rizal, Antonio Luna, and other filipino revolutionary fighters write of this philosophy and title? i work with many filipinos who fought in WWII, yet when i ask them about Kali, they ask me what this word is.

i'm sure you have never heard of this word Kali as the filipino fighting arts, either, before you came to the US in 1972. this is why you yourself used Eskrima and Arnis. during the 1960s and 1970s only two main groups used the word Kali in California, and that's the Inosanto and Villabrille schools.

so, if we are to write fully about this word, then we have to come to terms with it. if we discuss this word, and people get offended then this is counter productive and people will never know where kali originated.

yes, there is a word kali in Hiligaynon meaning to dig. and there is a town in Panay named kalibo. but there is also a soda in the Philippines named Cali and there is a Bisaya word Kalibang, and in Arabic there is a word for those who ruled after Muhammed and they are called Kalifat. and California begins with Kali. there is a tagalog verb, Kalisan, meaning to scrape off.

but, we cannot offer these mere syllabary connections as historical proof of Kali. much research has already resumed to shed light about Philippine history, this is why i'm staying in touch with the Kasaysayan Dept and Anthroplogy Dept at the University of the Philippines, in Diliman.

i'm asking you how you came to use the word Kali in New York, so we may be able to fully write about this title with complete fairness. do not be offended of all my questions, they are meant to shed light, not darken our martial arts.

---------------

"You come also to Panay Island and start telling the Media and TV audience that the TEN Datus history is a Hoax and the SRI VIJAYA EMPIRE AND THE MADJAPHAJIT excludes the Philippines and that there is no KALI word that exists."

i've shared books in support of these new findings to enlighten you, not to offend you.


"You also come to Negros and question about the Kalikalihan festival in SALVADOR Benidicto town or more to your curiousity you proceed to Kalibo Aklan and check personally if there is really Kalibo."

the municipality of don salvador benedicto between the municipality of san carlos and calatrava is a new municipality established in the 1980s, during the reign of Marcos. when they wanted to create a festival in the 1980s they chose Kali having read Inosanto's book about it. i've done research here as well and it returns me to the US.

"If you have not visited these Islands it is about time that you come and let us know so we can accompany you and even Uli Weidle of the Pekiti-Tirsia will be willing to bring you to these places. No amount of discussion in any forum will convince people of that story."

I have visited the Philippines, there are places named Kalinga Apayo, Kalinog, and Kalisay, but they do not connect to Kali as the filipino fighting arts. as soon as i can obtain funding for the final research process, i will indeed contact you and mr. weidle. thank you for the offer.

------------------------
again...

i'm asking you when and how you came to use the word Kali in New York, so we may be able to fully write about this title with complete fairness. do not be offended of all my questions, they are meant to shed light, not darken our martial arts. thank you again. and much apologies if you were offended (as an American, i tend to be direct and blunt with my questions).
 
 
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #127 on: December 21, 2003, 02:49:58 AM »

Woof All:

  It is getting a bit confusing with so many people signing simply as "guest".  I'd like to ask everyone to either use his real name or at least to choose ONE "nomme du keyboard".

Muchas gracias,
Crafty Dog

PS: Glad to see a mutually respectful tone starting to take root on this.
Logged
andres bonifacio
Guest
« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2004, 08:36:09 AM »

hi, i'm a tagalog and am familiar with old tagalog ("malalim na tagalog") used in the batangas province.

here's the literal meaning in tagalog of the following filipino words:

guro = teacher
punong guro = head teacher, school principal
panuntukan = for punching (never heard it used but is a "valid" word)
dumog = get smashed ie "nadumog ang katawan (body got smashed)"
silat = to fall
sikad = to trip/stumble (root word for sikaran)
kalis = saber/sword (also the term used by the RP military for saber)


traditional terms for the following english words:

teacher = guro, maestro
fist fight = suntukan
wrestling = buno
kicks = sipa, tadyak
fencing/swordfighting = espadahan, eskrima

also, "Florante at Laura", the epic/poem by Francisco "Balagtas" Baltazar which was widely popular during the 18th century philippines, used "KALIS" to describe a sword and also mentioned "ARNIS", and "BUNO" as games played by the youths.

i hope this helps Smiley


one question: what did GM Lacoste originally call his art?
Logged
DEADLYBALINTAWAK
Guest
« Reply #129 on: January 25, 2004, 08:01:22 AM »

these titles are a little bit sickening, however most of these titles are used by western practitioners of FMA, they are given titles because thats what most of them want.. Also most of the titles used by filipino teachers are only used for the western audiencei could not ever imagine someone in cebu or mindanao ever claiming to be a tuhon, punon guro or better yet DATU. they would have been laughed at. Also claiming these titles even now in most  parts of the philippines will make the claimer look like an IDIOT!!!!
also the title of grandmaster in the last 2o years has been abused severly in the FMA..
Logged
logan
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #130 on: January 25, 2004, 03:35:08 PM »

could one of the fillipinos tell me what formalities and courteousies
are observed with older people and teachers?
like for example how in china it is considered very bad form to show someone the sole of one`s foot.

thanks for answering
bobi
Logged

you tink i aint worth a dollar -
but i feel like a millionaire.

(queens of the stone age)
Beginner
Guest
« Reply #131 on: January 25, 2004, 05:45:19 PM »

Some basic courtesies that we usually do:

1.  If you know Tagalog, you have to use "po" after every sentence.  When saying "yes", instead of saying "oo", one must say "opo".

2.  When two people are talking (not necessarily older than you or someone of higher authority like that of a guro) & you cannot walk around them & you are forced to go through them, you must bow your head as you're passing them while excusing yourself.  I've been asked a good number of times by a lot of Americans why we kind'a "crouch" when walking in between people because it does look weird.

3.  When meeting an older relative, the more traditional Filipinos will do a "mano".  You carefully take his/her right hand w/ your right hand & "kiss" the back of his/her palm w/ your forehead.

4.  The young must not join in nor even listen to the conversation (unless invited) between/among older people.

5.  Unless you are asked to ask questions, you must follow the instructions given by older people or teachers w/o reservations.  You can always complain when they're gone but you have to do it.

6.  My grandmother's generation does not allow us to eat w/o a shirt on & w/ a hat on.

7.  You must not wear a hat inside the house.  Older people will look down upon this & you are considered rude or "bastos".

8.  You must not sit in a relaxed (i.e. crouched, legs crossed, etc.) position when you are visiting somebody's house - most especially if you have just met.

9.  You must always be apologetic w/ older people & women.

10.  You must always give a hand to older people & women.

There are a lot of things that I can't remember right now.  I guess because we practice the courtesies everyday, I kind'a take them for granted & I can't remember all of them - sorry.

Hopefully, I was able to help.

Much respects
Logged
logan
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #132 on: January 26, 2004, 07:35:17 AM »

oh yes of course - thanks for answering.

greetings bobi
Logged

you tink i aint worth a dollar -
but i feel like a millionaire.

(queens of the stone age)
dexter
Guest
« Reply #133 on: March 09, 2004, 04:29:48 PM »

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13180

Quote

“First of all have you been to Panay or Negros? there is no point discussing things with you since you haven't been here, if you just base your facts with the university facts then you are limiting yourself."

I have visited Dumaguete and I have visited Sagay for an Anthropology symposium there, although this was 5 yrs ago.



"How many species of animals do you think are out there that science have not discovered but are living there lives for thousands of years, we don;t know maybe there are still tribes that are living somewhere that we don't know of."

Actually, all tribes around the world have been mapped out. Specific research about clans are now underway. In geography, the oceans and the lands have been mapped out. Of course, all mammals have been discovered. But, you are right about the smaller species.



"The point is you don't base your facts from other peoples research, as I have pointed out so many times our history have been twisted by the spaniards, like the bible, do you think that bible of ours now is the exact replica of the original one? is it not that constantine the great did a lot of disecting and twisting of it to suit his political ambitions....? "

I'm basing my facts on liguistics, which if you follow in Philippine academics is revamping new ideas and improving older theories. The languages in the Philippines is still quite alive. Some areas might lose certain words, but these words are found in other areas. The anthropology and history dept in UP (the harvard of your country no less) are making new strides in linguistics. If you claim that your grandfather used the word KALI to mean the original art of the Philippines, then why doesn't this word show up in other ethno-linguistic groups in your country?



"My grandfather is no longer around to tell you face to face about kali, if you don't believe it's up to you, you said that kali came to america because of villaabril and Inosanto then that is one proof that it exists, there are things that are lost in written form but are alive in our culture and are told only by word of mouth, now if you are really looking for a rosetta stone that could verify your theory then dig for it as long as you live!"

Inosanto says he just mixed up KAmut and LIhok (words in Bisaya) to get Kali. Much like his MAPHILINDO. if Kali is a cultural phenomena, then why can't your own filipino anthropologists and linguists locate this word anywhere in the Philippines?



"but to say that it does not exist is a big mistake, don't genralize things before you have not exhausted all the angles of posibilities, like the t rex dinosaur is it not that a century ago scientist made general statements of this and that, and a century later de ja vu they found one set of new t rex bones somewhere in africa and changed the whole scientific theory! so better be careful of your theories especially if you are trying to make statements against family things, just as what you said that my grandfather just made up the kali word is a personal insult on my part..."

It wasn't insult, I was just simply using logic. If your grandfather did use the word Kali for your art, then you should've used this word from the very beginning, prior to NARAPHIL. Why the switch, when you came to america, then the re-switching afterwards? And how do you explain all the Spanish words present in your system?



"About the kali kalihan festival in salvador Benedicto you said that they just made it up when they read Inosanto's book, my god where in the hell did you get that?"

Maybe, my source was ill informed. Forgive me for writing that, but the fact that this word still originated in the US still holds true.



"did you know that the town of Salvador Benedicto was still un accessible in the 1970's? and the people who live there are called the pulahan tribes did you know that? bet you did not now you know better put that in your research notebook..."

the Pulahanes are not tribes in the Philippines Mr. Gaje. this is an Anthropologic fact. The history of the Pulahanes are found in Mr. Ileto's "Pasyon" and Mr. Mojares' "War Against the Americans", to name a few books. They were first documented in Southern Luzon, then in Samar, Leyte, Bohol, Negros, and Cebu in the 1900s and sometime prior. they were so named for the red they wore. They were a millenarian religious group which spread during the first years of the American occupation.



"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"

There is the connection I was looking for!!! So, basically it has you after having lived in America, having political connections, knowing your people will receive any American information rather easily, since colonial mentality (as Mr. Constantino has eloquently written about) is very rampant among Filipinos. Of course, when you offered the word Kali they accepted.



"so where in the hell can these people read about inosantos book these people don't even know any dan inosanto! they live way up in the mountain, I'm just wondering who is that stupid @$$ researcher who told you that, you better check on your facts before believing it.if you want to find kali customs and traditions then tell me I would be happy to accompany you there to see for your self, than sit in your computer and insult other people."

There is no need to re-check the Inosanto connection since we already know it was in fact you, having political connections in that municipality, who named it kalikalihan.



"About that arnis and escrima in new york I was appointed by General Fabian Ver to be the head of the Naraphil, and arnis was the one that General ver adopted, in support for that I was obliged to name my organization arnis escrima, but after the disentigration of Naraphil I had my kali since that was what my grandfather taught me to."

So, to recap… You are saying that your grandfather did call his art Kali? and this is what he has called it since his grandfather's time and so on?



"have you noticed those so called grandmasters who adulterated the Filipino martial art? you see we still believe that our great forefathers are still guarding this ancient art and had made it sacred, maybe they are in spirit now but we still believe that they are the guardians of this art of kali."

I've also done research in Mindanao. and you are right, the blade is still very much a part of their culture there. This is also true for some tribes in Nothern Luzon. the fact that the Philippines has a pretty sophisticated fighting arts isn't my contention here. it is the title Kali and its origin. For the sake of research, I want to write a complete rendering of your people's arts (this has been done for Japanese martial arts, Indonesian, and I know fellow doing research about India's fighting arts). So far all reference to this word KALI has taken me back to the US. I have yet to find Kali in any of your nation's ethno-linguistic groups. but, I do have alot of conjectures that relate to the origin of this word (i.e. Kali is a Hindu Goddess, which is silly because the Philippines was never hindu. Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in Mindanao, or Luzon, and I'm pretty sure they do not use it in the Bisayas. I have already offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman.

I cannot write a book and say, Mr. Gaje, Mr. Inosanto (who has never visited the Philippines) and Mr. Largusa (himself a Filipino-American), say that Kali is the ancient mother art of the Philippines--It must be so. This would greatly affect my status as a researcher. I am not like other researchers who have come before, regurgitating information word for word from those who he has interviewed. I actually have an academic background from your country, and I have many friends there that I love. I love your nation, and this is why I am badgering you for the truth. If you feel offended, this is natural because I'm taking all that you've held true and subjecting them to questions you've never asked yourself. But, the final outcome of this research will speak fairly of the Filipino Warrior Arts for the generation of filipinos to come. Which is why i'm doing this.

After we've subjected this word Kali and bombarded it with all possible attacks, if this title is legitimate then it will stand by itself. We wouldn't have to rely on "my grandfather used it, trust me, this is why it's true" evidence. Because i'm sure you already know, this is not academic.

Again, I look forward to meeting you sir, to hash out further the origins of the Filipino martial arts and its history.

 



"so there you are, is it not remote to think that some families or a group of people have preserved their own knowledge and customs and traditions?"


You are correct on this, sir. But, you’ve claimed that "Kali" is the name of the "ancient art of the Philippines". So, this is not a "family" or "group" martial art anymore. If Kali is indeed the "mother art of the Philippines", then we should also be able to come across this title in other regions and among other ethnic groups. Thus far only a very few people in the Philippines refer to their arts as Kali. Of course, the bigger FMA franchises have adopted this term (although they cannot explain its origin). Why, for example, is Kali not found in Mindanao and Luzon? (although there is Kalirongan, but as I’ve explained before KA (is the prefix) lirong (is the root word) and –AN (is the suffix)




"you said that villabrile mentioned kali in his art, they were the first migrants of filipino workers in Hawaii, now you claim that this people in the 1920's made up kali?"


Yes, the villabrille-largusa school uses KALI. I’m in contact with this group. So far, their instructors in California have not really explained Kali as well. Villabrille himself used ‘eskrima’ and ‘arnis’. Yet, it was Largusa who popularized the term Kali. Villabrille, a relative of the Illustrisimos of Bantayan Island, Cebu, switched from using ‘eskrima’ to Kali only in the 50s, which connects to Mr. Yambao’s book published in the 1950s in which he mentions the word "kali". Since Mr. Yambao was from a region in the Philippines which used "Kalirongan", there is a big chance that Kali is just a truncated version of this word. the Villabrille school have been kind enough to refer me to the island of Kaui to seek more information about the Kali connection with their school.





"if this person mentioned it in the 1920's then there is something or a grain of truth about it, remember there was no other fma in america that would create the so called politics, those migrant workers went to hawaii to work in the pineapple plantations and not to earn money in teaching fma, they had brought with them their knowledge and customs and traditions, just as your multi racial immigrants brought theres to america."


The documented use of the word Kali with this group dates to the 50s only. I’m still trying to research, whether in the 1920s and 30s the word Kali was used in Hawaii by Villarbrille. In contrast, I have interviewed several Filipino-American soldiers in California and Washington, who have fought with the 1st and 2nd Filipino Regiments in WWII. I’ve also interviewed some who were from the bolo/guerilla battalions in the Philippines. None have heard of Kali, although they are familiar with eskrima, arnis, pangamut, panantukan, etc. etc.




"there is no basis that this people would make up stories because they want to make a financial empire out of fma, just as some so called grandmasters are doing now, making up things claim as their own and make money out of it."


But you are one of these "grandmasters making a financial empire out of FMA", are you not? The biggest Filipino schools are Presas’ Modern Arnis, Canete’s Doce Pares, and your Pekiti Tersia (actually you are the biggest among these three since you are directly connected to the Philippine Gov’t). And then there are the American based schools, like Sayoc, Villabrille-Largusa, Inosanto-Lacoste blend, etc etc… How are you different from these "financial empires"?





"Now there are things that are kept within the family, just as fma techniques and styles are closely guarded secrets, my late uncle Teodorico Tortal did not talk to me for 2 years because I started teaching the family art. Now if you are looking for these things in books and from our heroes, is it not that these people were our model of principles? for sure if they had one in the family, they would not talk about since they are bound with an oath."


Yes, I am familiar with family arts, handed down thru generations. But, your art is the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". So, this means we should be able to see it in other groups and regions in the Philippines.








"Just like the voodoo and spell that we have in the Philippines, yes documentaries have been done films have been shown about it, but have you found a "published book " that was printed showing and teaching all the encantations of the black magic world, of course not! unless you become a disciple and be a member of the inner core of practitioners then you can get hold of one.

I saw one documentary in National geographic, a search for solomons mines, they tried to extract information from priests, sects leaders and had maps and physical evidence as well as historical records as basis for tracing the where abouts of it even the trade routes they try and analyzed it, but at the end what they got was a hypothesis that, that place could be"not confirmed" place of solomons mines! know why? because those who had proofs hesitate or WOULD NOT TALK so what can you get? how can you prove it?"



Yes, I understand that there are secrets that cannot be known by outsiders. But, the fact that people have read about and known about "solomon’s mines" is the basis of my argument. If something is big, people will know. The details might not be available, but the general nature of the claim will be known. For example, Kali is the ancient mother art. This is your claim. Because it is ancient and people have handed it down for generations, then we should expect some people to atleast be familiar with this title. I would understand that the specifics would be hidden. But, the opposite instead is true with Kali. People have never heard of it (in the Philippines), yet if you tell them about your techniques and weapons, people will be familiar. When you say baston, daga, punyo, florete, etc. people are familiar, but when you say Kali, people become less familiar. So, your analogy with voodoo or magic isn’t really similar with the whole Kali phenomena, because this phenomena is the exact opposite.






"So if we put it in the the position of kali, first of all I claim that kali is a philosophy as well a martial art. did you know how many historical artifacts and books that we lost during the Spanish era? have you realized that?"


Yes, I realize that much information have been lost, but not all. If you say, the title Kali has been passed down in your familiy through generations, then why can’t you offer a tighter explanation? Every martial art term, in any art, has an origin. When you say punyo, we can say it’s spanish for the butt of the sword. When you say wing chun, tae kwon do, karate, krav maga, judo, eskrima, arnis, pangamut, etc etc… we can all trace these terms to a meaning and where that meaning came from. This isn’t true for Kali. Kali by itself doesn’t mean anything in any Filipino dialects. This is the reason you fall on conjectures, when you try to explain its origin. This is why you say it’s from the Goddess Kali (is this what your grandfather said?), or the word is found in the word Kalinaw, Kalipay, Kalibanga', or that people in the NPA call each other Ka’ (this stands for kasama by the way, which is comrade). These are all conjectural tangents. also, I have spoken to a relative of yours who carry the name Dekiti-Tersia. Both of you hail from the same family style, yet both have two completely different versions of your art’s title. Because according to him, the Tortals have alsways used eskrima or arnis, Kali is something new introduced by you. I understand that he or you could be wrong, but the fact that there is this big difference in title, sparks one’s curiousity.





"one of those could be a book about kali, just as in our history books tells of the barangay form of government which came from the word balangay which discribes a big boat or raft that was used by early malay migrants in migrating to our islands, these was confirmed and authenticated when in the 1980's a raft was discovered was dug in mindanao."


If this word Kali has been lost then how did you or your family come to use it? If your answer is that it’s been passed down through the generations, then why can’t you provide its etymology and it’s meaning. When I say meaning, I do not mean merely saying, "Kali is a philosophy of the ancient Filipino warriors". When I say meaning and origin, I mean for example: wing chun came from the name of it’s originator, or eskrima is the filipinized spanish word to mean fencing, pangamut comes from kamut or hand in Bisaya, and they mean this... etc.





"Is it not that some of our cultures are left by the word of mouth? the martial arts in ancient time was not a political or a commercial trade, it was only practiced by a few and only handed down with in the family, it will take you strength and courage and persiverance to be adopted within ones family and be taught the art if you are an outsider, so rules are strict and codes of conduct are preserved, honor was the conduct of the day. ATMOST SECRECY IS THE RULE!"


Yes, by word of mouth. Information is transferred by word of mouth or in writing. If you claim that Kali is transferred thru word of mouth, then why can’t you explain its origin and meaning? The word kali is not a secret anymore, yet you still cannot offer a sufficient answer about its origin and meaning.






"That is why I said that there are things that you cannot find in books, or just in everday life, go to Siquijor, the island known as the black magik capital of the philippines and talk about hiring somebody to do a black magik or voodoo demonstration for you see if somebody will do it, they will just laugh at you, yeah maybe one will say ok I will do it for a fee, but do you think you will get the original? I don't think so these things are best kept secret not advertised in the yellow pages, unless you have an intermediary who is really a reliable one then you can get to the heart of it, so if you are just like those backpacking white guys that goes around interviewing people with a camera and pencil and paper and digging past research in libraries then forget it. if that was what you did then you were all the while barking on the wrong trees for so long!"


This is true. But you will pick up words like Hilot, Barang, Mananambal, Arbolario, Lanag, Orasyones, and Antin-anting. I learn of all these in Siquijor Island. Granted I wasn’t able to find out the specific details of these occult arts but the overall concept and meaning are available, although the secret details aren’t. But the opposite is true for Kali. We can’t figure out the meaning of this word, the general concept/title, but once you go inside your art words like espada, daga, fondo, abecedaria, florete, etc are very familiar since they are the same words used in eskrima and arnis.





"practicioners of the real art are not after being concernerned of coming out on films and tv's they die with their techniques and honor!"


But, you are on film, the internet, tv, newspaper, magazine, and radio. And you have taught your techniques to europeans, asians, and americans.




"if you are looking for that ethno linguistic connection then what are we? are we not ilonggos an ethnic group? "


Yes, but why aren't other Ilongos, at the very least, familiar with this term?



"villabrile where did he came from? is he not a member of an ethnic group too? "


Yes, he is cebuano. But no other cebuanos use this term. Although his cousin Illustrisimo, uses the word Kalis for his art. But, he doesn’t say it’s the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". His Kalis is related to Keris the sword in Mindanao, since he learned most of his art in Zamboanga. In fact, he has a totally different take on Villabrille, in his book “Secrets of Kalis Illustrisimo”.





"as I have said fma a long time ago was not for everyone it was a close knit group of people so you cannot just find it anywhere, just like you go to a supermarket and dept store and get everthing, or just talking to common people and find everthing, and to do statistics what do you think would be the percentage of people doing fma before compared to the population itself, coming in to terms the rigidity of the training and the strictness of discipline? so it is not remote that these things become extinct as the time passes and only a few survived the onslaught of time, if insects become extinct when there are millions of them you think it is remote that the Philosophy of kali had the same fate too?"


If the "philosophy of Kali" was extinct, how did you or your family come to rediscover it. And why can’t you explain the meaning of Kali and its origin?








"So what's the big deal? does that make kali any different? you are just trying to be political, in the first place kali pertains to a philosophy and martial art while arnis and escrima is only a name of an fma martial art. when I wanted to invoke the philosphical part of the art, I cannot say escrima and arnis have philosophies since they are just merely names of fma given by the spaniards. so I have to go back to the original roots which I owe my grandfather everything I know and the philosophy he had implanted on me."


You can’t really say that your cliche _expression "we choose life not death" is a philosophy. This is common sense, anybody would choose life over death. It is basic human survival instinct. And you can’t really say eskrima and arnis are without philosophy. When you say this, you’re saying that the WWII veterans I have spoken to, who have wielded their bolos and swords in actual combat in the Philippines, have no philosophy because they were not familiar with the title "Kali".





"As I have said, we were under the spanish rule for 333 years to be exact try and count how many generations could fit in that number?, is it not remote that the spanish words had it's influence on the terminologies? as you said language is evolving, so is it not possible that through time terms had evolved and all that was left was the original philosophy and the techniques."


Again, why can’t you provide a better explanation of this title? If you say that this word has evolved since, then we should still be able to figure out its meaning, like the words Hilot, Barang, Lanag, Anito. These are all pre-spanish words by the way, yet many filipinos are familiar with these terms, although not its details.







"Now that is the problem you base your facts from other peoples research, I think you misunderstood what I mean the pulahan tribe that I was talking about was the pulahan that PAPA ISIO headed in the town of Isio south of negros island. they were originaly called karul-an they were separated from the lowlanders, they had their own form of government and set of beliefs and customs and traditions, when the spanish came and tried to envade them they declared themselves independent so the the spanish regime masaccred the tribe but few survived and migrated to other places , but brought with them their own set of beleifs and customs and traditions later on as time passed by, they integrated with the pulahan that you are talking about and so they were known in time as the pulahan. And the remnants of these are still in Salvador Benedicto.The old name of Salvador Benedicto is Igmayaan."


Basing your initial research on other people’s research is what you’re suppose to do. This is the academic process. Now you are saying it’s not the pulahan (first, you said "it was the pulahan tribe), it was actually the karul-an tribe who were accepted among the pulahanes. The pulahan as you’ve explained used the word Halad, before you changed it yourself. Halad means offering in Bisaya. Records indicate that the municipality of Salvador Benedicto is composed of about 60% Bisaya (cebuano) and about 40% Ilongos (hiligaynon). This is from the census. My question now is, did the populace of Benedicto use the title Kali, or did they know about it, before you introduced it? Were they even remotely familiar with this term and its meaning?





"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"

"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? "



Yes it is political, if the populace didn’t use this title to begin with. This is what you call an Introduced Cultural concept. Very much the same with what christian missionaries do when they visit non-christian tribes and introduce foreign concepts, thus yanking them out of their already established cultural traditions. Also Kali is not a custom or a set of beliefs, unless you can explain how it is a custom or set of beliefs, besides just saying that "in Kali, we choose life not death, and health over sickness, etc etc.". This is not philosophy, this is just a collection of cliches. You will find the same "sayings" in Tai Chi, Chi Gong, or Karate. What you did was merely introduced the "kali is the ancient martial arts of the Philippines" concept, which was your own. They were not using Kali prior to you.






"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? To honor ones past glorious days? no amount of money could compensate for ones beliefs and principles, That is why Japan is lucky in terms of their cultural heritage, for they have preserved the Samurai and the bushido even though maybe just maybe none is left of this so called samurai warriors, or maybe because no Spaniard colonizer have set foot on their islands! to adulterate everything!"


But, making up a word "to honor ones past glorious days" is suspect since the rest of your art’s terminology is still very much related to other arts that use the title eskrima and arnis (like seguidas, florete, abecedario, baston, orasan, etc.)










"you say Phil. was never hindu now do you also mean that Phil. had never had any trading relations with India? How come we still call our teacher in tagalog Guro?"


I’m not saying there’s no Indian influence. We all know of the Vishayan empire. But, to make an assumption that Kali refers to the hindu goddess is somewhat of a stretch, because Hindu as a religion never really established itself in the Philippines. If it did then we should also see the Gods, Shiva, Ganesh, etc etc of Hindu represented. It is fairly common for cultures to borrow words from others, but it is unheard of for names of Gods to be borrowed without actual religious conquers. Examples of religious conquerings are the Moros of Mindanao, there is plenty of Arabic liturgical terms present because there was an actual Islamic foothold in this region, this was never true for Hindu. another would be the Spanish catholicization. Further, saying Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish in origin, and that this is the reason Kali is used, because it is Indian, is not logical. Because Kali would still be just another conqueror’s term, much like the Spanish eskrima and arnis.





"and we have documented writings which originated from the sanskrit?we did not read that in inosantos book! and don't you know that most some of the voodoo spells have indian words on them? so where did we get that maybe you can tell me or explain that to me. Look for the katipunan flag what is that letter in the middle? it's sanskrit in origin that is the letter K."


I have yet to have read this about actual sanskrit writings in the Philippines. When you say actual sanskrit, you are referring to the writing system in India. Many scholars have compared the Baybayin alphabets to actual sanskrit Alphabets, and although there are stylistic similarities, they are totally different. The K in sanskrit does not look anything like the K in Baybayin, the filipino alphabet on the Katipunan flag.






Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman.


"So is it not queer? that most of these words have kali as a root word?"


As I’ve explained, "Kali" is not the root of these words you keep bringing up. Linog, linaw and lipay are the roots, earthquake, calm and happy. When you add the prefix KA, it becomes an abstract concept. This is basic filipino grammar. Kalibang means diarhea in bisaya. Libang is the act of taking a crap. So, "kali" is not the root. To make connections into these syllables would also be to say that California and Calistenics and the town Calisco in Mexico are related to the "ancient Philippine martial arts".




"so that tells you something do more research and more diggings one day you might stumble on a rosetta stone and find something, the fact that these words have kali as the root word…"


Kali as I have explained is not the root. Ka is merely a prefix in the words you’ve mentioned.




"I suggest you learn their dialect and maybe you could find one, since I think the one that you talked to are all professors and academic people, why not learn the dialect itself of ethnic tagbanuas, tibolis, bilaans,etc. and live with them for years it could open windows of oppurtunity to you then you might find what you are looking for."


And this is what I, along with other researchers, are doing. Instead of relying on conjectures and empty rhetoric, and collections of cliches, we are trying to figure out the origins of these cultural phenomenons in the Philippines. On a side note, one of the anthropology Phd candidates in UP that I contact regularly in matters of terminology is himself T’boli from Mindanao. And I have asked him about Kali in his culture, and he informed me that this word is just not found among his people. Hopefully, I can do more research. But, there is still so much to learn about your nation.





"Anyway the research profession is a big, those that you refered to are just human beings that are fallable, they could commit errors why not do it yourself and do what they have done, maybe you could find something that they had missed out who knows right?"


Well this is what I’m doing, sir. I’m using the information already gained by others, and from them I am making my own discoveries and conclusions into the origins of Filipino martial arts and other cultural realities. the is the academic process. exactly, because people are "fallable", this is the reason we have to keep on comparing facts and theories and providing evidence for everything we claim. With your help and others, I will be able to write a complete account. I don’t want to follow what other researchers of Filipino martial arts have done, we both know that the written works thus far are great examples of mediocre research. So, please bare with me and we will get to the bottom of this. Thank you once again.

Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #134 on: March 09, 2004, 08:27:38 PM »

Dexter:

  This is a very interesting post.  Would you tell us where you got its contents please?  

Thank you,
Crafty Dog
Logged
pretty_kitty
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 137


« Reply #135 on: March 09, 2004, 11:48:13 PM »

Marc,

I traced this exchange back to the following forum (2/21/04):
http://pub9.ezboard.com/fexxeslogikfrm9.showMessage?topicID=45.topic

It's a copy/paste into this forum.  A Google search brings up zero.

I'll contact the person who posted to this forum and see if he can help.

 Smiley
Logged

Cindy "Pretty Kitty" Denny.
Dog Brothers, Inc.
dexter
Guest
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2004, 12:22:06 AM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Dexter:

  This is a very interesting post.  Would you tell us where you got its contents please?  

Thank you,
Crafty Dog


I read it in Martial Talk, here's the link, again: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13180
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2004, 01:15:54 AM »

Woof Dex:

Please forgive my excessively laconic previous post and allow me to clarify-- if I am not mistaken the URL you give is NOT the original posting of this material; it is a cut and paste.  So the question of this material's provenance remains.

Woof,
Crafty
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2004, 02:44:51 PM »

I think I've seen this same post in another forum, actually.  Let me try to find it, and give you the link if I can get it today.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #139 on: April 10, 2004, 07:58:30 AM »

Woof All:

IIRC the Yamboa book was first published in 1951.  A bone from the Eskrima Digest to gnaw on for those so inclined:

woof,
Crafty Dog
===========

The actual title of the book in question is Mga
Karunungan sa Larong Arnis ni Placido Yambao at
isinaayos ni Buenaventura Mirafuente (The Knowledge of
the Game(?)/Sport(?) of Arnis by Placido Yambao and
edited by Buenaventura Mirafuente).

You might find it interesting to note that the section
on the history of arnis in Yambao's book was actually
written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, his editor
(Maikling kasaysayan ng arnis ni Buenaventura
Mirafuente/Short history of arnis by Buenaventura
Mirafuente, pp 9-14). Mirafuente (p. 10) states that
kali was the original name of arnis at the time the
Spaniards came, but due to the inevitable changes
brought about by time and events, it became known by
various names in different areas of the Philippines,
such as pananandata in Tagalog, pagkalikali in the
Cagayan valley especially in the Ibanag-speaking
areas, kalirongan in Pangasinan, kaliradman in Bisaya
and pangaradman in Ilonggo, and didya in Ilokano,
which became also known as kabaroan according to Fr.
Gregorio Aglipay.

Mirafuente adds further (p. 14)in his endnotes to this
chapter, a short discussion on the similarity of the
terms kali and kalis, the latter described as the
sword used in kali.

Mind you, the above is just a short and rough
translation/paraphrase of the original Tagalog text...
Anyway, it appears that kali used in this sense simply
refers to the martial art encountered by the Spaniards
at the time of their arrival.

Respectfully,

Bot

P.S. I put game/sport as alternative translations of
the word "laro." "Laro" literally means to play, but
can also mean a game or a sport. In some contexts, it
also means contests or combat.
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #140 on: April 10, 2004, 12:40:37 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Woof All:

IIRC the Yamboa book was first published in 1951.  A bone from the Eskrima Digest to gnaw on for those so inclined:

woof,
Crafty Dog
===========

The actual title of the book in question is Mga
Karunungan sa Larong Arnis ni Placido Yambao at
isinaayos ni Buenaventura Mirafuente (The Knowledge of
the Game(?)/Sport(?) of Arnis by Placido Yambao and
edited by Buenaventura Mirafuente).

You might find it interesting to note that the section
on the history of arnis in Yambao's book was actually
written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, his editor
(Maikling kasaysayan ng arnis ni Buenaventura
Mirafuente/Short history of arnis by Buenaventura
Mirafuente, pp 9-14). Mirafuente (p. 10) states that
kali was the original name of arnis at the time the
Spaniards came, but due to the inevitable changes
brought about by time and events, it became known by
various names in different areas of the Philippines,
such as pananandata in Tagalog, pagkalikali in the
Cagayan valley especially in the Ibanag-speaking
areas, kalirongan in Pangasinan, kaliradman in Bisaya
and pangaradman in Ilonggo, and didya in Ilokano,
which became also known as kabaroan according to Fr.
Gregorio Aglipay.

Mirafuente adds further (p. 14)in his endnotes to this
chapter, a short discussion on the similarity of the
terms kali and kalis, the latter described as the
sword used in kali.

Mind you, the above is just a short and rough
translation/paraphrase of the original Tagalog text...
Anyway, it appears that kali used in this sense simply
refers to the martial art encountered by the Spaniards
at the time of their arrival.

Respectfully,

Bot

P.S. I put game/sport as alternative translations of
the word "laro." "Laro" literally means to play, but
can also mean a game or a sport. In some contexts, it
also means contests or combat.


true, Kali was mentioned in Placido Yambao's book. But I am not convinced.

I am looking for a forum post that I read earlier about this matter. Apparently, Mirafuente's basis for mentioning Kali came from an article written for a Californian newsletter that was published in the US. So if you trace the roots of the term "Kali" it seems that it was still an idea imported from the US and did not have any local (Philippine) basis
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2004, 02:18:42 PM »

Yo woof:

Given the empahsis on precise history by the anti-Kali crowd, a citiation would be appropriate.

Even if your memory AND source on this are accurate,  there were (and are) an awful lot of Filipinos in the US, especially CA where to this day they are the second largest minority (Mexican is first, black is third).  Is there a (conspiracy?) theory as to why pre-1951 Filipinos in the US would be making this up?  

yip,
Crafty
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #142 on: April 11, 2004, 02:32:54 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Yo woof:

  Is there a (conspiracy?) theory as to why pre-1951 Filipinos in the US would be making this up?  

yip,
Crafty


yes, playing with history to market the art to suite American tastes.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #143 on: April 11, 2004, 03:40:59 PM »

So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  wink
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #144 on: April 11, 2004, 06:40:22 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  wink


C'mon crafty, I am applying a bit of skepticism.

These people were martial artists and not historians. Their flaw was not doing their research well enough because they just quoted something that came out of a Filipino community newsletter in the US.

skepticism, yes. Because Filipinos love almost everything that comes from America, specially in 1951 which was post WWII when American GI's with Douglas McArthur were seen as heroes ( which is quite ironic since the last time that the Americans came before WWII they were more of oppressors than liberators since they had a "scorched earth" policy against the Filipinos in the Philippine- American War where some historians estimate that 300,000 to 600,000 Filipinos perished)

yes, they love anything American, so anything that comes from America can be easily accepted, Philippine law is patterned after American law, Filipinos love eating hamburgers, play basketball, and use English as the official business language. Hence, it would have been easier for Yambao and Mirafuente to easily quote that.

-- to be continued
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30849


« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2004, 07:07:11 PM »

Woof S:

I'm not sure my point is communicating well, so before your continuation please allow me to flesh it out a bit.

If FMA were not being taught publicly in the US until the late 1960s, what sense does it make to say that a newsletter published in the late 40s-early 50s that Filipino agricultural workers was making up a term to market to American tastes that were not to come into existence for 20 years or more?  (Still awaiting the citation on this claim of this being the source for the Filipino book passage in question BTW)

Allow me to offer an alternative interpretation for your consideration:
Amongst the tremendous cross-sections of the Philippines to be found in Stockton were men (some born in the 18th century) who did use the term Kali-- a term of their youth which may have died out subsequent to their emmigration which they brought with them.  

for your consideration,
C.
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2004, 07:10:47 PM »

Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  wink


C'mon crafty, I am applying a bit of skepticism.

These people were martial artists and not historians. Their flaw was not doing their research well enough because they just quoted something that came out of a Filipino community newsletter in the US.

skepticism, yes. Because Filipinos love almost everything that comes from America, specially in 1951 which was post WWII when American GI's with Douglas McArthur were seen as heroes ( which is quite ironic since the last time that the Americans came before WWII they were more of oppressors than liberators since they had a "scorched earth" policy against the Filipinos in the Philippine- American War where some historians estimate that 300,000 to 600,000 Filipinos perished)

yes, they love anything American, so anything that comes from America can be easily accepted, Philippine law is patterned after American law, Filipinos love eating hamburgers, play basketball, and use English as the official business language. Hence, it would have been easier for Yambao and Mirafuente to easily quote that.

-- to be continued


as regards to not yet being taught to the public:

how sure can you be about that? maybe not commercially, how about privately? -- but even up to now I know some masters who take American students and teach underground. I have heard of some masters even up to now talk about myths and legends or probably even make up some just to keep their underground American students interested.

next, As what I have mentioned Mirafuente and Yambao were not historians, and the part where they mentioned "Kali" was just a very short citation, that' probably the reason why they did not even bother much to research further on the definitions since it was a very small, if not significant part of the whole book. Their priority was to show techniques and not to discuss history.
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2004, 07:13:10 PM »

Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  wink


C'mon crafty, I am applying a bit of skepticism.

These people were martial artists and not historians. Their flaw was not doing their research well enough because they just quoted something that came out of a Filipino community newsletter in the US.


sorry about the flow of ideas. this computer is killing me.

yes, I will try to find out the document as promised.
skepticism, yes. Because Filipinos love almost everything that comes from America, specially in 1951 which was post WWII when American GI's with Douglas McArthur were seen as heroes ( which is quite ironic since the last time that the Americans came before WWII they were more of oppressors than liberators since they had a "scorched earth" policy against the Filipinos in the Philippine- American War where some historians estimate that 300,000 to 600,000 Filipinos perished)

yes, they love anything American, so anything that comes from America can be easily accepted, Philippine law is patterned after American law, Filipinos love eating hamburgers, play basketball, and use English as the official business language. Hence, it would have been easier for Yambao and Mirafuente to easily quote that.

-- to be continued


as regards to not yet being taught to the public:

how sure can you be about that? maybe not commercially, how about privately? -- but even up to now I know some masters who take American students and teach underground. I have heard of some masters even up to now talk about myths and legends or probably even make up some just to keep their underground American students interested.

next, As what I have mentioned Mirafuente and Yambao were not historians, and the part where they mentioned "Kali" was just a very short citation, that' probably the reason why they did not even bother much to research further on the definitions since it was a very small, if not significant part of the whole book. Their priority was to show techniques and not to discuss history.
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2004, 07:14:33 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous
Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  wink


C'mon crafty, I am applying a bit of skepticism.

These people were martial artists and not historians. Their flaw was not doing their research well enough because they just quoted something that came out of a Filipino community newsletter in the US.


sorry about the flow of ideas. this computer is killing me.

yes, I will try to find out the document as promised.
skepticism, yes. Because Filipinos love almost everything that comes from America, specially in 1951 which was post WWII when American GI's with Douglas McArthur were seen as heroes ( which is quite ironic since the last time that the Americans came before WWII they were more of oppressors than liberators since they had a "scorched earth" policy against the Filipinos in the Philippine- American War where some historians estimate that 300,000 to 600,000 Filipinos perished)

yes, they love anything American, so anything that comes from America can be easily accepted, Philippine law is patterned after American law, Filipinos love eating hamburgers, play basketball, and use English as the official business language. Hence, it would have been easier for Yambao and Mirafuente to easily quote that.

-- to be continued


as regards to not yet being taught to the public:

how sure can you be about that? maybe not commercially, how about privately? -- but even up to now I know some masters who take American students and teach underground. I have heard of some masters even up to now talk about myths and legends or probably even make up some just to keep their underground American students interested.

next, As what I have mentioned Mirafuente and Yambao were not historians, and the part where they mentioned "Kali" was just a very short citation, that' probably the reason why they did not even bother much to research further on the definitions since it was a very small, if not significant part of the whole book. Their priority was to show techniques and not to discuss history.


sorry, have problems with this computer.

yes, will try to find out documents as proof.

 wink
Logged
Sun Helmet
Guest
« Reply #149 on: April 12, 2004, 12:55:57 AM »

Crafty makes a good point... there's a nearly a decade long gap of written records concerning the next appearance of FMAs in the States. If there were American (caucasian) private students in 1951, they would be known or be discovered- at least an interest of how they developed would be found.

With written proof of the origin of the quote, it would at least shed some light on the matter. Is this gentleman still alive?

--Rafael--
---------
----------
----------
----------
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!