Dog Brothers Public Forum
Return To Homepage
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 16, 2014, 12:08:56 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the Dog Brothers Public Forum.
82449 Posts in 2249 Topics by 1062 Members
Latest Member: seawolfpack5
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  Dog Brothers Public Forum
|-+  DBMA Martial Arts Forum
| |-+  Martial Arts Topics
| | |-+  the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 Print
Author Topic: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")  (Read 117656 times)
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #200 on: July 25, 2004, 10:40:26 AM »

No one seems to notice that "Kali" has no natural conjugations.  This is a linguistic basic, if you have a verb or concept, you can usually take the root of that verb or concept and be able to create a word that represents the do-er, according to the rules of one's language.

In Tagalog, war is digma, the person who 'does' war is a mandirigma.  In Bisaya it's gubat, the warrior is called mangugubat.  Farm is uma, and farmer is magu'uma.  Fish is isda, Fisherman is mangingisda.

This is also true for other languages.  In Arabic, jihad is war, so it follows that the warrior is called a mujahad, or its plural, mujahadeen.  In Japanese, the person who practices karate is a karateka.

Kali which is suppose to, not only be Filipino, but Ancient, cannot be conjugated in anyway that is natural to any Filipino languages.  This is why in the US, the person who practices Kali is either a kaliman or better yet, a kaliista (sort of like a barista?).

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Logged
dog buiscuit
Guest
« Reply #201 on: July 25, 2004, 09:57:12 PM »

Quote from: Crafty Dog
OK then, what about Yambao?


Well then, didnt he call his book somethnig likke
'
"Karunungan sa Larong Arnis"? or something.....and mind  you...Yambao's Tagalog int the text even sounded like pre-modern Tagalog akin to  Ye Old English
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31210


« Reply #202 on: July 25, 2004, 10:26:20 PM »

To get up to speed, please read further back in the thread about Mirafuente's intro to Yambao's book.
Logged
dogbuiscuit
Guest
« Reply #203 on: July 26, 2004, 06:19:22 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
To get up to speed, please read further back in the thread about Mirafuente's intro to Yambao's book.


I did and I've read it myself and understood it withouth translation because it was written in my native old style Tagalog.

Mabuhay and Arnis at Eskrima.
Logged
Witchdoctor
Newbie
*
Posts: 2


« Reply #204 on: August 02, 2004, 11:36:38 PM »

Wow, all this discussion / debate over a single word! I?m really new to the FMA scene, but have noticed this topic often.
   Purely academic interests aside, is it really that important to so many people? I get the feeling some people are almost offended by its spreading use because it might be a term of American origin. Even if its historic use in the Philippines is not proven or even disproven, is it going to vanish from use or cause those using it to be shunned? It seems to me that even if it were 100% a modern, Americanized term, as long as its use was kept in context it should be okay and ?acceptable? to use. As long as one teaching an "old and historically  pure" art used a traditional name, rather than Kali, nothing would be lost or corrupted. The term could  be seen in this context to have a valid use; it seems that many teachers here in America do have their own flavour of FMA, often integrating techniques from other martial arts in order to have a more varied palette to draw from, whether for fighting, or  customizing for a student?s individual ability. I see no reason why Kali could not be a valid term for this, regardless of its etymology. I realize that what I just said of teachers here in America could probably be valid for any of the teachers of FMA over the ages, as most people tend to customize/emphasize to some extent, however I mean to keep the term for a kind of "melting pot" version, still a true escrima/arnis, but with wider-reaching influences, designed/ taught in this country. At least then it would have a bit of its own identity, rather than being another colloquial synonym. Can?t we all just get along?
        For the fellow researching this: have you checked any Spanish historical documents? Perhaps the journals or personal letters or military reports of some old kings still exist from the time during or just after the time they had rule of the Philippines. I just traced this post (dexter, march 9) from my email back  to the DB?s forum, then back to martialtalk forum, back to a Balintawak thread, how hard can it be to trace a word back 500 years? Wink   Now, where?s  Magellan?s diary ?  
   --Just my 2 cent,
      WitchDoctor
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #205 on: August 03, 2004, 11:18:14 AM »

Quote from: Witchdoctor
As long as one teaching an "old and historically  pure" art used a traditional name, rather than Kali, nothing would be lost or corrupted. The term could  be seen in this context to have a valid use; it seems that many teachers here in America do have their own flavour of FMA, often integrating techniques from other martial arts in order to have a more varied palette to draw from, whether for fighting, or  customizing for a student?s individual ability. I see no reason why Kali could not be a valid term for this, regardless of its etymology. I realize that what I just said of teachers here in America could probably be valid for any of the teachers of FMA over the ages, as most people tend to customize/emphasize to some extent, however I mean to keep the term for a kind of "melting pot" version, still a true escrima/arnis, but with wider-reaching influences, designed/ taught in this country. At least then it would have a bit of its own identity, rather than being another colloquial synonym. Can?t we all just get along?


I think people are just a little pissed off, because of how this word (Kali) is being used.  People can call their art anything.  They can call it Goobleedoo.  But, when non-Filipinos and even American Filipinos, go around saying Kali is the lost ancient art from which Escrima and Arnes comes from, those who use those terms will get offended.

We all know the underlying reason for the propaganda is commercial, but you have to expect a response from Filipinos.  and the response is that KALI is NOT Filipino!!!  If you change your sales pitch to "Kali is what Villabrille named his art, it is by no means an 'ancient' word in the Philippines, although it is very much related to other fighting arts from the Philippines", then this will be most rational.
Logged
georgeIII
Guest
« Reply #206 on: August 12, 2004, 10:54:26 AM »

has anyone been in an actual "kali" fight here? were people wearing bahags (filipino loin clothes)? did they have those fancy head bandanas? or those really cool "filipino" vests? were they wielding kampilans, sundangs, bolos, pinutis, and barongs, to the beat of the kulintang drums? did they say their orasyons? did they have their amulets? this sounds so exotic...  i think i wanna be in one.
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #207 on: October 05, 2004, 04:11:59 PM »

Great thread! Very informative.  At times repetitive, but full of good information.  Good lesson in History. Thanks!
Logged
SUN HELMET
Guest
« Reply #208 on: October 05, 2004, 04:57:25 PM »

<<We all know the underlying reason for the propaganda is commercial, but you have to expect a response from Filipinos. and the response is that KALI is NOT Filipino!!! If you change your sales pitch to "Kali is what Villabrille named his art, it is by no means an 'ancient' word in the Philippines, although it is very much related to other fighting arts from the Philippines", then this will be most rational.>>

Stating "Kali is NOT Filipino" is NOT rational either.
Now there's debate over the "MOTHER Art" and "LOST " phrases, I can understand the arguments against that.

However, to state that Kali is NOT Filipino is also stretching the truth.

The word KALI whether it was invented yesterday or a thousand years ago (depending whose side of the argument one is on) was originated by Filipinos to call their martial art. An American or European did not invent that word. Even your own argumants point to FILIPINOS! That fact can not be disputed by any evidence to the contrary.

KALI is definitely FILIPINO because it describes a Filipino Martial Art as described by some Filipinos. It doesn't demean the other terms ike Eskrima or Arnes... they are Filipino as well.

Let's not get carried away and lose focus on the discussion.

The point that is being questioned was the time table of when the word KALI entered into the FMA vocabulary, NOT whether or not the word was originated by Filipinos.

--Rafael--
----------
------
--------
-------
Logged
pepe
Guest
« Reply #209 on: October 06, 2004, 10:43:29 AM »

is the word FILIPINO here used to mean Filipino from the Philippine Islands, meaning historically intrinsic and coming from the Philippines? relevant historically.

or,

Filipino to mean identity, someone who came from the Philippines, but created something new outside of the Philippines, but because he or she came from the Philippines it is labeled FILIPINO.

(there's two concepts being used for the term FILIPINO).
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #210 on: October 07, 2004, 09:34:42 AM »

question:

Guro Dan Inosanto creates the word MAPHILINDO, his parents are from the Philippines, he's filipino by blood, he has never visited the Philippines.

No body uses this word in the Philippines. Does this make MAPHILINDO a "Filipino" term? (as it relates to Kali).
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #211 on: October 07, 2004, 05:11:02 PM »

MA= Malaysia
PHIL= Philippines
INDO= Indonesia
Logged
SUN HELMET
Guest
« Reply #212 on: October 08, 2004, 08:29:31 AM »

<<is the word FILIPINO here used to mean Filipino from the Philippine Islands, meaning historically intrinsic and coming from the Philippines? relevant historically. >>

By teaming the phrase, "Kali is NOT Filipino" to the discussion, it just piggy backs more luggage to an already heated subject. Something which appears contrary to the goal of seeking the 'truth'.

<<Filipino to mean identity, someone who came from the Philippines, but created something new outside of the Philippines, but because he or she came from the Philippines it is labeled FILIPINO.

(there's two concepts being used for the term FILIPINO).>>

It applies to the latter description because the individuals, excluding Guro Inosanto - who have the word attached to them still live in the Philippines ( GT Gaje), were first generation immigrants (Stockton/Hawaii Manongs) and some died there.

--Rafael--
---------
----------
---------
----------
Logged
SUN HELMET
Guest
« Reply #213 on: October 08, 2004, 08:32:43 AM »

<<Guro Dan Inosanto creates the word MAPHILINDO, his parents are from the Philippines, he's filipino by blood, he has never visited the Philippines.

No body uses this word in the Philippines. Does this make MAPHILINDO a "Filipino" term? (as it relates to Kali).>>

No, because as the following post indicates... the term is an amalgam of various cultures and Guro Inosanto's research and training in silat.

I believe it makes it an "Inosanto" term.

--Rafael--
-----------
----------
-----------
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #214 on: October 08, 2004, 09:27:52 AM »

Isn't KALI also the result of the joining of two words: KAmut, and LIhok? (by Villabrille).  Then, it is similar to the word MAPHILINDO.  And, the label 'filipino' is arbitrary here (ex. Guro Inosanto could've just as easily come up with the word KALI, hypothetically because it came from him, would you label this term 'filipino' or an 'inosanto' term?).

It's better to judge this term using Filipino (meaning from the Philippines, i.e. historical, traditional, culture, regional, ethnic specific, language, etc.) basis, rather than arbitrary, general concepts of 'Filipino'-ness (because Filipinos use it, it is 'Filipino').

"It applies to the latter description because the individuals, excluding Guro Inosanto - who have the word attached to them still live in the Philippines ( GT Gaje), were first generation immigrants (Stockton/Hawaii Manongs) and some died there."

GT Gaje used KALI while in the U.S. and 'first generation immigrants' are just Floro Villabrille and Ben Largusa (is he first generation?) who use Kali.  No Stockton 'manongs' used KALI (if there are any, then as proof, you have to provide where their Kali comes from in the Philippines, which group, region, town, barrio, people used it.  otherwise, it's just faith.)

ex. Roland Dantes claims that there is Kali in Mindanao, but when asked where and which group uses the term Kali, he cannot answer the question of where and who (this is what i mean by, it's just faith).
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #215 on: October 08, 2004, 09:33:28 AM »

It is like saying Vee-jitsu and Eskrido are filipino terms.  Yes, filipinos made up these terms, but to say they're 'filipino' is somewhat of a stretch.  But, no one has problems with these terms, since no one says, 'Eskrido is the lost ancient art of the Filipino people', and rattles off misinformed history lessons.
Logged
SUN HELMET
Guest
« Reply #216 on: October 08, 2004, 05:13:39 PM »

<<Isn't KALI also the result of the joining of two words: KAmut, and LIhok? (by Villabrille). Then, it is similar to the word MAPHILINDO. And, the label 'filipino' is arbitrary here (ex. Guro Inosanto could've just as easily come up with the word KALI, hypothetically because it came from him, would you label this term 'filipino' or an 'inosanto' term?). >>

Just going from this example (and not stating this is the case): 'Kamut' and 'Lihok' are words from the Philippines. 'Maphilindo' describes several countries and only partly includes the Philippines. I would describe 'Kali' as Filipino because we must remind ourselves that the discussion premise is whether or not KALI is the "LOST art" or "ANCIENT Art" ... NOT whether it is from a Filipino . Unless of course the whole debate is now whether or not 'Kali' is FILIPINO... which would be going away from the 'seeking the truth' premise and belie a whole other agenda. This would mean that you are saying that Villabrille or Lacoste didn't know 'Arnis' or 'Eskrima' if we are taking in the premise that the art of 'Kali' is one andthe same and not the 'LOST' art.

--Rafael--
btw, no one seems to be signing their posts here...
Logged
pepe
Guest
« Reply #217 on: October 08, 2004, 07:15:47 PM »

Quote from: SUN HELMET
which would be going away from the 'seeking the truth' premise and belie a whole other agenda. This would mean that you are saying that Villabrille or Lacoste didn't know 'Arnis' or 'Eskrima' if we are taking in the premise that the art of 'Kali' is one andthe same and not the 'LOST' art.


This is a good reminder and a good point.  I think, it's all one and the same, different names (maybe old, maybe not), but it's actually the same thing.
Logged
v. escondido
Newbie
*
Posts: 2


« Reply #218 on: December 05, 2004, 08:06:02 AM »

shocked I'm new to the forum, I just want to enter into the fray on this interesting thread, and I agree with "Guest".

Kali is as real as the light sabers of Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker... that is if you're still into that myth.  Here's a link that's going to shatter all these lies about the kali story.  

http://www.cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html
Logged
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #219 on: January 29, 2005, 06:50:51 PM »

Hi, Everyone.  I just spent the last 2 hours (3 bathroom breaks) readinig through this really long thread.  I feel so much smarter about Filipino martial arts now.

I'm not Filipino, but I have just recently (about 6 months now) trained in Kali, at a small school in Reseda.  I love the art, but have never really looked into the history of it, until someone refered me to this thread.

This is the most comprehensive discussion about Kali, and I just want to thank everyone for all the information posted.  I have to go for a run now to stretch out my eyes.  This thread should be printed into a book.
Logged
japtman
Newbie
*
Posts: 1


« Reply #220 on: April 24, 2005, 10:44:13 PM »

Kalibanga? KALIBANGA?! LOL what a joke  cheesy   cheesy   cheesy
I speak Cebuano and it means LBM (loose bowel movement) or more colorfully put as "the squirts"... hehehe

Rootword: Libang - to take a dump

Nice joke...


Quote from: beatnik warrior
below is also a good point... i believe studies have shown that the word KALI actually came from a popular Visayan word KALIBANGA'.  i've heard people say that this ancient word has been around since time began in the islands.  i think it has something to do with the water or the food found there.  it's worth looking into...

Quote from: Guest
so KALI is just an arbitrary fussion of two visayan words?

so it could've been KUPA, for KUmo (fist) and PAspas (speed), or maybe LALI, for LAwas (body) and LIhok (movement).

the question is... where's the historicity of this WORD?  if there is none, then just say it's a filipino-american development in the 60s.  and it will be accepted as a new development in FMA.  but, to say something is historical without the minimum of proofs is just silly.
Logged
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #221 on: May 09, 2005, 07:16:35 PM »

HAHaha...  great to learn a new Filipino word everyday. cheesy
Logged
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #222 on: May 19, 2005, 10:24:08 PM »

can anyone verify the statements in this article?

from: http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom3.html

"Except for silat / kuntao that many kali fanatics unsuccessfully try to connect with FMA, not a single Filipino Muslim grandmaster has come out to the fore. Secrecy? Then why is everyone in the U.S. selling VHS kali videos of this so-called secret Martial Art? So who's the windbag who spilled all the secrets of kali to the Caucasians and not to his brethren Pinoys? Simply preposterous! Practically 98% of the middle 20th century grandmasters the very pioneers and innovators of the FMA are Cebuanos. So where's the Moro kali grandmaster?

The most compelling evidence to prove our theory on the origins of eskrima are the epic stories of Solferino Borinaga of Pilar, Camotes and the Sabanal saga beginning with the story of the early pioneer of Moalboal Laurente "Laguno" Sabanal down to the living heirs of his son Pablo "Amboy Kidlat" Sabanal.
"

...........................................

"Borinaga?s son Martin took over the leadership of the tiny islet of Camotes, which used to be called Isla sa Putting Baybayon (White Beach Island) and renamed it after his wife Pilar. The only living master of Kapitan Perong?s system called Repikada Pegada Eskrima is Yuly Romo who teaches the style as supplementary lessons to Ka?li Ilustrisimo. He inherited the system from his uncle Tatay Anas Romo who acquired it from Emong Urias of Guindulman, Bohol. Emong Urias and his paisano (compatriot) Pedro Cortez once taught close quarters techniques to the late GM Antonio Ilustrisimo.  GM Tatang Ilustrisimo learned the subtleties of praksyon a technique outside of the original Ilustrisimo family system from both Boholano masters.  Tatang never learned "kali" or eskrima from any Moro master while in exile in Mindanao according to Master Yuly Romo.  That's a serious blow to the Moro myth in the Ilustrisimo system!" smiley
Logged
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #223 on: May 20, 2005, 12:52:15 PM »

It's a way to say that one group 'created' a curriculum based framework of FMA that we know today, rather than the FMA that was about waging war.

A way to promote that the way Visayan Filipinos were taught stick and blade is the only way to view what FMA is all about.

It all depends on the your perspective... It was obviously no secret that bladed arts exists in Mindanao, someone was cutting off all those Spanish heads. Was this FMA? If not, then perhaps FMA students will want to learn THAT martial art instead, because it was quite effective against the Visayans and their Spanish allies! wink


--Rafael--
Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
antoy
Newbie
*
Posts: 7


« Reply #224 on: May 21, 2005, 12:54:20 AM »

Quote from: Sun_Helmet
A way to promote that the way Visayan Filipinos were taught stick and blade is the only way to view what FMA is all about.

It all depends on the your perspective... It was obviously no secret that bladed arts exists in Mindanao, someone was cutting off all those Spanish heads. Was this FMA? If not, then perhaps FMA students will want to learn THAT martial art instead, because it was quite effective against the Visayans and their Spanish allies! wink

--Rafael--

With all due respects, I've talked with commanders in Zamboanga including concurrent Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Edilberto Adan to really delve into the combat mindset of the Moro rebel.  And what I got was really scary... one of the General's aides a certain Major Bermudez revealed the the Moro fighters were averse to formation combat and were individualistic fighters and very difficult to discipline, however, their only weapon is the suicidal charge that SCARED the heck out of the Spaniards, subsequently the Americans and the Visayan mercenaries.  

Yes, the Junior officers and ranking commanders of the MILF and MNLF had rigid military trainig, but in contrast whatever type of training the rank and file had were basically- charge! aim, and fire...  Not because the field commanders were bad trainers, it's the culture of "die and go to paradise" that has been ingrained in the mind of the typical Moro warrior.  That would have been the same type of martial training they had more than 300 years ago - charge!, cut and slash!  Other non-Muslim tribes in Mindanao like the Subanon, Tiroray, Bukidnon, Manobo, Hongking also possess an array of bladed weapons, but they have practically no weapons based organized martial art!

If indeed those Moro blades were effective against the Visayans whose villages they have raided for hundreds of years, then why have they not gained a permanent foothold of the Visayan villages, the Moro settlement in Cebu City is just a small block in Pasil and none in the coastal towns they once raided.  In contrast more 80 % of Mindanao speak Cebuano Visayan language.  So the question is:  Who conquered whom?  Where's Moro Grandmaster?
Logged
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #225 on: May 21, 2005, 08:35:04 AM »

Quote from: antoy

 Where's Moro Grandmaster?


Look at your last question... "Where's Moro Grandmaster?"...

That's what I'm talking about.
"Grandmaster" was never a term used by anyone in the Philippines prior to a hundred years ago. That's a systemized foreign based framework (Spanish, Japanese, American) that you are trying to fit into another culture. We all know that historically, tribal leaders WERE that tribes 'GrandMasters'... they were warriors.

Some FMA instructors and students desire to invalidate the fighting prowess of the 'Moros' by this method. Development of teaching methods founded on a foreign criteria which suits the commercialized MA structures of today does not lessen the historical fighting prowess of the Moros.

Quote from: antoy
If indeed those Moro blades were effective against the Visayans whose villages they have raided for hundreds of years, then why have they not gained a permanent foothold of the Visayan villages, they have raided for hundreds of years


Again, look at your comment, "they raided for hundreds of years".
Don't you think the development of firearms, the alliances with Spain and America, and many other elements had something to do with that?

Based on your own set of criteria, prior to those significant developments, your "non Moro" martial arts was not very effective was it? The Moros fought their way all the way to 'Maynila'.

As per the opinions of heresay from ( quoted from TWO degrees of separation from the actual source) someone who considers the Moro their enemy, what do you think they are going to say? I've read history books written from the same perspective, except they demonize the Moros even more.

Quote from: antoy
the Moro settlement in Cebu City is just a small block in Pasil and none in the coastal towns they once raided. In contrast more 80 % of Mindanao speak Cebuano Visayan language. So the question is: Who conquered whom?

That's the whole weakness of this whole thread. Everything is based on what LANGUAGE is being used... and I stated earlier that other's TRUE agenda will surface.

It was not to state that Filipinos had their own ways of battle, but that ONE segment of Filipinos is FMA.

If it is based on systemized foreign frameworks, that may well be true... especially when one side is writing their own version of criterias which exclude others.

However, history tells us otherwise. And again, history will bite those who use this method of exclusion, because "who conquered whom", based on the influence of communication... If that was the case - we're currently both 'speaking' ENGLISH. FMA is now being translated into english based formats... in a few more years, it won't even be Filipino if you think it of it that way.

Quote from: antoy
Other non-Muslim tribes in Mindanao like the Subanon, Tiroray, Bukidnon, Manobo, Hongking also possess an array of bladed weapons, but they have practically no weapons based organized martial art!  


Eventually this mindset will Divide and Conquer our ancestor's legacies.

Who conquered whom indeed.

--Rafael--

PS. "Charge, cut and slash"...he forgot that the Moros used the "Thrust" as well. That's pretty much the purest form of swordsmanship.

Hit and run is also part of effective guerilla warfare isn't it? Why would the Moros wish to fight in western formations? Unless we're now stating that war has to be fought the way our Spanish 'Grandmasters' fought it.
Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
antoy
Newbie
*
Posts: 7


« Reply #226 on: May 22, 2005, 04:03:47 AM »

Quote from: Sun_Helmet
Quote from: antoy

 Where's Moro Grandmaster?


Look at your last question... "Where's Moro Grandmaster?"...

That's what I'm talking about.
"Grandmaster" was never a term used by anyone in the Philippines prior to a hundred years ago. That's a systemized foreign based framework (Spanish, Japanese, American) that you are trying to fit into another culture. We all know that historically, tribal leaders WERE that tribes 'GrandMasters'... they were warriors.

Some FMA instructors and students desire to invalidate the fighting prowess of the 'Moros' by this method. Development of teaching methods founded on a foreign criteria which suits the commercialized MA structures of today does not lessen the historical fighting prowess of the Moros.

Quote from: antoy
If indeed those Moro blades were effective against the Visayans whose villages they have raided for hundreds of years, then why have they not gained a permanent foothold of the Visayan villages, they have raided for hundreds of years


.

Okay, okay, just spoofing the most abused title in the FMA ...and I agree that the title grandmaster is a recent adaptation modelled after the Chinese and Japanese martial arts ranking. SO, let me rephrase the question...Where's the Moro Kali expert? Where are the Kali schools in Mindanao?

It's not a question of demonizing the Moro fighting prowess, no martial artist in his right mind will question that! The issue is - whatever martial art they practiced that until now has not surfaced; that has a traceable verifiable lineage down to at least a hundred years definitely did not influence the highly technical FMA - eskrima, arnis estokada that we see today. The Ilustrisimo system has an authentic lineage that dates back 200 years ago. Other Visayan systems may have an even older pedigree. You see, all of the systems named Kali, trace back their lineage to the Visayan region and not to Muslim Mindanao.  How can you reconcile with that? The crux of this debate is not the name Kali per se...it's the claim that Kali is the mother of eskrima, arnis. Eskrima, arnis, estokada is a cultural heritage of the Cebuanos, Ilonggos, and Pampangos, anyone serious about the FMA should respect that!   wink  

Let's stop mumbling about "TRUE" agenda, demonizing Moros, neither are there any racial undertones in this thread!  there's none! Let's stick to the issue, show us a Moro warrior that can trace his lineage 200 years back. It's that simple, no need to over intellectualize.

Moreover, it's not my agenda to deprecate the Moro people, their culture and arts, frankly I believe they deserve a homeland...but that's a way bit off the topic here. wink Cheers!
Logged
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #227 on: May 22, 2005, 01:26:28 PM »

Quote from: antoy

Okay, okay, just spoofing the most abused title in the FMA ...and I agree that the title grandmaster is a recent adaptation modelled after the Chinese and Japanese martial arts ranking. SO, let me rephrase the question...Where's the Moro Kali expert? Where are the Kali schools in Mindanao?


I've already answered this 'kali' question within the pages of the thread.

My perspective is not that Kali is the 'mother art'. My perspective is that systemized teaching and the use of the blade for survival are two different subjects.

And again, the Moro FMA expert is found in our history books. You can see their filed teeth and blades in old photos.

In fact, if you look at old photos of some Moros posing, you will definitely see they have a martial art based on effective techniques, not learned from 'schools/dojos' but life. In the book on the Kris by Cato, there's a great photo of two Moros posing in the early 1900's. One is checking the other with their sword sheath! Now that's not someone who just charges and cuts without thought.

Quote from: antoy

It's not a question of demonizing the Moro fighting prowess, no martial artist in his right mind will question that!  


Your quoted source seems to simplify the Moro's fighting prowess by stating that the Moros wielded blades without much technique. I would disagree. Anything effective is viable technique.

Systemization of a person's movement is NOT the same as lacking technique.

For example, any MA instructor who has been trained to understand concepts of fighting can take anyone's fighting movement and create a system of MA. I believe most if not all Arnis and Eskrima instructors have done this Western styled process. Just because no one has done so for a Moro does not mean a MARTIAL art does not exist.

As you stated, your criteria is based on ORGANIZED FMA... well, based on other culture's MAs .. many FMA do not meet their standards of what ORGANIZED is.

Quote from: antoy

The issue is - whatever martial art they practiced that until now has not surfaced; that has a traceable verifiable lineage down to at least a hundred years definitely did not influence the highly technical FMA - eskrima, arnis estokada that we see today.


I disagree, Moro martial lineage is found in history books and records of their battles. Unless, what you're seeking is a curriculum and ranking based on other culture's standards.

 
Quote from: antoy
The Ilustrisimo system has an authentic lineage that dates back 200 years ago. Other Visayan systems may have an even older pedigree. You see, all of the systems named Kali, trace back their lineage to the Visayan region and not to Muslim Mindanao.  How can you reconcile with that? The crux of this debate is not the name Kali per se...it's the claim that Kali is the mother of eskrima, arnis. Eskrima, arnis, estokada is a cultural heritage of the Cebuanos, Ilonggos, and Pampangos, anyone serious about the FMA should respect that!   wink  


I do not disagree with you about the cultural heritage of other Filipinos, but to exclude the Muslim's contribution in shaping the way these other Filipinos fought is really a wonderful way to shoot oneself in the foot.

You have a quote from someone who tries to invalidate the Moro fighting prowess by stating all they do is charge, cut and slash, yet you claim that there's no agenda.


Quote from: antoy
Let's stick to the issue, show us a Moro warrior that can trace his lineage 200 years back. It's that simple, no need to over intellectualize.


Nice try.
Well, that is not the issue of this thread. That's an attempt to limit the discussion so that it suits the answer you already accept. That's like saying, "Everyone acknowledges that Moros are GREAT swimmers. So great that everyone was shocked at their prowess. However since Moros do not have a school of swimming, and do not have accredited swimming instructors that means they should not be credited for Filipino swimming."
It might work if we only live in a world of sanctions, clubs, competitions  and certificates. And let's not be coy or naive enough to think that this does not also pertain to marketing.


Whether you realize it or not, you're asking for a Moro that studied under Western, Chinese or Japanese martial art standards of rank and system. Or a Moro that follows other Filipinos' standards of teaching and systemization. Here's the main part... these other Filipinos probably shaped their system of fighting by using outside influences of structure. There's nothing wrong with that.

However, to state that is the only way to recognize that one has a martial art is ignoring the obvious:

Everyone knows Moros can, and did fight with a blade... well.

Igorots have a martial art as well, they don't have certificates but they had heads aligning their huts.

That is FILIPINO Martial Arts.

Once you discredit their legacy by forcing them into standards created by others, you are dangerously watering down what appealed to outside cultures to begin with - Effectiveness of their combative mindset.

Quote from: antoy
Moreover, it's not my agenda to deprecate the Moro people, their culture and arts, frankly I believe they deserve a homeland...but that's a way bit off the topic here. wink Cheers!


Well and good. I'm just pointing out the bigger picture to you. FMA is not one tribe's... it is the history of the islands and ALL our ancestors. There's many excellent Eskrima and Arnis Filipino instructors, they are PART of the legacy but they do not have sole claim to Filipino martial history.

Again, we need to learn the lessons of a Divided and Conquered mentality.

Btw, is there a Musashi samurai school?
Is there a Macedonian Martial Arts Seminar anywhere?
How about el - Tawil's scimitar sparring class?

Based on your limited criteria, these great warriors never had a REAL martial art.

--Rafael--
Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
antoy
Newbie
*
Posts: 7


« Reply #228 on: May 23, 2005, 04:41:35 AM »

Quote from: Sun_Helmet
Quote from: antoy


That is FILIPINO Martial Arts.

Once you discredit their legacy by forcing them into standards created by others, you are dangerously watering down what appealed to outside cultures to begin with - Effectiveness of their combative mindset.

Quote from: antoy
Moreover, it's not my agenda to deprecate the Moro people, their culture and arts, frankly I believe they deserve a homeland...but that's a way bit off the topic here. wink Cheers!


Well and good. I'm just pointing out the bigger picture to you. FMA is not one tribe's... it is the history of the islands and ALL our ancestors. There's many excellent Eskrima and Arnis Filipino instructors, they are PART of the legacy but they do not have sole claim to Filipino martial history.

Again, we need to learn the lessons of a Divided and Conquered mentality.

Btw, is there a Musashi samurai school?
Is there a Macedonian Martial Arts Seminar anywhere?
How about el - Tawil's scimitar sparring class?

Based on your limited criteria, these great warriors never had a REAL martial art.

--Rafael--

Yes... no argument on the  foregoing    .... and let me add, there's no Sitting Bull Dojo, or a Geronimo Martial Arts Institute, or Egil Skalagrimsson Sword School!.. Musashi comes from the Niten-Ichi Ryu Dojo, yes but he did not systematize his system which was considered unorthodox during his era.

 cry You got me wrong, I stated clearly that whatever MARTIAL ART they practiced, it did not have any influence on modern day eskrima, neither is their proof that it is the so-called mother art Kali.   It would be foolish to assume they did not have a martial art, let's say for the sake of argument that they may only have a few slashes, cuts and thrusts...nonetheless it is still a martial art by any standard!  it may not be as systematized as the FMA and the Chinese and the Japanese arts.

Even, Olympic style fencing many European martial arts enthusiasts argue is no longer related to Renaissance rapier fencing, which probably became extinct by the turn of the 18th century.  

And I have no argument either that the FMA is the legacy of the entire Filipino people not just a few select tribes.  What i found atrocious is that a lot of the FMA in the U.S. seem to mislead everyone by solely giving credit to the Moro people for the FMA, you can see instructors and guros in full Moro regalia, and it's all over the internet.  I hope you see my point here:?
Logged
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #229 on: May 23, 2005, 10:59:07 AM »

Quote from: antoy

 cry You got me wrong, I stated clearly that whatever MARTIAL ART they practiced, it did not have any influence on modern day eskrima, neither is their proof that it is the so-called mother art Kali.   It would be foolish to assume they did not have a martial art, let's say for the sake of argument that they may only have a few slashes, cuts and thrusts...nonetheless it is still a martial art by any standard!


I don't belong to the thought that the Moros did not have ANY influence on modern day eskrima (although there's probably a whole other thread that could be focused on what 'modern day' eskrima is). If the Moros were the primary enemy of other tribes during the time of bladed warfare, then there is no way the other side can evolve in a vacuum. One has to be able to know the enemy, use what works and so on. Not understanding this mindset is not understanding the Filipino's talent to make anything useful their own. If we look at accounts of non Muslim Filipinos in battles, they too did the run, slash cut etc. because the way of tribal bladed warfare is fluidity not formations.

Quote from: antoy
it may not be as systematized as the FMA and the Chinese and the Japanese arts.


I do agree that the Moro methods of warfare is not the mother art of Kali (since I don't subscribe to that phrasing), but I disagree when you segregate Moro methods as if it is not FMA.

If one believes Moros are Filipino, and they have a martial art- then they are part of Filipino Martial Arts. Commercialization of the methods of combat is not my criteria of what a martial art is. And until Moros form their own country, they are Filipino.

Quote from: antoy

And I have no argument either that the FMA is the legacy of the entire Filipino people not just a few select tribes.  What i found atrocious is that a lot of the FMA in the U.S. seem to mislead everyone by solely giving credit to the Moro people for the FMA, you can see instructors and guros in full Moro regalia, and it's all over the internet.  I hope you see my point here:?


I see your point about appropriating Moro culture by itself.
In Sayoc Kali we use different images of Filipino warriors in our logos and visual material. Although we have Moro inspired images, we also have Kalinga, Tagal, Igorot etc. influences in the visuals. The point from our POV is we focus on the fighting spirit and legacy of the Filipino... inspirational,  NOT the imitation and supposed teaching of Moro warfare methods (if that is what you mean by instructors wearing the regalia etc.)

In addition, Sayoc Kali strives to constantly evolve so terminology and teaching methods are crossovers from many cultures and studies. We've had internet critics state that what we teach isn't even FMA because we do not use Filipino terminology, which is the same language trap all over again.

--Rafael--
Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #230 on: May 24, 2005, 12:44:21 PM »

antoy: if you read from the very beginning of this thread (like i have--it only takes maybe 2 hours, if you're a slow reader like me) all of what you have said has already been discuss.  old news...

rafael (or anyone who knows of the illustrisimo style): have you heard of these names in the article? (Solferino Borinaga of Pilar, Camotes and the Sabanal saga beginning with the story of the early pioneer of Moalboal Laurente "Laguno" Sabanal down to the living heirs of his son Pablo "Amboy Kidlat" Sabanal).

The only living master of Kapitan Perong?s system called Repikada Pegada Eskrima is Yuly Romo who teaches the style as supplementary lessons to Ka?li Ilustrisimo. He inherited the system from his uncle Tatay Anas Romo who acquired it from Emong Urias of Guindulman, Bohol. Emong Urias and his paisano (compatriot) Pedro Cortez once taught close quarters techniques to the late GM Antonio Ilustrisimo.
Logged
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #231 on: September 16, 2005, 01:20:20 PM »

http://www.cebueskrima.s5.com/custom3.html

There is a map if you scroll down the link that is very interesting, and very relevant to the statements below.

Quote from: Guest
Quote from: Leo Gaje Jr.
When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival...


Quote from: Romy Macapagal
Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book.


man, this is some serious propaganda campaign!!!
Logged
Mike Brewer
Newbie
*
Posts: 2


« Reply #232 on: September 16, 2005, 01:46:29 PM »

I've debated this type of thing at length with a number of folks, including some of my instructors.  I am of the humble opinion that you can go ahead and call a person whatever he or she feels most like being called.  As far as titles or terminology or technique?  It's purely a semantic debate.  

When karate people refer to their techniques by the Japanese name, or they count in japanese, where did they get the habit?  From seeing the way their arts were taught in Japan, right?  Well, guess what?  In Japan, they speak Japanese!  If they spoke enlish, you'd most likely hear them say "One, Two, Three" instead of "Ichi, Ni, San!"

Same with Chinese, Filipino, Malaysian, Indonesian, etc. etc. etc.  If you want to preserve that part of the art for the sake of preserving it, then great.  But terminology is far more important to the scholar than the fighter.  Fighters can plainly see what you're doing, and they care far less what you call it than how well it works.  It might have been a pin choy, a reverse punch, an "elephant's head" (or some other equally cryptic code), or just a simple cross.  In the end, what happened was a guy smacked another guy with the front part of his closed fist and either the fella went down or he didn't.

Same with teachers.  If a teacher asks to be called a certain thing, that's like a name.  But if he or she is relying on the presumed respect of a title like grandmaster-poobah or some such rather than relying on his/her ability to teach?  That's just junk.  The way I see it, those instructors who were most concerned with developing functional fighting ability and being effective teachers generally care the very least about their titles.  Those who are into the arts for personal esteem make it a bigger deal.  I can't remember a time when I heard a decorated soldier demand that civilians refer to them by rank, or a time when someone like muhammad Ali asked that the public please refer to him as the Grandmaster of Boxing.  I'd have to guess that the Filipino greats are much the same way about it.

Just my two cents...

Mike
Logged

Nature is ruled by the redness of fang and claw

-Ernest Hemingway
Mike Brewer
Newbie
*
Posts: 2


« Reply #233 on: September 16, 2005, 01:48:59 PM »

One last thing here...

I just read Sun Helmet's post, and I have to agree.  Teach your audience - the people who are sitting right there in front of you.  If it's easier for them to understand ancient sanskrit and tagalog, then use those terms.  However, if it's a bunch of english speaking americans, speaking english may well be easier to understand...
Logged

Nature is ruled by the redness of fang and claw

-Ernest Hemingway
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #234 on: September 16, 2005, 01:55:54 PM »

I don't understand, was that response for the map I was referring to in the website?
Logged
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #235 on: September 16, 2005, 01:59:38 PM »

Quote from: Mike Brewer
I've debated this type of thing at length with a number of folks, including some of my instructors.  I am of the humble opinion that you can go ahead and call a person whatever he or she feels most like being called.  As far as titles or terminology or technique?  It's purely a semantic debate.  


What other type of debate would it be?

I think what people are discussing here is whether a word is authentic (as claimed), so it's a discussion about history, terminology, and semantics-- nothing more.
Logged
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #236 on: September 18, 2005, 01:54:49 PM »

From the linked article:

"4.)? The role of the warrior Jesuit priests that accompanied De Chavez?s expeditionary force. They also taught orasciones to the Christianized Cebuano natives during the long boat trip to Zamboanga. Thus orascion became an integral ritual among eskrimadors. "


This is UNTRUE in terms of these specific Jesuit Priests being WARRIORS. The statement above implies the Jesuits were fighting side by side with De Chavez's soldiers. If the soldiers were to read that today they would be spinning in their morions. I could believe them teaching orasciones to the natives, but there's no evidence of these two being warriors. The Spanish records of the JESUIT order themselves contradict this.

They were NOT warrior Jesuit Priests, because the Jesuits kept records of the Frays that accompanied the expedition AND the actual commentary by the Spanish soldiers who were ON that very Zamboanga expedition STATED so!

The De Chavez Zamboanga expedition was on April 6, 1635.
The two Jesuits friars who accompanied the De Chavez expedition were Pedro Guiterrez, the founder of Dapitan, and Melchor de Vera, who started the mission forts in Leyte.

"They (Jesuit Friars on the De Chavez expedition) were NOT very popular. Many of the (Spanish)  officers and men had no stomach for the enterprise, which took them far away from Manila and too CLOSE to the Moros." page 325

The Spanish soldiers were to build a fort in that area, but had questions on how to supply it with water. There was much grumbling because De Chavez put the Jesuit friar, Melchor de Vera in charge of construction. The Jesuits were more like foremen who assisted the engineers in finding a workable quarry of good adobe stone and a spring for a water source.

There was NO fighting involved, just plain BUILDING. The Jesuits were labeled as INQUISITIVE to the dismay of the Spanish who had to appease their new foreman.

Quoted from the book 'JESUITS IN THE PHILIPPINES' (  the actual records of the Jesuits from 1581- 1768):
One of the disgruntled soldiers had half a mind to stop the inquisitive Jesuit from making any further discoveries, muttering that he would much rather "put two bullets in this priest than Corralat (Kachil Kudarat)" page 326, Jesuits in the Philippines

These two Jesuits did chaplain work (that is recorded).
Friar de Vera's was on board with a Friar Armano on a separate expedition against DUTCH forces to  exhort and hear confessions of Spaniards and natives in the armada. The Spanish did not need any warrior friars because this expedition carried 2000 Spanish tercios and uncounted natives. No record of these Jesuits fighting at all. Other Jesuits were sent into the galleys to calm the chained "wretched" for the ordeal.

De Vega was again in Zamboanga but not with Chavez, it was during Corcuera's expedition and the friar was sent to ratify a peace treaty with Kudarat's followers, AFTER the battle had already finished.

There is no record of these specific friars actually taking up the sword against the Moros. Their job was to organize and spread Christian teachings, act as chaplains and assist in treaties/communication.

Beyond that is all unsubstantiated speculation.

--Rafael--
Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #237 on: September 19, 2005, 08:24:59 AM »

A WARRIOR Jesuit Priest ('warrior' meaning actively engaged in the use of arms and fought in actual battles) was an EXTREME exception as recorded in the accounts of the Jesuits in the Philippines. To refer to these specific Jesuits above as Warriors is a distortion of first hand accounts.

There's only ONE Jesuit Priest I have found who fit the description of a warrior priest in the Moro campaigns. Out of the list of hundreds of Jesuits on record, a WARRIOR Jesuit Priest ('warrior' meaning actively engaged in the use of arms and fought in actual battles) was an EXTREME exception as recorded in the accounts of the Jesuits in the Philippines. To refer to these specific Jesuist above as Warriors is a distortion of first hand accounts.

He was the "famous Recollect missionary" at Butuan. The Jesuits record (1639) that this priest DISTINGUISHED himself from the others because he was a warrior. He was "El Padre Capitan" Fray Augustin San Pedro.

However, to use one Jesuit priest's accomplishments in war to reflect that other Jesuits were of like mind and spirit is a distortion of their accomplishments in the islands.

Some have implied that these warrior priests taught these natives the arts of Spanish war, ironically the ONE priest recorded as having done so taught natives from BUTUAN located in MINDANAO, not the Visayan region.

--Rafael--
Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #238 on: September 19, 2005, 06:49:43 PM »

Thanks! Rafael...

Could you provide a bibliography of sorts, a short list of the books related to the Jesuits in the Filipines, and where we might find these books (or websites).
Logged
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #239 on: September 20, 2005, 04:01:00 PM »

Quote from: joewambaugh
Thanks! Rafael...
Could you provide a bibliography of sorts, a short list of the books related to the Jesuits in the Filipines, and where we might find these books (or websites).


The best one IMO, 'JESUITS IN THE PHILIPPINES' (which were the actual records of the Jesuits from 1581- 1768) Harvard University Press. It even has a list of EVERY Jesuit who was recorded to have been on the islands, and if they have it on record, the date of death and how. It can run you from $50 - 300.00!

There's mention here and there in other books. Blair and Robertson has some, Morga's book has some... but the books do not focus entirely on the Jesuits nor go into detail like the above book. There's Filipino authored books, but again that would be from the other side's POV and one that has some accounts is The Kris In Mindanao History.

I wouldn't go by SWISH OF THE KRIS by Hurley neither, because I have also found inaccuracies in that book. He started the whole "Sword/Cross" thing that has been taken literally by some.

--Rafael--
Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #240 on: December 20, 2005, 06:46:13 PM »

Below is an example of how semantics, ignorance of history, and self promotion, creates confusion in FMA.

1. FMA did not originate in Cebu.

2. There is no historical source that references a "Datu Mangal" to a "PAKAMUT" form of fighting in the Philippines.

3.  During the time of Lapu Lapu, as well as his father's generation, the Sri Visayan empire had long been gone.  Although, Islam was found in Cebu, during Magellan's arrival.

4.  The Sri Vishayan Empire was Hindu, not Malay.

5.  The Battle of Mactan was about Magellan's hubris, not superior martial arts.  Magellan and a handful of his men stuck in the mud off Mactan, being butchered by hundreds of Lapu Lapu's men, can hardly be called a battle.  It was a massacre.

6.  Lapu Lapu killed Magellan because he knew Magellan was going to kill him as part of Magellan's pact with Lapu Lapu's enemy Datu Humabon.  Lapu Lapu killed Magellan out of survival, not some abstract notion of geo politics.

7.  No one's ever heard of PAKAMUT.

(Parallel to Kali, mis-information, renaming and misrepresentation of Philippine history)




http://www.pfletch.com/pakamut/


The Filipino Martial Arts originated in the Cebu Province of Central Philippines. It is believed that Datu Mangal, the father of Datu Lapu-Lapu, brought the art of stick fighting called PAKAMUT to the Philippine Islands. Datu Mangal was once a leader of the famous Sri Visayan Empire. The powerful Empire of Malay.

The Filipino Fighting Art was tested during the famous Battle of Mactan, an island in the Cebu Province, on April 27, 1521. This destined battle was between the infamous circumnavigator, Ferdinand Magellan and his warriors, against the local native fighters lead by Datu Lapu-Lapu. Datu Lapu-Lapu, the first Pilipino hero, rejected submission to foreign power and refused to bow and give allegiance to the King of Spain.

During the Battle of Mactan, Ferdinand Magellan and his warriors, equipped with muskets and experienced swordsmen, was no match against Datu Lapu-Lapu and his men, whom were experts in the native martial arts of PAKAMUT. Armed with ingenious weapons, such as fire hardened sticks called olisi, kampilan, pinuti, and other impact weapons, they were able to drive out their enemies.

During the Spanish Colonialization of the Philippines, the Martial Art of PAKAMUT was banned by the colonizers because they were fearful of the Filipino?s exceptional skills. Through the years of hidden training, this art is later called Eskrima Arnis Kali.
Logged
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #241 on: September 12, 2006, 05:16:58 PM »

There's been even more confussion to the term Kali to mean Scrape.  According to every Tagalog-English dictionary I've looked into,

Kali does mean to Scrape, but specifically it means to Scrape the Scales of Fishes.  Hope that clears it up somewhat. wink
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31210


« Reply #242 on: January 09, 2007, 10:03:04 PM »

As Top Dog and I used to say "As the Stick Twirls"

http://sunkete.blogspot.com:80/index.html
Logged
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #243 on: January 10, 2007, 08:49:38 PM »

As Top Dog and I used to say "As the Stick Twirls"

http://sunkete.blogspot.com:80/index.html

LOL... the writer is making some easy logical gaps in his reasoning. Last I saw on youtube, Yuli Romo was not brandishing a rapier but a kampilan.

The writer then states the Visayans use a weapon that was similar to a (drumroll).... Moro blade.

"Kapitan Perong brandishing his lampirong (Visayan version of Moro barong blade) would "horse" mount at the tip of the bundled bamboo poles and upon his signal to cut loose the harness would be propelled several feet above the air flying like superman with the trajectory precisely aimed at the incoming paraos (Moro sailboats)."

So the Kapitan was using a similar Moro weapon, but the Moro side does not know how to use it because the Spanish didn't show them how? The Moros knew to forge and design a weapon so well, that the Visayans chose to ignore their subjugator's sword of choice and UNANIMOUSLY decided to use their enemy's sword instead. Interesting.

Why are they still using barongs and kampilans? If it is a rapier why not use a rapier? They are easy to forge as any barong, kris or kampilan.

Add to the fact that I'd like to see a full grown man catapulted into the air and land softly on a sailboat's sails without going over, with panicked occupants on the boat, and carrying a blade THEN killing EVERYONE on board. Maybe Errol Flynn on a huge galleon's sails....

So this obvious MYTH the writer believes?

I suppose in this person's logic bubble, Moros are not Filipinos, and that unless a Cebuano was wielding a blade and counting in Spanish it isn't part of any "Martial Art".

I'd like to have seen this writer tell the Moros of old that they didn't have a martial art.
I doubt they would call them on a cell phone to let them know.

He is also singing the Fighting Friar tune again, even though the examples have already been debunked.

Consider this:

In 1836, William Barret Travis wrote a letter to the "people of Texas and all Americans in the world" from the Alamo describing that the "the garrison
are to be put to the SWORD" by over a thousand Mexicans under General Santa Anna.

Let's look at this description.
Travis uses the term "Sword" to describe the upcoming conflict.
However, at this time, the Mexican army surrounded and overwhelmed the Alamo volunteers with cannon fire and rifles with bayonets.
The Mexicans who were under Spanish rule for many years won their independence and utilized the arms that Spain had left behind.
In addition, the Mexicans bought a large number of British arms to supplement as far back as the 1820's.
From historical evidence, the Mexican infantry man was armed with "the India Pattern musket, a 39 inch barrel of .752-.760 caliber. It weighed nine pounds, eleven ounces and came with a seventeen inch socket bayonet that itself weighed one pound."

The Mexican light infantry men called Cazadores were armed with lighter muskets (Tercerlos), others carried Baker rifles armed with the 23 inch bayonet. Although firing with the bayonet attached proved the rifles useless. "These (bayonets) were very handy for camp chores, but because it added weight to the end of the gun barrel, it was seldom mounted and rarely seen in hand-to-hand combat." The Cazadores were better trained in marksmanship and tactics than the average soldier.

Now consider these facts :
1. By the 1800's, Mexicans who would have had the closest cross training to Spanish methods of war had already transitioned to the rifles.
2. The bayonet on the rifles extended the weapon's length far enough to simulate a short pike. The preferred Spanish weapon of choice.
3. The Mexicans did not storm the Alamo with machetes.
4. The year of transition started in 1820's, during the time these fictional fighting friars were supposedly teaching our "untrained" natives on the Spanish OUTDATED tactics of warfare... the sword.
5. The term "sword" did not literally mean that the tactics were going to be with a sword.
6. At the Alamo, the one man known for his skills with the blade was James Bowie and many accounts state he had several primed pistols at his side, and he had taken ill by the time of the battle so was not directly influential.

Now knowing the nature of Filipinos and a bit about what was happening during these times... doesn't it poke several large holes in the logic that the Spanish friars taught the Filipinos how to use a weapon that not only the Spanish considered an outmoded weapon, but countries Spain subjugated thought so as well?

If we go by the linked writer's logic, The Mexicans would have stormed the Alamo with their Spanish trained rapier skills... except the Mexicans would not use actual rapiers but their indigenous Aztec war clubs. Maybe even use catapults to fly over the walls.

Remember the Alamo indeed.

(note: the reference on the weapons used in the Alamo was appropriated from the TAMU website.)

« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 09:32:01 PM by Sun_Helmet » Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #244 on: January 10, 2007, 09:15:25 PM »

5.  The Battle of Mactan was about Magellan's hubris, not superior martial arts.  Magellan and a handful of his men stuck in the mud off Mactan, being butchered by hundreds of Lapu Lapu's men, can hardly be called a battle.  It was a massacre.

I agree with all the above except one detail. Magellan had an equal number of allies right off the shore that he decided not to use. So it was a battle of tactics. Lapu Lapu could have easily sent his men wading out after Magellan and been stranded to get picked off by Humabon's men or the cannons.

At no time did Lapu Lapu know when Humabon would come ashore, nor did he know how the ship's men felt about Magellan (some didn't like him). So credit is given to Lapu Lapu beyond mere numerical superiority. Pigafetta even stated Lapu Lapu's men were in specific formations that reacted well against their firearms.

There were EQUAL numbers there at the site, the Spanish even had superior weapons. Bad tactics created the massacre, the same as good tactics worked for the Spanish in South America.

The fault was mainly tactical. Lapu Lapu did all the right things. He even had men to intercept Magellan's ploy to torch the village.

Sound tactics is Martial Arts.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 09:19:10 PM by Sun_Helmet » Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31210


« Reply #245 on: April 14, 2007, 09:04:48 AM »

The following was posted on the Eskrima Digest-- please do not infer an opinion on my part!
===================================

I am very excited to announce that a book called "CEBUANO ESKRIMA: Beyond
the myth" written by Ned R. Nepangue, M.D. and Celestino C. Macachor. Here
is a brief synopsis:

  * Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth boldly unravels with compelling and
    provocative hypothesis on the Hispanic origins of the Filipino
    Martial Arts known as eskrima, arnis and estokada

      * The last vestiges of the extinct European medieval fencing could
        be found indirectly linked to Filipino eskrima

          * The authors present prima facie evidence on the fraud of the
            supposedly precursor art called kali

              * A more plausible theory on the origins of eskrima are
                presented in startling detail from its early beginnings
                as a defense against Moro pirates and slave traders and
                its later fusion with Spanish fencing through the Jesuit
                warrior priests during the pivotal years 1635-1644, the
                height of Spanish rapier fencing in Europe during the
                Renaissance

                  * It also presents a comprehensive chronology on the
                    development of eskrima in Cebu, a meticulous
                    commentary of Cebuano pioneers and innovators of
                    eskrima and elucidates the pre-eminence of Visayans
                    in the art of eskrima / arnis / estokada

                      * As both authors are practitioners of this martial
                        art, technicalities in eskrima never before
                        detailed in other materials on the subject are
                        carefully discussed in the book

                          * Other interesting topics related to eskrima
                            like the esoteric practices and healing
                            modalities are also explained in fascinating
                            detail.

                        If you are interested feel free to email me at
                        decampousa@hotmail.com and will send the details
                        to you. Thank you. Respectfully,Jason AutajayLos
                        Angeles Chapter, United States Eskrima De Campo
                        JDC-IOwww.EskrimaDeCampo.com
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31210


« Reply #246 on: May 01, 2007, 08:53:47 AM »

Two posts from today's Eskrima Digest:

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: ken jo <kenjo73@yahoo.com>
To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: kali
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

greetings!

I respect the opinions and some of the facts and
stories that Mr. Celestino C. Macachor and Ned
Nepangue M.D. presented in their individual papers
though this does not necessarily mean that I agree
with them..

in mindanao, the land where i was born, where i grew
up and the land that i love, we have friends among the
Muslims and they have informed us that the TAUSUG term
for their bladed weapons is indeed KALIS. (fyi: the
TAUSUGs are the most feared warrior tribe among Muslim
Filipinos - Nur Misuari, ARMM Governor Parouk Hussin
and Basilan Governor Wahab Akbar are some of the
noteworthy Tausug personalities). Most of the Tausugs
are based in Basilan, Sulu and Tawi-tawi.

In the Philippine military/para-military [Armed Forces
of the Philippines, ROTC, CMT/CAT, etc.], the term for
the ceremonial saber or any other bladed weapon/sword
is KALIS.. [Saludo Kalis! (Salute with the
Sword/Saber!)- or words to that effect..]

[[fyi: Placido Yambao wrote Mga Karunungan sa Larung
Arnis in 1957 - first book dedicated to the history
and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA).

According to Bot Jocano (2004): "It is probably this
book that is the source of many of the history
sections of most arnis books available in the market
today. This material is found in the chapter entitled
"Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis" and what was written by
Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book.

Mirafuente states that arnis was first known as KALI
during the early years of the Spanish conquest.

In particular, mention is made of the arrival of
Miguel Lopez de Legazpi in 1564 and how he was greeted
with demonstrations of the art by the local datu or
chieftains and their followers. Legazpi's reaction to
those demonstrations is presented in the following:

Sa gayon ay nawika ni Legazpi sa sarili na "ang KALI
ay hindi lamang larong libangan at pangpalipas ng
panahon kundi isang mabising sining ng pagtanggol sa
sarili sa larangan ng digmaan" (p.10)

(Consequently, Legazpi said to himself "KALI is not
only a game and a measure of passing time but also an
effective art of self-protection in the realm of
warfare".)" ]]

about that book  and its author - the controversial
piece "Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis" (actually an
introduction) was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente,
the editor of the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larung
Arnis" by Placido Yambao published in 1957. This was
the first book dedicated to the history and practice
of the Filipino Martial Arts. You can access it at the
UP Diliman Library..

now as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that
would be the subject of debates - but it would seem
logical to assume that the use of that word has been
in existence long before the publishing of the book -
as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the
making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in
existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++
years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and
technical about it, then the published word KALI is at
least 50 years old this year.

ang matagal ko nang gustong itanong noon pa.. ano po
ba ang istilo ni manong mirafuente at manong yambao
noon at pumayag sila na bigyan pansin ang
terminolohiyang "kali" sa panahong 1957? --

sa japan kasi, 1936 lang naging "official Japanese
term" yung word na karate -- to cite (got this
somewhere):

In 1936, at nearly 70 years of age, Funakoshi Gichin
opened his own training hall. The decision of
Funakoshi Gichin to change the kanji used for writing
the name of the art - "karate" was confirmed at the
so-called "Meeting of the Masters", which included
Chojun Miyagi, Chomo Hanashiro, Kentsu Yabu, Chotoku
Kyan, Genwa Nakasone, Choshin Chibana, Choryo Maeshiro
and Shinpan Shiroma.

Gichin did this to get karate accepted by the Japanese
budo organisation Dai Nippon Butokukai . In a time of
rising Japanese nationalism (Japan was occupying
China), Funakoshi knew that a 'foreign' art would not
be accepted. Thus this body agreed to change the
original kanji which meant "Tang hand" from the
Chinese Tang dynasty or by extension, "Chinese hand" -
reflecting the Chinese influence on the style to the
current way of writing which means "empty hand" -
karate-do - thus meaning "the way of the empty hand."

..anyway just curious if this had an effect on how our
early manongs viewed the word "kali".. peace to all!
================================
From: Pananandta@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:20:16 EDT
To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5
 msgs)
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

I wrote an article on the origin of the word kali in the June 2005 issue of 
Inside Kungfu. In my article I traced the origin of the word kalisin to kali. 
However, James Sy said the word kalisin has nothing to do with the FMA.
 
I would not fault Mr. Sy for not knowing the relationship between the two 
words. Even heads of systems such as Ben Largusa  couldn't explain the  origin
of the word kali. Chris (Sayoc Kali) couldn't explain it either. So  does Kali
Illustrisimo. None among those who use the word kali as part of  their
system's name could explain the word kali. They had at best theories that  does not
do anything but wing an explanation.
 
I did some research on the origin of Tagalog words - about 15 years at the 
big public library in Manhattan (NY). I pored through Sanskrit and Indian 
dictionaries to find which among the Tagalog words that I knew originated  from
Sanskrit. I found quite a few. (Indeed, a book was written on Tagalog and 
Sanskrit words back in 1898.)
 
Perhaps, it would help if I explain the relations between kalisin (meaning 
to scrape) and the word/fighting art kali.
 
Mr. Sy did a direct Tagalog to English translation. A direct translation is 
usually off the mark because something is lost in between. In his case, Mr. Sy
 couldn't see the relationship. Here is the relationship.
 
When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to remove (scrape) layers  of
defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. This  should be
explanation enough.
 
Mr. Sy mentioned a few names of teachers in his email.
 
I was a former professor and board reviewer in Chemical Engineering at 
Adamson University in Manila from 1963 to 1973. Tagalog is my dialect. I speak 
both literary and contemporary Tagalog.
 
Best regards to all EDer's
 
APMarinas Sr.
 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 11:48:06 AM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31210


« Reply #247 on: May 02, 2007, 07:06:37 AM »

Another post from the ED:

Tue, 1 May 2007 23:29:59 -0400
From: bgdebuque <bgdebuque@gmail.com>
To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

I think you are on the right track.

It appears that the ancient martial art from South India of Kalaripayattu
have spawned several martial arts-based performing arts, all of which have
"kali" affixed to it - KOLKALI, VELAKALI, THACHOLIKALI and KATHAKALI.

KOLKALI is particularly interesting.  According to Wikipedia:  "The dance
performers move in a circle, striking small sticks and keeping rhythm with
special steps. The circle expands and contracts as the dance progress."

Kalaripayattu is now highly-suspected as the possible origin of Shaolin Kung
Fu.  It would not be highly remote that it could also be the origin of the
FMA.  If that is really the case, the use of "Kali" to refer to the FMA
would not be without basis at all.


Logged
Sun_Helmet
Power User
***
Posts: 84


« Reply #248 on: May 07, 2007, 01:55:05 PM »

The oldest recorded term for the Filipino's "fighting style" was...

"kampilan"

Antonio Pigafetta used other words in his glossary to describe other blades, but the only word he isolated to describe a fighting style was "kampilan". Many know kampilan is a type of blade, and so is a kalis, but it is also right there in the Magellan documents as the native's fighting style. That's 1500's which supercedes the mid 1800's "arnes".

So if all the FMA academics want to debate over the oldest recorded written term that specifically describes Filipino tribal methods of fighting, "kampilan" beats "arnis" and "kali" by three hundred years.

If their convictions are so intent in going back to the OLDEST recorded FMA term, then forget "arnis, eskrima and kali" use Kampilan.
Is Kampilan the Mother art?

As for Manong Marinas recollection of Tuhon Sayoc's definition of the ORIGIN of the term kali, please note that Tuhon Sayoc only started using the word "Kali" in the early 80's to differentiate the edged weapons from the stick curriculum found in the Sayoc Fighting System, now called Sayoc Kali - Silak. Sayoc Kali does not ascribe to the "Mother Art" explanation. As Manong Marinas was Tuhon Chris' elder and considered one of the FMA masters who also taught at the Sayoc household - he would defer to Manong Marinas' recollection at that time.

As for the Indian link, one just has to observe the movements of the Indian practitioners to note there is as much influence of India as there is to Spanish and Chinese movements in FMA.

--Rafael--

Sayoc Kali
Logged

--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
joewambaugh
Newbie
*
Posts: 25


« Reply #249 on: September 12, 2007, 03:24:06 PM »

Has anyone read this book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth?
It is suppose to be a continuation of this very thread.
There are some pages available on http://books.google.com/
I wanted to hear from anyone who has read it before buying it on Amazon.

Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!