Dog Brothers Public Forum
Return To Homepage
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 27, 2014, 03:46:29 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the Dog Brothers Public Forum.
83448 Posts in 2260 Topics by 1067 Members
Latest Member: Shinobi Dog
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  Dog Brothers Public Forum
|-+  DBMA Martial Arts Forum
| |-+  Martial Arts Topics
| | |-+  the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 Print
Author Topic: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")  (Read 124436 times)
filipino_boxers
Guest
« Reply #150 on: April 12, 2004, 02:23:14 PM »

This is a very interesting subject...

I just got done reading "Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo", about Antonio Ilustrisimo from Bantayan Island, Cebu, there's a very interesting claim they make in the book that might be related to Kali.  

Antonio Ilustrisimo was one of the uncles of Floro Villabrile who taught him Eskrima in the 1920s.  It seems that Antonio Ilustrisimo has never heard of this term Kali, and goes on to say that Villabrile never really had any other teachers but his family.  There was no "blind princess of Samar".

The Villabrile/Largusa school was one of the first ones here in the US to promote Kali as the original martial art of the Filipinos (please, correct me if i'm wrong here).  Maybe, this school introduced Kali to the rest of California, from Hawaii.  Dan Inosanto was introduced to this term, and so were the Stockton masters, who maybe just "went along" with it (since most of them were from Cebu or their art originated from Cebu, and no one uses Kali in Cebu).

Hence Kali is more popular in the US, while Filipino connection to this word is really difficult to prove.  Just a theory....

(of course, this whole theory will fall apart if there were others anyone can trace, who used Kali as an original term for their art).

p.s.-- oh yeah, Sun Helmet, i finally got my copies of the old pinoy boxers footage and documentary.  great historical footage and action shots.  you can really see the difference in footwork.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #151 on: April 12, 2004, 03:19:55 PM »

Woof All:

Tuhon Rafael wrote:

"Crafty makes a good point... there's a nearly a decade long gap of written records concerning the next appearance of FMAs in the States. If there were American (caucasian) private students in 1951, they would be known or be discovered- at least an interest of how they developed would be found.

With written proof of the origin of the quote, it would at least shed some light on the matter. Is this gentleman still alive?"

END

If we figure that for the info to have made it to the Philippines and be published there in 1951, it seems probable to me that the date of  (rumored) publication of the US newsletter was probably in the 1940s.   What year do we use as the benchmark for the FMA going public in the US (would this be GM Angel Cabales?)  Thus we are looking at a probable 15-20 years as best as I can figure-- but please feel free to educate me better.

Also, I confess to being confused by the use of the word "quote" here.  To what does it refer?

yip,
Crafty
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #152 on: April 12, 2004, 05:39:15 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Woof All:

Tuhon Rafael wrote:

"Crafty makes a good point... there's a nearly a decade long gap of written records concerning the next appearance of FMAs in the States. If there were American (caucasian) private students in 1951, they would be known or be discovered- at least an interest of how they developed would be found.

With written proof of the origin of the quote, it would at least shed some light on the matter. Is this gentleman still alive?"

END

If we figure that for the info to have made it to the Philippines and be published there in 1951, it seems probable to me that the date of  (rumored) publication of the US newsletter was probably in the 1940s.   What year do we use as the benchmark for the FMA going public in the US (would this be GM Angel Cabales?)  Thus we are looking at a probable 15-20 years as best as I can figure-- but please feel free to educate me better.

Also, I confess to being confused by the use of the word "quote" here.  To what does it refer?

yip,
Crafty


but doesnt Cabales refer to his art as Serrada Escrima?

Which Stockton schools/masters refer to their arts as Kali?
Logged
filipino_boxers
Guest
« Reply #153 on: April 12, 2004, 09:56:35 PM »

Angel Cabales credits his Serrada Eskrima to Feliz? Dizon, from Cebu.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #154 on: April 12, 2004, 10:12:26 PM »

I think the relevance of GM Cabales here is not the name of his system but rather that he is considered to be the first to "go public" with the Art in the US (sometime in the 1960s--please correct me if I am wrong) and as such the date of his going public disputes, IMHO, the assertion that the mention of Kali in Yojimbo's book in 1951 in the Philippines was part of some "conspiracy" to market and condescend to caucasion Americans since we were not to know of the Art for some 15-20 years yet.
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #155 on: April 13, 2004, 12:03:36 AM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
I think the relevance of GM Cabales here is not the name of his system but rather that he is considered to be the first to "go public" with the Art in the US (sometime in the 1960s--please correct me if I am wrong) and as such the date of his going public disputes, IMHO, the assertion that the mention of Kali in Yojimbo's book in 1951 in the Philippines was part of some "conspiracy" to market and condescend to caucasion Americans since we were not to know of the Art for some 15-20 years yet.


sure, but to change the topic for a while. I'm just curious since Stockton has always been mentioned.

can someone please enumerate the different names that each school/master calls his own style -- eskrima or kali?

I can only find Ben Largusa as referring to Kali. Please enlighten me .
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #156 on: April 13, 2004, 12:11:21 AM »

Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
I think the relevance of GM Cabales here is not the name of his system but rather that he is considered to be the first to "go public" with the Art in the US (sometime in the 1960s--please correct me if I am wrong) and as such the date of his going public disputes, IMHO, the assertion that the mention of Kali in Yojimbo's book in 1951 in the Philippines was part of some "conspiracy" to market and condescend to caucasion Americans since we were not to know of the Art for some 15-20 years yet.


sure, but to change the topic for a while. I'm just curious since Stockton has always been mentioned.

can someone please enumerate the different names that each school/master calls his own style -- eskrima or kali?

I can only find Ben Largusa as referring to Kali. Please enlighten me .


Leo Giron from Northern Philippines refers to it as Arnis/Esrkima
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #157 on: April 13, 2004, 01:31:02 AM »

question:  

a person who practices escrima is an escrimador.

arnis is an arnisador.

what is the kali practioner called? i've read kalista and/or kaliman, but this is from pt kali.  was wondering if this is accurate?
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #158 on: April 13, 2004, 04:28:09 AM »

If I have it correctly, Maong Juan LaCoste used "Kali".


BTW, concerning Yambao http://www.bakbakan.com/ca-book.htm
Logged
filipino_boxers
Guest
« Reply #159 on: April 13, 2004, 11:41:22 AM »

Wasn't manong Juan LaCoste from Cebu?  If he was from Cebu and a Bisaya, this would be very interesting.  I'd also would want to know what part of Cebu he's from.  (other Cebuanos--contemporaries of LaCoste--are Antonio and Regino Ilustrisimo from northern Cebu, Teodoro Saavedra, and Islao Romo from central cebu, the Canetes from southern cebu, and Caballero of De Campo 1-2-3 in western cebu.  All use Eskrima, by the way, and have no knowledge of the term Kali).

Which other masters from stockton or california used Kali? and more importantly, which groups use Kali and how did they come to use this name?  So far, we only have as a definite, the Villabrille/Largusa Kali school.
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #160 on: April 13, 2004, 11:52:23 AM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
If I have it correctly, Maong Juan LaCoste used "Kali".


BTW, concerning Yambao http://www.bakbakan.com/ca-book.htm


perfect! the book comes out next month.  i'd like to see what the bakbakan/kalis ilustrisimo crowd say about yambao, since they are the more avid, intellectual proponents of anti-Kali in FMA to date.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #161 on: April 13, 2004, 01:27:49 PM »

Guro Inosanto has often spoken of Manong LaCoste being unusually well-travelled (including being a ferry captain IIRC) and diverse in his training.  Guro I. has specifically mentioned that he trained with muslims in the south and that this was very unusual.
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #162 on: April 13, 2004, 03:56:04 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Guro Inosanto has often spoken of Manong LaCoste being unusually well-travelled (including being a ferry captain IIRC) and diverse in his training.  Guro I. has specifically mentioned that he trained with muslims in the south and that this was very unusual.


The late Antonio Ilustrisimo who is related to some of the Stockton masters, who is a Cebuano himself (where alot of the Stockton group are from), also unusually travelled being a seaman himself (in fact he was also set for a blade match in Indonesia while his boat was docked), who also stayed in Tondo in Manila in the Port Area who had some of the Stockton people as his contemporaries, apparently never encountered the word "Kali" anywhere in his extensive travels.

If you have mentioned Manong LaCoste's training with the southern Muslims very unusual, then Antonio Ilustrisimo has further leverage by living as a Muslim, and being trained as a Muslim by Muslims (he was adopted by a Muslim when he got lost rowing his banca (boat) and ended up in Mindanao). Yet why has he never heard of the word "Kali"?

Are you implying that Kali is a southern Muslim term? Try going to the Southern most tip of Mindanao (Jolo where the Sultanate of Sulu is based and where Muslim culture is strongly preserved) and you will hear Kuntao , perhaps rarely Silat, but never will you hear "Kali".
Logged
filipino_boxers
Guest
« Reply #163 on: April 13, 2004, 06:34:09 PM »

Roland Dantes (a student of Presas and Sulite) once said that there were Muslims in Mindanao who used Kali, but never really said where.  But, there are more people from Mindanao who say they have never heard of Kali.

So, who else uses the term Kali, and have used it as the original name of their art?
Logged
SunHelmet
Guest
« Reply #164 on: April 14, 2004, 07:59:50 AM »

<<Also, I confess to being confused by the use of the word "quote" here. To what does it refer? >>

The Yambao book description of 'kali'... the gentleman I was refering to was the person who wrote that text which I believe was not Yambao but a contemporary.

Filipion Boxer- glad you ghot hold of the footage . I thought the rhythmic and body framing were also very different.

--Rafael--
-------
---------
-------
------
---------
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #165 on: April 14, 2004, 06:31:25 PM »

Quote from: SunHelmet
<<Also, I confess to being confused by the use of the word "quote" here. To what does it refer? >>

The Yambao book description of 'kali'... the gentleman I was refering to was the person who wrote that text which I believe was not Yambao but a contemporary.

Filipion Boxer- glad you ghot hold of the footage . I thought the rhythmic and body framing were also very different.

--Rafael--
-------
---------
-------
------
---------


You must be referring to the editor - Mirafuente
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #166 on: April 15, 2004, 10:04:24 AM »

There are a few rejoinders I still would like to make viz the responses to my prior post, but have not had time.  So until then this, from Ray Terry's Eskrima Digest:
==============

OK, as promised....

Ang Kali na Dinatnan ng mga Kastila ay Hindi pa Arnis
ang Tawag nuong 1610

(The Kali that the Spaniards encountered was not yet
called Arnis in 1610)

Noong unang panahon ang larong ito'y kilala saa tawag
na "kali" ng ating mga ninuno, nguni't sa hindi
maiwasang pagbabago ng panahon at pangyayari ay
pinamagatan nila ng "Panandata" sa Tagalog,
"Pagkalikali" sa kapatagan ng Kagayan ng mga Ibanag,
"Kalirongan" sa Pangasinan, "Kaliradman" sa Bisaya at
"Pagaradman" sa Ilongo nuong 1860, at "Didya" sa
Ilokos at muling naging "Kabaroan," ayon kay Rev. Fr.
Gregorio Aglipay na bantog din sa arnis nuong 1872.

Below is the best translation I can make. Maybe my
kababayan here can help me correct it? Gat Puno? Leo?
Jay? Jose? Manong Jorge? Ed? Anyone?.....

In early times, this game/sport/contest (?) was known
by the term "kali" by our ancestors, but because of
the inevitable changes over time and events, this
became known as "Panandata" in the Tagalog regions,
"Pagkalikali" in the plains of Cagayan especially
among the Ibanags, "Kalirongan" in Pangasinan,
"Kaliradman" in Bisaya and "Pagaradman" in Ilonggo in
1860, and "Didya" in Ilokos, which again became
"Kabaroan" according to Rev. Fr. Gregorio Aglipay who
was also expert in arnis, in 1872.

Mirafuente in Yambao 1957 (10)

Mirafuente does not give any bibliographic references
at the end of his chapter. However, he does give the
definitions of the terms at the end, written in a
dictionary format, which may mean that he had access
to a dictionary or laid out the format that way. There
is a literary reference here, a quote from "Florante
at Laura" (Florante and Laura) an long poem written in
the epic form (published as a book)from the 19th
century by Francisco Balagtas. The quote includes two
terms, buno (wrestling) and arnis. Other than that,
and apart from a reference to the decree by Don Simon
de Anda y Salazar prohibiting the carrying of weapons,
no other references are given. Which is a pity, since
I would also loved to have looked them up myself.

The way this section in this chapter is written, there
appears to be no other significance to the term kali
than its being the term used to refer to the martial
arts of the time.

Regards,

Bot
Logged
filipino_boxers
Guest
« Reply #167 on: April 15, 2004, 02:19:05 PM »

so, skeptic's premise is that Mirafuerte obtained the word Kali from the US, correct?

questions:  did Mirafuerte ever study in Hawaii or California?  in the 1950s, was he ever in contact with Villabrille or Largusa? (Crafty: Excuse the buttinsky please, but in that the book was published in 1951, it would be the 1940s or the year 1950-- yes?)

Sun Helmet: it's funny you talked about rhythm, cuz while watching some of the footages, i couldn't help but think that the pinoy boxers move more like modern day boxers, compared to their opponents who moved more like they were in the 1930s (hope that makes sense, kinda like watching basketball in the 60s and now, totally different movements).  know of any "Flash" elorde footage floating around?
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #168 on: April 15, 2004, 05:26:06 PM »

Quote from: filipino_boxers
so, skeptic's premise is that Mirafuerte obtained the word Kali from the US, correct?

questions:  did Mirafuerte ever study in Hawaii or California?  in the 1950s, was he ever in contact with Villabrille or Largusa? (Crafty: Excuse the buttinsky please, but in that the book was published in 1951, it would be the 1940s or the year 1950-- yes?)

Sun Helmet: it's funny you talked about rhythm, cuz while watching some of the footages, i couldn't help but think that the pinoy boxers move more like modern day boxers, compared to their opponents who moved more like they were in the 1930s (hope that makes sense, kinda like watching basketball in the 60s and now, totally different movements).  know of any "Flash" elorde footage floating around?



hey boxer.

I'm do not know if Mirafuente ever went to Hawaii or the US. I just remember reading somewhere before that he somehow used a Filipino Community newsletter published in the US as his reference.

but can anyone tell me which Stockton masters and schools refer to their art as Kali? Crafty?
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #169 on: April 15, 2004, 07:16:40 PM »

Woof S:

S. wrote:

"I'm do not know if Mirafuente ever went to Hawaii or the US. I just remember reading somewhere before that he somehow used a Filipino Community newsletter published in the US as his reference."

God, that's even more slender a historical basis than we Kali people are accused of using!  cheesy  

"but can anyone tell me which Stockton masters and schools refer to their art as Kali? Crafty?"

I coulda swore that this was covered in the last couple of pages , , ,  wink  

Anyway, another one from the Eskrima Digest in reponse to a comment of mine:

BEGIN:

2. Transcript from either Laban Laro or into the
Vortex by P.G. Sulite. I do not have access to my
video tapes, they are packed for moving. I am relying
on my notes for this so if the exact wording is not
correct please excuse. I personally believe it to be
very close as I am generally pretty thorough with my
notes. Begin!


"Hi I am PG Edgar Sulite. founder of Lameco Escrima
Intl. Lameco means Largo, Medio, Corto. Or Long Range,
Medium Range and Close range. It is a combination of
the various styles which I have studied in the
Phillipines from the different Grandmasters.

********BTW, don't be confused with Kali, Arnis or
Escrima because it means the same. We have more than
87 languages in the country. In the Phillipines and
the most popular language that we call in ourFilipino
Martial Arts in mindinao is called Kali. In Visayas it
is called Escrima. In uhhh, uhhh Luzon it is called
Arnis but it means the same so don't be confused with
it's name. Others call it Pagkalikali, others call it
Pananandata. It depends on the provinces, the dialect
that these people are using. Now this is like my name.
I am Edgar Sulite. My middle name is (missed it),
Edgar(xxxx)Sulite. So I have three names, in one
personality, so it means the same. Kali, Arnis or
Escrima. Other people will say " Oh I am practcing in
Kali" and other people will say "I am only practicing
Escrima." No don't be confusedabout it cause it all
means the same. Now we will start with the
basics....******
End of transcript.
I further find it interesting that the Art in question
is Lameco Escrima, yet throughout the tape PG,
constantly uses the term Kali to indicate what he does
and as reference to indicate subject.

Phil Hurcum

END

WHAT SAY YOU ALL?

Additionally, while in Germany at Dieter K and Alfred P's big shindig last month, I sat next to one of the Filipinos who was there to teach he said he was a Cebuano living in Mindanoa and that the term Kali was used.  He then proceded to give me a patch of his system and it used Kali.  Forgive me please for not remembering his name or system off the top of my head, but at the moment my wife and I are quite busy getting ready for a 10 day trip to backwater Peru with our two young children to visit their grandmother where she does good works and I don't have the time to go look for the patch or track down which instructor it was.

Additionally, one of the first things that Roland Dantes said to me upon our meeting was about how the term was legit-- thus confirming an email I had received by someone unknown to me purporting be his student some time ago to that effect.

ATTENTION:  I SEEK TO PERSUADE NO ONE.  I CLAIM NO HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE.  There are many who do and who claim historical certainty that the term Kali, which is part of my vocabulary, is a fraud perpetrated by certain indivuduals and certain groups which was propagated by the gullible.  For those sincerely interested in exploring for the truth, as versus being right about conclusions previously made, I have proffered the Mirafuente intro here.  

It seems logical to me to say that the 1951 Mirafuente intro raises a legitimate question to the fraud hypothesis.     Against Mirafuentes it so far all we have HERE SO FAR is a vague recolllection that even if true, IMHO, seems to challenge plausibility a bit.  

For those sincerely interested in exploring for the truth we also have here PG Sulite's words.  If you knew him, or know of him and where we he came from and who he was, you will give these words fair weight.

As for the additional info, give it what weight you will.  It matters not to me.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
Logged
filipino_boxers
Guest
« Reply #170 on: April 16, 2004, 10:37:50 AM »

Quote from: filipino_boxers

questions:  did Mirafuerte ever study in Hawaii or California?  in the 1950s, was he ever in contact with Villabrille or Largusa? (Crafty: Excuse the buttinsky please, but in that the book was published in 1951, it would be the 1940s or the year 1950-- yes?)


hi, crafty... the date on top, i believe your post, has 1957 next to yambao's name. so, i thought this book was published in 1957...

skeptic: so, far we only have the Villabrille/Largusa school which uses Kali, and possibly LaCoste, as crafty indicated.  but, then again there are newer groups that developed like Sayoc Kali, Atienza Kali, etc that have adopted Kali also.  but, i think we should just concentrate to the folks who used Kali around the 40s and 50s. so, Villabrille/Largusa is what we have so far.

as for Edgar Sulite...  didn't he credit only two Masters for his art? namely, Caballero (from Cebu) and Ilustrisimo (from Cebu)? both do not and have never used Kali.

the question would be: where and when did Sulite come to use Kali? if, indeed, in Mindanao, where in Mindanao and which group or groups in particular?
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #171 on: April 16, 2004, 10:46:40 AM »

"I just remember reading somewhere before that he somehow used a Filipino Community newsletter published in the US as his reference."

If you can find evidence of this, then your case will be stronger.  Otherwise, it is just heresay. If you cannot find it, then you need to argue from a different angle to make your case.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #172 on: April 16, 2004, 11:23:41 AM »

All:

"possibly LaCoste, as crafty indicated. but, then again there are newer groups that developed like Sayoc Kali, Atienza Kali, etc that have adopted Kali also. but, i think we should just concentrate to the folks who used Kali around the 40s and 50s. so, Villabrille/Largusa is what we have so far."

Actually I think I should say LaCoste with certainty.

"as for Edgar Sulite... didn't he credit only two Masters for his art? namely, Caballero (from Cebu) and Ilustrisimo (from Cebu)? both do not and have never used Kali.  the question would be: where and when did Sulite come to use Kali? if, indeed, in Mindanao, where in Mindanao and which group or groups in particular?"

The point here is not that Sulite used Kali for Lameco-- he didn't-- but that he was an unusually broadly trained and travelled man in FMA throughout the RP, as evinced by his "Masters of Arnis, Kali & Eskrima" and that what he said as described nearby above, should be seen in that light.  For him the term Kali was a legitimate indigenous term.  Historians make of it what you will.

C.
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #173 on: April 16, 2004, 11:49:59 AM »

"Additionally, while in Germany, I sat next to one of the Filipinos who was there to teach he said he was a Cebuano living in Mindanao and that the term Kali was used. He then proceded to give me a patch of his system and it used Kali. "

Very interested to know who this person is, Crafty and his explanation for Kali.
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #174 on: April 16, 2004, 12:04:54 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous
"Additionally, while in Germany, I sat next to one of the Filipinos who was there to teach he said he was a Cebuano living in Mindanao and that the term Kali was used. He then proceded to give me a patch of his system and it used Kali. "

Very interested to know who this person is, Crafty and his explanation for Kali.


I'm pretty sure that his school had no "Kali" lineage (his masters before him probably called it Eskrima or Arnis) and named his own school with reference to Kali.

I personally have friends who are Cebuanos who moved to Manila, read Inosanto's book, interacted with "Kali" groups during WEKAF activities, and hence adopted the Kali name.

I also know of someone who is from Mindanao, got educated in Manila, learned Lightning Scientific from the late founder Master Lema and the late Master ybanez,  but is now back in Mindanao and has a popular school named something like 'Mandirigmang Kali".

Things are even getting worse right now as Filipinos being "re-educated" by American Kali websites since more and more Filipinos are getting connected to the internet.
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #175 on: April 16, 2004, 07:43:37 PM »

That's an assumption on your part skeptic.  The best approach to this is to wait for Crafty to provide more information about this Cebuano teaching Kali and his connection to this word, whether legitimate or just another adoption of Kali because of it's exotic and indigenous sounding.

Maybe he did learn of Kali in Mindanao, but where in Mindanao would be the million dollar question.
Logged
skeptic
Guest
« Reply #176 on: April 16, 2004, 08:08:29 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous
That's an assumption on your part skeptic.  The best approach to this is to wait for Crafty to provide more information about this Cebuano teaching Kali and his connection to this word, whether legitimate or just another adoption of Kali because of it's exotic and indigenous sounding.

Maybe he did learn of Kali in Mindanao, but where in Mindanao would be the million dollar question.


Hey Guest,

Where are you from?
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #177 on: April 17, 2004, 10:22:42 PM »

I'm from California, skeptic? and Yourself?
Logged
SunHelmet
Guest
« Reply #178 on: April 18, 2004, 01:20:40 AM »

"(hope that makes sense, kinda like watching basketball in the 60s and now, totally different movements). know of any "Flash" elorde footage floating around?"

Makes perfect sense to me. I don't know of any Elorde footage offhand but there has got to be some around since his era was after these gents and he was arguably the most popular boxer to come out of the Philippines.

--Rafael--
--------
---------
------------
--------
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #179 on: May 02, 2004, 09:08:10 AM »

Woof All you Historians:

Spotted this on the ED by Leo Salinel:

"I agree with Professor Bot Jocano. Placido Yambao
didn't invent the word in 1957; for sure he got it
somewhere. The problem is, we don't know where he got
that.

Another historical puzzle is the fact that the late GM
Floro Villabrille and GM Benny Largusa were the first
Americanized Pinoys to use "kali" as a term to refer
to their arnis/eskrima. And yet I assume it isn't
likely or possible even for those guys to read Placido
Yambao's book, which was published by the University
of the Philippines Press in 1957 as an academic sort
of book (in 1957, GM Villabrille had been in the USA
for more than 20 years. And I doubt if GM Largusa, who
was born in Hawaii, speaks Tagalog). So the question
remains:  WHERE DID THEY GET THE WORD kali?

I have a novel theory that the answer to this riddle
lies in the "Pulahan" cultist groups. GM Villabrille
trained with the Pulahans, and GM Braulio Pedoy
learned his arnis from Faustino Ablin, a Pulahan
chieftain, from whom he got the story of their art of
Derobio being one of "those pre-colonial fighting
styles that went underground when the Spaniards
outlawed the use of blades" (quoting from the Derobio
website). Could there be a Pulahan connection to all this?"

Any merit to this?

BTW, I thought the date of publication was 1951, not 1957?

yip,
Crafty
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #180 on: May 02, 2004, 11:01:31 AM »

Quote from: dexter


"About the kali kalihan festival in salvador Benedicto you said that they just made it up when they read Inosanto's book, my god where in the hell did you get that?"

Maybe, my source was ill informed. Forgive me for writing that, but the fact that this word still originated in the US still holds true.




"did you know that the town of Salvador Benedicto was still un accessible in the 1970's? and the people who live there are called the pulahan tribes did you know that? bet you did not now you know better put that in your research notebook..."

the Pulahanes are not tribes in the Philippines Mr. Gaje. this is an Anthropologic fact. The history of the Pulahanes are found in Mr. Ileto's "Pasyon" and Mr. Mojares' "War Against the Americans", to name a few books. They were first documented in Southern Luzon, then in Samar, Leyte, Bohol, Negros, and Cebu in the 1900s and sometime prior. they were so named for the red they wore. They were a millenarian religious group which spread during the first years of the American occupation.




"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"

There is the connection I was looking for!!! So, basically it has you after having lived in America, having political connections, knowing your people will receive any American information rather easily, since colonial mentality (as Mr. Constantino has eloquently written about) is very rampant among Filipinos. Of course, when you offered the word Kali they accepted.





"Now that is the problem you base your facts from other peoples research, I think you misunderstood what I mean the pulahan tribe that I was talking about was the pulahan that PAPA ISIO headed in the town of Isio south of negros island. they were originaly called karul-an they were separated from the lowlanders, they had their own form of government and set of beliefs and customs and traditions, when the spanish came and tried to envade them they declared themselves independent so the the spanish regime masaccred the tribe but few survived and migrated to other places , but brought with them their own set of beleifs and customs and traditions later on as time passed by, they integrated with the pulahan that you are talking about and so they were known in time as the pulahan. And the remnants of these are still in Salvador Benedicto.The old name of Salvador Benedicto is Igmayaan."


Basing your initial research on other people?s research is what you?re suppose to do. This is the academic process. Now you are saying it?s not the pulahan (first, you said "it was the pulahan tribe), it was actually the karul-an tribe who were accepted among the pulahanes. The pulahan as you?ve explained used the word Halad, before you changed it yourself. Halad means offering in Bisaya. Records indicate that the municipality of Salvador Benedicto is composed of about 60% Bisaya (cebuano) and about 40% Ilongos (hiligaynon). This is from the census. My question now is, did the populace of Benedicto use the title Kali, or did they know about it, before you introduced it? Were they even remotely familiar with this term and its meaning?





"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"

"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? "



Yes it is political, if the populace didn?t use this title to begin with. This is what you call an Introduced Cultural concept. Very much the same with what christian missionaries do when they visit non-christian tribes and introduce foreign concepts, thus yanking them out of their already established cultural traditions. Also Kali is not a custom or a set of beliefs, unless you can explain how it is a custom or set of beliefs, besides just saying that "in Kali, we choose life not death, and health over sickness, etc etc.". This is not philosophy, this is just a collection of cliches. You will find the same "sayings" in Tai Chi, Chi Gong, or Karate. What you did was merely introduced the "kali is the ancient martial arts of the Philippines" concept, which was your own. They were not using Kali prior to you.






"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? To honor ones past glorious days? no amount of money could compensate for ones beliefs and principles, That is why Japan is lucky in terms of their cultural heritage, for they have preserved the Samurai and the bushido even though maybe just maybe none is left of this so called samurai warriors, or maybe because no Spaniard colonizer have set foot on their islands! to adulterate everything!"


But, making up a word "to honor ones past glorious days" is suspect since the rest of your art?s terminology is still very much related to other arts that use the title eskrima and arnis (like seguidas, florete, abecedario, baston, orasan, etc.)

================
Guest:

If we are going to be playing history, it will really help if people at the very least use forum names more precise than "guest" and if they identify the players in conversations they quote.

yip,
Crafty Dog
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #181 on: May 02, 2004, 11:06:10 AM »

thanks, for posting that, Crafty...


so, if Villabrille trained with the "Pulahanes" in Samar, and Gaje's family also trained with the "Pulahanes" in the island of Negros, then we just might have a connection between Kali and the "Pulahanes".
Logged
pseduohistory
Guest
« Reply #182 on: May 02, 2004, 02:18:57 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous
thanks, for posting that, Crafty...


so, if Villabrille trained with the "Pulahanes" in Samar, and Gaje's family also trained with the "Pulahanes" in the island of Negros, then we just might have a connection between Kali and the "Pulahanes".


I would not jump into that conclusion. If you are going to use Leo Salinel as your source for the Villabrille - Pulahanes connection, then I would first check Leo Salinel's credentials as regards to being a historian/anthropologist/Filipino martial artist.

I even surprised why Crafty would cite Leo Salinel's words without even checking out who he is.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #183 on: May 02, 2004, 05:06:50 PM »

Not sure why you would be surprised.  Please remember I make NO pretense at being a historian.   I am not vouching for Leo's post-- I simply saw it on the ED, it seemed interesting and so I posted it here-- where some people with some background often come to play-- simply for comments and observations.  Use it as you will.
Logged
psedohistory
Guest
« Reply #184 on: May 02, 2004, 05:59:03 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Not sure why you would be surprised.  Please remember I make NO pretense at being a historian.   I am not vouching for Leo's post-- I simply saw it on the ED, it seemed interesting and so I posted it here-- where some people with some background often come to play-- simply for comments and observations.  Use it as you will.


My apologies, my mistake, was speedreading and got the wrong impression you were endorsing.

woof,

psedodog
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #185 on: May 02, 2004, 09:06:51 PM »

Quote from: pseduohistory
Quote from: Anonymous
thanks, for posting that, Crafty...


so, if Villabrille trained with the "Pulahanes" in Samar, and Gaje's family also trained with the "Pulahanes" in the island of Negros, then we just might have a connection between Kali and the "Pulahanes".


I would not jump into that conclusion. If you are going to use Leo Salinel as your source for the Villabrille - Pulahanes connection, then I would first check Leo Salinel's credentials as regards to being a historian/anthropologist/Filipino martial artist.

I even surprised why Crafty would cite Leo Salinel's words without even checking out who he is.


so, who is he?
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31693


« Reply #186 on: May 04, 2004, 09:48:40 AM »

Woof All:

Another post from the ED brought over here:

Crafty
===========

Hi Jay:
I must have missed something in the ED since your
subject title is Marc Scott's post of Mr. Romy
Macapagal's article. Is this the one that appeared in
the latest issue of Rapid Journal?

Since you quoted me below, I should add that in
Yambao's book, the chapter on the history of arnis was
actually written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, one of
Yambao's students. I am still curious as to where
Mirafuente may have gotten the term itself, since this
book is, as far as we know, the earliest publication
on arnis. An examination of the said chapter does not
show where he got this term from. No bibliographic
reference, no reference to interviews, not even a hint
if this was stock knowledge at the time. Just the
blanket statement itself.

Now, to add another perspective as far as comparative
linguistics is concerned, I recently talked to one of
my senior colleagues from the College of Arts and
Letters here in the University of the Philippines. He
is an Ibanag (an ethnolingustic group in the northern
Philippines) and also spoke Ilokano and Pangasinense,
and he told me that in their area, the old folk used
the term kali to refer to martial arts in general and
if I remember right, to fighting with weapons (note
disclaimer - if I got him right smiley). This seems in
line with the list of terms used by Mirafuente in his
chapter, and especially the list of terms used at the
end. BTW, those terms are also used in the paragraph I
posted earlier.

Sooooo, back to the question: Where did Mirafuente get
the term kali from? I don't know - but I would be
interested to hear from Ilokano, Ibanag and
Pangasinense speakers on this list if that is the term
used in their areas, and how commonly used is it. Also
related terms, as Mirafuente mentions a number of
them.

Your comment about the US Filipinos use of the term
kali interests me since it seems like a worthwhile
topic of interest to anyone doing research on oral
history in the US. Particularly on the lives of early
US Filipinos and especially the FMA masters who
immigrated there. Anyone wanting to take it up
academically?

Bot
Logged
Ka' Roger Mahilum
Guest
« Reply #187 on: May 26, 2004, 01:10:46 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Woof All:

Another post from the ED brought over here:

Crafty
===========

Hi Jay:
I must have missed something in the ED since your
subject title is Marc Scott's post of Mr. Romy
Macapagal's article. Is this the one that appeared in
the latest issue of Rapid Journal?

Since you quoted me below, I should add that in
Yambao's book, the chapter on the history of arnis was
actually written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, one of
Yambao's students. I am still curious as to where
Mirafuente may have gotten the term itself, since this
book is, as far as we know, the earliest publication
on arnis. An examination of the said chapter does not
show where he got this term from. No bibliographic
reference, no reference to interviews, not even a hint
if this was stock knowledge at the time. Just the
blanket statement itself.

Now, to add another perspective as far as comparative
linguistics is concerned, I recently talked to one of
my senior colleagues from the College of Arts and
Letters here in the University of the Philippines. He
is an Ibanag (an ethnolingustic group in the northern
Philippines) and also spoke Ilokano and Pangasinense,
and he told me that in their area, the old folk used
the term kali to refer to martial arts in general and
if I remember right, to fighting with weapons (note
disclaimer - if I got him right smiley). This seems in
line with the list of terms used by Mirafuente in his
chapter, and especially the list of terms used at the
end. BTW, those terms are also used in the paragraph I
posted earlier.

Sooooo, back to the question: Where did Mirafuente get
the term kali from? I don't know - but I would be
interested to hear from Ilokano, Ibanag and
Pangasinense speakers on this list if that is the term
used in their areas, and how commonly used is it. Also
related terms, as Mirafuente mentions a number of
them.

Your comment about the US Filipinos use of the term
kali interests me since it seems like a worthwhile
topic of interest to anyone doing research on oral
history in the US. Particularly on the lives of early
US Filipinos and especially the FMA masters who
immigrated there. Anyone wanting to take it up
academically?

Bot


This is interesting read.  First it was thought that Kali was originated in Mindanao.  Now, the arrow of mystery points to the Northern parts of Luzon.  But, the individuals who have been credited with this term Kali are from Cebu, the Visayas (namely, the Tortals, Villabrille, and LaCoste).

1).  Is there Kali in Mindanao, whether Muslim or otherwise?

2).  Is Kali used among the Visayans also in the Philippines?

(also, I was told that in Mirafuerte's accounts of Filipino history, like the Magellan battle, some of this account was very inaccurate.  Is this true?)
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #188 on: July 20, 2004, 09:25:24 PM »

Quote from: Romy Macapagal

About the term "Kali"

The word "kali" did not come about until about 20 years or so ago and seems to have been coined somewhere, sometime by Filipinos living in the USA. I have personally conducted a search for the word "kali" amongst old people of the major tribes and, except for "kalis" which means sword and "kali" in Ilocano, which means "a hole in the ground"; there is no other word or cognate of "kali".

Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years.

Tony Diego (the present head of the Ilustrisimo system) and I, after the research mentioned, decided that "Kalis" is the more appropriate word because it means "sword" and would then mean the "Sword of Ilustrisimo." The name has not been formally registered except on a website but we had decided on this even when Tatang was still active and alive.
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #189 on: July 21, 2004, 12:05:41 AM »

"The word "kali" did not come about until about 20 years or so ago and seems to have been coined somewhere, sometime by Filipinos living in the USA."

Given the Yambao book, how can this be?
Logged
james1
Guest
« Reply #190 on: July 22, 2004, 07:01:25 PM »

"Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years. "

I believe Yambao's (Mirafuerte's?) first published use of Kali was in the late 1950s.

But, is the above quote about Kali Ilustrisimo and Kalis Ilustrisimo true?
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #191 on: July 23, 2004, 12:56:09 AM »

Quote from: Leo Gaje Jr.
When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival...


Quote from: Romy Macapagal
Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book.


man, this is some serious propaganda campaign!!!
Logged
SUNHELMET
Guest
« Reply #192 on: July 24, 2004, 07:29:59 AM »

On the devil's advocate side of things....

Has there been much discussion on the first published account of the term 'arnis'? or 'eskrima'? Because I have never read about those terms outside of FMAs related publications... not in ANY history book about the Philippines. Not in any publication circa 1900 or before. No mention of it from Spanish sources or third party witnesses to the revolution.

So if we are looking for a term based on WRITTEN documentation, when does the consolidated fighting methods of Filipinos begin to have a term for it?

--Rafael--
--------
--------
---------
---------
Logged
tony
Guest
« Reply #193 on: July 24, 2004, 04:08:49 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but Eskrima or Escrima are Filipino versions of the Spanish word Esgrima or Esgrime, correct?  This word is Spanish for Fencing, which the Filipinos eventually adopted.

Arnis is said to have come from Arnes, which means Harness in Spanish.  Arnes de Mano would mean Harness of the Hand, to describe the interwining nature of Filipino martial arts.  

Another school of thought, would be that Arnis de Mano, came from Armas de Mano, meaning Weapons of the Hand, as oppose to Armas de Fuego, which would mean Weapons by Fire, or FireArms.  Armas de Mano eventually evolved into Arnis de Mano, cut short into Arnis.

Both Eskrima and Arnis are recognized widely throughout the Philippines, even among those who do not practice it.
Logged
SUNHELMET
Guest
« Reply #194 on: July 24, 2004, 05:25:39 PM »

<<Correct me if I am wrong, but Eskrima or Escrima are Filipino versions of the Spanish word Esgrima or Esgrime, correct? This word is Spanish for Fencing, which the Filipinos eventually adopted. >>

Did Filipinos adopt the word or actual western duel/sport fencing methods? Filipino 'eskrima' and Spanish 'esgrima' are technically not taught the same or even use the same shape of weapons.

<<Arnis is said to have come from Arnes, which means Harness in Spanish. Arnes de Mano would mean Harness of the Hand, to describe the interwining nature of Filipino martial arts. >>

Yes, I've read this in FMA books but there's no record of this in any historical book. If we are to have the criteria for the word, 'kali'... we should also apply it on these two terms as well.

<<Another school of thought, would be that Arnis de Mano, came from Armas de Mano, meaning Weapons of the Hand, as oppose to Armas de Fuego, which would mean Weapons by Fire, or FireArms. Armas de Mano eventually evolved into Arnis de Mano, cut short into Arnis. >>

Again, this is just means Spanish terminology applied to a Filipino method of war... it does not have any roots beyond the FMA books. The Spanish did not have a term for the way the Filipinos fought... just "devilish, cunning, furious...etc."

<<Both Eskrima and Arnis are recognized widely throughout the Philippines, even among those who do not practice it.>>

Yes, as FMA terms... but again- there is no evidence that these terms existed in Spanish journals or any other records during the turn of the 1900's pertaining to Filipino's ways of war. For those so critical of the Fil-Ams use of the word 'kali' to describe the same methods without the Spanish influence.. beyond that, I'm still seeking to find what the arts were called during the Katipunan or even at the turn of the 1900's.

If there's no evidence of the words Arnis or Eskrima pertaining to Filipino martial methods prior to 1900's or even later... then this means that the word 'kali' is only pre dated by a few decades is it not?

This is leading me to the conclusion that FMAs and other Pinoys are just squabbling over words that are only a hundred years old at the most - and a few decades apart (if that) and were NEVER the words that our forefathers used to describe what they did... because they were too busy trying to survive to make an 'artform' with charts and drills etc.

Just like any of the practical sword masters from any culture.. the fighting came way before the manuals. If they were still fighting for their way of life with swords a hundred years ago... then they were not making schools or books about their martial art.

In my eyes, that's what makes the FMAs so practical because the art is still a living art.

--Rafael--
---------
--------
---------
--------
Logged
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #195 on: July 24, 2004, 06:35:52 PM »

Quote
This is leading me to the conclusion that FMAs and other Pinoys are just squabbling over words that are only a hundred years old at the most - and a few decades apart (if that) and were NEVER the words that our forefathers used to describe what they did... because they were too busy trying to survive to make an 'artform' with charts and drills etc.


Now we're on the same page.  Personally, I think our forefathers used names like 'pangamut', 'sikaran', 'dumog', etc. (all other indigenous filipino terms).  We have indigenous terms, why not just utilize those words.

Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali are terms just introduced recently.  But, if you notice, only one is being presented as "Ancient".  Not, only is it just presented, but there has been a lot of politics involved in it's introduction to the Filipino mainstream.  If no one argues that "kali" is neither 'ancient' nor 'filipino', everyone will think Kali is really the "Ancient Mother Art" of Eskrima and Arnis.  

Arnis and Eskrima are Spanish in origin, we do not have to debate this.  The word Filipino with its current definition, is only a century old also.  When you concede that "Kali" is not 'Ancient', and is actually a newer term compared to Arnis and Eskrima, then there is no more argument.

They are just terms within the broader concept that is Filipino Martial Arts, not one term better, or more 'Ancient' than the other.  Just terms used to name a still evolving art.
Logged
Kaliman Mythology
Guest
« Reply #196 on: July 24, 2004, 09:02:42 PM »

Quote from: SUNHELMET
<<Correct me if I am wrong, but Eskrima or Escrima are Filipino versions of the Spanish word Esgrima or Esgrime, correct? This word is Spanish for Fencing, which the Filipinos eventually adopted. >>

Did Filipinos adopt the word or actual western duel/sport fencing methods? Filipino 'eskrima' and Spanish 'esgrima' are technically not taught the same or even use the same shape of weapons.

<<Arnis is said to have come from Arnes, which means Harness in Spanish. Arnes de Mano would mean Harness of the Hand, to describe the interwining nature of Filipino martial arts. >>

Yes, I've read this in FMA books but there's no record of this in any historical book. If we are to have the criteria for the word, 'kali'... we should also apply it on these two terms as well.

<<Another school of thought, would be that Arnis de Mano, came from Armas de Mano, meaning Weapons of the Hand, as oppose to Armas de Fuego, which would mean Weapons by Fire, or FireArms. Armas de Mano eventually evolved into Arnis de Mano, cut short into Arnis. >>

Again, this is just means Spanish terminology applied to a Filipino method of war... it does not have any roots beyond the FMA books. The Spanish did not have a term for the way the Filipinos fought... just "devilish, cunning, furious...etc."

<<Both Eskrima and Arnis are recognized widely throughout the Philippines, even among those who do not practice it.>>

Yes, as FMA terms... but again- there is no evidence that these terms existed in Spanish journals or any other records during the turn of the 1900's pertaining to Filipino's ways of war. For those so critical of the Fil-Ams use of the word 'kali' to describe the same methods without the Spanish influence.. beyond that, I'm still seeking to find what the arts were called during the Katipunan or even at the turn of the 1900's.

If there's no evidence of the words Arnis or Eskrima pertaining to Filipino martial methods prior to 1900's or even later... then this means that the word 'kali' is only pre dated by a few decades is it not?

This is leading me to the conclusion that FMAs and other Pinoys are just squabbling over words that are only a hundred years old at the most - and a few decades apart (if that) and were NEVER the words that our forefathers used to describe what they did... because they were too busy trying to survive to make an 'artform' with charts and drills etc.

Just like any of the practical sword masters from any culture.. the fighting came way before the manuals. If they were still fighting for their way of life with swords a hundred years ago... then they were not making schools or books about their martial art.

In my eyes, that's what makes the FMAs so practical because the art is still a living art.

--Rafael--
---------
--------
---------
--------


Well then why don't we just use what term we Filipinos use in the Philippines which is Arnis and Eskrima. Case closed.
Logged
Crafty Dog
Guest
« Reply #197 on: July 24, 2004, 09:39:16 PM »

OK then, what about Yambao?
Logged
tony
Guest
« Reply #198 on: July 25, 2004, 03:03:47 AM »

Correction: Mirafuente wrote that portion, not Yambao.  (this part is opinion, but there's a good chance the word "kali" he writes about is merely the truncated version of "kalirongan")
Logged
tony
Guest
« Reply #199 on: July 25, 2004, 03:11:12 AM »

Atleast if one uses Kalirongan in place of Kali, then he/she will be able to point to a particular region and ethno-linguistic group from which their term originates or is used.  You cannot do this with "Kali".  

Who uses Eskrima? Well, the Bisayas, mostly.  Who uses Arnis? Mostly, the Tagalogs.  Then we get to Kali... and NOBODY KNOWS!!! (although many Fil-Ams do, in the US.) rolleyes
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!