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Author Topic: Filipino Martial Arts and Boxing  (Read 41628 times)
CJ
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« on: November 15, 2003, 07:25:22 PM »

Did Filipino Martial Arts Revolutionize Boxing?


By Lilia I. Howe

The stunning footwork of today's greatest fighters, including Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson, may have been the product of Filipino fighting principles.

Over the years, there have been many valiant attempts to link Asian fighting arts to modem spoils and/or forms of combat. Most of these can be charitably described as "reaches" or pure speculation. However, in one case, there is strong historical evidence that a Southeast Asian fighting system may have had a profound effect on Western boxing specifically the Filipino martial arts, known variously as kali, eskrima, and arnis.

Background

Despite the aura of mysticism an "ancient" lineage gives a fighting art, Western boxing predates most Asian martial arts. Pugilism was practiced in a refined art form in ancient Greece several hundred years before the birth of Christ, whereas most classical Asian systems evolved after the birth of Christ. Many arts, such as karate, are products of the 20th century.

Although there has been some speculation that the Greek arts were the origins of refined Asian combative principles, the stronger evidence suggests that India was their place of origin. Spreading northward into China across the Himalayas, the Indian martial arts evolved into what we now know as chuan fa (fist way). At the same time, sailors, merchants, and traders carried their knowledge of fighting arts south, throughout the Mahajapayit empire, a vast chain of islands consisting of modern-day Indonesia, Thailand, Burma, and the Philippines. Western pugilism evolved in a similar fashion. The Greek culture had a profound influence on the Romans, who conquered the known world. Hand-to-hand fighting was regularly practiced by soldiers and gladiators, who required a knowledge of how to stay in combat when disarmed. This evolved into the sport of boxing.

East Meets West

By the beginning of the 20th century, Western boxing was both a sport and an art form. Fighters would generally chamber their hands in a straight-up position; fists pointed upward covering the face, elbows tucked into the body, the fighter would drive his blows in an "uppercut" into the body of his opponent Old pictures of such greats as John L. Sullivan depict this fighting stance.

Fights consisted mainly of "exchanging blows." One fighter would strike the other, then the other would hit back, and this process would go until one fighter lost consciousness or was too hurt to continue.

As anyone who has ever seen even an amateur boxing match knows, the boxing of today is radically different. Boxers generally employ a 45-degree angle positioning of the hands, and jabs and crosses are driven to the target. Sophisticated footwork patterns often save the day, and, rather than exchange blows, a defensive strategy of drawing and countering and blocking and countering is used.

"Gentlemen" Jim Corbett is generally regarded as the first scientific boxer. Not a powerful puncher, he defeated Sullivan using footwork, evasions and timing. Corbett's successes caused boxers to approach their art with a new respect for strategy over power. This created fertile soil for the most significant event in the history of Western pugilism.

Boxing changed drastically in a cultural exchange during the early 1900s in one of the greatest ethnic melting pots in history -- Hawaii -- a relatively lawless territory. Fights frequently occurred, and one's survival often depended on one's toughness. Asian immigrants passed on their knowledge of martial arts to their sons, hoping it would ensure their survival.

Since fighting skills were so highly valued, Hawaii produced many fine fighters. One such fighter was Lucky Lucaylucay, amateur boxing champion of Kaui and Honolulu, son of Buenaventura Lucaylucay, a Filipino immigrant who had become the professional boxing champion of Kaui and Honolulu.

Lucky Lucaylucay saw the melding of Filipino martial arts and Western boxing firsthand. "I remember, there were two types of boxers in Hawaii in the `20s," he recounts. ?There were the Americans, who held their fists at an angle, used footwork, bobbing and weaving, and used continuous motion in their techniques instead of just ?trading hits.'

"The English style of boxing would almost always lose to the Filipino style. It was just vastly more sophisticated."

Lucky maintains that the Filipino style of boxing is a direct derivative of Filipino panantukan (pugilism). "Filipino arts start training with weapons because it's more likely you'd be attacked with weapons. The empty-hand motions come from weapons moves. In the case of boxing, the hand moves come from the moves of the dagger.

"In the Philippines, the preferred method for knife fighting is with the blade pointed downward. If your practice is based only on empty bands, you can take punches, so your strategy is sometimes based on taking a punch. On the other hand, if your practice is based on knife fighting, you have to become much more sophisticated with your footwork, evasions and delivery because one wrong move could mean death.

"Filipino boxing is exactly like knife fighting, except instead of cutting with a blade, we strike with a closed fist. There have to be some modifications. For example, you need more power in striking with the fist, so we stand close and use a whip like motion to deliver power."

As the saying goes, "You can't argue with success." Thus, as servicemen and visiting boxers experienced the Filipino boxing strategy, they were quick to adopt the techniques. What once was a static "toughest guy" contest, soon incorporated such concepts as combinations, follow-ups, angling and flowing concepts familiar to any practitioner of Filipino martial arts.

"If you look at the old English way of boxing, there was no blocking," says Lucky. "There's no control. I used to watch my dad and Kid Moro (a Filipino boxing champion) fight, and their control was so superb they used to spar without gloves, use full-power blows, and they could stop a fraction of an inch before a blow made contact. There was never an injury."

The JKD Connection

Lucky's son, Ted Lucaylucay, is well-known in martial arts circles as one of the most knowledgeable exponents of not only Filipino martial arts, but Bruce Lee's fighting concept of Jeet Kune Do. Ted points out that many of Lee's theories on boxing were later found to apply to Filipino martial arts.

"In Filipino martial arts, there is no rigidity," according to Ted. `The individual adapts. The techniques are just the ladders that take you upward in your training. You develop your own style after a while. This is why the Filipino arts lent themselves to boxing so well. They already existed as a process of adapting, so a Filipino martial artist could just shift his training to the requirements of boxing.

"I have had the opportunity to experience many different martial arts, and my Filipino background helped me with boxing, silat, muay Thai ,JKD, and so on. I could see the angles of attack, body positioning, and balance."

Float Like an Ali-bangbang, Sting Like a Bubuyug?

The Philippines have produced many famous boxers, such as Kid Moro and Francisco ?Pancho Villa? Guilledo from Iloilo, Luisito Espinosa, but without question, the greatest fighter ever to come out of the islands was the late Gabriel "Flash" Ellorde from Cebu, former world lightweight champion. Ellorde was the first to use the "dancing" style of footwork later made famous by Muhammad Ali.

"I can't say for certain whether Flash taught Muhammad his footwork," says Ellorde's sister, Jacinta Perez. "I know they were close and when Muhammad came to the Philippines he stayed with my brother. What I do know is that that particular style of footwork is from escrima, and it originated with "Flash".

So he either taught it to Muhammad, or Muhammad picked it up after others started imitating Flash's style."

Ellorde came from an impoverished childhood in the Visayan Islands region of the Philippines. His schooling was neglected, so he had to start school later in life. Because he was older than the other children. they made fun of him, and he soon dropped out of school.

"Flash was very self-conscious about his illiteracy," according to Jacinta. ?he knew that he had absolutely no chance in this world unless he made it as a boxer. So from a very early age, he was determined to make it as a boxer.

"He practiced night and day, and became very good. However, our father had been the escrima champion of Cebu, and he refused to teach "Flash". In the Phillippines, fathers usually didn't pass the art on to their sons.

"One day I said to Flash. `If you want to learn from dad, give him a couple of glasses of wine and get him happy. Then tease him; push him around a little. You'll learn what he knows.

"So Flash would sit and talk with our father and serve him wine then he'd start teasing him. Our father would get up and defend himself and come at Flash using his escrima, and Flash noticed his intricate footwork, the way he'd angle his body' how he'd seem to just float gently, then explode with power.

`This was the style Flash used in the ring. Quite often, other fighters couldn't lay a glove on him. Of course, all of the great fighters came to watch each other fight, and pretty soon others were using Flash's footwork. But no one was better at it than Muhammad Ali."

Therefore, East truly did meet West in one of the most unlikely places, the boxing ring. It just might be that even today, when Holyfleld lays a challenger flat, whether or not he knows it, most of his technical skill originated in the rice fields of the Philippines.





Lilia I. Howe is a frequent contributor to Inside Kung Fu and Inside Karate Magazines
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 03:31:32 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
Spadaccino
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2003, 03:39:49 PM »

CJ,

I've read this stuff before, and, to be frank--I don't believe it.

The descriptions of English boxing are not accurate, based on what we know.  British pugilism was in fact very scientific (and shared many similarities with Wing Chun).  Even into the Glove Era, the English method of punching with the vertical fist (using the bottom three knuckles, ala Wing Chun) was still taught and used--Jack Dempsey was an advocate of it (one of his trainers also worked with the great Peter Jackson), and his demolishing of Willard's jaw in 1919 is a testament to its effectiveness.

Also, for anyone to claim that English boxing had no blocking is patently ludicrous--the very stance is in fact geared towards parrying.  Dempsey himself said that it was a great defensive stance.  The reason the pugilists fought with that Wing Chun-esque hand position was because they didn't wear gloves--it would have been too easy for punches to slip through when using a modern boxing guard.

However, I would also like to stress that my opinions are not meant in any way to be disrespectful to any Filipino masters, past or present.  

Peace,

Dave/TFS
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CJ
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2003, 09:59:30 PM »

thanks Spad,
for balancing things out.  i thought the article was somewhat skewed, but didn't really have the info to analyze.

what do you think about the "Flash"/Ali connection regarding footwork, not sure if you're a boxing aficionado? did footwork revolutionize when "Flash" Elorde came in the picture in the 50s and 60s, or was footwork already pretty sophisticated?

p.s.--did you see the pacqiao/barrera fight saturday nite? has got to be one of the classic fights ever.  manny pacqiao too is Bisaya, but not sure if he's got any escrima background.
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2003, 11:55:30 PM »

Quote from: CJ
thanks Spad,
for balancing things out.  i thought the article was somewhat skewed, but didn't really have the info to analyze.

what do you think about the "Flash"/Ali connection regarding footwork, not sure if you're a boxing aficionado? did footwork revolutionize when "Flash" Elorde came in the picture in the 50s and 60s, or was footwork already pretty sophisticated?

p.s.--did you see the pacqiao/barrera fight saturday nite? has got to be one of the classic fights ever.  manny pacqiao too is Bisaya, but not sure if he's got any escrima background.


CJ,

In regards to the article being "skewed", it hardly comes as a surprise to me, since there are plenty of misconceptions concerning British bare-knuckle pugilism even within the Western boxing community itself.  Common myths (some of which are echoed in Howe's article) include:

1.   Bob Fitzsimmons "invented" the solar plexus punch.

Actually, this punch was known much earlier; Captain John Godfrey described it in his early 18th century treatise.

2.  Gentleman Jim Corbett was the first "scientific" boxer.

In reality, Corbett was simply a technician who beat a guy who wasn't a technician.  The myth of Corbett issuing in a new "scientific" approach may have been the result of the fact that his defeat of Sullivan in 1892 was the first major fight held under the Queensbury rules.  Sullivan, on the other hand, had fought the last major contest under London Prize Ring rules in 1889, so he was associated with the end of the bareknuckle era.  Boxing histories then seem to have ultimately interpreted this as a victory of the New over the Old.

3.  Corbett was a weak puncher.

Hogwash.  Corbett broke Sullivan's nose in the third round of their fight, and Fitzsimmons commented favorably on the power of Corbett.

4.  The bare-knuckle pugilists had no technique, compared to later boxers.

This one is particularly bizarre, considering that when we first hear of "modern" (18th century onwards) Western boxing, it is taught alongside fencing (English backsword/singlestick, and French smallsword).  Common targets included between the eyes (to cut the opponent so he could not see), under the ear (the carotid artery--a dangerous knockout punch), and the solar plexus.  Punches were executed with the vertical fist, and the straight left had more power behind it than the modern jab.  

Under London Prize Ring rules, standing grappling was allowed--throws like the "cross-buttock", found in several forms of indigenous English wrestling (a type of hip-throw variant), were popular.  This gave British pugilism a sort of san shou feel to it.  At least one famous boxer in the 1800s won a large percentage of matches due to his excellent throwing ability.

In regards to the  alleged effect that Filipino fighters had in footwork--I really can't say.  It seems that footwork was already highly developed before that--even Howe states that it was one of the key factors that enabled Corbett to defeat Sullivan.  

But one thing that is certain is that the Filipinos have produced plenty of top-notch boxers over the years.  In the 1920s, Western combat sports were actually very popular in Shanghai, and one Filipino boxer, Joe Sacramento, was very popular with the American "Shanghailanders"--he ultimately became the lightweight champion of China.

The reason for the Filipino penchant for good boxing may be twofold--many probably had FMA backgrounds, and hence they already moved dynamically.  Also, being that the Filipinos are not exactly the largest folks out there, they would naturally rely more on technique anyway.  Lightweight boxing matches are often more fun to watch in general, because of this.

Finally, I unfortunately missed the fight in question.  

I also missed Roy Jones Jr's latest match.

Peace,

Dave/TFS
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"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590
CJ
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2003, 11:44:49 AM »

alot of good info, Spad.

thanks again.  i'll definitely keep all this in mind, next time boxing discussions come up regarding techniques, origins and levels of sophistication.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2003, 12:06:02 PM »

Woof Spad et al:

  Thanks for the rejoinder and fleshing out the English structure.

  That said, I'd like to contribute a few points for consideration:

  As a preliminary matter, I note that this article is several years old.  Not only is Lucky Lucay dead, so is his son Ted far too soon.  Ted was the first man to become Full Instructor under Guro Inosanto (I may not be stating this exactly right, anyone who can clean it up please feel free to do so)

  I trained occasionally in Ted's class in the 1980s at the Inosanto Academy at Glencoe Avenue and in that context occasionally met his father Lucky, (who was one of the higher people in Villabrille Kali system BTW) who at that point was already substantially debilitated from the diabetes that would eventually take his life.  With that said, occasionally he would sometimes briefly demonstrate ideas and movement and his boxing movement was of a different nature.  Quite impressive nevertheless!  No doubt there are some treasured home videos somewhere of it, but his son Ted also had this movement.  I know he did at least one video for Unique on "stick boxing" where this idiom of movement is recorded (no dig at Guro Ted, but the vid is a bit of a snorer as a video I must confess-- he like to explain things thoroughly.)

My impression of the article was that the bit about Ali may have been a stretch, possibly for what the editor might have seen as a catchy hook for the cover of the magazine (Did Ali get his footwork from FMA? Buy this issue and find out! blah blah) but the rest of the article's premise strikes me as probably pretty sound.

I understand your point that the article may, as many do, have underappreciated English boxing, but I read the point about "no blocking" a bit differently than you.  I understood it to me that the mentality of a weapons fighter, a knife fighter, is much more exchange averse than someone who approaches things only from an empty hand perspective and that the nature of the movement that descends from it has a different quality.   I think this point IS valid and the Lucays manifested it.

Yes, Lucky said "no blocking" in the English boxing but please consider that a) his English wasn't very good and b) his statement is in the context of training method-- but this is all really a tangent from the larger point, yes?

As I often so ably demonstrate, historian is not my forte, so I proffer for you, or anyone, to answer:  How, when, where, and why did boxing shift from the Sullivan structure?  Is it enough to simply say "boxing gloves"?
Why to this day do Euro fighters tend to lack head movement compared to North and South American fighters?  Less rythmic music?  cheesy

Apart from my years with Guro I, whose Panantukan still blows me away, I have trained with a manong in Negros who had wonderful panantukan, I have met Cebuanos with superb boxing mechanics (as a result of their trainin interplay with sticks and knives) I have seen footage from the interior of the Philippines (I will see if I can get Krishna Godhania to comment on his experiences in the Philippines in this regard).  What I have seen leads me to feel that the hypothesis that interaction with the Philippines and Filipinos led to the changes from the Sullivan structure to the modern structure, either through the crossroads of Hawaii and/or the US soldiers coming back from the Philippines at turn of the century after introducing boxing gloves there and having some hard lessons in matches in the Filipinos, seems to me to be the most plausible.

If it helps, we can compare this the influence of the Brazilians (Gracie-Machado et al) on grappling.  Yes there was good grappling before, but somehow it is different now.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2003, 08:36:57 AM »

Woof Guro Crafty,

Quote from: Crafty_Dog


  Thanks for the rejoinder and fleshing out the English structure.


Anytime.  I do the best I can, with what knowledge I have.

 
Quote
That said, I'd like to contribute a few points for consideration:


Fire away! Smiley

 
Quote
As a preliminary matter, I note that this article is several years old.  Not only is Lucky Lucay dead, so is his son Ted far too soon.


Yes--this is most unfortunate.  I also have been informed that the author of the article (Dan Inosanto's sister) is also deceased. Sad

 
Quote
Ted was the first man to become Full Instructor under Guro Inosanto (I may not be stating this exactly right, anyone who can clean it up please feel free to do so)

  I trained occasionally in Ted's class in the 1980s at the Inosanto Academy at Glencoe Avenue and in that context occasionally met his father Lucky, (who was one of the higher people in Villabrille Kali system BTW) who at that point was already substantially debilitated from the diabetes that would eventually take his life.  With that said, occasionally he would sometimes briefly demonstrate ideas and movement and his boxing movement was of a different nature.  Quite impressive nevertheless!  No doubt there are some treasured home videos somewhere of it, but his son Ted also had this movement.  I know he did at least one video for Unique on "stick boxing" where this idiom of movement is recorded (no dig at Guro Ted, but the vid is a bit of a snorer as a video I must confess-- he like to explain things thoroughly.)

My impression of the article was that the bit about Ali may have been a stretch, possibly for what the editor might have seen as a catchy hook for the cover of the magazine (Did Ali get his footwork from FMA? Buy this issue and find out! blah blah) but the rest of the article's premise strikes me as probably pretty sound.

I understand your point that the article may, as many do, have underappreciated English boxing, but I read the point about "no blocking" a bit differently than you.  I understood it to me that the mentality of a weapons fighter, a knife fighter, is much more exchange averse than someone who approaches things only from an empty hand perspective and that the nature of the movement that descends from it has a different quality.   I think this point IS valid and the Lucays manifested it.


Someone coming from a weapons-use background will often understandably have a different take on things, and what you suggest has been seen in Western fighting disciplines too.  For example, in Ancient Greece and Macedon, pankration often came under criticism in the military context for two main reasons:

1.  The emphasis on ground wrestling (as opposed to standing throws), which generally wasn't as applicable to battlefield conditions.

2.  The fact that it was an unarmed art meant that people were taking shots; if such a thing was done in an armed encounter, the person would be killed (ie., a fighter can take a punch, but a sword will drop him).  This was a comment made by Alexander the Great himself, who had a comparatively low opinion of pankration.

This is something that you noted in modern MA training too, in that one DB video where you (or Eric Knauss) stated that the Dog Brothers don't work too much with espada y daga, since the fighters tend to pay too much attention to the stick in sparring, when in actuality it would be the dagger that would do the most damage, in a real fight.

Quote
Yes, Lucky said "no blocking" in the English boxing but please consider that a) his English wasn't very good and b) his statement is in the context of training method-- but this is all really a tangent from the larger point, yes?


I'm not sure.

Quote
As I often so ably demonstrate, historian is not my forte, so I proffer for you, or anyone, to answer:  How, when, where, and why did boxing shift from the Sullivan structure?  Is it enough to simply say "boxing gloves"?
Why to this day do Euro fighters tend to lack head movement compared to North and South American fighters?  Less rythmic music?  cheesy


Again, it was not a matter of boxing shifting "from the Sullivan structure".  There were plenty of technical fighters long before Sullivan's time--the famous Spanish-English Jew, Daniel Mendoza; the "Swaffham Gypsy", Jem Mace; etc.

Much of it had to do with rule changes.  There was no wrestling allowed in Queensbury rules, and that obviously changes the focus and dynamics of a fight (eg., Don Frye has had a pretty good MMA career, but his K-1 pursuits have not been quite so impressive).

You also have to keep in mind that, while Sullivan was never a technician to begin with, he was 34 years old and way out of shape for his bout with Corbett.  These certainly contributed to his demise that day.


Again, you still see fighters using major elements of bare-knuckle pugilism well into the Glove Era--Jack Dempsey described the vertical fist punch in minute detail in his Championship Fighting book (Bruce Lee was a fan, as I'm sure you know).  Dempsey describes such peculiarities as the "falling step" and the so-called "power line" (the latter being recognizable to WC fighters).  It is a much different manner of punching than in "modern" boxing.

Dempsey also described the various stances that existed in his day:

1) THE UPRIGHT STANCE: In that position, used by many british boxers, the body is practically "straight up and down", with the weight either evenly distributed on both feet or resting largely upon the "right" foot. It is an excellent "defensive" stance because it permits freedom of the feet for fast foot-work, and because it provides freedom for blocking and parrying. It has at least one defensive weakness, however. The user can be knocked off balance or floored much more easily than if the weight is forward. "Offensively", the position doe not stimulate explosive punching, since the weight is not forward.  

2) THE SEMI-CROUCH: That's the stance you've been using for throwing straight explosive punches. I'll explain shortly why it's the perfect stance for fist-fighting. (Note: this stance as illustrated in the book sort of resembles the Muay Thai kick boxing stance except there is slightly more flexion (bending) of the waist and knees)

3) THE FULL CROUCH, OR LOW CROUCH: That stance is used at close quarters by practically all "bobbers and weavers" - chaps who come in bobbing low and weaving from side to side. It is used by those who specialize in hooking attacks rather than straight punching. The bobbers and weavers prefers to fight at close quarters, for all hooks and uppercuts are most explosive at short range. It is an "excellent defensive stance" after the user has mastered the "art" of bobbing and weaving. That takes considerable time. Your bobbing-weaving head is and elusive target. Moverover, you are bent forward so far that your opponent has great difficulty getting at your body. It was my favorite stance. I found it invaluable in fighting bigger men.

It has these disadvantages:

1) Your weight is too far forward to permit proper "fall" in straight jolts.

2) And your weight is too far forward to permit fast retreating footwork - if you want to retreat.

"If a fellow is a southpaw - lefthanded - he can use any of the three stances; but his "right" foot and "right" hand will be "forward" and his "left" foot and "left" hand to the "rear". It is much easier for a left-handed chap to fight in the southpaw style. However, most trainers prefer to convert southpaws - to turn them round - and have them take a right-handed stance."

"The SEMI-COUCH, which you have been using, is the best for fist-fighting for the following reasons:

(a) Your weight is forward just enough to stimulate explosive straight punching.

(b) It (your weight) is forward enough to prevent you being knocked off balance or floored easily.

(c) The weight is not forward so far as to interfere with your footwork - and footwork is important in keeping you at long range in a fist fight.

(d) You are at all times in a comfortable balance position from which you can attack, counter, or defend WITHOUT PRELIMINARY MOVEMENT.
[/i]

So basically, Dempsey noted the various styles in existence at his time.  It is interesting to note that he felt that the semi-crouch was the best overall stance, even though he personally preferred the full crouch.

It is even more interesting to note that Filipino prowess in the ring probably had to do with what they perfected--I'm going to take a wild guess and suggest that, since they were comparatively small, they preferred infighting (much like Dempsey)--and so that's what they concentrated on.


Quote
Apart from my years with Guro I, whose Panantukan still blows me away, I have trained with a manong in Negros who had wonderful panantukan, I have met Cebuanos with superb boxing mechanics (as a result of their trainin interplay with sticks and knives) I have seen footage from the interior of the Philippines (I will see if I can get Krishna Godhania to comment on his experiences in the Philippines in this regard).  What I have seen leads me to feel that the hypothesis that interaction with the Philippines and Filipinos led to the changes from the Sullivan structure to the modern structure, either through the crossroads of Hawaii and/or the US soldiers coming back from the Philippines at turn of the century after introducing boxing gloves there and having some hard lessons in matches in the Filipinos, seems to me to be the most plausible.


I still must disagree here.  All the dynamics of boxing were present in that sport before the Americans went to the Philippines.  In addition, Martin Burke (the resident boxing historian at MMA.tv) told me that the full crouch that Dempsey liked so much was seen as early as 1882, when it was employed by Frank Slavin.  This likewise predates any supposed Filipino influence.

It is also frustrating that this supposedly massive Filipino influence is never mentioned anywhere else.

Dempsey gives credit to the old bare-knuckle boys for the manner of punching he was taught.

He pointed out that the upright stance was particularly preferred by English boxers.

French savateurs acknowledge that their punching likewise comes from English pugilism (Boxe Anglaise).

But no one (to the best of my knowledge) has ever mentioned this Filipino influence, aside from the Lucaylucays, in the article in question.

Quote
If it helps, we can compare this the influence of the Brazilians (Gracie-Machado et al) on grappling.  Yes there was good grappling before, but somehow it is different now.


I'm not so sure about that either.  A really good book that everyone should get is the new Mastering Jujutsu text by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher.  Danaher goes into the history of BJJ in detail, and it seems pretty clear that the BJJ syllabus comes straight from old-style judo (with some CACC thrown in here and there).  The reason BJJ seemed so revolutionary when it finally came under the public spotlight was due to the fact that the focus of judo had long ago switched from ne-waza to standing throws.  Danaher points out how Kano naturally had big Olympic plans for judo--and the ne-waza groundwork (which, incidently, was ultimately derived from a classical jujutsu school--the Fusen-ryu) was thought to look boring to spectators.  Because of this, Kano implemented rule changes, to shift the emphasis to standing throws.

So, I don't know how "different" the grappling is now--I think that the emphasis has simply shifted back to the groundwork, just as it was in the early 20th century, when judo/jujutsu exponents like Yukio Tani and Mitsuyo Maeda  went over to England and used their own very formidable ne-waza skills against all comers--boxers, catch wrestlers, etc.

Peace,

Dave/Spad/TFS
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"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2003, 05:39:45 PM »

Woof David/Spad/TFS et al:

  With the Gathering coming up in a few days I have no time for a proper reply at this point.

  Krishna Godhania emailed me to say that he found the thread interesting but family matters and his upcoming hosting of Tuhon Chris Sayoc distract him at present from replying but that he will do so when the dust settles.  I look forward to seeing what he has to say.

Crafty
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2003, 07:40:45 AM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Woof David/Spad/TFS et al:

  With the Gathering coming up in a few days I have no time for a proper reply at this point.

  Krishna Godhania emailed me to say that he found the thread interesting but family matters and his upcoming hosting of Tuhon Chris Sayoc distract him at present from replying but that he will do so when the dust settles.  I look forward to seeing what he has to say.

Crafty


Woof Guro Crafty,

Hey, it's all good--I hope the Gathering goes well!

As for Krishna--I, too, look foward to his commentary.

Peace,

David
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Rafael Kayanan
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2003, 09:36:51 AM »

"So Flash would sit and talk with our father and serve him wine then he'd start teasing him. Our father would get up and defend himself and come at Flash using his escrima, and Flash noticed his intricate footwork, the way he'd angle his body' how he'd seem to just float gently, then explode with power. "

I met the great Flash Elorde when I was a kid. My uncle and he were childhood friends. It was the first time I ever met a 'celebrity' and it made avery big impression on me to see his Japanese style home and the room full of trophies and medals etc.

I remember about ten or so years ago I was in Florida and working out some stick and blade work in the backyard. My uncle was visiting and said out of the blue, (paraphrasing here) "Hey, just like Tatang Elorde, Flash's dad!".

That froze me on the spot and I went over to ask him about Flash's father. He said he and the other young guys would hang out with Flash and ask Flash's father to show off his footwork and his long and short stick work. He said the man was a blur, and the other boxers would be impressed.

I believe when Ali was in the Philippines to promote 'Thrilla in Manila' he was quoted by several magazines as giving Flash his props as an influence.

I've watched many of the old time boxer's old reels and what they lacked was lateral footwork and movement. It is less apparent now but can still be seen by the more former East European boxers.

There was a reason Elorde was dubbed 'Flash' and it was due to his movement and timing. He wasn't an in fighter but fought the way Ali fought. They weren't smaller than their opponents because they were the same weight.

There's also information that many of the black regiments that served in the Philippine - American 'insurrection' also introduced the SPORT of boxing to the Filipinos and the natives loved the sport.

As per Pacquiao, I thought he was from Mindanao. Did he train in Elorde's gym when he was in the islands? He gave Barrera more trouble than I thought he would, since Barrera is a remarkable fighter and can adjust to about any style. Barrera's dismantling of England's Prince Hasim is a classic. It seems that Pacquiao's off beat timing and angles gave Barrera problems. I never saw Barrera so flustered or out of his game.

Btw, I don't know if the Howe interview was lifted from my own postings on another forum but I know I have the article somewhere. It was from an Inside Kung Fu or Black Belt mag from the mid eighties.

posted by Sun Helmet
--Rafael--
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Stickgrappler
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2003, 12:29:02 PM »

hello,

i have had the article archived on my site for a looong time, however, maybe some other site had the article too.
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2003, 12:36:05 PM »

Woof Sun Helmet:

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/articles/fmabox.html

also, as a note, several yrs ago, this discussion came up on the ED and someone had it scanned in (IIRC Mike Krivka or Joe Marsalek (sp?)) and has forwarded the article on request.

so it's possible that it was not lifted from you.
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"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Matt Bailey
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2003, 08:10:17 PM »

The famous historical author Lous L'Amour, who won 51 of 59 fights as a proffesional boxer, was of the opinion that boxing was more of an art before gloves were introduced, because the bare fist is quicker and harder to block. He also felt that the extra weight of the boxing glove led to more "punch-drunkedness" and ultimately, brain damage, than bare-knuckle fighters had experienced.
Food for thought.
Cheers,
Matt
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Rafael Kayanan
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2003, 03:12:33 PM »

Stickgrappler,

Since I myself lifted the info from the actual article in the magazine, there's no sweat on who got what where. I know Mike Krivka from some of the Sayoc seminars, and he as well as many others have been around long enough to have that identical IKF issue.

--Rafael--
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Jose
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2003, 06:33:09 PM »

Quote from: Rafael Kayanan


As per Pacquiao, I thought he was from Mindanao. Did he train in Elorde's gym when he was in the islands?

--Rafael--


Hi Rafael,
Pacquiao is from General Santos, Mindanao, i'm 90% sure of this.  but, Yes he is Bisaya.  i'm in L.A. (originally from Cebu City) and a great fan of Pacquiao.  for the last month and half now i've religiously taken my early lunch breaks at a Thai restaurant below the Wild Card gym in Hollywood, get my lunch to-go and spend my whole lunch hour watching Pacquiao spar and train. and chit chat with Boy, one of Pacquiao's trainers. the guy's an amazing fighter--movement, power, everything, he's got it all.

as for Elorde's gym, not sure, but he did train in Cebu City (not sure if that's where he started, or just continued his training there; but there's a handful of quality boxing stables and trainers in Cebu, who are also connected to the whole Eskrima subculture there, these folks basically move around in the same circles)
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Rafael Kayanan
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2003, 08:53:33 PM »

Jose,

Thanks for the info - that's a great opportunity to watch a champion train while still in his prime. Pacquaio has lots of power, his KO of the Mexican fighter before the Barrera fight was also unique. The fighter actually spun around, ambled towards the ropes and then fell down.

There was a featherweight Filipino fighter who also had a powerful punch - Luisito Espinoza, who I believe ended up training at the Fairtex facilities (where the late MT fighter Alex Gong trained).

--Rafael--
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Arkangel
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2003, 06:40:06 PM »

Good thread, this really is one of the best forums on the net for this MA.
Anyhoo digressing a little bit, I am happy happy to see Loius L'amour getting mentioned here. Sometimes his books are a little formulaic and preachy I guess but man could that cat write.
Every time he put a fight scene int he book he really went all out and you could tell he wasn't barking through his backside. He knew what he was talking about. In my club "The Walking Drum" is required reading for all members. I think i may make " Last of the Breed" also RR.
I am redoing my website right now and I have already listed all my influences or so I thought. Thank s for bringing this up. Credit where credit is due.
He didn't just right Westerns, he wrote  WW2 and Detective genre novels also.
man i am posting alot lately
hurcum
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2004, 12:55:59 PM »

Woof All:  

For those of you not familiar with him, Krishna Godhania is a well-regarded eskrimador from England.  Not only is he a DBMA Lakan Guro wink he's the top student of GM Abner Pasa of Warrior Eskrima and has travelled quite a bit to the Philippines.  Having seen some of video of his training in boxing while there, I asked him to put something together for this thread.

At the moment he is travelling to India on family matters, so he forwarded the following to me for me to post in his behalf.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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Western Boxing v Filipino Boxing, two similar but distinct arts?
By Krishna Godhania.



The largest obstacle facing Filipino martial artists - is the lack of written documentation regarding the technical evolvement of their art.  The earliest surviving - instructional manual on the art is Placido Yambao's - Mga Karunungan sa Laring Arnis (1957).  However, this is a book focusing on classical espada y daga as opposed to empty hands.  A copy of Don Baltazar Gonzales' book De los Delitos (1800) remains to be found, according to the late Manong Eulogio "Yoling" Canete - this book made references to Pangamut (empty hands).  According to Manong Abner Pasa the only copy which Yoling had seen - was destroyed during the second world war.  As a result, we must rely on oral tradition...which some critics regard as unreliable.

In contrast, about 20 instructional western boxing manuals were published before 1850.  Since 1850, over 200 instructional manuals are known.  This allows us to trace the early evolution of the art through literature.  Some years back, I spent a considerable amount of time - reading most of these manuals - at the British Museum Library.  The following are my thoughts on the evolution of Western Boxing.

Early boxing (1740 - 1780) was somewhat crude and highly individual.  Footwork was meagre, the only individual to have used it to any great extent during this period - was Ned Hunt - a pupil of Broughton (the father of modern boxing).  Broughton was extremely proficient at body punching - and the solar plexus, was often referred to as Broughton's "mark".  During this period, chops with the hammer-fist and swings were widely used.  Defense was essentially guarding with the forearm.  The forearms were used to deflect straight punches and to block swings and chops.  Counter attacks called "returns" were made after the initial attack was complete.  Straight punches using a modified fencing lunge - so as to throw the body's weight into the punch - were known from the earliest period.  The stance was the same as that of english singlestick play - which many boxers of this period cross-trained in.

In the 1780's, the great pugilist Daniel Mendoza did much to evolve boxing footwork; retreating and side-stepping gradually began to lose their overtones of cowardice.  "Gentleman" John Jackson perfected the straight left lead in 1790 and used it with authority.  During the same period Ben Brain fathered the straight right, and Dutch Sam introduced the uppercut in 1800.  The hook was hardly used - because it is a short range blow - the hook would more easily expose its user to a close and throw.  Throws played a great part in the fights of this era, cross-buttocks (high hip throws), and a variety of trips - such as the back heel were common.  Fighters often "accidentally" fell on their opponent - so as to maximise the impact of the throw.  "Fibbing" later called "head in chancery" (holding the opponent's head with one hand whilst hitting it with the other) was widely practiced.  Defensive hitting (the ability to hit effectively whist retreating) was known during this period, but was called "milling on the retreat".  It was developed by Tom Cribb in 1810.  

Sometime, during the 1840's the on-guard position changed.  Perhaps the decrease in boxers cross-training with weaponry (principally singlestick) influenced this development.  The hands were lowered (note: not always to their detriment), the left pointing forward and the right held across the mark.  The stance was more upright, sometimes effaced and sometimes with the shoulders square.  The lower guard led to the development of "head movement" -slipping, ducking and swaying back.  It also contributed to the development of "drawing".  Counters (counter-attacks delivered simultaneously with the attack) were also developed during the mid 1800's.

It is interesting to note, that under Broughton's Rules (1743), and the Rules of the London Prize Ring (1838, 1853), few blows were barred, wrestling was allowed, and the fight continued until one man or the other could no longer rise ("toe the scratch") or be dragged to his feet at the end of thirty seconds.  The Marquis of Queensberry Rules (1867) introduced the wearing of gloves for fights (although they were known as "mufflers" and were worn for sparring since Broughton's time).  The Queensberry Rules also introduced the 3 minute round, and the 10 second knockout.  This further changed the shape of boxing.  In some cases, it increased the severity of professional fights - for gloves protect a fighter's hands more than his opponent's face.  

Swings became popular again, because protection of the gloves helped reduce the risk of damage to the hands - when delivering these punches.  James J Corbett was credited with developing the short or "shovel" hook in 1889.  In the same year George La Blanche - knocked out the original Jack Dempsey - with the "pivot punch" - a move taught to him by the english lightweight - Jimmy Carroll. The "corkscrew blow" - which involved rotation of the fist from palm up to palm down - was popularised during the 1890's by Kid McCoy (although it was taught to him by the great trainer - Jimmy DeForest).  The Queensberry rules banned wrestling - as a result the natural crouch gained in popularity, and was used effectively by such fighters as Frank Slavin and Jim Jeffries.

During the early 1900's, Jack Johnson (perhaps the greatest defensive boxer in the history of the game) - perfected the "catch" - a defensive manouver whereby you literally catch the opponent's punch - in the palm of your glove.  "Infighting" was also developed considerably during the early 1900's.  The bob and weave was used more often - to gain the inside position.  Concepts such as "shifting" with the opponent's punches and different types of clinching were developed.

Western Boxing came to the Philippines (via US servicemen) in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.  As can be seen from the above, it was already a highly evolved art.  Manong Dan Inosanto has mentioned that "when the Americans saw the Filipino's box (early 1900's) - they noticed a high on-guard position, unusually quick punching and lots of footwork...unknown to them - this was as a result of previous training with knife".

In my archives, I have a boxing article called "the Father of Philippine Boxing". (1927).  The article is about Eddie Tait, one of the first boxing promoters in the Philippines.  However, it contains some interesting observations - such as "...there has been a gradual discarding of the deadly knife without which the average Filipino once thought himself hardly dressed."
It should be noted - that not many discarded the knife.  Even today, the Philippines has a blade culture.

I believe it is the influence of the knife, which makes Panantukan (aka Pangamut) unique.  

I trained extensively with Manong Estaneslao "Tanny" del Campo.  Tanny was one of the best boxers to come out of the Philippines.  He fought for the world bantamweight title in the 50's, and fought two - very close fights against Gabriel "Flash" Elorde.  Tanny told me the Filipino method of boxing differs from western boxing in the following ways.

"It is essentially a bare-fist art.  It makes use of punches to the groin, elbows to the body and face, arm wrentching, headbutting, and "turning" or "spinning" the opponent so as to disorientate him. The parry is favoured - against the block, because your opponent may be attacking with a concealed weapon in the fist.    In short it is designed for the street.  If you want to box in the ring, you must learn western boxing, if you use Pangamut in the ring - you will surely get disqualified".

My belief is that any western boxer can - benefit from cross-training in the Filipino method.  From a self defence perspective - it will give him many more options.  From a ring perspective, some of the following training methods will help enhance his boxing.

Try using a training knife in conjunction with the focus pad, as a "coaching tool" - to improve punching, and body evasion.

For example, let's take the jab.  Hold a focus pad - in your right hand, and knife in your left hand.  If the puncher drops the arm upon retraction, hold the knife at chest level.  This will give him feedback.  If the punching arm is slow to retract - after hitting the pad, cut it with the knife.  If the puncher has a tendency to lean "over" the central-axis when punching with the right cross, put the knife in front of the sternum - this will make him rotate his torso "around" the central-axis.  If you want to increase speed of footwork, get the puncher to move into range with the jab and stab the lead leg, so that he moves rapidly out of range - after jabbing.

To conclude, the Filipino's must have embraced western boxing, and then applied their knowledge of the knife to create a similar - yet distinct art.  Unfortuntately, there are no old surviving books on the subject (although Guro Rick Faye's recent book - is an excellent effort).  Old teachers are rarer yet.  Most have passed away.  I was fortunate to find two in the Philippines (Manong Tanny Campo and Manong Dicoy Veraye); this was after a decade of research - most of which was off the beaten track.

The US - is fortunate to have Manong Dan Inosanto, who's Panantukan is highly evolved and unique.

These teachers - continue to keep this wonderful art alive.
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haumana2000
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2004, 03:12:11 PM »

great post! kudos to Krishna, it would be great to see a video on the campo style of pangamut with some archival footage, I hope that something is put in the works before this opportunity like so many others fades or passes away with another grandmaster of our native arts.
In the recent PAcquaio Barerra fight, you can see a "different kind of fighter" in manny pacqauio, whether he has trained in fma or not, his movements, speed, and ability to pat the jab, and stick one back in your face (a common FMA technique) is so apparent it's a thing of beauty.  
Come on Krishna, hook us up!
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Sun Helmet
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2004, 11:54:16 AM »

Excellent article by Krishna - looking forward to more.

Btw, the Sayocs had a great time in England and with their host, Krishna.

--Rafael--
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Spadaccino
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2004, 08:18:56 AM »

Once again, I've been away for a bit, but it looks as if I have returned at a good time--Krishna's article is really good.

I'll offer more thoughts soon...

Peace,

Dave/TFS/Spad
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"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590
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« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2004, 04:37:20 PM »

Decided to revive this thread after recently viewing some old film of Pinoy Boxers. As much as books and articles describe the action, the footage speak for themselves.

Now this is not to say other fighters moved this way based on their country of origin, but suffice to say the footage does show an English/Western fighter versus a Filipino in the early era of Boxing as sport we know today.

1923 World Flyweight Championship
Pancho Villa - Filipino versus Jimmy Wilde (World Champ)

The thread began with a comment of lack of blocking evident in European fighters. What I saw here is that Wilde would use his hands to try and deflect blows but was rather unsuccessful due to Villa's agility. Villa would launch himself with power shots that went right through some of his defenses.

In turn the Pinoy, Villa would 'absorb' Wilde's punches in a semi crouch turtle guard that looked like Ken Norton's peek a boo style. This nullified a lot of Wilde's punches and Wilde kept delivering them at the same spots.

This guard is different from Wilde's which was the lower lead left, a bit out from the hips variety that another English fighter uses in the next fight I saw which was filmed a decade later.

So Villa's arms were tucked close together and Wilde's were held out.

Now, I don't know if it is Villa's empty hand experience coming into play, but he does deliver 'illegal' type blows in this match which are backhands after his right hook. It just flows right back after his hook and thumps Wilde a few times. So it's a half beat shot. Wilde even complains to the ref and shows him what Villa is doing. Villa does it pretty fast and tight on few occasions.

Villa won the fight.
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World Flyweight Championship 1937
Small Montana (aka Benjamin Gan, he's the Pinoy) versus Benny Lynch

If ever Filipino 'footwork' may have influenced Ali this is a good evidence of it.
Gan has a smooth subtle rhythmic bounce to his timing which is very reminiscent of Ali. His jab, especially as he slides away looks much like Ali's. Jab and move.

Guards:
The Englishman ? Lynch would hold his lead left straighter, farther from his hips similar to Wilde's above.
The Filipino Gan's left lead is tucked ala Ali's along his side.
Surprisingly, Gan even does a slight 'ali' shuffle as he zones out of the punches.

Lynch would come in with a nice lunging left then pop back on his feet. His bounce was after the fact...very different-  like a fencer getting out of the way after a lunge and recovering from the movement. He establsihes this more as the fight wore on. Otherwise Lynch was flatter of foot.

Gan would be bouncing prior to striking ala Ali. Then slide back and bounce away. The bounce was more a timing gauge as it set up his shots rather than recover.

Decision goes to Lynch. Gan looks like he abandoned his earlier smooth style and stood flatter- perhaps fatigue set in. No one looked badly hurt in the fight.
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One detail really stood out- the way the boxers acted on the ring. They would shake hands prior to the bout as they entered the ring as if to meet for tea or something.

--Rafael--
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--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
filipino_boxers
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2004, 03:49:25 PM »

That was a good descriptive summary of the old fights, Sun Helmet.  I was wondering where I can get a copy of those footages? and If there are any more footages of old Filipino boxers, pre-WWII and post (any "Flash" footages available?)
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Rafael
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2004, 12:36:24 PM »

Quote from: filipino_boxers
That was a good descriptive summary of the old fights, Sun Helmet.  I was wondering where I can get a copy of those footages? and If there are any more footages of old Filipino boxers, pre-WWII and post (any "Flash" footages available?)


Sounds like a setup (cuz of your screen name) but on the video it states:

filipinoboxers.com
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filipino_boxers
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2004, 11:10:42 AM »

lol... What a coincidence.  I actually tried writing my name, Jason, but this name was already taken, so I wrote down the second thing that came to mind.  Anyways... Thanks for the information.
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Smoke/Enganyo
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2004, 01:54:02 AM »

Sun Helmet, did you see both Pinoy boxing tapes?

http://www.ronbalicki.com/video_worldpinoychamps.htm

Just wondering which to get first is all cheesy
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SunHelmet
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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2004, 05:04:44 PM »

Yes, have seen both. The one you listed is actually a very good documentary with interviews. Some fights aren't as old as the other one, but does have some excellent boxers represented in their heyday. There's footage of 'bolo' punch populator Garcia who Ali referenced when he was doing promos for the the Thrilla in Manila. Ali said he would use the bolo punch in the fight but don't recall if he ever did.

--Rafael--
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Pugil
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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2004, 06:47:24 PM »

I don't believe it in any way shape or form! English Boxing, like Western Fencing (which were often taught at the same Academies by the same people) constantly went through all sorts of fads, fashions and phases. At one point there wasn't much footwork simply because dancing about was not considered to be the manly thing to do - anyone who did so during this period was considered a coward.

As the argument ensued in civilian Fencing (especially civilian Fencing) as to which was the deadlier, the point or the edge, instructors who believed in the point then tried to apply the same principles to Boxing. Round-arm punches (hooks) were derided by people like Owen Swift, as being unscientific. He argued that the straight punch would always be more direct as, travelling in a straight line to its target, an opponent would not be able to reach you with a 'round-arm' punch.

Oh yes, I once bought an Inosanto Academy t-shirt listing many fighting systems and their origins. According to whoever was responsible for that shirt, Boxing originated in... wait for it... America! Need I say more?

Pugil
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SunHelmet
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2004, 11:35:25 PM »

<<I don't believe it in any way shape or form! >>

So you're saying that with the wide array of backgrounds on this forum and their depth of knowledge of the history of Boxing and FMA origins, plus the huge archive of boxing reels since the moving camera could capture fights... collectively backing up that Boxing was influenced by the arrival of Filipinos into the sport that you choose to think the opposite?

<<English Boxing, like Western Fencing (which were often taught at the same Academies by the same people) constantly went through all sorts of fads, fashions and phases. At one point there wasn't much footwork simply because dancing about was not considered to be the manly thing to do - anyone who did so during this period was considered a coward. >>

So you're stating that by the time footage of English boxers can be taken, they were already heavily involved in a fad that all boxing experts would agree was totally impractical against opponents who utilized footwork? All due to some cultural inhibition?

I don't think anyone was saying boxing (the sport) originated in the Philippines, but totally invalidating the dearth of evidence SHOWING Filipino fighters using a different rhythm and footwork than English fighters because of some English cultural inhibition that lasted seventy plus years is quite a leap.

And even if your theory is correct and you cite sources that places everything in context which overwhelm what has been placed here thus far...

It only proves the reason why so many English fighters today all choose to fight UNlike Prince Hamed... so yes, Filipino fighters didn't influence Western boxers who fight flat footed.... they DID influence fighters like Muhammed Ali who admit to being fans of Elorde and Garcia.

--Rafael--
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2004, 12:43:36 AM »

I have a video of Prince Hamed Naseem.  I find his fighting style VERY interesting.
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2004, 01:25:04 PM »

One of Hamed's tactics is the exaggerated lean back of the torso to evade a punch, which often worked against the fighters he fought who lacked angular footwork and one layer of striking. When he fought Barrera, this was nullified because Barrera would set up the followup which is like a shield or bait for the power punch following it.

The baiting hand was also something that Trinidad used against Vargas.

Many theorists say that a baiting hand is useless in battle but it all depends on who the opponent is. If one is fighting against an opponent that counters well, the baiting hand or clearing hand (Sayoc POV) is very useful as shown in world class boxing matches in real time.

In knife related sparring, many use the lead knife as if that isn't also susceptible to getting scissored.. so you tend to see lots of mirroring in the matches... which is cool, unless the reflection is much faster and has a longer reach.

--Rafael--
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2004, 12:34:32 PM »

Woof Tuhon Raf:

Interesting observations.  I also admired Prince Naz' footwork greatly.  Lots of bilaterlism, lots of triangles.

Woof,
Crafty

PS:  Going on a bit of a tangent:

I'm a street bum, says broke Tyson
By Anne Campbell, Metro

Boxing legend Mike Tyson has been sleeping in homeless shelters and
living like a 'street bum' since declaring himself bankrupt.

The former heavyweight champion of the world, who once had more than
?165million in the bank and regularly earned ?5million per fight, also
said he has been accepting handouts from drug dealers.

He added: 'For two years I have been a bum, truly a bum in the streets.
'I've got nowhere to live. I've been crashing with friends, literally
sleeping in shelters. Unsavoury characters are giving me money and I'm
taking it. I need it. The drug dealers, they sympathise with me. They
see me as some sort of pathetic character.'

Tyson, who will be 38 on Wednesday, will fight British boxer Danny
Williams on July 30 in an attempt to make some money.

But he is so deeply in debt that even the ?7.6million to be paid to
him by promoter Don King to settle a lawsuit will not lift him out of
the red.

He said: 'When I had money I was an animal. I was so belligerent. I
lost all across the board. My life has been a total waste.'

Tyson, who served three years in jail for rape in the 1990s and who
bit off part of Evander Holyfield's ear during a 1997 fight, still
thinks he can be heavyweight champion again.

He added: 'I know I was a tough, bad-ass talking fighter, but I ain't
no mob figure. I did my time for the rape. I paid my money to Las
Vegas. I paid my dues.  I ain't the same person I was when I bit that guy's ear off.'
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2007, 05:09:41 AM »

Guro Inosanto offers some thoughts related to this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3WsXSMc2f0&mode=related&search=
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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2007, 08:15:37 AM »

http://www.fmadigest.com/Issues/special-editions/2007/Special-Edition_Filipino-Boxers.pdf


Comments?

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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2007, 03:53:26 PM »

I post this on Corky's behalf.  Thank you Corky!
---------------------------------
Hi there,

I just wanted to let you know about the free webcast of:

"The Great Pinoy Boxing Era"

You can watch it at:
http://www.mybarong2.com/index.php?aPath=39

(or, "copy & paste" the above link into your web browser, then push "enter")

Best regards,
Corky
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Sun_Helmet
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« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2007, 06:50:28 PM »

Crafty,

Received this selfsame email as well and it's the online version of one of the tapes I purchased a while back.
It's got some very good footage and interviews.

Btw, I just reread a four year old post wherein I stated: "but totally invalidating the dearth of evidence SHOWING Filipino fighters using a different rhythm and footwork than English fighters because of some English cultural inhibition that lasted seventy plus years is quite a leap. "

Switch "dearth" to "depth"... never say I don't proofread - sometimes it just takes a few years.  grin

On another note relating to Elorde:
My cousin was fortunate enough to train under the late Filipino boxer Flash Elorde at his camp in the Philippines prior to attending West Point back in the 60's. My cousin became the middleweight champ at West Point but he said it wasn't much compared to the gym battles that he had to endure at Elorde's camp, where the fighters were hungry and saw boxing as one way out of a bad situation. I asked him to write a comment about Elorde.

One of the observations my cousin wrote about his Uncle "Bai" (Elorde was a longtime family friend as well) was the complexity of his patterns.

"... I also remember that he (Flash) didnít have to say a lot when he was in the ring.  His movements and his hand speed was like watching a ballet dancer and a flamenco dancer all in one.  His movements were never predictable, and I remember once trying to imitate his patterns.  That was almost impossible. He had many, and he put them together so well that they seemed like one pattern."

--Rafael--
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--Rafael--
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2007, 07:08:14 PM »

 cool
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Tony Torre
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2007, 07:11:22 PM »

Here's another interesting link.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9fgyzO206Ns

Enjoy,
Tony Torre
Miami arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2007, 12:15:23 PM »

Woof All:

I'd like to put a question out to the collective braintrust here.

I recently saw a clip of the early days of Mike Tyson wherein Kevin Rooney claimed that he developed the head/slip bag a.k.a. the maize bag http://www.ringside.com/DETAIL.ASPX?ID=24621 and used it to develop Mike Tyson's phenomenol head movement  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnwLEbFoBFs

I am under the impression the the maize bag has been around much longer than that and possibly has its origins in the Philippines.  If Cus D'Amato/Kevin Rooney developed it, why is it called a maize bag-- a spanish word for corn?  Could it have come from the Philippines (e.g. a bag filled with kernels of corn)

Can anyone confirm, deny, or add to this?
Crafty Dog

Thank you,
Crafty Dog
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antoy
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« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2007, 01:34:52 AM »

Quote from: Rafael Kayanan

As per Pacquiao, I thought he was from Mindanao. Did he train in Elorde's gym when he was in the islands?

--Rafael--

Hi Rafael,
Pacquiao is from General Santos, Mindanao, i'm 90% sure of this.  but, Yes he is Bisaya.  i'm in L.A. (originally from Cebu City) and a great fan of Pacquiao.  for the last month and half now i've religiously taken my early lunch breaks at a Thai restaurant below the Wild Card gym in Hollywood, get my lunch to-go and spend my whole lunch hour watching Pacquiao spar and train. and chit chat with Boy, one of Pacquiao's trainers. the guy's an amazing fighter--movement, power, everything, he's got it all.

as for Elorde's gym, not sure, but he did train in Cebu City (not sure if that's where he started, or just continued his training there; but there's a handful of quality boxing stables and trainers in Cebu, who are also connected to the whole Eskrima subculture there, these folks basically move around in the same circles)

Pacquiao was born in General Santos, his roots come from Pinamungajan, west cebu.  Gabriel "Flash" Elorde comes from Bogo City, North Cebu the hometown of Sonny Umpad.  The Flash started his boxing career while working as a bootblack in Cebu City.  His early ring name was "KRS Flash"....KRS stands for Kintanar Radio Station, a certain Kintanar from Cebu City was one of his early managers.  He was beaten by "Kid Independence" in his first attempt at the Philippine featherweight crown in Cebu City.  Mesyot a.ka. Kid Independence, if he is still alive is around 88 years old...he used to shine shoes for my late dad when he retired from boxing.  I saw the Flash beat up Teruo Kosaka in a championship bout at the Cebu Coliseum sometime in the sixties.

I have my strong doubts about FMA influencing modern boxing sad...look further into the records and styles of the early innovators like Gene Tunney and Jack Dempsey before jumping into conclusion.  I have firsthand info though that the legendary Flash studied Balintawak Eskrima under the tutelage of Anciong Bacon...according to his batchmate Baltazar "Iti" Gumapon that he trained together with former Mandaue City Mayor Pedong Ouano and TUCP (Trade Union Congress of the Philippines) honcho Democrito Mendoza.  That is a verifiable fact! wink
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 01:38:25 AM by antoy » Logged
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2009, 05:22:17 AM »

Big hat tip to Chaz Siangco, who brought this wonderful piece to my
attention.  Note the reference to "the Battling Bolo" Elias Cantere in the
closing paragraphs.  Cantere was Chaz's "lolo".
=============
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinthetal_0303.htm

Journal of Combative Sport, Mar 2003
Western Boxing in Hawaii: The Bootleg Era, 1893-1929

By Joseph R. Svinth, with Curtis Narimatsu, Paul Lou, and Charles Johnston

Copyright © EJMAS 2003. All rights reserved.



On January 17, 1893, American settlers led by Sanford B. Dole overthrew the
Hawaiian monarchy. Dole and his friends then offered the Hawaiian Islands to
the United States. The US Congress wanted to accept Dole's offer, but
President, Grover Cleveland was an isolationist who disliked filibustering,
as causing insurrection for purposes of advancing American economic
interests was then known. Consequently, the US government rejected Dole's
offer. Nonplused, on July 4, 1894, Dole and his friends established the
Republic of Hawaii, with Dole as its president.

Three years later, William McKinley became President of the United States.
McKinley. McKinley was an expansionist, as imperialism was then known, and
so, in June 1898, the US government voted to annex Hawaii. The US Navy
landed troops at Honolulu in August 1898, and Hawaiian sovereignty
transferred to the United States.


Message from William McKinley nominating Sanford B. Dole as governor of
Hawaii. Note the letterhead, "Executive Mansion," rather than "White House."
Courtesy the Center for Legislative Archives, National Archives and Record
Administration, Anson McCook Collection of Presidential Signatures,
NWL-46-MCCOOK-3(11).

From August 1898 until December 1941, the Territory of Hawaii was under
joint military and civilian administration. However, following the Japanese
attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, the US Army put the Territory of
Hawaii under martial law. Because the Army's leadership did not trust people
of Japanese ancestry, martial law did not end until October 24, 1944. To
reduce the risk of undergoing extended martial law in future, Hawaii's
civilian leaders, many of whom were of Japanese ancestry, began pushing hard
for statehood, which was achieved on August 20, 1959.

Because of the confluence of social and political factors, the history of
Western boxing in Hawaii has three separate eras.

  a.. The first is the Bootleg Era. From 1893-1929, boxing was legal in
Hawaii only if sponsored by the military. In town, the police rarely tried
to enforce anti-boxing legislation, but the threat was always there. This
severely restricted civilian boxing.
  b.. The second is the Territorial Era. From 1929 to 1959, boxing was legal
throughout the Territory of Hawaii. A territorial commission supervised
bouts in town, but the US military continued to exert considerable control
over life in and around Honolulu. The YMCA, the Catholic Youth Organization,
and the Honolulu newspapers all supported boxing, and through their
patronage, the Territorial Era became the Golden Age of Hawaiian boxing.
  c.. The third is the Statehood Era. From 1959 to the present, boxing has
been legal in the State of Hawaii. The state boxing commission continued to
supervise bouts in town, but the military, church groups, and newspapers
gradually withdrew their patronage. Meanwhile, jet planes made it
unnecessary for boxers heading for Australia or Asia to spend a few days in
Honolulu en route, and network television broadcasts hurt local fight clubs
by introducing televised boxing from the Mainland. The professional market
withered, and so, since statehood, most Hawaiian boxers either have been
amateurs or made their reputations outside the state.
The following discusses the bootleg era, 1893-1929.



Military Boxing

In 1893, the US Navy began stationing warships at Honolulu, where their
sailors and Marines were used to prop up the Dole administration. There were
boxers aboard these warships. For example, during the winter of 1893-1894,
the future heavyweight champion Tom Sharkey, then serving aboard USS
Philadelphia, fought at least 14 bouts in Honolulu.


Boxing aboard USS New York, July 3, 1899. Photographer: Edward H. Hart.
Courtesy the Library of Congress, Prints & Photographs Division, Detroit
Publishing Company Collection, LC-D4-32317.

The First New York Volunteer Infantry established the first Army camps in
Honolulu during the summer of 1898, and the Regular Army established its
first permanent post, Fort Shafter, in 1907. In January 1913, the War
Department transferred a black regiment, the 25th Infantry, to Fort Shafter.
Some of these soldiers were boxers. Thus, the Honolulu Advertiser wrote,
"The Twenty-fifth is proud of its colored ringmasters and particularly of
Hollie Giles, a welterweight of 155 pounds, who is described by the men as a
'whirlwind' fighter; Morgan, a heavyweight at 190 pounds; Carson, a light
heavyweight, and Ananias Harris, a light heavyweight."

In those days, military boxing was subject to Sections 320 and 321 of the US
Code. These statutes stated that exchanging blows for money or a thing of
any value, or for a championship, or for which admission was charged, or for
which money was wagered, was illegal. In 1915, the Army circumvented these
laws by ruling that soldiers could box in garrison if there were no
admission charges, no challenges from the ring, no decisions announced at
the end of fights, and no obvious gambling. The first smoker following this
decision took place at Schofield Barracks on October 9, 1915, and
subsequently, boxing exhibitions were common on holidays such as
Thanksgiving, New Year's, and the Fourth of July.

Early boxing promoters at Schofield Barracks included Major Edmund Butts,
whose publications included books and magazine articles touting the benefits
of boxing as a pastime for soldiers, and the regimental chaplain. During the
early 1920s, local promoters included Tommy Marlowe and Lieutenant Barnard
of the 5th US Cavalry, and Sergeant John Stone of the Ordnance Department.
At Fort_Derussy, promoters included Sergeant Anthony Biddle of the 17th US
Cavalry. Boxers assigned to Army units in Hawaii during the late 1910s
included the 25th Infantry's Henry Polk ("Rufus Williams") and Private
Settles ("the Kentucky Chap"), and the Signal Corps' Joseph Podimik ("Joe
Potts").

According to the Advertiser (November 27, 1915), the Schofield ring was "set
up on the cavalry parade and an abundance of chairs at the ringside, an
amphitheatre of bleachers, and seats on the adjoining troop quarters [gave]
better accommodations than [did] the seating arrangement of any hall on
post." Unfortunately, the Schofield bleachers provided no protection from
the afternoon rains, and without electric lights to illuminate the twilight,
the audience had a hard time seeing the last rounds of the main event.

During the 1910s, Pearl Harbor became a major US naval base, and in 1921,
Sub Base Pearl Harbor's Sharkey Theater became the first covered boxing
arena in Hawaii. [EN1] From 1918-1924, civilians often attended Pearl Harbor
bouts. However, this ended in 1924, when Rear Admiral John McDonald decided
to close Pearl Harbor boxing matches to civilians and soldiers. The reason
was that McDonald felt that it was ungentlemanly for the audience to boo and
make disparaging remarks about the contestants and referees.

Once Pearl Harbor closed to civilians, the Hawaii National Guard began
patronizing boxing. Guard boxing coaches included Jim Hoao and Bill Huihui,
both of whom had boxed professionally in Hawaii during the early 1900s.
Boxers trained by these men included Patsy Fukuda, Hiram Naipo, and Gus
Sproat. The Honolulu Armory was the usual venue for these fights.


Patsy Fukuda, circa 1930. Courtesy Patrick Fukuda.

Hawaii's most acclaimed military boxer of the bootleg era was probably
Sergeant Peniel R. "Sammy" Baker. Baker began his amateur career at
Schofield Barracks in 1922. At the time, he was 20 years old, and serving in
the 21st Infantry. Baker was the Hawaiian military welterweight champion in
1923 and 1924, and a runner-up in the selection for the US Olympic team in
May 1924. Following the Olympic tryouts, Baker transferred to Mitchel Field,
on Long Island. Baker obtained his discharge in September 1924, and by 1928,
he was ranked the fifth best welterweight in the world.




Civilian Boxing

Bill Huihui was among the earliest Hawaiian-born boxers. Born at Pauoa,
Oahu, in 1875, Huihui went to sea as a young man, and learned to box in San
Francisco. In 1902, he started boxing for Honolulu's Kapiolani Athletic
Club, and his first Hawaiian professional bout took place soon afterwards,
at the Orpheum Theater. This was a 4-round semi-main event, and the opponent
was Jack Latham. Subsequent opponents included Nelson Tavares, Jack Weedy,
Dick Sullivan, Kid De Lyle, and Tim Murphy. Huihui retired from the ring
around 1909, but continued coaching boxers until at least 1924. Because he
worked as a policeman, Huihui's local trainers may have included the
Honolulu Police Department boxing instructor, R.A. Wood, a Scot who settled
in Honolulu in the early 1900s.


Bill Huihui. From the Advertiser, September 10, 1904

Another early Hawaii-born boxer was Nelson Tavares, "the Punchbowl Demon."
Tavares claimed the Territorial lightweight championship from 1905 until
1908, and his opponents included the middleweights Cyclone Kelly, Dick
Sullivan, Tim Murphy, and Mike Patton, and the lightweights Charlie Riley,
Frankie Smith, Frank Rafferty, and Joe Leahy. After retiring from the ring,
Tavares became a garage owner on Bishop Street.


Nelson Tavares. From the Advertiser, June 17, 1908

During the 1910s, a few Hawaii-born boxers began establishing reputations on
the Mainland. For example, in October 1912, the Advertiser mentioned that
Manuel "Battling" Viera of Hilo was boxing in San Francisco. Viera was still
fighting in San Francisco in 1919, when he fought a four-round draw with Joe
"Young" Azevedo. Originally from Honolulu. Azevedo began boxing in Oakland
around January 1913, at which time he was aged 17. Azevedo's wins included
at least two victories over Tommy McFarland and another over former
lightweight champion Ad Wolgast. After a ring injury caused him to go blind
in one eye, Azevedo settled in Sacramento, where he died of a heart attack
on February 19, 1934.




Vaudeville Exhibitions

Until the 1910s, many Honolulu boxing matches took place inside vaudeville
theaters. To circumvent laws prohibiting prizefighting, these matches were
called exhibitions. For example, on May 28, 1904, Paddy Ryan organized a
boxing card at the New Chinese Theater on Hotel Street. The main event
featured Frank Nichols of Honolulu versus USS New York's Sailor Robinson.
Likewise, on June 22, 1911, the Honolulu Eagles hosted a show at the Bijou
Theater that featured "fun in boxing land." The main event featured Mike
Patton, who claimed to be the champion of the Far East. Finally, on June 11,
1913, Jim Hoao lost a 15-round decision to Private Morris Kilsner during a
bout held at Honolulu's Ye Liberty Theater. [EN2]

Famous champions sometimes took part in these exhibitions. For example,
during July 1894, John L. Sullivan was on a trip to Australia, and while in
Honolulu, he gave an exhibition at the Opera House. His opponent was a
sparring partner named Fitzsimmons (not Bob). Similarly, during November
1907, the visiting lightweight champion Jimmy Britt gave a demonstration to
the "sport-loving people of Honolulu." The Advertiser noted that the latter
exhibition was "of such character that women can safely attend." (In those
days, society discouraged women from attending fights, but some went anyway,
usually watching from backstage.)


John L. Sullivan. Lithograph by Scott C. Carbee, sometime between 1880 and
1910. Courtesy Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division,
LC-USZ62-119896.

Another way that vaudeville managers circumvented the law was by advertising
the boxing as part of a novelty act. For example, in December 1915, the
Welsh welterweight Fred Dyer, who advertised himself as "the singing boxer,"
appeared at the Popular Theater in Honolulu. Dyer was en route to California
from Australia, where his opponents included Fritz Holland and Les Darcy.

The vaudeville promoters generally arranged these fights without asking the
consent of either boxer. Instead, they simply told the men that they had a
fight lined up. Then the boxers either showed up or they didn't.

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« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2009, 05:23:10 AM »



Boxing during Public Holidays

During the early 1910s, boxing was sometimes part of the festivities
associated with public holidays such as Fleet Week, New Year's, and the
Fourth of July. For instance, on July 9, 1910, Jim Hoao fought a military
boxer at Aloha Park in Honolulu.


Honolulu in 1910. Photographer: Robert K. Bonine. Courtesy the Library of
Congress, Panoramic Photographs Collection, LC-USZ62-125408.

However, because of opposition from the US District Attorney, Jefferson
McCarn, there was no off-post boxing in Hawaii between July 4, 1913 (Young
Johnson versus Kaina Opo at Wailuku) and December 31, 1918.

The bout that got things started again was part of the New Year's
celebration at the Iolani Palace, and it featured a Chinese
("Happy-Go-Lucky", originally from Macao) against a Filipino (Raphael
Carpenterio, "the Manila Demon"). Although no admission was charged, the
Advertiser still called it "the first real stage affair of its kind held in
Honolulu since 'Old Rose' Jeff McCarn assassinated the sport in Hawaii." On
August 21, 1919, there were also boxing matches between soldiers and sailors
at Moili'ili Park. Non-military participants included Carpenterio, Young
Johnson, Akana, and En You Kau.

YMCA patronage was probably involved in this post-World War renaissance, as
on March 4, 1919, the Central YMCA of Honolulu organized a "stunt night"
that featured boxing, wrestling, sumo, and judo. The boxers included Jimmie
Flynn versus Jimmie White, Price versus Wilkinson; and the Wright brothers
against each other. All the boxers on this card were welterweights except
Wilkinson, who was a middleweight. Similarly, in September 1928, the Oahu
County YMCA organized a camp at which boys boxed. The athletic director at
the Y, Charles Pease, was a former soldier who based his program on World
War-era military training.

Additionally, veterans and fraternal groups sometimes organized smokers as
fund-raisers. For example, on May 13, 1922, the Veterans of Foreign Wars
hosted a bout featuring Dynamite Tommy Short and Kid Oba (Jack Osoi). Short
tried for the knockout, but ended up with a draw. Similarly, on August 29,
1925, the American Legion staged a smoker at the Hilo Armory.




Fight Clubs

During the 1920s, boxing left the vaudeville houses and public parks for
fight clubs.

On Big Island, the Women's Christian Temperance Union was strongly opposed
to boxing. Consequently, efforts to promote boxing in Hilo led to legal
action. To the disgust of the temperance leaguers, the court actions
eventually led to the legalization of boxing in the Territory, but
meanwhile, there was little organized boxing on the Big Island.

However, on Oahu, the Honolulu business community generally supported
organized boxing. For example, fans attending the fight between Battling
Bolo (Elias Cantere) and Alky Dawson at the Honolulu Armory on March 18,
1927 included the territorial governor (Star-Bulletin publisher Wallace
Farrington) and the Honolulu mayor (Charles Arnold). According to the
Advertiser (April 15, 1928), their official stance was that these bouts were
legal as long as admission was not charged at the gate and the fighters
received payment in private.

The Hawaiian fight clubs of the 1920s were usually warehouses with a ring in
one corner. To avoid legal problems, police got in free and boxing fans
bought daily memberships rather than tickets. Prices for daily memberships
ranged from 50Ę in the gallery to $2.00 in stage seating, and these
memberships had to be purchased in advance.

Ethnicity played an important role in these fight clubs. For example, many
Filipinos were inspired to become boxers by the victories of Pancho Villa,
the first Filipino to become a world boxing champion. Meanwhile, K. Oki, a
Honolulu businessman of Japanese descent, was inspired to provide financial
support to Honolulu boxing clubs after seeing Japanese college students
boxing at Tokyo's Hibiya Park during 1926.


A bout between boxers from Chuo University (left) and Hosei University in
Tokyo. Many Japanese collegiate boxers of the mid-1930s were ethnically
Korean. From Arthur Grix, Japans Sport in Bild und Wort (Berlin: Wilhelm
Limpert-Verlag, 1937).

For Filipinos living on Oahu, Honolulu's Rizal Athletic Club was an
important fight club. Rizal held its first smoker on July 8, 1922, and in
the main event, Kid Parco defeated Alky Dawson in six. The preliminaries
were supposed to feature Jackie Wright versus Cabayon, Hayward Wright versus
Pedro Suerta, Tommy Dawson versus Moniz, and Tommy Short versus Kid Oba.
Unfortunately, Kid Oba was a no-show, as he died of lockjaw on June 28,
1922. He was aged 17. Other boxers associated with Rizal Athletic Club
smokers include Patsy Fernandez, Battling Bolo, Young Malicio, Clever Feder,
Pedro Suerta, Moniz Santiago, and Cabayon.

For Portuguese, an important club was the Kewalo Athletic Club, managed by
A.K. Vierra. Portuguese boxing idols included Don "Lefty" Freitas and Jack
Silva.

For Chinese, it was the Chinese American Athletic Association, managed by
Chang Kau. Chang's brother Dick boxed professionally in California, and
later became a well-known Honolulu coach. Other Chinese boxers of the 1920s
included Jackie Young, Young Loo, Ah Bing, Smiling Ching, Lanky Lau, K.H.
Young, and Lefty Long.


Dick Chang posing with California boxer Paul de Hate around 1927. Note
16-ounce training gloves. Courtesy the Paul Lou collection.

In addition, there were fight clubs for Koreans such as Walter Cho, and for
Japanese such as Patsy Fukuda, Henry Kudo, and the brothers Spud and "K.O."
Kuratsu. Cho went on to become a well-known referee, while Fukuda became
coach of Hawaii's 1949 AAU boxing team.


Spud Kuratsu. The inscription reads, "To Paul Aloha, Spud Kuratsu." Courtesy
the Paul Lou collection.



Training Methods and Contests

Regardless of ethnicity, bootleg boxers used similar methods during
training. As a rule, they began hard training about three weeks before a
scheduled match. A typical training day included sparring 6-10 rounds before
work in the morning. In the afternoon, after work, the boxers ran about ten
miles uphill, and then walked back.

The gloves most boxers wore during both sparring and fighting weighed just 6
ounces. In addition, they did not wear headgear, as it had only just been
introduced. Thus, during sparring, boxers generally tried to avoid hurting
one another.

During contests, things could get heated. For example, Nelson Tavares
recalled Jack McFadden forcing him into clinches and then spitting in his
face (Advertiser, April 9, 1949).

As a rule, however, the goal was simply to give the crowd a lot of action.
For example, here is how William Peet (Advertiser, January 6, 1941) recalled
a Kewalo Athletic Club fight of the late 1920s:

The main event was to have been a six rounder between Kohala Lion [Modesto
Cabuag] and Big Bolo or Battling Bolo (Elias Cantere), a Filipino with a
murderous right. The Kohala Lion failed to show up, so J. Donovan Flint,
present chairman of the Territorial Boxing Commission, agreed to box three
fast rounds with Bolo as an exhibition, in order that the cash customers
would feel that they had not been cheated . they were not cheated as things
turned out.
Flint, a good boxer, one-time Pacific Coast collegiate champion [at
Stanford], was to have refereed the main scrap. He put on the gloves with
Bolo. The first round was fast and interesting. In the second round, Mr.
Flint forgot to pull his punches and tapped Bolo a stiff jab on the nose.
Bolo uncorked a right from the ring floor, the blow landed flush on the jaw,
and the lights went out for J. Donovan. He says he was only dazed, but I saw
the fight and helped Brother Flint come back to earth.

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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2012, 03:32:07 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eypbxKXI1ag

Slick move begins at 01:30
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