Dog Brothers Public Forum
Return To Homepage
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 31, 2014, 09:30:08 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the Dog Brothers Public Forum.
83137 Posts in 2259 Topics by 1067 Members
Latest Member: Shinobi Dog
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  Dog Brothers Public Forum
|-+  DBMA Martial Arts Forum
| |-+  Martial Arts Topics
| | |-+  Dealing with Social Breakdown
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Print
Author Topic: Dealing with Social Breakdown  (Read 8392 times)
JDN
Power User
***
Posts: 2004


« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2011, 05:49:50 PM »

I read it; does that change the homicide statistics?  No.
As previously quoted, homicides are three times worse in America versus the UK.  Mostly with guns.

Mugging and being robbed, albeit not pleasant is NOT the same as homicide. 

We are talking deaths here, not your wallet or TV gone missing.  Or a bar room fight because I made eyes at your girlfriend.

Since the war began in Iraq, I bet more people have died in LA County by gunshot wounds than the number of American soldier's by
combat wounds in Iraq.

It's really quite deplorable. 
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2011, 05:56:24 PM »


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7922755/England-has-worse-crime-rate-than-the-US-says-Civitas-study.html

England has worse crime rate than the US, says Civitas study

 England and Wales has one of the worst crime rates among developed nations for rapes, burglaries and robberies, a major report has found.
 
By Christopher Hope, Whitehall Editor

7:00AM BST 03 Aug 2010



 



However, offenders are locked up for shorter periods than in comparable countries – raising questions about claims made by Ken Clarke, the Justice Secretary, that too many criminals were being jailed.
 

The study found that England and Wales ranked highly in a survey of crime rates among more than 30 developed counries, based on the frequency of crimes recorded by police for every 100,000 people.
 

For burglaries and robberies England and Wales had more crimes per 100,000 people than the USA.
 

England and Wales was ranked sixth for burglaries – worse than Sweden, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Turkey, Italy and Chile - and for robberies, England and Wales was seventh.
 

For rapes, England and Wales was ranked ninth, worse than the likes of Norway, Poland, Sweden, Australia and Germany, while for car thefts, England and Wales was eighth – worse than Slovenia, Chile, Mexico, Greece and the Czech Republic.
 

The figures, from the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, draw together crimes recorded by police in the countries studied and is published every six years.
 
They date from 2006 because of difficulties in obtaining accurate comparable figures.
 
Civitas said, where possible, it had cross-checked with more recent pan-European figures, and the rates were broadly the same.
 
Among two other measures, England and Wales fared better, being ranked 16th out of 35 countries for “intentional homicides” and 19th for major assaults.
 
David Green, Civitas’s director, said: “England and Wales are high-crime societies compared with other developed nations. We have a lot of crime compared with other similar countries.
 
“Random checks of later figures for individual nations show that the ranking has not changed significantly. "
 
Mr Green said further analysis had shown that England and Wales had a low “punitivity ratio” compared with other countries because shorter sentences were being handed down by judges.
 
The ratio is calculated by contrasting the number of people convicted in a year per 100,000 population with the number of prisoners in jail as a result of a court sentence per 100,000 population.
 
In a speech in June, Mr Clarke had said that the debate on criminal justice had to move on from the “numbers game” of measuring the effectiveness of policies solely according to the prison population.
 
But Mr Green said: “Mr Clarke said he thought our system was too punitive, but the report also allows us to test the theory that our system is especially severe.
 
"The score for England and Wales, contrary to the claims of Kenneth Clarke, is low. The claim that our criminal-justice policies are punitive is not, therefore, supported by the best available evidence.”
 
A Home Office spokesman said last night: "This data is now more than four years old, but highlights that we have a high level of crime compared to other countries.
 
"This backs up the perceptions of many communities who have real concerns about stubbornly high level of serious crimes.
 
"This Government will reform the police to make them more accountable to their communities and cut bureaucracy to get officers onto the beat and fighting crime."
 
A Ministry of Justice spokesman said:‬‪ ‬‪"Between 1995 and 2009, the prison population in England and Wales grew by 32,500 or 66 per cent. But this rise has not had a comparative effect either on public confidence in the criminal justice system, or on reoffending.
 
"Nearly half of all offenders sent to prison are reconvicted within a year of release, creating a revolving door of crime
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2011, 05:58:25 PM »

I read it; does that change the homicide statistics?  No.
As previously quoted, homicides are three times worse in America versus the UK.  Mostly with guns.

Mugging and being robbed, albeit not pleasant is NOT the same as homicide. 

We are talking deaths here, not your wallet or TV gone missing.  Or a bar room fight because I made eyes at your girlfriend.

Since the war began in Iraq, I bet more people have died in LA County by gunshot wounds than the number of American soldier's by
combat wounds in Iraq.

It's really quite deplorable. 

And what are the circumstances of those homicides in LA county? Are they distributed on an even basis across the county, or are they clusted in certain geographical areas and associated with certain behaviors?
Logged
JDN
Power User
***
Posts: 2004


« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2011, 06:03:19 PM »


And what are the circumstances of those homicides in LA county? Are they distributed on an even basis across the county, or are they clusted in certain geographical areas and associated with certain behaviors?

As for the circumstances of each homicide, I have no idea.  Frankly, I doubt if they are distributed evenly across the county.  Probably like Iraq, they are clustered in certain geographical areas and associated with certain behaviors.  Probably anti social behaviors if I had to guess.   grin
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2011, 06:04:36 PM »


And what are the circumstances of those homicides in LA county? Are they distributed on an even basis across the county, or are they clusted in certain geographical areas and associated with certain behaviors?

As for the circumstances of each homicide, I have no idea.  Frankly, I doubt if they are distributed evenly across the county.  Probably like Iraq, they are clustered in certain geographical areas and associated with certain behaviors.  Probably anti social behaviors if I had to guess.   grin

Think there is a disparity between say Santa Monica and Watts?
Logged
JDN
Power User
***
Posts: 2004


« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2011, 06:08:56 PM »

Sure, although Santa Monica is a rather odd place.
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/neighborhood/santa-monica/

Then again there is a disparity in sections of London.  Or Iraq.
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2011, 06:12:09 PM »

True enough, however when you look at homicides in the US, there are clear demographic trends related to perp and victim that spikes US homicide stats.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm
Logged
JDN
Power User
***
Posts: 2004


« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2011, 06:28:14 PM »

I understand, that is why I'm trying to compare LA to London.  I think they share many similarities; size, diverse population, rich and poor areas, numerous immigrants, etc.

I am not comparing Cambridge to LA or some idillic town in America to London.

ps I couldn't open your link
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2011, 06:32:50 PM »

Go to this page then look up homicide stats.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm
Logged
JDN
Power User
***
Posts: 2004


« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2011, 06:36:45 PM »

Odd, that one won't open either.  Gotta go, but I'll try again later.
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2011, 06:37:44 PM »

Now mugging is worse in London than in Harlem
by MICHAEL CLARKE, Daily Mail
 London is now more dangerous than Harlem, according to figures released yesterday.

The chances of being mugged in Britain' s capital are 25 per cent higher than in the oncenotorious area of New York.
The statistics will put extra pressure on David Blunkett, as he struggles to contain a big rise in muggings on the streets of Britain's cities.
The figures, produced by the Conservatives, will also increase the Home Secretary's frustration with the Metropolitan Police which, say critics, is failing to tackle violent crime in the capital.
Mr Blunkett wants to know why the Metropolitan force has a similar budget to the New York Police Department but manages to field 30 per cent fewer officers.
He is also furious that murder rates in parts of London are soaring while in New York they are at a record low.
Now the Conservatives have produced figures showing how key parts of the American city also outperform London over mugging.
The Tories have found that in Harlem last year there were just 5.9 robberies per 1,000 residents.
Across London the figure was 7.4 attacks.
In some inner-city boroughs the level of street crime was even higher.
Lambeth, which includes Brixton, saw 24 muggings per 1,000 people - four times the Harlem rate.
Westminster - which includes Downing Street and Buckingham Palace - had 12 robberies per 1,000 residents.
The borough of Islington, where Tony Blair lived before becoming Prime Minister, saw 9.3 attacks per 1,000.
Shadow Home Secretary Oliver Letwin said last night: 'You are now more likely to be robbed in London than you are in New York's Harlem.
'These latest figures validate the fears and concerns of London residents.'
Mr Letwin added: 'Labour promised to be tough on crime, but it is clearer by the day that there are fewer police on the beat and violent crime is rising across the capital's streets.'
Latest Metropolitan Police crime figures show street crime is rising in every London borough.
In some areas it has leapt by more than 70 per cent in a year. By contrast Harlem - the traditional home of black New Yorkers - has seen a major fall in crime since the 1980s when it was dominated by heavily armed drug gangs responsible for a spate of murders.
In the last five years crime has fallen 60 per cent and the murder rate is down 72 per cent.
The fall in crime is attributed to tough policing - at times the area has been flooded with patrol officers to drive the gangs off the streets - plus millions of pounds in government grants to rebuild the area and attract new businesses.
Major retailers like Gap and Disney are moving into the area and it is fast becoming a major tourist attraction.
Property values are soaring and unemployment is down.
Mr Blunkett has warned the Metropolitan Commissioner Sir John Stevens that he has six months to get street crime under control or face seeing his force taken over by the Home Office.
Metropolitan police chiefs blame soaring violent crime on the need to put thousands of officers on antiterrorist patrols in central London in the wake of September 11.
But a recent crackdown on mugging using hundreds of traffic officers to hunt street robbers has had some impact.
More money for overtime to keep up the pressure on muggers was announced in last week's Budget.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-111162/Now-mugging-worse-London-Harlem.html
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2011, 06:50:03 PM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8698193/How-to-recover-Britains-streets-for-civilisation.html

Yes, yes, I blame the parents. Yes, and the slack teachers. And the greedy bankers, pop videos, mass immigration, social media, celebrity culture, MPs’ expenses, hamburgers, and no doubt lots of other nasty things, if you will give me a moment to think of them.
 

But although it may be therapeutic to work off one’s feelings in this way, I wonder if it is the best use of valuable time just now. There are many things in our society which – on the whole, luckily – politicians cannot do much about. On Thursday, they hurried home from their holidays for a day to discuss the rioting and looting. Let us take advantage of this moment to think of what our elected leaders, and the public authorities answerable to them, can actually do.
 

As someone who was a young journalist the last time a wave of disorder swept through the country, I am struck by a great change that has taken place. Contrary to what you may have read, this change is not that violence has increased. It was in 1981 that horrible things like attacking fire engines, trying to kill policemen and using riot as a cover for mass looting first showed themselves in mainland Britain. Although the technology is different today, allowing the criminals to bring trouble to more places, the ferocity of violence has been, if anything, slightly less bad than in Brixton or Toxteth 30 years ago.
 

No, the difference lies in public attitudes to what has happened. This time, the attitudes are much better. Then as now, of course, most ordinary citizens were unequivocal in their disgust at rioting. But in 1981, the prevailing culture among our ruling elites was different. The weight of the BBC, local government, trade unions, officialdom, came down on the police for being too harsh, and, needless to say, on the prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, for the same crime. The chairman of the Merseyside Police Authority supported the rioters, saying: “They would be apathetic fools if they didn’t protest.” In Parliament, Michael Foot, the Labour leader, hurled anathemas at the evil Thatcher. In the capital, a young man called Ken Livingstone took over the Greater London Council in a post-election coup, and began attacking the police.
 

In the Commons on Thursday, the Opposition was as good as gold. David Cameron politely invited Ed Miliband to agree with him, and Mr Miliband politely did. Except on police numbers (with Labour wanting more of them), there was no way of distinguishing between one party and the other. Faced with overwhelming public anger and opinion polls in which 90 per cent wanted water cannon and a third even wanted live ammunition for the police, MPs knew which side their bread was buttered. In 1981, an MP saying that he supported the police was making a controversial political statement. This week, he was uttering a commonplace. So great is the moral pressure that even the criminal justice system, which for years has said that it is utterly impossible to speed up its processes, has suddenly found that its courts can, after all, work through the night.
 
So the Government must not use this political unanimity as an excuse to change the subject – as Mr Cameron seems rather inclined to do – to moaning about “cultural” problems in the whole of society. Let it alter the culture which it truly can affect – its own.
 
The basic trend of public policy since the Brixton riots has been to make it harder for the police to deal with crime. It has not been a question of money. Since 2000, public spending on the police in England and Wales has increased by 36 per cent in real terms. Numbers have risen by 14,000, plus 16,000 community support officers. “Resources” are not a problem, although their allocation certainly is (why, for example, have only a fifth of Met officers had public-order training?).
 
The problem has been a refusal to accept that the need for civil peace must come first. After Brixton in 1981, the Scarman report ushered in an era when police relations with “communities” – a euphemism for ethnic minorities – began to trump their duties to the only community which matters, that of all citizens. The Macpherson report in 1999 went so far as to make race awareness almost the first principle of policing, enunciating the insane, McCarthyite doctrine that “a racist incident is one which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person”. In Northern Ireland, the needs of “community” were invoked to abolish the Special Branch and thus all intelligence on the most serious criminals. More recently, the rights of protest have been considered so important that the pressure group Liberty has actually sat in police control rooms monitoring the handling of demonstrations. And “kettling”, itself a timid way of handling riots, is considered an infringement of human rights.
 
Some of the reforms were undoubtedly prompted by bad practices in the police. But the overall result has been risk aversion, in the ranks and among the leadership, with the public paying the penalty. Sir Hugh Orde, the head of Acpo, who is trying to claim the credit for this week’s “surge”, wrote in the Guardian this week that British policing is “premised on human rights”. It isn’t. Sir Robert Peel invented it more than 150 years before Tony Blair injected human rights into British law. British policing is founded on exercising the minimum use of force required to keep the peace. Thanks to the importation of “human rights” (from European countries where, oddly, the police are more brutal than our own), keeping the peace has become much, much harder.
 
We all saw the police hanging back from making arrests during this week’s troubles. The reason is that, under current rules, arrests are a bureaucratic and legal nightmare. They require at least two officers and inordinate processing time. If there is “insufficient evidence”, the police can be sued for false imprisonment. The scenes all over England this week were uniquely appalling in their scale, but in the character of the police response they were very like what happens in hundreds of towns every Saturday night. Young people tip out of the pubs behaving badly, and the police, worried by what they might be accused of, just watch them. It is visible proof of the old saying that for evil to triumph it is necessary only for good men to do nothing.
 
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2011, 07:07:35 PM »


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/print/274492

August 13, 2011 7:00 A.M.
The New Britannia
Big Government corrodes the integrity of a people, catastrophically.





The trick in this business is not to be right too early. A week ago I released my new book — the usual doom’n’gloom stuff — and, just as the sensible prudent moderate chaps were about to dismiss it as hysterical and alarmist, Standard & Poor’s went and downgraded the United States from its AAA rating for the first time in history. Obligingly enough they downgraded it to AA+, which happens to be the initials of my book: After America. Okay, there’s not a lot of “+” in that, but you can’t have everything.
 
But the news cycle moves on, and a day or two later, the news shows were filled with scenes of London ablaze, as gangs of feral youths trashed and looted their own neighborhoods. Several readers wrote to taunt me for not having anything to say on the London riots. As it happens, Chapter Five of my book is called “The New Britannia: The Depraved City.” You have to get up pretty early in the morning to beat me to Western civilization’s descent into barbarism. Anyone who’s read it will fully understand what’s happening on the streets of London. The downgrade and the riots are part of the same story: Big Government debauches not only a nation’s finances but its human capital, too.
 
As part of my promotional efforts, I chanced to find myself on a TV show the other day with an affable liberal who argued that what Obama needed to do was pass another trillion-dollar — or, better yet, multi-trillion — stimulus. I think not. The London rioters are the children of dependency, the progeny of Big Government: They have been marinated in “stimulus” their entire lives. There is literally nothing you can’t get Her Majesty’s Government to pay for. From page 205 of my book:
 
“A man of 21 with learning disabilities has been granted taxpayers’ money to fly to Amsterdam and have sex with a prostitute.”
 
Hey, why not? “He’s planning to do more than just have his end away,” explained his social worker. “Refusing to offer him this service would be a violation of his human rights.”
 
Why do they need a Dutch hooker? Just another hardworking foreigner doing the jobs Britons won’t do? Given the reputation of English womanhood, you’d have thought this would be the one gig that wouldn’t have to be outsourced overseas.
 
While the British Treasury is busy writing checks to Amsterdam prostitutes, one-fifth of children are raised in homes in which no adult works — in which the weekday ritual of rising, dressing, and leaving for gainful employment is entirely unknown. One tenth of the adult population has done not a day’s work since Tony Blair took office on May 1, 1997.
 
If you were born into such a household, you’ve been comprehensively “stimulated” into the dead-eyed zombies staggering about the streets this last week: pathetic inarticulate sub-humans unable even to grunt the minimal monosyllables to BBC interviewers desperate to appease their pathologies. C’mon, we’re not asking much: just a word or two about how it’s all the fault of government “cuts” like the leftie columnists argue. And yet even that is beyond these baying beasts. The great-grandparents of these brutes stood alone against a Fascist Europe in that dark year after the fall of France in 1940. Their grandparents were raised in one of the most peaceful and crime-free nations on the planet. Were those Englishmen of the mid-20th century to be magically transplanted to London today, they’d assume they were in some fantastical remote galaxy. If Charlton Heston was horrified to discover the Planet of the Apes was his own, Britons are beginning to realize that the remote desert island of Lord of the Flies is, in fact, located just off the coast of Europe in the north-east Atlantic. Within two generations of the Blitz and the Battle of Britain, a significant proportion of the once-free British people entrusted themselves to social rewiring by liberal compassionate Big Government and thereby rendered themselves paralytic and unemployable save for non-speaking parts in Rise of the Planet of the Apes. And even that would likely be too much like hard work.
 
Here’s another line from my book:
 
“In Britain, everything is policed except crime.”
 


Her Majesty’s cowed and craven politically correct constabulary stand around with their riot shields and Robocop gear as young rioters lob concrete through store windows to steal the electronic toys that provide their only non-narcotic or alcoholic amusement. I chanced to be in Piccadilly for the springtime riots when the police failed to stop the mob from smashing the windows of the Ritz and other upscale emporia, so it goes without saying that they wouldn’t lift a finger to protect less prestigious private property from thugs. Some of whom are as young as nine years old. And girls.
 
Yet a police force all but entirely useless when it comes to preventing crime or maintaining public order has time to police everything else. When Sam Brown observed en passant to a mounted policeman on Cornmarket Street in Oxford, “Do you know your horse is gay?”, he was surrounded within minutes by six officers and a fleet of patrol cars, handcuffed, tossed in the slammer overnight, and fined 80 pounds. Mr. Brown’s “homophobic comments,” explained a spokesmoron for Thames Valley Police, were “not only offensive to the policeman and his horse, but any members of the general public in the area.” The zealous crackdown on Sam Brown’s hippohomophobia has not been replicated in the present disturbances. Anyone who has so much as glanced at British policing policy over the last two decades would be hard pressed to argue which party on the streets of London, the thugs or the cops, is more irredeemably stupid.
 
This is the logical dead end of the Nanny State. When William Beveridge laid out his blueprint for the British welfare regime in 1942, his goal was the “abolition of want” to be accomplished by “co-operation between the State and the individual.” In attempting to insulate the citizenry from life’s vicissitudes, Sir William succeeded beyond his wildest dreams. As I write in my book: “Want has been all but abolished. Today, fewer and fewer Britons want to work, want to marry, want to raise children, want to lead a life of any purpose or dignity.” The United Kingdom has the highest drug use in Europe, the highest incidence of sexually transmitted disease, the highest number of single mothers, the highest abortion rate. Marriage is all but defunct, except for William and Kate, fellow toffs, upscale gays, and Muslims. From page 204:
 
“For Americans, the quickest way to understand modern Britain is to look at what LBJ’s Great Society did to the black family and imagine it applied to the general population”.  
 
I believe it is regarded as a sign of insanity to start quoting oneself, but at the risk of trying your patience I’ll try one more, because it’s the link between America’s downgraded debt and Britain’s downgraded citizenry:
 
“The evil of such a system is not the waste of money but the waste of people.”
 
Big Government means small citizens: It corrodes the integrity of a people, catastrophically. Within living memory, the city in flames on our TV screens every night governed a fifth of the earth’s surface and a quarter of its population. When you’re imperialists on that scale, there are bound to be a few mishaps along the way. But nothing the British Empire did to its subject peoples has been as total and catastrophic as what a post-great Britain did to its own.
 
There are lessons for all of us there.
 
— Mark Steyn, a National Review columnist, is author of After America: Get Ready for Armageddon.
Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 777


« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2011, 10:58:46 AM »

Quote
Since the war began in Iraq, I bet more people have died in LA County by gunshot wounds than the number of American soldier's by
combat wounds in Iraq.

It's really quite deplorable.  
 JDN
Woof,
 Yes it is deplorable but you seem to want law abiding citizens that have to live in areas like this to be unarmed and defenseless. I know, I know, you fantasize that a complete gun ban here in the U.S. would disarm everyone and solve the problem. Everyone would just turn in their guns and anyone that had an illegal firearm would be arrested. My question is since there seems to be no limit as to the number of criminals in LA with illegal firearms, why aren't they being arrested now? Besides that even if it were possible to collect every firearm in the country, there would be such a blackmarket demand for them that they would be flowing over the border like bales of pot. There are plenty of laws on the books and none of them stops criminals from being criminals. There are laws against murder that hold much worse punishment than breaking a gun ban law would but that doesn't seem to slow them down. We have police departments that are loaded for bear and look for all the world like elite military units nowadays but about the best they can do for a murder victim is to protect the crime scene and outline their body with chalk.
 I don't know what the answer is to all the crime and violence or how to stop it but I know how to protect myself and family. Firearms are a big part that knowhow.
                                             P.C.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 11:06:21 AM by prentice crawford » Logged

G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2011, 11:00:23 AM »

Mexico has strict gun laws.
Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 777


« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2011, 11:07:38 AM »

Woof,
 Yeah, they have strick drug and immigration laws too.
                          P.C.
Logged

G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2011, 11:12:53 AM »

Actually they decriminalized drug use a few years ago.
Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 777


« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2011, 01:14:11 PM »

Woof,
 For possession of small amounts for personal use, yes.
               P.C.
Logged

Spartan Dog
Power User
***
Posts: 96


« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2011, 01:45:51 PM »

Glad to see Point Dog contributing to the conversation.

I too was glad to read your post, Point Dog, and I was also glad to read see some encouragement by Guro Crafty and others, regarding getting other viewpoints.  There were also posts here, by some who disagreed, but nonetheless came across as welcoming a different viewpoint, and the chance to debate the issue.

There also seemed to be a minority who disagreed, and came across quite differently.  Guess this is why people like Point Dog and myself don't much bother posting in such discussions.
Logged

Dog Brothers Training Group, Athens, Greece
http://www.dogbrothers.gr/
Point Dog
Power User
***
Posts: 98


« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2011, 02:25:04 PM »


I too was glad to read your post, Point Dog, and I was also glad to read see some encouragement by Guro Crafty and others, regarding getting other viewpoints.  There were also posts here, by some who disagreed, but nonetheless came across as welcoming a different viewpoint, and the chance to debate the issue.

There also seemed to be a minority who disagreed, and came across quite differently.  Guess this is why people like Point Dog and myself don't much bother posting in such discussions.


Hey C-Spartan Wink (I still love that name!  grin )

What happened here is small potatoes compared to what you guys have had recently.  I try not to judge other countries/cultures because I'm not there and not living the problems.  When I saw the severity of what happened in Greece I thought that it would never happen here Wink [Still hasn't, but it certainly looks possible now]

Though I'd add that the Greek protests were political, whereas the London problems were criminal.
Logged
Point Dog
Power User
***
Posts: 98


« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2011, 02:33:34 PM »

I also meant to ask the US posters (and any other nationality too).  Out of curiosity how much sports related violence does your country suffer? Baring in mind that the US is probably 50 different countries all with different flavours...

I ask because in London, Birminingham, Manchester and Glasgow (others too, but they're the worst) we have a lot of football (soccer) related 'tribal' violence.  This is something that our Police are very experienced in dealing with.  If you look at the violence in the London riots compared to what happens when there is a Birmingham derby, you have to ask why it was allowed to continue? (Police are very effective at containing the football thugs)
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2011, 02:46:14 PM »

PD,

Not that violence is unknown at sports venues here (drunk people with different allegances packed in close proximity can result in such things) but we don't have anything that approximates europe's "football hooligans", with the possible exception of the fans of the Raiders (American football) team.

I attended a lecture from a London Met Constable years ago that detailed the intelligence gathering and exchange between european police agencies tracking the "Hooligans" as they traveled to different venues for matches. The closest thing we have to that here is how some correctional facilities here separate known rival gang members in custody.
Logged
Spartan Dog
Power User
***
Posts: 96


« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2011, 02:46:53 PM »

Hey C-Spartan Wink (I still love that name!  grin )

 smiley

What happened here is small potatoes compared to what you guys have had recently.  I try not to judge other countries/cultures because I'm not there and not living the problems.  When I saw the severity of what happened in Greece I thought that it would never happen here Wink [Still hasn't, but it certainly looks possible now]

Though I'd add that the Greek protests were political, whereas the London problems were criminal.

What is happening in Greece is, as you know, different than the UK riots.   There are serious underlying social problems here, as compared to the UK and US.  These in turn have greatly contributed to the economic mess.  Things now are quiet only because most people here are on holiday (I wonder how it is that they still can afford it).  This fall there may be further disturbances.  

Yes, the focus here was "political", but I think it might more accurately be described as economic.   There are specific segments of society here who are at the forefront of the "disturbances" - trade union activists, unemployed young "anarchists", etc...These people tend to be the ones who actually try and goad the police into fighting.  The majority of people are upset, may protest, make noise, but the ones actually throwing the moltov cocktails and confronting the riot police are not a sizable proportion of those actually demonstrating.

I am reluctant to say much on the Greek situation, because there are several segments of Greek society who are partly responsible for the mess, each in different ways.  But to get back to the topic of this thread, Greece may not be in full-fledged social breakdown, especially now that it got another loan, but the repercussions are going to be felt for years, and I think that there is great potential here for further rioting, though different in character than that in the UK.

I can only hope that in the long term, at least some lessons will be learned.  Over and out Point-Dog  grin
Logged

Dog Brothers Training Group, Athens, Greece
http://www.dogbrothers.gr/
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31556


« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2011, 03:56:33 PM »

Glad to see Point Dog and Dog Kostas in the conversation.

I would raise the question that even when we note that the Greek riots and the British riots are arguably different in nature, is there not a certain commonality with the French riots/car burnings, even though the group involved there is defined by religion?

In other words, does the multi-culti progressive socialism of the Euro models tend to produce this result?   

Also to wonder-- where do things go from here?

Separate point:  As much as I enjoy lively political conversation, remember we are also allowed to examine unorganized militia issues and practical matters e.g. a tennis racket should be able to pass muster in an intensely NPE (non-permissive environment) like Great Britain, but should serve as a rather effective stick.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31556


« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2011, 09:24:42 PM »

I always wondered about carrying a fire extinguisher in the car and should a chaotic situation develop wherein my truck was enveloped simply spraying everybody within range.   Does anybody know about whether this would run the risk of damaging the eyes of the nefarious n'er do wells?
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2011, 09:34:13 PM »

I always wondered about carrying a fire extinguisher in the car and should a chaotic situation develop wherein my truck was enveloped simply spraying everybody within range.   Does anybody know about whether this would run the risk of damaging the eyes of the nefarious n'er do wells?


It is possible. Frankly, I'd be more than willing to stomp on the gas to evade the scenario, including running criminal assailants over. Using an extinguisher is a waste of time and resources.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31556


« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2011, 12:19:22 AM »

The intended meaning of "wherein my truck was enveloped" is that I am blocked from departing.
Logged
Bambi
Guest
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2011, 04:31:29 AM »

I also meant to ask the US posters (and any other nationality too).  Out of curiosity how much sports related violence does your country suffer? Baring in mind that the US is probably 50 different countries all with different flavours...

We're right dext door and we don't get the same threat level, fans aren't segregated en route to the grounds or in the grounds.  Some local soccer teams will attract  the kind of morons that the english/scottish firms do but the attendance figures for local soccer is really small so it's rarely a big deal when they do kick off, this would be as bad as it gets:



I thought that hooliganism in the UK had dwindled due to the advent of season tickets etc or is it just that the policing has contained the problem?

Actually, now that I think of it the only time I've seen any fans kick off at a sporting event here, was an MMA show  cheesy
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2011, 06:04:23 AM »

The intended meaning of "wherein my truck was enveloped" is that I am blocked from departing.

Blocked by what?
Logged
Point Dog
Power User
***
Posts: 98


« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2011, 06:46:52 AM »


I thought that hooliganism in the UK had dwindled due to the advent of season tickets etc or is it just that the policing has contained the problem?

Actually, now that I think of it the only time I've seen any fans kick off at a sporting event here, was an MMA show  cheesy

Thanks.  I was using soccer as an example as it's our 'biggest' sport.  I suppose in the US the analogy would be 'American Football' (sorry, just can't bring myself to call it just 'Football' Wink ), baseball or basketball.

Season tickets or not, you still get nobs Wink  I worked security at a few Hearts/Hibs games in Edinburgh (a slightly toned down version of a Celtic/Rangers game in Glasgow).  I was VERY impressed with the Police tactics, the use of horses and dogs.  Their snatch and grab methods of specific people from the crowd were smooth!
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31556


« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2011, 08:30:48 AM »

@GM

"The intended meaning of "wherein my truck was enveloped" is that I am blocked from departing."

"Blocked by what?"

Other cars on all sides e.g. at a red light.
=======

@PD:  " I was VERY impressed with the Police tactics, the use of horses and dogs.  Their snatch and grab methods of specific people from the crowd were smooth!"

Please describe smiley
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2011, 11:06:19 AM »

Crafty,

Do you make sure to leave room in front of your vehicle? Sure, dense urban traffic makes things much more difficult, but if you are sure to stop where you can see the rear tires of the vehicle in front of you touch the roadway, you have room to manuver in an emergency.
Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 777


« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2011, 12:25:20 PM »

Woof,
 From the "members only" site he already has that info; what he's talking about is the worse case scenario of being intentionally surrounded, trapped and mobbed. If it's that bad I guess you could set yourself on fire and just run amok among them. evil
 Oops! Did I mention that the "members only" site has info not shared here? wink
                 P.C.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 02:52:44 PM by prentice crawford » Logged

Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31556


« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2011, 08:48:06 PM »

GM:  Remind me to tell you of the carjacking I foiled using exactly this technique.  In the meantime, please don't be obtuse  cheesy  

PS: PC is quite correct  wink grin
Logged
Point Dog
Power User
***
Posts: 98


« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2011, 06:15:47 AM »


@PD:  " I was VERY impressed with the Police tactics, the use of horses and dogs.  Their snatch and grab methods of specific people from the crowd were smooth!"

Please describe smiley

In essence the mounted officers (who have light armour on horses with certain areas protected) are the blunt object that drives a wedge into the crowd (often from different starting points to target a certain part of the crowd), are followed in the corridor they create by canine officers and riot 'snatch' officers.  The dogs act as a 'finer' tool than the horses to isolate small groups and drive them out of the crowd into Police lines.  I assume the riot officers (who have no animal) are there for even 'finer' tuning if required.

A story:

I was working at a Hibs/Hearts game (LOTS of sectarian violence), I'm working the queue for the turnstyles carrying out searches for weapons/booze and explaining to an elderly couple that it would be a discrimination to them NOT to search them Wink (A big history of 'retired' gang members in their pensionable years smuggling in weapons for their grandkids).

A shout goes out from the Police lines (who filter people towards to the turnstyles) "GET HIM!"

A lone man is legging it from the Police line towards where we are carrying out the search.  Myself and the two men working with me position ourselves to intercept, there is a definate 'Hell yes, game on!' attitude to the three of us (we've been searching people in the freezing cold for over 40mins by this point).

Just as we think we're going to get to do something, a horse gallops out of nowhere and sideswipes him into the wall, pinning him there.  This was an awesome thing, as he was a couple of metres from the wall to start with!  Three canine officers appear and whilst the horse 'smears' off of him the dogs come in to corner him against the wall.  A 'gap' appears that he tries to escape through but a Police van has now done a 'skidding slide' into the mouth of the gap with the back doors open.  The dogs chase him into rear of the van where it appeared three officers were waiting to 'help' him escape the dogs  grin

We were both amazed at the smoothness and speed (seriously, from the shout to the van leaving, less than 20seconds), and disappointed that we never got to put a boot in Wink
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31556


« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2011, 01:59:32 PM »

Fascinating!
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2011, 06:18:37 PM »

GM:  Remind me to tell you of the carjacking I foiled using exactly this technique.  In the meantime, please don't be obtuse  cheesy  

PS: PC is quite correct  wink grin

Just seeking clarity.   wink
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31556


« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2011, 12:22:59 AM »

Not really grin

Moving along now , , , here's a moment of contrast (for the record, I suspect the US would fare equally poorly in the comparison) :

Japan Earthquake: Ethical Residents Return $78 Million From Rubble

 

First Posted: 8/18/11 04:45 PM ET

 

While looting often becomes an issue post-disaster, it's been the exact opposite in Japan.

 

Since the March earthquake and tsunami that leveled much of Japan, thousands of wallets containing a total of $48 million in cash have washed ashore -- and been turned in, ABC reports. In addition, 5,700 safes containing $30 million in cash also have turned up.

 

Ryuji Ito, professor emeritus at Japan's Yokohama City University, tells the Daily Mail that these acts of integrity are simply reflective of the culture:

 

"...The fact that a hefty 2.3 billion yen in cash has been returned to its owners shows the high level of ethical awareness in the Japanese people."

 

And doing the right thing doesn't just end with the people who found the money. Japanese officials have also worked tirelessly to track down owners and return safes and other valuables.

 

Police in Miyagi prefecture searched for residents at evacuation centers and made their way through missing person reports and address forms at the post office, according to ABC. Police also met with mayors and called any cell phone numbers they could find.

 

Officials tell the news outlet that the difficulty lay in determining whether homes were gone and if the owners were actually still alive.

Logged
Tony Torre
Power User
***
Posts: 162


« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2011, 09:16:27 AM »

I witnessed the riots of the 70's, 80's and 90's here in Miami.  During the McDuffy riots they actually bused us out of school.  During the Mcduffy riots I learned many things.  First of all the scumbags are organized and pick their targets ahead of time.  Targets of opportunity will be taken advantage of immediately.  A teen age boy was sodomized by other teenage boys which precipitated the busing of kids out of our school.  The groups divided among racial and ethnics lines.  The rioters planned to loot, pillage, and burn the neighboring Cuban neighborhood.  They where met by a HIGHLY armed group causing them to return and burn their own neighborhood.  Everybody knew what was going on by word of mouth.  With cell phones and social media modern riots will probably be more widespread.  During the time of the L.A. riots we had our own here probably inspired by news footage. 

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31556


« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2011, 09:59:19 AM »

Being of a prior generation, this point about cell phones and social media is one that for me is easy to forget , , , During the Rodney King riots here in LA in the early 90s this was not a factor, but the next time the excrement hits the fan this will be a new variable the significance of which I cannot predict.
Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 6039


« Reply #90 on: September 01, 2011, 10:19:36 AM »

"...this point about cell phones and social media..."

I recall that the start of the Arab spring uprising in Tunisia was both triggered by crackdowns on social media and organized on them.
http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1210.msg45202#msg45202
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31556


« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2011, 10:24:07 AM »

The other possibility is of a breakdown in order that is triggered precisely by the breakdown of these things (worst case scenario due to EMP as a result of nuke detonation, or perhaps mere terrorism taking out a system or Chinese hacking or , , ,)

What happens if the internet itself goes off-line?
Logged
Tony Torre
Power User
***
Posts: 162


« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2011, 10:49:52 AM »

On the flip side cell phones and social media is also a great tool for the good guys.  In a shtf scenario getting reinforcements may be very useful.  In a grid down scenario cb's, walkie talkies or even bells or whistles could be very useful for sounding the alarm.  The Koreans in LA , the Turks in the UK and the Cubans in Miami where very effective because they where organized.  I think communication is a very powerful tool the civilian good guys very often overlook.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com
Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 6039


« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2011, 11:25:44 AM »

Avoiding a complete shutdown is one of the advantages of the internet's decentralized design loaded with redundancies and endless, alternate paths - which our benevolent government would like to streamline for us.

"What happens if the internet itself goes off-line?"

That is something like the Y2K scenario; we were told that water and electricity would shutdown if computers went down.  We don't know exactly because it didn't happen then.  If all internet went down, the world we now know would stop for a moment and people would be forced to get up and walk out their front door to talk with other people.   wink
---
Excellent points by Tony.  The next generation raised with social media seem highly capable of staying organized. I'm still not clear on how you can broadcast all the right information to the right people without also informing the wrong people.

Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #94 on: September 01, 2011, 01:57:43 PM »

Being of a prior generation, this point about cell phones and social media is one that for me is easy to forget , , , During the Rodney King riots here in LA in the early 90s this was not a factor, but the next time the excrement hits the fan this will be a new variable the significance of which I cannot predict.


It will make the predators much more dangerous.
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12086


« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2011, 02:00:28 PM »

The other possibility is of a breakdown in order that is triggered precisely by the breakdown of these things (worst case scenario due to EMP as a result of nuke detonation, or perhaps mere terrorism taking out a system or Chinese hacking or , , ,)

What happens if the internet itself goes off-line?


For the 'net to go down, you'd really have to have a "TEOTWAWKI" scenario.
Logged
Tony Torre
Power User
***
Posts: 162


« Reply #96 on: September 01, 2011, 03:21:39 PM »

DougMacG,

With cb or walkie talkie type communications using coded messages.  An even simpler method is raising an alarm with a bell or whistle or some other audible signal.  Some time ago the women of my community where being harassed by a pervert.  I armed them with pepper gas canisters and whistles.  The goal being spray and whistle to get each others attention.  They actually took it one step further and when the whistle was finally blown they came running with clubs and beat him quite unmercifully.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!