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Author Topic: When the excrement hits the fan, mass killings, etc  (Read 2491 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: April 07, 2013, 01:05:52 PM »

Woof All:

What to do when the excrement hits the fan?  

CD
==============================================
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/us/in-a-shift-police-advise-taking-an-active-role-to-counter-mass-attacks.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130407
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 07:04:46 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
G M
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 08:25:15 PM »

Woof All:

What to do when the excrement hits the fan? 

CD
==============================================
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/us/in-a-shift-police-advise-taking-an-active-role-to-counter-mass-attacks.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130407

1. If possible, shoot the threat to the ground.

2. Try to avoid being shot by responding officers.

3. Render aid to the injured, using triage to select the most viable victims.

4. Be a good witness, even if you can't do any of the above.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 10:35:32 PM »

Any tips on effectuating #2?
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G M
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 07:12:24 PM »

Any tips on effectuating #2?

If something bad is going down, use your cell to dial 911, and start feeding intel to dispatch in real time as you move to act. You should be sure to ID yourself and give your physical description so hopefully it gets passed on to the responding officers. If the bad guy(s) whack you, at least the inital responder have some idea what's going on.

Don't be visibly armed when responding officers get there. Meaning reholster, if possible.

If you are confronted by officers, comply. This is not the time to debate while being taken down at gunpoint. Drop your gun. I don't care if it's a $5,000 Nighthawk Custom. You can buy a new gun, you can't buy a new head.
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jcordova
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 11:25:43 PM »

Good points GM.  True, make sure yiu I'D yourself when calling 911 that way the incoming officer know what that officer (undercover, uniformed or off duty) is wearing.  And about the threat, be she needs to be put down first.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 11:24:03 AM »

Good point Jesus about asking if the responding officers will be uniformed or not-- I had not thought of that.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 03:52:39 PM »

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/us/las-vegas-shooting-live-updates.html?emc=edit_na_20171003&nl=breaking-news&nlid=49641193&ref=cta&_r=0
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DougMacG
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2017, 10:14:44 AM »

Somewhere in this discussion of the mass murder where people are still dying it should be noted that, like during 9/11, while people were frantically racing for any possible exit, law enforcement and first responders were entering the area under fire.  Words can't describe that level of courage and valor nor express our thankfulness for it.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2017, 07:15:24 AM »

AMEN!!!
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DougMacG
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2017, 08:50:37 AM »

AMEN!!!

Famous people reading the forum(?), I was pleased to see the President include this in his remarks yesterday.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2017, 07:06:06 PM »

http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/03/democrats-have-no-idea-how-to-prevent-mass-shootings/
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2017, 07:32:21 PM »

https://worldtruth.tv/five-more-things-that-dont-add-up-about-the-las-vegas-massacre/
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2017, 11:29:25 AM »

As the closing act of the three-day, open-air Route 91 Harvest Music Festival took the stage the evening of Oct. 1 on the Las Vegas Strip, a 64-year-old man used a sledgehammer to smash out two windows in his suite at the adjacent Mandalay Bay hotel. His perch on the 32nd floor gave him a clear field of fire on the 22,000 or so concertgoers below. He took aim with one in the arsenal of guns in his room and opened fire. The shooter's intent was clear – he wanted to create as much carnage as possible. The crowd below remained oblivious to the threat 100 meters (328 feet) above and 400 meters away until bullets began raining down.

The attack, which left 59 people dead and more than 500 hurt, was certainly well-planned. The shooter, who had occupied the suite on Sept. 28, had methodically ferried in weapons concealed in luggage until he had amassed 23 guns, including several rifles with high-capacity magazines, and thousands of rounds of ammunition. Photographs from the scene indicate that at least two of the rifles were semi-automatic AR-platform guns that had been equipped with legal "bump fire" stocks that allowed them to operate at a rate mimicking automatic gunfire.

The massed crowd offered an easy target. Indeed, recruits in the armed forces are trained to shoot at human-size targets at 400 meters using iron sights, so targeting the throng below at that distance did not require advanced marksmanship. Given his elevated position, unobstructed view of the crowd and large arsenal, it is not surprising that the attacker was able to inflict such mayhem, whatever his motive for doing so might have been. Moreover, the bloodbath that followed provided a blueprint for other killers to follow, providing many important lessons for security professionals and ordinary citizens alike to heed.
Expect Copycat Attacks to Follow

Given the high death toll in Las Vegas, copycat attacks are bound to follow. One of the factors that drives terrorism, after all, is the success of past attacks.

Early anarchist ideologues saw terrorism as a form of propaganda. In 1885, Johann Most famously declared, "we preach not only action in and for itself, but also action as propaganda." Indeed, in many ways, it seems as if successful attacks are able to influence future attacks more than simple propaganda does. For instance, even though al Qaeda began calling for grassroots jihadists to conduct vehicular assaults in the second edition of its Inspire magazine, published in 2010, and despite the ease of conducting such attacks, only six were recorded outside Israel between 2010 and 2016. However, since the deadly and well-publicized Bastille Day attack in Nice, France, in 2016, at least 10 vehicular assaults have been committed by jihadists in North America and Europe (as well as two others not connected with jihadists). Success, and the heavy media coverage that accompanies it, clearly breeds imitation.

Because of this, we can expect to see more attempts to shoot at crowds from elevated positions. The tactic does not pose a threat just to music festivals like the one in Las Vegas, but rather to any large crowd, whether gathered for parades, sporting events, rallies, protests or celebrations — or even at a tourist site. Indeed in many cities, even everyday commutes create a large, vulnerable crowd at major intersections and travel hubs.
Can the Threat be Mitigated?

Security planners for large events, especially official high-profile ones designated national security events because they are at high risk of being targeted by terrorists or criminals, may have the resources to conduct extensive pre-event preparations, including sweeping for potential threats and positioning countersniper teams. However, even the federal agencies in charge of securing such events will have to rethink some of their standard assumptions to now account for snipers inside buildings with windows not designed to open. Furthermore, the concert attack presented a wrinkle that even one standard protective method probably would have missed. A review of the Mandalay Bay's guest registry in a search for potential threats likely would not have flagged the shooter, as there was little in his history to indicate he might take such an action.

But outside major events, most security managers simply do not have the resources to devote to those kinds of arrangements. In the Las Vegas case, the crowd, and not the concert itself, was the target. In similar situations, there may be absolutely no link, such as a previous threat, between an attacker and an event, increasing the difficulty of anticipating that kind of trouble. In a typical city, there are simply too many events during an average week for law enforcement at the local, or even state, level to cover with enhanced security. Even if tight security can be provided at some events, a determined attacker could simply shift to a softer target.

This reality puts even more emphasis on the need for the authorities to focus on the terrorist attack cycle, giving them the opportunity to detect when a would-be attacker is conducting surveillance on a target, acquiring weapons or getting ready to act, all points at which a plot is vulnerable to disruption before an attack proceeds. Further, the Las Vegas shooter, a white, 64-year-old millionaire, does not fit the profile most people picture when thinking about a terrorist or mass murderer. Therefore, this case presents a prime example of why counterterrorism efforts should focus on the "how" rather than the "who."
What Can Ordinary People Do?

Two weeks ago, I discussed how people can help protect themselves when they are in a crowd that is targeted for an attack. If you are in a vulnerable location, to increase your odds of escaping if an attack erupts, it is critical to remain aware of your surroundings, stay alert for trouble and quickly recognize if an assault is unfolding. But most important, you should already have mentally prepared yourself to take immediate action to get out of the kill zone once you are aware of the danger. Reviewing some of the videos of the Las Vegas attack, it was easy to see the difference between people who took immediate action after they recognized the threat and those who simply froze. Indeed, instead of running for cover, some people just stood there, shooting video with their cell phones. One person was shown actually jumping up and waving his arms as if to taunt the shooter. In another widely circulated video, a man made an obscene gesture at the attacker. Don't be these people: Get out of the kill zone immediately and find cover.

Even in media interviews of the survivors, there is a marked difference between the accounts of those who simply dropped to the ground immobile and those who ran to find cover — and those who repeatedly ran back into danger to grab the immobile or wounded and move them to cover.

Besides shock, first responders and others who came to the aid of the wounded had to deal with extensive bleeding. In fact, bleeding is the primary cause of death when people are hurt by gunshots or shrapnel in bombings. Beyond knowing how to administer basic first aid, it is important to have materials with which to effectively do so. I carry a tourniquet, hemostatic bandage and chest seal in a small bag in my briefcase every day. I also carry kits equipped with those items in each of my vehicles. While it is certainly possible to create an improvised tourniquet using shoelaces or a belt, why rely on makeshift methods when genuine emergency supplies are so inexpensive and light to carry? Being prepared will not only allow you to treat yourself or a member of your family if needed, but it will also perhaps save a life in the aftermath of an attack.

We do live in a dangerous world, but honestly, at no time in history has civilization been free of those who would hurt or kill others. It's a fact of life today that just as automobile accidents and disease pose a threat to life, terrorists and mass murderers will target innocents. Recognizing that these attacks are possible, however, does not mean that you must live in fear. In fact, paranoia is counterproductive to a healthy and sustainable level of personal security. However, by understanding the threats and developing the proper mindset, people can remain resilient in the face of them.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2017, 01:02:24 PM »


From Broken Home to Real-Estate Riches: The Life of the Las Vegas Shooter
Stephen Paddock did not fit the profile of a typical mass killer, a problem confounding authorities seeking a motive
Stephen Paddock, top center, in a Francis Polytechnic High School Varsity Tennis Team photo in the 1970 yearbook. Francis Polytechnic High School
Link copied…
By Valerie Bauerlein,
Ian Lovett and
Cameron McWhirter
Oct. 5, 2017 5:29 p.m. ET
646 COMMENTS

LAS VEGAS—More than a half century ago, a bank robber held authorities in an armed stand-off in downtown Las Vegas until federal agents shot out the windows of his car.

Benjamin Paddock, who was later described on his FBI “Most Wanted” flier as a psychopath with suicidal tendencies, surrendered a few miles from the high-rise hotel where last weekend his oldest son became one of America’s deadliest killers.

Stephen Paddock was 7 years old at the time of his father’s capture in 1960. It was unclear whether he ever saw him again.

Paddock’s mother moved her four boys to Southern California and, like many before them, began a new life. Stephen played on his high school tennis team in the San Fernando Valley and graduated from a Cal State campus with a business degree. He had steady jobs and later made his fortune in real estate—he was a multimillionaire, one of his brothers said—which afforded him a comfortable retirement as a high-stakes gambler.

His life after that traumatic start was by most appearances a Golden State success, leaving authorities to untangle the confounding profile of a killer responsible for the deadliest mass shooting in the U.S. in at least 50 years.

At 64 years old, Paddock didn’t have the usual profile of a mass shooter. He left virtually no footprint on social media, had no criminal record and, his youngest brother Eric Paddock said, revealed no particular ideology. Interviews with law-enforcement officials, casino employees he encountered and two of his brothers, reveal an intensely private, self-contained man.


After his father’s arrest, he grew up in Sun Valley, a largely working-class Los Angeles suburb. He was married as a young man and twice divorced. He began buying rental properties around Los Angeles in the 1990s, records show, a decade that sent prices soaring.

Though Paddock had few social ties, he maintained relationships with a small set of people, who described him as loyal and generous. He sent cookies to his 89-year-old mother in Florida, and he treated his youngest brother and nephew to $1,000 dinners in Las Vegas, the brother said.

Yet he moved often, to look-alike houses, one after another, in a string of retirement communities in sunny places. He wore gloves when he drove and kept his window shades drawn.

Nearly 60 years after his father’s arrest, Paddock wired tens of thousands of dollars to his long-term girlfriend, authorities said, and checked into one of his regular haunts, the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino, with $20,000 worth of weapons.

A few minutes after 10 p.m. Sunday, he broke through the window of his room and began firing at concertgoers below, killing 58 people and wounding nearly 500 others. Paddock killed himself before police could arrest him, officials say. Leaked crime-scene photos show him laid out with a blast to the forehead.

Law-enforcement officials, family members and his girlfriend have said they are struggling to figure out what drove Paddock to kill, including what, if any role, his father’s life played. Investigators are examining his mental-health history, finances and whether he had any help in the massacre.

Authorities have seized computers from his home in Mesquite, Nev., 90 miles from Las Vegas, and are combing through his communications and travel history. A federal official said Thursday that Paddock’s girlfriend expressed concerns about his mental health, especially in recent months.

“This is a horror story in every possible way,” said Eric Paddock, of Orlando, Fla. “How the hell does this happen?”

A new start

When Stephen Paddock’s father was arrested in 1960, federal agents raided the family’s new one-story home in a middle-class Tucson, Ariz., neighborhood. Two of his brothers were toddlers; Eric was an infant. Neighbors worried Stephen was old enough to understand, so they took him swimming as a distraction, according to newspaper stories at the time.

Their mother, Irene Hudson, soon moved the family to Southern California, telling her sons their dad died in a car accident. It was a story that two of the brothers said they believed for decades.

By the early 1960s, the family had settled in the east San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles, and Ms. Paddock worked as a secretary.

“We were never close as a family,” said Patrick Paddock, the second oldest son. “I wasn’t close to any of my brothers, even growing up.”

While their mother was at work, the boys fended for themselves. They all grew big, said Patrick Paddock, who is 6’5” and 250 pounds. Their mother gave them chores around the house, including some cooking and cleaning. For fun, he said, the brothers would slide their dogs down a well-waxed hall.

Eric Paddock said his older brother Stephen was “like a dad surrogate,” who sometimes took him camping.

In school, Stephen Paddock showed an aptitude for math and “engineering-type things,” said Richard Alarcon, a classmate at Francis Polytechnic High School in the 1970s, who became a Los Angeles city councilman.


As a high school junior, Paddock played on the varsity tennis team and appears, straight-faced and shaggy-haired, in “The Student,” the school yearbook.

Stewart Kops, 65, who appeared next to Paddock in the yearbook’s team photo, said he didn’t remember him: “He was either not a good tennis player, or very quiet.”

The Paddock brothers for years accepted that their father was dead, said Patrick Paddock. But Benjamin Paddock was alive, all 6’4” of him, escaping from prison before he was recaptured in 1978. Their mother finally told them the truth about him when they were in their 20s, Patrick Paddock said.

It was a jarring revelation. Their father died years later, in 1998, after eventually serving his time and starting a new life in Texas. His sons still fume at the mention of his name.

“I hate my dad,” Eric Paddock said. Patrick Paddock said he never spoke with his father: “I was angry. I wanted nothing to do with him.” Bruce Paddock, the third-oldest brother, couldn’t be reached for comment. Patrick and Eric Paddock said they haven’t heard from Bruce in years.

Patrick said he hadn’t spoken to Stephen Paddock for about 20 years: “I had no reason to keep in touch. I’m not particularly social.”

Of all the brothers, Stephen Paddock seemed to get off to a fast start. He graduated from high school in 1971 and then from California State University, Northridge. He worked at the U.S. Postal Service, and in the 1980s, he worked as an agent for the Internal Revenue Service. He later audited defense contracts for Lockheed Corp. , which became Lockheed Martin Corp.

Paddock married twice, first in 1977, the year he graduated from college, and a second time in 1985, when he wed Peggy Okamoto, a high-school classmate. Neither one lasted.

In the early 1990s, Paddock began investing in California real estate, according to property records and his brothers. Paddock purchased rental properties and arranged some purchases through a trust set up in his mother’s name, including a Temecula, Calif., ranch house where she lived from the early 1990s to mid-2000s.
Stephen Paddock's houses in Mesquite, Nev., Reno, Nev., and Melbourne, Fla. Photos: REUTERS; Associated Press; Zuma Press

It wasn’t clear how much money Paddock netted from real estate, or how much accrued to his partners, which included his youngest brother. Eric Paddock said his brother moved their mother into a comfortable Florida home.

“Steve took care of the people he loved,” Eric Paddock said, sobbing outside his home this week. “The people he loved, he took care of.”

In 2014, Paddock and his partners sold a Dallas apartment complex for more than $8 million, according to the buyer, in what appeared his largest real-estate deal.
Poker play

Paddock began gambling at the Wynn casino not long after it opened in 2005, according to a person familiar with his gambling. He also frequented The Cosmopolitan, as well as casinos owned by Caesars Entertainment Corp. , the Atlantis in Reno, Nev., and others, according to people familiar with the matter.

He mostly played video poker. “It was like a job for him,” said his brother Eric. “He did it mathematically.”

Paddock gambled enough that casinos provided him complimentary suites, sushi and poolside services. At least one casino later cut back on the perks after his playing skills seemed to protect him from losing enough money to compensate for the freebies, several people familiar with the matter said.

He met Marilou Danley, a Filipina immigrant with Australian citizenship, around five years ago, and they soon became a couple. She was working as a hostess in the high-limit gambling room at the Atlantis in Reno.

Ms. Danley and Paddock moved from Reno to Florida, near his brother Eric and his mother in Orlando, then to a retirement community in Mesquite, Nev. “It was fun to hang out with Steve because he was a rich guy,” Eric Paddock said. “I’d get to partake of a bunch of thousands of dollars of comps on the hotel, but Steve would say, ‘Could you go get me a sandwich?’”

In Reno, Paddock liked to gamble late at night and off to the side, so as to avoid smokers. His hotel room at the casino would sometimes be outfitted with special air purifiers, a former casino employee says. He told people he moved to Mesquite because the dry weather was good for his health; he told his brother Eric he was leaving Florida in 2015 because of the humidity.

How Las Vegas Police Scrambled to Find the Gunman

In June, a doctor prescribed Paddock the antianxiety medication diazepam—better known by the brand name Valium—according to a report published in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, which cited records obtained from Nevada’s prescription monitoring program. The state pharmaceutical board said it couldn’t confirm the news report.

For the past several years, Paddock split time between a home on a quiet cul-de-sac in Mesquite and hotels in Las Vegas, about a 90-minute drive. He went to karaoke night some Tuesdays at Peggy Sue’s diner. His neighbors say they hardly knew him. His home backed up to a golf course, but he wasn’t known there, either.

In late 2016, Paddock began buying dozens of weapons that were later found in his homes and at the shooting scene, law-enforcement officials said. He never used them at the only shooting range within 20 miles of his home.

“It’s almost like he was trying to avoid people,” said Jason Shaw, part-owner of the nearby Smokin Gun Club shooting range.

Ms. Danley said in a statement through her lawyer that Paddock never “took any action that I was aware of, that I understood in any way to be a warning that something horrible like this was going to happen.”

Eric Paddock said he was in regular touch with Paddock, who had sent a text asking about his mother after Hurricane Irma hit Florida last month. The brothers, though, hadn’t spoken in about six months, he said.

“If I’d just called him back instead of texting, would I have heard something in his voice?” he said. “Would he have given up something?”
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2017, 03:30:28 PM »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/10/03/what-a-macho-gun-packing-instagram-star-did-when-he-was-caught-in-the-las-vegas-shooting/?utm_term=.b794d34323f0

OTOH former SEAL and Iraq War badass Ben "Mookie" Thomas speaks well of him and his actions in LV.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 04:03:55 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2018, 02:51:13 PM »

https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/deputies-called-to-suspected-shooters-home-39-times-over-seven-years/

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27207/here-are-seven-things-you-need-know-about-florida-hank-berrien?utm_medium=email&utm_content=021618-news&utm_campaign=position1

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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html?emc=edit_th_180216&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=49641193

after a bunch of POTH snideness, we get to this:

Mr. Cruz had no criminal history before the shootings, according to state law enforcement records. But his childhood was certainly troubled.

He spent much of it in a subdivision called Pine Tree Estates, on a lush, narrow street dotted with tropical plants and the occasional driveway basketball hoop. Mr. Cruz and his brother, Zachary, had been adopted, and were raised largely by their mother, Lynda Cruz, especially after their father, Roger P. Cruz, died suddenly in 2004 at the age of 67. Ms. Cruz died in November, and people who knew Nikolas said he had taken the loss hard.

Paul Gold, 45, said he lived next door to the Cruzes in 2009 and 2010 and stayed in touch with Lynda Cruz over the years.

“He had emotional problems and I believe he was diagnosed with autism,” Mr. Gold said of Nikolas Cruz. “He had trouble controlling his temper. He broke things. He would do that sometimes at our house when he lost his temper. But he was always very apologetic afterwards.”

He added: “He would sometimes be hitting his head and covering his ears. One time, I sent him home because he was misbehaving at our house and he took a golf club and smashed one of my trailers.”

He said that Mr. Cruz at one point had gone to a school for students with special needs. “Kids were really picking on him and would gang up on him and beat him up a little,” Mr. Gold said. “They ostracized him. He didn’t have many friends.”

He said that Mr. Cruz’s mother had done what she could to take care of him, and that the two had an extremely strong bond.

“His mother was his entire life and when he lost her, I believe that was it for the boy’s peace of mind,” he said.

Other neighbors said Mr. Cruz was a regular source of agitation. Helen Pasciolla said Lynda Cruz had called sheriff’s deputies to the house numerous times in an effort to keep Mr. Cruz in line. Craig Koblitz, 62, a yacht repairman who lives across the street, said some neighbors had suspected him of burglarizing a nearby house a few years ago.

About six years ago, Mr. Koblitz returned to his home to find Mr. Cruz scooping the fish from the pond in his palm-shaded front yard. He found it odd that the boy did not seem to express much surprise or guilt over being caught stealing.

Sarah Edelsberg, 16, remembered being frightened by Mr. Cruz when they were in middle school together. Mr. Cruz would walk by her and her friends and shout at them — randomly and menacingly, she said, with wild gestures of his arms.

She said he was small of build, wore a constant smirk and seemed eager to provoke confrontations. Teachers, she said, sometimes dealt with his behavior problems by forcing him to sit outside their portable classrooms.

The authorities said Mr. Cruz was expelled from Stoneman Douglas last year. Victoria Olvera, a 17-year-old junior, told The Associated Press that Mr. Cruz had gotten into a fight with his ex-girlfriend’s new boyfriend.

But Michael Goldfarb, whose 17-year-old son Bradley knew Mr. Cruz, said his son had told him Mr. Cruz was expelled for having a knife at school.

Last year, Mr. Goldfarb said, his son went on a three-day trip to a cabin in the Everglades with other young men, including Mr. Cruz. They were accompanied by a parent who owned the cabin.

Shooting weapons was a big part of the trip’s allure. There were two AR-15s on the trip, and Mr. Cruz brought one of them.

He bragged about how he had bought it from a pawnshop, Mr. Goldfarb said, speaking for his son. (The authorities said the gun had been legally purchased from a gun shop.)

The YouTube comment appeared last fall on the channel of Ben Bennight, a bail bondsman in Mississippi.

“I’m going to be a professional school shooter,” the Sept. 24 comment said, under the user name “nikolas cruz.”

Mr. Bennight took a screenshot and flagged it to YouTube, which removed the post. Then, Mr. Bennight said, he left a voice mail message at his local F.B.I. office alerting them about the comment.

Mr. Bennight, 36, said on Thursday that a pair of agents interviewed him the next morning. But the F.B.I. never learned who posted the comment.

“No other information was included in the comment which would indicate a particular time, location, or the true identity of the person who posted the comment,” the F.B.I. said in a statement on Thursday. The F.B.I. said it had conducted database reviews and other checks.

After his expulsion, Mr. Cruz took a job at a dollar store near his old school. Ms. Edelsberg said she had seen him there a number of times. Now, she said, he seemed less scary than friendly. He asked her for news from Stoneman Douglas.

On Thursday, Jordan Jereb, a leader of a white supremacist group based in North Florida, told The Associated Press that Mr. Cruz had joined the group, but later Mr. Jereb said that he did not know whether that was true.

The family of another schoolmate, the Snead family, took in Mr. Cruz because his friend felt badly that Mr. Cruz was now alone in the world, said Jim Lewis, a lawyer for the family. The Sneads had allowed Mr. Cruz to bring his gun with him to their house, insisting that he keep it in a lockbox.

On weekday mornings, Mr. Cruz usually got up to catch a ride to adult education courses that the Sneads had encouraged him to attend. But on Wednesday, he refused to get up, Mr. Lewis said.

Mr. Lewis said Mr. Cruz had said something to the effect of: “I don’t go to school on Valentine’s Day.”

Howard Finkelstein, the chief public defender in Broward County, said in an interview that Mr. Cruz’s legal team had not yet decided whether to mount an insanity defense. Prosecutors have not said whether they will seek the death penalty, but Mr. Finkelstein argued that Mr. Cruz should not be a candidate for execution, given his mental health history.

“Every red flag was there and nobody did anything,” Mr. Finkelstein said. “When we let one of our children fall off grid, when they are screaming for help in every way, do we have the right to kill them when we could have stopped it?”

On Wednesday, Mr. Cruz and the Sneads’ son were texting until 2:18 p.m., Mr. Lewis said — about five minutes before the first 911 calls about the shooting.

“But there was nothing crazy in the texts,” Mr. Lewis said.

Mr. Cruz arrived at the school in a small, gold-colored Uber, according to the booking report from the Broward County Sheriff’s Office. He was wearing a black hat, with a black duffel and a black backpack.

Within a minute there were gunshots.

Later, in custody, Mr. Cruz told investigators that “he was the gunman who entered the school campus armed with an AR-15 and began shooting students that he saw in the hallways and on the school grounds,” the report said.

The police would find him an hour later in the nearby city of Coral Springs. In the report, Mr. Cruz said he had slipped away from the campus by ditching the gun and the extra magazines he brought along, joining the crowd of worried students fleeing the school.

Unarmed and anonymous, Mr. Cruz, finally, had blended in among them.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 03:24:29 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2018, 03:14:36 PM »

http://kellybroganmd.com/mass-shootings-the-new-manifestation-of-an-ancient-phenomenon-and-their-link-to-psychiatric-drugs/
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DougMacG
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2018, 04:11:16 PM »

Leftists are saying Trump blamed this on mental illness and maybe that is right. 
https://theslot.jezebel.com/trump-blames-school-shooting-on-mental-illness-while-pr-1823076101

I have a close relative with schizophrenia who wouldn't hurt anyone but perhaps shouldn't own guns and a close friend dealing with horrible bouts of panic and anxiety attacks apparently caused by prescriptions with lousy followup from psych-medical industry.  What to do with his guns, I don't know.  He would not harm others, but others who are going through mental disturbance might.  I wonder what we really have learned about the people who commit these crimes.  In addition to the obvious need to track radical Islamic terrorists better, maybe we need to put some kind of attention on people who have destructive urges for other reasons. 

Shooter of current news reportedly had psych prescriptions 12 months ago without medical followup.  I don't want to follow the ever-changing details of these events, but the larger principles are important.  Can we restrict rights without a conviction?  Without due process?  Can we give people of known risk due process and make reasonable restrictions?

Innocent until proven guilty - after the crime is completed - is not the way to stop mass killings.  You don't get to threaten the President; we have special laws for that.  How about the safety of the rest of us?
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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2018, 04:18:12 PM »

YES.

Let's use this thread for discussion of these issues.
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G M
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2018, 04:24:17 PM »

Leftists are saying Trump blamed this on mental illness and maybe that is right. 
https://theslot.jezebel.com/trump-blames-school-shooting-on-mental-illness-while-pr-1823076101

I have a close relative with schizophrenia who wouldn't hurt anyone but perhaps shouldn't own guns and a close friend dealing with horrible bouts of panic and anxiety attacks apparently caused by prescriptions with lousy followup from psych-medical industry.  What to do with his guns, I don't know.  He would not harm others, but others who are going through mental disturbance might.  I wonder what we really have learned about the people who commit these crimes.  In addition to the obvious need to track radical Islamic terrorists better, maybe we need to put some kind of attention on people who have destructive urges for other reasons. 

Shooter of current news reportedly had psych prescriptions 12 months ago without medical followup.  I don't want to follow the ever-changing details of these events, but the larger principles are important.  Can we restrict rights without a conviction?  Without due process?  Can we give people of known risk due process and make reasonable restrictions?

Innocent until proven guilty - after the crime is completed - is not the way to stop mass killings.  You don't get to threaten the President; we have special laws for that.  How about the safety of the rest of us?

If someone is a danger to self or others, there is usually a legal process in every state allowing for involuntary commitment for a  short term psych eval.

If there is a legit basis for commitment beyond that point, after due process, any such person is restricted by federal law from firearm possession. 18 USC 922 (g)
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DougMacG
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2018, 05:33:54 PM »

"If someone is a danger to self or others, there is usually a legal process in every state allowing for involuntary commitment for a  short term psych eval.

If there is a legit basis for commitment beyond that point, after due process, any such person is restricted by federal law from firearm possession. 18 USC 922 (g)"
------------------------------

From my observation, the process or criteria needs to be tougher, much tougher.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 09:07:02 AM by DougMacG » Logged
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2018, 06:49:43 PM »

And it must be said and not without reason, that we also worry about empowering the nanny state to use this sort of stuff as part of their mission to disarm the American people.  Remember the campaign to draw equivalence in extremism between Islamo-fascism and the Tea Party?
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2018, 07:04:56 PM »

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2018, 07:05:32 PM »

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2018, 07:19:23 PM »

fifth post

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/1927-bombing-remains-americas-deadliest-school-massacre-180963355/
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G M
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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2018, 08:00:12 PM »

China has had mass shootings as well, despite being a police state. Although the biggest mass murders in history have been done by governments.
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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2018, 12:48:43 AM »

https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726
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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2018, 07:25:24 PM »

https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/
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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2018, 11:44:57 PM »

https://steemit.com/anarchy/@thepholosopher/3-common-gun-control-myths-debunked
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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2018, 08:04:31 AM »

https://www.mercatornet.com/features/view/is-father-loss-part-of-nikolas-cruzs-story?utm_source=MercatorNet&utm_campaign=60937b13a5-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_02_19&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e581d204e2-60937b13a5-124674163
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2018, 08:03:28 AM »

Excellent analysis from Anthony Sell in his comment previewing the Times article. Also check out the links in his original post:

"I think the saddest thing about recent events in Florida is how preventable this one was. It was not just the FBI who dropped the ball. There were no less than 5 different people in positions of authority who saw the signs, who were notified that this kid was a threat, and yet did nothing about it:

1. The Mother, who when alive, downplayed his behavior to keep him out of trouble, lying to investigators from the Department of Children and Families.

2. The Police who were called to the residence to respond to violent behavior no less than 39 times. If they felt that he was a threat they could at any time have filed a temporary restraining order on Cruz, removing all weapons from the residence, and taking him into custody if he refused to comply with that order. They also could have involuntarily committed him for a psychiatric evaluation.

3. The Investigator from the Department of Children and Families who were notified of his online posts and threats to commit violence. These investigators had under their authority the ability to commit him for several days to determine whether he was a threat to himself or others.

4. The school counselors and administrative staff who knew that he was a threat to students at the school, having already banned him from being in the school with a backpack, prior to his expulsion. These counselors expressed doubt at the finding of the Investigator from the Department of Children and Families, yet took no action to file for a restraining order.

5. The FBI, who were given a credible tip from a concerned citizen, yet failed to follow up and identify the individual who made the threat as being Cruz. Had they made the connection and seen the history of trouble, there would have been clear indication that any threats made by this individual were credible and imminent.

Now a lot has been said about the fact that there is sometimes no way to know if someone is mentally ill, if they have not already been hospitalized or diagnosed prior to their violent act, but unfortunately for the students and staff shot at the school, this was not one of those cases.

There is also a study circulating and often quoted in the media, that states statistics which claim that people with serious mental illness only account for 3% of violent crimes. The problem is that this report cherry picks which conditions "count" as "serious mental illness" by looking only at crimes attributable to offenders who were previously hospitalized and diagnosed with a "serious psychiatric illness" -- in Sweden. ...yes, Sweden....

The term "serious mental illness" won't include a host of psychological factors or social pressures that would easily identify anyone as being disturbed and not thinking clearly, and likely a threat. Factors and pressures which can alter a person's sense of right and wrong, their ability to have compassion for others, or even maintain a value of human life. These factors and pressures can lead to a tendency to dehumanize others and see them collectively as a source of persecution or a problem that has to be dealt with using extreme measures. Yet these same psychological factors and social pressures won't be considered a "serious mental illness" if they don't meet the standard for certain pathologies, or if there has been no diagnosis.

The problem I believe, is that within the mental healthcare system there is a movement to reduce the stigma associated with mental illness, and as such, they are very narrow in their definitions, and as such, conditions which can alter the behavior and thinking of otherwise healthy individuals are not being considered as a risk to the public. Further complicating matters is the difference between the legal definition of sanity and the medical definition. We are speaking at cross terms, and we need to get on the same page if this discussion is going to have any meaningful impact.

Further, the study mentioned above fails to take into consideration the relationship between many of these mass shooting events and the fact that many of the shooters were on prescribed antidepressants, which are known to have a high risk of both suicidal and violent behavior as a side effect. (See reference in the comments below).
 I believe we now live in a day and age where credible threats cannot be ignored. It is up to those who have witnessed threats or threatening behavior to step up and take action by calling the authorities and making them understand what you experienced, and it is up to authorities to work together to identify patterns of behavior sooner."



================
Also see:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html
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DougMacG
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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2018, 12:34:51 PM »

As much as I enjoyed being bullied politically by a few of the classmates of the shooter and be called a killer for supporting the constitution and an organization of law abiding citizens, NRA,  it turns out the shooter was bullied by his classmates.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200754714.html

Classmate:  ‘This kid gets bullied a lot, someone should do something,’

Someone should have done something.
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