Dog Brothers Public Forum
Return To Homepage
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 22, 2014, 08:49:57 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the Dog Brothers Public Forum.
81186 Posts in 2243 Topics by 1046 Members
Latest Member: MikeT
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  Dog Brothers Public Forum
|-+  DBMA Martial Arts Forum
| |-+  Martial Arts Topics
| | |-+  STICK FIGHTING FROM THE CANARY ISLANDS
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: STICK FIGHTING FROM THE CANARY ISLANDS  (Read 10120 times)
Anonymous
Guest
« on: April 16, 2004, 01:19:47 PM »

Contact. Alfonso Acosta JPC.Estilo.Acosta@ono.com

Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30569


« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2004, 02:46:18 PM »

Woof All:

The Canary Islands are in the Atlantic Ocean and are part of Spain.  My student Alfonso has been exploring them for some time now (as has DBMA Group Leader Jose Antonio of Tenerife, Canary Islands) and I have been an interested observer.  

What I have seen seems to me to have considerable merit.

Woof,
Crafty Dog

PD:  Alfonso-- posiblemente quisieras anadir donde y cuando sera' el seminario  wink
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30569


« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2004, 11:07:43 AM »

This passage suggests that Palo Canario has roots in the FMA:

=======
 http://www.cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html

 The year 1635 had witnessed the arrival in Manila of a very efficient
Governor-General and a perfect soldier. The coming of Don Sebastian
Hurtado de Corcuera marked a period of success for the Spanish arms which was not to be equaled again until the mighty soldier Juan Arolas arrived 250 years later.

 Whatever Corcuera's emotions as he gazed down the valley to the horde of brown kris men waiting to resist him, there can be no question as to his
valor. At a flourish of a mailed fist, the Spanish plumes disappeared into
the wave of Moros.

We are indebted to Father Crevas for an account of this campaign. From him we learn that Corcuera, with a squadron of small vessels and a dozen flat boats, entered the river, defying Correlat. "The forces which he had were five companies; his own of 150 men, those of Captain Nicholas Gonzalez and Lorenzo Orella de Ugalde of 100 men each; another company of sailors; another of Pampangos; all the rest were rabble and pioneers. The same day he reached the river, he entered, with seventy men, the court of Correlat, defended by more than two thousand armed Moros."

 As we consider the caliber of the men who opposed Corcuera that day, we wonder how he kept his small company from being overwhelmed. The Spaniards had arquebuses, but they were slow and laborious to reload. A great deal of the combat must have been hand-to-hand. Pitched to religious fervor, a Moro was the equal to any Spaniard in hand-to-hand battle, and yet Corcuera survived to win a brilliant victory.

 de Corcuera remains as one of the conspicuous figures of the Spanish
conquest of Mindanao. He was a perfect soldier. His reward for
distinguished service in the field against the Moros was paralleled by the treatment Cortez and Balboa received at the hands of the Spanish crown. During his term of office as Governor-General of the Philippines (1635-1644), he incurred the displeasure of the Friars, and upon being succeeded by Diego Fa jardo, he was haled into court, fined 25,000 and thrown into prison for five years. He was finally released by a Royal Order and given the tardy award of Governor of the Canary Islands.

 Ned Nepangue in a previous article wrote of the stick fighting arts of
Canary Islands and Venezuela that is closely similar in technical form to
Eskrima / Arnis. Who could have introduced stick fighting in the Canary
Islands? From the historical facts above we can surmise that De Corcuera, during his administration of the Canary Islands could have brought along with him trusted alalays (cronies) that probably cross trained with native Filipinos during his Mindanao campaign.
Logged
v. escondido
Newbie
*
Posts: 2


« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2004, 03:49:57 PM »

Cheesy I am privy to the research done by the author, he suggested that de Corcuera had a pivotal role in the development of the FMA.  consider these facts:
1.)  The recruiment of a thousands Cebuanos, Pampangos, Ilonggos in de Corcuera's pacification campaign of Mindanao.  The earlier assumption made by bogus FMA historians that the warrior arts of the Phillippines was banned is pure fabrication and has no historical basis in fact.
2.)  Jesuit priest actively engaged in teaching combat arts to the indios blending an embryonic form of stick fighting and Renaissance rapier fencing.  The practice of orascion came frm these priests.
3.)   FMA techniques are mostly Spanish terms i.e. - boca y lobo, fraille(priest), crossada (cross), pluma, planchada, etc.  Adrew Abrian's Moro-moro Orabes Heneral and Ilustrisimo's combate heneral could be a reference to the Governor General.
4.)  most mind boggling of all as intimated to me by Mr. Macachor -
is Don Sebastian's ethnic origin- he came from the Basque region of Northern Spain where they practice a shepherd stick fighting called MAKILA.  His enmity with the Spanish Friars must have something to do with ethnic envy.  Furthermore, and the Spanish authorities probably were not comfortable with his patronage of the Filipino warrior class during his administration.  Thus his subsequent 5 year imprisonment and later posting in the Canary Islands.

I don't think the kali story can muster the same direct evidence as the ones gathered by these CEbuano writers- Mr. Macachor and Dr. Nepangue.  Like me these guys are Cebuanos, and how I wish the kali story is true.   But historical accuracy is also important to us Cebuanos.  This is our cultural legacy.  I hope you guys will understand.
Logged
Alfonso Acosta
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2004, 03:01:07 AM »

Sorry, I do not speak English. this is a translation by my computer.

The author of this I articulate forgets that the Canary Islands many centuries before being conquered by the Spaniards, they were visited by Romans, Greek and Phoenician and either in those years, long before the discovery of Americas or habian cronicas written that testified that aborigenes of these Islands used woods as defense in their battles. The Canary Islands are closely together in the western part but of Africa of the coasts of Morocco. One knows that many towns of this zone of Africa also use Woods as it fights. Asi that teoria but approximated is that this fight comes from ahi. But what if we know for sure, he is that the Spaniards when we went to conquer these islands long before the discovery of america and the PHILIPPINES, the troops found resistance against these indigenas that used woods with much ability. And of that if there is written certainty. In the Canary Islands also the Camel like animal predominates that is used for the tasks of the field. The Cameleers, are the men who direct to these animals always take a wood in the hands. These animals very badly must carcater and are very wild. In many occasions they attack his master with great mordicos. These men defend themselves of the attacks of the camel with their wood and giving a blow them in a bone that teiene detras of the head. Of this form they make fall to the camel to the ground as if outside desmallo. The camel coje fear and obeys to its master. The long delays of these man in the field with its woods, propicion crecaion of these fights that hacian like defense, simultaneously that like Fun.

For us it is a surprise, that now to afir itself to me that the Wood Of the Canary Islands comes from the Philippines  shocked
Logged

Alfonso Acosta
www.palocanario.com
Sicilian
Newbie
*
Posts: 9


« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2004, 07:26:48 PM »

Alfonso,

Como esta? Que tal mi amigo? Feliz Navidad!

I've stayed in Spain for half-a year back in 2003 to help out in my cousin's restaurant. i stayed at Roses, Costa Brava. Other places I've been to: Cadaques, figueres, Barcelona, Madrid, Valencia and Toledo. I plan to go back and stay in Malaga or somewhere South.

Pls give me a call or e-mail me at tobyreyes@hotmail.com

Hasta luego!

TOBY
Logged
Alfonso Acosta
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2005, 04:47:54 AM »

Toby I wish the best thing you for this new year. I do not speak ingles and is my computer that translates. Saludarte is a pleasure I put a connection to you towards a one of my videos. I hope that you like.

http://es.msnusers.com/ESKRIMAENLINEA/Documentos/VIDEOS/Palo%20Canario2/Tomas%20Deniz.wmv
Logged

Alfonso Acosta
www.palocanario.com
jugador
Newbie
*
Posts: 10


« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2005, 07:18:43 AM »

Hi! I?m a student of PALO CANARIO (D?niz Style) since eight years ago.   Also my family has a strong relation with this tradition and my grandfather was a teacher in the island of Tenerife. First of all I have to apologize,  I hope you will forgive me because my English is not so good as I would desire (there is a lot of years since the last time I wrote something in English).

For me this is not a surprise to watch that some people say that the origin of de Juego del Palo of de Canary Island is the eskrima, or Kali, or Arnis, from de Philippine Islands, I did read this article some months ago and I found very interesting its conclusions. About the origin of juego del palo, however, the autor only express a theory, he offer some data but he don?t know the reality of juego del palo, only say that, assuming that the FMA was led  to the Canary Islands the only person ho could do it was de Governor ?de Corcuera?. This is a logic conclusion if  we see the two systems, because are very similar. However this conclusion is not correct if we make a deeper analysis, based in the following facts:

1.- We have to count with the fact that all the systems of stick fights of the world supose the handling of a tool. Every agression is a problem that we have to solve using a tool that, in this case, is the stick. So the solutions of this problem will necessarily be not infinite. There?s movements that an experimented fighter never would use (for example it?s stupid to defend your legs when they are attacking your head). So, with the process of evolution there is another process of erosion when we let of using some movements that aren?t practical. If you agree with me you will come to the conclusion that is not estrange that the solutions of  the Kali are almost the same to the palo canario?s solutions.

We have to see that, when the system is based in some beginnings all the develop of the system will be affected for that beginnings and in the juego del palo and the kali the beginning is hitting with the stick, we have not based our systems in the ?estocada? as did all the European systems after the XVI century. Then our solutions will be very similar.

There?s another fact in this sense. There?re more systems of stick fight in the world that are very similar to the juego del palo canario. I?m talking about almost all the african sticks, the mahori stick fighting, the aikido system of stick fighting. About the systems from Africa they are very similar to the PALO CANARIO, and there never was the governor de Corcuera. I don?t think that is logical that they didn?t affect to the juego del palo (for example the sticks from Morocco, that is to no more than 200 km from Canary Islands) but it was the sticks from Philippines, that is to more than 2000 km from de Canary Islands, for example.

2.- The people of the canary islands suffered the same process of conquer than the people of the Philippine Islands and the guanches did get, in that process, great victories over the Spanish armies using only the stones and de sticks (even one of the great defeats of a Spanish army it happened in the island of Tenerife, in a town than, since then, has de name of LA MATANZA). As it happened in other parts of the Spanish empire we suffered the visit of pirates for centuries, and to fight them the persons who lived in this islands had, only, their sticks. That?s not all, during the XVIII century Spain made the war against England and, again, the Canary Islands had to suffer too much attacks of the English army (we don?t have to forget that Horatio Nelson lost his arm in Tenerife and that the English troops suffered a defeat in the island of Fuerteventura). It was too expensive to have an army armed with modern fire weapons, this was the reason why in the Spanish territories was used the militia, not professional army.

The militia of Canary Islands got a great fame in the times of empire and they was sent to all the territories of the empire (for example the ?isle?a? militia was very used in America, for example, in Louisiana or Texas (St. Bernard, for example was a town founded by the militia of Canary Islands in order to defend the city of New Orleans, and there?re a lot of examples like this one). An important data is that the weapon of this militia was some modalities of stick.
 
Then, in this side of the world we have a people with demonstrated a great use of the sticks and had an evolutioned system of defense based in that use.

3.- We have news about the way of use of the sticks in the moment when the Spanish armies arrived to the Canary Islands (there?s pictures of the XVI century) and we have found people and references that demonstrated that the modern people of the canary islands practised the juego del palo in a similar way since not too much time ago. It?s more logical thinking that there is the same line of evolution in the same geographic space than that there are two lines of evolution, one of them came from de another side of the world.

4.- As happened with kali, in the juego del palo there?s some influence from the Spanish Sword (we still are Spanish people, as was the Philippines in the XIX Century). There?s influences from de English Stick and from de Jogo do pau, from Portugal too. However there is not any reference about any stick player from Philippines, or Japan, or China.

5.- About the governor de Corcuera we have to take it carefully. He was a person of de hight society here. In the years when he was in the Canary Islands was very estrange de contact of that persons with the ?low people?. It would be an exceptional fact that a Governor teach to the people from field how to use a stick. If it was so there would have to be news about it and there?s not anything, and the people that live in the field in the Canary Islands doesn?t trust the people that come from other places of world (even from Spain) when we are talking about our customs or our defense. Even more, the juego del palo has always practised for de lower classes of society from canary islands, the people from de higher classes did use other weapons (swords, sables,?).

6.- There is other forms of self defense, that come from de times of the guanches, than are practised today, as is de Lucha Canaria. In this case we have the same times of silence (the XVI, XVII, XVIII centuries) but there is not any doubt that it come from the times of de Conquer of Canary Islands. Of course it could happen that, in the years when there?s nothing written about this themes, the original practice disappeared and it was changed for another one that was the same but this is not a logical explanation, it would be very, very estrange. So it?s easier to assume that the same system survived in this islands than think that it was replaced for another one that, curiously was affected for the same influences than the juego del palo.

To conclude I have to say that is not probable that the origin of juego del palo is in the Kali Filipino.

Sorry for the extension and, if you have any question about this theme I will try to solve it if you want. it. Thanks
Logged
bart
Newbie
*
Posts: 20


« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2005, 01:47:23 AM »

Hey There,

I think that Jugador made some good points.

I too think that it would be odd that de Corcuera would teach people. I interpreted the theory to say that he would have brought his bodyguards and strongmen with him and it would have been they that passed anything on. Those people would have been unnamed to history but could have been from anywhere including Cebu, Venezuela, and the Basque region among others.

I also see the idea of concurrent development as really feasible. The bottom line to me is that I don't think that the FMA as we know them today are without influence from the West. It's pretty often that you see styles that claim to be pre-hispanic and to me that's just not realistic. Whenever you fight other people and live, you learn something and those fights influence you.
Logged

Be Cool

------------------
Capital Doce Pares
www.capitaldocepares.com
the spaniard
Newbie
*
Posts: 8


« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2005, 07:55:05 AM »

Hola que tal,soy de Sevilla!
Thar article is like saying that the chinese stick fighting comes from Venice(gondolieri) and was shown to them by Marco Polo... rolleyes
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30569


« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2005, 08:36:57 AM »

I could have sworn that we have a thread somewhere in the back pages on Palo Canario and if it is in the first 10 pages, well, I missed it-- but I did find these which may be of interest:

http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=646

http://www.dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=384&start=0

http://www.dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=412
Logged
Alfonso Acosta
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2005, 05:52:59 AM »

NEW VIDEO CLIP

http://www.gestimeg.onored.com/seminario.wmv
Logged

Alfonso Acosta
www.palocanario.com
jugador
Newbie
*
Posts: 10


« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2005, 06:58:42 AM »

Hi!

I?m surprised because the interest of the juego del palo.

About the Bart?s commentary I have to say that it?s unprobable that the Corcuera?s strongmen in Philipines came in Canary Islands and there?s no news about this. We also have to count with datum that the travel from Philippines to Canary Islands was too expensive and the Kings of Spain Would not have spend so much money in it. However it?s could be a new line of investigation. However here we have pictures and cronicles about the games with sticks before the conquest and there are some weapons from that age conservated in the museums and they are not too much different from the stick today.

About the video sent by Alfonso Acosta: It?s very interesting the effort that is doing Alfonso. However my advice is that you have to travel to Canary Islands and see ?in situ? what is happening here. Here?re a lot of  schools and styles and a lot of data to discover.

Thank to all!
Logged
jugador
Newbie
*
Posts: 10


« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2005, 06:59:18 AM »

Hi!

I?m surprised because the interest of the juego del palo.

About the Bart?s commentary I have to say that it?s unprobable that the Corcuera?s strongmen in Philipines came in Canary Islands and there?s no news about this. We also have to count with datum that the travel from Philippines to Canary Islands was too expensive and the Kings of Spain Would not have spend so much money in it. However it?s could be a new line of investigation. However here we have pictures and cronicles about the games with sticks before the conquest and there are some weapons from that age conservated in the museums and they are not too much different from the stick today.

About the video sent by Alfonso Acosta: It?s very interesting the effort that is doing Alfonso. However my advice is that you have to travel to Canary Islands and see ?in situ? what is happening here. Here?re a lot of  schools and styles and a lot of data to discover.

Thank to all!
Logged
Alfonso Acosta
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2005, 08:15:15 AM »

Hola Jugador
No he participado en los debates que has iniciado porque no hablo Ingles. Intento traducir algo de lo que has puesto con mi computador pero la traduccion es pesima y seguro que me pierdo muchas cosas. Me parecen interesantes algunos de los analisis que haces sobre  Corcuera y me gustaria entrar en el debate. Si no te importa, es posible que puedas poner tus post tambien en Castellano.
Un saludo
Logged

Alfonso Acosta
www.palocanario.com
jugador
Newbie
*
Posts: 10


« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2005, 05:51:46 AM »

Hola Alfoso!

Por supuesto que intentar? mandar una traducci?n al castellano de mis intervenciones pero, ten en cuenta, que la mayor parte de las veces me conecto muy apurado (desde el trabajo, pero no digas nada), y no s? si tendr? tiempo. De todas formas te mando mi email, por si quieres ponerte en contacto conmigo.


my e mail: edjhernandez@yahoo.es
Logged
Alfonso Acosta
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2005, 07:46:18 AM »

Me parece muy buena idea. Voy a meter tu correo en mi programa Yahoo haber si cotactamos algun dia. Te enviare mi correo de hotmail por si quieres a?adirme a tus contactos, asi podremos conocernos mejor.
En el foro de espa?ol he puesto un ultimo mensaje relacionado con el Palo Canrio. ?Si te parece!, podemos continuar el hilo de la conversacion alli y dejamos aqui a los Ingleses que se aclaren ellos  solitos.  Cheesy  Cheesy
Un saludo.
Logged

Alfonso Acosta
www.palocanario.com
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 30569


« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2013, 07:26:58 AM »

The following video is a documental about the II International Meeting of Juego del Palo, celebrated in 1998, I hope you'll enjoy it.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enSOJwTIDio
 
Greetings from Tenerife.
 
Edwin J. Hernández.
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!