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Author Topic: Has anyone ever seen a real Kali fight?  (Read 36088 times)
Rodger
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« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2004, 06:41:32 PM »

In addition to the 'ukali' finds, you might find the article below interesting:

http://www.silvertorch.com/its%20a%20fact/various-2.htm
TRINIDAD?S KALINDA STICKFIGHTS

The Trinidad stick fight called kalinda (or kalenda) survives mainly as a dance form ? an artistic representation of the real thing. The real thing of the nineteenth century was a fearsome activity that should forever remain in the past.  

It is believed that kalinda began around 1860 when the freed slaves organized themselves into competing bands and held performances. Men, women and children gathered to sing, dance and be entertained by stick fights.  

The aim of each stick fighter was to deliver a blow that would hit the opponent on the body - any part above the waist - hard enough to fell him to the ground. Blows were usually aimed at the head and damage to the skull was a very common occurrence in stick fighting.  

The rules of the game were few. Hitting ?under the belt? or striking a player when he fell or was forced to kneel was an infringement. Again, as long as a player's skull was cut he had to retire and drain the blood into the "blood hole", a hollow made for this purpose in the ground in the center of the fighting ring.  

The stick used was between three and four feet long and was about seven-eighths of an inch in diameter. It was made of cog-wood, the wood of the yellow poui tree or even the sour guava.  

There were secret formulas for cutting the wood and preparing a stick. One method was to cut a stick when ?the moon was weak" and the night was dark. The bark was then peeled off and the stick was pushed into the heart of a rotting banana tree trunk and left there for seven days and seven nights. It was then taken out, covered with tallow, and buried in a manure heap where it "cured" for fourteen days. After this, the stick was removed and was bent and rolled. It was then concealed in a dark place for seven more days before it was considered ready for use.  

The stick men gave their weapons frightful names like "Tamer", and "Groaning".  

Fighters were colorfully dressed. Some shaved their heads clean and covered them with small iron pots over which head cloths were tied, and crowns fitted. A long-sleeved shirt of silk carried a breastplate of metal or of embossed leather, decorated with gilded buttons. Around the waist some fighters tied a ribbon or wide sash, usually red in color. The long trousers were decorated with rows of colored buttons. Alpargatas or flat shoes completed the outfit. The fighters tied red handkerchiefs around the wrists, and often a long ribbon corresponding to the band's colors was tied across the shoulders and allowed to hang down in a long tassel.  

Every band had a chantwell (or shantwell). He was a singer who praised and encouraged his own band and ridiculed the stick fighters of the competing band.  

Over time, stick-fighting tournaments became features of the major holidays, chiefly Easter Monday, August First and Christmas Day. Each village had its square where visiting challengers clashed with local kings.  

Shades of kalinda continue into contemporary Trinidad. Before Carnival each year, when the shantwells rehearsed, tenement dwellers joined in the Kalinda songs. In these backyards with fantastic names like "Hell Yard", "Toll Gate", "Behind the Bridge", "Concrete Yard", "Mafoombo Yard", the earliest carisoes (later, calypsos) were sung.  

The matadors, bad-johns, stickmen, prostitutes, drummers and the singers and the dancers performed at these gatherings. Each yard had its "Kalinda King" who led his band. Each yard developed its own warriors, champions and experts.  

It was from this highly organized folk institution that the calypso emerged, and today this is kalinda's chief claim to fame. The bloody stick fights have gone ? gone the way of the equally violent (perhaps more violent) duel in Europe and America.  

Today kalinda may be seen as choreographed performances on- or off-stage, in which teams of fighters compete against each other. Such performances often include much singing and dancing. They still contain elements of the original, however, and stick-wielding performers must remain extremely careful, lest they injure one another.  


And here's another one.  It's categorized as 'stick-fighting' without mention of blades.

http://guazabara.com/african.htm
The introduction of the African slaves into the islands resulted in some distinct changes in the Taino fighting system. The first was that many of the Spanish soldiers would not involve themselves in direct conflicts with the Taino. They instead preferred to have their African slaves or Native "Mansos" (tame Indian's or Indian's who fought on the side of the Spanish) do the fighting for them. The slaves were not equipped with swords and frequently fought with weapons that were as crude as those employed by the Taino. This resulted in direct combat, and the Taino could move in on the slave aggressors without worrying about avoiding a blade.

Many of the Spanish who inhabited the coastal regions of Puerto Rico avoided the inner part of the island due to the concentration of free hostile Taino that inhabited the jungle-dense mountains. African slaves would flee into this area preferring death in an unknown land to bondage. This was the second influence in early Guazabara history. Some of the slaves who escaped and  avoided capture found their way to the hidden Taino encampments and were immediately accepted into the tribes. The Taino believed that aiding the escapees would add to their own population and reduce the amount of slaves that were willing to fight for the Spanish. The Taino referred to these men and women as Cimmaron. These warriors would be referred to by the Spanish as Black Taino's. The Cimmaron may have directly contributed to bringing Kalenda stick fighting from Africa to the Caribbean, this type of fighting spread to the lower Antilles and later to the mainland.

It is unknown what African tribe contributed the most to Guazabara, but it may have been those from the Congo region such as the Mandinga, Mende, Dohomey or Yoruba as their food, language and religion (Santeria) had the strongest influence over the Caribbean Islands and its people.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2004, 08:19:02 PM »

Some interesting posts here and I will stand aside while the historians do their thing.  I would however like to address this point:

BEGIN

I'll leave it to Tuhon Raf's capable hands to speak for Sayoc, but concerning us this statement is not correct. We have NEVER used the NAME Kali in connection with assertions of "mother art".

Sorry, about that Guro Crafty... What I meant was that Dog Brothers got the term from two individuals, namely Dan Inosanto, who got it from Largusa and Villabrille, and also, GT Leo Gaje. And they're the ones who assert the 'mother art' rhetoric.

END

Guro Inosanto also received the term from Manong Juan LaCoste.  JLC was murdered in 1973 IIRC at the age of 89, which would mean he was born around 1884.  The story of his travels in the Philippines is fairly well known, and for him the term Kali was quite valid.  In that he was Guro Inosanto's principal FMA teacher, I would give him principal credit for Guro I's use of the term Kali.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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RobinGUD
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« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2004, 10:15:54 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Some interesting posts here and I will stand aside while the historians do their thing.  I would however like to address this point:

BEGIN

I'll leave it to Tuhon Raf's capable hands to speak for Sayoc, but concerning us this statement is not correct. We have NEVER used the NAME Kali in connection with assertions of "mother art".

Sorry, about that Guro Crafty... What I meant was that Dog Brothers got the term from two individuals, namely Dan Inosanto, who got it from Largusa and Villabrille, and also, GT Leo Gaje. And they're the ones who assert the 'mother art' rhetoric.

END

Guro Inosanto also received the term from Manong Juan LaCoste.  JLC was murdered in 1973 IIRC at the age of 89, which would mean he was born around 1884.  The story of his travels in the Philippines is fairly well known, and for him the term Kali was quite valid.  In that he was Guro Inosanto's principal FMA teacher, I would give him principal credit for Guro I's use of the term Kali.

Woof,
Crafty Dog


To show a counter point here's a post in another forum

Lacoste Inosanto connection
From: Doug
Remote Name: 80.41.222.247


Comments
Hi,

Please excuse me if this question falls outside the boudaries of this forum.

Although I don't train in JKD now, there was a time when I did - from '88 until '94. Since then I have concerntrated primarily on the FMA. I was at a seminar a few years ago conducted by a well respected practitioner and researcher in the FMA. We got talking about all the misconceptions surrounding the term "Kali" etc and he mentioned that he was told by another well known face in the art who was also close to John Lacoste and Dan Inosanto, that although they may have known each other for so many years, the time Inosanto spent under his tuition was minimal. I found this strange because Inosanto has always cited him as one of the biggest influences on his FMA, to such an extent that he named his system after him.

This is a question I've posted on another forum but without much response. Can anyone here shed some light on this contradiction?

Thanks in advance

Doug



Last changed: June 18, 2004
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2004, 01:06:34 AM »

BEGIN

I was at a seminar a few years ago conducted by a well respected practitioner and researcher in the FMA. We got talking about all the misconceptions surrounding the term "Kali" etc and he mentioned that he was told by another well known face in the art who was also close to John Lacoste and Dan Inosanto, that although they may have known each other for so many years, the time Inosanto spent under his tuition (sic) was minimal. I found this strange because Inosanto has always cited him as one of the biggest influences on his FMA, to such an extent that he named his system after him.

This is a question I've posted on another forum but without much response. Can anyone here shed some light on this contradiction?

END

Let's see: We have "Doug" (no last name) relaying hearsay from "a well respected practitioner and researcher in the FMA" who was relaying hearsay from "a well known face in the art".  huh  This sounds more like a children's game of "telephone" and  I confess that it eludes me why it should be taken seriously.  Tongue  If someone has something to say, he should be man enough to put his name to it.  

Crafty Dog
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Robin Padilla
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« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2004, 05:15:06 AM »

Rodger,

BEGIN
"and here's a little piece of trivia about Mr. Sulite's old work: Edgar Sulite is from Leyte, he is Bisaya. The two teachers he credits for his art (LAMECO) are Caballero of Eskrima de Campo and Antonio Ilustrisimo. Both are from Cebu, both are Bisaya, both used Eskrima. Of the 40 (it's been awhile since I read the book) or so Masters featured in the book, guess how many are Bisaya and how many use Eskrima?"
END

Yes. Both Caballero and Ilustrisimo called their art Eskrima. However, Ilustrisimo's section in the "Masters of Arnis Kali and Eskrima" is the only one called Kali, the mother of Arnis and Eskrima.

BEGIN:
"Makes one wonder where Mr. Edgar Sulite got wind of the whole 'Kali' usage and why he switch to this? "
END


From my readings I would say Punong Guro Edgar probably learned of Kali, the mother art from Antonio Ilustrisimo.


BEGIN:
"1. What region in the Philippines is Kali used and practiced?

2. Which tribe, or language group practices Kali?

3. If you can answer 1 and 2, does this group or groups use the title Kali to mean the original art?

4. What is a the practioner of Kali called? "
END


1. Kali, the mother art is used and practice throughout all of the Philippines.

2. Everyone who picks up a stick in the name of Arnis or Eskrima is essentially practicing Kali, the mother art even if they don't know, deny or refuse to acknowledge it.

3. Some people have acceptd Kali as the name of the Mother art while some still call it Arnis or Eskrima.

4. A practicioner of Kali is called a Mandirigma, Arnistador, Eskrimador, Kalista, Dogbrother, FMA'er, Martial Artist etc.

BEGIN:
"A most reasonable stance. If you think about it, Filipinos are pretty open to new terms, and made up terms."
END

If you think about it, this is probably how Arnis ended up replacing Kali. But let us be thankful for men like Floro Villabrille, Antonio Ilustrisimo, Edgar Sulite and Dan Inosanto for their efforts in preserving Kali and teaching us  that this is the mother art with roots in pre Hispanic times.
Had it not been for their efforts Kali may very well have been rendered extinct.

BEGIN:
"Let's see: We have "Doug" (no last name) relaying hearsay from "a well respected practitioner and researcher in the FMA" who was relaying hearsay from "a well known face in the art".
END

I don't know too much about Guro Dan's relationship with Manong Juan Lacoste. If anybody here would know it would be Guro Crafty.  But even if Guro Dan studied Lacoste Kali for a minimal amount of time which is doubtful, you can learn from your teacher that Kali is the mother art in as much time as it takes to say it.

But it sounds like Doug is one of those crazy Jeet Kune Do guys who like to player hate on Guro Dan.

[/quote]
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I am the world's sexiest Eskrimador.
Rodger
Guest
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2004, 01:34:24 PM »

http://www.realfighting.com/issue7/romyframe.html

"Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years. Tony Diego (the present head of the Ilustrisimo system) and I, after the research mentioned, decided that "Kalis" is the more appropriate word because it means "sword" and would then mean the "Sword of Ilustrisimo." The name has not been formally registered except on a website but we had decided on this even when Tatang was still active and alive."

Mr. Romy Macapagal is one of the FMA community's most qualified historian/practitioner.  He is one of the seniors of Kalis Ilustrisimo.  If you remember Antonio Ilustrisimo's first students were Tony Diego and Yuli Romo, both of whom are also from Cebu.

In the book "Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo", the relationship between Antonio Ilustrisimo and Floro Villabrille (also from Cebu) is made clear.  Floro Villabrille was a student under Ilustrisimo.  It's funny how the Villabrille clan overlooked this fact, choosing instead the more dramatic story of the Blind Princess.

This connection is important because if you really look back there are only 4 individuals that promoted Kali as "the Mother art" in the US.

1. Floro Villabrille (from Cebu)
2. Ben Largusa     (from Hawaii)
3. Dan Inosanto    (from Stockton)
4. Leo Gaje          (from Negros)

As far as 'Kali' in the U.S. is concerned, you can pretty much draw a connecting line from the first guy to the last.  Everyone else who uses 'Kali' in the US, can draw a line to atleast one of the above names.

So, if the first guy on the list, has a rather shady story about how he came to use 'Kali', as per the findings in "the Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo", then it makes the whole propaganda suspect automatically.

Quote from: Robin Padilla
Ilustrisimo's section in the "Masters of Arnis Kali and Eskrima" is the only one called Kali, the mother of Arnis and Eskrima. From my readings I would say Punong Guro Edgar probably learned of Kali, the mother art from Antonio Ilustrisimo.


That's because when Mr. Sulite's book was published, Antonio Ilustrisimo's group was using 'Kali'.  They were using Kali at the insistence of GT Leo Gaje, again I refer you to the list of 4 names above.  Does this help you connect everything?
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Rodger
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« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2004, 01:44:36 PM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla

1. Kali, the mother art is used and practice throughout all of the Philippines.


Where exactly? Can you give us specific regions?

Quote
2. Everyone who picks up a stick in the name of Arnis or Eskrima is essentially practicing Kali, the mother art even if they don't know, deny or refuse to acknowledge it.


Arnisadors and Eskrimadors disagree.

Quote
3. Some people have acceptd Kali as the name of the Mother art while some still call it Arnis or Eskrima.


Filipinos who have never left the Philippines? and who have never trained with anyone of the 4 names above?

Quote
4. A practicioner of Kali is called a Mandirigma, Arnistador, Eskrimador, Kalista, Dogbrother, FMA'er, Martial Artist etc.


Wrong again, you're essentializing.  Kalista? lol... If the purpose of using Kali is to rid yourself of 'Spanish colonial mentality' and because 'Kali is pre-Spanish', then why conjugate Kali as if it was a Spanish/European word?

Still nothing...
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2004, 01:46:10 PM »

<<This connection is important because if you really look back there are only 4 individuals that promoted Kali as "the Mother art" in the US.

1. Floro Villabrille (from Cebu)
2. Ben Largusa (from Hawaii)
3. Dan Inosanto (from Stockton)
4. Leo Gaje (from Negros)

As far as 'Kali' in the U.S. is concerned, you can pretty much draw a connecting line from the first guy to the last. Everyone else who uses 'Kali' in the US, can draw a line to atleast one of the above names. >>

Rodger,

As I stated above Tuhon Sayoc also heard it from a couple of Arnis/Eskrima instructors in the 70's. Both from VERY well known systems.

They may have heard it from one of the four above but there was no open indication of that. So it could still possibly lead credence to your perspective.

Since this leads to more heresay, I'd rather keep their names under wraps until someone from their camp speaks up for them.

--Rafael--
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Rodger
Guest
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2004, 01:51:14 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Some interesting posts here and I will stand aside while the historians do their thing.  I would however like to address this point:

Guro Inosanto also received the term from Manong Juan LaCoste.  JLC was murdered in 1973 IIRC at the age of 89, which would mean he was born around 1884.  The story of his travels in the Philippines is fairly well known, and for him the term Kali was quite valid.  In that he was Guro Inosanto's principal FMA teacher, I would give him principal credit for Guro I's use of the term Kali.

Woof,
Crafty Dog


Guru Crafty,

Do the best of your knowledge, did manong Juan LaCoste use 'Kali' for the art he practiced? or Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned? manong Juan LaCoste was Bisaya, they say he was from Cebu, so the fact that he used 'Kali' for his art is very interesting.

In addition to the big 4 names above, Mr. Mirafuerte of the 1957 book and Mr. LaCoste, are two individuals that need to be looked into further.
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Rodger
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« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2004, 02:21:52 PM »

Quote from: SUNHELMET
As I stated above Tuhon Sayoc also heard it from a couple of Arnis/Eskrima instructors in the 70's. Both from VERY well known systems.

They may have heard it from one of the four above but there was no open indication of that. So it could still possibly lead credence to your perspective.

Since this leads to more heresay, I'd rather keep their names under wraps until someone from their camp speaks up for them.

--Rafael--


Tuhon Rafael,

I absolutely respect your decision, but can you say if these Arnis/Eskrima instructors from the 70s are from the Philippines, or based in the Philippines?
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SUNHELMET
Guest
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2004, 12:27:27 AM »

<<can you say if these Arnis/Eskrima instructors from the 70s are from the Philippines, or based in the Philippines?>>

Well known Filipinos who at the time they met the Sayocs were living in the Philippines and were visiting the states. Different systems but known for calling their arts, Arnis and/or Eskrima. One of them is still living in the Philippines and I believe never lived in the states. Again they may have heard the phrase from the four listed above but I don't have enough info to make that call.

--Rafael--
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Rodger
Guest
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2004, 01:05:37 AM »

Quote from: SUNHELMET
One of them is still living in the Philippines and I believe never lived in the states. Again they may have heard the phrase from the four listed above but I don't have enough info to make that call.


I've met quite a few Filipinos who use "Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali", as a 'catch all' phrase for their school.  Atty. Dionisio Canete has been known to use the phrase.  But, ask him about 'Kali' in Bisaya, and he'll just chuckle and say something like 'if that's what they use outside, won't hurt us to use it to'.

This attitude and the whole 'arbitrary-ness' of these titles is important to consider how people in the Philippines start using 'Kali' (w/ the aforementioned propanda).  It was under the same attitude that Antonio Ilustrisimo and his group also began to use 'Kali'.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2004, 01:18:03 AM »

Woof All:



BEGIN

Guru Crafty,

To the best of your knowledge, did manong Juan LaCoste use 'Kali' for the art he practiced? or Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned? manong Juan LaCoste was Bisaya, they say he was from Cebu, so the fact that he used 'Kali' for his art is very interesting.

In addition to the big 4 names above, Mr. Mirafuerte of the 1957 book and Mr. LaCoste, are two individuals that need to be looked into further.

END

You are right to use the phrase "To the best of your knowledge" when dealing with me.  I am a highly unreliable conduit of knowledge in these matters.  As I have related previously elsewhere, during one of the periodic outbreaks of the JKD wars back in the 1980s in a guest column to Inside Kung Fu, I got something wrong that led to a lot of heat on Guro I.  It was not until 3 or 4 years later that he gently said something in passing (said so gently I almost missed it) that led me to ask him a question that allowed him to set me straight.

You are also right to ask "Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned?"   As a typical clueless American it has taken many years for me to begin to appreciate that there seems to be a cultural difference in Filipino and American culture when it comes to handling differences.  Often, the Filipino will 'agree' so as to be 'polite' and the American will openly state his difference.  Obviously, Filipinos will often disagree quite vigorously too and I readily admit to not having figured out criteria to predict whether the response will be polite pretense of agreement or passionate ire huh  

IIRC the order of Guro Inonsanto's studies, his studies with Manong LaCoste well preceded his training with Largusa and Villabrille.

IIRC Manong LaCoste, as I mentioned in a recent post here, was unusually well-travelled throughout the Philippine archipelago and was unusually diverse in his training-- including being accepted into training with Muslims in the south.  It was out of this diverse training that he came to use the world Kali with Guro Inosanto.

But PLEASE do not take my word for any of this.  Remember, I am a highly unreliable conduit.  Guro Inosanto is out there on seminars well over 40 weekends a year.  Why not ask him?  Do know however, that he can have both a highly developed sense of wanting people to feel at ease as well as a desire to avoid conflict in such matters with vexatious persons.  

Concerning the latter point, given what I have seen him deal with over the years, he has my understanding, my sympathy and my deepest respect.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2004, 09:29:22 PM »

<<I've met quite a few Filipinos who use "Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali", as a 'catch all' phrase for their school. Atty. Dionisio Canete has been known to use the phrase. But, ask him about 'Kali' in Bisaya, and he'll just chuckle and say something like 'if that's what they use outside, won't hurt us to use it to'. >>

Just a note Rodger... the phrase I was refering to was the "Mother Art" one not the one above since that was the phrase that is causing most of the heat between folks.


--Rafael--
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Anonymous
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« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2004, 04:40:19 AM »

Rodger,

Great Link! Thanks!

Kali is the mother art.
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Rodger
Guest
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2004, 04:41:05 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous


Kali is the mother art.


OK... rolleyes
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Anonymous
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« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2004, 01:53:21 AM »

http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa051202a.htm

"Who is Kali?
Kali is the fearful and ferocious form of the mother goddess Durga. She assumed the form of a powerful goddess and became popular with the composition of the Devi Mahatmya, a text of the 5th - 6th century AD. Here she is depicted as having born from the brow of Goddess Durga during one of her battles with the evil forces. As the legend goes, in the battle, Kali was so much involved in the killing spree that she got carried away and began destroying everything in sight. To stop her, Lord Shiva threw himself under her feet. Shocked at this sight, Kali stuck out her tongue in astonishment, and put an end to her homicidal rampage. Hence the common image of Kali shows her in her m?l?e mood, standing with one foot on Shiva's chest, with her enormous tongue stuck out.

The Fearful Symmetry
Kali is represented with perhaps the fiercest features amongst all the world's deities. She has four arms, with a sword in one hand and the head of a demon in another."

Could it be that after the Spanish invading the islands and tried to impose Christianity on them that they'd invoke such a Goddess of Destruction onto their very krisis and other swords?
Just food for thought but it also goes along with the superstition of anting anting.
If a people could wish good things onto charms why not the Mother Goddess of Destruction onto their weapons?
Anyhow, hope this sheds some light onto a situation that'll probably not ever find rest due to the fact that history is only as certain as its tellers.

Why can't we just all get along and agree that Kali generally refers to the sworded arts that developed after metalurgy arrived.
Arnis developed when the "lightning sticks" as the Spanish referred to them - were brought to the Spanish court and the escrimadores were brought before the King to demonstrate their art while wearing the protective garments or "arnes" which the Spaniards had used for fencing.
Thus, the sport of Arnis.

And escrima - to fence with sticks, is the non-bladed art - which involves 360 points of the circumference with which to hit, as well as the top and the bottom of the stick - as opposed to the sword art which generally includes only the point and the blade - ok, if you want to hit with the butt of the sword or parry and clear with the side or the backside of the blade you can throw those in too - but you get the picture.

What is best?
Maybe we should all just go ask Conan? smiley just kidding.

But regardless of what we agree to call it - kali, escrima, arnis or others.
Heck, it's all martial arts - arts dealing with war - and these - filipino arts.

What's really interested is how did we get here from the poster's original question?

Anyhow, I have never seen a real filipino stick, knife, or sword fight.
I think that's what he meant.
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Rodger
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« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2004, 04:55:53 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous


Could it be that after the Spanish invading the islands and tried to impose Christianity on them that they'd invoke such a Goddess of Destruction onto their very krisis and other swords? Just food for thought but it also goes along with the superstition of anting anting. If a people could wish good things onto charms why not the Mother Goddess of Destruction onto their weapons?


This would make sense if there was a region, island, or town in the Philippines that was Hindu or still is Hindu.

Quote
Why can't we just all get along and agree that Kali generally refers to the sworded arts that developed after metalurgy arrived.


Leo Giron, and others who use Eskrima and Arnis, used the blade in WWII.  They didn't call their art Kali.  The Filipino muslims who use the Kampilan and Barong swords do not use Kali.

Quote
Arnis developed when the "lightning sticks" as the Spanish referred to them - were brought to the Spanish court and the escrimadores were brought before the King to demonstrate their art while wearing the protective garments or "arnes" which the Spaniards had used for fencing. Thus, the sport of Arnis.


Leo Giron wouldn't categorize his art as a mere sport.  

Quote
And escrima - to fence with sticks, is the non-bladed art - which involves 360 points of the circumference with which to hit, as well as the top and the bottom of the stick - as opposed to the sword art which generally includes only the point and the blade - ok, if you want to hit with the butt of the sword or parry and clear with the side or the backside of the blade you can throw those in too - but you get the picture.


Eskrima was taken from the Spanish esgrima, which just means to fence (not fence with sticks).  To say, "non-bladed art" is again wrong since in WWII the people who used 'Eskrima' used blades.  If you train with those who use Eskrima and Arnis in the Philippines, you'd realize that they still do use blades, either long or short.

The categorization of Kali as the more deadly bladed art, compared to the less deadly arts of Arnis and Eskrima, since they only use sticks in a sport context is detrimental to the over all picture of FMA.

The Kali propaganda has many flaws.  When it is promoted as 'the mother art' or 'the bladed art', you are missing the reality of Filipino martial arts.  

Kali is not the lesser art, or is it the better art.  When we say the propaganda behind Kali is flawed, it just means historically, and culturally, Kali does not exist in the Philippines (again, if it does, where does it exist in the Philippines?).  

All arts that begin with weapons in the Philippines, train in blades.  They just do this in varying degrees, with most preferring the short blade, while the Filipinos who still live in rural areas prefer the longer blades.  They don't call it Kali.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2004, 05:00:31 PM »

Woof All:

Back when in this thread I was posting about Guro Inosanto and Manong LaCoste and LaCoste as a source for him of Kali, I emailed him to correct me if I had misstated anything.  His reply, quoted here with permission:

BEGIN

Marc:
    Your reply is fine. Kali probably had many names in ancient times before the coming of the Spanish in the Philippines.  Such as Kalirogan. Kaliradman. Kali-Kali and Pagkalikali to name a few.

END

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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Rodger
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« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2004, 05:52:51 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Woof All:

Back when in this thread I was posting about Guro Inosanto and Manong LaCoste and LaCoste as a source for him of Kali, I emailed him to correct me if I had misstated anything.  His reply, quoted here with permission:

BEGIN

Marc:
    Your reply is fine. Kali probably had many names in ancient times before the coming of the Spanish in the Philippines.  Such as Kalirogan. Kaliradman. Kali-Kali and Pagkalikali to name a few.

END

Woof,
Crafty Dog
[/size]

Thank you for sharing Mr. Inosanto's views here.  

I have a few follow up questions, if you don't mind:

1.  Kalirongan is used in Luzon, I still have not met anyone who uses Kaliradman, although this is said to be Bisaya (maybe it is still used, maybe not).  But, can you tell us where 'Kali-Kali' or 'pagKaliKali' is used? ('pag' in Tagalog and Bisaya is the prefix for verbs).

The 'KaliKalihan" festival in the island of Negros was an invention of GT Leo Gaje in the early 1980s.  'pagKaliKali' might just be this also (I am not sure, this is why I'm asking).

2.  Do these words, Kalirongan, Kaliradman, Kali-Kali, pagKaliKali, carry the same "ancient mother art" or only "bladed art" rhetoric involved with the Kali used in the US? or, are they more similar to Eskrima and Arnis?

3.  Do these words carry any propaganda element at all, like the Kali of America?
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Rodger
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« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2004, 06:01:12 PM »

A cultural note:

Kaliskis, Kalibangan, Kalinog, Kalipay, Kalinaw, Kaligo, Kaliwat, Kalimot, etc. etc.

Those are just a few words in Tagalog, Bisaya, and Ilongo that have Kali as the first two syllables.  Ka- is a common prefix in Filipino languages.
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2004, 06:31:03 PM »

Just an addition to the 'kali' sounding words.
On an ancient tombstone in Bud Agad, there is an inscription written in Arabic that reads, "KALIMAH" which means "Profession of the Faith" page 206 MUSLIMS IN THE PHILIPPINES.

--Rafael--
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2004, 07:32:29 PM »

Woof Rodger:

Please forgive me but I have zero interest in investing more of my time with Guro Inosanto with this.  

My original post (please feel free to go back and find it and the surrounding posts as well) merely stated my understanding of where Guro Inosanto got his use of the term-- that it included Manong John LaCoste.  Manong LaCoste was a widely travelled man who lived until he was murdered in 1973 at the age of 89.  Figure out for yourself when he was born and contemplate how much language has changed since his youth in the various languages that he encountered in his travels and how little record there is of them during these years.  I am, ahem, only 52  shocked and I note that the terms of my youth have come and gone in a far more recorded time (our "revoultion" was televised after all) --and its groovy.  

I appreciate that for those who require definitive provable answers that this lack of certainty can be frustrating, but well, life can be like that.

If you ever meet Guro I. and wish to use your time with him discussing this further, then by all means be my guest.  

As for me, I'm out.  We use "Kali in America" and we do not do "propaganda".  

Have a nice day.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2004, 07:43:29 PM »

In the Sultanate of Sulu, the term KALI exists, it means the same as the chief Qadi and he is called the TUAN KALI.

The title is given by the Sultan who is held as the highest rank over all others due to his placement in their culture and religion. The Sultan was given this right upon the old agreement between the first Sultan and the ancient Moros.

So the word KALI exists in the islands. It means, "ecclesiastical official" from the writings by Cesar Adib Majul.

--Rafael--
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Robin Padilla
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« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2004, 08:19:20 PM »

Rodger,

BEGIN
"1. Kalirongan is used in Luzon, I still have not met anyone who uses Kaliradman, although this is said to be Bisaya (maybe it is still used, maybe not). But, can you tell us where 'Kali-Kali' or 'pagKaliKali' is used? ('pag' in Tagalog and Bisaya is the prefix for verbs)"
END

One of my previous posts in this thread describes which indigineous tribe uses 'Kali-Kali' and 'pagkalikali'.

I got these information from 'Secrets of Arnis'. Like Lacoste, Edgar Sulite had travelled throughout the islands and learned from many people. Among his travels he learned that Kali is the mother art and published it in his book.

BEGIN
"Leo Giron wouldn't categorize his art as a mere sport. "
END

Who in FMA wants to categorize their art as sport? Kali, the mother art, and Arnis and Eskrima, her bastard Spanish children are all combative. However as time passed some of them became dance or sport.

I watched a dogbrothers movie and Leo Giron specifically expresses his interest in turning the art into a sport.

BEGIN
"3. Do these words carry any propaganda element at all, like the Kali of America?"
END

In Arnis Eskrima and Kali history, there is always propaganda. Propaganda to promote Christianity, to promote the Spanish Victory over Soliman in Luzon, Propaganda that my kung fu is better than your kung fu because we have adopted judo throws into our system etc.

BEGIN
"Eskrima was taken from the Spanish esgrima, which just means to fence (not fence with sticks). To say, "non-bladed art" is again wrong since in WWII the people who used 'Eskrima' used blades. If you train with those who use Eskrima and Arnis in the Philippines, you'd realize that they still do use blades, either long or short. "
END

Also remember that the Spanish outlawed bladed arts among the indios. So the locals, wanting to please the Spanish practiced their art with sticks and it was renamed Eskrima for fencing, or arnes based on the armor.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2004, 11:59:38 PM »

BEGIN

Who in FMA wants to categorize their art as sport? Kali, the mother art, and Arnis and Eskrima, her bastard Spanish children are all combative. However as time passed some of them became dance or sport.

I watched a dogbrothers movie and Leo Giron specifically expresses his interest in turning the art into a sport.

END

That would be the video "The Grandfathers Speak" with which we open the series "Dog Brothers Martial Arts".  My purpose was to begin the series showing respect to some of the grandfathers who brought the Art to us here in America.  

IIRC, we begin the video with GM Giron saying "Eskrima is the science of bolo knife fighting, but we use sticks so nobody gets killed."  

Again IIRC his comments about turning the Art into a sport were in the context of operating in America without getting shut down.  Few men appreciated the martial realities as deeply as GM Giron.

Forgive me the advertising, but I would not be worthy of my sobriquet if I failed to mention that we are in the process of converting our videos to DVD and look to have goodies in each DVD not present in the video version.  For the "Grandfathers" conversion I'm thinking to use a goodly portion of a 35 minute interview I did with GM Giron is his training hall in the basement of his house.

I admired this man greatly and treasure the occasions I had with him.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2004, 12:32:39 AM »

In relation to the first post and in no relation to any of the sub topics mentioned in this post I think the closest thing I have seen to somewhat of a Kali ?fight was with a pool stick.  In this situation the kid had no clue what to do but instinct directed him on how to swing and he clocked his opponent at least twice before the stick broke and the other guy charged him taking it to the ground.  Obviously the chances of two people just happening to have two pairs of sticks to fight with are slim to none and all of the training used in Kali can be relayed down any type of object, from beer bottles to bar stools all is relevant.
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Rodger
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« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2004, 12:38:30 AM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla


In Arnis Eskrima and Kali history, there is always propaganda. Propaganda to promote Christianity, to promote the Spanish Victory over Soliman in Luzon, Propaganda that my kung fu is better than your kung fu because we have adopted judo throws into our system etc.



Actually, I was just referring to two specific rhetorical phrases, "Kali is the art of the blade" and "Kali is the mother art".  The "mother art" propaganda has no basis (evidence).

And as we can see, Kali being the art of the blade, also has no basis, since every art in the Philippines is blade oriented, or atleast train with blades.  

Now, it is expected in martial arts that lesser people will go around comparing each others' arts.  We are not comparing arts here, but rather speaking and arguing historically, and culturally.  And in this regard, Eskrima and Arnis are devoid of propaganda.

It is true that words come and go, but to say "kali is the mother art and is found in the philippines", then be at a completely lost to support that claim is questionable.  If the word, with the definition it has been given (not its muslim/arabic sounding cognate), does not exist in the Philippines now within a span of 50 to 100 years, we must hold this word (with its meaning) suspect.




Words like Anting-Anting, Hilot, and others are old Filipino words, which only a select few in the Philippines either possess or practice, yet these words still survive throughout the Philippines.  Why hasn't Kali (again, with the meaning you've given it) survived?
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« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2004, 01:05:59 AM »

Rodger:

You seem to speak English very well, yet for some reason my words are not registering.

I make no claims concerning mother art or any of the rest of it.   Have you bothered to go back in the thread as I suggested so that you may have the proper context for my remarks, and thus for the remarks of Guro Inosanto?

"If the word, with the definition it has been given (not its muslim/arabic sounding cognate), does not exist in the Philippines now within a span of 50 to 100 years, we must hold this word (with its meaning) suspect."

Again, words offered in conversation seem to fail to register.  Are we to be dogs barking at each other across a fence or are we men communicating?  There is the Mirafuentes introduction, and there is Guro Inosanto's recounting of what he learned from Manong LaCoste.  If you think him a liar, then say so.  

grrrr,
Crafty Dog
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Robin Padilla
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« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2004, 05:24:20 AM »

Just in case some of you think otherwise....
Let it be known, that Robin Padilla is the one responsible for claiming on this forum that Kali is the mother art, not Guro Crafty.

BEGIN
"but to say "kali is the mother art and is found in the philippines", then be at a completely lost to support that claim is questionable."
END

Again, to support this fact we have evidence from Edgar Sulite's books. We have evidence from Dan Inosanto's Books who learned of Kali from LaCoste. It is also fact that Villabrille called his art Kali. Now, did one day, Villabrille and LaCoste hang out in the Asparagus fields of Stockton and decided to be propagandists and make a propaganda for FMA by coining the phrase "Kali"? I don't think so.

Does anyone know if Villabrille and Lacoste even met?  

BEGIN
"If the word, with the definition it has been given (not its muslim/arabic sounding cognate), does not exist in the Philippines now within a span of 50 to 100 years, we must hold this word (with its meaning) suspect."
END

50 years huh? OK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Yambao book published in 1947? If so, then Kali is about 3 years short of 50 years. Close enough.

What about Arnis and Eskrima? Is there any evidence within a span of 50 to 100 years that these terms preceed Kali (the mother art)?

Hmmm...Maybe someone can track down the Yambao/Mirafuentes people and inquire about Kali (the mother art).
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Rodger
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« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2004, 12:05:10 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Rodger:
I make no claims concerning mother art or any of the rest of it.   Have you bothered to go back in the thread as I suggested so that you may have the proper context for my remarks, and thus for the remarks of Guro Inosanto?
[/size]

Sorry, I was addressing Robin Padilla.  Whenever I quote, "kali is the mother art", I'm addressing Robin Padilla.



Quote
Again, words offered in conversation seem to fail to register.  Are we to be dogs barking at each other across a fence or are we men communicating?  There is the Mirafuentes introduction, and there is Guro Inosanto's recounting of what he learned from Manong LaCoste.  If you think him a liar, then say so.  
[/size]

As for the Juan Lacoste/Kali connection, I have already posted the questions to try to verify this.  Personally, this is my take on the Lacoste/Kali connection.  And please keep in mind, this is just my opinion.  

Mr. Lacoste was born somewhere in the Visayas, most likely Cebu.  He was said to have travelled throughout the Philippines.  This is nothing special in the Philippines, especially if you live in the coastal region of the Visayas.  If you hang around in the ports of Cebu (especially back at the turn of the century), chances are you'll be able to hop on a steamer and end up in Zamboanga, Cagayan de Oro, Isabela, Cotabato, Tawi-Tawi, etc.  

Mr. Lacoste went to California in the early part of the 1920s, 1930s, as many young Filipinos did when the Philippines became an American commonwealth.  These Filipinos comprise the 'Manong' generation.

I asked you earlier whether, Mr. Lacoste called his art Kali, because no Bisayan calls their art Kali.  If I am not mistaken he called his art Moro Moro.  So, I think his use (or rather his introduction to this word) of Kali came later on when he met Mr. Inosanto, having already met Mr. Largusa, in California.  When the word came up, he simply just agreed with it, as many Filipinos tend to do (like Antonio Ilustrisimo), because the name of their art is incidental.

Again, this is just my educated guess, given what little we know of Mr. Lacoste and his relation to the bigger cultural framework in the Visayas.

As for Mr. Inosanto a Liar, I will never refer to the man who brought FMA to the world as such.  But, I will add that although he is Filipino by blood, he has never visited the Philippines, and does not speak a Filipino language (atleast fluently).  So, we must account for all possibilities of translations lost.

1. Floro Villabrille       (Mirafuerte, 1957)  We're still trying to research this.
2. Ben Largusa
3. Dan Inosanto
4. Leo Gaje Jr.

So, if you agree with my little summary of the Lacoste/Kali connection, we still have 4 aces and a wild card.
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Rodger
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« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2004, 12:21:28 PM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla

What about Arnis and Eskrima? Is there any evidence within a span of 50 to 100 years that these terms preceed Kali (the mother art)?
[/size]

What years Arnis and Eskrima became part of the FMA lexicon, is really a non-issue, since no one claims these words to be Ancient or Filipino.  These titles were arbitrarily used by two groups, namely the Bisayas and Tagalogs.  I believe Ilocanos use Kabaro-an.  But, no groups use Kali (atleast none you can come up with). smiley

Quote
Hmmm...Maybe someone can track down the Yambao/Mirafuentes people and inquire about Kali (the mother art).
[/size]

If we can figure out how Mirafuertes came up with Kali, we'll be able to connect the dots.  As I've said we have 4 guys and Mirafuerte in 1957. During the 1950s, Villabrille and Largusa were in Hawaii.




On a side note, did Mr. Sulite travel all over the Philippines, or did he just travel around the Visayas region (northern Mindanao, Leyte, Negros, Cebu, etc.).  Because out of the 40 or so, masters in his book, about 35 to 37 were Bisayas, and most were from Cebu.  One Cebuano was connected to Kali, Antonio Ilustrimo.  But, we later learned the truth about that connection.
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Rodger
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« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2004, 12:22:27 PM »

On a side note, did Mr. Sulite travel all over the Philippines, or did he just travel around the Visayas region (northern Mindanao, Leyte, Negros, Cebu, etc.). Because out of the 40 or so, masters in his book, about 35 to 37 were Bisayas, and most were from Cebu. One Cebuano was connected to Kali, Antonio Ilustrimo. But, we later learned the truth about that connection.
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Crafty Dog
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« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2004, 02:44:42 PM »

Woof All:

With an eye to closing my participation in this thread, this summary:

1) Assertions were made that the Villabrille, Gaje, Illustrisimo claims of Kali had been disproven.  

I am no historian, and these individuals and groups are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.

2)  Assertions were made that Guro Inosanto's use of the term Kali descended from Villabrille, Gaje and Illustrisimo and that the four of them comprised the sources of the term Kali and thus in that V, G, & I had been defeated in scholarly debate, that Kali had been defeated as a term of legitimate use-- thus only the illegitimate used the term.

3) At this point I interjected my disagreement with this conclusion.  IMHO this conclusion has NOT been determined beyond a reasonable doubt.  
   
In evidence of this I noted the Mirafuentes introduction to Yambao (the year on this is not clear to me-- I have seen references in this thread to the late 1940s through the late 1957) and stated that Guro Inosanto's usage of Kali came principally from Manong LaCoste.  Thus the Kali doubters could not yet claim victory should one agree with their assertions of defeating V, G, & I (and the V & G people may very well disagree!)

My post a couple of pages back stated:

BEGIN

Guro Inosanto also received the term from Manong Juan LaCoste. JLC was murdered in 1973 IIRC at the age of 89, which would mean he was born around 1884. The story of his travels in the Philippines is fairly well known, and for him the term Kali was quite valid. In that he was Guro Inosanto's principal FMA teacher, I would give him principal credit for Guro I's use of the term Kali.

END

This seems plain enough in its meaning to me.  A follow-up inquiry asked

"To the best of your knowledge, did manong Juan LaCoste use 'Kali' for the art he practiced? or Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned? Manong Juan LaCoste was Bisaya, they say he was from Cebu, so the fact that he used 'Kali' for his art is very interesting."

I note in passing that he was born in Cebu does not mean his art was Cebuano.  Anyway, I answered this follow-up question:

BEGIN


You are right to use the phrase "To the best of your knowledge" when dealing with me. I am a highly unreliable conduit of knowledge in these matters. As I have related previously elsewhere, during one of the periodic outbreaks of the JKD wars back in the 1980s in a guest column to Inside Kung Fu, I got something wrong that led to a lot of heat on Guro I. It was not until 3 or 4 years later that he gently said something in passing (said so gently I almost missed it) that led me to ask him a question that allowed him to set me straight.

You are also right to ask "Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned?" As a typical clueless American it has taken many years for me to begin to appreciate that there seems to be a cultural difference in Filipino and American culture when it comes to handling differences. Often, the Filipino will 'agree' so as to be 'polite' and the American will openly state his difference. Obviously, Filipinos will often disagree quite vigorously too and I readily admit to not having figured out criteria to predict whether the response will be polite pretense of agreement or passionate ire.  

IIRC the order of Guro Inonsanto's studies, his studies with Manong LaCoste well preceded his training with Largusa and Villabrille.

IIRC Manong LaCoste, as I mentioned in a recent post here, was unusually well-travelled throughout the Philippine archipelago and was unusually diverse in his training-- including being accepted into training with Muslims in the south. It was out of this diverse training that he came to use the world Kali with Guro Inosanto.

But PLEASE do not take my word for any of this. Remember, I am a highly unreliable conduit. Guro Inosanto is out there on seminars well over 40 weekends a year. Why not ask him? Do know however, that he can have both a highly developed sense of wanting people to feel at ease as well as a desire to avoid conflict in such matters with vexatious persons.

Concerning the latter point, given what I have seen him deal with over the years, he has my understanding, my sympathy and my deepest respect.

END

IT IS THESE WORDS THAT GURO INOSANTO RATIFIES WITH HIS ANSWER WHICH I POSTED.

BEGIN

Marc:
Your reply is fine. Kali probably had many names in ancient times before the coming of the Spanish in the Philippines. Such as Kalirogan. Kaliradman. Kali-Kali and Pagkalikali to name a few.

END

Again I was queried on this same point:

BEGIN

I asked you earlier whether, Mr. Lacoste called his art Kali, because no Bisayan calls their art Kali. If I am not mistaken he called his art Moro Moro. So, I think his use (or rather his introduction to this word) of Kali came later on when he met Mr. Inosanto, having already met Mr. Largusa, in California. When the word came up, he simply just agreed with it, as many Filipinos tend to do (like Antonio Ilustrisimo), because the name of their art is incidental.

Again, this is just my educated guess, given what little we know of Mr. Lacoste and his relation to the bigger cultural framework in the Visayas.

END

Your educated guess notwithstanding, the answer remains the same as stated by me and directly affirmed by Guro Inosanto.  MANONG LACOSTE USED THE TERM KALI (amongst others) AND IS THE PRINCIPAL SOURCE OF GURO INOSANTO USING IT AS WELL.  His being born in Cebu is irrelevant.  

I close with this point and by reiterating the matter posed by the Mirafuentes intro.  I know that some anti-kalistas have hypothesized some conspiracy by Stockton CA farm field hands that reached all the way back to the Philippines so thoroughly so long ago that by the time it was written that Mirafuentes thought the term needed no further explanation, but IMHO this is well short of proving one's case Tongue .
 
My position continues to be that the anti-Kalistas have not yet conclusively proven their historical case.  I also continue not being a historian.  I also continue to seek to persuade no one.  I also continue to never assert "mother art" and the like.  I merely defend myself (and my teacher) from insults in the guise of disagreement.

And indeed one may disagree about all this.   Those so inclined to invest their time in these things are free to do so-- including here so long as done in a mutually respectful manner-- and I will continue to be an interested bystander.

 But my hackles go up when it is claimed that there is no honest basis for the Kali side to maintain itself and that to do so implies negative things about those that do so.

I now return to other things.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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Rodger
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« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2004, 03:27:01 PM »

"Dan Inosanto: The Man, The Teacher, The Artist"

Quote

JUANITO (JOHN) LACOSTE

Guro John LaCoste taught Dan kali-escrima-kuntao silat (bersilat) panatukan, dumog-kapulubud, and panjakan. Dan's father, Sebastian, took him to meet LaCoste before Dan went into the army, but it wasn't until 1969 or 1970 that Dan understood what LaCoste was trying to teach him.

Born somewhere in the central Philippines in 1888, Guro LaCoste studied and was familiar with many different styles, but his favorites were the Muslim system of the southern Philippines, especially two styles from the island of Cebu and one from the island of Occidental Negros.

Guro LaCoste moved from the Philippines to Hawaii and was deported after he headed a major labor strike that cost the lives of a dozen farm workers and 22 "policemen." He came back to California several years later, enlisted in the military, and was eventually decorated for heroism. Due to citizenship issues, he borrowed the name "LaCoste" so he could stay longer in the army.

When he was finally discharged, he settled in Stockton, California, where he received several commendations from the Stockton police for catching criminals. Tragically, he was murdered in 1977, shot in the head from behind by a person with whom he'd had a heated political discussion.

According to Guro LaCoste, in one month he could teach anyone how to fight and defeat any style of escrima by showing how to block and counter the first two strikes. From him, Guro Dan learned the versatility of the Filipino martial arts and the use of trapping and checking hands. Guro Dan felt that Guro LaCoste was a master with the stick, dagger, long blade, and empty hands (Inosanto, Foon, and Johnson 1980: 17).

Dan Inosanto believes LaCoste's system was one of the best in providing an overall explanation of the Filipino arts and that LaCoste was one of the best all-around instructors with whom he has studied. LaCoste had 12 categories of instruction and could relate each category to the other, particularly with empty-hand techniques.

LaCoste liked to start students with the long and short sticks derived from the sword-and-dagger method. His feeling was that with a complete comprehension of the long and short weapons, the student would understand the application of the other categories.

LaCoste was a spiritual man whose personal philosophy was that you could learn from anyone. This appealed to Dan Inosanto and was one of the reasons he began to cross-train with other instructors. LaCoste even sent Dan to different kali and escrima instructors, something virtually unheard of in the martial arts world of the early 1960s.

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Rodger
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« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2004, 03:32:29 PM »

18 February 2004 (Martial Arts Planet forum)

Quote from: Dred
I've been trying to get you a concrete answer on this but nobody that I know seems to have that kind of information for sure.

From the 1980 book written by Guro I "The Filipino Martial Arts" I have pulled several dates which can give you an idea of his training with John LaCoste.

1961 - Discharged from military and moved to LA, started training in Kempo with Ed Parker. At some point around the time DI gets a black belt in Kempo, presumably several years later, Ed Parker suggests that DI look into Eskrima

1977 - Death/murder of John LaCoste

1980 - Publication of FMA book in which DI says he's been trying to get a handle of John LaCoste's footwork for about 14 years. Presumably this interview took place 1-2 years before publication (judging by the publication times that we have on books in my company).

So from this I'm postulating that he trained with John LaCoste from about 1963/4 to 1977.

From the description in the book it sounds like the training happened in an ad hoc fashion rather than regular classes. Sorry that I don't have more info. If you like I can bring a copy of the section from the book about John LaCoste with me when we meet up?

Also Guro I will be over in July for his 25th annual seminar - no doubt its a question he'd be happy to answer.

Hope that's useful?

Dred
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Rodger
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« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2004, 03:41:13 PM »

1. Floro Villabrille
2. Ben Largusa
3. Dan Inosanto
4. Leo Gaje Jr.

Questions and Comments:

a.   When did Guro Dan Inosanto first meet and train with Mr. Ben Largusa? What year?

b.   From the dates above training of Guro Dan Inosanto with Juan LaCoste puts it around mid-1960s to late-1960s, until his death in 1977.

c.   If Guro Dan Inosanto trained with Mr. Ben Largusa, while he trained with Mr. Juan LaCoste, is there a chance that the word and concept of Kali transferred from Largusa, to Inosanto, then to LaCoste, who merely agreed to the term?

(more to come...)
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baseballbatkali
Guest
« Reply #87 on: September 26, 2004, 11:34:59 PM »

rodger,history is gay.kali is what we call it now.you should worry about how to not get hit with a stick cus all those dates and shit is just gay.
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Guard Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 654


« Reply #88 on: September 26, 2004, 11:43:41 PM »

Quote from: Rodger
1. Floro Villabrille
2. Ben Largusa
3. Dan Inosanto
4. Leo Gaje Jr.

Questions and Comments:

a.   When did Guro Dan Inosanto first meet and train with Mr. Ben Largusa? What year?

b.   From the dates above training of Guro Dan Inosanto with Juan LaCoste puts it around mid-1960s to late-1960s, until his death in 1977.

c.   If Guro Dan Inosanto trained with Mr. Ben Largusa, while he trained with Mr. Juan LaCoste, is there a chance that the word and concept of Kali transferred from Largusa, to Inosanto, then to LaCoste, who merely agreed to the term?

(more to come...)


Good questions,
  I am interested also.  It is fun, interesting and educational to piece together history!

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Rodger
Guest
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2004, 11:21:09 PM »

Quote from: baseballbatkali
rodger,history is gay.kali is what we call it now.you should worry about how to not get hit with a stick cus all those dates and shit is just gay.
[/size]

It's comments like this, that keep us Filipinos in the dark (forever not knowing our own history).  History is "just gay".  This is the most ignorant thing anyone can say.

We're asking questions to find out what really happened.  If we ask the right questions, we'll get the right answers.  We've lost too much history already to not care, because it's "just gay".

Quote
Good questions,
I am interested also. It is fun, interesting and educational to piece together history!

Gruhn


Yes, questions like these should not be construed as 'disrespect', but answered for the sake of knowledge.  If the answers support your views, then great.  

If the answers, favor another theory, then people have to be able to switch their perspectives on history.  

If the answers do not contribute anything, then we go back to square one.  But, we will keep on asking questions, this is inevitable.
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Tim Nelson
Guest
« Reply #90 on: October 05, 2004, 02:25:26 PM »

so has anyone seen a real stick fight, or sword fight where FMA training was used? I assume this was the original wuestion, and an interesting one to me that didn't quite go too far in responses.

 I have not, other than dog brothers fights. But unprotected challenge matches or more serious ones. As I have never even heard of one in the modern day.

 For me the big difference of a street fight where it is spontaneous and a match in the future is the anticipation. I would love to hear any responses.  Tim
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Crafty Dog
Guest
« Reply #91 on: October 05, 2004, 04:32:27 PM »

Woof Tim!

How the hell are you?  Come post on the DBMAA forum and let us know!

Crafty

PS: Good observation.
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pepe
Guest
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2004, 10:52:35 AM »

http://www.villabrillelargusakali.com/largusa.htm

"Born on Kauai, Hawaii on December 21, 1926, Grand Master Largusa?s first exposure to Kali came when as a toddler, he watched the Filipino men in his hometown of Kilauea, Kauai, Hawaii practice with the sticks."

"At the 1964 Ed Parker International Karate Championships held in Long Beach, California, he gave America its first demonstration of Kali.  Also in attendance were numerous martial artists from around the world, including Ed Parker, Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto, and Jhoon Rhee."

"As the years passed, he saw the need to perpetuate Villabrille?s teachings and to promote a part of the Filipino heritage.  With Villabrille?s blessing, he began teaching a select group of students privately in his home in South San Francisco, California in 1969."
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