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Author Topic: Has anyone ever seen a real Kali fight?  (Read 33317 times)
Robin Padilla
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Posts: 13


« on: August 12, 2004, 06:06:23 AM »

Hi! I am new and this is my first post.

I was just wondering if anyone has ever been in or witnessed a real Kali fight. Meaning, the fight was in the street and there were no rules. And if you did see one or have been in one, what type of techniques were used and did they have weapons?

I have never seen a real Kali fight so hopefully someone can answer.


Thanks!
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Anonymous
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2004, 10:29:33 AM »

my  friends got in a street fight and one of the guys they fought pulled a chain out of his car and came running at him and swung it at his head.my friend said all he saw was a angle 1.put his arm up and went in with a headbut.the chain wraped around his arm and cliped his ear.but the guy with the chain got a headbut to the face and then his ass rightfully kicked.
came out with a bloody ear.good kali times.
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georgeIII
Guest
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2004, 10:48:20 AM »

what exactly is a "kali" fight, and how is this different from a "regular" fight?
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guest
Guest
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2004, 02:23:51 PM »

A kali fight involves Kali sticks.  No Kali sticks = no Kali fight.  Eskrima and Arnis sticks are not Kali sticks, either.  Often, this happens in book stores when customers linger and don't actually buy anything.   Since they are not actually customers, it's time to break out the Kali sticks.
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Robin Padilla
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Posts: 13


« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2004, 06:40:26 AM »

Whoops! Sorry. When I said a Kali fight, I meant a real fight where the participants know how to use or understand Kali, Eskrima or Arnis. Basically FMA be it stick, knife or empty hand.

I remember reading a story about how during a prison riot, a prison guard trained in Kali basically utilized nothing more than a roof block followed with some kind of strike to all the inmates who attacked him.

guest... I dont understand what you mean when you say Eskrima and Arnis sticks are not Kali sticks though. I thought the weapon was just an extension of the hand and even if you have a rolled up newspaper, it is still considered Kali???
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guest
Guest
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2004, 11:30:16 AM »

The only Cali I know in the Philippines is the soft-drink.  If you put a stick through the can, then it becomes a Cali stick.
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Hot Dogger
Guest
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2004, 11:51:18 AM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla
Whoops! Sorry. When I said a Kali fight, I meant a real fight where the participants know how to use or understand Kali, Eskrima or Arnis. Basically FMA be it stick, knife or empty hand.

I remember reading a story about how during a prison riot, a prison guard trained in Kali basically utilized nothing more than a roof block followed with some kind of strike to all the inmates who attacked him.

guest... I dont understand what you mean when you say Eskrima and Arnis sticks are not Kali sticks though. I thought the weapon was just an extension of the hand and even if you have a rolled up newspaper, it is still co
nsidered Kali???


What Mr. Guest is trying to say is that how can there be such things as kali sticks when a thing like Kali does not exist.

That's why he said Eskrima-Arnis sticks are different.

and the only Cali is the Shandy drink that they have in the Philippines.

did I translate it right mr. guest?
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Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2004, 01:34:25 AM »

Oh. The 'there is no such thing as Kali' topic. LOL

Now, I was never sure if people are saying there was no pre Spanish art or if it simply wasn't called Kali.

Well, who knows what it was called before the arrival of the Spaniards. But it's very funny to see people debate and argue over it.

What do you think the Moros call it? Silat? Kali? Jihad? Definitely not Eskrima or Arnis...But then again "Moro" isn't even an indigineous word. They were named by the Spanish after the Moors who had conquered Spain. So maybe there is no such thing as a Moro.
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Robin Padilla
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Posts: 13


« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2004, 01:37:02 AM »

I made that last post by the way. Sorry but I forget to log in. hehe[/img][/code]
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hot dogger
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2004, 01:32:27 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous
Oh. The 'there is no such thing as Kali' topic. LOL

Now, I was never sure if people are saying there was no pre Spanish art or if it simply wasn't called Kali.

Well, who knows what it was called before the arrival of the Spaniards. But it's very funny to see people debate and argue over it.

What do you think the Moros call it? Silat? Kali? Jihad? Definitely not Eskrima or Arnis...But then again "Moro" isn't even an indigineous word. They were named by the Spanish after the Moors who had conquered Spain. So maybe there is no such thing as a Moro.


well... there was no Philippines...nor Filipinos before the Spaniards came...that's why the "country" was conquered because most tribes/towns/balanghays were fighting for their own safety... all 7,107 islands (and plus perhaps Sabah which was handed to Malaysia by the British instead to the rightful owner, the Sultan of Sulu, who leased the land to the British... and also the Spratley islands and Scarborough shoal that are now partly occupied by China)

...it was only during Gen. Emilio Aguinaldo's time that there was more unity amongs different regions to fight the Spanish...and they eventually became "successful"...

...hence, we "gained" our independence from the Spanish after 300 years... only to be duped by the American Commodore Dewey later  by promising that they were going to help the Filipinos against the Spaniards...instead, the Philippines had a short-lived "independence" in 1898 from the Spanish and got occupied by the Americans who were supposed to help Gen. Aguinaldo...  

...and about the Moros...who knows?... the nearest reference to the word kali is pagkakalikali, which is a word from the Northern Philippines... Moros are from the South...I asked a friend from down south and he told me that the only martial art that their "tribe" knows is Kuntao, and they even refer to it as being "Chinese"...
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2004, 03:55:41 PM »

I suggest that a FMA practitioner does NOT have to shy away from calling the art the 'ancient art of KALI'.

The problem isn't whether or not an 'ancient fighting method' ever existed - no one who has done their research disputes this, but the arguement is whether or not the term KALI was ever used in the islands PRIOR to its popularity in the States (or around that time). That's still up to the folks who want to argue such matters.

Now it may be a weird out of the box suggestion but I don't think a Filipino should have to shy away from calling their FMA the 'ancient art of ARNIS or ESKRIMA' either. The terms still refer to the Filipino's ancient fighting methods.

The Filipino's ANCIENT fighting methods have no UNIFIED name PRIOR to the turn of the century -it NEVER has and NEVER will, so all THREE terms are relatively NEW.  The term, KALI is just used more here in the US and like ARNIS /ESKRIMA it refers to the same ANCIENT art.

The ANCIENT Art isn't uniform in any sense of the word either since as many will tell you- you won't be able to find ten tatangs from different systems who agree on ONE way to do all things. So why begin with the term?

Now another FMA system who uses KALI may not agree with this idea. They might say that the SPANISH influenced words ARNIS/ESKRIMA dilutes the ANCIENT art. I think that's tends to be divisive.

Some Filipinos also have this idea that one has to live in the Philippines to be considered FILIPINO, thus when they say KALI isn't Filipino that's what they are suggesting. Even if SOME of the people who teach and use the term KALI are Filipinos who live in the US.  Even if some of these Filipinos were born in the islands and migrated to the US. I think that's tends to be divisive.

Divided... so what else is new?

--Rafael--
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Jonas
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2004, 11:05:53 PM »

Do we really have to use advertising titles like "ANCIENT", or "LOST", or "the MOTHER ART" to sell our martial arts?

Why can't we just say, this is ARNIS, from Northern Philippines.  And this is Eskrima from the Bisayan region, which is Central Philippines and Northern Mindanao.  The Muslims have adopted Chinese kun tao (way of fist), or kuntaw.  They also have Silat, which they share with their Muslim brethrens in Malaysia and Indonesia.  Plus, we also have KALI, we can't really pin point where this is used in the Philippines, nor can we say which group uses it, but many American-Filipinos use this title.  They are all blade oriented, and weapon based.  They are all effective.

There you go.  So, no one's trying to out do each other, to get more seminar attendance.  No propaganda.  No rhetoric.  Just straight to the point and truthful.
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2004, 01:55:48 AM »

<<Do we really have to use advertising titles like "ANCIENT", or "LOST", or "the MOTHER ART" to sell our martial arts? >>

I wouldn't disagree since in Sayoc Kali one of our mottos is "not the PAST but the Future".

We're proud of the evolution and current representation rather than what someone did five hundred years ago or even five years ago.

--Rafael--
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Robin Padilla
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Posts: 13


« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2004, 05:59:42 PM »

OK. There is no sense in calling the art Arnis, Kali, or Eskrima.

So, from now on let's just call it Karate. eg. Sayoc Karate,
Karates Ilustrisimo, Pekiti Tirsia Karate, Lameco Karate etc..
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Anonymous
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2004, 11:45:10 PM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla
OK. There is no sense in calling the art Arnis, Kali, or Eskrima.

So, from now on let's just call it Karate. eg. Sayoc Karate,
Karates Ilustrisimo, Pekiti Tirsia Karate, Lameco Karate etc..


Sayoc Kali, Kalis Ilustrisimo, Pekiti Tirsia Kali, and LAMECO...  You can name your art anything, but when you start downgrading other arts thru unsubstantiated propaganda, like "our art is the original art from which other arts come from, this is the mother of all arts".  Then you only have two choices: support your claims or change your advertising strategy.  Because now it's become obvious that Kali is neither Ancient nor Filipino.
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Robin Padilla
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Posts: 13


« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2004, 06:56:37 AM »

How could Kali be neither ancient or Filipino?? and How is it so obvious?

Just because some people in the Philippines never heard the word it is obvious that Kali is neither ancient nor Filipino??

Then where do anting anting come from??? Do they come from Arnis? How about the Kampilan? Is that an arnis weapon as well?

I have a book written by Anima that lists describes Filipino Martial Arts.
The book includes, Buno, Dumog, Finger Wrestling, and Kali. It says that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali. This book was written and published in the Philippines by a Filipino long before the internet was invented to allow for this silly debate. You should get the book too. You will recognize that Kali comes from the Philippines and not America.

Kali is the mother art. It employs the use of weapons such as the Kris, Kampilan, Barong. It evolved into Arnis/Eskrima after being outlawed by the Spanish.

If anyone is going to say that Kali does not exist, or is not ancient of Filipino then prove it.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2004, 10:35:59 AM »

I am aware of the Yamboa book with the Mirafuentes intro which references Kali back in the 1950s, but have not heard of this Anima book.   What can you tell us about it?  When, where was it written?  Who is Anima?
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Robin Hud
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2004, 12:08:14 PM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla
How could Kali be neither ancient or Filipino?? and How is it so obvious?

Just because some people in the Philippines never heard the word it is obvious that Kali is neither ancient nor Filipino??

Then where do anting anting come from??? Do they come from Arnis? How about the Kampilan? Is that an arnis weapon as well?

I have a book written by Anima that lists describes Filipino Martial Arts.
The book includes, Buno, Dumog, Finger Wrestling, and Kali. It says that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali. This book was written and published in the Philippines by a Filipino long before the internet was invented to allow for this silly debate. You should get the book too. You will recognize that Kali comes from the Philippines and not America.

Kali is the mother art. It employs the use of weapons such as the Kris, Kampilan, Barong. It evolved into Arnis/Eskrima after being outlawed by the Spanish.

If anyone is going to say that Kali does not exist, or is not ancient of Filipino then prove it.


I am familiar with that book that has too many broad and sweeping subjects but does not go deep as regards to content.


Yes. I read the book before from cover to cover and that was before I ever heard of any internet or even learned to use a computer (I remember those days when you had to put in a systems floppy disc in the a drive to boot the computer).
 
Yes, it is true that it came before the internet in the Phillippines but it was also during that time that Kali was being promoted through the bootleg version of Inosanto's book being sold so cheaply in the bookstores.
The same goes for Blackbelt magazine that always showed these "Kali" stories for all Filipinos to read. So even before the internet came, this heresy gospel of "Kali the mother art" being proliferated by American media has been spreading in the Philippines for a long time.

You are the one supposed to prove that Kali is not the mother art because the status quo in the Philippines is that Arnis and Eskrima are the real deal. And you got it wrong when you mentioned "some people in the Philippines" because the truth is "most people" if I may say 99% of the millions of the total population and perhaps more than 50% of the total percentage of practitioners in the country has never heard of it.
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Rodger
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2004, 12:14:23 PM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla
How could Kali be neither ancient or Filipino?? and How is it so obvious?


Ancient here is pre-Spanish/pure "Filipino".  Keep in mind that the word "filipino" a century ago was only reserved for Spaniards born in the Philippines.  We non-Spanish were called "indios" or indians.  So, already we covered the word Ancient and Filipino as both words relate to one another.  In essence "ancient filipino" is an oxymoron.  You can have an "ancient tagalog" or "ancient tausug", but not "ancient filipino".

Quote
Just because some people in the Philippines never heard the word it is obvious that Kali is neither ancient nor Filipino??


It is not 'some', but Most.  Go to Cagayan de Oro, Bantayan Island, Zamboanga, and Metro Manila, and talk to the old-timers (70 to 80, or even 90 yrs old), and ask them what Kali is?  Further, visit indigenous tribes such as the T'boli, Aetas, Negritos, or Bago'bo's and ask them about Kali.  Both Low land westernized Filipinos and High land tribal filipinos will not be familiar with Kali.

Quote
Then where do anting anting come from??? Do they come from Arnis? How about the Kampilan? Is that an arnis weapon as well?


We know what anting-antings are already.  We also know what a Kampilan is and also what a sundang or bolo or kalis or barong is.  You ask a bisaya or a tagalog or a waray about these things, chances are they'll know what they are, Most will know.  They may not know how to use these things but they'll know what they are.  They'll also know what an orasyon is or an arbolario.  So, these words have nothing to do with Kali, they are independent names of objects.

Quote
I have a book written by Anima that lists describes Filipino Martial Arts. The book includes, Buno, Dumog, Finger Wrestling, and Kali. It says that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali. This book was written and published in the Philippines by a Filipino long before the internet was invented to allow for this silly debate. You should get the book too. You will recognize that Kali comes from the Philippines and not America.


I am afraid I am not familiar with Anima.  What is the title of this book and when was it published? And most importantly, who is Anima? Is he a martial artist? Historian? Buno and Dumog are used in the Visayas as well as in Luzon (also in Mindanao).

"Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali", this is exactly what we are trying to stop.  This notion that Kali is the "deadliest mother art" and a "blade only art".  Leo Giron, called his art 'Arnis' and he employed a bolo in WWII and killed a lot of Japanese with his sword.  Was his killing of enemy soldiers, 'sanitized'? Many Doce Pares fighters in Cebu fought in WWII, they call their art Eskrima, but they too used their bolos and sundangs to kill a lot of the enemy soldiers.  'Sanitized'?

Quote
Kali is the mother art. It employs the use of weapons such as the Kris, Kampilan, Barong. It evolved into Arnis/Eskrima after being outlawed by the Spanish.


This is the old "Kali" propaganda, mostly due to Guro Inosanto's first book, in which he categorizes "Arnis in the North, Eskrima in the Middle, and Kali in the South of the Philippines".  Firstly, the Kris, Kampilan, and Barong are Muslim weapons.  Filipino muslims don't use Kali.  But they do use Kuntaw and Silat, they also use Tausug specific, Maranao, Yakan, and Samal specific terms.  But, no Kali as "the Ancient Filipino art".

Next you would want to prove where this word Kali is used in the Philippines.  Why is it that those who use Kali cannot trace this word to any linguistic group in the Philippines? Do the Tagalogs use Kali? or how about the Ilokanos? or how about the Pampanguenos?

And lastly, if this word was "Filipino" and "Ancient", why are there no natural conjugations of this word?  For example, we have 'digma'an' or 'dirigma' or the guy that does these things is a 'mandirigma' (warrior).  What is the guy that practices Kali called? a Kali-man (like Spider-man?) or a Kalista (like the Starbucks barista?).

So, linguistic, culture, and history are against your propaganda.  If you're going to insist on using Kali, then you'll have to go along with what Sayoc Kali have done: "not the Past, but the Future".  You're going to have to leave behind the old propaganda: "Kali is the Ancient Mother art of the Filipinos".  It just doesn't hold up anymore.
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Robin Hud
Guest
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2004, 12:18:47 PM »

Quote from: Rodger
Quote from: Robin Padilla
How could Kali be neither ancient or Filipino?? and How is it so obvious?


Ancient here is pre-Spanish/pure "Filipino".  Keep in mind that the word "filipino" a century ago was only reserved for Spaniards born in the Philippines.  We non-Spanish were called "indios" or indians.  So, already we covered the word Ancient and Filipino as both words relate to one another.  In essence "ancient filipino" is an oxymoron.  You can have an "ancient tagalog" or "ancient tausug", but not "ancient filipino".

Quote
Just because some people in the Philippines never heard the word it is obvious that Kali is neither ancient nor Filipino??


It is not 'some', but Most.  Go to Cagayan de Oro, Bantayan Island, Zamboanga, and Metro Manila, and talk to the old-timers (70 to 80, or even 90 yrs old), and ask them what Kali is?  Further, visit indigenous tribes such as the T'boli, Aetas, Negritos, or Bago'bo's and ask them about Kali.  Both Low land westernized Filipinos and High land tribal filipinos will not be familiar with Kali.

Quote
Then where do anting anting come from??? Do they come from Arnis? How about the Kampilan? Is that an arnis weapon as well?


We know what anting-antings are already.  We also know what a Kampilan is and also what a sundang or bolo or kalis or barong is.  You ask a bisaya or a tagalog or a waray about these things, chances are they'll know what they are, Most will know.  They may not know how to use these things but they'll know what they are.  They'll also know what an orasyon is or an arbolario.  So, these words have nothing to do with Kali, they are independent names of objects.

Quote
I have a book written by Anima that lists describes Filipino Martial Arts. The book includes, Buno, Dumog, Finger Wrestling, and Kali. It says that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali. This book was written and published in the Philippines by a Filipino long before the internet was invented to allow for this silly debate. You should get the book too. You will recognize that Kali comes from the Philippines and not America.


I am afraid I am not familiar with Anima.  What is the title of this book and when was it published? And most importantly, who is Anima? Is he a martial artist? Historian? Buno and Dumog are used in the Visayas as well as in Luzon (also in Mindanao).

"Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali", this is exactly what we are trying to stop.  This notion that Kali is the "deadliest mother art" and a "blade only art".  Leo Giron, called his art 'Arnis' and he employed a bolo in WWII and killed a lot of Japanese with his sword.  Was his killing of enemy soldiers, 'sanitized'? Many Doce Pares fighters in Cebu fought in WWII, they call their art Eskrima, but they too used their bolos and sundangs to kill a lot of the enemy soldiers.  'Sanitized'?

Quote
Kali is the mother art. It employs the use of weapons such as the Kris, Kampilan, Barong. It evolved into Arnis/Eskrima after being outlawed by the Spanish.


This is the old "Kali" propaganda, mostly due to Guro Inosanto's first book, in which he categorizes "Arnis in the North, Eskrima in the Middle, and Kali in the South of the Philippines".  Firstly, the Kris, Kampilan, and Barong are Muslim weapons.  Filipino muslims don't use Kali.  But they do use Kuntaw and Silat, they also use Tausug specific, Maranao, Yakan, and Samal specific terms.  But, no Kali as "the Ancient Filipino art".

Next you would want to prove where this word Kali is used in the Philippines.  Why is it that those who use Kali cannot trace this word to any linguistic group in the Philippines? Do the Tagalogs use Kali? or how about the Ilokanos? or how about the Pampanguenos?

And lastly, if this word was "Filipino" and "Ancient", why are there no natural conjugations of this word?  For example, we have 'digma'an' or 'dirigma' or the guy that does these things is a 'mandirigma' (warrior).  What is the guy that practices Kali called? a Kali-man (like Spider-man?) or a Kalista (like the Starbucks barista?).

So, linguistic, culture, and history are against your propaganda.  If you're going to insist on using Kali, then you'll have to go along with what Sayoc Kali have done: "not the Past, but the Future".  You're going to have to leave behind the old propaganda: "Kali is the Ancient Mother art of the Filipinos".  It just doesn't hold up anymore.



very well said!
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2004, 02:29:00 PM »

BEGIN:

This is the old "Kali" propaganda, mostly due to Guro Inosanto's first book, in which he categorizes "Arnis in the North, Eskrima in the Middle, and Kali in the South of the Philippines". Firstly, the Kris, Kampilan, and Barong are Muslim weapons. Filipino muslims don't use Kali. But they do use Kuntaw and Silat, they also use Tausug specific, Maranao, Yakan, and Samal specific terms. But, no Kali as "the Ancient Filipino art".  

END

Umm, IIRC Guro Inosanto says nothing-- the essays therein quote his teachers.  This point has been made MANY times.

DBMA uses the term Kali.  We do not and have never made any claims about mother art, etc.   Those who continue to claim the term has NO validity need to address the Mirafuentes intro (1951? 1958?) to the Yambao book.

That said, the term has come to be a popular one here in the US-- usually without claims of mother art-hood etc.  Regardless of how the tempest of the historians amongst us (certainly not me) turns out, I suspect it will continue to be a popular term.  For the typical American mind the linguistic, tribal, cultural complexities of the Philippines are overwhelming and in the face of tremendous heated diversity amongst Filipinos for us to hold an opinion in these matters feels like it would be a matter of random and arbitrary choice.  

I'm going to the gym to work on my Kali outside diamond for MMA.

Woof to all,
Crafty Dog
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Rodger
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2004, 03:01:08 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog

Umm, IIRC Guro Inosanto says nothing-- the essays therein quote his teachers.  This point has been made MANY times.


mostly due to Guro Inosanto's first book, in which he categorizes "Arnis in the North, Eskrima in the Middle, and Kali in the South of the Philippines".  Guro Inosanto has never been to the Philippines.  So, we pretty much already know that he's speaking on behalf of some of his teachers.  Specifically, Villabrille and Largusa's use of Kali.

Quote
DBMA uses the term Kali.  We do not and have never made any claims about mother art, etc.   Those who continue to claim the term has NO validity need to address the Mirafuentes intro (1951? 1958?) to the Yambao book.


As far as Mirafuertes' use of Kali, the jury is still out.  I believe Mr. Galang (from Bakbakan) will be coming out with a book on this subject.  Some have pointed out that Kali is used among Ilokanos.  Others have said that Kali is the truncated version of Kalirongan.  There's also another version which states that Mirafuertes got this term from Villabrille in the 1950s on his return from Hawaii.  Hopefully, we'll get more info.

Quote
That said, the term has come to be a popular one here in the US-- usually without claims of mother art-hood etc.  Regardless of how the tempest of the historians amongst us (certainly not me) turns out, I suspect it will continue to be a popular term.  For the typical American mind the linguistic, tribal, cultural complexities of the Philippines are overwhelming and in the face of tremendous heated diversity amongst Filipinos for us to hold an opinion in these matters feels like it would be a matter of random and arbitrary choice.


The popularity of Kali is obvious.  Specially, now in Hollywood with the "Borne" series, the Hunted, and other movies.  And every time Kali is introduced to non-Filipinos, it is with the propaganda that "it is the mother art".  If you do not agree with this then try this little exercise:  say a new student comes in and learns Kali from you, then after training, he asks you what Kali is and how it's different from Arnis and Eskrima.  How do you explain Kali vis a vis Arnis and Eskrima? (there will always be this exotic element that Kali is Blade, Ancient, and the Mother of all art Filipino. then he asks what part of the Philippines it's from.)

Further, the reality of Kali and the rhetoric behind this word is more like Robin Padilla's notion of Kali, and he got this from magazines, teachers, and books (like Inosanto's).  A great many Kali instructors are not like DB or Sayoc Kali, a great many of them go around spewing the same propaganda Robin Padilla swallowed.  And therein lies the problem, because it is the miseducation of our own countrymen.

Quote
I'm going to the gym to work on my Kali outside diamond for MMA.


OK... I'll be working on my Kalibangan sa Lubot (that is the Ancient name of my art, passed down from my father, his father, and his father's father, and my grandmother's uncle. it is a deadly art.)
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2004, 12:22:36 AM »

<<OK. There is no sense in calling the art Arnis, Kali, or Eskrima.

So, from now on let's just call it Karate. eg. Sayoc Karate,
Karates Ilustrisimo, Pekiti Tirsia Karate, Lameco Karate etc..>>

Robin,
Isn't this akin to opening a can of worms and pouring them into a vat of worms?

Using Karate in the description would just lead to more confusion.

--Rafael--
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Anonymous
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2004, 02:36:25 AM »

So, after all of this, there are no Kali sticks with which to beat perennial browsers or loiterers at the book store.   So, with what should be beat them with?
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2004, 03:28:29 AM »

That's funny guest.

BEGIN
And every time Kali is introduced to non-Filipinos, it is with the propaganda that "it is the mother art". If you do not agree with this then try this little exercise: say a new student comes in and learns Kali from you, then after training, he asks you what Kali is and how it's different from Arnis and Eskrima. How do you explain Kali vis a vis Arnis and Eskrima? (there will always be this exotic element that Kali is Blade, Ancient, and the Mother of all art Filipino. then he asks what part of the Philippines it's from.)
END

I would certainly contest the assertion here about "EVERY time Kali is introduced".  Maybe its just that we may travel in different circles (and I travel more than most) but in fact I definitely doubt that its any more than a small minority of the time that one runs into this.  Most people I know think its simply uncool to talk that way.

As for what I say when someone asks me, I say that it seems to be a matter of baffling quasi-theological importance to some Filipinos and that I stay as far away from seeking to persuade anybody of anything as I can.   I say that some attack us for our use of the term, but that I receive the term from my teacher Guro Inosanto and I think it has merit.  

yip!
Crafty Dog
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Anonymous
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2004, 10:25:50 AM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog


I would certainly contest the assertion here about "EVERY time Kali is introduced".  Maybe its just that we may travel in different circles (and I travel more than most) but in fact I definitely doubt that its any more than a small minority of the time that one runs into this.  Most people I know think its simply uncool to talk that way.


FYI: In the Philippines, because of a few returning Filipinos (from the US), Kali is becoming popular.  They have websites, tv programs, European/American students, govertment backing, and good funding. We already know Kali is basically Arnis and Eskrima with a different title.  70% of the terminology is Spanish, with some spatterings of Filipino.  But, the danger here is that people like Robin Padilla are being miseducated about the realities of this title.  So, now you have hundreds of young Filipinos in the Philippines going around saying, "Kali is the mother art, Arnis is the sanitized version".  This is not only wrong, but very disrespectful to the eskrimadors who stayed here, and never set foot on American soil.
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Robin Padilla
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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2004, 10:53:20 AM »

I think it's wonderful that "hundreds of young Filipinos in the Philippines going around saying, "Kali is the mother art, Arnis is the sanitized version".

Don't worry Guest. There is absolutely no danger and no miseducation regarding this matter.

If you can read and write in Alibata, there is Kali in the Alphabet. It is impossible to conjure up either Arnis or Eskrima.

Go to the mountains and ask an Igorot.. They will recognize the word Kali but more than they will the other names.

Yambao's book references Kali, and all we get are excuses to further perpetuate the argument that Kali does not exist. "Well....Villabrille made up Kali when he went to Hawaii"

Antonio Ilustrisimo himself called his art Kali. How did he manage to name his art Kali if he lived and died in the Philippines? Do you think he came up with the word Kali when he was in New York?

It is about time that the Pinoys recognize the terms Arnis and Eskrima are evolutions of Kali the mother art as a result of Spanish occupation.

It is silly if any eskrimadors believe this is disrespectful or wrong.

What I find disrespectful is the fact that certain individuals from certain schools..just because they're teacher called their art "Arnis" only decide that it is wrong and disrespectful for other fighters from a different region to call it Kali.
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Rodger
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« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2004, 12:04:54 PM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla
I think it's wonderful that "hundreds of young Filipinos in the Philippines going around saying, "Kali is the mother art, Arnis is the sanitized version".


Miseducation and Ignorance...

Quote
If you can read and write in Alibata, there is Kali in the Alphabet. It is impossible to conjure up either Arnis or Eskrima.


You can also find syllables like KA and SI, or KA and BI, or KA and TI.  You can find these syllables in other languages too.  As far as Arnis and Eskrima go, we've already noted that they are filipinized Spanish words.

Quote
Go to the mountains and ask an Igorot.. They will recognize the word Kali but more than they will the other names.


Will the Igorot recognize Kali as the "Ancient Mother art of the Philippines"? Is this what they call their Art?  Tuhon Rafael is from Northern Luzon, maybe he can verify that claim.

[/quote]Yambao's book references Kali, and all we get are excuses to further perpetuate the argument that Kali does not exist. "Well....Villabrille made up Kali when he went to Hawaii"
Quote


Like we already said, Mirafuerte's use of Kali is still under investigation.  But, realistically, if this is your only evidence of Kali, then your argument is weak.

Quote
Antonio Ilustrisimo himself called his art Kali. How did he manage to name his art Kali if he lived and died in the Philippines? Do you think he came up with the word Kali when he was in New York?


Correction, it's Kalis Ilustrisimo.  Tatang Ilustrisimo said he called it Kali upon the insistence of GT Leo Gaje Jr. after coming from NY.  Mr. Rey Galang will be coming out with a book later this year.  But, read "Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo".  Tatang Ilustrisimo is from Bantayan Island, Cebu.  He's always called his art Eskrima.  His nephew and student was Floro Villabrille.  Kalis is a sword, related to Keris.

Quote
It is about time that the Pinoys recognize the terms Arnis and Eskrima are evolutions of Kali the mother art as a result of Spanish occupation.


You don't listen to reason.  People in this forum have already made it clear that this propaganda is obsolete.  They use the term Kali also, but they don't use the same propaganda you're using.  This was true in the 1970s, but not anymore.

Quote
It is silly if any eskrimadors believe this is disrespectful or wrong.

What I find disrespectful is the fact that certain individuals from certain schools..just because they're teacher called their art "Arnis" only decide that it is wrong and disrespectful for other fighters from a different region to call it Kali.


You using the term Kali is not the issue here, but rather the propaganda you use along with this term.  This is disrespectful.  When you say that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali, you're basically saying Arnis is the lesser art (in the end of course, it's the individual that makes the art).  

So, when we're correcting you, it is just to give you the other perspective, long overlooked, that Kali stands on very shaky grounds.

"other fighters from a different region to call it Kali."  Which region are these 'other fighters' from in the Philippines, exactly?

Miseducation of your own culture and history is a dangerous thing.  Because before long you will start spewing Kali in the Bothoan school, or the Code of Kalantaw, or other BS.  You'll be misrepresenting your own culture.  This may not be important for Americans, but for Filipinos who only have so little of their culture intact, it is crucial.  Think. Discern.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2004, 04:24:55 PM »

Rodger,

I am not using Yambao's book as evidence to Kali. In fact I have not even read the book but am very happy that Rey Galang has reissued it.

One book I will use as evidence however, is Punong Guro Edgar Sulite's
"Secrets of Arnis"

In this book it says Antonio Ilustrisimo is a Kali Master from Cebu and that Kali is the pre-Hispanic martial art. In the whole entire book, this is the only section I recall that mentions Kali.

As far as KaliS Ilustrisimo...wasn't that S added only 2 years ago?

But if it was called Kali only because of Tuhon Gaje's insistence, then that's cool because we all should be calling it Kali because it is the rightful name of the pre Spanish art.
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Robin Padilla
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2004, 06:55:58 PM »

Whoops! Forgot to log in again on that last post. hehe
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Rodger
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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2004, 11:30:25 PM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla
Rodger,

I am not using Yambao's book as evidence to Kali. In fact I have not even read the book but am very happy that Rey Galang has reissued it.

One book I will use as evidence however, is Punong Guro Edgar Sulite's
"Secrets of Arnis"


PG Edgar Sulite, Romeo Macapagal, Tony Diego, Yuli Romo, Ray Galang, and Christopher Ricketts (and also Ray Floro) make up the big names of Kalis Ilustrisimo.  The same persons (except of course for Mr. Sulite, may he rest in peace) were responsible for writing "the Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo".  So, what Mr. Sulite wrote in his older work is now superceded (in research) by the works of his friends and colleagues.  You are relying on an obsolete work, as far as Kali is concerned.  The Ilustrisimo camp has revised their own history as it relates to Kali.  Again, you?re wrong.

Quote
In this book it says Antonio Ilustrisimo is a Kali Master from Cebu and that Kali is the pre-Hispanic martial art. In the whole entire book, this is the only section I recall that mentions Kali.


Antonio Ilustrisimo used Eskrima, not Kali.  Again, I refer you to "the Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo" for this, the newer work concerning Antonio Ilustrisimo's history and art.  Please correct yourself.

Quote
As far as KaliS Ilustrisimo...wasn't that S added only 2 years ago?


The 'S' was added only recently, in light of the strong contentions (such as the ones in this thread) experienced by the old "kali" propaganda.  In short, they too had to change their rhetoric, away from the old "Ancient, Mother art" rhetoric.  Using ?Kalis? (sword) to them was more fitting.

Quote
But if it was called Kali only because of Tuhon Gaje's insistence, then that's cool because we all should be calling it Kali because it is the rightful name of the pre Spanish art.


With the preponderance of evidence against the "Kali is the Mother art" propaganda, to conclude the above is the exact opposite of logical thinking.  In short, you are running out of reasons for claiming Kali as the Mother art.  Your inability to construct--at the very least--a mediocre argument, should now be obvious.

"we all should be calling it Kali because it is the rightful name of the pre Spanish art"... Again, where is your proof to support this claim?  If you read all the way up this thread, you'll see that you have nothing, thus far.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but 'Kali' is not the "rightful name of the pre Spanish art".  If it was you would've had an easier time convincing us.
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2004, 12:34:49 AM »

During the early seventies there was resurgence of Philippine pride and the government under Marcos rule stressed the nationalistic pride. That era was also the same era that Filipinos began using 'Kali' in the context that Robin has written. I still haven't found anything that supports the mention of the term prior to turn of the 1900's.. however I have also mentioned there wasn't ANY term to describe any nationalistic martial art.

Now we can use the word "Barangay" as an example. Many of us here believe that barangay is a term that is Filipino in origin and that tribes used this term to describe their village. It was even a title of a book by William Henry Scott a noted Filipino historian.

However, the same course was taken by this term that I believe the word 'Kali' has taken in it's evolution as something that is Filipino in origin.

In fact, the word Barangay was a politically motivated term instituted by the Marcos regime (Presidential Decree No. 705) that was meant to imply that the Philippine Islands as a WHOLE was integrated or at least shared the same cultural traits BEFORE Spanish arrival. Villages were now instructed to begin using the term, 'barangay'.

Here's the problem... Barangay isn't a word in some of the major tribes' vocabulary.  There is NATIVE term,"barangay" in Northern Luzon; Ilocano use the word, ili to denote village. In Igorot (Buntoc) it is Ba-barey or Ab-abongan. Even Tagalog uses the term, "nayon" for village.

Barangay was a Malayo-Polynesian term that meant boats. It symbolized the arrival of the ancient Malays on the islands via boat. Yet, today the majority of Filipinos adopt the word instead of the SPANISH based terms (ie: barrio) when they want to relate to the time before the Spanish, or to imply nationalistic terminology.

In the anthropological study of the hill people in Northern Luzon collected in the book, CORDILLERA: Diversity in Culture Change (where a majority of the info in this post is culled) a very important observation was made:

"Therefore, it will be more appropriate to say that before the Spanish Era, there were VARIOUS terms to denote local organization in the Philippines and thus, there were VARIOUS types of village organization or local community."

That may be an appropriate comment for the whole discourse on the word Kali as well in the way it fits into the collective which is the Filipino Martial Arts.


<<Will the Igorot recognize Kali as the "Ancient Mother art of the Philippines"? Is this what they call their Art? Tuhon Rafael is from Northern Luzon, maybe he can verify that claim. >>

I'm not a linguist of Northern tribal dialects but the way I see it... tribes do not call their fighting art anything. Tribes describe what we would call their training as "mock fighting" so it is structured (if any structure can be attributed to the learning method) under the studies a young boy learns in their rituals. For example, tribal men learn rituals for headhunting by mock fighting. They set a time and place and take it VERY seriously. All misfortune to the tribe that is unnatural is somehow linked to headhunting. Whether they practice today or not, the rituals are very important to the society. The taking of an enemy head is called 'Chita', they have a term for the attempts to kill with a spear "Mafofongot". The "Chomallong" is the ritual trip where a husband goes into the forest with two other males and they build a straw man (tribal version of practice dummies/). The husband then takes a sharpened stick and uses it to attack the straw man and severs the head. All have a secondary purpose, beyond the arts of war. For example this ritual practice (which we could understandably call a training session) links "the decrease of the outer world (the enemy) to the increase of the inner world in general." Woman had their own rituals which can be described as being martial arts practice as ritual.. such as piercing a gaba tree with a spear with the goal of knocking it over with one blow. A battle cry of triumph during headhunting is called "humipag". The act of running around and attacking people with a spear or sword is called, "chumuhig".

Of interest is the word, UKALI which in Bontok means the customary law of inheritance and adoption. In the unique framework of the Northern tribal system's interpretation of their martial practice, and the system of their warrior rank recognized by the inheritance of ceremonial spears and practical spears, family is defined by these ranking systems and not necessarily through blood relations. One can be adopted into another family. Tribes are broken down as ranks and ranks are recognized by the inherited ceremonial power objects such as weapons and armlets or leglets.

So it all depends on how our western or 'martial arts' mental framework understand how tribal practices differ from how we interpret what is FMA. Indegenous tribes do not call it Arnis or Eskrima either.. nor do they practice or learn the FMA the same way  or even in the same context (in general).

If we think FMA is something you go to pay an instructor, join a club or school and study like any other MA then the answer is "no there's no word or term that is native in origin which relates to FMA".

Yet there can be a strong argument that if we view tribal fighting methods and ranking systems as part of their customary law of inheritance and adoption.. then yes, there is a word that relates and it is UKALI.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Not the PAST but the Future!"
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2004, 12:36:55 AM »

"There is NATIVE term,"barangay" in Northern Luzon; Ilocano use the word, ili to denote village. In Igorot (Buntoc) it is Ba-barey or Ab-abongan. Even Tagalog uses the term, "nayon" for village. "

Correctionj:

"There is NO NATIVE term,"barangay" in Northern Luzon; Ilocano use the word, ili to denote village. In Igorot (Buntoc) it is Ba-barey or Ab-abongan. Even Tagalog uses the term, "nayon" for village.
"

--RK--
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Rodger
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2004, 12:48:45 AM »

Quote from: SUNHELMET

Quote from: Rodger
Will the Igorot recognize Kali as the "Ancient Mother art of the Philippines"? Is this what they call their Art? Tuhon Rafael is from Northern Luzon, maybe he can verify that claim.


I'm not a linguist of Northern tribal dialects but the way I see it... tribes do not call their fighting art anything. Tribes describe what we would call their training as "mock fighting" so it is structured (if any structure can be attributed to the learning method) under the studies a young boy learns in their rituals. For example, tribal men learn rituals for headhunting by mock fighting. They set a time and place and take it VERY seriously. All misfortune to the tribe that is unnatural is somehow linked to headhunting. Whether they practice today or not, the rituals are very important to the society. The taking of an enemy head is called 'Chita', they have a term for the attempts to kill with a spear "Mafofongot". The "Chomallong" is the ritual trip where a husband goes into the forest with two other males and they build a straw man (tribal version of practice dummies/). The husband then takes a sharpened stick and uses it to attack the straw man and severs the head. All have a secondary purpose, beyond the arts of war. For example this ritual practice (which we could understandably call a training session) links "the decrease of the outer world (the enemy) to the increase of the inner world in general." Woman had their own rituals which can be described as being martial arts practice as ritual.. such as piercing a gaba tree with a spear with the goal of knocking it over with one blow. A battle cry of triumph during headhunting is called "humipag". The act of running around and attacking people with a spear or sword is called, "chumuhig".

Of interest is the word, UKALI which in Bontok means the customary law of inheritance and adoption. In the unique framework of the Northern tribal system's interpretation of their martial practice, and the system of their warrior rank recognized by the inheritance of ceremonial spears and practical spears, family is defined by these ranking systems and not necessarily through blood relations. One can be adopted into another family. Tribes are broken down as ranks and ranks are recognized by the inherited ceremonial power objects such as weapons and armlets or leglets.

So it all depends on how our western or 'martial arts' mental framework understand how tribal practices differ from how we interpret what is FMA. Indegenous tribes do not call it Arnis or Eskrima either.. nor do they practice or learn the FMA the same way  or even in the same context (in general).

If we think FMA is something you go to pay an instructor, join a club or school and study like any other MA then the answer is "no there's no word or term that is native in origin which relates to FMA".

Yet there can be a strong argument that if we view tribal fighting methods and ranking systems as part of their customary law of inheritance and adoption.. then yes, there is a word that relates and it is UKALI.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Not the PAST but the Future!"


Thanks, Tuhon Rafael.  I understand, aside from Igorots, there are also a great number of other tribes located in Northern Luzon.  Do they all share this word? (UKALI).  

On a side note, I heard the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) do not even venture in that region.  And the NPA (the New People's Army) always have a hard time convincing the tribes up north of the virtues of Marx's theory.
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Rodger
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2004, 12:59:50 AM »

Quote
"Therefore, it will be more appropriate to say that before the Spanish Era, there were VARIOUS terms to denote local organization in the Philippines and thus, there were VARIOUS types of village organization or local community."


So, in the Visayas, they called their martial arts Eskrima or Pangamot.  The Tagalogs, Arnis and Panantukan.  The Muslims in the South, use Silat or Kuntaw.

Where is Kali used in the Philippines? Which region? For now, Robin Padilla can say there's a word Ukali, that might relate to Kali, in Bontoc province.  But, at this point he should now separate himself from the 1970s Kali propaganda that has infected his worldview of FMA.  There is no such thing as the Mother Art, or 'original' pre-Spanish term.  Do you have anything else to add, Robin Padilla?
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2004, 09:11:46 AM »

And now, just to set EVERYBODY off, here's this from the mailing list, the Eskrima Digest:

==============

http://www.ugo.com/channels/filmtv/features/thechroniclesofriddick/vindiesel.
asp

From a Vin Diesel interview:

Q:  What is your Riddick workout?

VIN: The Riddick workout started before I went up there. I was training with a UFC guy, Ultimate Fighting Championship fighter. I got up there two months early and started training in a fighting style called Kali, which originated in Spain and was then brought to the Philippines by Spanish traders. It's a fighting style that's just now beginning to catch wind. It's a fighting style that calls for ambidextrous, two-handed fighting. And that's what we studied. I went up two months early to learn this fighting style.

Apparently Vin Diesel studied Kali De Leon (see a clip at
http://www.kalideleon.com/techniques.html, on the right
side, labelled "Guro Jun in Kali demo for Vin Diesel", so
he _should_ know better...

- Marko
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2004, 10:11:26 AM »

To be fair to Kali deLeon, in my limited experience with film studios, media coverage and actor interviews... they are not that keen on picking up any historical background on what they are learning for the film. I can definitely picture Diesel getting the facts confused and then who ever is doing the interview also fogging things up.

Unless the studio has someone from the Kali Deleon camp stating the above then we should give them the benefit of the doubt (not implying Crafty isn't, btw). It's happened to us in Sayoc Kali when the HUNTED came out.

It also didn't help when major magazines like Inside Kung Fu refused to accept any articles about Sayoc Kali or the HUNTED because they had "bigger Filipino martial arts names" they could interview or they have more than enough Kali coverage for 'Ecks versus Sever'." Even when we had the actor Benico Del Toro involved in the interview and Sayoc Kali was a regular advertiser in their mags - the editor at IKF wasn't aware of who we were.

So it's an uphill battle.

As per uphill battle..
<<On a side note, I heard the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) do not even venture in that region. And the NPA (the New People's Army) always have a hard time convincing the tribes up north of the virtues of Marx's theory.>>

During the Spanish occupation, the Spanish attempted around 64 expeditions into that region and were repelled each time. At one point, Spain sent in a special unit headed by a conquistador who had a reputation around that time and he was wounded and sent back several times as well.

As far as I can tell the term UKALI is used by several tribes, but as in all things Filipino... I would not bet against a probababilty that a difference in opinion on exactly what the term means to each specific individual or tribe...heh. Again, I don't want to say they use it in the same way the general MA public use terms like Karate or Arnis. It has deeper cultural roots which transcend the outside world's definition of MA. Neither do I want to fuel the "Arnis is the sanitized Kali" angle. I just believe it doesn't lead to anything productive.

--Rafael--
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Rodger
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2004, 10:37:54 AM »

Quote from: www.kalideleon.com
To learn more about the true essence of the Arts, Guro Jun continued to train under the best instructors. In addition to Grandmaster Ticsay, He has studied with GM Rosendo de Leon, Danny Marfal, Eliseo Javelosa and Ernesto Presas. Moreover, he received training from GM Manning Recto, a fighter whose notoriety is widely known for defeating Moses Padilla, the reigning stick-fighting champion of Hinirigan, Negros Occidental, Philippines. Maning Recto is considered a living legend to those who witnessed the match. Guro Jun has also trained with Guro Dan Inosanto and Tuhon Leo Gaje.


The last sentence is your 'Kali' connection.  But, in their website you also have this:

Quote
Led by Guro Jun de Leon, a practitioner of traditional Filipino Martial Art specializing in Arnis de Mano over 35 years, Kali de Leon has provided quality instruction and training for many martial artists of various diciplines.


So, he also uses Arnis de Mano.  The virtues of commercialism.
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Robin Padilla
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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2004, 02:38:46 AM »

Quote
But, at this point he should now separate himself from the 1970s Kali propaganda that has infected his worldview of FMA. There is no such thing as the Mother Art, or 'original' pre-Spanish term. Do you have anything else to add, Robin Padilla?Rodger


Here's what else I would like to add Rodger.

You must liberate yourself from the Spanish Colonial Propaganda of denying the name Kali. Calling the arts Arnis, Arnes, Eskrima is fine. But if you are going dismiss 'KALI' as nothing more the 1970's propaganda, then you should also reocgnize the name Arnis as 1600's propaganda as well.

Here is an excerpt from Punong Guro Edgar Sulite's book
Secrets of Arnis. You may call it 'obsolete'. I call it Out of Print.

"Through the passage of time, this unique fighting art, though called by other names like escrima (for skrimish) or Kali (presumably from the Indonesian fencing word tjakalele) eventually was named Arnis. HIstorically it was a derivation from the word "arnes", colorful trappings on defensive armours used in Moro Moro plays. Moro Moro plays were staged then as socio-religious plays depicting the victory of Christian Spaniards over the Muslims. The play was a blunt reminder or a propaganda primarily used by the Spaniards in their promotion of Christainity in the country"

"Arnis actually was a misnomer but it eventually became the recognized name of this fighting art......the fighting art became known as Arnis De Mano and varied references are still there. Depending upon one's dialect:
Panandata (Tagaolg); kalirongan (Pangasinan); didja or kabaroan (Ilokano); pagkali-kali (Ibanga) siniwali (Pampanga); kaliradman or pagaradman (Visaya) etc.  Of course its other famous names like eskrima, kali, estoque, estokada are still there and preferred by old masters. "

That's a lot of Kali!

Let it be known. Kali is the mother art and is just as valid as Arnes or Eskrima.

Kali is like many people from the Islands...There was a time when the people had names like Lapu Lapu, Soliman, and Kudarat but now we have names like Alfredo Garcia, Ferdinand Legazpi and Speedy Gonzales just as Kali has become known as Arnis.
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Rodger
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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2004, 03:07:23 AM »

Quote from: Robin Padilla

But if you are going dismiss 'KALI' as nothing more the 1970's propaganda, then you should also reocgnize the name Arnis as 1600's propaganda as well.


What's the Arnis propaganda consist of exactly? Because there is none.  No one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient Mother Art".  It's just something the Tagalogs have come to name their art.  No propaganda involved.

Quote

"Through the passage of time, this unique fighting art, though called by other names like escrima (for skrimish) or Kali (presumably from the Indonesian fencing word tjakalele) eventually was named Arnis.


So, now Kali is Indonesian? Do you even know what "tjakelele" is in Indonesian? Or where exactly this is in Indonesia? Can you answer this for us? I am waiting for you to say 'Kali' is the Hindu goddess of war as well.

As for Edgar Sulite's work on history, you need to ask yourself where he got his information.  And why his colleagues in Kalis Ilustrisimo are now changing their take on 'Kali' and why they've abandoned it completely.  You should have more sufficient information to draw on following the release of Rey Galang and Romeo Macapagal's book.


Quote
Let it be known. Kali is the mother art and is just as valid as Arnes or Eskrima.


Even the people here in Dog Brothers and Sayoc Kali, both who use the title 'Kali' have ceased to use that slogan.  Please read Tuhon Rafael's posts again, regarding the "mother art" propaganda.
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2004, 04:02:06 AM »

Out of curiosity, I looked beyond the island borders and tried to find any root words for ukali.

Interesting results:
From the Kamusi Project Swahili - English Dictionary.
Kali is the adjective of the word, Ukali.

Check out some of the various usages of this word and how their meaning reflect much of what KALI (as we know it) is all about. The various meanings are probably based on intent and tone.

UKALI is a noun meaning:  fierceness, (kali adj), strength, bravery, cruelty, daring, fury, harshness, intensity (ukali wa jua)

Ukali is also used to describe sharpness (of a knife etc.).  

In contrast, the Tarokoid language of Nigeria, ukali means: Medicine
 
Ukali is also found in the Hawaiian dictionary to mean: Following
In ancient Hawaiian sea faring sagas, their astronomy (Ka 'oihana kilokilo) mentions the planet Mercury as Ukali, because it was the Sun follower. However, although an ancient Polynesian word, I found no link to the martial art.

Tibetan meaning for Ukali: Upward, gradient

Now it is interesting that these are languages which pre date the printing press. They are also from tribal sources. I would like to state that these are just fragments of research which do not add or lessen the dialogue but are presented merely for interest.

There's the whole link of Sanskrit, arguably the oldest language as one of the root languages of Pre-Hispanic Filipinos, many ancient Filipino terms involving weaponry and battle are Sanskrit, but that's been covered in previous threads, and as stated above the Hindu Goddess of Destruction angle tends to deteriorate the dialogue.

The Igorots were NOT using Sanskrit terms for their weapons so that link doesn't apply here.


--Rafael--
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SUNHELMET
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« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2004, 04:14:50 AM »

<<Kali is like many people from the Islands...There was a time when the people had names like Lapu Lapu, Soliman, and Kudarat but now we have names like Alfredo Garcia, Ferdinand Legazpi and Speedy Gonzales just as Kali has become known as Arnis.>>

Well SOME of us have both our Spanish and tribal names!

Smiley
--Rafael Kayanan--
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Robin Padilla
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« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2004, 05:40:53 AM »

Rodger,

Quote
What's the Arnis propaganda consist of exactly? Because there is none. No one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient Mother Art". It's just something the Tagalogs have come to name their art. No propaganda involved.

The term Arnis came as a result of Spanish Propaganda. Please read my post regarding this matter again. Arnis is definitelt not a Tagalog word. And true, no one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient mother art". That is wrong. They know the right way is that Kali is the ancient mother art.




Quote
So, now Kali is Indonesian? Do you even know what "tjakelele" is in Indonesian? Or where exactly this is in Indonesia? Can you answer this for us? I am waiting for you to say 'Kali' is the Hindu goddess of war as well.

Yes. The inhabitants of Luzon, Visaya, and Mindanao are primarily from Indonesia. Naturally Kali's roots are Indonesian.  

If you are waiting for me to say Kali is the Hindu Goddess of war as well, I will not because that is a different Kali. That Kali is the one you see in New Age Yoga Studios.

As far as "The Secrets of Kalis" Ilustrisimo book is concerned. I've read it. I read it the very day it came out in 2002. I do not recall the book mentioning anything about them calling it KaliS Ilustrisimo as a result of the topic we are discussing. Also, they changed the name to Kalis Ilustrisimo after Tatang had died. I am also inclined to believe the change to Kalis from Kali has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.

Tuhon Rafael, the information you researched regarding Ukali is very interesting. Ukali and kali are very popular words used by many different ethnic tribes.

Well SOME of us have both our Spanish and tribal names!

Yes! And I sincerely hope we preserve the name of Kali just as we preserve those tribal names. Harmony among names for the arts is very possible. We just have to accept that Kali is the mother art.
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Robin Padilla
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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2004, 05:42:52 AM »

Sorry for screwing up the quotes in that previous post. Im still learning how to use this forum.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2004, 07:03:28 AM »

Woof All:

BEGIN

"Even the people here in Dog Brothers and Sayoc Kali, both who use the title 'Kali' have ceased to use that slogan. Please read Tuhon Rafael's posts again, regarding the "mother art" propaganda."

END

I'll leave it to Tuhon Raf's capable hands to speak for Sayoc, but concerning us this statement is not correct.  We have NEVER used the NAME Kali in connection with assertions of mother art.

Concerning Indonesian origins of the term (or was it the Indonesian origins of the Art?) GM Largusa of Villabrille Kali asserts this in his appearance in our video "The Grandfathers Speak".

What do the scholars out there (this certainly excludes me) have to say about PG Sulite's words quoted above?  As a student of his I always found him to be thoughtful and precise with his words as well as his Art.

Woof,
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Anonymous
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« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2004, 11:05:58 AM »

According to the Sayocs it was a line that did not originate with them but had heard the line used from a variety of older well know ARNIS instructors that came FROM the Philippines. Some still live there. Some do NOT use the word KALI but did use the "Kali is the Mother Art" perspective. Perhaps some of the Sayocs have used that line before twenty years ago but today the focus is about the future. We try to stay away from this particular fire because there's lots of drybrush around and all it does is burn everyone.

Therefore, in Sayoc Kali we've pretty much left it open to interpretation since our contention is that the art of SURVIVAL came from the "Blood of the Nation", our ancestors so no single term is going to encompass the whole thing. We'd change "Sayoc Kali" in a heartbeat if it no longer applied.

Tuhon Chris Sayoc, Sr. has always stressed that the 'martial arts' envelops everything we do and don't do. It is about survival of any situation. When you drive you are doing Sayoc training, when you speak, when you listen, when you take lessons from others, when you teach.. no matter what you do... think of how it relates to your survival, how it feeds your being. That is the blood of the nation because that is how they survived. It's one lesson that is repeated often in our history. It also relates to how the tribes like the Igorots do not have a name of some martial art, all part of survival and living.. it's what they do.

--Rafael--
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Rodger
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« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2004, 12:18:14 PM »

Quote
Arnis is definitelt not a Tagalog word. And true, no one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient mother art". That is wrong. They know the right way is that Kali is the ancient mother art.


No one ever said Arnis was Tagalog, just that Tagalogs have come to use this term.

As far as the last sentence, you still haven't answered four basic questions we're asking, so that claim has no meat:

1. What region in the Philippines is Kali used and practiced?

2. Which tribe, or language group practices Kali?

3. If you can answer 1 and 2, does this group or groups use the title Kali to mean the original art?

4. What is a the practioner of Kali called?

Just four questions.  And no they are not in Mr. Sulite's book.
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Rodger
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« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2004, 12:23:18 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog


I'll leave it to Tuhon Raf's capable hands to speak for Sayoc, but concerning us this statement is not correct.  We have NEVER used the NAME Kali in connection with assertions of mother art.


Sorry, about that Guro Crafty... What I meant was that Dog Brothers got the term from two individuals, namely Dan Inosanto, who got it from Largusa and Villabrille, and also, GT Leo Gaje.  And they're the ones who assert the 'mother art' rhetoric.  This same rhetoric has lead to Robin Padilla's brain.
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Rodger
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« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2004, 12:40:14 PM »

Quote from: SUN HELMET
Therefore, in Sayoc Kali we've pretty much left it open to interpretation since our contention is that the art of SURVIVAL came from the "Blood of the Nation", our ancestors so no single term is going to encompass the whole thing.


A most reasonable stance.  If you think about it, Filipinos are pretty open to new terms, and made up terms.  No one will contend the use of this term KALI, if people just say, 'this is the name of our art' or 'we practice Kali, period'.  But, when people go around saying things like "Kali is the ancient mother art", "Filipinos have called their fighting arts Kali since time began", or that "Arnis and Eskrima are the 'sanitized' versions of Kali", then more than likely people will react.  

They'll throw out simple questions like the ones above.  And people like Robin Padilla will have no choice, but to do a little tap dance.
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Rodgera
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« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2004, 12:48:13 PM »

On another note... Mr. Rey Galang's book about Yambao is now available on their site: www.bakbakan.com  

And the updated version of Mr. Sulite's "Master of Arnis, Kali, and Eskrima", renamed "Warrior Arts of the Philippines" will be available this October.

and here's a little piece of trivia about Mr. Sulite's old work: Edgar Sulite is from Leyte, he is Bisaya.  The two teachers he credits for his art (LAMECO) are Caballero of Eskrima de Campo and Antonio Ilustrisimo.  Both are from Cebu, both are Bisaya, both used Eskrima.  Of the 40 (it's been awhile since I read the book) or so Masters featured in the book, guess how many are Bisaya and how many use Eskrima?

Makes one wonder where Mr. Edgar Sulite got wind of the whole 'Kali' usage and why he switch to this?

But, the two books should be a good read.
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