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Author Topic: effectiveness  (Read 6098 times)
fighter
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« on: August 26, 2004, 04:56:09 PM »

Could someone please explain the discrepency of effective combat with no armor and minimal serious injury. either dog brothers combat systems work which creates injuries in contests without protective gear or they do not have the potential of creating injuries. In any effective combat art the use of protective equipment is mandatory to prevent death, correct? "if you not crushing a three weapons mask you aint hittin hard enough"


humble fighter
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c
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2004, 07:00:11 PM »

i like what your getting at a lot.iv had my former teacher look at a pic in a magizine and right away say thats fake, his arm would be broken.i think it was mostly true but i saw at the last gathering some  arm shots that did not break any bones.i guess this shows just how much we can really take.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2004, 08:36:24 PM »

Fighter:

Please forgive me, but would you please take a stab at rephrasing your question?  Your meaning is not entirely clear to me.

TIA,
Crafty Dog
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Fighter
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2004, 02:53:25 PM »

It has been my experience in the past that effective combat techniques can not be used at full contact without serious protective gear
(Some will argue that the skill of the fighter to pull the punch at the critical moment prevents the injuries.anyone who has been in even a minor altercation  will tell you that it is not possible.) . The typical broken bone was the ulna and the clavical  with the occasional tib and fib. If you do not have these bones covered by rigid material and you are not routinely breaking them I would have to question the amount of force you are generating. Three weapons masks are open in the back with the top three vert. exposed, these are primary targets for immediate fight resolution.
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bart
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2004, 07:10:41 PM »

I think they're hitting plenty hard. Thinking along Newtonian lines, it's good to keep in mind that the objects hitting and being hit are not "at rest". Sometimes that can add to the strike's power, but mostly it means that you get a lot of glancing blows etc. instead of solid hits because the people you're fighting are trying hard to NOT get hit. They are also jamming the strikes and cutting lines so as to do "damage control".

I also think that people are not out to kill each other at the Gathering, but rather to learn and grow as fighters and people. Head shots might get pulled, or they might be working on developing other skills and so not take them. There's also the idea that a lot of fighters come to work on their groundfighting and not their striking.

As for the 3 weapon mask and striking the back of the head, realistically, waiver or no, there's a good chance that if you kill somebody that you will go to jail much less be eternally emotionally scarred. So strikes to the brain stem might not get so much floor time as say strikes to the limbs and trunk. Plus few people are going to give you the back of their head to hit and even fewer people know how to hit the back of the head with power while presented with the front.

My thoughts.
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Be Cool

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Capital Doce Pares
www.capitaldocepares.com
fighter
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2004, 07:37:07 PM »

The face to face blow to back of the head is a rising flat rap and one of the first blows we work in training. I agree with you 100 percent you will goto jail under involuntary man, waiver or no. The bones I mentioned were what we have broken, granted most of our injuries are sprained ankles but we learned as far back as 84 that once you exceed 1" in your stick the ulna if not covered breaks immediately the clavicals are mostly accidents of stick orientation.
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fighter
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2004, 07:40:53 PM »

Oh yea the three weapons mask. we use modified lacrosse helmets with overlapping plates on the trachea and vertibrae you can also use street hockey helms if you change the way the face grill attaches
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Guest
Guest
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2004, 08:31:22 PM »

I actually had the same question. If it's possible to spar full contact without serious injury,  it makes me question the effectiveness of the stick in a real fight.
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carlo
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2004, 11:28:03 AM »

There are a few contributing factors to the level of injury manifested at the gathering.  One is skill level, some of the fighters have become quite adept at not getting hit in vulnerable places.  This is an instance not of shots being pulled but rather shots being effectively defended.

  Also, not everyone walking in is skilled enough to generate enough power under duress with proper body mechanics at a moving and alive target to cause the injuries you mention.  Another factor is relative distance as mentioned before, a man crashing in on you will smother a strike.  If the other man is clearly a better stickfighter, don't let him swing.  The nature of the sticks themselves help mitigate injury, they are rattan not bahi or kamagong.  The physicality of the participants is another factor, skull thickness (TrueDog, i'm looking at you:D),  and sheer size and strength can protect you.  Hitting a 300+ pound man in the arm with a rattan stick will not stop him.  

One of the most important factors is intent, it is in the nature of the event that we walk in there as friends.  We push as hard as we can.  Not hard enough and we are not transformed, too hard and we incpacitate our friend and prevent him from being able to fight by our side when the time comes.  Full contact, yes but it is understood that a full power strike to the back of the head can kill a man.  He is your friend.  Don't take that shot.

Your ability to make moral decisions in a high adrenal state is one of the most important transformational experiences you get out of the gathering.

All that being said, the participants actually do get  a fair bit of injuries.  Broken hands and concussions,  and a collarbone here and there.

Some cry,"this is not real fighting".  Save wrath for your enemies, when playing with friends and brothers, there have to be some limits.  On the other hand, no  one hits you as hard as your brother.  I've never faced anyone on the street as tough as the guys I've "played" with.

-C
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-Attila the Hun
sting
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2004, 02:34:12 PM »

>iv had my former teacher look at a pic in a magizine and right away say >thats fake, his arm would be broken

Most magazine pictures are posed pictures because magazines sell on visual appeal and need a high quality photo to demonstrate a concept.
I don't know which photo you were referring to, but any photo is a moment in time.  

As for real injuries, there are athletic weapons practitioners that fight
at the Gatherings.   I'll keep this short.  Most people think they can do more damage than they can actually deliver.  Drawing on more common experiences, there are tons of guys that can twirl sticks beautifully, hit heavy bags monstrously yet are unable to deliver a knockout blow in one or more rounds of fighting.  Why?  Because it's difficult to land a great shot on an opponent that is trying to do the same to you while effectively defending himself.  One is a greater warrior in fantasy.

I can post several video clips of what happens when someone receives an elbow shot with a rattan stick.  Usually, nothing. Sometimes, it's numbing.  Rarely, a bone chips.  I have original video footage of all of these cases.  Though, it is considerable work to edit video footage.  Someday ...

As Marc Denny has written many times, the Gathering is a test of your abilities.  There are a lot of talkers and few fighters.  If you believe that you are that effective, show up at a Gathering and fight.  At the Summer 2002 Gathering, I saw Master Max Pallen fight at age 61.   What's your excuse ?
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
3rd Degree Black Belt Instructor

Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
Gentlemen's Fighting Club
Anonymous
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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2004, 04:28:03 PM »

"At the Summer 2002 Gathering, I saw Master Max Pallen fight at age 61. What's your excuse ?"

Excuse? I have no excuse. I have a reason. And the reason I do not participate at the gathering is simply because I am too lethal. You are welcome to even consider that I am too deadly and refuse to kill any opponent in an event such as the DB Gathering.
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bart
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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2004, 05:09:44 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous
"At the Summer 2002 Gathering, I saw Master Max Pallen fight at age 61. What's your excuse ?"

Excuse? I have no excuse. I have a reason. And the reason I do not participate at the gathering is simply because I am too lethal. You are welcome to even consider that I am too deadly and refuse to kill any opponent in an event such as the DB Gathering.


What kind of stick-fighting do you do? I am not questioning your "lethal-ness". I'm just curious what other styles do full contact stick fighting whether with gear or without.
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Be Cool

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Capital Doce Pares
www.capitaldocepares.com
Anonymous
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2004, 05:17:00 PM »

There are plenty of anonymous Internet guys out there that are just too darn lethal to fight or spar.   What's your name? Do you have website for
your martial arts activities?
I'll be at the November 2004 Gathering.  My name is Gints Klimanis.
I am not so darn lethal that I can't fight at a Gathering.  I'll be happy to
survive a few fights.

Is it within your abilities to just finish
your match in under fifteen seconds rather than kill your opponent ?
I suppose if you kill everyone you fight with, including your
training partners, then you should just watch .
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pretty_kitty
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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2004, 05:25:24 PM »

This thread reminds me of something...

http://www.luniticfringe.net/~blade/contents/rlvi.wmv
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Cindy "Pretty Kitty" Denny.
Dog Brothers, Inc.
Grandmaster aka GUEST
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2004, 06:04:59 PM »

Gints,

You can call me Grandmaster. I do not have a website. If I did, people would steal my techniques and they are too deadly for the public.

I will not be attending the November 2004 gathering because of time and travel. But if I were to attend the gathering I still would not fight because I am too lethal and do not want people to steal my moves.

My techniques disable my opponents in less than one second. I do not kill my training partners. Practicing my moves on anyone would result in their death so I do not practice or spar with anyone.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2004, 07:01:46 PM »

grandmaster,
   you must be a ninja,right?ninjas have the best martial arts outfits ever.
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Grandmaster aka GUEST
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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2004, 01:01:07 AM »

Guest,

I am no longer a ninja. But I was a ninja during the mid 80's. At present I am one the deadliest all around martial artists in America. If I were a dogbrother I would be known as Deadliest (of all) Dog
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Anonymous
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2004, 02:16:04 AM »

Or perhaps "Road Kill"?
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Grandmaster aka GUEST
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2004, 04:43:58 AM »

Road Kill? Uhhh....NO
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SB_Mig
Guest
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2004, 10:16:22 AM »

"I am no longer a ninja. But I was a ninja during the mid 80's. At present I am one the deadliest all around martial artists in America. If I were a dogbrother I would be known as Deadliest (of all) Dog"

I haven't laughed this hard reading a thread in a while. Only on the internet can a 15 year old elicit so many responses.

Thanks guys!
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fighter
Guest
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2004, 12:46:19 PM »

I totally apologize for the thread of egos Ive created. My apologies to you personnaly crafty dog . My intent was to go to a gathering with a half dozen 2 inch rattan sticks and was just wondering if anybody would be offended or would even participate if I asked them to wear better helmets and at a minimum short rib and kidney protectors(I have extra), so I could play too!  With the egos gettin buggered from simple questions of generated force Im not sure that is possible.Once again I apologize crafty(actually we have met at a gathering.)  

Sincerly
humble fighter
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2004, 12:57:50 PM »

HF:

No worries!  I have been meaning to make a substantive post on this thread because amongst the tangents some interesting points have been raised by you and others but to do so would take a stretch of time that I do not have at the moment.

For the moment I will say that we do have a tradition of pretty much allowing anything that someone is willing to go against, so your 2" sticks (A half dozen?  Are you an octopus?) no inherent problem that I can see.  We can discuss this more.

Again, no worries.

Crafty
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fighter
Guest
eff
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2004, 01:18:27 PM »

You funny guy!
no Im not an octopus. But I figured if I was gonna fight with mine (not standard and I would not fight with an advantage)I would bring some for all. My mom always made me give my friends popsicles when I went outside with one. Like I said in the last email I would try to bring a couple of helmets  as well. I figured if I showed up I might get lucky and somebody would go with me But I use bigger sticks and and a sturdier helmet is necesary as well as short rib protection. I just want to have fun and share technique and lifes experiences. I would take an injury before I would intentionally give one. Tell pretty kitty that movie was great.

sincerely
Tony
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zinja
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« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2004, 03:12:55 PM »

R.I.F.T. is something I came up with back in the early 90's when I was the leader of a special operations response team.  We carried ASP tactical batons and during one of the raids against a cell full of guys who had taped shanks into their hands, I ended up breaking one of the guy's ulnar and tibia with the ASP.
It didn't take much effort.
But it came on the tail end of three years of subjecting ourselves to eight hours of full-contact training with sticks and knives on every thursday.  Tuesdays were spent on empty-hand techniques and grappling.
What we did in on the SORT was we used riot helmets with the neck protector in the rear, redman rib and kidney protectors, shin and forearm pads as used by football players, knee and elbow pads and the user's choice of hand protection ranging from simple padded gloves to hockey like gloves.
The sticks we used were pvc with foam insulate padding and the ends covered to prevent cutting.
The matches we're formatted very similiar to the Gathering matches from what I've seen on the tapes.
We fought three minute rounds and due to the fact that our weapon of use was the ASP during raids, we focused on maintaining distance and effectiveness of the baton rather than transitioning to grappling.  Like I said, we did eight hours of that on Tuesdays anyway.
We never broke each other's bones and only occassionally suffered any head injuries - though, even with the light sticks we were using and even though we were using riot helmets - some would occur - but no concussions of any kind.
I'm currently in my 31st year of weapons training and practice and can testify that without this equipment we would have seriously hurt each other.  
I use to spar at the Kali academy down in Kissimmee Fla where Master Leo T. Gaje Jr. used to visit - back in 85'
So we were using all of his and my cumulative years of experience swinging nunchakus and sticks - in our jail sparring sessions and training.
The one question you have to ask yourself when you're working in that environment is this:
Is it worth me needlessly subjecting myself to injury to the point of time off from work when tomorrow, there might be a riot which threatens the lives of my team buddies?
No.
So that's why we trained the way we did.
There is incredible merit in what you guys are doing at the Gatherings.
I can tell just by what I've seen.
But most professionals cannot risk the time off from their real job to risk the sustainment of injury from such an event.
With advance in systhetic armors the way they are going it won't be long at all before there exist extremely light-weight pieces of gear which will allow complete ranges of movement, yet won't bog you down a bit.
Until then the choice and question which you must asks is can you afford the inherent risks associated with the level of fighting you want to experience.
Our three year experience at the jail, on Thursdays, proved invaluable.
None of our guys ever got injured in over 54 altercations ranging from forced movements to full-fledged riots.
The one thing they never did, because we were so well-equipped and padded, was learn to hold back - in that life and death game you don't Want to learn that.  So even though we practiced all-around head strikes with the riot helmets - they never had to be use them.
The most force we ever had to use was an occasional broken arm or leg.
Hopefully this has been of help to you.
I'm an advocate of the school of hard-knocks but also want to see my guys on the next raid.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2004, 08:07:54 PM »

Woof Zinja:

Your post resonates of many conversations I have had with my good friend Dogzilla, who as many of you may know, is a federal prison guard. His duties including running the kitchen (ex-USMarine chef with the motto of "Death from Within!") and cell extraction and similar duties.

Dogzilla would often come to class with questions that were "different". (e.g. "How would you fight a naked, very muscular 250lb man covered with soap who had a razor blade clenched between his teeth?")  I learned to answer "What happened at work today Mike?"  Some of the best learning I have had in my martial path was triggered by questions and conversations with him.

Mike too was concerned about going in to work after a Gathering.  Something as simple as a hearty shot to the thumb meant that operating keys was difficult for him.  Your point in this regard is appreciated and shared.

Although we seem to have a goodly following amongst prison guards wink and prison guards tend to have sufficient experience in the adrenal state  wink I think the bulk of our fighters are men who appreciate having a place to morally air it out in the adrenal state-- especially in the context of "No judges, no referees, no trophies , , , one rule only, be friends at the end of the day".

Concerning your point about intent on maintaining the range of the ASP:

1) Although many of our people enjoy working on closing technically I would like to point out that we do have plenty of people enter a fight with the mission of presenting the close as well, and, forgive me the advertisement, this too is part of DBMA

2) Any thing you would care to share from your experience in this regard?

In closing, I would express the thought people usually do not pause to imagine or appreciate what it takes to spend one's working day in the presence of darkness, and handling it from a place of light, and then going home to one's family as a sane person.   My humble thanks for what you do so that the rest of us do not have to face it.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
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zinja
Guest
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2004, 07:12:39 AM »

Thanks Crafty,
In a riot or forced-movement situation, the perp usually hasn't been frisked and it is to great advantage and safety to regard that person as armed, even if he doesn't present visually.
Oftentimes, after a take-down, we'd find razors and shanks on these individuals hidden in the strangest places and in the strangest ways.  One three-hundred pounder had a shank hidden in the folds of his Michellin Tire layers of flab!
Had we close with him too early he may well have gotten the chance to use it.  Fortunately by tiring him out in the recreation yard and keeping him at bay, we finally exhausted him to the point where we didn't even have to ask him to lie prone face down - he fell down out of exhaustion and the help of a few well place peronial strikes which did what intended without breaking bones.
So, if we could afford the luxury of not closing we'd use it.
But we did train to close.
There are those situations dictated by proximity and confines which negates movement and striking.
Fortunately for us we did practice grappling like I said, all day on Tuesdays, and - also fortunately, none of these actual situations presented a hidden weapon - thank God.
But, the threat was always there.
Have many many stories to share and will as time permits.
Talk at ya later.
Zinja
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