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Author Topic: Real contact stickfighting, injuries and recovery  (Read 8941 times)
So fresh and So clean
Guest
« on: September 14, 2004, 05:31:55 PM »

Howdy,
What kinds of injuries have y'all gotten from either your training or from "real contact" stickfighting an' how long did it take to heal and what was your method of recovery? Also do you still feel the effects your injury(or injuries) today? Thanks, I'm interested about participated in a gathering but leery of some of the aftermaths, I'm sure you can relate.
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2004, 12:31:13 PM »

Quote from: So fresh and So clean
Howdy,
What kinds of injuries have y'all gotten from either your training or from "real contact" stickfighting an' how long did it take to heal and what was your method of recovery? Also do you still feel the effects your injury(or injuries) today? Thanks, I'm interested about participated in a gathering but leery of some of the aftermaths, I'm sure you can relate.


Most notably hand injuries.  I have broken the bones on the top of the hand and both pinky fingers.  The top of the hand was from shots from my opponent and the pinky fingers were from going into clench with sticks.  I have yet to have any other serious injuries but I am sure others will share their battle wounds in the thread as time goes on.

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
so fresh so clean
Guest
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2004, 07:48:13 PM »

What was your method of recovery and how long till you were back in the game?
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2004, 08:01:45 PM »

If I can recall the top of my hand took close to two months before I was holding a stick again and the pinky(s) were taped and holding a stick the next week.  Unfortunately there is not much you can do for hand injuries.  It left plenty of time to work on the other hand and its ability level.  

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Anonymous
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2004, 02:10:11 PM »

O I forgot to mention one.  I hit my own funny bone several months ago and it was the second worst pain I have ever felt.  I have had my leg slashed open while skateboarding, head injuries, bones broken and the only thing that was comparable to this was the first worst pain I have ever felt which was a migraine I went into the hospital for.  The day after I hit it my arm was still numb and tingly.  Good times. . . .

Gruhn
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thai70
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2004, 03:12:27 PM »

Ryan,
How long before you were 100%.  My cast came off early (don't know how it came off doc, it just slid off rolleyes ), and it is still broken.  I wear a brace on it so it is still imobile.
Say are you Steve Gruhn's son.  I sent you an Email.
tom
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Anonymous
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2004, 03:33:29 PM »

Quote from: thai70
Ryan,
How long before you were 100%.  My cast came off early (don't know how it came off doc, it just slid off rolleyes ), and it is still broken.  I wear a brace on it so it is still imobile.
Say are you Steve Gruhn's son.  I sent you an Email.
tom


What did you break?  I am in no way a doctor but I assume the recovery time will be different depending on what was broken.

Gruhn
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thai70
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2004, 05:17:14 PM »

I broke the 4th metatarsel (sp?) close to the wrist, right at the nub.  The doc said it is doing great, but it is just not healed yet.  He checked it at 5 weeks from the injury and i have another appointment next which will make 7weeks from injury.
For rehab I bought a squeezy ball and have a produce rubberband.  I can't use my kettlebells yet, at least not the heavy one till I get more range of motion.
tom
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2004, 09:32:33 PM »

Quote from: thai70
I broke the 4th metatarsel (sp?) close to the wrist, right at the nub.  The doc said it is doing great, but it is just not healed yet.  He checked it at 5 weeks from the injury and i have another appointment next which will make 7weeks from injury.
For rehab I bought a squeezy ball and have a produce rubberband.  I can't use my kettlebells yet, at least not the heavy one till I get more range of motion.
tom


Another great tool for recovery is a "gripmaster" used for guitar playing.  Here is a link: http://www.gripmaster.com.au/index1.htm

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Guard Dog
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2004, 09:33:19 PM »

Sorry for the extra post but I just thought of this one too:

http://onlinemall.devdepot.com/MusicalInstrument/product--206415-General_Accessories.htm

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2004, 12:30:10 AM »

I'm familiar with the Gripmaster from my days as a musician wannabe, but the second one is the first I've seen combining flexion and extension.  Very clever.

Years ago Guro Inosanto showed me encircling a "crane's beak" with with a rubber band and spreading the fingers rapidly many times until exhaustion.  GREAT exercise! It often cures mysterious elbow pains which are actually caused by pain at the origin of the underused extensor muscles of the fingers.
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2005, 10:57:17 AM »

Crafty,
  I found another exercise tool that I think would be a huge asset to not only strength and rehabilitation but also training clench work.

http://ringside.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=RGT&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=1

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2005, 12:56:24 PM »

I've noodled with these in the store, but was not that impressed.
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2005, 01:15:21 PM »

Quote from: Crafty_Dog
I've noodled with these in the store, but was not that impressed.


Really?
  I thought the ones I tried were great.

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Guard Dog
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2008, 10:30:58 AM »

In regards to trachia injuries, I had mine crushed pretty bad in a BJJ tournament when I was just starting to do BJJ.  The guy took my back and got the RNC but I kept on peeling his hand off so he went to the Dan Severn.  I felt my trachia touch the back of my neck if that makes sense and the result has been an annoying click when I swallow ever since it happened.
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2008, 10:33:15 AM »

What is the Dan Severn?
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2008, 10:45:22 AM »

By the man himself:



It is a modified RNC where you pull the hand either via a "C" grip or "Clap" grip to pull the choke in closer to the opponents neck.
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
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Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
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Kaju Dog
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2008, 01:43:23 PM »

In my recolection, I believe we had 3 broken ulnas (pinky side of arm), one popped elbow capsule, one broken hand, a traumatised trachea (please get checked), many a prison detainee has died from the aftermath swelling from such trauma...   My left knee was popped out again (I just wanted to make sure I was not having surgery today for nothing) LOL...
Oh and Steve's torn hamstring (my best guesstimate of the injury at the time). 


Well gotta run.  Going under the knife, less than an hour before my pre-op checkin.

I'll have plenty of down time to chat more once home in the morning.  They are keeping me over night. 

For those that I saw and helped, please post more about your injuries and the causes when possible. 

Great job everyone. 

C-KD / OUT-   

I have received a couple emails that will be responded to in a few days.

Thanks everyone for everything... 

PS
Lots of cheese grater cuts and a few head lumps.  Everyone that I saw, left with a greater IQ from the experience.

 afro
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2008, 02:25:52 PM »

Dean,
  You are an asset.
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
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Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
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Kaju Dog
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2008, 02:37:09 PM »

Dean,
  You are an asset.

It's truely my honor and pleasure to be of service to both the Tribe and Country.

Here's some pics of my knee as of today:

It's gonna be a long road back.  No fighting for a year per Doc's orders...    angry cry 

Im going to focus on making the best of this situation and work on my upper body strengths while I rebuild and strengthen my weaknesses.







 undecided shocked

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Guide Dog
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2008, 06:03:42 PM »

Quote
Dean,
  You are an asset.

I second that.
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Dr. Bryan Stoops, Ed.D.
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Savate/Wing Chun/grappling
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arkangel
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2008, 08:57:13 PM »

Ok, posting details as requested.

the cause was Mr C- Howling Dog applying  respiratory choke across the windpipe which i resisted.  As he was gentlemanly and applied force as needed he increased the pressure.

i was fine at the time, my voice was hoarse but i was yelling pretty loudly and i was not surprised.

that night i lay down and as i swallowed there was some discomfort and a clicking sound, like a shotgun click click.

it was gone in the morning, however my voice is still shot, and the outside of my throat is sore. i am unable to yell or raise my voice.

i havent been to the doctor and probably will not as i am pretty busy with work right now and if i was going to die, it probably would have happened by now.

Dean I hope your leg is better quick, funny how you only grow hair on the one leg, convenient for the operation eh?

Ryan, i think i met your grand dad, nice fellow, good handshake.
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Growling Dog
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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2008, 09:10:43 PM »

speedy recovery dean.
wow arkangel must be hard not raising your voice  tongue
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those who do not listen learn through feeling
foxmarten
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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2008, 10:57:04 PM »

I remember watching that front stick choke with some concern...glad to hear that arkangel is doing better though a trip to the ENT and an xray may still be in order.  ER docs have always been leery of blunt laryngeal trauma, and for good reason...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=1407123&pageindex=1

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=1518062&pageindex=1

I looked into the literature and didn't find any martial arts specific cases, but this football case is similar...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16558234

I was wondering if this choke might be something that participants would want to agree not to use, in the same vein as the groin kick and the eye gouge.  A friendly submission attempt allows the recipient to throw in the towel due to pain before real damage is done.  My fear is that even in a well controlled setting the cartilage and the hyoid bone may be too fragile in some individuals and fracture prematurely.  Throw in a bucking recipient, or one that cannot release his opponents stick in order to tap and the situation becomes more dangerous.  This choke might be too effective for use in a tribal setting.

I'm glad Dean is on hand in case things get sketchy...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18427086







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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2008, 10:08:07 AM »

"I was wondering if this choke might be something that participants would want to agree not to use, in the same vein as the groin kick and the eye gouge."

Groin kicks are out?!?  This will be news to some of us  cheesy 

Anyway, certainly the application of the technique here was quite calm and measured. 

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Kaju Dog
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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2008, 02:41:34 PM »

"I was wondering if this choke might be something that participants would want to agree not to use, in the same vein as the groin kick and the eye gouge."

Groin kicks are out?!?  This will be news to some of us  cheesy 

Anyway, certainly the application of the technique here was quite calm and measured. 



With respect to all fighters and DB's.  I would NOT like to see ANY "Rules" implemented at any time.  Crafty does a supurb job of expressing you are responsible for you.  I have yet to engage with a Warrior, with the heart to get on the floor and fight, that did not act with Honor
(Not to mention that IMHO, if someone did fight without honor and took the cheap shot...  Well, lets just say, "Kharma is a Bitch". wink

I WAS WATCHING VERY CLOSE while this choke was applied.  Yes, I had some concern, but also repsected the right of the defender to TAP at any time he felt the need, Guro Crafty has years of experience and I put my trust in that as well.  In addition the application WAS done with control.



One suggestion that I do have for future Gatherings;

All fighters should come directly to my medical area as they exit the fight area. Regardless of whether they feel they need to or not[/b].

* I can perform a full "Rapid Assesment" in an average of 30 sec's.   

A lot less time than it takes to wait in line to fight again... 



PS
At the same time, if I was receiving the choke, I would have hoped to have had the sense to go ahead and tap.  I tell my guys, "Tap Early & Often".

During this exchange, we must acknowledge that restraint was being applied and that is enough to "Tap".   Get up, hug, then get back in line and avoid making the same mistake again.

Pride is a MOFO.  Remember, the only undefeated ones out there, are the ones that dont fight at all. 

You are all Winners for just stepping up and stress testing YOURSELF.

With much respect,
C-Kaju Dog

The future is looking great...  I look forward to watching my youngans engage in this right of passage.  And they will  wink
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Howling Dog
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2008, 03:06:59 PM »

Woof Thank you Guro Crafty and C-Kaju Dog for your support......
 With all the posting on this, I confess to have been feeling a sense of wrong doing of late.
(Never my intention, I never take the mat wanting to hurt someone)

I agree with Kaju -Dog in not wanting to see rules and restrictioins implemented. I like the 1 rule of "onley you are responsible for you" Of course as always "Friends at the end of the day!"

I truly did apply slow constant pressure, and do again admit I was surprised that Phil was able to fight off the tap as long as he did. (I was fully expecting a quick tap)

My hope is for Phil to have a quick and full recovery from any injurys sustained. He is definetly a game fighter....... (much respect )
                                                 C- Howling Dog
                                                           
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Howling Dog
califkali
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2008, 08:44:35 PM »

http://www1.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=223749458/a=140632431_140632431/t_=140632431                                                                                First time trying to post a pic, hope it works. Some nice bruises from Sunday.   Craig
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drammel
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2008, 11:22:57 AM »

Ouch.......

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califkali
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2008, 11:11:27 PM »

Dean. Hope you have a speedy recovery. Opinions please on what to use for bruises/joint pain. Any dit da jow users? I have had ok success with arnica ointment.         Craig
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Kaju Dog
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2008, 01:11:40 AM »

Dean. Hope you have a speedy recovery. Opinions please on what to use for bruises/joint pain. Any dit da jow users? I have had ok success with arnica ointment.         Craig

Thank you Sir

Im a lover of various Jow remedies.  Most take a while to produce unless you go for some of the premade stuff, like the Iron Palm Dit Da Jow. 

Im going to let a cat out of the bag here... 

A fast and ready to use Jow formula:  1 part Epsom Salt & 3 parts Christians Brothers Brandy.   Topical use only, stir occasionally and keep out of direct sunlight. 

Draws out the bruises and tightens the skin to help reduce swelling. 

From my Corpsman brain,  Vitamin "M" Motrin and tylonal   LOL

 cool
Heres a very reliable TCM source: 


FOUR WINDS HEALTH CENTER  520-544-4838
 
 
1637 E Prince Rd
Tucson, AZ 85719 




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JeffP
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2008, 05:46:44 PM »

With all the posting on this, I confess to have been feeling a sense of wrong doing of late. (Never my intention, I never take the mat wanting to hurt someone)

I truly did apply slow constant pressure, and do again admit I was surprised that Phil was able to fight off the tap as long as he did. (I was fully expecting a quick tap)

I'll bet that everyone watching that match would agree that you were as restrained as possible in the application of that choke; please don't feel badly.  I know that at the time I was very impressed with the gradual increase in application of your weight to the choke; I saw at least three discrete changes of weight application and remember thinking "very well done".  I'm sure Phil would say the same thing.. if he could talk  grin
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peregrine
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« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2008, 01:10:03 AM »

being from Hawaii
pineapple juice afro
and of course ibuprofen.

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arkangel
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« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2008, 11:56:16 PM »

holy smokes, been busy with work and the world kept on moving, wot a surprise.

on the choke, my voice is better now, thanks rene for caring :\

Tom, you were very restrained and very gentlemanly, would fight and train with you any time and be pretty darn confident in your skills and your control. it was a good  great choke and the only reason i could hold so long was because of the care you took to apply. someone with less experience and respect could have done it sooner and messed me up too.

Tom, if there was any wrongdoing it was me, you were very careful, very cautious and very respectful, i have absolutely NO HARD FEELINGS, none at all.
To be honest with you, after watching you in action, i can truly see the walk as a warrior all you days philosophy now. I have been worrying about getting older, you have a couple of years on me. seeing  you go at it boss has made me rethink a lot of what i figured was possible. i feel a little more hopeful about my "physical" future now. thanks for that.

To be truly honest, the worst injury i received that sunday was from my last fight when someone from the audience chucked the knife across the floor to al who two handed it at the bottom of my upper rib cage. i was told it was from someone who wasn't fighting, a friend or something.
i know, i know, prepare to defend yourself at all times.

i wonder if we may see a day when audience participation costs someone dearly. maybe not. i hope not.

anyway i probably should have gone to the doctor but worst case scenario it was some cracked ribs.

i would agree with dean, i think peeps should maybe hit the medic on their way out, not my call though.

i would also agree with the three distinct phases of the choke, i can see all three of them still, good eye jeff.

i wake up screaming in the night, my wife keeps asking who is tom, she thinks i am having an affair. kidding. seriously.

anyway, i am spending too much time on the confuser now, trying to keep my priorities in order.

If any of you make it up here before the blizzards, the wild moose and the savage beavers make it impoosible to travel during winter, would love to train with you guys and go get some eats.

~phil
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