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Author Topic: June Gathering photos...  (Read 5393 times)
pretty_kitty
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« on: July 10, 2005, 02:30:14 PM »

The first round of Gathering photos are in the photo gallery.  More to come next week!

http://dogbrothers.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album19
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Cindy "Pretty Kitty" Denny.
Dog Brothers, Inc.
sting
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2005, 03:37:17 AM »

Thanks to Ally Yang for the photos.  She never thought she'd end up taking photos of a bunch of guys that think hitting each other with sticks is fun.  Now, she knows that she's supposed to collect "wound" photos.

Anyway, I'd like to comment on downloading the photos.  The first photo that appears is a 640x480 downsized version of Ally's submitted photos.If you want a clearer version, click on the photo again for a roughly 821x547 photo that is much sharper.  Right click on the photo and save.
If the name contains the word "sized", then you have the lower resolution photo.

Gints
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
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Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
Gentlemen's Fighting Club
Tom Stillman
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2005, 04:51:17 PM »

After seeing pictures of the bloody nature of this type of sparring (And personal experiance) maybe blood testing should be required for fighters.  Maybe I'm just being paranoid.  Iduno.
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2005, 05:19:15 PM »

Woof Tom:

Apart from the fact that we tend not to attract high risk group members,  wink the fights usually stop when blood makes an appearance-- for the obvious reasons.  The seemingly gory shot seen here was done through the fencing mask by a stick shot.  We stopped the fight when we saw the blood through the fencing mask and as best as I can tell the opponent had absolutely zero exposure to the blood.  The blood you see here is after the man had moved to the sidelines and the blood had a chance to accumulate.  It is worth noting that the recipient was not at all stunned, but the nature of scalp cuts is that sometimes a lot of blood comes out.

Woof
Crafty Dog

BTW, I think it fair to call what we do "fighting" and not "sparring"-- JMHO
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pretty_kitty
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2005, 06:12:36 PM »

Quote
Thanks to Ally Yang for the photos.


It should be noted that except for the first few group photos all the photos currently in the gallery were shot by Ally and made web-ready in PhotoShop by Gints.  I've received a bunch more but they need to be worked over in PhotoShop.  Shooting photography at R1 is always a challenge due to poor lighting.  Ally and Gints spent a lot of time working on this set and we really appreciate it!

A SPECIAL THANKS to ALLY and GINTS!

 cheesy
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Cindy "Pretty Kitty" Denny.
Dog Brothers, Inc.
Tom Stillman
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2005, 06:19:11 PM »

Crafty,   I would have to agree. I also believe this to be a low risk group and the presence of the mask would tend to reduce blood spatter. I also have much faith in ring masters (you and others) abilities to sence danger in the ring and being a good safety net for the fighters. Also: Poor choice of words on my part. I think the word sparring does not qualify in describing this type of "FIGHTING". I stand corrected.  Sincerely your friend and follower.   Tom Stillman
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
sting
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2005, 08:20:04 PM »

Ally took a number of photos of that fight, though only a few were posted to the June 2005 Gallery.  

For each of these photos, click once to enlarge the photo.  Click again
for another enlargement and a clearer photo.

In #135 of 174, DBJune2005_6443.jpg, I see what appears to be blood
on the left side of the helmet.

In #137 of 174 DBJune2005_6460.jpg  You can see the blood spurting out of the helmet at this point, after the punch to the face mask (previous picture).

Dog Gints
(thanks for the cool title, Marc !)
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
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Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
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TBONE
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2005, 12:25:35 PM »

Greetings all,
Great photos of The Gathering, respect to all who participated. A have a couple of questions that I hope those of you who have experience can shed light on.
1. I see that there are quite a bit of knife on knife match ups. I really applaud the exploration of this arena. How does a typical fight play out as far as "scoring" goes? It can be fairly esoteric to spar with a training blade unless some element of realism is added (I.E. chalk/ink, etc.) or is it more of an acknowledgement of success from the individual competitors?
2. It seems that grappling is a major component of the stickfights, which is a real world scenario IMHO, but what about the knife match ups? It would seem that to grapple without first disarming your opponent would be suicidal due to the lack of needed leverage to employ an edged weapon effectively even from a position where little or no body leverage can be generated.
3. Lastly, are there any plans to release any material regarding edged weapon work? I understand that there are, of course, many similarities to stick work, but the differences are fairly pronounced as well.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
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Tom Stillman
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2005, 12:54:03 PM »

I am not seeing the blood or spatter in the photos mentioned. I only see shadows and grainy areas of photos. Original prints are much clearer I'm shure. Is it possible you are seeing the chips in the paint on the bay door back dropping the photo. By the way, I did some research and found that the only blood testing done in profesional sports is done on a voluntary basis except for pro boxing and even then it is only" REQUIRED" in the state of nevada. Other states do not require testing. Even after the stunning news of Magic Johnson's aquiring AIDS he was still alowed to play as you may remember. The rules have changed in pro basketball since then. Now if a player is found to have AIDS he is not alowed to play. Still after all that, testing in pro basketball is done on a voluntary basis and is not required.  Just some food for thought.   Tom stillman
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
Tom Stillman
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2005, 04:35:33 PM »

TBONE,   It has been a while since I have fought at a "DB" gathering but basicly (back then) knife fighting was used as a warm up exercise before a day of stickfighting, and although it  does attract some serious knife fighters the main focus was on stick, staff and other alike weapons. As to why we don't see much grappling with the knife probably is the nature of the weapon.(if you treat it with the respect it deserves). It would be easy to crash in and grapple with practice weapons but against a real knife is a different story. I like to get in and deliver my shot and get out as quick as possible without getting hit myself and would only grapple when absolutely necessary or if a great opportunity to dissarm presented itself. In a real knife fight I would utilize my inviorment. Chairs bricks sticks and the like can turn the tables of a knifefight or any fight for that matter.  As far as your question about scoring at a "DB" gathering, I don't think it is going to happen anytime in the near future. Read the rules(for lack of a better term) Soyoc Kali seems to be the prefered knife system among many of the dogbrothers but not the rule as there are none except "Be friends at the end of the day. I hope this answers some of your questions. P.S. I am not the most qualified person to answer these questions but took it upon myself to do so just in case no one else does. I do believe this info. to be accurate. ALSO: I work with a group that utilizes STUN GUN technology to add a little more consiquence to knife sparring. The long handle ones that resemble a short stick work best.  Take care,  Tom
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
TBONE
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2005, 04:48:55 PM »

Tom,
Thanks for the reply. I absolutely agree that grappling with a knife might be nuts! It seems as though a "healthy respect" for the reality of edged weapons would have to be the driving force of even a match-up where death was unlikely, in order to capture the realism of the "fight" IE: an honor system where each fighter would acknowledge clean shots. I actually like the "rules" as they are, it keeps things more interesting.
Interesting use of the STUN GUN, I haven't heard of that before...cool.
I would love to attend a gathering, I am a little more versed with the edged weapons than the batons though. What you call a warm up would be my super-bowl!!
Thanks for sharing.
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sting
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2005, 06:33:35 PM »

Tom,

Are you checking out photo 137 (of 174)  in the enlarged version ?
On the unenlarged version, I can't see the spatter, either.  Though,
the spatter is definitely there.  I have the original photos, so it's
easier for me to identify the spatter, which is definitely not marks on the
rolling door wall behind the competitors.  

Cool !

Dog Gints
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
3rd Degree Black Belt Instructor

Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
Gentlemen's Fighting Club
sting
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2005, 06:50:18 PM »

>1. I see that there are quite a bit of knife on knife match ups. I really >applaud the exploration of this arena. How does a typical fight play out >as far as "scoring" goes? It can be fairly esoteric to spar with a training >blade unless some element of realism is added (I.E. chalk/ink, etc.) or >is it more of an acknowledgement of success from the individual >competitors?

Yes, this is a tough issue.  I think you have to spar often enough to find yourself a place between knife boxing (using Marc's term) and knife waving (what I call persistent circling, "waiting" for an opening while looking cool with flowing knife patterns).  The former seems quite silly, but in the heat of the sparring, this happens all of the time.   The latter is just as silly because you don't spend a lot of time developing the reflexes
for delivering your shots.  

I think that sparring is a training tool for fighting, so one should experiment and push to learn what a body can do.  If you do it often enough, you should know which of your cuts rocked your opponent, and which of his cuts rocked you.

The prevalence of knife boxing
also leads me to believe that a real situation will be the same because,
for some reason, a knife just doesn't completely register as a weapon.
Such is not the case for a stick of respectable length.  Dogs, schooled or not, seem to have a similar reaction.  Perhaps this explains why knife
encounters are so dangerous, besides the fact that knife wounds can be
nasty.

As for chalk/ink, I dunno.  An ink mark will register, but such marking rewards edge over tip touches and trains for those shots that ink the best.  I think that using an aluminum blade with thin garden gloves is more useful.   After taking a few shots on the hand, you'll be avoiding such hits, which would probably lop off a few fingers with a real knife.

Later,

Dog Gints
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
3rd Degree Black Belt Instructor

Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
Gentlemen's Fighting Club
TBONE
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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2005, 02:17:32 PM »

Dog Gints;
Thanks for the response, very insightful. I like the part about "knife boxing". You may be correct about the primal respect of a big assed stick!
I have actually been involved in a real life situation or two and I can say that things happen really fast and you might not even see the blade until you realize you have been cut...pretty frightening actually.
As far as aluminum blades and thin gloves go, you have a point. Even getting dinged with a blunt edge registers if no padding is involved. That's what I respect most about you guys: A willingness to let it all hang out in order to walk a road less traveled. "Higher Consciousness Through Harder Contact". F@#*ing brilliant!
All the best.
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Tom Stillman
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2005, 06:51:32 PM »

Quote from: sting
Tom,

Are you checking out photo 137 (of 174)  in the enlarged version ?
On the unenlarged version, I can't see the spatter, either.  Though,
the spatter is definitely there.  I have the original photos, so it's
easier for me to identify the spatter, which is definitely not marks on the
rolling door wall behind the competitors.  

Cool !

Dog Gints
 My monitor has not been very clear lately. I guess it is time to get a new one. After looking at other photos and comparing the same area on the door (back ground) I see and am convinced that indeed this must be blood splatter. I did not doubt you, I just had a hard time seeing it clearly on my soon to be replaced monitor. P.S. Thanks for the assist Pretty Kitty.   Tom
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
sting
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2005, 07:35:54 PM »

>I have actually been involved in a real life situation or two and I can say >that things happen really fast and you might not even see the blade until >you realize you have been cut...pretty frightening actually.

TBone,

If you're willing to share your stories, I would love to hear them.  I collect accounts of knife encounters,  though I do not have any of my own.
Your words are valuable, especially the part about not seeing the knife.  I find this to match up with my opinion on knife fighting in that fast hand motions and a small weapon area inhibit the recognition of actual danger.  

When the motions are restricted, such as in constrained sport fencing, the problem is more manageable.  In 2003, I did some knife sparring with some members of a fencing team.  They were definitely
better at thrusting to the face, and I lost many eyes, though it took them a bit to adapt to
circular footwork, slashes, low-line kicks, and attacks to the hand.  One fellow was disturbed that his fencing mask was bashed in by my palm butt,
which ended the match abruptly.  Shucks.

Dog Gints
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Baltic Dog

Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo (Prof. Richard Lewis)
3rd Degree Black Belt Instructor

Bono JKD/Kajukenbo (Prof. John Bono)
Gentlemen's Fighting Club
TBONE
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2005, 11:15:59 PM »

Dog Gints,

Ineresting anecdotes about the fencing experience. I tried a bit of that, but like you found the lack of lateral movement unnatural. A cardinal sin in almost any fighting sport is backing up straight, and you have no choice there. Be mindful of the riposte though eh?!
I would gladly share whatever I can about my own experiences with real knife encounters. I hope that no one ever has to experience what I have.  Let me preface by saying that I don't claim to be an expert in any fashion, just a lucky (or unlucky depending on your point of view) bastard that survived. It did, however foster in me a life long desire to learn and develop in this area, and have a pretty critical eye towards a lot of so-called "knife fighting experts". I do, however, try and learn from everyone.
I am actually in the Fresno, CA area, so we are almost neighbors. Shoot me an e-mail at tshook@sierraambulance.org whenever you like.
Thanks again for sharing your insight.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2005, 01:01:09 PM »

I've taken "sticky" off of this one, so now it will be moving on the forum according to when people post on it.
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Tom Stillman
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2005, 01:00:06 PM »

Quote from: sting
>I have actually been involved in a real life situation or two and I can say >that things happen really fast and you might not even see the blade until >you realize you have been cut...pretty frightening actually.


I have experianced a few real knife fights in my time and I can tell you things happen deathly quick. One time we were playing pool and a fight broke out right next to me. I saw the whole thing or at least I thought I did, except for the goose down (jacket) feathers floating around. It did not take long to figure out there was a knife involved. I never did see the knife but I saw the bloody mess it left behind. Another knife fight I wittnessed, the guy fended off the knife wielding man with a stick he found on the ground. I was involved in a fight were a knife was involved back in junior high school. Ah yes those were the good old days when kids from "Compton" were bussed in to the San Fernando valley with all us white boys. That was my first incounter with crips and bloods. I must say it was educational. If I could, I would shoot the stupid f**k that came up with that briliant idea.   Tom
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
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