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Author Topic: fighting without any protection  (Read 4248 times)
Moritz
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« on: July 14, 2005, 10:16:44 AM »

In the first DB series Top Dog says that the use of hand protection and head protection allow fighters to do things they would not be able to do without.
Has there been any research since then if and how a lack of any protection affects the nature of a fight? I know that the Sayocs have a DVD with footage of fights without any protection, but I haven't seen it yet.
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2005, 03:07:48 PM »

I have not done much fighting at all with minimal protection but I?ll give this question a shot.  I think it depends on what you consider protection.  The first generation masks and batting gloves are extremely close to no protection.  While they do offer protection against as Guro Crafty states in the first series of RCSF tapes against facial deformities such as getting a lip ripped off, they still don?t offer much.  The new fencing masks are a lot better and can protect rather well.  I think because of this any fights done with batting gloves and a first generation mask are good examples of what ?no? protection might bring.  


Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
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Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Tom Stillman
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2005, 05:45:58 PM »

It is a good idea to wear some kind of a tough glove when fighting against an opponent wearing a fencing mask. A tough glove,batting gloves, ski gloves and the like do not offer much if any protection against sticks impact, but it will protect your hand from being cheese grated by the fencing mask.  JMHO    Tom
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
Guard Dog
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2005, 09:05:19 PM »

I'm with ya Tom,
  My shoulders are usually what gets the most of the mesh printed look  Cool I think it is from the clench and grappling.  I can't stand the feeling of skining my knuckles.

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Dog Pound
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2005, 01:22:05 AM »

For me, the Gathering fights are tests.  I think the gloves are a skill level thing.  The guys that wear those thin little gloves have all my respect.  As a stick fighter, I am just not there yet.

At my skill level, I don't wear much padding, but I do wear lacrosse gloves.  It registers when I take a shot to the hand, but I don't risk losing weeks of training from a broken hand.
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I don't know how many of them it would have taken to whip my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use. That's a handy little piece of information.
- Ron White

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Guard Dog
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2005, 01:45:43 AM »

Corey,
  Let me assure you that I am in the same place.  I wear the street hockey gloves which are a little smaller than the lacrosse gloves when fighting with rattan sticks.  We also have a stick that is inbetween a SMAK-STIK/Action-Flex and a real rattan stick.  The sting, but don't hurt so when using them I only wear batting gloves.
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
Guro / DBMAA Business Director
Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
VTach
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2005, 11:37:18 PM »

I would say that fighting without any protection is the fast track to not walking as a warrior for all of your days. I think there should be more padding, like armor for the knees.
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When my opponent expands, I contract. When my opponent contracts, I expand, and when there is an opportunity, I do not hit, the hit comes... all by itself. - Bruce Lee
sean_brandt
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2005, 10:38:16 AM »

It should go without saying that fighting with protection is different than fighting without protection.  Please notice I said "different", and didn't place a value judgment on it.  They each have their utility.

Here's my short answer: in my experience, whatever area I have protected, then I'm not as worried about that area as if it weren't protected.  Consequently, my priorities are different, and I fight differently.  Also, I can get more training time in with protection; likewise, I can get more realistic training without protection.  Again, both have their place.

Allow me to offer up 2 examples:

(1) When grappling: sometimes I wear a cup, mouthpiece, and headgear.  When I remove this protection, it changes my game.  It's not a complete change, but I do make some subtle changes.  I do my straight armbars differently so as not to crush my testicles with the guy's arm.  When I don't wear a mouthpiece, I have to defend a crossface sooner.  And without headgear, my ears get folded over and might swell up -- until I remember how to protect them again.  

So when I train for a competition that will allow such protection, I will wear it.  I might as well, since it protects me, and consequently is an advantage.  For competition, I want to have all the advantages.  However, for realism, I usually remove that protection since I'll probably never have on the street (unless leaving jiu-jitsu, for instance Cool).  In the real world, I want the advantage of having trained as realistically as possible for that encounter.

(2) When stickfighting: sometimes I spar with gear, sometimes I use padded sticks, and I have fought without hand or head protection.  Padded sticks are fun, and can be a good training tool as long as when I'm training, I am "honest" with myself about when I'm getting hit or if I can take certain kinds of shots.  Likewise, training with protection has its place.  I can train more, which is important, and yes, it's extremely realistic, just as the UFC is realistic.  However, the UFC is a contest with limits and 2 oz gloves, and in the real world, I want to be prepared for when there are no limits.  Punches might play less of a role without gloves.  

Nevertheless, it's not quite the same as fighting without protection, which was intense, and brought me to a new level.  It changed my life.  And that's what I'm looking for out of my training -- expanding my horizons, pushing my limits, making me achieve and do things I never thought possible.  I have found that the mind limits the body more than the body limits the body.

Of course, the risk of fighting without protection is higher.  When I stick fought without armor, I got thrust in the cheek, and immediately realized I needed to protect my face better.  So I grabbed the stick.  If I had a mask on, my priorities might have been different.  It might hurt, but the self-preservation instinct of protecting my face kicked in.  I also knew I didn't want to take any hand shots, which I could probably survive with gloves.


Let me add this: I love NHB/MMA and stickfighting.  I think this kind of fighting really develops people, helps them grow, which I believe is one of the DBMA goals.  So, if fighting without hand and head protection helps you grow, that's great.  If you're not interested, that's cool too.  We're all hopefully just training to grow, get better, learn, and be part of a great brotherhood.

So, I hope you find this helpful.  I'm sure other people can comment on this as well.  I have the utmost respect for the Dog Brothers, which is why I joined this forum: to expand my horizons, and discuss FMA and stickfighting with people I have something in common with.  After all, there aren't too many people in our society fighting each other with sticks!   Smiley

Gumagalang,
-Sean Brandt
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"You can't be afraid of the unknown and expect to progress."  (Top Dog, DBMA RCS #6)

www.sayoc.com, www.bajji.com
Dog Pound
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2005, 05:10:53 PM »

sean
Quote
whatever area I have protected, then I'm not as worried about

True, but hard hits will come through a fencing mask and good gloves.  I'll never forget the June 2003 Gathering when a guy was knocked out with a shot to the mask.  I can be enlightened and wear a little protection.

At the last WEKAF world cup, there was a guy who would turn his face into the strike because the metal grill on the WEKAF mask would send a shock waves back through the stick and fatigue his opponent's hand.
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I don't know how many of them it would have taken to whip my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use. That's a handy little piece of information.
- Ron White

http://ironpunk.blogspot.com/
sean_brandt
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2005, 12:21:16 PM »

Hi Guro/Dog Corey,

I'm really glad you replied and I saw your signature, because I was in church yesterday, and I one point I wondered how many other people at mass had even heard of stickfighting...

You said:
Quote
I can be enlightened and wear a little protection.

and gave some good examples of how, even with a mask, serious damage can result.

I hope that one can even be enlightened without getting hit at all!  Smiley  Getting KO'd by a shot to the head is definitely not my favorite cup of tea.  

Nevertheless, I'll still contest that fighting without protection changes the game.  IMHO, any alteration of the rules changes the game.  I played checkers with my cousin last month, and she didn't play with "required jumps", so I had to change my strategy.  Same game, but if I were to enter the World Checkers Cup, I'd want experience playing by the official rules.  And in the extremely unlikely event that I'll ever fight someone with a stick in "real life", fighting without protection changed my life and taught me some valuable lessons that I might otherwise never have learned.  Indeed, I had to learn them "the hard way".

When I fought without protection, there are 2 things I noticed about my defense:

1) I didn't get hit in the hand, because I knew the effects could render me stick-less.  Fortunately I had learned this lesson some years before when staff sparring.

2) I don't think I got hit in the head (except for that thrust to the cheek) without my arms covering my head.  So my arms took the impact.  That first thrust changed my life.  I don't know if I would have that same instinct/cover if I had been wearing a mask.  Yes, it hurts if you get while wearing a mask.  I'm sure against a powerful opponent you could even get a concussion.  And I remember seeing a DBMA clip where a guy got a cut on his forehead from a shot that went through the mask.  Still, the mask protects "the $10,000 area" (a term a BJJ teacher of mine once called the face), which means if I'm wearing a mask, I am not thinking about protecting my face in a way that I would if I weren't wearing the mask.

In either case, I'd still rather not get hit in the head!

Gumagalang,
-Sean Brandt
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"You can't be afraid of the unknown and expect to progress."  (Top Dog, DBMA RCS #6)

www.sayoc.com, www.bajji.com
Dog Pound
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2005, 01:48:06 PM »

sean_brandt

When you opened with
Quote
Hi Guro/Dog Corey
it looks like you are addressing me as Guro, and although I hope to be worthy of that title someday, at this point Dog Corey is the only title I will go by.

Quote
I'm sure against a powerful opponent you could even get a concussion.
I remember Crafty admonishing us at one Gathering to guard our heads better because there were seven(?) concussions (through masks) at the prior Gathering.

Quote
how many other people at mass had even heard of stickfighting
I have found several devout Christians who are Martialists.  In fact, I am trying to contact a Pastor that I heard does some Japanese stick fighting.
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I don't know how many of them it would have taken to whip my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use. That's a handy little piece of information.
- Ron White

http://ironpunk.blogspot.com/
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2005, 07:12:22 PM »

http://dogbrothers.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album19&id=DBJune2005_6491
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sean_brandt
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2005, 08:18:21 AM »

That photo is quite telling!  Egads.

Dog Corey, sorry for the mistake in addressing you.  I am not too familiar with the DBMA ranking/salutation, so I was just trying to be respectful.

Gumagalang,
-Sean Brandt
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"You can't be afraid of the unknown and expect to progress."  (Top Dog, DBMA RCS #6)

www.sayoc.com, www.bajji.com
iloilo44
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2005, 10:15:27 PM »

Hello fellow martial artists,

Has any fighter offered to fight anyone with no armor in any of the DB gatherings?  If so, what was the outcome?  Would the council of Elders approve of it? Would there be any legal paperwork involve between the fighters if either would get killed?

Peace,

Glenn
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