Stabbing with a Knife and Blade retraction

[bludhall]

What is the general opinion here on the effects of sticking a knife into a body.
I have heard that there can be somegripping of the knife from suction or proximity to bones. Does anyone have any insight into this issue.

I am wondering specifically in relation to the heaven or earth grip used for stabbing.

[buzwardo]

This topic was discussed at length a couple years back on the Eskrima Digest. You can search back issues by keyword at the following URL:

http://www.martialartsresource.com/filipino/filframe.htm

My take on this is that a lot of the rumors you hear about suction and such are akin to urban legends. I worked a lot of years as a chef; whenever some large chunk of meat needed to be taken apart I'd do a lot of the preliminary work with one fighting knife or the other. Never really encountered one of these problems.

Some would doubtless argue that a large chunk of dead cow doesn't compare well to a living human. Even if so, I'd argue good technique would prove effective regardless of medium. Perhaps if you were trying to withdraw a blade along the same axis of original thrust one of these difficulties could occur. But if you have a good reason to stick a blade into something in the first place, then you have a good reason to maximize the amount of damage done by the thrust.

In my kitchen experiments one of the best techniques I found once an initial thrust was made involved a snapping turn of the wrist--like quickly turning a doorknob--while throwing the elbow into the body and raising the arm in an uppercut-like motion. This resulted in a "U" shaped cut; I have a hard time believing a knife could remain grasped by suction or otherwise hung up after such a move.

For various reasons most blade oriented training spends a lot of time teaching students how to get a blade to target, but very little time working on what comes next. In real world encounters, however, I'd argue the latter point is the more important.

[xtremekali]

Woof,

When I hear questions like this I often wonder why you would like to know?

Anyway in my experince with knives and the damage they can inflict. The human body is a amazing organizm. When punctured it tries to seal the wound, which could cause the blade to be trapped.

Myke Willis

[TBONE]

FWIW "suction" is pretty much a myth. Even incising tissue with a scalpel causes blood vessels to contract, and tissue (skin & muscle) to open up. If you were to puncture a membranous body cavity (peritoneum, thoracic, etc.) I suppose there is always a chance of a seal, but it would be easy to break lose. If you were to imbed you blade into bone, you might have it momentarily stuck, but there again the force of the impact would likely cause tthe blade to deflect off of the bone in another direction. You would be highly surprised at the remarkable ease with which a quality blade could be inserted and withdrawn, I'm afraid to say.

[ryangruhn]

I remember back in the day with my Sifu learning the shoulder check which evolved out of the sword being inserted into the body and having to pull it back out with the body staying stationary.  Then again, we were talk of a long blade, not short.

Gruhn

[xtremekali]

Tbone,

May I ask how many people you have stabbed?

Myke Willis

[TBONE]

xtremekali,
Valid question, in light of my post. I plea the fifth.
I have been a street paramedic for 12 years. I have seen, first hand, the effects of blade work on other people.
I have seen a lot of crazy s@#$ on the streets in my time.
I'm not bragging, but I do know WTF I'm talking about.
Regards.

[xtremekali]

Woof T-bone,

I guess all those sucking chest wounds I saw in combat is a myth also

My background is in combat and knife instruction. And have used a knife once or twice in my line of work. But I don't mean to brag.

Myke

[TBONE]

Woof Xtremekali!

A sucking chest wound is just nature's way of telling you to slow down a little
I posted a while back on the subject, but I have been in a few knife encounters myself. I don't know if it qualifies as combat or not, but having a 240 pound dude whacked out on PCP trying to turn me into ground meat was pretty real.
I have been cut more than once and lived to tell about it, so I either did something right or am a lucky bastard...I'll take it and say "thanks" either way!
Thanks for doing what you do and sharing.

[peregrine]

In my kitchen experiments one of the best techniques I found once an initial thrust was made involved a snapping turn of the wrist--like quickly turning a doorknob--while throwing the elbow into the body and raising the arm in an uppercut-like motion. This resulted in a "U" shaped cut; I have a hard time believing a knife could remain grasped by suction or otherwise hung up after such a move.

interesting. thanks.

[Tony Torre]

Back in the 90's I heard several second hand accounts of succesful pig hunts with knives.  Apparently the Bowie knives they used went in and out quite smoothly.  

According to an exhibit on cannabalism I saw at the Rippleys believe it or not museum in Canada, pig meat is very similar to human meat.('')

Another issue worth looking into is the effects of slashes.  During a conversation with a forensic doctor I learned of tension lines on human skin.  When cut perpendicularly will the skin tear open quite easily.

The whole suction thing I believe is a marketting gimick to sell more knives with blood grooves.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com      

[TomFurman]

Tony, email Raf Kayanan at Tuazon@aol.com. He has some insight from various "sources".

--Tom