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Author Topic: Die Less Often: Interface of Gun, Knife and Emtpy Hand  (Read 26721 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: May 26, 2006, 07:38:44 PM »

New clip is up!
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pau
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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2006, 07:53:20 PM »

inpresive stuff  shocked  so the all expected knife video i comin then i guess  cheesy
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guau desde mex ^^

woof from mex ^^
xtremekali
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« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 10:08:08 PM »

Guro C.,

Put me down for a copy when it comes out.

Myke Willis
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For those who fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know
sting
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2006, 01:09:18 AM »

I liked the "Interface" video.   The Imelda Marcos attack footage and wound footage really enhanced the delivery of the knife training instruction.  Excellent job !

Gints
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Baltic Dog

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pretty_kitty
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2006, 01:23:26 PM »

Taking pre-orders now:

http://dogbrothers.com/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=118
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Cindy "Pretty Kitty" Denny.
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2006, 03:07:00 PM »

Impressive vid clip.  It's been said before, but this material is very dark and sobering.
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Sitbatan
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2006, 09:12:53 AM »

Hello, I'm new to this forum, but always have been a DBMA fan!!  I teach FMA / Self-defense here in the Philippines and I constantly refer to the DBMA to help promote the FMA amongst the Filipinos here.

From what I saw on the clip... it looks very nice and well-organised.  I am very proud of the DBMA in their pursuit for absolute perfection in Martial Arts.

I actually endorse the DBMA amongst other FMA forums and I open alot of discussions among other FMA practioners here in PI with "you better keep pushing yourselves in FMA or you'll be left in the dust".

Thanks to organizations like the DBMA, who have vision and Balls to do it... FMA is now worldwide.  

I salute you.

One thing I want to say...please do not take offense, but I am a Filipino Muslim and when I saw the "Enlarged Photo of Suarez t-shirt and the picture of the muslim with bullet holes in him..."  I felt uneasy and I think it would be wise to remove that photo, since I won't be the only muslim reading your site.  I took the photo with a grain of salt but felt upset since you are supposed to be practioners of Silat.  HOw could you do or think that way of us muslims???  Have we not been nice enough to share our art with you???

I don't know.... I actually feel embarassed because the muslims that have taught you Silat haven't shown you enough positive Islam to influence you to never think of us that way.

O well just had to tell you...please don't take it the wrong way.  DBMA is still the best FMA there in the States.... please don't teach to hate my people... we are not your enemy.
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War is Deception.
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2006, 11:29:01 AM »

Woof Sibatan:

Thank you for your candid, courteous and sincere expression of concern.  Today is Sunday, my day of rest and to be with my family, so I answer only briefly for now:

It is not aimed at Muslims--and it is not aimed at you (indeed if you look a number of pages down you will find on this forum a thread about Filipino Muslims and Christians getting along very well http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=698 ) it is aimed at those who attack us and those who deny others the right to pursue matters of belief as they see fit.  Indeed the "Infidel" shirt we wear uses their name for us.

You raise important questions and I look forward to doing my best to answer them in the coming days.

Until then, my questions for you-- why do you assume that all Muslims are the intended target instead of only the fascists amongst you?  Did not the United States stop England, France and Israel in 1956 from retaking the Suez Canal?  Have we not had close military alliance with democratic Turkey for many decades?  Did not the United States strongly support Afghanistan when it was invaded by the Soviet Empire? Did we not stop Saddam Hussein from conquering Kuwait and threatening the entire Arabian peninsula?  Did we not institute "no-fly zones" when he went to obliterate the Kurds in the north and the Shiites in the south of Iraq? Did we the United States not save the Muslims of Yugoslavia while Europe dithered?  Did we not free Afghanistan from the religious fascism of the Taliban? (Whither Afghanistan now is of course a separate question , , ,)  Has not Iraq had three elections and does it not now have its own government? Do we not spill our own blood so that this can succeed?  Did we not help the people of Indonesia after the terrible wave?  Did we not help the people in the mountains of Pakistan after the terrible earthquake?

Sincerely,
Marc/Crafty Dog

edited on June 10 to add additional examples.
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Sitbatan
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2006, 10:08:58 PM »

Salam Crafty,

Thank you for your intelligent and courteous reply.  If you are targeting the Facist or extremist amongst the muslims... terrorists, criminals, pirates, so be it.  But amongst all people there are criminals and garbage.  

I am sorry if I have taken the photo to mean something else.  

Thank you for your explanation.

Wasalam
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War is Deception.
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2006, 11:49:20 PM »

Malhabah, keef halak Sibatan:

Yes I agree that there are terrorists/religious fascists, criminals, and pirates amongst most nations.  And I promise to stand with you should any from our shores be a danger to you.   Do you do the same for me?

Turning now to the question of the misunderstanding, I would ask your indulgence to follow up with a question: Obviously you are an educated man who already knew the facts which I stated, so may I ask why you first thought it was otherwise?

Maraming Salamat Po.
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Sitbatan
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 01:38:50 AM »

Salam Guro Crafty,

This is honestly the first time I read the forum.  I see you are a patriot of your country.  As a patriot, you could understand my patriotism or loyalty towards my ideals and beliefs.

I do not endorse any kind of Terrorism, Criminal activities.

The reason why the DBMA appealed to me so much was the Open-minded approach to Martial Arts.  It is a breath of fresh air.  

You are a visionary in my eyes and I have always admired and respected what the DBMA was all about.

It just totally suprised me when I took a close look at that photo that maybe that was me with the bullet holes or my family or students....

Please understand from my point of view... I have taught other foreigners here, are they going to use their knowledge to kill my fellow muslims???

Is it that the true peaceful Islam has been buried under extremism?? Radicalism??

Believe me Guro Crafty... I was just surprised that's all.  All respect to your discipline and God bless.
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War is Deception.
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2006, 08:38:45 AM »

Sibatan:

I sense in you a sincere person with whom a conversation is possible.  Will you engage in one with me?

Crafty Dog
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Dog Pound
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2006, 03:41:51 PM »

In the vid clip, there's a scene where the knifer grabs the guy and almost pulls him out of his shoes with one hand.  That was beautiful!!!  Who was the knifer?  I hope the entire movement is on the DVD.
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I don't know how many of them it would have taken to whip my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use. That's a handy little piece of information.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2006, 07:44:09 PM »

Woof All:

The editing is complete and it is another outstanding job from Ron "Night Owl" Gabriel!

Pretty Kitty will finish the box cover in the next day or two and then it all goes off to the duplication house.

Once we have the actual copies in our paws for shipping, the pre-order price will be a thing of the past.  Gabe and I are discussing what the new price should be, but know this-- it is a triple disc.  The first two are instructional and the third is interviews of Gabe and me (done the Dog Brothers way of course) and is full all kinds of stray dog tidbits including several fights.

Woof,
Guro Crafty
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2006, 08:41:17 AM »

Masters and cover now at the Duplication House so we will begin shipping very soon.

In the meantime, here this from

http://www.westcoastcombatives.com/
------------

INTERFACE OF GUN/KNIFE/EMPTY HAND AKA Die Less Often Promo
Consistency Across Categories is a DogBrothers theme, and this new video from the duo of Marc Denny & Gabe Suarez is an excellent example of the hybrid approach current bleeding edge combatives instructors are taking with respect to personal threat management.

Here's the trailer, and yours truly can be seen in several of the mock skirmishes!

Idea: The ingrained initial threat response should be identical regardless of how the opponent(s) is armed. Furthermore, it should remain identical whether or not the responder is armed or not. ie. Neutralize the threat, create an opportunity, THEN escalate your response with a weapon.

I came to fully appreciate this as I tried an experiment: the threat was 6-7 feet away. He had blades. I moved to the side giving me an extra three feet. All seemed well as I reached for my trainer gun. Man w. blade was now 4 feet away. I was wearing workout pants. The gun slipped down my pants. The blade was now in my face, I was falling backwards no gun, no knife, no defense, No Hope. The next time around, I dealt with the threat rather than attempting to escalate force via weapon, and I fared much better. Tueller's law strikes again. If you are a LEO or function in some form of high risk physical security threat model, I HIGHLY recommend doing significant amounts ECQ hand to hand training.

One interesting point of note, the video mentions the most critical component of the seminar: dog-catcher concept/technique. However you will not see it within the promo-video. They have keep you in suspense (and get you to buy the video somehow).

The two days of training captured in this video were quite interesting, and a worthwhile experience. This techniques are especially useful IF you need a crash course in ECQ combat.

From my personal experience, there are NO arts and crafts in this seminar, just purely operational threat management techniques. From my viewing of the promo, I believe it is safe to say that the video captured the spirit of the class: Train Hard, Train Smart, and Die less Often.
posted by /dn at 7/02/2006 02:08:01 AM 0 comments
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2006, 07:34:28 PM »

This is a rough draft of an interview by LEO Kevin Davis which may appear in a LEO oriented publication.  Thanks for his gracious permission to post here:
===========

 
LEO Interview:



1)    Most law enforcement officers are of the opinion that "the suspect
brought a knife to a gunfight". Why is this mindset dangerous?

 It is not a fight.  It is an ambush.  The initiation goes to the knifer
because he is the bad guy.  A knife never runs out of ammo.  A knife never goes
out of battery-- even  during a life and death struggle between two men.
Like the gun, the point of the knife can kill.  Unlike the gun, not only can
you not grab the edge, but the edge can kill you as well.  When a
knife is inserted, the amount of damage that can be done with
twisting, slashing  and other continuing motions is extraordinary.


2)    Most shootings take place within 6 feet and look little like
 standard firearms training.  With your experience in full-contact stick
 fighting, where do you think we're going wrong?

First I would like to make very clear that I don't think in terms of you guys "going wrong", I simply think I have something to offer.

Second, I'd like to make clear that I regard my experience with Real Contact
Stickfighting as only part of what I bring to the table.  In addition to
quality training under some of the finest martial ats teachers in the
world, I have been teaching prison guards, law enforcement, and elite military
 soldiers for years now.  I am a Level Three Combatives Instructor for the
US Army.  My point here is that by teaching these men and women I also have
 learned.  I always ask questions and ask for questions.  By engaging with
these real world questions, I continue to learn.

 That said, as asked your question is strictly about firearms training.
This is NOT an area of expertise for me-- quite the contrary.  Yet the logic of
 firearms is implicit in what I teach and I have set about rectifying this
 weak link in my chain.  This is why the "Die Less Often:  Intro to the
 Interface of Gun, Knife and Empty Hand" is a joint project with noted
combat firearms instructor and former LEO Gabe Suarez.  Conversely it is precisely
Gabe's experience with shootings occurring within 6 feet that brought him
to me.  Coming from complementary directions, we arrive at the same place--  
the interface of gun, knife and empty hand.

 In other words, my contribution is to the combatives element of the
 interface, including weapon protection and retention, weapon access,
and defense against weapons including disarms and weapon captures.

 The martial arts which form the core of my training (Kali-Silat and others)
 are precisely about contact weapons such as stick, knives, clubs, staffs,
 improvised weapons, etc.  They were developed not for young male ritual
 hierarchical combat but for life and death conflict-- conflict which
 involves ambush, uneven numbers in 360 degree situations, weapons.  The
 access issues of a gun during ECQ overlap considerably with the access
 issues of stick/ASP/baton/knife during ECQ-- likewise the retention issues.
 I think where my experience in the adrenal state using these skills in Real
 Contact Stickfighting (about 140 fights) and considerable experience in
 training others to do so as well is relevant.  Although I am but a
civilian,  I have had a moral place wherein to experience the adrenal application of
my training to a far greater than if I had to wait for "on the street"
experience. I certainly would have to be a person of very poor judgement and/or morality
 to have this amount of adrenal experience in a "normal" life!!!

Anyway, because of these things people seem to appreciate what I can
contribute.

 3)    How can police engage in realistic close quarters or extreme close
 quarters firearms training that incorporates empty hand?

 I am sure that you and your readers are familiar with simuntions training,
 scenario training, and so forth.  These are all very good!  What I would
 offer to the mix is what we call the Kali Fence and the Dog Catcher, weapon
 access once the fight has started and both the restraint methods and the
 extreme violence methods which I have been taught.

 The Kali Fence is a particular fence that in my opinion is ideal for
conducting interviews with dubious individuals, weapons retention, pre-emption,
interception of all the likely attack angles.  It is set up to work against larger and
stronger individuals as well.  There is a body of material for pre-empting and intercepting attacks that is ideal for solving/countering/avoiding common concealed gun and knife draws as well as empty hand attacks while positioning the officer for cuffing or drawing his sidearm or other tools.

The Dog Catcher is for when we are reacting to an attack; if we already are
in a Kali Fence, then so much the better.

In ECQ the reaction time is a split second.  As recognized by DT instructors
everywhere, there is considerable value in having a "non-diagnostic default
response" i.e. something that officers can automatically do when sudden
aggressive moves are made towards them without first having to discern
exactly the nature of the attack because simply there is not enough time.  As I
understand it, the idea is to survive the initial ambush strike and get into the
fight.  My understanding is that these default positions typically are about
protecting the head and neck.  My concern is that if the attack is with a
knife that the lung/heart are exposed to the very common hooking/stabbing motion,
the belly exposed to the slash, and the groin/femoral exposed to rising
hooking/stabbing motions.

The Dog Catcher does require diagnosis as to whether the attack comes from the right or left.  If the attack comes from the perp?s left side a different response is called for.  Because the Kali Fence?s hand position defines centerline the response on this side readily becomes quite instinctive.  The Dog Catcher is for attacks that come from the right?and some 90% of the population is right handed.  As we see in our stickfighting, in footage of prison attacks, in footage of riots and street attacks, the natural human tendency in the enraged state is what we call ?caveman? strikes?be they empty handed, with clubs or with knives.

This can be done crudely or in a cultivated manner?what we call the ?prison sewing machine? which is demonstrated in the promo clip for ?Die Less Often?  by my good friend and longtime federal prison guard Dogzilla.

My thinking on this point originated in a conversation I had several years ago with a former member of the Aryan Brotherhood who had killed people in prison.  

?What technique did you use??

He looked at me like I was an idiot.  I felt like an idiot.

?You don?t use any technique.  You steel yourself up; (his body began to steel up as memories were awakened) you pump him until he is dead; and then you bind your wounds.?

In the Dog Catcher I seek to offer something that can readily be done in the high adrenal state (and here I think my experience as a Dog Brothers stick fighter and as someone who has taken many people from all walks of life to the level where they can perform at this level of pressure helps me a lot) against someone who is steeled up and is coming to pump an officer until he/she is dead.

Apart from slight adjustments due to the angle of attack, the Dog Catcher is non-diagnostic in the sense that applies to both common empty hand and common knife attacks on the high, middle and rising hook lines.

Also very important is that it is designed to offer the officer the option of taking the perp down for disarming and cuffing OR breaking off at an angle to access the sidearm or other tools.  THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT.  For a civilian, this would be the moment to run away.


 4)    What has your "field testing" found about close quarters deadly
 force incidents that surprised you?

Given my Dog Brother background? vigorous testing is something I strongly believe in.  Something that surprised me very much was that there were times that the ?knifer? wound up on the good guy?s back- typically at about 04:30?as he applied the Dog Catcher.  I could have blamed poor execution of the technique, but really the only relevant thing is that it was happening.  That said, what surprised me even more was that, because of the relative position of hands and limbs, this turned out to be a Plan B position of considerable merit for the good guy.  Experimentation and research are indespensible!

If this is not answering your question as intended, I apologize?but as a civilian my philosophy is ?What you think of me is none of my business.?  In other words, I do not respond to insults and other such foolishness.  As such, so far I have been able to avoid deadly force incidents in my own life?apart from that one time that got me thrown into a Mexican prison for three days, but that was to save a girl from being dragged off to be raped by four guys.  But I digress , , ,

5)    In your opinion what is the state of modern police suspect control
 or defensive tactics training?

I do not regard myself as qualified to have an opinion!  My impression, based upon numerous informal conversations it that this is an area in tremendous flux.  Some departments seem to be rather fossilized, and others are very cutting edge.  I believe I have something to contribute and if the officers agree, then that is my great honor.


The Adventure continues,
Marc ?Crafty Dog? Denny
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TomFurman
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2006, 11:23:16 PM »

This video is sobering after your interview.

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/vids/knifekilling.wmv

--Tom Furman
www.physicalstrategies.blogspot.com
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2006, 10:07:56 AM »

Bad news and good news.

The bad news is the duplication house will not be shipping us DLO until 8/23. 

The good news is that the pre-order price remains in place until then AND the reason for the delay is that because of the size of our order the duplication house is using the top grade technology in running off the discs.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2006, 12:33:37 PM »

NOW SHIPPING!!! cool
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peregrine
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2006, 11:15:49 PM »

great news...
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prentice crawford
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« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 01:34:18 AM »

Woof,
? There are moments in history where a small event changes the scope of importance of a personal passion. I feel strongly that the release of this DVD will take The Dogbrothers Martial Arts Association to another level and Guro Crafty's passion will gain new followers from far and wide. For those of you that plan buy this DVD but have not yet joined the DBMAA, now is the perfect time to do it. Not only will you get a discount on the DVD, you will get a head start on everyone else as you go through the tons of info on the members only site. The vid-lessons and subject matter on the members only forum, will make everything you know about the martial arts more valuable to you.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?P.C.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 03:18:51 AM by prentice crawford » Logged

Guard Dog
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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2006, 02:42:55 PM »

I got it in the mail today and I just finnished watching, great great material.  I can't wait to hear everyones thought on this DVD. 

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
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Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association
"Smuggling Concepts Across the Frontiers of Style”
ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
Dog Pound
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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2006, 07:20:48 PM »

Just found mine in the mail ... and no time to watch it, until tonight.
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I don't know how many of them it would have taken to whip my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use. That's a handy little piece of information.
- Ron White

http://ironpunk.blogspot.com/
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2006, 09:56:32 AM »

A post from the Eskrima Digest:
============================

From: "Kevin Davis" <
Subject: [Eskrima] Dogbrothers Die Less Often DVD


Just received my new (3) DVD set "Die Less Often: Intro to the interface of
gun, knife, and empty hand" from the Dogbrothers.

Forum member Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny has teamed with former LEO and firearms
instructor Gabe Suarez to produce an innovative program for interfacing empty
hand and pistol against a knife wielding assailant.  As a full-time LEO and
firearms trainer as well as a FMA player, I can heartily endorse the product.
Too many officers or for that matter CCW permit holders believe their pistol
will solve all problems.  What Crafty has reminded us and given concepts and
techniques for overcoming, is that the knife can be devastating at close range
and the threat must be neutralized prior to or while the handgun is accessed.

All handgun carriers should remember that a gunfight is first and foremost a
fight.  Too often pistol training on a "flat range" looks more like
competition instead of the down and dirty close range "gunfight" it frequently
is.

As Marc would say, a tail wag for a fine product from Crafty and Suarez.  I
for one am looking forward to more in this regard.

Mabuhay ang Inayan Eskrima!

KD
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2006, 07:44:14 PM »

Woof All:

Reprinted here with permission:

yip!
Guro C.
==========

I received your '' die less often dvd" in a word --outstanding--I have been in martial arts since i was 15 and have attended the major gun schools- now at 56--this blend of close contact is long overdue--no one else but you and gabe seem to cover it --all of my other knife training is lethal to the user--I see yours taught then fought--thanks--semper fi--Rick Duplant
--p/s i am giving copies { i have bougt 5 so far } to my sons. may God keep them safe.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2006, 05:31:47 PM »

Here's a recent letter of recommendation from some training I did using the material in the "Die Less Often" DVD. In the interest of accuracy, I must note that when I train LEOs that additional material is shown which is not shared with the general public:

The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog

===================

To whom it may concern:

We would like to express our sincere appreciation to Guro Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny, Head Instructor of Dog Brothers Martial Arts for allowing us an opportunity to participate in his excellent no-nonsense edged weapon defense class. The techniques and methodologies taught succeed where others fail because:

1) of the innovative "Kali Fence", which as a field interview position allows the officer both to prevent access to his sidearm, to advantageously frame the possible angles of engagement to effectively pre-empt attacks, and to initiate handcuffing procedures. 2) the material taught is responsive to the primal realities of criminal assault with edged weapon and with empty hand. 3) the material taught gives the officer the option of creating the range and angle necessary to safely access his/her sidearm or move to restrain/disarm/cuff. 4) the teaching methods impart functional results with surprising rapidity ? officers trained can walk away with something that they can use. 5) Guro Denny is very much a "hands-on" teacher, freely moving and engaging with those being trained to maximize their understanding of the techniques ? he brings passion and commitment to his work.

This course inspires the confidence needed to withstand a full-on mad-dog (no pun intended) street/prison style knife attack. When you have finished the course you will know without hesitation that these counter assault techniques work.

I have been involved with SWAT and Special Operations for more than 10 years and can honestly say that I have never written a testimonial favoring any one specific course of training until now and that is because it simply works. Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny brings the reality of edged weapon attacks to the training arena. His techniques and methodologies are applied, not theoretical. His pragmatic edged weapon defense system is distinguished by the fact that it works against all kinds of attacks to include those coming from progressive resistant fighters employing the "sewing machine" style of attack that is so commonly used by street fighters and criminals.

Be forewarned, this is definitely not a course for the timid, but when you walk away from the training arena, you will leave with the confidence and an unwavering validation that these methods will allow your people to "die less often" as the result of an edged weapon attack.

I highly recommend Guro Denny's Dog Brothers Martial Arts' course for any Special Operations team that is serious about training its people to survive an edged weapon attack. This course will save lives and that is the bottom line.

John Mansell U.S. Border Patrol
Special Response Team
Department of Homeland Security
CBP Advanced Training Center
Harpers Ferry,
West Virginia
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2006, 06:40:01 PM »

From another forum-- names deleted to protect privacy:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well the package arrived in the mail yesterday and the plans for that evening quickly evaporated. I intended to watch a little of the first DVD and then on with the normal routine for that night, I was past the second disk before I realized that I had to get up the next day. It was good stuff!

There are a few things you need to be aware of. The contents are at least PG-13. There are a number of graphic images to show what happens in a knife fight. It is good material that shows what happens when you lose to a knife, it is an important part of the presentation but not for the younger crowd. Second thing is the language. Crafty has a few choice words in the training sessions, nothing out of line but consider watching the entire thing before letting younger kids around it.

The presentation centers around a class with Gabe and Crafty. The bulk of the material is presented by Crafty with Gabe in the picture often and giving his input when appropriate. They did a great job working together. I liked Gabe's teaching style and Crafty's is top notch as well. Words are not wasted but the level of detail and the mental picture they paint makes the material easy to grasp.

I have some background in FMA so I had seen some of the fundamentals of what was presented. But Crafty presents some of the best initial survival techniqes I have ever seen. No system can ever be 100%, that is just not the way things work. But the system shown gives an incredible amount of coverage to what is likely to happen if attacked.

The techniqes are simple and their presentation is clear and effective. Common mistakes are identified and enumerated to help avoid them. Students are shown using the techniques in scenario based drills with a replay review of the action provided to help show what will work and what can go wrong.

The presentation is good enough that training partners should have no problem working with what is presented and gaining a great deal of advantage from the material. Nothing is better than personal instruction, but this DVD set will get you well down the road.
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah I didn't get the laundry done the night Die Less Often came in the mail either. In the last two weeks I've watched the series twice on my own and two other times with different sparring/shooting etc. partners. Only so far you can take it with the coffee table pushed in the corner; however I'm looking forward to the weekend in the gym to run with it in a force on force type scenario. We'll probably all go back home and watch it again after that too.

Aside from the technical issues that are communicated well, there are a lot of mental "nuggets" that I picked up on the second and third time around watching it. The third DVD is particularly good as well.

I almost forgot... it seems like the better the training the worse the production value of tapes are. I've watched tons of video's and DVDs where the production aspect of the video was terrible; of course if the content is good enough you soon forget it. I have to give credit to this one as it was very enjoyable to watch w/ a two camera shoot, audio was fantastic as was the art used in the segues. I didn't see one cheesey wipe from some lame toaster edit machine or canned video effect either.
__________________
"Foresight is better than hindsight, and forwarned is forearmed." -Rex Feral

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I have some background in FMA so I had seen some of the fundamentals of what was presented. But Crafty presents some of the best initial survival techniqes I have ever seen. No system can ever be 100%, that is just not the way things work. But the system shown gives an incredible amount of coverage to what is likely to happen if attacked.

 


I think once you've had a chance to play with it you'll be amazed at how versatile and widely applicable across the CQB spectrum that stuff is.

It's equally useful whether you're hitting the heavy bag or practicing CRG, knife, or stick combatives.

BTW, once you get the timing down, try combining the false lead with the brachial stun on the a heavy bag. Broke several swivel hooks on my heavy bag while practicing it. Pretty devastating. 



Quote:
The presentation is good enough that training partners should have no problem working with what is presented and gaining a great deal of advantage from the material. 


The structure taught in the DVD can also complement/dovetail in with many previously learned skill sets so it's not necessary for you to ditch/unlearn things from other systems.

BTW, there's so much info packed into each disc that repeated viewings are required to absorb all the material.
__________________
Yes, I?d rather not hurt people?s feelings. But there are so many people nowadays who are positively eager to be ?deeply offended? that you?re a sucker if you try to avoid offending them. We?re dealing with aggressors who pose as victims. ; Joe Sobran on the LibComs

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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BTW, there's so much info packed into each disc that repeated viewings are required to absorb all the material.


I plan on the second sitting tonight. The dogcatcher is the best thing I have added to my toolset since the SouthNarc elbow shield!
__________________



I guess I'll have to finally spring for a dvd player
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Al Lipscomb
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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2006, 01:45:55 PM »

I can't say enough good things about the product. I don't normaly post here so let me give a brief introduction. My "normal" job is a computer administrator/security geek/programmer but I am also a volunteer state law enforcement officer. I have a long, but modest background in martial arts including some FMA.

From a practical, use it on the streets point of view I have not seen as much useful material in any training set I can think of. Unexpected, violent attacks have resulted in a number of injuries to fellow officers in my organization. I feel one reason for this is the lack of a robust solution to the kind of attacks commonly seen in the law enforcment encounter. Officers have to interact with people and that requires moving into the danger zone where knives and fists are very effective in a suprise attack. To make matters worse, they often have exposed weapons. So not only does the officer have to defend against the normal fight ending techniques, he or she must also prevent access to their weapon.

The Kali Fence and Dog Catcher allow someone with modest training and moderate physical ability a good chance of surviving an initial assault. This gives someone the needed time to orient and begin a meaningful counter attack that can include appropriate tools. Something many other techniqes do not seem to think about.

So starting tonight there is going to be at least one more guy in the State of Floida in a little different stance at the side of the road!
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Al Lipscomb
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2006, 12:52:55 PM »

Woof All:

The diversity of people who come to what we do never ceases to amaze me.

The following is, of course, with permission.

TAC,
CD
----------------------------------------------------



(That) you actually replied to me ... sort of amazed me because to me you are a bit of a "star" and I really didn't expect to get any personal attention.
 
I got the "Die Less Often" DVDs.  I am taking my time going over them.  I think this is very high quality stuff- both in terms of quality of production and the information.  Seeing talented people struggle to learn and then do better at what is being taught is something extraordinary and incredibly useful.   Your efforts to bring reality to everything you teach is much appreciated and I've never seen it duplicated.  OK...you can see that I'm a fan.
 
I will look forward to the "palm stick" and "short impact weapons".  I think these may be the type of thing I'm looking for.  The staff DVD is great and fits into what I want. 
 
Basically, I'm a guy who has studied martial arts for several years (more than 10- 2nd degree BB in Tae Kwon Do plus some years in other styles) but who is 1) aging (53); and 2) busy with a career that doesn't leave a lot of time for training.   Therefore, I'm looking to concentrate my efforts on the most realistic, most useful self-defense training (that I can do solo).  Of course, I also like to have fun. 

, , ,
 
Again, I really enjoy and appreciate the Dog Brothers.


Craig D. Logsdon, Ph.D.
Lockton Distinguished Professor for Pancreatic Cancer Research
Departments of Cancer Biology and Medical Oncology
UT MD Anderson Cancer Center
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2006, 09:17:17 AM »

Woof All:

I recently had someone tell me he was pleasantly surprised when his DLO arrived to discover that it was a triple disc.  We're incredibly honored that he was willing to shell out $80 for what he thought would be one disc, but folks, please note that this is a TRIPLE disc!

yip!
Crafty Dog
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Bandolero
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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2006, 10:40:09 AM »

Woof All:

I recently had someone tell me he was pleasantly surprised when his DLO arrived to discover that it was a triple disc.  We're incredibly honored that he was willing to shell out $80 for what he thought would be one disc, but folks, please note that this is a TRIPLE disc!

yip!
Crafty Dog

The guys on Warrior Talk know that material on the DLO videos is some potentially life-saving material that is worth its weight in gold.  As you know, I was recently doing some knife combatives training against an MMA guy, and on the fly we just suddenly went through a knife attack.  He came at me committed.   I responded with the Dog Catcther committed.  I pushed him back off balance with the arm "pincer" and my bodyweight.  I felt the moment was right so I suddenly swung the arm back across the front of his body and moved into an arm-bar across my body while compromising his balance.

Now you know me Crafty.  I am the white boy who can't dance.  I am the white boy the brothers are talking about.  But this all worked!  Funny was the comments we both made afterwards.  I said something like "of course I can't really do it all that well like Crafty Dog could", to which he responded "it looked pretty fuckin' good to me."
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"This is a war, and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at any time, in any place." ~ Morpheus
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« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2006, 09:53:02 AM »

A bully boy of Fort Griffin sat down in a poker game with Holliday. His name was Ed Bailey and he had grown accustomed to having his way with no one questioning his actions. Doc's reputation seemed to make no impression on him whatever. In an obvious attempt to irritate Doc, Bailey kept picking up the discards and looking through them. This was strictly against the rules of Western poker, and anyone who broke this rule forfeited the pot. Holliday warned Bailey twice, but the erstwhile bad man ignored his protests. The very next hand Bailey picked up the discards again. Without saying a word Doc reached out and raked in the pot without showing his hand, Bailey brought a six-shooter from under the table, while a large knife materialized in Doc's hand. Before the local bully could pull the trigger, Doc, with one slash, completely disemboweled him. Spilling blood everywhere, Bailey sprawled across the table.


Source: http://www.americanwest.com/pages/docholid.htm.
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Dog Greg Brown
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« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2006, 07:31:25 PM »

I love this material. Some of the best ideas I've seen in a long time dealing with knife and the empty hands.

                    I had the less the honor of seeing this stuff work for me on the street this past week. Quick run down. 230am bad neighborhood walking my dog. I was approached in a bad neighborhood by and left handed man weilding a knife. He approached and demanded my wallet. From training this material with my guys for the last couple of weeks I felt myself shift into the kali fence. It's very funny how calm you are when this happens. I had trained this stuff full contact with my guys (head butts included) so the idea of the speed in wich the situation would progress was not very strange. at this point i felt a bump at my left leg and looked down seeing Brego(my dog). The man raises and points the knife at my face. Brego targets and gets his first live street bite. inside the arm, with his entire elbow in his mouth. Man screams drops the knife, I out the dog and go home. Brego gets a late night steak for dinner.

                   The moral of the story is that this material works. I belived that in training and when "the fickle finger of fate, tapped me on the shoulder and said "your on"" I felt secure in my life with this material.

c-dog Greg Brown
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SoonerBJJ
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« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2007, 04:26:39 PM »

Here are my thoughts after a recent training session:

This weekend I finally got the opportunity to train with the concepts and techniques from Crafty and Gabe's "Die Less Often" DVD set. I met with several forum members... for this opportunity. I bought this set when it first came out as I've had great experience with Dog Brothers videos in the past and was intrigued by the idea of integrating these concepts into a weapons context.

Coming from a stand up background of western boxing and muay thai, I was initially uneasy about the idea of a right lead stance (I am right handed). My striking experience and footwork matrix is all based out of a standard left lead fighting stance. After some time playing with the kali false lead I realized that my initial unease was a result of my lack of understanding. In down time at work or home I would practice setting the stance and moving around the diamond. It didn't take long to realize that in the KFL I feel like a tremendous amount of energy is built up in my legs and hips, like a spring ready to snap. In the standard left lead I feel very comfortable and neutra but there is no energy stored within the stance. In order to move against a stationary object (the guy brandishing a weapon in front of me) I have to generate all of the forward power from a starting point of zero. In the KFL I feel as if the power is already there, in my hips and legs as a potential energy, like a spring that is ready to be sprung. Against that stationary object I am able to generate a more powerful surge more easily and more quickly. Rather than initiating from zero, I am starting from a mechanical advantage. Sorry for using so many terms from freshman physics but this is the best way for me to describe it. You have to work with the position until you feel this. It's critical for the left shoulder (assuming you are right handed) to be positioned properly to feel the potential energy. After playing with this I think several of the guys felt it too.

After working on setting in the KFL we incorporated the brachial stun. This is where the importance of the energy stored in your hips and legs became so apparent. From this position it's very easy and feels natural to spring forward at an angle into the adversary. The power can be delivered through the brachial stun or as a driving force. I found it most useful to drive the adversary and it naturally flows into turning the adversary away so that you can follow up with knees, elbows, make space to deploy your own weapon or just to run away.

We only worked from the KFL at very close range. We were using it as a close range "fence" when dealing with an unknown contact or attacker at a few feet distance. Right now this is where I see the greatest utility for the KFL in my counter-offensive (I didn't say defensive) structure. I've "dry fired" this enough that it's now pretty intuitive to get into this stance when in a close range fence. I feel more confident that I can deliver a large amount of forward power very quickly from this stance than I ever did with a left lead.

We also introduced the "dog catcher." In this first meeting we only worked against forehand knife attacks. I don't have any background in pekiti tirsia or any other defensive knife structure. With a little practice I found it pretty easy to make the initial pekiti and complementary hand motions. After some live knife attack drills I am very intrigued by where this can go.

After feeding forehand strikes we eventually moved to live knife attack drills. The attacker was only moving at 60% and we knew where the attack was coming from but this is only the beginning for us.

I had watched the DVD footage of poorly executed techniques (and the resultant deaths) enough beforehand that I tried to avoid making their same mistakes. The DVD shows footage of live drills at the seminar, both of poorly executed and "successfully" executed techniques. This is an excellent feature because you are able to learn from the failure and success of others.

In the first few evolutions I felt like I did pretty well with engaging the initial attack. I intercepted the attack without getting cut. I angled away from the attack and milked down to the wrist in order to drive the weapon hand down to the mat in what I called the "baseball bat technique." When I was sufficiently focused on controlling the wrist I found this technique to be successful.

After initial success, in a subsequent evolution I lost focus on the wrist and died as a result. I was controlling the weapon arm too high near or above the elbow and took gut and neck shots. This is a lesson I would rather learn on the training mat than on the street. I did this a few times.

Some other observations:

My background is Brazilian jiu jitsu and grappling. I love a ground fight. BUT when you are in a knife fight DO NOT stick around for a grappling contest. In one of the first evolutions I succeeded in negotiating the attack and got the adversary to his knees and had taken his back. I hadn't gotten control of the knife but I had negotiated the attack and was free behind the adversary. When I saw his back my first gut instinct was to pounce and look for a submission. Bad idea in a knife fight. I had the opportunity to run or draw my own weapon and hesitated for an instant while I thought about a submission attack. BAD IDEA. Run or shoot the fucker. Another lesson I'd rather learn on the mat than on the street. I didn't have that problem again. I made the mental context shift after that first evolution and never had the problem again. I didn't end up dying in that evolution but it was an important reminder.

This is a critical point for anyone that has ever competed in martial arts, grappling or MMA. It was first brought home in Southnarc's ECQC. I died several times there because I wanted to fight when I should've just run or shot the fucker. This kind of training is critical to rid yourself of such notions when in a fight with weapons.

Another problem that arose a few times was when I would negotiate the initial attack and get the attacker to his knees while retaining control of the wrist. Everything looked pretty good from my position behind him until he would pass the knife to the other hand. When you can't see the knife it's easy to focus so much on the attacking arm that you don't see it when he transfers the knife to the other hand. I cannot allow this to happen.

Overall I feel like this was an excellent training session and I am very pleased with this material. I have already incorporated the KFL into my close range fence structure and feel like I have the beginnings of a defensive knife structure. I'm really looking forward to seeing where we can go with this material.

Thanks to Crafty and Gabe for sharing.
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sayeret matkal
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2007, 10:45:08 AM »

Sir,

First allow me to induce myself.  My name is Avi I am retired from the IDF where I held the rank of Rav sam'al mitkad'em. I was an instructor at the terrorism school in Israel. I have been in the combat arts for many years. Hisardut and KAPAP mostly but I have  basic knowledge of the Filipino arts.

I have just seen your Interface material and I must say I am very intrigred by it.  I have a few questions though and I hope they are not taken the wrong way.  First, has this been battle tested? Also does it work well against multiple assailants?

Thank you,

JAK
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2007, 11:12:55 AM »

Woof Avi:

You have email.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
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sayeret matkal
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2007, 11:24:42 AM »

Marc,

Have sent you a pm with the information you requested.

Shalom,

JAK
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Dog Greg Brown
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2007, 06:14:08 PM »

Avi, I can only give you my opinion on this stuff. I have been working security in night clubs here in boston for about the last 4-5 years and this is some great material. I feel that it is a very sound block of training for CQC. I actually have a quick story about using this material in an altercation last friday. 


I had to ask a gentlemen to leave the club after he had consumed, in my opinion, enough alcohol. So while escorting him through the club to the coat check where he would be able to retreive his jacket and leave, we picked up a tag along, his friend equally drunk, but belligernt (sp). While all of this is happening there happens to be a company VP talking to a manager about 5 feet behind us. They don't like to see us bouncers defend ourselves. The possibility of a law suit wakes them nightly.  As the tag along is getting more and more irate at me I assume the kali fence (right foot forward left shoulder) with my hands in that very passive praying hands gesture while calmly explaining that his friend had had too much to drink and was asked to leave, and that because of his actions I was going to be asking him to leave as well. He was not happy about that and his body language had quickly started to change, in this order 1. nervously rolling up his right sleeve 2. distributing more weight onto his right leg 3. turning his shoulders the same direction 4. and finally curling his right hand into a fist. Now I know he was drunk but i wasn't aware that he was a ninja and this was not supposed to be seen. So here I am pleading for space in a nice calm voice, and supprise supprise he throws the big over hand right. I step in with the left foot picking up his punch with my left forarm, and at the same time hacking the side of his neck with the blade of my forarm, making sure that it skidded across the bracial nerve. He dropped to his knees at wich time i was on him as well as a few others controling his arms/legs.

After the altercation I was kind of afriad for my job security. But the VP walked over and commented on how professional I was and that he clearly was the agressor in the situation.

The Kali Fence prepares witnesses. No doubt about it, the fact that I didn't get fired is a testament to that.

Just touching back on this. I love this material. As street realistic as you can find.
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sting
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2007, 06:58:28 PM »

Greg,

Great account of your action.  I really enjoyed reading a modern account by someone I know of how these preparatory gestures help with self-defense in real situations.  Awesome.

Gints
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Baltic Dog

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Cruel Hand Luke
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« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2007, 06:26:28 PM »

I am posting this at Crafty's request. It is the text of an Email I sent to him about the private session he taught for a small group of us on Fri January 19th in Memphis TN and the regular session he taught for the Warrior Talk Symposium that weekend. It refers to a session taught by Michael Brown titled "Fighting in the Clinch in a Weapons Based Environment". The climax of the 2 hour block (which I got to take twice) was  two against one assaults by 2 of Michael's instructors wearing FIST helmets and MMA gloves. 



"That weekend showed a lot about how there are concepts that translate between stick, knife, gun and empty hand. For instance we take our stick guru's work in the Kali false lead. It not only is useful in stick and knife fighting, but we see from Gabe's work that it has gunfighting potential too with getting one off the X and out of the way of incoming fire/incoming blows. It also translated well in Michael Brown's clinch class. In my 2 on 1 "assaults", both times I "zoned" to the left side of the left adversary while throwing a strike to his face to cause him to pause. This put him between me and the other guy as I moved to "flank" the first guy. From there I accessed tools and solved the problem(stabbed and shot them!).

Now at the same time, several folks got "sandwiched" between the two assailants when they did not get to the "outside" of one or the other. But the Kali False lead and triangle footwork made fighting 2 guys at the same time much easier to accomplish since I was able to get "around and outside" the 1st and then just have to fight one at a time instead of getting wrapped up by both.

Just thought you might find this interesting. "

By using the KFL I felt like I had a little "head start" on getting to the outside and then being able to use one guy to shield me from the other guy as I worked to acquire better position and acquire a tool to deal with the disparity of force.

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Randy Harris
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bryggjemann
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« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2007, 08:16:44 PM »

A few months back, I had the privileged opportunity to train with Crafty Dog on the issue of the edged-weapon-assault-ambush on Law Enforcement Officers. Crafty Dog brought what his latest material offers; the interface of the empty hand, knife, and gun.  Marc added missing elements to our edged weapons counter-assault program while guiding us to positions of control, having us avoid the blade as humanly (reflexively-reactively) possible. Also, there was thought to a plan B, C, and D. He threw on the light bulb in many areas. Crafty Dog brought the dark minded intensity of the knife feeder, from interviews with humans who have killed others with knives, to our reality based training arena.

Crafty Dog presents solutions to the ambush while standing on good principled foundations.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 08:47:37 PM by bryggjemann » Logged
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2009, 03:21:27 PM »

Deputy Stabs Suspect During Fight
After Vehicle Stop
On January 15, 2009, at 10:50 p.m., a Sacramento County Sheriff’s deputy stopped a vehicle in the area of 44th Street and Perry Avenue. The deputy approached the vehicle, which was occupied by a 58-year-old male driver and two female passengers (53- and 41-years-old respectively). He asked the driver to step out of the vehicle so he could speak to him behind the car. As the deputy and driver were standing behind the car, the driver attacked the deputy. During the ensuing struggle, the deputy felt the suspect grab his handgun in an attempt to remove it from its holster. As he fought with the suspect to maintain control of his gun with one hand, and believing he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury, the deputy drew a knife from his duty belt with his free hand and stabbed the suspect in the upper body. The suspect stopped fighting at that point and was handcuffed by the deputy. Paramedics transported the suspect to a local hospital where he is being treated for his wounds. He is expected to survive. The two female passengers were detained for questioning.
In accordance with the Sacramento County Sheriff’s Department’s policies and procedures, the 27-year-old male deputy (a six-year veteran of the department) will be placed on paid administrative leave. Sheriff’s patrol deputies are authorized by the department to carry a knife during the performance of their duties. The circumstances surrounding this incident will be investigated by the Sacramento County Sheriff’s Department’s Homicide Unit, Internal Affairs Unit, and the Sacramento County District Attorney’s Office.
After he is deemed to be fit for incarceration, the suspect will be booked into the Sacramento County Main Jail. His name and booking photo will be released at that time.
Sergeant Tim Curran,
Sheriff's Spokesman
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2009, 04:16:10 PM »

Daylight stabbing in downtown Buffalo

Dramatic scene captured on video

Updated: Thursday, 26 Feb 2009, 7:46 PM EST
Published : Thursday, 26 Feb 2009, 7:40 PM EST

George Richert

BUFFALO, N.Y. (WIVB) - An apparent domestic dispute triggered a dramatic scene in downtown Buffalo, where bystanders rushed to help a woman while she was stabbed in broad daylight.

Here was the scene Wednesday in front of the Main Place Mall:
"Drop it now! For the love of God, just drop it!"

49-year-old Jeffrey Pearson is charged with attempted murder after repeatedly stabbing a woman right there in broad daylight.
Arthur Perkins said, "And had it not been for that leather coat she had on, she'd have been hurt more."

Perkins started recording with his cell phone, just as a Federal agent drew his gun to stop the attack.

Perkins said, "About 15 seconds into the stabbing, he just came out of nowhere."
That was United States Postal Inpsector Chris Buszka and his partner Marty Arthur who just happened to be outside talking nearby.
Buszka said, "Ya just rely on your training."

At first, Pearson was shaking so hard he couldn't drop the knife.
Buszka said, "Grabbed his wrist which made him drop the knife."
Arthur said, "And we pushed him to the ground and handcuffed him."
Pearson is now charged with attempted murder.

News 4's George Richert asked, "Can you explain your actions yesterday."
Pearson said, "Yes, I did that, but it was her fault. She violated the order of protection first."
The victim had a restraining order against him since last month.

A friend of the victim, Raelynn Loncarevich, said, "I think it was more of a stalker issue with this guy, as opposed to domestic violence."
"But I know the positive is that she's not gonna have to worry about him anymore."
The victim is said to be recovering well in the hospital.

A grand jury is expected to get the attempted murder case next week.

Click here for newsvideo: http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/dayligh...buffalo_090226
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2009, 08:42:17 AM »

"DLO came in handy in Afghanland... Love you Guro Crafty. I've had a lot going on lately. Sorry I haven't been able to fill you in but I'll fill you in soon."

"Naturally I am bursting with curiousity about DLO coming in handy! , , ,"

"short version... the whole thing took about 10 seconds anyway... dogcatcher w/headbutt vs. improvised beer bottle blade heading my direction = awesome!!! ninja takedown moves... sweet. but i ended up between a fence on my right and a vehicle on my left and on my back with an angry samoan contractor on top of me w/an iron grip around my throat ... See Moreand and a fist bashing my face (bad position for me) so i felt the urgent need to draw my blade (benchmade auto). i figured that the top of the head is the least lethal option (didn't want to kill the guy since he wasn't really a bad guy (terrorist asshole) and we're good friends now. the end"
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2010, 10:43:26 AM »

Marc, Gabe:

Your "Die Less Often" material saved 2 lives--mine and the "bad guy" in
March. He is in jail for pulling a gun, and I have been Mirandized, but not
charged with assault. He wound up being a felon with a firearm, and the
sheriff told me "good job", but still Mirandized me for my statement...<g>

Anyway--I used the DLO technique on him. I was not armed at the time--gun in
the car but not on the body, and I can't really go into detail until I know
how the court case is coming out. I made mistakes, that's for sure.

Suffice it to say? The sh*t works. I ain't no black belt, but his gun never
completely cleared leather, and nobody got shot. , , ,
Thank you, gentlemen.
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G M
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« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2010, 12:27:10 PM »

IMHO, when you are getting MIRANDIZED, it's god's way of telling you to lawyer up!
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2010, 12:42:54 PM »

Which is why a fuller statement of the facts and his name are awaiting further developments wink
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G M
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« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2010, 12:52:09 PM »

I wouldn't make any statement upon being mirandized.

You don't mirandize victims.

You don't mirandize witnesses.

You do mirandize suspects, either because they are in custody or may soon be and you want to ensure admissability of any incriminating statements.



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Mick C.
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« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2010, 10:16:04 PM »

In DLO 3, Crafty discusses the dangers of telling someone to take their hands out of their pockets without knowing what is in there, and offers some alternatives.

From the Douglas (Arizona) Dispatch:

"Customs agent attacked with knife"

Published/Last Modified on Wednesday, July 7, 2010 10:06 PM MDT

U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers were screening pedestrian traffic coming from Mexico. During the screening process, a young man pulled a knife from his pocket and attempted to stab the CBP officer.

On July 1 at about 3 p. m. Customs officers were screening pedestrian traffic coming from Mexico when they were approached by a young man.

The officers noticed that the man kept his hands in his pant pockets and was told to show his hands. The man stepped towards the officer as he pulled his hands from his pocket and attempted to stab the officer with a knife that he had been concealing in his pants pocket.

The officer was able to block the stabbing attempt. With the assistance of other officers the man was taken into custody.

The man was identified an 18-year-old US citizen and resident of Wilcox, Arizona.

CBP officers turned the man over to the custody of Immigration and Customs Enforcement for further investigation and prosecution. The man was charged with Assault on a Federal Officer.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2010, 11:41:27 AM »

www.ForceScienceNews.com
 

New Force Science study results: Prone suspects with hidden hands more dangerous than imagined
The latest study by the Force Science Institute has produced 2 surprising findings of importance to trainers, street officers, and police attorneys:

1. Some suspects lying flat with hands hidden under chest or waist can produce and fire a gun at an approaching officer faster than any human being on earth can react to defend himself;

2. The angle sometimes advocated as the safest for approaching a prone subject appears, in fact, to be potentially the most dangerous.

In testing 5 different angles of weapon exposure and attack, FSI researchers discovered that the overall average time that elapses between the instant a prone suspect's first movement can be seen and the discharge of his pointed weapon is less than 2/3 of a second.

One subject in one of the firing postures monitored was able to move so fast that the gun in his hand could not be detected until the moment it discharged. The fastest subjects produced the weapon from under their chest and fired it upward and ahead--the line of approach taught by some trainers as being the most protective for officers.

One trainer who witnessed the testing exclaimed: "Wow! I knew suspects could be fast, but I didn't know they could be that fast!"

"This study is the first of its kind," lead researcher Dr. Bill Lewinski told Force Science News, "and it scientifically establishes that the desperate urgency officers often feel to control a prone subject's hands is fully justified.

"If hidden hands are not controlled immediately and the suspect is armed and decides to shoot, an officer is likely faced with an insurmountable challenge to react fast enough to prevent what could be a fatal attack."

RESEARCH MOTIVATION. Common street sense dictates that a live suspect lying on his belly with 1 or both hands hidden under his body poses a potential threat because of his possible access to a concealed weapon. However, Lewinski points out, "all training and tactics for dealing with this real-life field problem have been based on anecdotal experience, impulse, and supposition, not on any scientific foundation."

Moreover, in recent years a number of controversial, high-profile encounters have been captured on news video, showing officers using what appeared to be extraordinary force to expose downed suspects' hidden hands during capture and arrest.

"Media critics and other civilians, including jurors and force review board members, seemed unable to understand the officers' sense of urgency in some of these cases," says Lewinski, FSI's executive director. "Strikes with batons or flashlights delivered by officers trying to gain control of resistant suspects' hands were sometimes interpreted as malicious outbreaks of rage and vindictiveness.

"It became clear that we needed to scientifically explore the threat level presented by prone suspects with hidden hands because of the significant legal, training, and survival implications inherent in this subject."

Sgt. Craig Allen of the Hillsboro (OR) PD, the on-site coordinator for the resulting FSI study, put it this way: "Let's have the facts. Once we know for certain what we're dealing with, we can understand, explain, and train."

TESTING SET-UP. After some preliminary testing at FSI headquarters in Minnesota and at the Northeast Wisconsin Technical College to refine methods, Lewinski and his research crew last February performed a 4-day series of rigorous experiments in Oregon with the help of Hillsboro PD's training unit.

One at a time, 39 volunteers--a mixture of male and female LEOs and college students, ranging in age from 19 to 32 and with varied fitness and agility levels--proned out on mats on the floor of a vacant commercial building. Each held a .22-cal., J-frame S&W revolver loaded with black-powder blanks under their chest or waist.

Each volunteer fired 25 rounds, producing the gun and shooting 1 round as fast as possible 5 different times in each of 5 different directions: from the chest up and ahead, to the left rear, and to the right rear, and from waist level to the left rear and to the right rear. Each was told to shoot as if trying to hit an officer center-mass approaching from those various directions at a distance of about 10 feet.

Three high-definition video cameras positioned at 3 different angles filmed the action. These time-coded tapes were then synced and meticulously analyzed under the direction of safety-management researcher and doctoral candidate Madeleine Gonin at the Ergonomics Laboratory at Indiana University.

Some of the participants were also filmed by the Canadian Discovery Channel. CLICK HERE to watch the clip."Each of the subjects moved in a somewhat different way, depending on what seemed most natural and fastest to them," Lewinski says.

SURPRISING FINDINGS. From Gonin's analysis of various elements in nearly a gigabyte of video footage, 2 measurements are the most significant, Lewinski explains.

One is the amount of time that elapses from the moment a subject starts his or her first, detectable pre-attack movement (usually a shifting of feet or hips) until the gun discharges. The other is the time from when any part of the gun is first visible until it fires; that is, from the time "something" from under the suspect's body--not even yet identifiable as a weapon--is first captured in a camera frame.

"All the time lapses recorded are startlingly fast--much faster than we imagined before the experiments," Lewinski says.

Specifically:

 

CLICK HERE to see these findings presented in a bar graph format.

DISTURBING INTERPRETATION. "It's important for officers to know how quickly an attack can unfold, because in terms of reaction time to sudden threats, a targeted officer is very likely to be significantly behind the curve," Lewinski says. "This is consistent with findings from other Force Science time-and-motion studies."

He points to the fastest times in which the research subjects were able to fire after some part of their gun first became visible. For some, there was no time gap; the gun could not be seen until it discharged. At most, only 1/10 of a second elapsed. Even the averages, lengthened by inclusion of the slowest shooters, ranged between ¼ second and less than half a second.

"There is not a human being in the world who can react before the discharge in those time frames, even if they are expecting a threat and have their gun up and ready!" Lewinski declares. "Even before the object coming into view can be recognized as a gun, a shot is off."

Nor can an approaching officer expect to be alerted by a suspect's pre-attack movement in time to preempt the threat. Even the slowest average time from initial movement to discharge is less than ¾ second. "Seeing a suspect's feet or hips start to shift to provide a physical base for bringing a gun out is of virtually no value in a swift attack," Lewinski says. "There's not enough time to comprehend what's happening and react."

Most surprising, Lewinski says, were the results when test subjects produced a gun from under their chest and fired to the front and up at about a 45-degree angle.

"Some trainers and officers believe that approaching a downed suspect toward the head provides the least vulnerability because lifting the torso up to shoot takes more effort," Lewinski says. "But ironically the fastest shooting times were achieved by subjects attacking toward that direction. In reality, the chest can be lifted and a gun pushed out with very little dynamic movement.

"Average times both from motion to discharge (0.52 seconds) and from appearance to discharge (0.25 seconds) are lowest in that position. And in the worst case from an officer's perspective, the gun is not at all visible until the instant it fires (0.00 seconds)."

LEGAL & TRAINING IMPLICATIONS. The scientific documentation of how quickly deadly threats can materialize from prone suspects could be helpful in explaining to force reviewers why officers sometimes feel compelled to use vigorous physical tactics in gaining control of hidden hands, Lewinski believes.

The legal impact will be discussed in greater detail by Capt. Scott Sargent of the LAPD, an attorney and certified Force Science Analyst, as part of an official paper on the study to be published by the researchers in a peer-reviewed professional journal. We'll advise you when this is available, expected to be in spring 2011.

As to tactical training implications, Lewinski shares a couple of preliminary observations:

1. In parsing the study data, it appears that prone suspects tend to be slowest in delivering gunfire when they are shooting toward the rear on the side opposite their gun hand. Thus in this study, in which most participants were right-handed, the slowest time averages from motion or weapon appearance to discharge occurred when subjects were shooting to the left rear with a gun hidden at waist level.

"This is because they had to turn more to free the gun arm from under their body," Lewinski explains. "Some subjects, in fact, had to roll almost onto their back before being able to shoot. Consequently, approaching toward a prone suspect's feet may be marginally safer--if anything can be considered safe in coming up to a downed suspect whose hands are hidden."

2. Keeping the suspect uncertain as to the approaching officer's location may be the best tactic for buying reaction time or forestalling an attempted attack.

"This may require deviation from the normal contact/cover approach," Lewinski explains. "The contact officer, who normally would be giving commands, can remain silent while the cover officer, ideally behind some protective barrier, issues verbal directions. This may allow for a stealthier approach by the contact officer and put the element of surprise more in that officer's favor.

"The less information the suspect can gather about the officer's location and angle, the slower he's likely to be in getting on target."

Lewinski stresses that "these are only tentative suggestions at this point. We are looking now to the training community for tactical strategies that can be tested with additional research."
 
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