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Author Topic: Invitation to dialog to Muslims  (Read 77656 times)
Crafty_Dog
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« on: June 10, 2006, 09:32:24 AM »

Woof All:

This thread seeks to continue the conversation begun by Sitbatan on the "Intro to Gun, Knife and Emtpy Hand" thread nearby triggered by Gabe Suarez and I wearing "Infidel" t-shirts with a gun range target behind us of a "jihadi" type person.

Sitbatan wondered whether I was exhibiting anti-Muslim animus. ?In my initial response there I listed all the ways I could think of off the top of my head that the US has acted with and/or for Muslims countries. ?

In his response, the following was cause for me to reflect:

"Please understand from my point of view... I have taught other foreigners here, are they going to use their knowledge to kill my fellow muslims??? Is it that the true peaceful Islam has been buried under extremism?? Radicalism??"

What communicates in his words which I quote is a frame of mind in which it is more important whether someone is a Muslim than whether he is a good or a bad person. ?Is this the case Sibatan? ?

Thus I begin with this question: what is your reaction to our killing of Zarqawi? ?Are you sad/angry that we have killed a "fellow muslim" or are you glad that we have killed a fascist who targetted innocents? ?If you had known where he was, would you have told us?

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog

PS: ?The subject matter of this thread is particularly combustible, yet the need for honest communication seems to me to be as obvious as it is profound-- so I remind all who participate in this thread of the code of this forum "Be friends at the end of the day." ? A special note to my fellow infidels-- any Muslim who comes here probably will be quite outnumbered. ?Play fairly!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 07:29:06 PM by Crafty_Dog » Logged
Sitbatan
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2006, 10:59:46 AM »

Salam to all,

Since I guess I opened pandora's box.... I will take full responsibility for my response... this does not reflect the sentiments or thinking of other muslims....only my view.

As for terrorists, criminals, pirates....they should recieve all that is coming to them...inshallah...God-willing....and God is the best of Judges.

As for the DBMA... I'm all for it. It is a positive in the FMA family.

As for using muslim looking target dummies... I guess I can only control my actions and it is beyond my control.  I cannot and will not infringe on your freedom to shoot muslim looking paper targets.

 I have taught White, Christian Foreigners (although many muslim teachers will not share their art with foreigners) and they all seemed very nice and courteous.  I have not discriminated against them and I have taught them like my own kin.  I just hope my kindness will not go in vain and those techniques return to my descendents as punishment...warwok.

Peace to all and God Bless..Sitbatan
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2006, 12:00:54 PM »

First off let me state that I am in full agreement with Crafty on being ?Friends at the end of the day.?  Don?t take this post as an attack, simply a statement.


Quote
As for using muslim looking target dummies... I guess I can only control my actions and it is beyond my control. I cannot and will not infringe on your freedom to shoot muslim looking paper targets.


First off When I see that I do not think Muslim, I think terrorist, an extremist.  I can?t see one inch of his skin let alone his religious beliefs and for all I know he could be a white half German mutt like myself that joined a terrorist organization.  Breaking it down to even simpler terms I see a ?bad guy.?  I strongly hope that this is not how Muslims view Muslims (dressed up in camouflage pointing AK?s at someone).  Is this a valid concern?


Gruhn
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2006, 01:07:03 PM »

Greetings Sibatan:

Thank you for engaging in conversation with me.

I confess to utter bafflement as to why you see that target as "Muslim".  

Surely the figure there is not how you think of the meaning of Muslim?  

Why not see the target as the bad people we fight?

Who fights us now in Iraq?  Basically two groups:  Al Qaeda types such as Zarqawi and Baathist Saddamites.

For me, AQ is evil.  I look at 911 and ask myself what would have happened if Flight 93, the one heroically brought down by the passengers, had been crashed by its AQ pilot into the nearby nuclear reactor at Three Mile Island?  Thousands of square miles of my homeland would have been radioactively contaminated for centuries.   This is not fanciful.  This risk is quite real.  Osama Bin Laden has specifically called for using nuclear and/or radioactive devices against the United States.    I don't care what religion any group seeking such a thing is, I do care that it, its members, and those that give sanctuary to such efforts are stopped.  

Zarqawi of AQ who often dressed as you see in that target was fighting us in Iraq.  He seized innocent people and beheaded them on TV.  He bombed weddings (of Muslims by the way).  He killed those who sought to build a democractic Iraq (mostly Muslims by the way).  He, and AQ specifically stated that democracy was against Islam (nevermind mostly Muslim examples like Turkey and Indonesia)  I truly do not get why you worry that our being against such a man means we are against Muslims.

Lets look at the Baathist Saddamites now.  

SH and his followers brutally suppressed the Kurds (Muslims by the way) and the Shiites (Muslims by the way) of Iraq and sought to conquer his neighbors (Muslims by the way).  He supported terrorism, including paying $25,000 a hit to the families of suicide mass killers who specifically targeted women and children and other innocents in Israel because they were Jewish.  Now that SH is done for, his followers fear the consequences of Iraqi democracy, a democracy for which many millions of Iraqis (most of whom are Muslims by the way) have voted at great personal risk!   They too also target innocent civilians (most of whom are Muslims by the way).  

Once again, I truly do not get why our fighting such people gives you the idea we are against Muslims!

Indeed, why do you not express support?

Please help me understand.

The Adventure continues,
CD
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Sitbatan
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 12:36:17 AM »

Salam to All,

The terrorists, murderers, and criminals must be brought to justice.  

I can only speak from my understanding, from what I see that target you are shooting is dressed like the Moro freedom fighters here in southern Philippines.  It is a very common sight here to see that, like seeing a police officer or someone of authority in the west.

To you I guess it represents something else... 9-11 or AQ.

There are two sides to each story and we are on opposite sides of the earth.   What we do share is love for the FMA and as long as you love the FMA... I will continue to be your brother in the Art.

Peace and God Bless.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 12:51:18 AM »

I did not know that this type of dress was found in the Philippines.  I associated it with the Arabic world.
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Sitbatan
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 09:03:47 AM »

Yes Guro Crafty the ARMM (Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao) like Indian Reservations in the USA... we have our own Military or Militia that dresses like that... they are our protection from vigilantes and our moro country's self-defense....like Moro Police...they only stay in our area.


 Check out http://www.freewebs.com/tausugchat/  or  http://bangsamoro.com/.
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xtremekali
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 11:05:33 AM »

I have thought long and hard before adding anything to this thread.  Anyway,  my exposure to the Muslim culture is mostly middle eastern and east Africa.  I have broken bread with many families and find them to be gracious hosts and good hearted people.  Now after saying that I will add.  Would I trust them to watch my back in a fire fight.  NO.  Why because in their eyes I am part of a invading/occuping army thats only mission is to kill Muslims.  

Recent history reveals that in almost every major terror attack on the U.S. was engineered by extreme Muslims.  These extremist take great pleasure in killing and degrading the corpses of  "The Great Satin".  I have been called and Infidal more than once because I do not follow the Koran.

IMHO we in the west are exposed to the most extreme part of Islam.  Only because the moderate and peace loving Muslims fail to speak out publicly against the acts of the terrorist.  I have seen Muslims commit horrendous acts of violence upon fellow Muslims.  Their only crime was helping the Infidals.  I believe this act of Muslims killing Muslim is forbidden by the Koran.

The most life changing act and what made me what I am today.  Happened in 1972 when a saw a man wearing a ski mask at the Munich Olymipics.

Would I use the FMA to kill an Islamic terrorist.  Yes.

Myke Willis
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Sitbatan
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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2006, 01:29:57 AM »

Salam XtremeKali

Yes the peace loving muslims are mostly overshadowed by extremist because like me.... I am busy working full-time teaching FMA / self-defense and running a school with children and busy raising my own family.  I have no time for politics or thinking of anything but my familie's welfare.

I believe the extremists are mostly young men, full of testosterone, and are gung-ho....invincible because they have no responsibility.

Believe me most Muslims are like me....busy, busy in business, work, or school.

I'm sorry but can you influence the local thugs? I can't either...it is the job of the police.  As far as Criminals, Terrorists, or Pirates... the Government is responsible to stop them...as a citizen with all my busy, busy self...what can I do?? even my fellow muslim... tell me what can I do??

It all falls down to the Governments they have to deal with it...set up laws and enforce them.  My duty as a Muslim is Pray, Pay taxes, and Raise my kids well...like most human beings regardless.

Peace and God Bless
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2006, 12:46:40 PM »

Quote
I'm sorry but can you influence the local thugs?


I think the difference is that there isn't a one main group of thugs that the ?local thugs? associate themselves with.  While there are many larger groups of gangs and such in the US, few of them are fighting for god such as terrorists say they fight for.  This is where the accepted United States association with religion and terrorists comes into play.

Gruhn
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xtremekali
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2006, 02:06:38 PM »

Salam Sitbatan,

When I hear what can we do about thugs, that it is up to Governments to take care of the problem.  I would agree to a point if it where a local problem.   The terrorist activities are not under any one Government.  But under God.  So IMHO if the moderate and peace loving Clerics took a more active stance against car bombing, the killing of inocent people then maybe more young people would listen.  But by their silence then they let the religion be controled by madmen filled with hate.  We did not want this holy war but it was thrust upon us.  We reacted in self defense.

Like most Mulims we Americians want to work, go to school and raise our kids.  But as Americans it is our duty to get involved no matter if we are for or against.

It is good that something like the FMA can at least bring a small group of people together.

Myke Willis
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Sitbatan
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2006, 08:38:17 AM »

Salam to all,

Actually the truth is alot of us muslims who attend the Sabbath or "Church Service" are only there half asleep thinking about other than what the preacher "imam" is preaching about...  And most of the time the topic is about stuff only a Religiously learned person can understand....ie not the majority of attendees.  

Do not think that because one is a muslim that he is religious...it is an individual thing.... most are not.  

Believe me these extremists are not the majority of us...like the majority of White people are not nazis and the majority of blacks are not gang members.  The media has alot to do with stereotyping.

Just some things to ponder on... peace.
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xtremekali
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2006, 10:39:20 AM »

Sitbatan,

Christians and Muslims are alike after all.  cheesy

Myke Willis
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Sitbatan
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2006, 02:26:59 AM »

True true... we are all the same, just don't believe the hype.

Peace and God Bless. Sitbatan
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2006, 08:33:21 AM »

EDITED FOR CLARIFICATION
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xtremekali
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2006, 06:13:00 PM »

Bryan,

I am glad that you have found a way of life that has brought you inner peace.  I too have found peace in the ways of the my grandfathers (Apache).  

First, As a Vet I want to thank you for your service to our country.  I too have spent many a cold night sitting on some isolated air field waiting to go to some place unknown. I have also spent many nights in the Middle East doing the biding of Uncle Sam.  As a soldier/contractor it is not my place to make policy.    

I feel the hostility coming from your post.  Maybe the cartoon was in poor taste. It is not my place to defend someone elses work.  But as you can see the actions of 9/11 have certain effects on different people.  I maybe wrong, and please correct me if I am,  but it seems you take issue with certain freedoms that we have. I can understand this to a certain extent coming from a people that the U.S. commited genocide against.  That made everything we believed and praticed "against the law".  Forced us to pray to their God and forced us to learn their english.  Know after saying this I will get to the point.

I will  share a few things that I have a hard time with that your Islamic brothers/sisters have done.  Burning and cursing our flag, hanging and setting our public figures in effigy, flying planes into buildings full of innocent civilians, boarding buses full of women and childern and blowing themselves up and watching such actions of cowards being celebrated, ect...

Marc, I will apologize to you and the rest if I have overstepped the "be friends at the end of the day"  rule.

Myke Willis
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2006, 11:44:18 PM »

Edited for clarification
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2006, 06:23:03 AM »

Bryan:

Its 0430 and several mosquito bites have woken me up, so I may not be at my most lucid here, but OTOH in this moment I have the time to answer.

A brief review of the context of the "apology" which has upset you, culled from the Buy Danish thread.

BEGIN
Flemming Rose, the cultural editor of the conservative daily newspaper Jyllands-Posten, contacted 40 cartoonists and asked them to draw the prophet as they saw him. This was meant to highlight the difficulty experienced by Danish writer K?re Bluitgen in finding artists to illustrate his children's book about the Qur'an and Muhammad.
 
The cover of K?re Bluitgen's children's book.Artists previously approached by Bluitgen were reportedly unwilling to work with him for fear of violent attacks by extremist Muslims. Rose eventually received twelve entries from different cartoonists and published them alongside an article on self-censorship and freedom of speech.

The foreign ministries of eleven Islamic countries demanded action from the Danish government, and several Arab countries eventually closed their embassies in Denmark in protest after the government initially refused to intervene or apologize.[4]

A group of Danish Imams lobbied decision-makers in the Middle East. A consumer boycott was organised in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and other Middle East countries.[5] Rumours spread via SMS and word-of-mouth.[6] The foreign ministers of seventeen Islamic countries renewed calls for the Danish government to punish those responsible for the cartoons. The Organization of the Islamic Conference and the Arab League demanded that the United Nations impose international sanctions upon Denmark and EU introduce blasphemy laws.[7] For weeks, numerous huge demonstrations and other protests against the cartoons took place worldwide. On February 4, 2006, the Danish and Norwegian embassies in Syria were set ablaze, with no injuries. In Beirut, the Danish Embassy was set on fire,[8] leaving one protester dead.[9] Altogether, at least 139 people were killed in protests,[10] mainly in Nigeria, Libya, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Several death threats and reward offers for killing those responsible for the cartoons have been made,[11] resulting in the cartoonists going into hiding. Four ministers have resigned amidst the controversy, among them Roberto Calderoli and Laila Freivalds.[12]
END

BEGIN
Tehran, Iran, Feb. 28 ? A senior Iranian cleric has approved attacks on foreign embassies in Tehran over the publication of insulting cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in European dailies, a website belonging to the office of hard-line Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad reported.
END

As for the prohibition on the depiction of the Mohamed, it looks like  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/book_covers/
shows this simply to be not the case.  

I have also seen apparently serious articles doubting the claim about the alleged Koranic injunction against depicting Mohammed.  Can you give a specific citation?

Whatever one thinks about the cartoons, a couple of points need to be kept in mind:

In the west, we are allowed to blaspheme, especially in the context of political speech-- and here there was a massive worldwide effort, including the 17 Muslim governments to suppress free speech and in many, many cases to intimidate with violence including by high ranking government officials.

Where is your outrage when Jews are regularly called "monkeys and pigs" by top level Muslim clerics in Islam's homeland of Saudi Arabia and through out the Middle East?  Where is your outrage when official Saudi media and official media in other Arab countries report as truth that Jews take the blood of Arab children for religious ceremonies?  Where is your outrage when Egyptian TV produces a series based upon the well-known fraud "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".  Where is your outrage when a Muslim who converts to Christianity is sentenced to death (as called for by the Koran) in Afghanistan? Where was your outrage when the Taliban dynamited Buddist statues?  Where is your outrage when other religions are prohibited by in Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam?  Where is your outrage that the whole country of Denmark is blamed for the polticial speech of a handful of its citizens?  One could go on at length with many such examples.  

IN THIS CONTEXT a hearty "fcuk you" by those whom these religious fascists intend to intimidate seems to me well less than a cause for outrage.  

Because your second post clarifies that the "fcuk you" is your real problem, I will pass commenting on your rather odd conspiracy allusions to the Clintons (whom I loathe btw) in Arkansas.

A couple of additional questions if I may:

Were you a Muslim at the time of the events you describe in 1986?

All members of the US Armed Forces take an oath to uphold and defend the US Constitution.  The First Amendment of the US Constitution calls for the separation of church and state.   As you tell us, you take your Islam quite seriously, and Islam calls for a union of church and state.  How do you reconcile this discrepancy?  

The First Amendment also calls for free speech.  Yet you seem to think the cartoonists were "asking for it".  Would you flesh this out please?

Thank you for your participation here.
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2006, 10:23:31 AM »

Edited for clarification
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2006, 11:25:17 PM »

Bryan:

I will be glad to answer your questions, but would you first please finish answering mine?

"Were you a Muslim at the time of the events you describe in 1986? (and more specifically when did you become a Muslim?)


All members of the US Armed Forces take an oath to uphold and defend the US Constitution. The First Amendment of the US Constitution calls for the separation of church and state. As you tell us, you take your Islam quite seriously, and Islam calls for a union of church and state. How do you reconcile this discrepancy?

The First Amendment also calls for free speech. Yet you seem to think the cartoonists were "asking for it". Would you flesh this out please?

Thank you,
CD
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2006, 01:51:27 AM »

EDITED FOR CLARIFIATION
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2006, 06:32:24 PM »

see final post
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2006, 06:43:50 PM »

see final post
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2006, 07:55:26 PM »

see final post
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Gabe Suarez
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2006, 09:55:30 PM »

I don't post here often as my time is very scarce these days.  Marc D is my good friend and dare I say, brother in arms.  

Interesting thread.  

I think that the Marine Commandant is probably following orders from above him.  Believe me that there are plenty of people who would set him straight if he was not.  POTUS wants to cultivate allies not enemies.

Was this right or wrong to do?  Not my call as I am not a Marine.
I have my ideas about what this entire war is all about, but that is for another time.
 
I think the gist of the thread is that Muslims are being treated with less than courtesy by some people (ie. the Danish cartoons for example).  Well, that may be so.  But I hardly need to remind anyone that the sum total of all terrorism against Americans in that past 25 years excluding McVeigh has one common thread running through it.  Moreover, I didn't see many Orthodox Rudssians, Episcopalians, or Presbyterians rioting when Christ was depicted disrespectfully in turn.  Nor have I seen or heard of Israel bombing a mosque when an Israeli flag gets burned again. Call me crazy maybe, but actions speak far louder than any words.

The biggest step that "Mainstream Muslims" could take in order to change their "image", is for their religious leaders to come out and condemn publically and totally the acts of terrorism being committed by Hamas, Al Queda, etc.  And to keep doing it continually.  And for the masses in these islamic countries to do likewise.  

As of now, there have not been many loud exclamations of this, and that contributes to the distrust.  Well, no intention to throw a grenade into the works, just my .02 on the issue.
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Gabe Suarez
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"Blessed be the Lord my Rock
Who trains my hands for war,
And my fingers for battle."

Psalm 144:1
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2006, 12:22:09 AM »

Bryan:

Sorry for the delay in my response, but I have been busy with finishing the "Die Less Often" DVD, helping some students prep for the Gathering of the Pack, and sundry other matters.  I will see if I can get to this tomorrow.

Marc/CD
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2006, 03:37:11 AM »

EDITED FOR CLARIFICATION
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2006, 06:22:49 AM »

EDITED FOR CLARIFICATION
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Gabe Suarez
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2006, 09:34:36 AM »

In the interest of the USMC?  Yes, I believe the decision was for that reason.  As to orders, I believe he was following orders.  He may easily have been ordered to do the reverse.  Nothing happens without a tactical thought process behind it.  I don't suspect that he simply made a choice and never cleared it with anyone.  I don't know, for certain of course, but I suspect this was discussed at length.  

On the "Big Picture", I think there are plenty of people who have a pretty big picture Bryan.  Few of us get our info from CNN or FOX, but rather from operators who are there...and other places.  At one class recently I had three Special Forces operators attending.  I have old friends who are  working secretive jobs here in CONUS.  Trust me, our info is as current as it can be. Did you know for example that there are several cells inside CONUS planning terrorist activities as we speak?

Incidentally, what do you think about GITMO? Zarquawi's death?  Our presence in Iraq and eventual invasion of Iran?

Today people are suspicious of Muslims.  Right or wrong, this is reality.  This will stop as soon as terrorism is no longer used as a tactic by those who have highjacked your religion. As well, when the mass of world muslims condemn Zarquawi, Bin Ladin, et al as terrorists and murderers, and leave Israel alone, this will no doubt stop.

The collective silence, however, is deafening.  It is even getting quieter with the new focus on Iran.

As I said, I have my ideas about what this entire war is about.  Israel is the focal point.  As long as we support Israel, we will be targets as well.  Certain alliances both political and military are made in war for various reasons.  

Being a private citizen, although I try to be fair and "live in peace with everyone", I do not need to develop alliances I don't want, nor watch what I say for any reason other than being polite.  In fact, I can be as politically incorrect as a leoprad skin coat at an animal rights convention if I wish to.  Few animal rights activists are found as my students and clients.

Well....this being Crafty's house I will stand down now.  Besides, I have a class to prepare for.
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Gabe Suarez
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"Blessed be the Lord my Rock
Who trains my hands for war,
And my fingers for battle."

Psalm 144:1
Bryan Lee
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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2006, 04:35:15 PM »

see final post
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buzwardo
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2006, 06:58:47 PM »

I've been hesitant to chime in here as my experience is that these sorts of conversations rarely lead productive directions and indeed some current posts create a cognitive dissonance I expect will prove difficult to surmount. As that may be, my first exposure to the breadth of this gulf occurred while I was living in married student housing at the University of Wisconsin during the First Iraqi War. We were watching TV one evening when a special report announced that several Scud missiles, perhaps carrying chemical warheads, had been lobbed at Israel. While digesting the news, and wondering if perhaps WWIII had broken out, the Jordanian family across the hall began cheering wildly, and continued doing so whenever a new attack was announced. Something about a family cheering as a fascist dictator tried to incite the entire Middle East to war by randomly dropping missiles on Israeli population centers didn't sit right with me.

Indeed, where Israel is concerned the options I've heard when speaking to most Muslims range from drive all the Jews into the sea to harangue them into giving up territory until they are left with an indefensible piece of land and then drive them into the sea. The venom and fervor that arise during these conversations strike me as unreasoned, and though I understand there is a long list of grievances against Israel, there is plenty of Shia v. Sunni, Jordan v. Palestinians, Syria v. Lebanese, et al violence that eclipses the claims made where Israel is concerned. Therefor I ask right off the bat: can we agree that Israel has a right to exist in peace with its neighbors? If not, then I've no reason to expect further dialog will prove fruitful.

I'm also having trouble with the implicit defense of the violence occurring in the wake of the publication of the Danish cartoons. Perhaps the brush was broad and the images insensitive, but the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of horrors that have been perpetrated in the name of Islam, and other religions for that matter. As such it isn't particularly surprising that graphic representations inspired by the dissonance of holy violence emerged. Angered that brutality in the name of religion inspired said illustrations, more religious brutality broke out. And somehow the prime lesson we are supposed to draw from this is that sensitivities must be minded lest barbarity is unleashed? If that's the construct then I'd say the editorial doodlings are the least of our worries here.

For me it boils down to a willingness to let people find their own path to salvation or perdition. There are a lot of ways to be a human being, I've never met anyone convincingly demonstrating he's in possession of the unilateral truth, so I'd just as soon err on the side of letting people find their own way through the fog. If you can allow others the same kind of latitude, or if you can merely avoid evangelizing when encountering those you are sure are on the path to hell, then we can most likely chat productively. However, if you've got a single point of reference that doesn't allow you to give fellow travelers the respect you demand then there is very little likelihood fruitful conversation will ensue.
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rogt
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2006, 08:30:39 PM »

Gabe writes:

Quote

I think the gist of the thread is that Muslims are being treated with
less than courtesy by some people (ie. the Danish cartoons for
example). Well, that may be so.


Let's at least be honest in that the cartoons were a deliberate provocation of
Muslims and not simply "less than courteous" treatment.  If the editor
of a newspaper in Alabama published an obviously racist caricature of
Martin Luther King on MLK day (and a dozen other US newspapers
reprinted it citing "freedom of speech"), I'm guessing there'd be some
riots here.  That's not to say the violence would be justified, but
that editor would have to be a complete moron to not know he was
asking for trouble.

Quote

The biggest step that "Mainstream Muslims" could take in order to
change their "image", is for their religious leaders to come out and
condemn publically and totally the acts of terrorism being committed
by Hamas, Al Queda, etc. And to keep doing it continually. And for the
masses in these islamic countries to do likewise.


How exactly do you envision this happening?  It's not like there's
some official leader of the Muslim world or equivalent of the Pope who
speaks for all Muslims.  Are CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, etc. going to find
all these anti-terrorism Muslims and give them 15 minutes during
prime-time to condemn terrorism to your satisfaction?

If the Muslim world doesn't see George W. Bush coming out to condemn
"collateral damage" that has resulted in thousands of innocent Iraqi
deaths, should they assume he fully approves of it?
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Gabe Suarez
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« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2006, 10:46:49 PM »

Never mind.  Its a battle I don't wish to fight here.
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Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
www.suarezinternational.com

"Blessed be the Lord my Rock
Who trains my hands for war,
And my fingers for battle."

Psalm 144:1
Sitbatan
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« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2006, 12:02:52 AM »

Salam to all:

As much as I would like to tell the bad guys / terrorists, pirates, criminals to stop what they are doing...as some of the people here are telling us to do, I don't personally know of any...as many other regular muslims or any regular / common people don't associate with people outside their social circle.

It is the responsibility of the Governments local and international to handle this, not the common citizen.  I express my support, but as an individual Father, working to put food on the table, and raise my children who are innocent to the world.....please tell me what can i do??

Protest? I am not an activist...

Most common muslims have about as much contact with these Terrorists, Criminals, and Bandits...as let's say a hard-working whtie American family to the KKK, or hard-working Catholic Latino family to the Latin Drug Lords of south america... you see?

I am part of the mainstream muslims you see around you... work, work, mind my own business, and live. I dress contemporary and my religion is personal.  The media shows the Extreme of everything... extreme sells, common is boring... just learn to see what is behind what is front of you....war is deception.

Peace and God Bless... Sitbatan.
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War is Deception.
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2006, 10:18:27 AM »

Bryan:



I am having a hard time composing a response to you because to me it reads
like you are jumping all over the place: debating with posts made on other
forums; making vague and confusing references to conspiracies in Arkansas
and with regard to the well-deserved American actions against Libya in 1986
and so forth.  I have no idea what these passages mean or have to do with
the subjects at hand.



I also see that you have edited your posts-and so I perforce am working from
memory when I say that your original posts stated that you do not feel that
you are protected by our Constitution, and that as part of being a Muslim
you seek Sharia becoming the law of the land.



Why would you delete these honest expressions of your beliefs?



As best as I can tell, these are the pertinent points:



America is not the Christian nation that you say it to be.  It is a free
nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all.  The divinely inspired
Christian men who wrote our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution
and our Bill of Rights were given by our Creator (note that they did not say
"Jesus" even though they were Christian) to transcend to a higher level than to seek to impose their way
upon others.  They recognized that free men and women of this nation (and
any other!) are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights.
Amongst these rights are free speech, and freedom of religion-which mostly
certainly excludes the merging of church and state sought by Sharia.



Contrary to your assertions, this means that writers, cartoonists and
citizens have the right to write whatever they d*mn well please without
intimidation-including from religious fascists.



You make reference to not going into black neighborhoods and using the word
"nigger" and the natural response being violent and vigorous.  What this
argument misses is that there are Nazi publications in America referring to
"kikes" and "niggers".  And when those Nazis wanted to march in Skokie,
Illinois precisely because it was full of Jewish holocaust survivors, Jewish
lawyers for the ACLU fought for their right to do so in the American courts
that you depreciate (not that your words in this regard are not quite
accurate on occasion) and the Nazis marched and the Jews of Skokie respected
that right.  WHY?  BECAUSE THIS IS AMERICA.



Other examples abound.  The singer Madonna (whom I dislike by the way) whose
stage name itself is a blasphemy, can make videos of herself cavorting in
her lingerie and humping an actor portraying Jesus.  Surely this qualifies
as blasphemy?  Yet all this goes without the Vatican or Jerry Falwell
issuing fatwas calling for her death or the bulk of the Christian majority
nations calling for boycotts of America unless our government shuts her up.
No howling mobs in the street either.



The actor Mel Gibson, whose father denies the Holocaust, can make a movie
about Jesus (whom by the way is regularly drawn, painted and portrayed by
actors with nary a burp from anyone) and portray the Jews so badly that
special dispensation was made for the movie to be shown in Saudi Arabia
because it did such a good job of showing "what the Jews are really like"--  
yet we do not see the "worldwide Jewish conspiracy" going on a rampage or
sending its children to commit mass murder of gentiles by suicide.



The "Da Vinci Code" surely blasphemes the Catholic Church, but , , , no
fatwas from the Pope.  And surely you have seen the blistering commentary
and scathing satire about the Catholic Church's problems with pedophiliac
priests and the institutional cover-ups thereof.  Again, no fatwas.  No
world-wide howling mobs of Catholics burning our embassies.  No boycotts.
The only reaction was some articles taking exception to the movie, some
sermons, and some invitations to the curious to "come on in and find out the
truth."



In the western world in which you and I live, in the America of which we are
both blessed to be citizens, we the people have the right to disrespect
power the powers that be.  That right most certainly includes the right to
blaspheme-- and that includes Islam and its symbols.   ISLAM IS NOT ABOVE
OTHER RELIGIONS AND GETS TREATED JUST LIKE THE REST. If howling mobs the
equivalent of Mussolini's brown shirts seek to intimidate when there is a
mocking of something Islamic, it is our duty as a free people to make it
clear that they can go f*ck themselves.



I am quite aware of the existence "fighting words" doctrine in our law see
e.g. the Supreme Court case of Chaplinsky vs. New Hampshire.   Working from
memory, the holding in Chaplinsky sought to distinguish personal insults of
a fighting words nature and free speech.  This is quite far from the
proposition for which you seek to use it-to justify fascist intimidation of
the obviously political speech in question here.



Concerning your professed tolerance in matters of religion, it simply is
inconsistent with your now deleted expression of desire for Sharia to be the
law of America.  In the homeland of Islam, Saudi Arabia other religions are
prohibited. This brings to mind your now deleted reference about not being
protected by the US Constitution.  You can be a Muslim here because of our
Constitution, but trying being a Jew, a Christian, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a
pagan, etc in Saudi Arabia or many other Muslim majority nations-- let
 alone imagine them having a synagogue for Jews in their armed forces  cheesy Sharia,
which even your post-edited post tells us you like, calls for Jews and
Christians to be taxed as a sign of Islam's dominance.



"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they
prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion
of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax
in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
(9.29)"



Why do you, who tell us "Islam is My religion, Its always with me, I begin
my days with it, I live my days with it, I end my days with it, I dream it
in my sleep," wish this for America?  Why do you wish the subjection of
other religions and to tax them?



And how does this square with your oath as a member of our armed forces to
uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and
domestic?  When I asked you this before you said, "I will always protect the
office of the President of the United States and the American Embassies
anywhere in the world in any country and consider it a honer (sic) to do so".
This is quite a bit less than what is required by your oath!!! It sounds
like your interpretation of your religion is in conflict with your oath.
Please feel free to clarify.



            Which brings me to my turn to clarify-- although I think it is
already clear to you because you have been surfing the "other forum" so no
doubt you have been running into my posts there forthrightly challenging and
condemning the juvenile and sometimes hateful comments that do not
 distinguish between fascist Muslims and those such as Sibatan
sometimes found there.


            (You also have my posts here-including for example the one of
March 8th in the "Danish" thread in which I bring attention to Islamic
groups in India separating themselves from the fatwas.)


            As I have repeatedly said on the other forum, President Bush's
strategy for America in the War with Islamic Fascism (the "War on Terror" is
such a mealy-mouthed name) rightly seeks alliance with good Muslims
everywhere.   I have repeatedly said on the other forum that to turn all
this into a war on Islam would be both wrong and a mistake.



As for your posts about the Marines building an Islamic prayer center, that
simply seems to me to be the normal course of affairs in America.  Any
Muslim in our Armed Forces who fully believes in his oath to uphold and
defend our Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic has my
gratitude.  THAT SAID, I SEE NO REASON FOR YOU TO BE DEBATING HERE
STATEMENTS MADE BY SOME INDIVIDUALS IN ANOTHER FORUM.



American blood is spilling as we speak so that the mostly Muslim people of
Iraq are free to choose-and choose democracy they have-three times they have
voted in the face of Al Qaeda's murderous hatred and denunciations of
democracy as "anti-Islamic".



(Would you obey an order to go fight in Iraq?  From your statement about
"protect(ing) the office of the President of the United States and the
American Embassies anywhere in the world" it appears otherwise.)



I have already listed the many ways and times America has stood with Muslims
(please go reread this) -so the issue is not as the Islamic Fascists and
those deluded by their lies (a delusion enabled by the absence of a free
press) claim-- that we are "against Islam".


Like America, I am not for or against Islam-and given what you already know
about me do not see good reason for you to get indignant over page two of some
website I posted.  OF COURSE the statement is overbroad because it is
directed at ALL Muslims per se!  But who assumes that someone has read every
page of every URL they post?!?  My post of the URL that you question was
made on March 5 and it is now June 20th.  To the best of my recollection, I
posted it as a source of the cartoons in question so that people could make
up their own minds what all the fuss was about.



   I am FOR freedom and respect.  I am for freedom of speech.  I am for
separation of church and state-and regard it to be a profound error to merge
the two as you seek to do to the point that it would change the nature of
what it means to be America and to be American.



The Adventure continues,

Marc/Crafty Dog
========
Sibatan:

Good to see your post.

Marc/CD
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2006, 01:00:50 PM »

PS:  Due to extreme problems with my wireless connection I was barely able to post this morning and in my frustrations with doing so missed seeing the posts of yesterday entirely (wonder what those deletions were?) -- sorry if there is any non-responsiveness in my post as a result.
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2006, 08:27:28 PM »

see final post
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Bryan Lee
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« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2006, 09:22:03 PM »

see final post
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ppulatie
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« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2006, 12:28:51 AM »

The only one here who knows me is Crafty Dog, from another group that we participate in. I seldom visit here, but after seeing the current set of posts, I just had to speak up. My comments are not meant to be personal. They will be general observations about the actions and motivations of Muslims in general.

A bit about me.  Former military. AF Cop with terrorist and hostage situational training in Europe. Never been in combat, but had small support roles. Stay in touch with some AF personnel still.

Having communicated with CD for three years, I know without a shadow of a doubt that he recognizes the difference between Muslim and Islamist. As we all know, Muslims represent 90% of the faith, and the remaining 10% are the Islamic Facists. With one billion Muslims in the world, 10% is one hundred million, not a few or a small number. That is 1/3 the population of the US.

In the old Soviet Union, there were probably only 10% true communists, but look what they did. Same goes for Nazi Germany. It seems to me that to suggest the actions of the Islamist as being only the actions of a few is to downplay the threat. Yet that is a prevalent argument.

I don't buy the argument that it is the responsibility of the government to handle the threat and diffuse it solely.  It is each and every person's responsibility. If there is a problem in the local neighborhood and the police can't stop it or are unaware of it, does one just let it grow larger and get worse? Or does one take aciton.

The Muslim communities and leadership can do much to stop this violence. They can come out against it forcefully and in public, renouncing it time and again. Instead, they remain silent until someone says something negative about the religion or Mohammed, and then they rise in an uproar claiming racism or worse. And Fatwa's get issued to kill the "offenders of their religion".

Why won't they come out against the violence? Fear? Or support?  If it is fear, then does this not indicate that there is more to the threat than what is portrayed?

The local community Muslims can report suspicious activities by their fellow Muslims instead of just pretending that they know nothing about what is going on. And many in the community know what is going on. Look at the number of people who had some indication that something would happen on 9-11.  Silence is complicity.

The complaints about targets and other things is symptomatic of a major problem in the US and the world today. Many people look to take offense at anything that they can. If it involves misinterpreting, misrepresenting, or anything else, it does not matter. As long as they can take offense to make someone else feel guilty. This so that they do not have to acknowledge the underlying issues that are the basis for the issue.

Any critique of Islam resulting in a promoting hatred argument, this is just another diversion by many, taking offense again,  to avoid looking at the real issue.

As to Quantico and the Prayer Center, this is pure catering to the Muslims, nothing else. If there is so much interest in fairness, why not open a Buddhist Temple? How about a Wiccan area? Hindu Worship Center? Get my point?  

GITMO and Abu Ghraib.  This whole issue is another red herring with every anti GITMO group making claims without any real basis in fact about the detainees.

 The detainees have not been identified so who can know what they did or did not do?

Several have been released for "lack of evidence" and then have been killed or captured back on the battlefield. But maybe they only took up arms after their GITMO experiences......yeah...right. And this goes for Abu Ghraib

AQ manuals say to immediately claim torture when captured because it will have negative reactions in the public to US policy.

Geneva Convention does not apply to these combatants for a number of reason.

Finally, compare the "torture" to beheadings and especially the two soldiers captured and killed over the weekend. Kind of puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

Enough for now.

Pat
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PPulatie
Sitbatan
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« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2006, 09:06:22 AM »

Salam to all,

My friend please tell me what to do?....  I understand it is a "Generalization Post" and I am listening.  I am from the so-called complacent, mind my own business, and working hard to put food on the table common muslims.  I am open minded...please let me know.  If I get up 5am and work until night, should I go outside and tell the local thugs to behave?  How about on my day off should I attend anti-terrorist / crime rally?  How about after a grueling day of work and raising a family, should I go do a citizen's arrest of some local criminals??

.........would you?

That's why there are local and international PROFESSIONAL institutions to handle this... ie, Police, Soldiers, Government Agencies...FBI, CIA...etc.

It's easy to generalize and point the finger, but hard to do what you are saying I should do.  I personally don't know any terrorists....and if there were some in the community, I don't think they would tell me.

.........Do you know any?...personally?

Maybe it's my fault for minding my own business and worrying about the rent.  Maybe all the hard-working muslims should quit their jobs and worry about politics....who cares if we don't eat dinner? who cares if the kids don't have clothes on their back, food in their belly? ....of course us parents, regardless of Creed.

O well, I'm waiting for a realistic, practical reply.... peace and God Bless.
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War is Deception.
ppulatie
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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2006, 10:11:16 AM »

Sib,

Not to seem harsh or too aggressive, but your comments tend to prove what I say.  You have taken a defensive position of "what can I do"? Assume that every Muslim takes this position and nothing will ever change.

The government, the military, other institutions, can kill as many thugs and terrorists as they can find, but it will not make any difference until the "common" Muslim steps up to the plate and takes action.

Change occurs in a society from both a top to bottom and a bottom to top perspective. A consensus must be reached that something is wrong and then the leaders and the common person, working together, must take the actions that will cut out the rot and build anew. In the case of the Islamist, the actions must be a massive comdemnation of the polices of the Islamist, a re-education and reformation of true Islam that meets today's society, and aggressive action to eliminate the problem. This has not happened yet.

As people must acknowledge, the return of the Calphiate is the goal of AQ. The methodology to retain control is the practice of 7th Century Islam.

The return of the Calphiate is nothing more than a desire for power and money among those who wish this goal. AQ and others desire that power to control the actions and practices of the Muslim communities, while trying to restore the glory of the Ottoman Empire. By the restoration of the Empire, they can then place into effect the practices of the 7th Century. But, it again is all about power and money.

(This is also true, albeit in a different way, with many of the born again Christians. They desire a certain way of life and use the Bible to justify it. These Christian fanatics would bomb abortion clinics, take away certain rights and much more, all in their desire to control.  The difference between them and Islamist fanatics is the willingness to kill to achieve their goals.)

You will of course take notice that I mentioned reformation. This is a very real issue that must be confronted.  People tend to forget what the true purpose of religion was. It was to establish a moral code that people could live by in the absence of strong authority and a lack of codification of laws. It was also to explain things that were unable to be explained in that day due to a lack of science.  

The problem is that as knowledge and culture advances and changes, religion must change as well to take in these advances and changes. Christianity has had its reformation. So have other religions. Now it is time for Islam to address the issue. Perhaps what we see today is the true beginning of that reformation.

Please forgive me if I offend. It is not my intention.

Pat
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PPulatie
Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2006, 11:10:50 AM »

Sib:

I am on my way out the door for a full day of teaching and so must be brief.  

I think it would be of tremendous help for connections between all people of good faith, if we infidels had a sense that Muslims of good faith such as you seem to be, valued more highly whether someone was a good person than being of your religion-- in other words, that good faith Muslims were willing to act with us infidels against bad faith Muslims.

For example, recently in Canada a terrible conspiracy to commit massive bombings and decapitate the Prime Minister was uncovered.  It was discovered that the fascist muslims behind this were watching Chechnyan jihadi videos in their mosque-- yet no one in the mosque said anything about it to the authorities or even took the lesser step of disiniviting them from the mosque.

As I stated in an earlier post of mine to you, I would act to stop those who plotted evil against Muslims and asked if you would do the same against Muslims who plotted evil against infidels.  You did not answer at that time.  Maybe now?

For example there is a now virtually defunct organization called the Jewish Defense League that is shunned by everyone because they have descended into hate.  A couple of years ago, some of them plotted to bomb a mosque here in California.  How were they caught?  If I remember correctly (and someone please correct me if I am wrong)some of their own people were offended by the evil of the plan and went to the authorities.

Anyway, off to the joys of teaching (and thus, learning)

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog
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ppulatie
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« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2006, 03:08:25 PM »

From Captain's Quarters and Ed Morrissey.  http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/

Hamas calling for the overthrow of the US and European countries by Islamists.  Again, where is the voice of reason in the Muslim world?  Only silence.......

June 22, 2006
Hamas: Islam, Islam Uber Alles

Palestinian Media Watch notes a new video Hamas has posted to their web site, one that calls for the overthrow of the United States by Islamists. The governing political party of the Palestinian Authority predicts that Israel, Britain, and Europe will also fall before the onslaught of Islam and exhorts their followers to maintain their defiance against international pressures (via Michael van der Galien at TMV):

    A Hamas video just released on their web site focuses on the broader Palestinian Islamic ideology, promising the eventual conquering and subjugation of Christian countries under Islam. The way Israel "ran" from Gaza after terror is presented as the prototype for future Israeli and Western behavior in the face of Islamic force. ...

    The following is the transcript of selections from the Hamas video:

    "We will rule the nations, by Allah's will, the USA will be conquered, Israel will be conquered, Rome and Britain will be conquered ? The Jihad for Allah... is the way of Truth and the way for Salvation and the way which will lead us to crush the Jews and expel them from our country Palestine. Just as the Jews ran from Gaza, the Americans will run from Iraq and Afghanistan and the Russians will run from Chechnya, and the Indian will run from Kashmir, and our children will be released from Guantanamo. The prisoners will be released by Allah's will, not by peaceful means and not by agreements, but they will be released by the sword, they will be released by the gun".

The video shows a rather strange exhortation by the former head of Hamas' terrorist wing, the al-Qassam Brigades. Ghalban got killed in the internecine fighting in the Palestinian territories, one particular event he did not predict. However, this new statement by Hamas shows that they have no intention of transforming themselves into a peaceful political force. Indeed, the video explicitly states that the fall of the West will not come through agreements but by force of arms. They link themselves very clearly to the fighting in Afghanistan, Kashmir, Chechnya, and the standoff with Iran.

The US and our European partners should abandon hope for the so-called prisoner's declaration, the NCD, as a vehicle for moderation of Hamas. For one thing, as I wrote at the above link, nothing in the NCD even hints at an acceptance of Israel. Instead, it proposes a union of Hamas, Fatah, and Islamic Jihad -- presumably to pursue the long-term goals stated in their latest video release. The call for Islamist attacks on the US, Europe, and India clearly show that Hamas has aligned itself with the Islamofascist terrorists, and a refusal to acknowledge that will be interpreted as a cowardly retreat -- as the video itself makes clear.

We need to start laying down ultimatums to the Palestinians in the territories. If they continue to support terrorists, then we will abandon them completely and cut off all funding and outside assistance. They elected these terrorists to power, and the Palestinians have to assume responsibilty for their actions. If we seriously intend to wage a war on terrorism, we cannot feed the people who support it.
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PPulatie
ppulatie
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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2006, 03:17:43 PM »

And to reinforce my thoughts about some Muslims knowing things and not doing anything.  As long as there is knowledge of Islamists plotting or advocating violence and the Muslim community ignoreing the problem, there will be no possibility of resolving the issues. Where does it end?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23027

The Complicity of Muslim Silence    
By Robert Spencer
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 22, 2006

We have heard many times that the vast majority of Muslims in the West are decent, law-abiding citizens who do not engage in jihad terrorism. That is manifestly true: most Muslims in the West are not engaging in terrorist activity. Many no doubt have no intention of ever doing so. But the recent arrests in Canada have raised questions about to what extent Muslims in Canada and other Western countries who are not engaging in terrorist plotting actually disapprove of such plotting ? and how many passively allow it to continue under their noses either out of fear or because the ideological kinship between them and the plotters is closer than most Western authorities would like to believe.

In a meeting with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police just after the arrests, one Canadian Muslim leader asked Canadian officials why they hadn?t informed Muslim leaders about the plot, so that those leaders could have stopped it.  

But there is mounting evidence that many Canadian Muslims did know ? and yet did nothing to notify Canadian authorities of the plot. The Toronto Star reports that another suspect, Qayyum Abdul Jamal, actively spread the jihad ideology at the Ar-Rahman Islamic Center for Islamic Education in southern Ontario. Indeed, his ?outspoken Wahhabist views? had ?alarmed? some of the directors of the Islamic center. But by the account of mosque officials, because Jamal unlocked the mosque for daily prayers and they valued his services as a caretaker, they did nothing to stop his preaching. The Washington Post reports unironically: ?He cleaned the rugs and took out the trash at the mosque. For those services, the directors tolerated his vitriolic speeches that portrayed Muslims as oppressed by the West, according to people familiar with the mosque.? No mainstream media outlet seems to have asked Ar-Rahman Islamic Center officials why they thought taking out the trash was a sufficient counterbalance to preaching hatred and violence. Sidestepping the fact that Jamal had been allowed to preach freely, Center Imam Qamrul Khanson said of those arrested: ?I will say that they were steadfast, religious people. There?s no doubt about it. But here we always preach peace and moderation.?  

Yet another imam in Toronto, Sayyid Ahmed Amiruddin, noted that three of the plotters, Saad Khalid, Zakaria Amara and Fahim Ahmad, ?would enter into the mosque to pray, and they would pray in a very aggressive manner, and they would come in military fatigues and military touques and stuff.  It looked to me that they were watching a lot of those Chechnyan jihad videos online and stuff.? Amiruddin said that they were influenced by jihadist material from Saudi Arabia, including Qur?ans with inflammatory explanatory notes: ?In the back of these Qur'ans that are being published in Saudi Arabia, you have basically essays on the need for offensive jihad and the legitimacy of offensive jihad and things like that. Very alarming stuff." According to the CBC, ?Amiruddin said many mainstream Muslim organizations in Canada are really part of the problem, standing by as extremist propaganda spreads in the mosques.? But while Amiruddin points out that these young men would attempt to win others over to their point of view, he says nothing about having done anything to stop them, or about resisting jihadist recruitment in general -- much less working with authorities to help them apprehend jihadists.

Also according to the Star, some of the plotters belonged to a school Muslim association in which they ?discussed at an association gathering whether suicide bombing was permissible in Islam. Their views were so violent that the other association members threatened to have them banned.? But they apparently did not actually have them banned, or alert anyone to their violent views.

Likewise another Toronto Muslim, Mohammed Robert Heft. Heft said that one of the plotters, Fahim Ahmad, ?believed the 19 people involved in the World Trade Center bombings were martyrs and he was handing out DVDs openly of wills and testimonies of those 19 people suggesting what they did was right.? According to the CBC, Heft asserted that ?a lot of young Muslims are angry and extremism is prevalent in the Toronto area.? Heft claimed that he was dedicated to combating this ?extremism?: ?For the last two years I?ve been involved in this mentality. I was dealing with it on a grassroots level. All it takes is a little education and sorting out who to take religion from.? Yet he too apparently did nothing to alert Canadian authorities to Ahmad?s views.

And after all this, Canadian Muslim leaders complain that authorities did not go to them.

Canadian authorities, and officials in all Western countries, have been supine in the face of all this kind of thing for far too long. The jihad arrests in Canada should focus scrutiny not on the alleged misbehavior of Canadian law enforcement officials, but on the Muslim communities tolerance of the jihadist evil they profess to abhor. Law enforcement authorities in the West should call Muslim communities in their countries to account on this, and quickly -- or risk the successful execution of a jihad plot planned and executed under the noses of silent and supposedly moderate Western Muslims.
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PPulatie
milt
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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2006, 03:36:46 PM »

Quote from: ppulatie
From Captain's Quarters and Ed Morrissey.  http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/

Hamas calling for the overthrow of the US and European countries by Islamists.  Again, where is the voice of reason in the Muslim world?  Only silence.......


Quote from: rogt

How exactly do you envision this happening?  It's not like there's
some official leader of the Muslim world or equivalent of the Pope who
speaks for all Muslims.  Are CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, etc. going to find
all these anti-terrorism Muslims and give them 15 minutes during
prime-time to condemn terrorism to your satisfaction?

If the Muslim world doesn't see George W. Bush coming out to condemn
"collateral damage" that has resulted in thousands of innocent Iraqi
deaths, should they assume he fully approves of it?
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ppulatie
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« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2006, 04:23:05 PM »

Rogt,

I used that article to simply point out that there is a strong fanatical element of Islam and that the rest of the Muslim world is not denouncing the fanantics.  

Are you implying that the Western media would not carry denunciations? Perhaps you are right. But if the local leaders would denounce it to their own communities, use other media outlets to get the word out, utilize the written word and other methods, then perhaps there would not be this perception that they endorse the actions through their silence.

BTW, Bush has said that he regrets the loss of innocent lives in Iraq. But I do not see a moral equivelence between the two positions. Yes, some innocent lives have been lost due to US actions, but there are many times more lost by the terrorists attacking their own people.
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PPulatie
Bryan Lee
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« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2006, 05:35:18 PM »

see final post
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ppulatie
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Posts: 135


« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2006, 06:04:40 PM »

Bryan,

I am not sure how much of your post was meant for me or for CD.  I will say this however.

If comments are to be based solely upon personal experience, then anyone without personal experience is being excluded from the topic and also being censored. If third party sources or media sources cannot be used, then again, censorship is being engaged.  The discussion is severely limited tok a point of being useless.

As to hearsay, I have never been bitten by a rattlesnake. Does that mean that I could not talk about how it could be deadly? Censorship once again.

Now, what word or name would you allow to be used to describe the fundamentalist Muslim who supports and engages in terrorism? Wahabi only covers a small sector of these people. Salafist in just another small group. Hamas a small group.  Is there a name that we could agree upon?
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PPulatie
Bryan Lee
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« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2006, 07:46:17 PM »

see final post
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ppulatie
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« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2006, 09:50:42 PM »

Why do you not answer questions when they are posed?

What is a good name to describe that 10% of the Muslim population who supports the fanatics and/or participates with them. That would be a way to differentiate the good versus the bad.

Why does any criticism of the Muslim fanatics mean that one is smearing all Muslims?

Why is it that anyone who questions the religion has an ignorant view of the religon?

Why do we not hear Muslims condemning the actions of the fanatics?  Are they afraid of the fanatics?

Why when someone like Rushdie writes a book, he is condemned to death by Fatwa?

Why is it that when one reads the passages of the Koran concerning treatment of infidels, the reaction of the Muslim is a claim that their religion is being blasphemied and misrepresented? Yet Muslims quote the Bible with similar types of passages and it is okay for them to condemn Christians and Jews.  You don't, but large numbers of your religion do.

The problem is that the Muslim religion has a group of people who defile their religion, yet the common people and the leadership refuse to take a stand. Instead, they claim racism against Mulims, a lack of understanding of the religion, and any excuse that they can come up with to change the topic and put the critics on the defensive.   I am not saying that they are with the fanatics, but I want to know why they will not take a stand against the fanatics.

" Tell me something you know or you have experianced from American Muslims that warrents the kind of things that are said about us when we are linked by a religion to what foreign nationals choose to do having no personal involvement. The old inaction eqauls justifiable inclusion argument is a toothless one, That standard has never been held to any American of any race or religion. "

Oh really?  What about the Italians and the Mafia? The difference however is that the Italians tried to distance themselves from the Mafia. I don't see much of that occurring among Muslim leadership.

BTW, I often deal with Muslims in my business. I find them like almost all Americans . They want a better life for your kids and their family like I and everyone else wants for their families.

There is one occasion that I have run into the opposite, but all other times they have been ashamed of what the defilers of your religion do. They also understand the depth of feelings that is occurring right now among the population of the US. And they do understand that when they read an article posted by LGF and other websites or articles, that the person is referring to that 10% of the Muslim population who are fanatics. Most also wonder why the Muslim leadership does not speak out.

Again, you propose talking only from personal experience. How can you divorce that from what is happening in current events today? The arrest of the terrorists in Canada. The attacks that continue to happen all over the world. Hamas statements. You are trying to engage in censorship with this attitude.

I just want to understand why the leadership and commom Muslims will not speak out about the 10% fanatics.
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PPulatie
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