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Author Topic: Real Fights  (Read 14294 times)
Tom Stillman
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« on: July 09, 2006, 01:19:09 AM »

Kick It!!   http://youtube.com/watch?v=fgtr86t7r_E&search=nunchaku
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
Guard Dog
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2006, 09:57:49 AM »

Good Fight.
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
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Michael6343
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2006, 12:39:54 PM »

LOL.....ahh red neck backyard brawling...that's funny as hell but I have to say I did enjoy the fish hooking......LOL
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Blain
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2006, 04:15:29 PM »

Hi

I have found some realy ugly s**t.
Not realy funny but real and one of the reasons why I train...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2965044120613557730&q=fight

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8911223570728039138&q=fight

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7898521451047870126&q=fight

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=561128562065339063&q=fight

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7373075825120605832&q=fight
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Tom Stillman
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2006, 07:13:18 PM »

I propose that we all submit any real fight footage to this thread and use it to experiance real life situations and better train and/or  prepare our selfes. Be it a gunfight,knife or edged weapons, improvised or other. I know I started this thread with a backyard brawl( not the real thing but very close) But I feel we can use that brawl as a guage for realism. What I am saying is try  to submit fights with at least or more intencity as the back yard nunchaku fight.  I think it would make a great tool for learning. Just a thought. Tom     http://images.google.com/images?q=videos+street+fights&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
Tom Stillman
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2006, 07:24:21 PM »

Lets not forget the ladies.                                                                      CatFightSupreme http://media.putfile.com/CatFightSupreme
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Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.  dalai lama
Blain
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2006, 04:49:29 AM »

Cheesy

Karate works!

http://media.putfile.com/MadU-pimpbeat
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Blain
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2006, 04:55:58 AM »

Ugly...

http://media.putfile.com/Real-Street-Fights---Fighting-Mad-8
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Blain
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2006, 05:00:59 AM »

More Ugly...

http://media.putfile.com/1469

http://media.putfile.com/die_already
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2006, 11:58:10 AM »

Hmmm...I fail to see any educational value in the posts so far. Seems to be more a case of posting clips of random violence than a discussion/examination of "real" fights.

As an aside, I try to avoid supporting or endorsing websites such as "Felony Fights/Bum Fights/Ghetto Fights" that seem to be creating a trend of videotaping set-up fights for the sake of capturing violence.

Out of the 11 links shown:

2 were obviously high school punchfests (I doubt any of us are going to the lunch area and getting into fisticuffs)

1 was a gang jump-in (see above comment)

1 was random soccer game violence with fans vs. police

1 was a skater being a tough guy and taking on 4 kids who were obviously not a threat

1 was police action against a criminal

1 was a soccer gang rumble (which I'm pretty sure most of us avoid)

1 was an individual getting kicked in the back

1 was set-up to see two individuals beat the crap out of each other for no apparent reason (nice Aryan Nation salute at the end of the clip by the way rolleyes )

Only two of the clips could be considered informative or worth evaluating:

Karate instructor defusing an approaching threat
Man being pulled from his car by what appear to be gangbangers

My question to Blain would be, "Which of these situations do you see as important re:self defense or self protection?" Do you find yourself in the midst of a lot of gang rumbles? Are you still in high school and threatened by schoolyard bullies? Are you a soccer hooligan and need to learn better skills in order fight with other clubs or the police?
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xtremekali
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2006, 01:13:52 PM »

I have seen my fair share of riots, street violence, ect...

IMHO most of these clips seem to be set ups.

Myke Willis
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2006, 02:47:10 PM »

I'll go against the crowed with this one and state that I see a lot of things to learn from in these clips.  Just observing the human animal and how one reacts is enough.  While I agree that if one cannot fight back it is a worthless clip I do think it is very informing to observe body language.

Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
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Michael6343
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2006, 09:35:25 PM »

I agree that these clips may not show the mano y mano fighting that some people try to prepare for but what it does show is that life is full of surprises and violence can sweep you up real quick if your not watching your ass whether your the intended or not. It is not a perfect world that is for damn sure!
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2006, 01:07:21 AM »

I very much appreciate SB Mig's points-- yet at the same time find it very interesting to observe what people really do.
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Blain
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2006, 04:48:53 AM »

Hi everybody

First I will answer SB Mig's questions, which are directed at me:

>Do you find yourself in the midst of a lot of gang rumbles?<

Not a lot and not anymore. But I've seen it.

>Are you still in high school and threatened by schoolyard bullies?<

Not anymore.

>Are you a soccer hooligan and need to learn better skills in order fight with other clubs or the police?<

Never have been, never will be.

And most important:
>"Which of these situations do you see as important re:self defense or self protection?"<

Of mine: all of them, stressing the keyword AWARENESS.

Most of the fights I posted show the ugly, brutal, unexpected side of street fights and it doesn't matter if you're involved or just a bistander who might get into trouble getting drawn into something by just being in the wrong place at the wrong time (hooligan-fights for example).
Even if you live in a safe area (like I do now) doesn't mean that it's impossible that some complete idiot (or just a drunk who usualy is a nice person when sober) might (seemingly) show up out of nowhere and claim you gave him the wrong look (skater bully and "will ya move it!").
I also have found out that sometimes it is not always a good idea to finish an argument by just turning your back (the kick in the back).
I still consider shooting somebody in the back when you could have tackled to stop him a bad action, even when the shooters are policemen and the shot a criminal. (But that it's a police-action is besides the point im aiming for.)
Have you ever been in a situation where you got attacked by multiple opponents and wondered what you could have done to prevent that in the first place or to get out of it unharmed (high school punchfests and gang jump-in)?

I too think the film with the karate-man to be the only positive, as it shows a perfect example of being aware.

I've experienced or seen any of the posted situations (exept for the shooting and the redneck-fight) and more myself.

All of the films (including the ones I didn't post) show a bit of the animal side of men, the "darkness", the "demon" or whatever you call it.

If you enjoy watching such films: think about yourself. (For example: Is something wrong with me?)
If you don't enjoy watching such films: also think about yourself. (For example: Does the reason I don't enjoy them lie in the fact that I can't bear the ugly reality when It's out of my own little, limited and subjectiv perception?)

In short what I'm trying to say is:
Stay aware, prepare yourself, don't give yourself to illusions or dellusions.
There's always the unexpected.

Nuff said.

Blain

P.S.: I don't know any of these "Felony Fights/Bum Fights/Ghetto Fights"-websites and definitely don't want to promote them.
P.P.S.: I also don't know if the films I posted were set up. I wasn't there when they were filmed. But that is beside the point I'm aiming for anyway.
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2006, 10:58:59 PM »

Blain,

Thanks for the response.

I absolutely appreciate any studies in awareness. Having worked in bar and nightclub security for the past 14 years I have seen too many times what happens when individuals have a lapse in awareness.

I just didn't find the majority of the clips informative in terms of situations that your average "situationally aware" individual might encounter. Most of us know to do the boot scoot boogie as soon as things get dicey especially re:large angry crowds, packs of gangbangers, neighborhood bullies. Sure the random attack can happen, but situational awareness will usually give you a leg up.

In terms of showing how most people react to violent confrontations/situations, I think some of the clips are great. It shows a complete breakdown of what trained fighters would call "structure" and technique.

I would submit the following example of bad decision making by an individual who "should" know better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Q03qh7BTw&search=knife%20attack

What mistakes do you see the doorman making and what would you have done differently?
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2006, 11:26:54 PM »

Forgive me the moment of smart*ss marketing, but in all sincerity this situation cries out for a Kali Fence and a Dog Catcher.
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2006, 10:31:32 AM »

cheesy
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Blain
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2006, 10:52:35 AM »

SB_Mig

Quote
In terms of showing how most people react to violent confrontations/situations, I think some of the clips are great. It shows a complete breakdown of what trained fighters would call "structure" and technique.

And in my experience that's what usualy happens. That's why I posted them. After all this thread is called "Real Fights" (and I didn't think the redneck fight to be real enough.) (No offense Tom.)
I wished I would have found more films like the karate-man/pimp-film.

About the doorman film:
I posted that film myself in a previous thread.
I never worked as a doorman myself, but mistakes I see and hear are the following:

1. The doorman provokes the drunk verbally. He first tells him the bar/club/whatever is closed and the knife-man is drunk. When the drunk asks if that`s why he has to go, the doorman answers in an aggressive tone "No, because I say so! Understood?"
2. The doorman than looks somewhere else (equals turning his back to the drunk) and (again in an aggressive tone) says to the incoming man that they're closed, ignoring both, the second doorman, who was already dealing in a calm way with the incomer and the drunk knife-man, who was asking him another question. That way he uneccessarily turned his attention somewhere that actually didn't need it and provoked the drunk at the same time.
Unfortunately the doormans back is covering the drunk as he's pulling the blade out of his pocket, but I think he would have noticed had he paid attention.
3. He's smoking and sticking one hand in his trousers pocket, keeping them busy when they should be alert and ready.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 05:30:07 AM by Blain » Logged
SB_Mig
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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2006, 05:30:18 PM »

Sorry I missed the clip the first time around. There is another clip floating around of a stabbing in East London (3 on 2 situation) that I think is another perfect example of "zero situational awareness"

There is a bunch of stuff the doorguy does wrong. You could run a scenario on it and probably have some fun breaking it down.

For me:

1) As per Blain - verbally abusive. One of the best diffusers for drunks is a quiet, calm demeanor. I have yet to see an drunk respond to yelling with a smile.

2) Physically intimidating (getting in the face of) - The puffed chest, chin forward stance is just asking for a cold cocking, not to mention escalating.

3) Again as per Blain - Turning his back. This guy is lucky he didn't get hit earlier when he turns to look at the leaving couple (0:03). He then turns completely around (0:15) before blowing it again and engaging with a completely uninvolved patron (0:23).

4) Again per B. - Hands busy, attention elsewhere. Um, pull your hand out of your pocket and put out the cigarette, Einstein.

5) Distance - The doorguy is standing waaaaaaaaay too close for comfort.
Once he had the drunk walking backwards he should have stopped. That would give him a *cough* reason to "create space" when the drunk advanced again.

6) I would add complete disregard to the drunk's clothing and hands. It looks rainy out, but both the patrons departing and the one who walks up are in short sleeves. Why the bulky jacket, fella? The drunk has his hand on his blade at 0:11 in plain view of both. The knife may not be visible, but why is the drunk guy I'm trying to get rid of reaching into his pants?

I also some problems with the way both bouncers worked with each other:

1) Both should deal with the drunk. As a general rule I always try to have one more security person around than the number of trouble makers (2:1, 3:2, 4:3). Much like LEOs, one to observe and the others to talk.

2)  Bouncer on the right engages with the arriving patron. Not that he should ignore the guy, but my initial reaction when watching the clip the first time was "Who is this guy walking up and is he involved with the drunk?" The arriving patron inadvertedly helps the drunk by distracting both bouncers. You could not have set-up a multiple attacker scenario better.
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2006, 05:32:17 PM »

Sorry my typo:

"one to talk and the others to observe."
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Blain
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2006, 04:16:14 AM »

@ SB_Mig

Interesting.
I've learned a few things and even though I never worked as a doorman, nor have the intention of ever doing so, they might come in handy some day.

I'm also a bit angry at myself, that I failed to notice and mention the chestpuffing, the distance and the clothing, things I used to tell people about myself. Thanks for the reminder.

Blain
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2006, 12:26:46 PM »

Just found this clip:

http://youtube.com/watch?search=UFC&v=pKdZgeesw68

Things get dicey at :33 and take off from there. I wouldn't suggest getting into bar brawls, but this guy does it just about perfect (besides leaving the girls behind wink
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2006, 01:18:58 PM »

Quote from: SB_Mig
Just found this clip:

http://youtube.com/watch?search=UFC&v=pKdZgeesw68

Things get dicey at :33 and take off from there. I wouldn't suggest getting into bar brawls, but this guy does it just about perfect (besides leaving the girls behind wink


"YES, HEAD  BUTTS TO WORK!"

Gruhn
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ryan@dogbrothers.com | www.dogbrothers.com
SB_Mig
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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2006, 12:04:40 PM »

Just found this:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-07-31-violent-fight-clubs_x.htm

Crafty, I'm curious what your thoughts are on the formation of these "fight clubs"? I know that you have spoken often of our society's lack of rituals/traditions which bring young men into adulthood.

Would you consider these:

a) deeply subconcious attempts at some type of ritual/transformative process

b) typical (though in this society, often muffled) tests of manhood and formations of hierarchy

c) just a bunch of knuckleheads beating on each other

It seems to me that the many of these kids are coming from middle/upper class families where the idea of manhood is more based on your car/woman/house/job than it is on your ability to defend/protect/prove yourself physically. Is it possible that these clubs are a reflection of the  lack of ritual or some deep seated need to want to prove oneself?

Curious to know what y'all think.

Miguel
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Dog Greg Brown
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« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2006, 05:00:02 PM »

I have to say that sig mig got it right. There wasn't much to be learned from a self defense point of view, but I will say from spending the last 2 years working in some of the night clubs here in boston I have been able to watch one on one altercations, gang fights, and full scale riots. It has been a learning experiance. Watching the events unfold has been eye opening experiance to say the least.


Greg
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2006, 05:27:30 PM »

In case the article will not remain available for long at the URL cited, I post it here:
----------------------
Illegal, violent teen fight clubs face police crackdown
Updated 8/1/2006 10:48 AM ET E-mail | Save | Print | Reprints & Permissions | Subscribe to stories like this  
 
 
 Enlarge Handout photo
 
Two youths engage in a fight in a scene from Agg Townz Fights 2.
 

 
  PARENTS IN THE DARK
 
When the protagonist of author Chuck Palahniuk's cult 1996 novel Fight Club is asked by a client at a business meeting how he ended up with a black eye and a cheek swollen with stitches, he gives the all-purpose answer of kids everywhere: "I fell."

That fictional scene explains how many teens involved in real-life fight clubs are able to keep them under the radar ? even when they come home from school or show up in class with cuts, bruises and swollen knuckles.

"We know teenagers are quite good at not telling the truth when it's not in their interest," says Mac Bernd, superintendent of the Arlington Independent School District in Arlington, Texas, which is dealing with an outbreak of fight clubs among its 20,000 high school students at a half-dozen schools.

Kids suffering injuries from organized fighting often claim they got them in an accident, playing football or basketball, or some other way, Bernd says. If that doesn't work, they'll admit they got in a fight over a boy or a girl, without saying it was an organized, staged event. Unless the parents have a good reason to suspect illegal activity, they often give their kids the benefit of the doubt. "They say, 'OK, be careful next time, dear,' " Bernd says.

While some fight club organizers or participants will foolishly brag about their exploits on the Internet (which makes it easier for cops to catch them), they often go to great lengths to hide their activities from local authorities.

When Anchorage police got word in January that a fight club from Dimond High School was planning to meet, dozens of students drove to three different sites to throw cops off the scent. A 10th-grader and an 11th-grader eventually fought at an outdoor motocross track in freezing weather; one suffered a broken nose and concussion.

In Arlington, fight clubs often have met on dead-end streets or cul-de-sacs and in suburban neighborhoods where the organizers know virtually all of the adult residents are working during the day, says James Hawthorne, deputy police chief of Arlington's West District.
 
 
 
 
  TIPS FOR PARENTS
 
Fight clubs pit teens and pre-teens in illegal, dangerous staged bouts. Here's a checklist for parents to see if your teen is mixed up in a fight club, as a participant or spectator:
 Monitor cell phones and cameras: Police and school administrators say parents should check their kids' cell phone and computer histories. Look for photos and video of fights. Some teens will claim their parents are invading their privacy. But police say privacy ends where their safety begins ? especially when parents are paying the bills.

James Hawthorne, Deputy Police Chief of Arlington, Texas, which has witnessed an outbreak of teen fight clubs, challenged parents at one community meeting to view the content of their kids' cell phones, cameras and PDA's. Many were stunned at the violent images and foul language they found, he said.

"It's not just the 'bad' kids," says Hawthorne. "The good kids have it on their cell phones. The good kids show up to watch these fights. The good kids become unwitting victims."

 Check for online diary: Many teens and high-school students post their own online diaries on websites such as MySpace.com, Xanga.com and LiveJournal.com. Check what pictures and videos are in their online diaries and blogs and who their online friends are.

Oddly, while many teens are loathe to discuss their personal lives with their parents, they're willing to reveal almost anything in the public world of cyberspace, notes Mac Bernd, superintendent of the Arlington Independent School District. "It's this cyber-community we need to penetrate," he says

 Talk to kids about their lives: Ask teens who their friends are, where they hang out, what they do. Show up unannounced. Get to know their friends' parents and compare notes. Ask hard questions and don't settle for flip answers, advises Reverend Dwight McKissic of the Cornerstone Baptist Church in Arlington.

"Hold your kids accountable for their time," he said. "They'll be less likely to engage in (fighting) if they're headed to Yale, rather than jail."

Sources: USA TODAY research, Arlington Police Department.
 
 
 
 
  PROBLEM ACROSS THE NATION
 
The teen fight club ring targeted by police in Arlington, Texas, is among several cases of organized teen fighting discovered this year by authorities across the nation. Among the others:
Tacoma, Wash. ? In July, a 17-year-old student from Emerald Ridge High School pleaded guilty to unlawful possession of a weapon and attempted assault stemming from a videotaped beating of a fellow student, says Detective Ed Troyer of the Pierce County Sheriff's Department. The teen posted a video of the incident to MySpace.com, which led to his arrest. Staring into the camera, he racked a round into a pump shotgun and asked: "Any of you all want to play with me?"

The teen was expelled from school and sentenced to 50 days incarceration in a juvenile facility (which he's currently serving), 50 hours of community service and one year of probation. He also was banned from MySpace and forfeited all his weapons, Troyer says.

His accomplice, who filmed the beating with a night-vision lens, was expelled and faces fourth-degree assault charges. Another 25 students identified from the tape were suspended from school.

Lumberton Township, N.J. ? In February, police detained four middle-school students, age 12 to 15 years old, for alleged disorderly conduct. One student was accused of instigating a fight between two other kids and posting a video of the fight on MySpace.com, police chief Marc Sano says.

Anchorage ? In January, 17 students at Dimond High School were suspended for participating in, or watching, a videotaped fight. The group changed the location of the fight repeatedly to try to elude police.

However, Anchorage police got a copy of the tape and identified the participants. The two fighters, enrolled in the 10th and 11th grades, were suspended from school for nine days. The 15 spectators got three-day suspensions.

The staged fight was the third such incident during the last four years in the Anchorage School District, says executive director Mike Henry, who oversees 16 schools and more than 15,000 high school students.

Students promoted the fights through word-of-mouth, e-mails and text messages, Henry says. One time, they handed out fliers in school, he says.
 
 
 
 

By Michael McCarthy, USA TODAY
ARLINGTON, Texas ? The video shows two bare-knuckle brawlers brutally punching each other until one slumps, beaten, to the ground. The fight doesn't end there: The victor straddles the chest of his fallen opponent, firing rights and lefts into his face.
This is not a scene from the Brad Pitt movie Fight Club. Instead, it involves real teenagers in an underground video called Agg Townz Fights 2. Their ring: the grassy schoolyard of Seguin High School here. They're engaged in a disturbing extreme sport that has popped up across the nation: teen fight clubs.

ON DEADLINE:Your thoughts?

This year, authorities in Texas, New Jersey, Washington state and Alaska have discovered more than a half-dozen teen fight rings operating for fun ? or profit. These illegal, violent, often bloody bouts pit boys and girls, some as young as 12, in hand-to-hand combat. Some ringleaders capture these staged fights with video or cellphone cameras, set them to rap music, then peddle homemade DVDs on the Internet. Other fight videos are posted on popular teen websites such as MySpace.com and YouTube.com.

Some bouts are more like bare-knuckle boxing matches, with the opponents shaking hands before and after they fight. Others are gang assaults out of ultra-violent films such as A Clockwork Orange, with packs of youths stomping helpless victims who clearly don't want to fight.

"When you watch the video, you're appalled by the savagery, the callousness, the lack of morality," says James Hawthorne, deputy police chief of Arlington's West District, who's leading a crackdown on fight clubs. "This is an indictment of us as a society. It's not a race issue or a class issue. It's a kids issue."

Many fight-club brawlers are suburban high school kids, not gang members or juvenile criminals. Chase Leavitt, son of U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt, was arrested for participating in a fight club at a Mormon church gym in Salt Lake City in December 2001, when his father was Utah's governor.

The younger Leavitt, then 18, pleaded guilty to disturbing the peace and trespassing in September 2002 and was sentenced to 40 hours of community service, says Sim Gill, the chief prosecutor of Salt Lake City who handled the case.

According to Gill, Chase Leavitt laced up boxing gloves and punched it out with a 17-year-old opponent at the church, which is in an affluent neighborhood. Organizers handed out fliers advertising the fight. About 100 students from Leavitt's East High School paid admission before cops raided the premises. As the teens fled, they dropped a video camera with footage of several bouts that night.

"This is not something that just happens in poor neighborhoods," Gill says. "This crosses all socioeconomic bounds. It's happening in middle-class and upper-middle-class environments."

Secretary Leavitt and Chase Leavitt declined to comment, referring calls to attorney Loren Weiss. He says Chase Leavitt was "prosecuted for who he was, not what he did."

Fight clubs tap into a dark, nihilistic "part of the American psyche fascinated by the spectacle of blood and violence," says Orin Starn, cultural anthropology professor at Duke University who teaches about sports in American society. "This does seem a phenomenon of the Mortal Kombat, violent video game generation. The fight club offers the chance to bring those fantasies of violence and danger to life ? and maybe have your 15 minutes of fame in an underground video."

Chuck Palahniuk, author of the cult 1996 novel Fight Club that was the basis for the 1999 movie, declined an interview request but said, "God bless these kids. I hope they're having a great time. I don't think they'd be doing it if they weren't having a great time."

Fights in public, in daylight

This middle-class community of 360,000 residents between Dallas and Fort Worth is the home of baseball's Texas Rangers and the Six Flags Over Texas amusement park and the site of the Dallas Cowboys' planned football stadium.

Sitting in his office on a hot Texas afternoon, Hawthorne shakes his head as he watches the two-hour Agg Townz 2 (slang for Arlington) video, featuring teens mostly from Arlington and the neighboring town of Mansfield punching, kicking and stomping each other.

Hawthorne points out that many fights on the tape take place in daylight on pleasant, tree-lined streets with brick homes and well-tended lawns. One fight turns into a mini-riot with dozens of teens rampaging through the parking lot of a McDonald's restaurant. Another running brawl spills into a busy city street, where the fighters slam up against rolling cars.

In almost every fight, there are dozens of teens cheering on the pugilists or snapping pictures. Sometimes their schoolbooks are spread out on the lawns. In one scene, an adult holds the hands of a toddler who watches a fight as if it's another street game. In another, teens watch the tape as entertainment at a party like a music video.

During the most gruesome footage, one falling fighter strikes his head on a sidewalk and is knocked unconscious. While the defenseless teen's arms jerk spasmodically and his eyes stare upward, his opponent continues to belt him in the face. As the injured teen is dragged away, his head leaves a bloody smear on the curb.

Police here learned about fight clubs after Kevin Walker, 16, was jumped and kicked in the head outside his grandmother's house March 11, suffering a brain hemorrhage and other injuries. Arlington police arrested the producer of the Agg Townz series, Arlington resident Michael G. Jackson, 18, and five of his friends, ages 14-19.

Hawthorne says the group would pay teens a few bucks to fight, or attack other youths, then film the violence with video or cellphone cameras. Jackson edited the footage, set it to rap and sold two volumes through his own website for $15-$20 each. The footage of the Walker attack (seized by cops as evidence and never released) was part of a third volume Jackson was working on when he was arrested, Hawthorne says.

On Thursday, Jackson and three other adult defendants were indicted for aggravated assault on Walker and engaging in organized criminal activity, both felonies, says Jennifer Tourje, assistant district attorney for Tarrant County. They face possible penalties of two years' probation to 20 years in a state penitentiary if convicted of aggravated assault and five years' probation to 99 years in prison if convicted of engaging in organized criminal activity. Both charges also carry possible fines of $10,000, she adds.

Hawthorne has asked the IRS and the state comptroller's office to investigate whether Jackson paid taxes on his DVD sales. Several parents of injured teens are considering civil lawsuits against Jackson, Hawthorne adds.

In Arlington, fight-club participants can be arrested on several felony and misdemeanor charges, including aggravated assault, fighting in public, engaging in organized crime and criminal mischief. Texas law allows police to arrest active spectators as accomplices to fighting in public. As part of the crackdown that began May 10, cops have made 40 arrests, including Jackson and his friends, and issued about 200 citations involving fighting in public or watching arranged brawls, police spokeswoman Christy Gilfour says.

In an interview with USA TODAY, Jackson confirmed filming fights and selling DVDs of them. However, he denies instigating fights or paying teens to take part in them and says he has shut down his website. Jackson says he simply saw a financial opportunity to exploit fights that were happening anyway.

"I just used my business-savvy mind," says Jackson, who's seen break dancing and flashing a wad of cash in the videos. He says he never participated in the fights, and he won't say how much money he made or how many DVDs he sold.

His Dallas-based attorney, Ray Jackson (no relation), calls the organized crime charge "ludicrous" and predicts his filmmaking client will become another Spike Lee. The lawyer adds that although the Agg Townz series has become a "cult classic," his client has not made money from it. Most DVDs in circulation are bootlegs from which his client did not get a cut of the proceeds, Ray Jackson says.

"This was low-end equipment and high-end talent," the lawyer says. "That's why it sold."

Messaging fuels combatants

Teen fight clubs have staged bouts on school campuses and in backyards, city streets, public parks, parking lots and gas stations.

Mac Bernd, superintendent of the Arlington Independent School District, says ringleaders have orchestrated fights the same way they do parties: through word-of-mouth, phone calls and text messages. Text-messaging enables instigators to inflame a minor dispute between teens at breakfast into a full-scale brawl by lunch. "You have an electronic rumor mill that moves at the speed of light," he says. That's why Bernd, despite the objection of some parents, is outlawing all telecommunications devices for the 2006-07 school year ? including cellphones, pagers, beepers, PDAs, digital and video cameras, MP3 and CD players and video games. The ban covers 74 schools with 63,000 students, including a half-dozen high schools with 20,000 students.

"We've concluded schools are for teaching and learning," he says.

Race does not appear to play much of a factor in teen fight clubs' bouts. Rita Sibert, president of the Arlington chapter of the NAACP, says the clubs include "a mix of all children, all races."

Most of those in the Agg Townz video are African-American. However, just a week after Jackson's arrest, Arlington police booked a group of 11 white teens and one Hispanic youth for fighting in public, Hawthorne says. A fight video made in nearby Grand Prairie shows mostly white teens, city police Detective John Brimmer says.

Silence surrounds participants

The fictional fight club led by Pitt's character, Tyler Durden, in the 1999 movie was made up mostly of men in their twenties who made a sadistic and masochistic sport out of fighting one another.

Durden's main rule for his club became the movie's signature line and a slogan in popular culture: You do not talk about Fight Club.

Teen fight clubs in Arlington often and elsewhere follow that advice, and police and school authorities have been frustrated by the wall of silence that has surrounded the clubs. Not one of the hundreds of parents who viewed clips from Agg Townz 2 at several community and church meetings seemed to have a clue that fight clubs existed ? or that their kids were involved, Hawthorne says. Among local teens, he says, the clubs have been common knowledge.

"It was a revelation for the parents," notes the NAACP's Sibert.

Bernd and other school administrators say most teens, even the ones absorbing the bloodiest beatings, refuse to roll over on fight-club participants for fear of retaliation by ringleaders or gangs involved.

The teen beaten into bloody unconsciousness in the Arlington video has not come forward and is still unidentified, Hawthorne says. Grand Prairie police have made no arrests in their case because no one has filed a complaint, Brimmer says.

Citing such secrecy, Bernd says he suspects there are more fight clubs operating under the radar.

"It's almost like the kids have created a completely different world we don't have access to and don't understand."

Contributing: Bruce Rosenstein
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AbsOfBrass
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« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2006, 09:53:54 PM »

One of the things that you can get a better understanding of from watching these types of things on video, is the astounding amount of non-verbal indicaters that the victims don't understand.

Anyone with bouncing or LE experience know what I mean. I'm talking more about the arguments or street harrasment clips that escolate into full blown assaults, not the pre-aranged fights.
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Dog Greg Brown
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« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2006, 10:38:21 PM »

That is a great way to put it. The majority of the population has no idea how to read the body language of a possible assailant. There are more that just a couple of ques that should set off the alarms in your head.
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2006, 01:28:37 PM »

Absolutely. Body language, even from a distance, should be a dead giveaway. Unfortunately, most people are completely oblivious. The experienced bouncers that I've worked with can usually spot trouble brewing way ahead of the curve. The newbies tend to be unaware until voices/fists get raised.

The headbutt clip is a perfect example of individuals having no idea what is going on around them. I find it fascinating how many people are just plain oblivious, even after the fact.

And I just came across this tidbit:

A significant cluster of body movements is used to signal aggression.

Facial signals
Much aggression can be shown in the face, from disapproving frowns and pursed lips to sneers and full snarls. The eyes can be used to stare and hold the gaze for long period. They may also squint, preventing the other person seeing where you are looking.

Attack signals
When somebody is about to attack, they give visual signal such as clenching of fists ready to strike and lowering and spreading of the body for stability. They are also likely to give anger signs such as redness of the face.

Exposing oneself
Exposing oneself to attack is also a form of aggression. It is saying 'Go on - I dare you. I will still win.' It can include not looking at the other person, crotch displays, relaxing the body, turning away and so on.

Invasion
Invading the space of the other person in some way is an act of aggression that is equivalent to one country invading another.

False friendship
Invasion is often done under the cloak of of familiarity, where you act as if you are being friendly and move into a space reserved for friends, but without being invited. This gives the other person a dilemma of whether to repel a 'friendly' advance or to accept dominance of the other.

Approach
When you go inside the comfort zone of others without permission, you are effectively invading their territory. The close you get, the greater your ability to have 'first strike', from which an opponent may not recover.

Touching

Touching the person is another form of invasion. Even touching social touch zones such as arm and back can be aggressive.

Gestures

Insulting gestures
There are many, many gestures that have the primary intent of insulting the other person and hence inciting them to anger and a perhaps unwise battle. Single and double fingers pointed up, arm thrusts, chin tilts and so on are used, although many of these do vary across cultures (which can make for hazardous accidental movements when you are overseas).
Many gestures are sexual in nature, indicating that the other person should go away and fornicate, that you (or someone else) are having sex with their partner, and so on.

Mock attacks
Gestures may include symbolic action that mimics actual attacks, including waving fingers (the beating baton), shaking fists, head-butts and so on. This is saying 'Here is what I will do to you!'

Physical items may be used as substitutes, for example banging of tables and doors or throwing . Again, this is saying 'This could be you!'

Sudden movements
All of these gestures may be done suddenly, signaling your level of aggression and testing the other person's reactions.

Large gestures
The size of gestures may also be used to signal levels of aggression, from simple finger movements to whole arm sweeps, sometimes even with exaggerated movements of the entire body.
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Dog Greg Brown
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« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2006, 05:43:11 PM »

That can't be more true. I don't allow guys to start training on the door until they can be in the club and not watching the room and still be in control. It is something else to see someone who has been bouncing for years deal with people. They can read people so well. They can tell almost instantly if they are going to be a problem. But all of those indicators are spot on for what you see. This usually applies to all the fights I see working. The exception is the almost weekly triad fights. Those are something else all together. gang fights are a scarier monster than most people realize.

Greg
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2006, 05:49:25 PM »

Woof Dog Greg:

Do tell please , , ,

CD
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Dog Greg Brown
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« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2006, 06:49:24 PM »

Well almost every week I get to see the normal drunk guys invading each others personal space wich turns into the obligatory pushing match that morphs into the sterotypical drunk hay makers.

Or as far as it goes with fights involving staff, it is more of a fear reaction, One drunk guy is confronted by someone asking them to leave because they have had a bit too much to drink, and for some reason they decide it is a threat and they will yell and either go out just posturing or they decide it is a good idea to fight.

Triads, this is a bit more complicated. About 6 months ago they started and asian themed hip hop night. With 3 weeks you have rival Viet/khemer/Laos gangs fighting over territory. Those are a bit different. Ususally ending in street violence  with belts/knives. Occasionally you hear the gun shots a couple of min after they get off the street.

Working down there I have been witness to a half dozen stabbings, large scale (20v20) street fights, and belts being pulled into play etc.

In the knife altercations, only one of them was one v one with both parties knowing full well what was going on. everything else has been ambush techniques. one being one guy starts a fight with 5 they eventually get the upper hand and then scatter as he comes up with a knife in his hand ala norman bates, they scatter and he takes off running. Another one happened when we where breaking up one of the triad fights and my manager was holding one guy down, his friend comes walking down the street draws the knife and gets my manager in the back.

These events have without a doubt been a huge influence in my mindset when knives come into play. No matter what you think it is never the guy you see that you have to really worry about. Enviromental awareness is one of the keys to staying alive when "the fickle finger of fate" puts the spotlight on you.

The mindset that has been instilled in me through my exposure to Guro Crafty, has brought me home safe on more than a couple of times. And for that I am forever grateful.




Greg
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SB_Mig
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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2006, 11:21:37 AM »

This vid was just posted by Tom Furman under "Die Less Often". I thought it would be perfect for Real Fights as well.

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/vids/knifekilling.wmv

Another example of what can happen when you don't pay attention to your surroundings.
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Guard Dog
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« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2006, 01:52:34 PM »

And all the more reason not to assume that someone is just going to punch you.  The whole "always assume they have a weapon" would have helped in this situation.


Gruhn
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Ryan “Guard Dog” Gruhn
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2006, 04:35:16 PM »

Quote
Absolutely. Body language, even from a distance, should be a dead giveaway


By watching the video you see the perp winding up as he approaches and the victim doesn't even turn his head to look, I would like to think he would have survived if he had turned his head to see and possibly his arms up in a defensive posture.

 To me it is a reminder to aware of what is going on around me. I think some awareness would have really helped this poor guy, I mean it appears to be after-hours in a mall like area. Three people are approaching, possibly having a loud conversation, the perp had no logical reason to come near the victim there is plenty of space for him to walk around without having to come near.  Usually if Im sitting in a place like that or at the beach late at night in Waikiki and people are approaching from the side I usually look at the person and nod. Some people believe that just by making eye contact it acts as deterrent.

Anyone know the outcome of this video, were the cowards caught and convicted?
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"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed
SB_Mig
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« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2006, 05:24:17 PM »

From the BBC News:

Two men have been found guilty of taking part in a random attack on two students, in which one was killed.

Daniel Pollen, 20, and friend Andrew Griffiths were waiting for a lift home when they were attacked in a "70 second frenzy" in Romford, east London.

Daniel died from a stab wound to the heart. Timmy Sullivan, 19, from Barking and Michael Onokah, 25, from Ilford, were convicted of wounding with intent.

Both were cleared of murder - a charge already admitted by a 17-year-old.

Both the victims had been out celebrating Mr Griffiths's 20th birthday on 8 July 2005.

They left at 0220 BST to wait to get a lift from Mr Pollen's sister in the Brewery shopping centre in Romford, when they were attacked by the three men.

Mr Griffiths, from Chigwell, Essex, was punched in the face and head and was stabbed.

The friends had been waiting for a lift home

Mr Pollen, from Buckhurst Hill, Essex, had his jaw broken and was stabbed in the heart - he never regained consciousness.

Even after a three-week trial, it was not clear why they were attacked, said Det Ch Insp Dave Brown.

Mr Griffiths, a medical student at Durham University, described the attack as a "70-second frenzy".

"At the time of the attack, Dan and I were just sitting, chatting and laughing remembering our holiday and talking about my 20th birthday celebrations," he said.

"We had just enjoyed a night out in Romford with our friends and were waiting for a lift home from Dan's sister when we were attacked.

"Seconds later Dan was dead. I still can't believe it."

Sullivan and Onokah, both painters and decorators, were cleared of murder but convicted of wounding with intent and causing grievous bodily harm.

A 17-year-old youth from Stratford, who was 16 at the time of the attack, has already pleaded guilty to murder and grievous bodily harm with intent.

All three are due to be sentenced on 23 June.
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2006, 05:36:47 PM »

Thanks for the follow up.
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Dog Robertlk808
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« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2006, 05:43:55 PM »

Thanks SB_Mig, Im curious to know what the perps said during the trial.  Random acts of senseless violence is always disturbing.
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"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed
SB_Mig
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« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2006, 10:58:50 PM »

Can't seem to find any trial testimony or perp explanation though I did find the following:

A teenager has been jailed for life for the unprovoked and frenzied killing of a student and an attack on his friend. Michael Lynch, 17, was told he would serve a minimum of 15 years by the judge at London's Woolwich Crown Court.

Lynch, of Stratford, east London, stabbed 20-year-old Daniel Pollen, a Southampton University medical student, in Romford, Essex, on 8 July last year.

Outside the court, Mr Pollen's parents, Terry and Josie, called for tougher sentences for knife crime.

"We leave court today trying to rebuild our lives, with only the treasured memories of Daniel," they said in a statement.

Mr Pollen was killed as he and his friend Andrew Griffiths waited for a lift home.

Mr Griffiths was seriously injured in the unprovoked attack.

He said after the case: "Because of a knife my life will never be the same again, they have taken my best friend from me."

Lynch's co-accused, Michael Onokah, 25, of Ilford, and Timmy Sullivan, 19, of Barking, were each jailed for a minimum of five years for wounding.

"Mr Pollen and Mr Griffiths had done nothing to upset, antagonise or provoke any of you defendants"

Judge Shirley Anwyl QC told Lynch: "This was a co-ordinated, calculated attack that was as brutal as it was senseless.

She took into account Lynch's remorse, his low IQ and other personal problems in giving a sentence lower than the recommended minimum of 24 years.

Prosecutor Christopher Kinch QC said the sustained and co-ordinated piece of violence was "as brutal as it appears to have been senseless".

He said: "We are no nearer any clear explanation for the unleashing of that gratuitous violence on two entirely innocent young men," he said.


I wonder if "Dog" Kris Dunnage can shed any light on the situation?
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Blain
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2008, 05:26:12 AM »

Hi SB_Mig!

Yesterday I had an experience, wich automatically made me think of this:

Quote
1) As per Blain - verbally abusive. One of the best diffusers for drunks is a quiet, calm demeanor. I have yet to see an drunk respond to yelling with a smile.

2) Physically intimidating (getting in the face of) - The puffed chest, chin forward stance is just asking for a cold cocking, not to mention escalating.

3) Again as per Blain - Turning his back. This guy is lucky he didn't get hit earlier when he turns to look at the leaving couple (0:03). He then turns completely around (0:15) before blowing it again and engaging with a completely uninvolved patron (0:23).

4) Again per B. - Hands busy, attention elsewhere. Um, pull your hand out of your pocket and put out the cigarette, Einstein.

5) Distance - The doorguy is standing waaaaaaaaay too close for comfort.
Once he had the drunk walking backwards he should have stopped. That would give him a *cough* reason to "create space" when the drunk advanced again.

6) I would add complete disregard to the drunk's clothing and hands. It looks rainy out, but both the patrons departing and the one who walks up are in short sleeves. Why the bulky jacket, fella? The drunk has his hand on his blade at 0:11 in plain view of both. The knife may not be visible, but why is the drunk guy I'm trying to get rid of reaching into his pants?

The doorman I had to deal with (or rather refused to deal with after a minute or two) last night did all of the mistakes above except for 2) and I felt deeply tempted to tell him about it.  grin

Thank you once more for that lesson!

Blain
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Maxx
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« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2008, 11:38:03 AM »

Is this a place that we can post what happen to ourselves? Cause I had something happen to me not to long ago and I would like to post it. It's about body language, Sh#!Heads and My almost abilty to start trouble  sad
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Crafty_Dog
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« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2008, 05:47:13 PM »

Go ahead, we won't tell anyone  wink
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Maxx
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« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2008, 09:10:15 PM »

Ok..Here is the story

I had picked up my Lady and Daughter and we went to a local star bucks. As we parked 2 fat boys got out of a truck, smoking ciggs, talking over loud and were walking their way into star bucks. As they were walking up a Normal man and his Prego girl/wife were walking out and enjoying the weekend and these guys totally bulldog their way though the guy and his pregnant wife/girl. My Wife is getting my daughter out and notices me looking at them and she goes "Hunny" I said "both those fat F3&!@s need to get their asses kicked" Now Mind you I know trouble when I see it. I served with the Armies 10th Mountain unit ASScrackistan and in the end I could smell crap when I saw it.
Anyways,
We walk into Star bucks and there they are ordering drinks and acting loud and cussing about the prices… I can tell they are your typical over confident fat guys. My Family and me order our drinks and I carry my Daughter over to the seating away from the main fat guy and his over cussing about everything. I am sitting there playing with the two loves of my life and I notice noise coming out from some hole...My wife looks up, then looks at me...Then I look over and one of the fat bastards is saying something to me...I look at him and Go WHAT? He goes HEY, HEY you sling? I said what? He said Sling, Sling Ink? (Just for the record both my arms are covered in Sleeves) I said. NO...He said. Where did you get them., And in a tone I don’t like( The kind of tone where you know someone is either trying to start shit with you or trying to disrespect you. I said, Dude. In Rancho...He said” ok Rancho what? And how much and do you think you could get me a mother fucken hook up? (So now he is cussing at me and in front of my daughter.,.I said.. “Ok enough. I am busy man”. Then he got like angry face and I looked at him. And gave him the Dude...This is going to get ugly real fast look...Then his buddy gave me looks and started moving around my other side by my daughter and her Mom  And I thought..Ok..Now this is gonna get ugly cause this other guy is going to jump in. So now I think about my family in the middle, So I slide my hand kind of close to my blade...Now mind you. I don't look physically like a crap, So I think this is going To go one of two ways. The main fat boy is going To back down..Or they are going To rush me and I am going To have to go Kali (  wink ) on these two guys and get my family out of there…. So what happens..? I stand up to defuse the situation and like I thought. The main fat boy with the big mouth backs off. I am not saying I am the most threatening person on the planet but I know this type of guy that is trying to mess with me.
I stand up and say. Listen Man, I am with my family. Dig? He responds with Ya, we got to go.
As they shamble into the back of the shop and are putting cream into their coffee, I can hear the brave one of the fat f^$3Ks say low..If that punk was not with his family, I would have kicked his ass and his buddy say "I know you would have"..So my blood flares and I stand up..And I am just going to ran at this pile  and throw a flying tackle at him and choke his  face out before his buddy even knows what’s going on..My wife looks at me and just mumbles the words "Please" I was seeing red..I mean RED..Then my daughter who is two and some change said..Daddy, Daddy , daddy, daddy and started saying the alphabet song but instead of the letters singing it with the words daddy( all you fathers out there should know this song.It will break your trance at anytime. So I snapped out of it..And just went back to my mode..I watched these guys walk to their truck and I eyed them the whole way there..Praying one of those dudes looked back and flipped me off or came back in and gave me one reason to return to the red..They didn’t even look at me though the glass or mad dog me though the truck window into the shop. They bitched out and all they could do was mumble to each other how they would have kicked my ass.
We got in the car and my wife said.." Well,That could have really went the wrong way...
Anyways..Sorry for the long post but I had to join in and let this out.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 12:11:17 PM by Maxx » Logged

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