Dog Brothers Public Forum
Return To Homepage
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 02, 2014, 06:18:05 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the Dog Brothers Public Forum.
82696 Posts in 2251 Topics by 1062 Members
Latest Member: seawolfpack5
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  Dog Brothers Public Forum
|-+  Politics, Religion, Science, Culture and Humanities
| |-+  Politics & Religion
| | |-+  Politics
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 22 Print
Author Topic: Politics  (Read 148205 times)
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #450 on: January 07, 2011, 09:29:07 AM »

Doug, PC, BD, and Crafty,
Thanks for your input.  But none of you have really answered the question.

You all point out achievements.  What I don't get is, 'what is it about her or her skills or her methods that makes her so effective'.

Doug's comment,
"I guess they all have behind-the-scenes-skills"

And this goes to my question.

What are her skills.  Other than being a pushy full of shit ass I simply wonder what it is she does behind the scenes that makes her so succesful.

Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #451 on: January 07, 2011, 11:22:57 AM »

I guess it is leadership and persuasion skills.  It took amazing organizational skills to even get these really long bills written by staffers well enough to be acceptable to her majority caucus and to the negotiators from the senate to pass health care, financial regulations, cap/trade, etc. etc. in such a short time.  The ability to have skilled and motivated staffers working around the clock to get these done.  The ability to know exactly what buttons to push to keep a caucus of 200+ on the same page.  We keep calling it ObamaCare but it seems like it was staffers within the Pelosi camp who got all this done.

What she did not do is bring the American people with her.  Last March I fully expected (and so did she) that the wishy washy public would gradually flow over to their side and accept another great big government monstrosity growing into our lives.  Maybe the turn of the public without any leadership against this program was the real story of last year.  If health care was the holy grail, maybe they should have gone cautious and responsible with everything else as they slid it through, rather than all-out, round-the-clock leftism.
Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #452 on: January 07, 2011, 12:10:14 PM »

Pelosi: Democrats Lost House Because of ... Bush!
"We still would have lost the election because we had 9.5% unemployment. Let's take it where that came from. The policies of George W. Bush and the Republican support for his initiatives, tax cuts are for the wealth, recklessness by some," Minority Leader Pelosi told CNN.

It is stuff like this that has me scratching my head.  There are a lot of Democrats who I disagree with but who do not say just utter nonsense and seem to have everyone behind the scenes terrified of her.  I can't believe it is just a wonderful "bedside manner" behind the scenes.

It must be mobster style politics with a LOT of powerful financed supporters.  Like play ball and we will get you the bribes to your constuents and send you money for your re election and get the money for the federal funded highway thru the district where you own real estate, or else we will reveal that you are downloading child porn, visiting prostitutes (that were set up for you by me "friends") or have a nice IRS audit of your accounts, etc.

There must be alot more than meets the eye.

Where is the journalism???  Or are they all in the tank or bought off too?



Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #453 on: January 07, 2011, 12:26:55 PM »

Woof,
 The elite libs are absolutely sure they have all the answers and know what's best for the world and things like facts or the truth are just minor nuisances that they talk their way around. Nancy is very good at this, at least to the point where folks that know better aren't dragging them out into the street and flogging them and the rest either believe her or don't care. As for the media they just play along because most are owned by elite libs and their journalist aspire to be elites themselves. They all masquerade as defenders of rights and freedom when actually all they want to do is dictate and impose their will on mankind.
                                          P.C.
Logged

ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #454 on: January 07, 2011, 01:24:14 PM »

PC,

"elite libs are absolutely sure they have all the answers and know what's best for the world and things like facts or the truth are just minor nuisances that they talk their way around"

Excellent point and how you expressed this.  They know best for the world and are going to shove it through no matter what.  They are adept at bribing just enough voters to keep them in power.

It is up to Repubs to be able to convince at least some of the Dems, particularly minorities, that crats are hurting them in the long run if buying them off in the short run.

I am convinced that if Bama cannot get some sort of DREAM act or something like it AND if he loses in 2012 he will definitely pardon the illegas during the lame duck period.   He will have nothing to lose at that point and his socialist agenda can then be rammed through with hordes of predominantly new voters who are more than happy to vote for us to pay for more of their benefits.  Alternatively, he will do it in a second term.  I have no doubt.
Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #455 on: January 07, 2011, 01:30:12 PM »

PC,

"elite libs are absolutely sure they have all the answers and know what's best for the world and things like facts or the truth are just minor nuisances that they talk their way around"

Excellent point and how you expressed this.  They know best for the world and are going to shove it through no matter what.  They are adept at bribing just enough voters to keep them in power.

It is up to Repubs to be able to convince at least some of the Dems, particularly minorities, that crats are hurting them in the long run if buying them off in the short run.

I am convinced that if Bama cannot get some sort of DREAM act or something like it AND if he loses in 2012 he will definitely pardon the illegas during the lame duck period.   He will have nothing to lose at that point and his socialist agenda can then be rammed through with hordes of predominantly new voters who are more than happy to vote for us to pay for more of their benefits.  Alternatively, he will do it in a second term.  I have no doubt.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31326


« Reply #456 on: January 07, 2011, 01:58:29 PM »

Soros/MoveOn.org and connected pieces of that conspiracy have taken over much of the Democratic Party.  IMHO Pelosi needs to be seen in that context.
Logged
JDN
Power User
***
Posts: 2004


« Reply #457 on: January 07, 2011, 02:12:39 PM »

I'm convinced that if Bama cannot get some sort of DREAM act or something like it AND if he loses in 2012 he will definitely pardon the illegas during the lame duck period.   He will have nothing to lose at that point and his socialist agenda can then be rammed through with hordes of predominantly new voters who are more than happy to vote for us to pay for more of their benefits.  Alternatively, he will do it in a second term.  I have no doubt.

How can he do that?  Or should I ask, What does that accomplish?  While I suppose he can grant a "pardon" for crimes committed in the past, it is my understanding that he cannot grant legal status, i.e. a Green Card to an illegal alien.  Therefore they would still be "illegal aliens". 
Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #458 on: January 07, 2011, 02:14:21 PM »

Woof,
  Lib's have infiltrated both Parties and all levels of our government that's why it no longer works for the people but instead has been turned into a puppet that can be manipulated for the benefit of politicans. That's why we have unsecured borders and 12 million illegal aliens living here without fear of being deported in the first place in other words by simply not enforcing our laws they are already living the dream act! He doesn't need to do anything it's already been done. tongue
                                                     P.C.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 02:46:33 PM by prentice crawford » Logged

ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #459 on: January 07, 2011, 02:48:46 PM »

Therefore they would still be "illegal aliens". 

Well good question.

 I am thinking about Reagan pardoning and granting amnesty to the hordes that were here in the 80s.  Now there are five times more here (at least).

My undestanding is the President has the power to grant amnesty or pardon criminals (of Federal Law?).

So if bamster pardons them they may not be automatic citizens but sure enough they are no longer "illegal".

Notwithstanding some liberals are trying to twist common sense on its head and lose the term illegal and call them undocumented.

"He doesn't need to do anything it's already been done."

True point.  I think though a pardon would even make the path to citizenship a moot point.  I guess I don't know the legal technicalities involved.




Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #460 on: January 07, 2011, 03:01:16 PM »

Woof,
 Well that's where another infiltrated branch of government the Supreme Court of the U.S. will come into play; eventually they'll rule that being a citizen isn't necessary to vote and that everyone here has a Constitutional right to be represented and thus has the right to vote just like they have a right to everything else here; education, heathcare and so on. Besides, it's already happening on the local level for non citizens here legally. www.wickedlocal.com/brookline/features/x128164711/Proposal-would-allow-non-U-S-citizens-to-vote-in-Brookline-local-elections                                                             P.C.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 03:15:01 PM by prentice crawford » Logged

bigdog
Power User
***
Posts: 2165


« Reply #461 on: January 07, 2011, 03:15:00 PM »

Some information on pardons:

Time Magazine's (sorry) 10 most controverisal pardons: http://www.time.com/time/2007/presidential_pardons/10.html

A political scientist discusses the Office of the Pardon Attorney (pp 13-18): http://www1.law.nyu.edu/lawcourts/pubs/newsletter/spring08.pdf

A statistics of pardons, from Presidents Truman to Obama.  Pay special attention to Clinton's last day pardons of Marc Rich, Roger Clinton, and Susan McDougal, accessed from a link on the page. http://www.justice.gov/pardon/recipients.htm

Guidelines for seeking a pardon: http://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardon_instructions.htm

Limits on the president's power to pardon: approaching zero; constitutionally, only those who are impeached cannot be pardoned. 
Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #462 on: January 07, 2011, 05:25:07 PM »

BD, Nice post on pardons.  Seems unfair but I still like the concept that there is some avenue available to right a wrong.  The worst I think are the last day or lame duck pardons especially with the perception they were about selling influence rather than administering justice.  Framers did not envision a Lincoln Bedroom or that the power could be transferred to the First Lady's brother. Ford pardoning Nixon made sense that he (allegedly) believed it in the best interest of the nation, he exercised a recognized power, and then the voters  exercised theirs - out he went.

Note that the top 10 list did not include 'Reagan's grant' of conditional temporary resident status because the IRCA 1986 was an act of congress, signed by Reagan, not a Presidential pardon: http://www.oig.lsc.gov/legis/irca86.htm.  Interesting footnote was that Sen. Kennedy voted against the 1986 law because (I would guess) that the conditions were unacceptably restrictive. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/23/washington/23amnesty.html.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 05:29:34 PM by DougMacG » Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #463 on: January 07, 2011, 05:42:54 PM »

Prentice,  Illegals voting is outrageous.  So is having the Census count them as residents for representation.  Go one step further: The safe havens that attract and protect them but don't let them vote receive disproportionate representation for themselves.
Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #464 on: January 08, 2011, 09:18:18 AM »

Woof,
 Not to mention the over counting done in homeless shelters where they estimate how many people stay there and they just assume your here legally and that your a citizen then the shelter down the road, counts the same people. As you know the homeless move around from shelter to shelter and then on top of that they will get counted again by census workers that hunt them down on the street. Some of them are being counted four or five times. tongue
                              P.C.
                                             
Logged

prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #465 on: January 08, 2011, 02:24:28 PM »

Woof,
 Some recent history on Congress woman Giffords (D) AZ, and update on her being shot today... it's a sad day.

www.blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2011/01/05/2742426/gabrielle-giffords-votes-against-nancy-pelosi

www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/08/arizona-congresswoman-reportedly-shot-public-event/

 There has been some postings on yahoo and other sites calling for Tea Party members to be killed on sight. Nice! tongue

                P.C.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 02:33:50 PM by prentice crawford » Logged

prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #466 on: January 08, 2011, 02:40:50 PM »

Woof,
 More detailed update..

 www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/08/20110108arizona-giffords-brk.html

              P.C.
Logged

prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #467 on: January 08, 2011, 03:37:09 PM »

Third post

Woof,
 By the end of this article you find out that Congress woman Giffords has been threaten by both far Right loons and far Left radicals. Or shouldn't both be called racial loons period!? angry

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40978517/ns/politics/?gt1=43001

                    P.C.
Logged

prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #468 on: January 08, 2011, 03:57:46 PM »

Fourth Post

Woof,
 They are saying this nut job did it...

 www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/jared-lee-loughner-gabrielle-giffords-shooter_n_806243.html

               P.C.
Logged

Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31326


« Reply #469 on: January 08, 2011, 04:30:44 PM »

Seriously deranged , , ,
Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #470 on: January 08, 2011, 05:55:52 PM »

6 dead including a 9 year old girl, 18 injured, short range in a crowd.  Should not need DNA or expert testimony, nor should his reasons matter.  I would like to see him tried and hanged by sundown before others can copy.  Whatever his motive or message is, this should not earn him a soapbox to tell it.

We (who survive) will live our lives in and out of metal detectors and cameras with emptied water bottles because of nutjobs like this one.
Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #471 on: January 09, 2011, 07:06:08 AM »

Woof,
 Some on the Left are already trying to use this to slam Conservative radio and cable talkshows, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh and so on. The Pima County Democrat Sheriff, Clarence Dupnik wasted no time in blaming Conservative talk shows and those evil haters that want our immigration laws enforced and the border secure, for this shooting. The Left never wastes a crisis that they think they can turn into a political attack and smear campaign. Talk about vitriol tongue

      http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/01/pima-county-az-sheriff-clarence-dupnik-blames-az-political-culture-for-shooting-video/
                            P.C.

 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 07:12:15 AM by prentice crawford » Logged

Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31326


« Reply #472 on: January 09, 2011, 09:13:46 AM »

The Media & The Shooter

Posted by Erick Erickson (Profile)

Sunday, January 9th at 6:00AM EST

48 Comments
“The tea party movement won in November. Winners don’t go on shooting sprees.”This morning we pray for Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, her family, and the other victims of the heinous violence in Arizona.

It should not be, but the media, under the guise of “a full exposition” of the evil in Arizona, is back to subtly and not so subtly pinning the blame for the attempted assassination of the Congresswoman and the related shootings on the tea party movement, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, me, you, and everyone right of center.

Let’s be crystal clear: this is the supposedly objective news media doing this, not the openly, partisan left, though it is fueling the media witch hunt. And from what we now know, it is not just media malpractice, but a lie.

Ironically, by perpetuating the lie — by even treating it as a legitimate topic of consideration to revisit the accusations of violence and hate the media tried to run with prior to the November election — that the right and the tea party incited this evil act, the left and media may very well incite violence against the right.

Today, the Sunday Shows will all be from Arizona. There will, I have no doubt, be many of them wanting to know if “rhetoric” and “tea parties” and “opposition to Barack Obama” did this.

They will also bring up, as they did yesterday, Sarah Palin putting Gabrielle Giffords on her target list for defeat with a rifle scope symbol over her district.

Here is what will either not be brought up, or if brought up, will only be mentioned in passing.

Markos Moulitsas of the Daily Kos, the largest left-wing community online, put Gabrielle Giffords on a target list with a bullseye. Just as Sarah Palin removed her post, Markos has removed his.  Another Daily Kos writer, just the other day, penned a post saying Congresswoman Giffords was dead to him.

But then there is the real culprit — the shooter himself.  A friend of the shooter’s described the shooter as decidedly “left-wing” as recently as 2007.  On YouTube, he flagged as a favorite video one of a person dressed as a terrorist burning the American flag. Only a lunatic or a leftist would do that.  His favorite work was not a Glenn Beck book, but a staple of every left-wing bookshelf, the Communist Manifesto.  In the Communist Manifesto, there are numerous, frequent calls for violence against the bourgeoisies.

Left-wing cartoonist Ted Rall’s most recent book calls for a violent response from the left against the right.  Barack Obama himself told left-wing activists, “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.”

The point of all of this is not to blame Ted Rall, Mr. Obama, Media Matters, MSNBC, any other particular person or group on the left, or the left in general. It is also not to say in any way, shape, or form that the guy is of the left. If, however, we take the evidence as presented and not as the media and left would have it presented, the shooter very clearly is not of the right.

More precisely, the shooter is neither left-wing nor right-wing. He is crazy and evil — a word not used enough. The guy is very clearly not of the tea party movement, not a Dittohead, not led by Sarah Palin, me, or anyone else on the right.

But the media, at least as of this morning and its accumulated coverage so far on this matter, could not care less. The media is intent on yet again exploring right-wing rhetoric and tea party hate. Left-wingers yesterday were falling all over themselves to blame everyone on the right for the horrific shooting.

The media today, as it begins more expansive reporting, will not let the facts get in the way of making the right, yet again, responsible for violence it neither incited nor enabled. In the process, the media’s credibility will continue to shrink.

By the way, as an exit thought, the tea party movement won in November. Winners don’t go on shooting sprees.

Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #473 on: January 10, 2011, 10:33:08 AM »

"We (who survive) will live our lives in and out of metal detectors and cameras with emptied water bottles because of nutjobs like this one."

And now the calls from our brave elected officials to pass more laws for their protection.

We don't need any more laws.  It is reasonable for major security for the President but we have enough laws already for them IMO.

Last night on 60 minutes was the segment on the mayor of Santiago, Mexico who was kidnapped and killed because he refused to play ball with the local drug terrorists.
Now there is a hero!   Can you imagine any of our brave lawmakers in this country truly risking their lives to fight drug terror?  All the brave Mexicans who are trying to fight the terror they live with everyday because of the cowards and punks in this country who sell and do drugs.

Real courage is choosing between "silver and lead" as they are forced to do in Mexico.

Logged
bigdog
Power User
***
Posts: 2165


« Reply #474 on: January 10, 2011, 10:39:21 AM »

Westboro Baptist Church To Picket Funerals Of Arizona Shooting Victims

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12057


« Reply #475 on: January 10, 2011, 10:39:54 AM »

Aside from showing signs of serious mental illness, the AZ shooter was a 9/11 truther. Although, that too may well be a symptom of serious mental illness.
Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #476 on: January 10, 2011, 11:23:00 AM »

Woof,
 The Left is gearing up for a full scale attack on free speech via Conservative radio and cable talk shows and already has in hand a number of prefab Bills to push for more gun control laws. Laws that if in place before would not have prevented the sick acts of this individual. The Left and the media cease to amaze me in their willingness to slosh through the blood of victims so they can exploit these sick acts and the highly emotional atmosphere so they can exploit the moment to futher their Leftist agenda, smear their opponents, and get ratings and profits at the same time. Of course they fail to address the failure of our mental healthcare system and the fact that the Left and ACLU are more concerned with the rights of insane people than they are the majority normal citizens, I don't see any change coming soon. The media also ignores their role in giving a huge public stage and glorious coverage for these sick killers to playout their insane acts and actually encouraging and helping the next nutjob do the next massacre bigger and better.  tongue
 Go to www.senate.gov and www.house.gov to find out who your Senator or Representative is, then call 202 224 3121 and ask for their office. Tell them not to let the emotion of this sick act be exploited for the purpose of taking away our freedoms and liberty.
                                          P.C.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 11:25:45 AM by prentice crawford » Logged

ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #477 on: January 10, 2011, 12:13:50 PM »

Olberman worked on his usual day off over the weekend to immediately turn this into a rant against the evil right.

The fact that the killer appears to have had more politically in common with *his* opinions will of course be ignored.  I don't suppose he will get on the air and state he should tone down *his* rhetoric or of course try to pin the blame on himself.

A lot of people are angry in this country.  And with good reason.  Those to the right of the spectrum will not be silenced.

Like Doug posted, lets try, convict, and execute this murderer the one and only one responsible (as far as we know at this point) for murder.


Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #478 on: January 10, 2011, 12:48:56 PM »

Prentice, Excellent story regarding the armed tackler. Tragic that someone prepared like him wasn't standing closer when it happened. 

Bigdog: Like hollering Fire in a crowded church, that group deserves no protection for that behavior IMO.  I hope  intent to incite criminal violence and terror acts like this is a crime.  If not I would start by revoking their tax exempt property status.  Then they can spend their time, like the rest of us, having to work to pay property taxes, before they travel to celebrate brutal acts of terror and carnage.  http://www.snco.us/Ap/R_prop/Listing.asp?PRCL_ID=0973503030001000

Whatever law enforcement tools we want to come down hard on extreme Islamic organizations supporting terrorism, same should apply to these religious phonies.  They were an annoyance and an embarrassment when they celebrated the deaths of our heroes killed overseas.  But this is direct support of criminal and terror acts IMO right here at home and Guantanamo might be a better setting for their protest.

If political view is the question (it isn't), both the fake church and the screwed up activist sound more to me like the Reverend Wright's "God Damn America" and "America's Chickens...have come home to Roost!" than it sounds like anything I heard in a tea party speech or Christian sermon: 'Peace be with you'.

GM: "showing signs of serious mental illness". I too would look mostly at the 5 inches between his ears for what went wrong, not the political movement or obsession of the moment.
Logged
bigdog
Power User
***
Posts: 2165


« Reply #479 on: January 10, 2011, 01:41:11 PM »

DougMacG: While I appreciate the First Amendment a great deal, I like the idea of the revocation of the tax exempt status.  I have no love for Fred Phelps, but I am looking forward to the USSC's opinion on the anti-protest legislation. 

(One small quibble: remember that the lack of protection by the First Amendment is FALSELY yelling fire in a crowded theater.  If I am watching a movie, and there is a fire, I for damn sure want to know!)

I have spent my lunch hour discussing this situation with two anti-gunners.  It did take them 2 minutes after I walked into the lunch room for the discussion to begin.  The backlash is quick. 
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12057


« Reply #480 on: January 10, 2011, 01:44:59 PM »

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

Dialog.
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12057


« Reply #481 on: January 10, 2011, 02:16:50 PM »

Doug,

As much as my blood boils every time I see the Westboro douchbags, were they going to Gitmo, the left would have you, me and many others from this board on the next flight after them.
Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #482 on: January 10, 2011, 03:38:03 PM »

From Michelle Malkin's piece and explanation of "tu quo quo":

Tu quoque
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is about the logical fallacy. For the historical quotation "Tu quoque, Brute, fili mi", see Et tu, Brute?. For the play by John Cooke, see Greene's Tu Quoque.
 
A case of Tu quoque: "By Jove, what extraordinary headgear you women do wear!"—ironic reference in PunchTu quoque (pronounced /tuːˈkwoʊkweː/ [1]), or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a kind of logical fallacy. It is a Latin term for "you, too" or "you, also". A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's viewpoint on an issue on the argument that the person is inconsistent in that very thing.[2] It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[3]

Contents [hide]
1 Illegitimate use
1.1 You-too version
1.1.1 Legal aspects
1.2 Inconsistency version
2 See also
3 References
 

[edit] Illegitimate use
In many cases tu quoque arguments are used in a logically fallacious way, to draw a conclusion which is not supported by the premises of the argument.

[edit] You-too version
This form of the argument is as follows:

A makes criticism P.
A is also guilty of P.
Therefore, P is dismissed.
Examples:

 :"He cannot accuse me of libel because he was just successfully sued for libel."
Person 1: It should be illegal to make clothing out of animals.
Person 2: But, you are wearing a leather jacket.
Person 1: Never smoke cigarettes. It is a terrible addiction.
Person 2: I just saw you smoking a few minutes ago.
[edit] Legal aspects
In common law, a legal maxim exists stating a person cannot approach the courts of equity with unclean hands. If there is a nexus between the applicant's wrongful act and the rights he wishes to enforce, the court may not grant the applicant's request. To illustrate, if a landlord breaches a term in a tenancy agreement and then issues an eviction notice to the tenant for the tenant's breach of a term in the tenancy agreement, the law might permit the tenant to stay because of the landlord's own breach of the tenancy agreement.

This argument has been unsuccessfully used before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in several cases when the accused tried to justify their crimes by insisting that the opposing side had also committed such crimes. However, the argument tu quoque, from the basis of international humanitarian law is completely irrelevant, as the ICTY has stated in these cases.[4][5][6][7]

Historically, however, at the Nuremberg trial of Karl Dönitz tu quoque was accepted not as a defense to the crime itself, or to the prosecution proceedings, but as a defense only to punishment.[8] Otto Skorzeny and officers of Panzer Brigade 150 successfully used tu quoque evidence at the Dachau trials to be acquitted of violating the laws of war by using American uniforms to infiltrate Allied lines in the false flag Operation Greif in the Battle of the Bulge.

[edit] Inconsistency version
This form of the argument is as follows:

A makes claim P.
A has also made past claims which are inconsistent with P.
Therefore, P is false.
This is a logical fallacy because the conclusion that P is false does not follow from the premises; even if A has made past claims which are inconsistent with P, it does not necessarily prove that P is either true or false.

Examples:

"You say aircraft are able to fly because of the laws of physics, but this is false because twenty years ago you also said aircraft fly because of magic."
Senator Smith: It is important that we all vote for this legislation.
Senator Jones: You just said last week that voting for it was a bad idea.
[edit] See also
Pot calling the kettle black
And you are lynching Negroes
Unclean hands
[edit] References
^ Random House Dictionary
^ Bluedorn, Nathaniel (2002, 2003). The Fallacy Detective. pp. 54. ISBN 0-9745315-0-2. 
^ Logical Fallacy: Tu Quoque
^ Judgment of the Trial Chamber in Case Kupreškić et al.. (January 2000), para. 765
^ Judgment of the Trial Chamber in Case Kunarac et al.. (February 2001), para. 580
^ Judgment of the Appeals Chamber in Case Kunarac et al.. (January 2002), para. 87.
^ Judgment of the Trial Chamber in Case Limaj et al. (November 2005), para. 193
^ Yee, Sienho (2004), "The Tu Quoque Argument as a defence to International Crimes, Prosecution, or Punishment", Chinese Journal of International Law, 3, p. 87-133.
[hide]v · d · eFallacies of relevance
 
General Absurdity · Accident · Ad nauseam · Argument from ignorance · Argument from silence · Argument to moderation · Argumentum ad populum · Base rate · Compound question · Evidence of absence · Invincible ignorance · Loaded question · Moralistic · Naturalistic · Non sequitur · Proof by assertion · Irrelevant conclusion · Special pleading · Straw man · Two wrongs make a right
 
Appeals to emotion Fear · Flattery · Nature · Novelty · Pity · Ridicule · Children's interests · Invented Here · Island mentality · Not Invented Here · Repugnance · Spite
 
Genetic fallacies Ad feminam · Ad hominem (Ad hominem tu quoque) · Appeal to accomplishment · Appeal to authority · Appeal to etymology · Appeal to motive · Appeal to novelty · Appeal to poverty · Appeals to psychology · Appeal to the stone · Appeal to tradition · Appeal to wealth · Association · Bulverism · Chronological snobbery · Ipse dixit (Ipse-dixitism) · Poisoning the well · Pro hominem · Reductio ad Hitlerum
 
Appeals to consequences Appeal to force · Wishful thinking
 
Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #483 on: January 10, 2011, 03:55:23 PM »

BD, Thanks for the reminder/clarification on the theater exception.  You still may get out better if the people closest to the exits would calmly whisper why they are leaving and to pass it on.  smiley  We just removed more than 63 congress people without shooting, so the violence message here is also false.  Especially false to claim validity to murdering a young girl.  

GM,  I thought of that and fear an overreaction too.  I will reconsider my proposals as this unfolds. I write with the confidence of knowing no one ever takes my advice and I assume there already are plenty of laws.  If you aim and wrongfully kill it is murder. If you advocate killing a federal judge, from a position of authority, pretending to represent God and church, then that is a crime or could be construed that way if it in fact happens(?)  But shooting into a crowd and killing any and all until you run out of ammunition is terror, and we are fighting terror on many fronts.  We decided to fight it pre-emptively because there is no effective alternative.  Cheering on a senseless acts of terror and openly and seriously encouraging more of it is not religion or protected free speech (from this armchair amateur untrained jurist).  It is not synonymous or analogous to expressing strong views on issues or using war or death analogies in sports or political competitions or in humor or casual speech.  I may not trust our government to draw the line, but there is a line.  Hiding behind a church or a Mosque is what our enemies do.  I have visited many churches and this is not what they teach or how they attained a protected status in this country.
Logged
Crafty_Dog
Administrator
Power User
*****
Posts: 31326


« Reply #484 on: January 10, 2011, 04:00:11 PM »

CCP:

I liked that; a shame to have it lost here in this thread , , , maybe somewhere on the S, C, & H forum too?
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12057


« Reply #485 on: January 10, 2011, 08:15:13 PM »

CCP,

I don't think there has been the same level of venom from the right that there has been from the left. They spent from 2000 to 2009 setting the bar with "Chimpy-Bushitler" rhetoric, then scream that mainstream conservatives are preaching hatred now.

Thus far, the only voices the AZ shooter seems to have been listening to were in his head.
Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #486 on: January 11, 2011, 09:59:11 AM »

GM, I agree.  What amazes me is how the MSM makes it sound like the anger on the right is all being driven and stoked by talk radio and Fox, etc.
Quite the contrary.  I don't think many who listen to these shows are really that influenced.  I think most of the listeners are *already* the choir.  They are listening because they already have come to the same conclusions and we all tend to seek those who validate our views.

For example,  I have come to the conclusion that Bamster does not inherently like whites, Jews, or America.  I did not come to this conclusion after listening to talk radio.  I listen to talk radio because they have concluded the same and I listen to vent.  The left strategy is to belittle and deligitamize this frustration every way possible.  They decrie that it is "fringe", "hate", "bigots", "crazy" (birthers  angry), or misguided (Obama is really a moderate angry).

Even Joe Scarborough was essentially blaming Fox talk radio, Palin, Beck this AM.
I used to like that guy.  I don't know what has happened to him in his apparent quest to be seen as a moderate and fit in over there at MSNBC.
He must be having an affair with that broad.  What's her name?  The one who is the daughter of the ugliest national security advisor (to Carter- no less) we ever had in government.

I guess the only question remains is how is Bamster going to play this.  Probably his script is already written for him ala Clintonesque, "I feel your pain" and he will show "leadership" and avoid politics (let others do that) and triangulate.  The MSM will be adoring, drool and go orgasmic again, with quotes like, "this is what he ran on".

I guess I should be glad to have the President do that but frankly I am not because I know this guy is a radical dressed in sheeps clothing.

After being conned for years with Katherine's music by everyone and anyone I know a con (usually) when I see one.

Now that he doesn't have huge majorities in both houses to ram through his agenda he has ultimately been pulled kicking and mumbling towards the center by those around him who are desperately trying to keep him popular and relevant for 2012.

It is no accident the MSM made it a policy to show us how he read a biography on Reagan over his break in Hawaii.  No matter how hard they try this guy is no Reagan.
Yet the swing voters as I have pointed out are easy fodder for manipulation and persuasion and they will fall for all this as they always do.  You can fool some of the people all of the time.
Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #487 on: January 11, 2011, 03:05:20 PM »

The shooter was a registered independent who didn't bother to vote in 2010 (and Giffords opponent was a tea partier!), hardly following the right wing in lock-step.  http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/house/jared-lee-loughner-was-a-regis.html  His grudge with Giffords was that she blew off his question a few years ago: 'What is government if words have no meaning?'.  His friend says he said back to him, 'Dude, no one's going to answer that,' http://liten.be//AE3ip

Inspiration for the shooting? Friend says: "I think the reason he did it was mainly to just promote chaos. He wanted the media to freak out about this whole thing. He wanted exactly what's happening. He wants all of that." Tierney (the friend) thinks that Loughner's mindset was like the Joker in the most recent Batman movie: "He wants to watch the world burn."

Blaming right wing radio or politicians is strange considering he didn't vote and more interested in drugs and video games that in Palin or Limbaugh or anyone else.  Can't speak for the psycho-blockhead but I know my anger at government and Washington is exactly the same if I listen to Rush L or CBS News, Air America or All Things Considered.  CCP nailed it, the anger inside comes from what the opposition is doing not from what the host is saying. You listen because it resonates.  My radio has been off for months and my anger is the same. The most effective parts of all those shows are when they play politicians, especially opponents, in their own words, in full context.  Horrible time to blame a victim, but another idea is stop encroaching on liberties and negligently running our country if you want less anger in the country.  Everybody who was awake last Nov. saw that anger and revulsion reached the majority, not just psychos and 'paid entertainers'.  The well meaning congresswoman knew, from her own interviews, that healthcare 'reform' was the biggest invasion of our privacy in our country's history.  

The DLC had targets on their map back when Palin was still registered as a Wasilla housewife with the FEC.  They should be accusing her of trademark infringement, not murder incitement.  http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171

Again, the CAUSE of the shooting is found inside this psycho's brain.  This was obvious when he kept shooting after hitting the target of his obsession, if not sooner.  He rode a cab to the event (Does one way cash fare sound familiar?) because (IMO) this was a suicide killing.  He expected to be shot after a few of his shots and no one showed up with a gun until after his jammed and was wrestled away.

Excellent insight of P.C.: the calm responsible decision making of the concealed carry holder (see 'armed citizen' post) was quite impressive. An innocent man who had gotten to the murder weapon could easily have been shot in the chaos of the moment.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 03:07:45 PM by DougMacG » Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #488 on: January 13, 2011, 07:11:09 AM »

Woof,
 The situation with the conceal carry guy and the bystander with a gun is a teachable moment. When the police or concerned citizen with a gun runs toward the sound of gun fire, when they get there they are looking for the guy with the gun and if you are a bystander that picks up the shooters gun or if you are a conceal carry person and draw your weapon to stop the active shooter, there is no halo over your head designating you as the good guy. Plain clothes officers, undercover officers and citizens intervening in these situations have been killed by both, police officers and other citizens who mistake them for the threat.
  BTW, I think President Obama gave a fine speech at the memorial last night. The Native American blessing was rather odd, it just seemed out of place; no disrespect meant on my part, my grandparents where Native American and I'm very proud of my heritage, it was just strange for this event but so was all the cheering and cat calls; Brett Hume, on Fox News said much the same.
                        P.C.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 01:42:47 PM by prentice crawford » Logged

ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #489 on: January 13, 2011, 02:01:49 PM »

"BTW, I think President Obama gave a fine speech at the memorial last night"

Did you notice he repeatedly did the lower lip thing like Clinton?  I never saw Obama do that before.  It was staged to portray emotion.

He tried to be more postive about America like Reagan yet show emotion like Clinton.

I suspect this means he is going to do the triangulation thing like Clinton and pretend he is more like one of us (in order to change us).

This worked quite well for Clinton whose approval ratings rose overnight and never went back down.

If I am right and Obama does this he too will win over the swingers and his numbers will likewise rise well above 50%.

Therefore unless the Republicans can come up with a winner who doesn't look like a dead fish and do promotional Brittany Spears and Viagra commercials like the respectable but very uncharismatic guy in '96 - we are looking at 4 more years of the Bama.
Logged
prentice crawford
Power User
***
Posts: 775


« Reply #490 on: January 13, 2011, 03:00:50 PM »

Woof ccp,
 I agree that his numbers will rise after this speech but his reelection hangs on jobs and if he can't improve in that area then even a dead fish will beat him in 12.
                     P.C
Logged

DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #491 on: January 13, 2011, 04:40:52 PM »

This piece makes an and powerful observation about the shift in congress.  Not just ideology, but geography of influence is changing.  The more urban group's power is diminishing, Nancy Pelosi from San Fran, Charlie Rangel from Harlem, Ellison of North Minneapolis, John Conyers of Detroit, Waxman from L.A., Barney Frank - Boston.  Coming into greater power are people from further out in America's heartland, like suburban Cincinnatti, Richmond, Bakersfield, Twin Cities' suburbs, Janesville, etc.  A Harvard ecucated lawyer from Madison out, a businessman from Osh Kosh in.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47167.html

The heartland Rises
Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #492 on: January 13, 2011, 06:04:38 PM »

Doug,

I sure hope you are right.
I made the mistake of turning on MSNBC last night and I heard someone mention that Presidents giving memorial speeches goes back to Gettysburg!  Only could MSLSD compare a couple of people killed by a crazy man to Gettysburg.   And yeah right Bamster's reading of a script, for what, a half hour is the same as Lincoln's hand and self  written few minute speech done to honor war dead, and explain the reason for a war is even remotely comparable.

The service became a political rally when Obama came in.
Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #493 on: January 14, 2011, 10:40:43 AM »

I caught Karl Rove being interviewed this am on Fox being asked (by that fox - what is her pretty name again?) about Bamster's being advised and obviously going to the middle.
I think Rove is in denial about it.  He said it is still a question as to whether the Bamster's heart is in it or not.
The answer is of course it isn't.  But his advisors are obviously winning the argument.  Evidence in support of this conclusion include the triangualtion speech at the memorial ceremony, the "centrist" (Rove's own description for) Daley for WH chief of staff, the deal with Republicans over the taxes etc.

This is exactly what I feared.  Bamster will pretend he is a moderate, pretend he loves American ("be all we can be"), pretend he is standing for us. The "swingers" who always decide elections in the national races will forget or not care what he did to us the first two years and will fawn all over him as though he was like this all along.  Clinton proved that is what happens.  It is a joke that swingers who cannot make up their minds what they want are the ones who decide our futures but that is the case.

Time will tell for sure but I guess Krauthammer is right that Bamster having just made it *more likely he will win* re election in 12 than not.  Though I completely disagree with him that it is because he is so smart.  He is just the front man reading the scripts.  It is the advisors around him, particularly the Clintinites who have been so adept at this.  And the MSM loves it.

Why the ONE walked into the room and she opened her eyes for the first time - give me a break.
Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #494 on: January 14, 2011, 12:29:52 PM »

CCP, One difference is that Clinton started by running as a centrist.  In 1992 Democrats saw themselves as  electoral college losers.  Other than 4 failed years of Carter all they could remember for a generation was 20 years of Nixon twice,Ford, Reagan twice and Bush, and were up against a somewhat competent, hugely experienced incumbent.  Clinton was the head of a group positioning to be electable centrists.  Liberalism was known to fail in 40 states for Dukakis and 49 for Mondale.

For Clinton it was all about Clinton.  For Obama I think it is all about moving the nation and the policies to the left.  He was the no. 1 liberal in the senate and running in the context of the 2006 sweep and still running against a damaged George Bush (not on the ticket).  What Obama is experimenting with now is a series of head fakes, not moves.  With the first few they have no affect because people know him.  He talked about growing private sector jobs but grew the public sector instead for example.  He cut the big tax deal but had nearly no choice except wait and cut a worse one.  Talked offshore then banned more offshore etc.  Right now no one knows how far he will go with his head fakes, but his point in keeping power and popularity is to further implement what we call leftism, not to move to the middle. (MHO)
Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #495 on: January 14, 2011, 02:48:52 PM »

"Right now no one knows how far he will go with his head fakes, but his point in keeping power and popularity is to further implement what we call leftism, not to move to the middle"

Doug,

The phoney one ain't fooling me or you or anyone else on this board except maybe JDN ( grin), but it is the swing voters who I worry will fall for the coordinate effort between Bamster's new people (Daley - a banker no less) and the jornolists in the media who will try and make  them beleive he is a centrist, he is a moderate and anything else is a myth made up by the looney right.

There were a lot of people cheering for him the other night.  They can't all be Democrat teachers who make up most of the Dem conventions.  Did you notice the lower lip being pushed up frequently?  Clinton did that all the time to con us into thinking he really was feeling pain in his gut.  There are obviously enough voters who are that stupid.
Logged
G M
Power User
***
Posts: 12057


« Reply #496 on: January 14, 2011, 03:16:00 PM »

Watch the oil prices, stagflation and worse unemployment to undo the centrist charm offensive.
Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #497 on: January 14, 2011, 03:38:39 PM »

GM,

If that is what it will take to be rid of this guy then it is for our own long term collective good as a nation that the next two years see all of that on your list.

It is *that crucial* we get rid of this guy IMO.

The leader of the free world cannot be a con artist.
Logged
DougMacG
Power User
***
Posts: 5971


« Reply #498 on: January 14, 2011, 04:06:00 PM »

CCP, Agreed.  The R-House needs to get good bills passed that can make it through a more centrist senate and sent to a leftist President that will call him out exactly on this question, head fake or move, on as many key issues as possible.  If he moves to the center, the country benefits and so do his reelection chances.  If he vetoes and holds a hard left line, he is exposed for what he still is coming into reelection. And if the bills are lousy or unpopular or don't make it through the senate, he gets cover.  

I didn't watch the memorial; I hear he was at his best.  He has a gift of delivering scripted oratory, but he has worn out his gift of muddling issues and positions.  I don't think he can regain that magic.  His future success in politics will rely on a real move to the center and having weak opponents.  His free pass with the media is only partly a free pass with the media.  They had it partly going again with this comeback kid stuff at the lame duck.

I do business in the black inner city.  He will win 95% of that vote again, but not with magical turnout or excitement levels this time.  Nothing has changed or improved there whatsoever, same old, same old.  They went from once a year to twice a year emergency assistance, temporarily with stimulus money - that is the ability to move around and get a free month's rent, and easier food stamp qualification, but unemployment is worse and education, behaviors and attitudes are all the same as any other recent time.  Businesses and jobs are not moving in, start ups aren't starting up.  Having tried this and failed (hard left governing and the excitement of a half black President) is worse for Democrats politically than not having tried it.

Large numbers of highly educated suburbanites still lean left, but again, the magical sway he had with true independents there is gone.  He will have to earn every vote.  States like Ohio and Florida are lost for him at this moment with a short time to recover.  It has been 80 years since R's held more representative seats at the state level.  That shift happened on his watch.

p.s. Oil prices today and tomorrow are the fault of this crowd and the cowardly RINOs who joined them over the last 10-20 years, unless you believe that high energy prices destroying the capitalist economy is a good thing. Many including Obama believed that in opposition but now he stands accountable for (lousy) production and employment in our economy.  His Columbia and Harvard educated brain needs to get around the idea you don't get to have it both ways, a highly functioning economy with no energy production or usage.  Subsidized green jobs, cash for clunkers, buying auto makers, setting mileage standards out of reach, blocking ANWR, offshore, nuclear, Presidential visits to battery plants, blocking the growth of the grid, criminalizing CO2... these do not constitute a successful economic plan.
Logged
ccp
Power User
***
Posts: 4097


« Reply #499 on: January 14, 2011, 04:16:26 PM »

Doug and GM,
Reading your posts is reassuring.  cool I hope you are right.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 22 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!