Dog Brothers Public Forum

Well said.

Ah yes, the eternal question ...... how to close?
What does 'corto' do if it can't get past 'largo's' tip?
What does 'largo' do if 'corto' gets past that tip?

Aaah, the early Seagals .... those were the days. I think I prefer "Above The Law", though I also have a strange fondness for "Marked for Death" and of course Tommy Lee Jones makes "Under Siege" worth the wait for the last knife fight.

Shuai Chiao.
Beijing training: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ljqiIaHHb7g
John S Wang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFVZwi8w5jQ

Short notice, but John S Wang will be in Santa Barbara this weekend teaching a series of classes. Info: http://www.emptyflower.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2691

Maxx,"....... I think I need to take my Toyama Ryu Remei Honbu and we should battle!"

I'll go get my Hakama!! ....though I'm sure I'll get thrashed as I only started class a couple years back, and yes, I'm still practicing.

Bruno,
What a fascinating combination of martial training you have. I have seen a little of a Venezuelan martial art using machete, perhaps it was similar to Garrotte?
I suspect I will not be making it to the DBMA camp, but if you ever find yourself a little further north here in the Bay Area, please be sure to let us know!

Thanks!
I was curious how shortening the handle changed the way the weapon came to be used.

Well, i finally dragged my ass into the 21st century and posted on Youtube . I have not learned as yet how to edit .... working on that, so here instead is about 10 minutes of raw footage of a workout at Sonny's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CY00mHQI-g

When I was alot younger I had an Equestrian teacher who had been a Major in the British army. He must have been born in the 'teens or '20s, and had been one of the few British officers to complete the Italian Cavalry School training, apparently quite a feat.
He had served with the Gurkhas and had many stories of their fierceness and bravery. The one I remember had a Commanding Officer asking for volunteers to fly in low, jump from the aircraft behind enemy lines and complete some kind of mission. Only a handful of Gurkhas raised their hands which was most unusual as normally they would all volunteer. On asking why, the officer found out that the they thought they would be jumping without parachutes as he had forgotten to mention them!! Still, a handful were willing to go!

New one from the director of Ong Bak: "Chocolate".
Like they say "No stunt double, real injuries" ...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OGjUyu9c8Ng

Before his passing, Maestro Sonny Umpad asked me to teach his system, and though I suspect I will not have to deal with this question at the level that you do, it is still something I have thought about.
Quote:
 "Still this leaves the question of how to teach the things which are not for everyone.  As I have discussed previously (see e.g. our clip “Rambling Ruminations on Knife) training knife for application, as versus the Artistic/Ritual flow drills, disarm patterns, etc., can call to something very dark that sleeps within us and that once awakened in unsound people it can lead to tragic choices in pivotal moments.  Indeed it seems to me quite likely that this is why many FMA teachers go the artistic route—the physical knowledge is transmitted, but cannot be readily activated without certain keys of understanding."

Maestro Sonny Umpad had seen "the dark side" and understood very well the implications of the knowledge he possessed. He was very aware that he could pass on skills to save life as well as, potentially, to take life. This is obviously why he taught privately out of his home, vetting potential students before taking them on, and even then watching for undesirable changes in those he chose to teach.
Interestingly I learned pretty much everything I know about tactics, human psychology, weaponry and 'dirty tricks' from him. Perhaps the equivalent of the 'keys of understanding' you mentioned? So he wasn't averse to sharing his experiences and knowledge when he thought it appropriate.
I believe Sonny's method of dealing with this dilemma was different from the norm, it was to focus on EVASIVE skills above all else. (DLO ?!)
Learning first and foremost how to 'not get hit' , or at least improve the odds, created a very different mind set than learning the '9/12/20 slashes of death' or whatever.
Targeting, weapon manipulation, follow-through etc were all mounted to this evasive foundation but were only added according to the maturity level of the student.
His basic message was, learn how to get away, not how to kill. If getting away entails harming another, then so be it, but understand the consequences.
One of his many great gifts IMHO was his ability to push peoples emotional buttons to see what was underneath, and hence how much he was willing to teach them.
He used many ploys: He would back you into corners to bring out aggression, go full speed with a slightly blunted machete, sending sparks flying by your head to bring out fear, he would tag your hands over and over and over again, for hours (or so it seemed!) to bring out pride, or sometimes he'd use me as a 'ringer' to flow with potential students, having me progressively hit them more and more to see how they would react to getting hit by a girl, to bring out ego!!
It was fascinating watching him work.
Anyway, your post got me thinking about this again, and recalled to me his most common answer to the question "What's my focus today"?
The first answer, always: "Don't get hit".

I'll have to check this movie out. Truly MMA! Nice defensive and offensive sections.

FYI there are a couple new clips up of Sonny training students on the "video clips of interest" thread, posted today.

Peregrine, your drawing and dry firing made me think of knife throwing from a draw.
Maestro Umpad said for a while he used to throw a knife at a target the first thing when he awoke every morning, to focus his mind. It might fit nicely with recovery sleeping..... If you are worried about damaging things in the house when you miss, just sharpen up some kebab sticks or skewers....

Hi Tom,
Yes I do like "The Hunted", though I would probably put that in the "partial" category.  The knife fight near the end is cool, but I have to confess the "hold on a minute whilst I fashion myself a blade over the campfire as I wait for my adversary" made my eyes roll a bit.

Peregrine,
"The Mechanic" is awesome. Great ending!!
I'll check out "Sha Po Lang", I like Donnie Yen. Apart from his Asian movies, he has an all too short sword fight in "Blade 2" which is also neat.

Here's the first one I came across:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvi54YLYIC0&feature=related
Nothing wrong with it, though nothing particularly innovative. I guess the tiresomely predictable sound track and an endorsement from "Batman" kinda negated any positive feelings I had about their actual training ideas ..... OK, I liked the focus mitt stuff.

Tonite we dine in Cleveland!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3CRE9kFRvo

Frank Allen has a great workout space on the Lower East Side. I have trained with him on occasion and his "Fighting For Health" class is a blast.
A few years back when I was at class, Verne "The Bulldog" Williams was there watching and giving tips on boxing which was very cool. Frank is a mine of information about all kinds of martial arts, history and meditation aswell as being a great story teller. Well recommended if you are in NYC.

Aah this is going to be an interesting thread....
SB_Mig said: ....(and we do this why?), said in the context of learning the meaning behind the movements in TMA.
That, to me, just about sums it up.
WHY you do what you do is the reason behind all the traditional teachings, and generally the thing that is lost first before an art stagnates and dies.
In times past it REALLY mattered if something worked or not. Martial arts schools were not esoteric places back in the day, they hired themselves out to protect caravans from bandits and to whoever else would pay. Villagers/ Tribes learned to protect themselves from adversaries and the rich and powerful kept guards to protect them from ambush and assassination....and to do it to their enemies.
Obviously weapons figured largely, bladed and otherwise, and challenges and dueling were common.
Today we live in a society where it is "inappropriate" to test your skills to their fullest extent, so TMA are faced with a question of how to train and pass on meaningful learning that is difficult to use and test in real life?
If the teacher does not understand strategy (...and we do this why?), how is an art ever going to mean anything to the next generation?
My teacher maestro Sonny Umpad taught by directly teaching strategy. In fact he said " I am not teaching you, I am showing you what I do". He did not want you to copy him, he wanted you to take what he did and make it yours by understanding the "why" behind his movements. You learned by getting hit (alot!) until you understood why and how to prevail.
I suspect one reason that MMA is so much more popular is that it is actually "testable". Is Contender A better than Contender B? Well, let's see....
Obviously MMA still has rules to follow, and sometimes the ability to endure getting hit figures much greater than fluid skill, but I do think that the breaking down of the barriers between martial styles (striking/stand up/ground etc) found in MMA could breathe some fresh air into the dark corners of TMA and hopefully get some  interest in researching the "old ways".
"The Book Of 5 Rings" still sells today because strategy/ human psychology has not changed so very much in 450 years. If the "why?" stays connected to TMA I believe they will survive to grow and innovate, if not............

I started out watching this with the same reaction as you guys, and then I got to just watching the 'training partners" fall over, again and again. I reckon they did a pretty good acting job, so then I started wondering whether there could be something to it....?
I know you can effect the spine and nervous system by shocking it, like an internal whiplash, using 2 quick strikes in opposing directions, though i've never seen or felt anything as dramatic as in the clips, generally just a momentary freezing point to set up the next strike or whatever.
The knee strike clip is no mystery, just breaking the structure high low.

Just got forwarded this:  http://www.fightfreeview.com
Quite interesting.  Anyone know of this guy?
These shearing techniques are found quite alot in the "internal arts", though I'm sure they occur in other systems aswell. Clip #2 (found on the left of the page) with the 'spiral' leg strike is classic Bagua.

I've read this book more times than I can remember. It's very smart. The "way of strategy" does not seem to have changed much in the last 500 or so years and Musashi's ideas are still applicable today to zero-sum games.
He was known for wielding 2 long swords, but IMHO, directly relating the techniques he describes to double stick, or whatever, would be vastly underestimating the concepts that make up most of the book. As he says, if you "know the ways of men", the weapons become secondary.
I bet Musashi could do more damage with a plastic spoon than most people wielding a stick ... if plastic spoons had been invented in the 16th century..

Maxx,
My Toyama Ryu teacher is Sensei Mike Esmialzadeh. He trained for many years with Obata Sensei, from when he first came to the States, and is a high ranking black belt in this system. He has his own school here in Oakland CA. You can see their website at: Suigetsukan.org
I teach out of this school too (VCKE and Bagua), and because Sensei Mike E is also a teacher of Aikido, Jiujutsu and Inayan Eskrima he is fabulous to cross train with and get his insights into the connections (and differences) between different arts, ideas and cultures.

Yesterday was the last day of 2 full weekends (6 hrs per day) plus the week in between (3 hrs per evening) of seminars with my Bagua teacher Luo De Xiu of Taiwan. He is 52 years old. He worked out with us for the whole time, demonstrating forms and techniques constantly, so that he had personally worked with everyone in the room.
Being struck by him is like having an anaconda that has swallowed a lead pipe land on your body! The bruising on my arms and shins can attest to that, aswell as the neck and spinal adjustments i received from his demonstrations of his shaking/shocking power (used to create a gap if your opponent is well rooted or leaning on you) and the suei jiao type throws typical of the system.
He started practicing martial arts as a kid and has only ever practiced the Chinese "internal" arts - Tai Chi, Hsing-I, Bagua. Now concentrating mostly on Bagua. He fought full contact for many years, fighting those who came to "check out" his teacher's school and also in the Taiwanese National full contact tournaments.
He is incredibly strong, flexible and fluid in his movement aswell as being a funny, generous teacher who seems happy and well adjusted in his life. He likes the occasional glass of wine and a good cigar, and i swear he looks younger every year.....
At 44 years old myself I am definitely looking at how to evolve my practice and i think i have my role model because whatever he is doing is working!!

I got the go ahead from Guro Chris to post a little of his article about the Moro part of Sonny's system. I believe Guro Jay and others have more to add, but here is what he wrote:

     " Sonny’s Moro footwork is the subject of some confusion. Sonny told us it was based on the “Sayow Moro-Moro”, which is a classical Filipino dance. Others have tried to link the movements to the “Comedia”, or stage play of the same name. Some claim it is related to the “Moro-Moro” style Eskrima of Grand Master Telesporo Subing Subing. Sonny never met the master, although he expressed interest in this art. Some say these movements are called “linambay”, or “crab”, because of the proximity of the player’s body to the ground.

      Sonny’s Moro footwork basically consists of toes pointing out, movements started high and ending low. Also, it refers to the moving along in a low crouch in order to get under an opponent’s blows. The Moro crouch adds tremendous power and sweep to downward blows. When the player finally uncoils upward from the crouch, he is able to put his entire body behind the blow. The low crouching positions of the Moro footwork also allows the practitioner to disappear during combat by suddenly dropping out of the line of sight. This tactic can create openings and opportunities during a conflict.

      In addition to power, this footwork allows one to make a smaller target of oneself. Once, while working nightclub security, I was encircled by rowdy customers. When charged, I hit the closest, dropped into a Moro, and affected my escape. I came up behind the brawlers, and my backups and I were able to overcome the problem."


Hopefully the whole of Guro Chris's article will be published soon. We have been working on the photographs these past couple of weeks.

More to follow....