Dog Brothers Public Forum

DVD promo for Systema SpetsNa training
Found this on another forum with this intro from the poster:
"Russia's elite show how the young Speznatz squaddie correctly prepares himself for a night out ....." 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6mZtHL_8osU

Some good exercises for fluidity and mobility.

"Herpes gladiatorum"
BBC News article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7637982.stm

The security guard on the left was full on. 2 single punch KOs as well as some nice combinations.

Thanks C-Kaju Dog! Great advice.
"Violence of action, even if you throw someone into the mix against their will, they will be put into a possition to either distract the baddy or become an asset to you".
That's what I was going for - distraction or asset. Glad it makes sense to you, though I can see that you can't really rely on anyone in the end apart from yourself.....

This may seem unrelated, but I have been reading Erik Durschmied's book "From Armageddon to the Fall of Rome. How the Ancient Warlord Changed the World".
It's based on contemporary accounts of ancient battles, looking at the strategy and tactics of the leaders of the time.
What links the book to this thread for me is this idea of leadership, and how one person can have an affect on others and how humans react together as a group, either with great heroism against odds or to cut and run.
Perhaps that's why I am interested in this 'case study'.

I like the idea of "snatching someone up". Just grab em and go.
Perhaps 2 people becoming active (i.e. a change in the situation) would be catalyst enough to get others motivated, even if 1 of the 2 wasn't exactly 'highly motivated'?
How about direct eye contact, pointing, or commands - "You!" or "Move!" or "Now!"  or "Get Him!" ?
Seems like this kind of crisis situation knowledge would be valuable not only in this scenario but for any time when a group effort was required (natural disaster, accident etc).  Surely there must be some studies on this? I've seen studies on the bystander apathy part, but not on how to change it.
I guess the big question is, how do you turn passive inactivity to constructive activity when needed?

I learned to wear sunglasses and earphones in NYC to avoid unwanted attention. But no music and no sleeping, especially on the subway.

I would love to know what phrases work best on people to get them moving/helping etc. They say that yelling  "Fire!" works better than "Help!". Is that true? What about in this case - 10 people against 1 with a hammer ?
Have there been any studies done comparing how people react when different words are shouted? Would simply getting up and starting doing something motivate others to help, or would it take yelling commands? How about quietly enlisting help from the closest person ... "I'm going to X, You go round and do Y" ....
I suspect that the guy with the hammer would keep having an advantage if attacking each person in turn, and each person did not trust the next to join them in helping so no-one did anything. 10, 5 or 3 against 1 OK, but a series of 1 against 1 ... not so good. You need a group effort.
Any ideas?

Published: Wednesday, July 30, 2008

Monroe couple describe how they fought off armed man

By Jackson Holtz, Herald Writer
MONROE -- A few hours before Donna Angevine smacked an intruder in the head more than 20 times with a baseball bat early Thursday, she was sparring with her tae kwan do instructor.

He had to egg her on.

"Hit me," the instructor told her. Be aggressive.

The self-defense and martial arts training paid off for the Monroe woman, 45, when she and her husband, Roger Angevine, woke up to find a man in their bedroom.

"I'm here to rob you," they remember him saying.

Nearly a week later, the couple has stitches and deep purple bruises. Donna Angevine has a black eye. Her husband, 48, has a foot-long bruise on his side and a bite mark on his thigh.

The carpet in their bedroom, where the attack occurred, was removed. Police said the blood from the fight rendered it a biohazard and it needed to be destroyed.

The intruder is behind bars.

Taking a break from mowing their lawn Tuesday, the couple -- he's a retired business owner and she's a doggie fashion designer -- recounted their ordeal.

Roger Angevine said at first he thought maybe the intruder was a friend pulling a prank. He asked the man if he was serious.

"Does this feel serious?" the stranger said.

Angevine felt the sharp slap of a baseball bat against his torso.

The blow triggered a 15-­minute struggle.

The man ordered the couple, who were naked and unarmed, to the ground.

That's when Roger Angevine decided to fight back.

He tackled the intruder, hitting him with such force that he knocked the man's head through the drywall.

"My goal was to grab onto his wrists and hold on," Roger Angevine said.

An avid snowmobiler, Roger Angevine said he knows how to grip handlebars strong enough to save his life. Grasping the man's wrists was similar.

The couple was able to take away the intruder's gun and baseball bat.

"Hit him! Hit him! Hit him!" Roger Angevine yelled to his wife.

Again and again, Donna Angevine swung the bat at the man's head. She pleaded with him to stop fighting, but he continued.

"Please stop fighting," she said. "I don't want to hurt you anymore."

The fight went back and forth from the bedroom into an adjoining weight room. The two men wrestled while Donna Angevine kept swinging the bat.

At one point, the intruder bit Roger Angevine's thigh.

"That's actually what pissed me off," he said.

Finally, the intruder succumbed. The couple hog-tied him with belts and Donna Angevine sat on him until Snohomish County sheriff's deputies arrived.

"I came to make a quick buck," the man, 24, told police, according to court papers.

He said he walked from his Bothell home to the couple's residence at the end of a long private road in rural Monroe, the documents said.

"You have a lovely home," the man told the couple during the robbery attempt. "I thought you'd have lots of cash."

The intruder was hospitalized Thursday with a head wound. On Friday, he was booked into the Snohomish County Jail for investigation of first-degree burglary, first-degree robbery, second-degree assault and possession of a stolen firearm. He was being held Tuesday on $100,000 bail.

Police found in the man's backpack a knife, plastic zip ties, white nylon rope, black duct tape and a single roll of toilet paper, potentially for use in gagging his victims.

Roger Angevine said he finds it hard to believe someone would randomly stumble upon the house he and his wife built eight years ago. The intruder also seemed to know the layout of the house.

The man slipped in through an unlocked door, fetched a slab of bacon from the kitchen to lure the couple's three dogs away and found the bedroom amid the sprawling floor plan, Angevine said.

Snohomish County detectives continue to investigate the break-in. The Angevines acted in self-defense and will not face charges, officials said.

The couple said they're locking their doors and have beefed up their security plan.

They hope their ordeal will provide a cautionary tale to others.

"You can't rely on locked doors to stop a guy with a gun, baseball bat and a mission," Roger Angevine said. "You have to be able to defend yourself."

On Tuesday night, Donna Angevine said she continued her self-defense training at a session for women at Tiger Rock tae kwon do in Monroe.

"The guy just picked the wrong people to mess with," she said.

Reporter Jackson Holtz: 425-339-3437 or jholtz@heraldnet.com.
The Daily Herald Co., Everett, WA
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080730/NEWS01/114048324&SearchID=73327635441828

Lt MedTB:
The "Founding Fathers" seemed to have an appreciation of the weaknesses inherent in systems of power, building in the separation of powers and a system of checks and balances.
All words are open to interpretation, so it seems that it is the constant responsibility of any citizenry to stay engaged in this process of critical thinking; observing, evaluating, voting, dissenting - whatever is necessary.
Fear is a tried and true tactic to erode this independent thinking process, and I think it is worth stepping back and evaluating any large policy changes based on fear to see if they are rational or not, and to see if they are worth the cost.
e.g. "The bad people are a out there and a threat to you and your family. Unless we get the power to "X", we cannot guarantee your safety". True? Not true?

Fear is the easiest form of control (The evil doers are out there waiting to hurt you unless we.....). Those in positions of power have used it to force compliance for millenia.
How do you fix that ?
If laws are necessary for a society to survive, as are those elected to enforce them because of the baser qualities of human beings, what is the balance between personal responsibility and societal responsibility to check the predators, but also to check those supposed to protect us?
.....'the only thing to fear is fear itself'.....?

Blog from the UK regarding knives and crime.


Celebrating the knife

    * Mark Easton
    * 6 Aug 08, 02:45 PM GMT

This weekend in the French town of Nontron they are holding their annual Fête du Couteau - a celebration of the knife.

Poster for Fête du Couteau Knife lovers from all over Europe will descend on Périgord Vert to discuss blades with some of the world's finest cutlers.

Even in Sheffield where cutlery runs in the blood, it would be impossible to imagine such an event. The knife has become weaponised in Britain, stripped of all artistry and beauty.

As a Cub Scout in the 1960s I was given a knife by my parents to wear on my belt. It was one of the best presents I can remember; a bone handle with a long and razor-sharp blade housed in a tough leather sheath.

It was certainly dangerous but it was also significant: a sign that my mum and dad considered me mature enough to be trusted with such a tool.

Were I to do the same for my son today, I would be regarded as irresponsible and he might be regarded as a criminal.

The now ubiquitous phrase "knife crime" suggests the problem lies with the implement rather than the user. The contents of my kitchen drawer has become an arsenal. Evil lurks in the cutlery tray.

A few weeks ago, at the height of the knife panic, Gordon Brown was filmed chatting to some urban youth at a project in South London. "What do you think about an amnesty for knives?", the Prime Minister asked.

The tall young man in his hoodie was quick to point out the policy flaw. "What's the point of that?" he asked. "You'd just go and get another one."

I am hopeful that as we enter what some call the "silly season" (but I prefer to think of as the sensible season), the sense that we are living through a widespread epidemic threatening our daily lives will be replaced

by a belief that, while there are dangers in our society, the vast majority of us need not worry unduly.

I worry that the British media, including the BBC, must take some responsibility for a different epidemic - a phobia of street violence which diminishes people's quality of life.

The renowned criminologist Robert Reiner published some research a few years ago which asked whether the media's depiction of crime had changed since the war. In quantity terms, he found very little difference.

But the way criminal behaviour was described had altered significantly.

"The most marked trend in the reporting of crime over the half-century studied was the increasingly accentuated portrayal of crime as an all pervasive menace" he wrote in the journal Criminal Justice Matters,

"threatening ordinary people...and in particular harming exceptionally vulnerable individuals."

"The style of reporting shifts markedly", he concluded, "from a degree zero description largely in legal terms only, to the vivid accounts of the fear and suffering of the victims with whom the reader is invited to identify."

He compared two stories from 1945 and 1989. The first from the Daily Mirror reported the trial of a "strip-tease dancer" and an American paratrooper for the murder of a hire-car driver.

"What is striking from the coverage", wrote Professor Reiner, "are a number of absences: no account of the details of the murder itself, of the injuries suffered by the victim, or any fear he might have experienced."

The more recent story comes from The Times and was headlined "Martial arts fanatic gets life for killing daughter aged five: Girl died from a combination of pain, shock and exhaustion after vengeful beating."

"The pictures portray a smiling child, a sullen and sinister looking man and a weeping woman", Professor Reiner noted. "The story graphically details the fear and suffering of the girl, and undermines any excuse of

'bad temper' offered on behalf of the accused. The story is clearly victim-centred and demonises the offender."

"Crime stories fifty years ago took for granted that crime was wrong independently of whether suffering was inflicted on sympathetic victims. The burden of the story was to make the perpetrator comprehensible."

Academics in the USA have long been documenting a similar phenomenon there. In her 1980 book, Crime News and the Public, Doris A. Graber noted: "The mass media supply a large amount of data about specific

crimes. These data convey the impression that criminals threaten a legitimate social system and its institutions."

A 1998 Freedom Forum report included this observation: "Disproportionate and superficial coverage fuels public fear and anxiety, which then can cause politicians to overreact and pass unnecessary and costly

get-tough-on-crime laws."

In February 1999, an American Bar Association study on "Federalization of Criminal Law" criticised the US Congress for passing "misguided, unnecessary and harmful" anti-crime laws, for fear of appearing "soft on

crime."

I feel as though we have been living through an identical experience a decade later. Crime has been falling for over 12 years and yet our law makers have passed more than 50 Acts of Parliament to deal with public

concerns that it is getting worse.

Some of the legislation has been valuable, but there is scant evidence that all the new laws have contributed to making us safer. I suspect the constant focus on counteracting the crime menace has helped make us

all more fearful.

Will we ever again have the confidence to put on a British festival of the knife or give a Cub Scout a bone-handled blade?

I had the pleasure of training and exchanging ideas with Bruno for a few days last week.
It was absolutely fascinating, and also inspiring to be introduced to the relatively unknown art of Garrote Larense.
Bruno has had a vast and varied career in many diverse systems from around the world and has a great enthusiasm for all things martial, but the Garrote is something special.
To find an art that is a TRULY ambidextrous, BLADE based art is indeed rare, and to watch footage of the old masters gave me much food for thought, and got my mind working on all kinds of new training ideas
There seem to be many cross over points between the system I train (Visayan Corto Kadena Eskrima) and Garrote, which is not surprising since the primary weapons of each system are very similar, however, the flavor, the stances, the attitude, the training methodology are distinctly different. For this reason, the all too few days spent with Bruno were totally engrossing and I only wish there had been more time.
I look forward to the forthcoming DVD and appreciate the work Crafty and Night Owl are doing to preserve old knowledge and educate us about the rich weapons systems of the world.

Have any studies been done on the best way to get a random group of bystanders to do something useful in a situation such as this?
Trigger words? Tactics?
I'm sure I could have come up with something to do on my own, but it seems that strength in numbers would be better.... this reminds me of the first 'Grandfathers' speak' DVD and the interview with Leo Giron. He tells of how he started teaching again after hearing about a crazy guy that killed a group of women (nurses?), and how he believed the guy could have been stopped if they had had training and worked together.

More old Black and White:
http://video.mail.ru/mail//sverchkov.78/1/2.html
Russian? Sambo? Anyone read Cyrillic?

Ong Bak 2 Promo Reel: http://youtube.com/watch?v=3wMNQwF2Wk4

Peregrine -
The name of the thread is better this way as you are right, being relaxed AND prepared is the key.

I've taken a quote from Tony Torre from another thread to post here:
"........I think staying out of danger is largely a matter of knowing the "rules" and being aware.  With practice and experience I believe one can stay pretty relaxed because of their confidence in their ability to see trouble brewing.  It really is kind of rare to find truly spontaneous crime.  I know what you mean about out of balance people I've met many of them.  Funny thing is that these people because of their paranoia tend to attract the very things they claim to be trying to avoid.  I guess all that psychic energy being spent on day dreaming about boogy men blinds them to the real ones.  Another thing is that usually their body language screams out victim!"

How you grew up is obviously a big influence on how you view the world, as is your job and general life experience. So also is what, how and in what atmosphere you train.
Training can change you in adult life and can mitigate the effects of the other influences, though I guess it can go in both directions. The question of how to train is what personally interests me here because it can have such an effect.
I was very lucky to have a phenomenal teacher Maestro Sonny Umpad, a highly skilled eskrimador who believed that students learned best when their minds were open and therefore relaxed. He taught at a high level of intensity but with humor, and though I'm not sure how he did it, managed to instill in his students a tremendous sense of respect for the blade and it's lethal potential along with a real joy of playing eskrima. ( I love that you "play" eskrima ).
I would be very interested to hear any other thought/comments you guys might have regarding the role of martial training in the context of this thread.

David, I grew up in Europe also and am a huge believer in the power of humor and wit to create a peaceful society

Tony,
Oakland is just the most dangerous place I've personally spent any length of time in. I'm sure Miami wins, but having never been there it doesn't count for me!
As far as paranoia goes, sounds like you are pretty well balanced, but I have come across plenty of people in and out of the martial arts that seem to have trouble with this.
The 'trades' = construction, I'm a painter.

PS: Can you tell if they're really after me........?

David,
Thanks for the reply - some good points there.
Did you get a chance to read the 'karambit vs straight blade' thread? Some of the points you bring up appear there also.
I am about 5'6" and 145lb so most of my training partners are taller and out weigh me, and I have noticed that nothing levels the playing field like a blade. With anything else, the temptation to crash in is too large and then I am at a marked disadvantage for striking, clinching and choking. Even a baston is not perceived as a big threat, but a blade can cause enough hesitation to buy enough time to do what I need to do to get away/ dissuade the attack etc.
However, I would say that I really like the cane for self defense when all is said and done, and as I age intend to focus on this more!!
I also believe that accuracy and targeting are key for both blade and stick usage. That "lack of impact/feeling" you talk about is a problem with impact weapons also. A training partner of mine who is a cop talked of trying to subdue a 300lb crazy guy wielding a large knife. No one could close on him and nothing they threw at him, taser etc had any effect until some one aimed at his foot. He was wearing sandals and the hit he took to his toe was what finally brought him down!
My life is really not that dangerous so I don't walk around expecting 'evil doers' around every corner, however I do know that these things happen in any large, urban center so it is something I keep in the back of my mind. As to "cutting one of these people", well it's not top of my list of things to do, but for the reasons I have said, I would draw if I needed to. Perhaps that would be enough, perhaps not, but I would hope that enough of my training would come out that no body would end up dead.
I know my teacher avoided fighting on more than one occasion by flashing a blade, smiling, and saying something to the effect  "where have you been all my life.."!! (Breaking the OODA loop?)

The Donnie yen clip is in the "movie fights" thread. Very enjoyable.I particularly like the poke to the armpit (advantage of a longer weapon).

David, you said: 'This may sound crazy, but even against a knife I generally prefer empty hands over knife'.
.....You are indeed crazy .
For me, confronted with a knife, running away - excellent, own knife - good, a longer knife - better, 2 weapons - wonderful, any longer weapon, impact or otherwise - great, but give me a chair or a handful of rocks or something rather than CHOOSE to be empty handed against a blade.
Question: Why do you need your hands to be empty?
May I also recommend the "Karambit vs Straight Blades" thread: http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1619.0

 ...somewhere ....

Scott,
As you say, training for a war is not the same as training for day to day life. Even within traditional martial arts it's interesting to see the difference in focus between military and non military arts  (in a historical context). I would be interested to see in the future how your 'civilian' curriculum changes from the 'combat' curriculum.
I am also interested in the thoughts that you have regarding the eventual return of trained fighters into a civilian society, but I know these are off topic.....

There are many books about dueling out there, these are the ones I read:
   
Gentlemen's Blood: A History of Dueling by Barbara Holland

By the Sword: A History of Gladiators, Musketeers, Samurai, Swashbucklers, and Olympic Champions  by Richard Cohen

There are also many books written about dueling technique that are fascinating, the ones listed above are more about the history.

Scott,
You say, quote:
"I also state this as I cannot (personally) see using a blade on another human and have the intention be anything other than complete and instant death of the opposition."
Are you saying:
a) "Complete and instant death" of the opposition is the only desired outcome in a self defense situation involving a blade?
b) The only way to use a blade to defend yourself is to intend "complete and instant" death on the opposition?
c) You would not use a blade in a self defense situation unless you intended to kill?
d) You would not carry a blade because to use it is to kill?

Perhaps I am off the mark in all these cases. Could you clarify?
I am curious because my teacher cautioned us gravely to understand the potential consequences of drawing a blade (because to draw it meant you had to be willing to use it), and a consistent focus throughout the training was deterrent, evasion and escape, blade or no blade.

A couple more thoughts.
The Kukri, the Bolo - Both "utilitarian tools"
A "killing hit" is not necessarily a "stopping hit" - see earlier in the thread.

A couple thoughts occur, though it's been a long day so I'll keep em short:

Obviously the idea of self defense is to stop the aggressor from continuing (duh), so the issue of what is a 'stopping hit' becomes important.
There is a thread somewhere on this forum where this was discussed a while back. As I recall there is some quote from a samurai about the only cut guaranteed to stop another samurai was judged to be a decapitation ... all else was deemed questionable! Anyway there are many more modern day examples of people not knowing they were stabbed/cut until after the altercation was over, so how does that play into the 'f.u.t' or in the use of any short weapon at close range?

This then leads to the next question: What about targeting? For instance cutting the forehead - blood in the eyes to hinder aggressor is perhaps better with a slashing weapon?

And finally, how about the psychological effect of seeing a certain type of a blade? Is one a better deterrent than another? Our system differentiates between hiding the blade from the opponent and showing/flashing it to catch their attention to create a freezing point (see the 'pre emption and sucker punches' thread on confusing the thought process of a potential aggressor). Both useful skills to have I believe.

There is a famous philosophical discussion about how to design a chair - is it just something to sit on? Or should one be able to use it as a step, a table, to keep the door open, etc etc? Well I think the same could be said for a blade. is it just a killing tool or is it more? I guess I like the fact that I can peel my apple, use it for work (I'm a painter), and also use it to defend myself. Today I used it to remove a splinter from my thumb, and so my vote is for a well designed, practical, flexible design that can adapt to the situation at hand, not necessarily straight, but not too specialized either.
I do not work as a LEO or a bouncer and don't go out late at night any more, so honestly I don't see myself carrying multiple blades as my life is really not that dangerous.

BTW, there is a great story about Maestro Sonny and his creative ability to avoid a fight that I will post on the 'pre emption' thread.

I like wrestling shoes, also favored by my training partners - light weight, split sole for flexibility and a bit of ankle support. Asics, Nike etc all make them, and most big sports stores carry them.
Also www.Eastbay.com has a good selection.
Now my teacher .... he'd sometimes wear sharp-looking, leather dancing shoes, but he was unusual .....