DBMA Martial Arts Forum > Martial Arts Topics
Has anyone ever seen a real Kali fight?
Rodger:
--- Quote from: Crafty_Dog ---Rodger:
I make no claims concerning mother art or any of the rest of it. Have you bothered to go back in the thread as I suggested so that you may have the proper context for my remarks, and thus for the remarks of Guro Inosanto?
--- End quote ---
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Sorry, I was addressing Robin Padilla. Whenever I quote, "kali is the mother art", I'm addressing Robin Padilla.
--- Quote ---Again, words offered in conversation seem to fail to register. Are we to be dogs barking at each other across a fence or are we men communicating? There is the Mirafuentes introduction, and there is Guro Inosanto's recounting of what he learned from Manong LaCoste. If you think him a liar, then say so.
--- End quote ---
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As for the Juan Lacoste/Kali connection, I have already posted the questions to try to verify this. Personally, this is my take on the Lacoste/Kali connection. And please keep in mind, this is just my opinion.
Mr. Lacoste was born somewhere in the Visayas, most likely Cebu. He was said to have travelled throughout the Philippines. This is nothing special in the Philippines, especially if you live in the coastal region of the Visayas. If you hang around in the ports of Cebu (especially back at the turn of the century), chances are you'll be able to hop on a steamer and end up in Zamboanga, Cagayan de Oro, Isabela, Cotabato, Tawi-Tawi, etc.
Mr. Lacoste went to California in the early part of the 1920s, 1930s, as many young Filipinos did when the Philippines became an American commonwealth. These Filipinos comprise the 'Manong' generation.
I asked you earlier whether, Mr. Lacoste called his art Kali, because no Bisayan calls their art Kali. If I am not mistaken he called his art Moro Moro. So, I think his use (or rather his introduction to this word) of Kali came later on when he met Mr. Inosanto, having already met Mr. Largusa, in California. When the word came up, he simply just agreed with it, as many Filipinos tend to do (like Antonio Ilustrisimo), because the name of their art is incidental.
Again, this is just my educated guess, given what little we know of Mr. Lacoste and his relation to the bigger cultural framework in the Visayas.
As for Mr. Inosanto a Liar, I will never refer to the man who brought FMA to the world as such. But, I will add that although he is Filipino by blood, he has never visited the Philippines, and does not speak a Filipino language (atleast fluently). So, we must account for all possibilities of translations lost.
1. Floro Villabrille (Mirafuerte, 1957) We're still trying to research this.
2. Ben Largusa
3. Dan Inosanto
4. Leo Gaje Jr.
So, if you agree with my little summary of the Lacoste/Kali connection, we still have 4 aces and a wild card.
Rodger:
--- Quote from: Robin Padilla ---
What about Arnis and Eskrima? Is there any evidence within a span of 50 to 100 years that these terms preceed Kali (the mother art)?
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What years Arnis and Eskrima became part of the FMA lexicon, is really a non-issue, since no one claims these words to be Ancient or Filipino. These titles were arbitrarily used by two groups, namely the Bisayas and Tagalogs. I believe Ilocanos use Kabaro-an. But, no groups use Kali (atleast none you can come up with). :arrow:
--- Quote ---Hmmm...Maybe someone can track down the Yambao/Mirafuentes people and inquire about Kali (the mother art).
--- End quote ---
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If we can figure out how Mirafuertes came up with Kali, we'll be able to connect the dots. As I've said we have 4 guys and Mirafuerte in 1957. During the 1950s, Villabrille and Largusa were in Hawaii.
On a side note, did Mr. Sulite travel all over the Philippines, or did he just travel around the Visayas region (northern Mindanao, Leyte, Negros, Cebu, etc.). Because out of the 40 or so, masters in his book, about 35 to 37 were Bisayas, and most were from Cebu. One Cebuano was connected to Kali, Antonio Ilustrimo. But, we later learned the truth about that connection.
Rodger:
On a side note, did Mr. Sulite travel all over the Philippines, or did he just travel around the Visayas region (northern Mindanao, Leyte, Negros, Cebu, etc.). Because out of the 40 or so, masters in his book, about 35 to 37 were Bisayas, and most were from Cebu. One Cebuano was connected to Kali, Antonio Ilustrimo. But, we later learned the truth about that connection.
Crafty Dog:
Woof All:
With an eye to closing my participation in this thread, this summary:
1) Assertions were made that the Villabrille, Gaje, Illustrisimo claims of Kali had been disproven.
I am no historian, and these individuals and groups are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.
2) Assertions were made that Guro Inosanto's use of the term Kali descended from Villabrille, Gaje and Illustrisimo and that the four of them comprised the sources of the term Kali and thus in that V, G, & I had been defeated in scholarly debate, that Kali had been defeated as a term of legitimate use-- thus only the illegitimate used the term.
3) At this point I interjected my disagreement with this conclusion. IMHO this conclusion has NOT been determined beyond a reasonable doubt.
In evidence of this I noted the Mirafuentes introduction to Yambao (the year on this is not clear to me-- I have seen references in this thread to the late 1940s through the late 1957) and stated that Guro Inosanto's usage of Kali came principally from Manong LaCoste. Thus the Kali doubters could not yet claim victory should one agree with their assertions of defeating V, G, & I (and the V & G people may very well disagree!)
My post a couple of pages back stated:
BEGIN
Guro Inosanto also received the term from Manong Juan LaCoste. JLC was murdered in 1973 IIRC at the age of 89, which would mean he was born around 1884. The story of his travels in the Philippines is fairly well known, and for him the term Kali was quite valid. In that he was Guro Inosanto's principal FMA teacher, I would give him principal credit for Guro I's use of the term Kali.
END
This seems plain enough in its meaning to me. A follow-up inquiry asked
"To the best of your knowledge, did manong Juan LaCoste use 'Kali' for the art he practiced? or Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned? Manong Juan LaCoste was Bisaya, they say he was from Cebu, so the fact that he used 'Kali' for his art is very interesting."
I note in passing that he was born in Cebu does not mean his art was Cebuano. Anyway, I answered this follow-up question:
BEGIN
You are right to use the phrase "To the best of your knowledge" when dealing with me. I am a highly unreliable conduit of knowledge in these matters. As I have related previously elsewhere, during one of the periodic outbreaks of the JKD wars back in the 1980s in a guest column to Inside Kung Fu, I got something wrong that led to a lot of heat on Guro I. It was not until 3 or 4 years later that he gently said something in passing (said so gently I almost missed it) that led me to ask him a question that allowed him to set me straight.
You are also right to ask "Did he just agree to 'Kali' when it was mentioned?" As a typical clueless American it has taken many years for me to begin to appreciate that there seems to be a cultural difference in Filipino and American culture when it comes to handling differences. Often, the Filipino will 'agree' so as to be 'polite' and the American will openly state his difference. Obviously, Filipinos will often disagree quite vigorously too and I readily admit to not having figured out criteria to predict whether the response will be polite pretense of agreement or passionate ire.
IIRC the order of Guro Inonsanto's studies, his studies with Manong LaCoste well preceded his training with Largusa and Villabrille.
IIRC Manong LaCoste, as I mentioned in a recent post here, was unusually well-travelled throughout the Philippine archipelago and was unusually diverse in his training-- including being accepted into training with Muslims in the south. It was out of this diverse training that he came to use the world Kali with Guro Inosanto.
But PLEASE do not take my word for any of this. Remember, I am a highly unreliable conduit. Guro Inosanto is out there on seminars well over 40 weekends a year. Why not ask him? Do know however, that he can have both a highly developed sense of wanting people to feel at ease as well as a desire to avoid conflict in such matters with vexatious persons.
Concerning the latter point, given what I have seen him deal with over the years, he has my understanding, my sympathy and my deepest respect.
END
IT IS THESE WORDS THAT GURO INOSANTO RATIFIES WITH HIS ANSWER WHICH I POSTED.
BEGIN
Marc:
Your reply is fine. Kali probably had many names in ancient times before the coming of the Spanish in the Philippines. Such as Kalirogan. Kaliradman. Kali-Kali and Pagkalikali to name a few.
END
Again I was queried on this same point:
BEGIN
I asked you earlier whether, Mr. Lacoste called his art Kali, because no Bisayan calls their art Kali. If I am not mistaken he called his art Moro Moro. So, I think his use (or rather his introduction to this word) of Kali came later on when he met Mr. Inosanto, having already met Mr. Largusa, in California. When the word came up, he simply just agreed with it, as many Filipinos tend to do (like Antonio Ilustrisimo), because the name of their art is incidental.
Again, this is just my educated guess, given what little we know of Mr. Lacoste and his relation to the bigger cultural framework in the Visayas.
END
Your educated guess notwithstanding, the answer remains the same as stated by me and directly affirmed by Guro Inosanto. MANONG LACOSTE USED THE TERM KALI (amongst others) AND IS THE PRINCIPAL SOURCE OF GURO INOSANTO USING IT AS WELL. His being born in Cebu is irrelevant.
I close with this point and by reiterating the matter posed by the Mirafuentes intro. I know that some anti-kalistas have hypothesized some conspiracy by Stockton CA farm field hands that reached all the way back to the Philippines so thoroughly so long ago that by the time it was written that Mirafuentes thought the term needed no further explanation, but IMHO this is well short of proving one's case :P .
My position continues to be that the anti-Kalistas have not yet conclusively proven their historical case. I also continue not being a historian. I also continue to seek to persuade no one. I also continue to never assert "mother art" and the like. I merely defend myself (and my teacher) from insults in the guise of disagreement.
And indeed one may disagree about all this. Those so inclined to invest their time in these things are free to do so-- including here so long as done in a mutually respectful manner-- and I will continue to be an interested bystander.
But my hackles go up when it is claimed that there is no honest basis for the Kali side to maintain itself and that to do so implies negative things about those that do so.
I now return to other things.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
Rodger:
"Dan Inosanto: The Man, The Teacher, The Artist"
--- Quote ---
JUANITO (JOHN) LACOSTE
Guro John LaCoste taught Dan kali-escrima-kuntao silat (bersilat) panatukan, dumog-kapulubud, and panjakan. Dan's father, Sebastian, took him to meet LaCoste before Dan went into the army, but it wasn't until 1969 or 1970 that Dan understood what LaCoste was trying to teach him.
Born somewhere in the central Philippines in 1888, Guro LaCoste studied and was familiar with many different styles, but his favorites were the Muslim system of the southern Philippines, especially two styles from the island of Cebu and one from the island of Occidental Negros.
Guro LaCoste moved from the Philippines to Hawaii and was deported after he headed a major labor strike that cost the lives of a dozen farm workers and 22 "policemen." He came back to California several years later, enlisted in the military, and was eventually decorated for heroism. Due to citizenship issues, he borrowed the name "LaCoste" so he could stay longer in the army.
When he was finally discharged, he settled in Stockton, California, where he received several commendations from the Stockton police for catching criminals. Tragically, he was murdered in 1977, shot in the head from behind by a person with whom he'd had a heated political discussion.
According to Guro LaCoste, in one month he could teach anyone how to fight and defeat any style of escrima by showing how to block and counter the first two strikes. From him, Guro Dan learned the versatility of the Filipino martial arts and the use of trapping and checking hands. Guro Dan felt that Guro LaCoste was a master with the stick, dagger, long blade, and empty hands (Inosanto, Foon, and Johnson 1980: 17).
Dan Inosanto believes LaCoste's system was one of the best in providing an overall explanation of the Filipino arts and that LaCoste was one of the best all-around instructors with whom he has studied. LaCoste had 12 categories of instruction and could relate each category to the other, particularly with empty-hand techniques.
LaCoste liked to start students with the long and short sticks derived from the sword-and-dagger method. His feeling was that with a complete comprehension of the long and short weapons, the student would understand the application of the other categories.
LaCoste was a spiritual man whose personal philosophy was that you could learn from anyone. This appealed to Dan Inosanto and was one of the reasons he began to cross-train with other instructors. LaCoste even sent Dan to different kali and escrima instructors, something virtually unheard of in the martial arts world of the early 1960s.
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