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DBMA Martial Arts Forum => Martial Arts Topics => Topic started by: logan on October 26, 2003, 02:15:09 PM

Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: logan on October 26, 2003, 02:15:09 PM
a little question about the "titles" in fma.

i only know guro means teacher, like sifu in the chinese
martial arts. but what for example means: punong guro?

and had the phillipinos also terms for trainingspartner?
(like si-hing in chinese). or grandmaster? and are the titles/names
in the different parts of the phillipines the same?

thanks for answering  
greetings bobi  
(gladius et codex)
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 26, 2003, 08:13:10 PM
there's really no title that's indigenous to filipino martial arts.  in the 1800s and early 1900s, eskrimadors (spanish for fencers, as they were called by their spanish counterparts) fought amongst themselves.  they did this either for money, survival, etc ect.  when these eskrimadors began teaching their art or styles to students, they were challenged.  this i guess was their way of 'quality control'.  

titles such as 'guru', 'punong guro', etc. were reserved for religious teachers (the title itself came from sanskrit).  titles such as 'punong guru' and 'grandmaster' were unnecessary because styles and arts were passed down through family.  there's no need to call your uncle, grandfather, or father 'guru' or 'grandmaster'.

the words 'guru' and 'kali' are new words introduced in the 60s and 70s to filipinize filipino martial arts.  'punong guru' or 'tuhon' were used arbitrarily to replace the english 'grandmaster'.  'kali' was introduced in the 70s also to replace the words eskrima and arnis, which are spanish.  interestingly, these replacement of words began in the u.s.-- not the philippines.  guro and tuhon are words with religious connotations, while the word kali seems to have no anthropological, cultural, historical basis.  kali has now come to be associated with the more blade oriented styles.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 27, 2003, 04:24:38 AM
Woof B

  It seems to be a tradition in FMA to have terminology disputes with near religous fervor.  To this American, it often seems analogous to an American and a Mexican over the word "negro".  For one it is considered an unpleasant racial term, for the other it means "black".  What an odd debate that would be!

  Terminology is certainly not a forte of mine, but I do know that when i trained with Edgar Sulite, as the founder of Lameco, he used the term "Punong Guro".  It might be translated as "Grandmaster" or "teacher of teachers-- master teacher"

  Concerning Kali, there seem to be many Filipinos of the opinion of our anonymous guest, and certainly its use is a minority one, but I am of the opinion that the term does have proper lineage.  This point having been debated many, many, many times before I am uninterested to go into yet again.  In that we use the term Kali, I merely note this diversity of opinion for your awareness.

HTH,
Crafty Dog
Title: ?
Post by: logan on October 27, 2003, 04:43:34 AM
hello crafty, hello "guest" thanks for answering.

okay then it have no standard "titles" in the fma.

i only know that in wing chun the terminology is very
important, also stuff like pictures in the trainingsroom......
and so on. i heard the phillipino teachers handle this
easyier. titles are not so important. i only ask,
because im interrested in the thinking and the roots
of the phillipino-practioners. not to discuss about
things that have no end (like: is arnis a better name
than escrima? ...).

have somebody else some infos?

ahooo! bobi
ps: (sorry for the bad english... :-))
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 27, 2003, 08:25:54 AM
logan,
i think japanese, chinese, and korean martial arts focus on lineage because of confucianism.  just a theory.  you see, if you also go to east asian households, you'll also see photos of 'ancestors'.  so culturally, they are predisposed to lineages.

filipino culture, however, cares not for 'ancestor' worship.  every generation is tested, not relying on history.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on October 29, 2003, 12:44:39 PM
Quote from: Anonymous
logan,
i think japanese, chinese, and korean martial arts focus on lineage because of confucianism.  just a theory.  you see, if you also go to east asian households, you'll also see photos of 'ancestors'.  so culturally, they are predisposed to lineages.

filipino culture, however, cares not for 'ancestor' worship.  every generation is tested, not relying on history.


In Ernesto Presas' book it states that, "When a tiger dies, it leaves it's skin - when a man dies, he leaves his name"  Sounds like ancestor worship is alive and well in the Phillipines.

If ancestor worship was not alive and well, all the homage being paid to various teachers from the various sects of FMA would not exist.  There are those who seek knowledge of skillset from various legendary teachers. and claimed they learned from so and so.   Again, another example.

Anybody that has trained under a nobody or somebody not well known usually gets tested moreso than one who has lineage.  If not, why do people end up doing the groupie thing than seek the lesser known ones who have learned like skill but doesn't go around flaunting or advertising it?  I find that interesting.

Look at Guro Dan Inosanto... his schedule of late seems to be more booked up than ever.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2003, 08:05:34 PM
ancestor worship in the philippines, as far as martial arts go, if you notice, only go as far back as the beginning of the 1900s.

the importance of lineage in FMA began after WWII, because many people felt lineage was an important part of one's fighting prowess.

if you ask people about lineage before the 1900s, people wouldn't know anything.  people won't know because lineage in FMA was never important. it was only when FMA was compared to other east asian arts, who celebrated lineages, that many felt they had to mention 'lineage'.

such dogma has no place in real fighting.  

to quote bruce lee (once you've achieved the level of virtuousity), "forget everything your teacher has taught you".  this is a call for innovation, to not be bogged down on dogmas and lineages.  FMA already had this, then it lost it, then it found it again.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2003, 08:13:25 PM
Quote from: Anonymous


Anybody that has trained under a nobody or somebody not well known usually gets tested moreso than one who has lineage.  If not, why do people end up doing the groupie thing than seek the lesser known ones who have learned like skill but doesn't go around flaunting or advertising it?  I find that interesting.


availability!!! people will seek those who are well advertised.  people arent going to seek someone who doesn't want to be found or isn't well advertised. there are only two types of masters in this world, one who makes a commodity of his art and the other that doesn't--money, no money.  but whether one is better than the other, is none of my concern.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on October 29, 2003, 11:15:04 PM
I bet if Chief Lapu Lapu was around, people would clamor to him for training, too.  Doesn't he predate the 1900's?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 30, 2003, 06:18:39 AM
historical figure, bro.

for all we know he could've been some old, feeble datu (leader) calling the shots in the magellan coastal battle from a hammock on the beach, while watching the fight unfold.

doesn't support 'lineage' in the FMA.  name another FMA master that pre-dates the 1900s.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: logan on October 30, 2003, 06:41:09 AM
no lineage before 1900`s. okay but maybe the
lineage start in the 60`s, starts in america... ????
why not?

in medival-arts the lineage begins again, start new---
after 200(?)years.

greetings bobi
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 30, 2003, 09:44:51 AM
that's one way to look at it, logan.

but then you have to ask why and how FMA lineage began in the 50s and 60s, to document early 1900s eskrimadors?

answer: because filipino eskrimadors felt they had to, amidst east asian arts which became popular and commercialized after WWII in the u.s.  new FMA fighters (i.e. presas, inosanto, largusa, etc.) felt they had to legitimize themselves thru lineages, following the tradition of karate, judo, wing-tsun, tae kwon do, etc.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on October 30, 2003, 12:10:13 PM
Quote from: Anonymous
historical figure, bro.

for all we know he could've been some old, feeble datu (leader) calling the shots in the magellan coastal battle from a hammock on the beach, while watching the fight unfold.

doesn't support 'lineage' in the FMA.  name another FMA master that pre-dates the 1900s.


That is the problem with history.  When it becomes revisionist and there is the six degres of seperation, it all goes to shit.

Looks like the Spaniards and Americans did a postal on Filipino history.  Who knows what the real truth is anymore?  Which renders this thread moot... as well as any opinion since it is as current as yesterday's old news.

This is what I am gleaning from where this is gonna' go.  Best to end it now.  We are all being lied to in the end.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: james on October 30, 2003, 06:44:31 PM
Quote from: Anonymous
that's one way to look at it, logan.

but then you have to ask why and how FMA lineage began in the 50s and 60s, to document early 1900s eskrimadors?

answer: because filipino eskrimadors felt they had to, amidst east asian arts which became popular and commercialized after WWII in the u.s.  new FMA fighters (i.e. presas, inosanto, largusa, etc.) felt they had to legitimize themselves thru lineages, following the tradition of karate, judo, wing-tsun, tae kwon do, etc.


personally, i tend to agree with the above.
Title: name
Post by: masterboy on October 30, 2003, 07:02:10 PM
Woof Guro Crafty,

"but I am of the opinion that the term does have proper lineage."

please educate us of this proper lineage. if there is such an ancient term as kali .and if there were pre-Spanish styles of Kali

...then my follow up question would be that would these ancient Kali styles have direct lineage to the same of the Kali styles that "Filipino-americans" (some who are even revered as the authority but have never even stepped foot in any of the 7100 islands)or homebred Filipinos who are marketing the art in the US for cash have named the art Kali?
Title: Re: name
Post by: Anonymous on October 30, 2003, 07:52:03 PM
this is what we have so far on this subject, masterboy... hope that helps.

Quote from: masterboy
Woof Guro Crafty,

"but I am of the opinion that the term does have proper lineage."

please educate us of this proper lineage. if there is such an ancient term as kali .and if there were pre-Spanish styles of Kali

...then my follow up question would be that would these ancient Kali styles have direct lineage to the same of the Kali styles that "Filipino-americans" (some who are even revered as the authority but have never even stepped foot in any of the 7100 islands)or homebred Filipinos who are marketing the art in the US for cash have named the art Kali?


Quote from: yojimbo
Quote from: Erica

I heard people began using Kali arbitrarily  in the 60s and 70s, here in the US (sf bay area to be exact), to differentiate themselves from eskrima or arnis.  It was more blade oriented, with more spiritual connotations.

But, if you read or talked to old eskrimadors, no one really used the word Kali at the turn of the century. They were just eskrimadors, who practiced eskrima/arnis. So, where does the word Kali come from?



Kali is just a term used to differentiate.  Basically, it's for maketing.  An art based on the blade is somewhat awe inspiring.  But, actually, I don't see any difference between stick based and blade based eskrima/arnis.  I guess sticking out is good.  Maybe I'll call my art "Koochi-Koo" to differentiate it from eskrima, arnis, and kali.  It's the next evolution!!! LOL, j/k.

Quote from: Spadaccino


The term kali is usually claimed to be the "original" term for FMA, but it is in fact historically invalid.  As Mark Wiley pointed out in Filipino Martial Culture:

With regard to the term kali as being the name of a pre-Hispanic Filipino martial art, it is not.  There is no historical, anthropological, or literary evidence to support the contention that an art by this name existed during or prior to the sixteenth century.

Dr. Ned Nepangue, in his fascinating essay, "Questioning the Origins of Eskrima",  also observed:

Kali was never a traditional name for the native Filipino martial art.  If one goes to a secluded place in Cebu, for example, and asks the elder eskrimadores if they know what kali is, they will probably say they have no idea.  And these people are supposed to know.

The term "kali" appears to have first been used to describe FMA in 1957, when Placido Yambao wrote the first modern book on FMA, called Knowledge in the art of arnis.  Many theories and claims have been postulated, as to the origins of the term.  Wiley wrote:

In fact, there is a great deal of speculation as to the original meaning and use of the term in the Philippines.  Placido Yambao, for example, equates the shortened term kali as having derived from martial arts terms in various dialects such as pagkalikali (Ibanag), kalirongan (Pangasinan), and kaliradman (Visayan).  Remy Presas posits that the term derives from the Indonesian martial art of tjakalele.  Some claim that the term derives from the black and bloody Hindu goddess Kali, consort of the Hindu god Siva.  Others associate the term kali as deriving from the name of the kalis sword, and the reverse spelling of silat (or silak).  Still others equate the term with an abbreviation of Kalimantan (North Borneo), the island from which the ten datus fled, eventually establishing the Bothoan on Panay.  However, a study of various historical, anthropoligical, literary, and "popular" sources indicates that the term, as used to identify a martial art, did not exist prior to the twentieth century.

Wiley goes on to note that the term "kali" really became popular in the 1970s, due to the writings of Dan Inosanto.  It may be that Inosanto chose to group all of FMA under one term (kali) for simplicity's sake.

For more info on all of this check out Mark Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture, as well as the following essays from Arnis:  Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts (edited by Wiley):

"A Question of Origins" by Felipe P . Jocano, Jr.

"Questioning the Origins of Eskrima" by Dr. Ned Nepangue

"The Origins of Traditional Silat in the Philippines" by Joma B. Rivera

"Eskrima, Spanish Rapier, and the Lost Continent of Mu:  Thoughts on Diffusionism in Martial Arts Histories" by J. Christoph Amberger

"On Purism and Development" by Mark Wiley

Wiley also has an interesting article called "Classical Eskrima:  The Evolution and Etymology of a Filipino Fencing Form", which appeared in the Volume 3-Number2-1994 issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts.  He covers all the material regarding the term eskrima.  It is very interesting.

Let me know if I can help with anything else.

Peace,

David Black Mastro
[/quote]

Quote from: grace
so how is it historically valid?

personally, i'm tired of having to use spanish, french, and english names for 'filipino martial arts'. hell, even the word filipino is foreign in origin (from king philip of spain?). so, i would really like to call it something indigenous.

but, this indigenous name needs to be historically, tradionally, culturally relevant. it cannot be some made up word. becuz if you create an arbitrary word and claim it to have historical relevance, people will question its validity and laugh.

this validity should not be open to arguments. it should be easy to prove. others who question this name/word/title should automatically be shot down with easily proven facts.

the word "KALI" fails to accomplish the above necessities. so, while we await this 'indigenous' term to return to us from the obscurity of the ancient past, we will have to settle for the words given to us by the spaniards (filipino, eskrima, arnis, abanico, florette, corto, largo, medio, corrida, etc).

p.s.-- if you possess these historical validities/facts, do share them so we may weight the word KALI accordingly.

p.p.s.--my questioning the etymology of the word, does not take away from the art or the practitioners of these arts. no disrespect is meant.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on October 30, 2003, 11:32:19 PM
Woof All:

I am thoroughly jet-lagged and if I growl a bit in what follows, , , ,

My dad taught me that if you repeat yourself, you teach people not to listen.  

Please forgive me, but I have been through this so many times, that I am done with it.  EVERYTHING said in this thread I have seen many times before and has been thoroughly responded to many times over the years.

Yes of course some use it for marketing, and yes many FMA people in the Philippines have never heard of it.  So what?  This does not disprove excrement.  IMHO, not lightly formed, the term "Kali" has legitimate roots.

I am not about the theology of terminology and have better things to do with my day.

Grrr,
Crafty Dog
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 31, 2003, 06:52:51 AM
we just want the very least proof that you have, so we can atleast say, "hmmmmmm, maybe kali is legitimate after all".

we are not here to debate, we are just asking for what little shred of evidence supporting the word kali.

one cannot keep saying, "the word has historical evidence and is legitimate, and not offer proofs for it".  

it's just a matter of listing precedence and evidence for others to learn from.  this is also for kali practioners reading this thread, so they'd know how to respond to people who question the title of their art. really simple.  this isn't a debate.  it's information sharing.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Russ Iger on October 31, 2003, 08:55:22 AM
Guro Inosanto teaches that the term Kali is derived from two separate words: KA(MUT) & LI(HOk).  Their meaning together is "hand motion."

KAMUT is a filipino dialect word for hand, and LIHOK is a word for movement or motion.

For a more detailed discussion of this see the Atienza Kali website forum on 6/11/03.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 31, 2003, 09:34:05 AM
so KALI is just an arbitrary fussion of two visayan words?

so it could've been KUPA, for KUmo (fist) and PAspas (speed), or maybe LALI, for LAwas (body) and LIhok (movement).

the question is... where's the historicity of this WORD?  if there is none, then just say it's a filipino-american development in the 60s.  and it will be accepted as a new development in FMA.  but, to say something is historical without the minimum of proofs is just silly.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Russ Iger on October 31, 2003, 01:42:37 PM
Hi Guest,

Why do you say it is "arbitrary?"

Filipinos have history in the US dating back to the 1500s.  Why would the term Kali have to be a product of Filipino Americans in the 1960s.  From what I have heard, word of mouth, it is at least as old as Filipino Veterans from WWII that imigrated to the US after the War.

Once again, check out the posting I mentioned above for a more thorough discussion of this matter.

Happy Halloween,
Russ
---------------------

Woof Russ:

Could you give the specific URL for the Atienza forum?

TIA
Crafty
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Spadaccino on October 31, 2003, 06:30:34 PM
Interesting thread.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 31, 2003, 06:40:49 PM
Quote from: Russ Iger
Hi Guest,

Why do you say it is "arbitrary?"

Filipinos have history in the US dating back to the 1500s.  Why would the term Kali have to be a product of Filipino Americans in the 1960s.  From what I have heard, word of mouth, it is at least as old as Filipino Veterans from WWII that imigrated to the US after the War.

Once again, check out the posting I mentioned above for a more thorough discussion of this matter.

Happy Halloween,
Russ


hi russ,
the word 'arbitrary' is used because KALI wasn't really used in the early 1900s (or even prior), nor did the eskrimadors from stockton or other eskrimadors born in the early 1900s who stayed in the philippines.  KALI only became prominent in the 1960s and 1970s here in the U.S.  basically, what i'm saying is... there is no proof, either by mouth or written that KALI is indeed the title used for this 'original' martial art found in the philippines.

with that said, you're suppose to say: "actually, there is proof" and then outline this evidence.  but, a belief without the support of evidence is Faith, while that which is supported with evidence is Fact.

so, these historical proofs is what we are waiting on now...
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on October 31, 2003, 10:33:20 PM
When I asked to learn the Cebuano terms from my stickfighting coach, he poo-poop'ed it and discouraged me from inquiring further.  In the many years I trained with him, I may have learned maybe a half a dozen terms.

He said to me it doesn't matter what it is called.  It wouldn't help me learn any better and English was a perfectly good language to learn with.  I discovered this as time went on and he was right.

Who cares what they call it and what terms are used?  The shit just works.  In fact, they can call it shit but if it works - it works.  Anything else discussed is pointless... unless you are spending more time being a history buff or hoplologist than training.  'Nuff said.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: joey on October 31, 2003, 11:38:06 PM
Quote from: Guest
When I asked to learn the Cebuano terms from my stickfighting coach, he poo-poop'ed it and discouraged me from inquiring further.  In the many years I trained with him, I may have learned maybe a half a dozen terms.


maybe he just didn't want u to learn cebuano, period!!! most balintawak teachers don't teach their non-filipino students the cebuano terms cuz they usually hold certain information back, including techniques.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Spadaccino on November 01, 2003, 06:01:43 AM
Quote from: Guest

Who cares what they call it and what terms are used?  The shit just works.  In fact, they can call it shit but if it works - it works.


I think the problem is that many people in the FMA community have made various claims regarding terminology, etc.  They have changed over from common expressions like eskrima to things like "kali", presumably to give the art a more authentic Filipino "feel".  Why this is necessary is beyond me, since the PI are probably THE major "martial arts crossroads", where one can find, in addition to the native styles, influences from Indonesia, India, China, Japan, and Europe (mainly Spain, of course).  FMA terms are a mixture of many indigenous languages (Tagalog, Visayan, et al) and Spanish.  What's the big deal, and why bother to change over from established terms to something else?  The Filipino martial arts are truly unique in their composition--certainly, what other Asian styles can claim such a varied and interesting history and lineage?  This diversity is what makes FMA so versatile and effective, and that's a GOOD thing.

Then, when some folks question the switch to historically invalid terms like "kali", others simply blow it off by saying "who cares what it's called, as long as it works?"

Quote
Anything else discussed is pointless... unless you are spending more time being a history buff or hoplologist than training.  'Nuff said.


Ah yes, the ol' macho "we should only be training" bit.  What about folks who are both hoplologists AND serious martial artists--like the late founder of modern hoplology himself, Donn F. Draeger?  How do folks like him fit into your equation?

I'm sorry if any of the above offends anyone (it's honestly not meant to), but I've seen Guest's line of argument too many times in the past, and I'm a little weary of it.

Peace,

David Black Mastro/TFS
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: beatnik warrior on November 01, 2003, 10:46:41 AM
http://www.atienzakali.com/Forum/messages/551.html

Quote from: Lorna Atienza
Our culture is so deeply entrenched with other cultures that came to the Philippines before, during and after the spanish time. and should we forget that the name for our country "Philipines" came from the name Phillip of Spain? Who knows what our country was called before it was dubbed "Philippines?"
I remember Pop and I discussing where/how the term "kali" was used as an altername for arnis.
Kali is a Goddess(Hindu?)that has numerous arms (about 6 or eight), and each hand ( that is connected to each arm, of course) holds a sword or a weapon. When the movement in arnis/kali/whatever is done, it is so fast and so effective/deadly that it is as if the individual has several weaponed hands. He read this somewhere.
This could have been an opinion of an author. It could have been an Indian author. Who knows?
Does'nt this make sense?


so, now KALI is hindu? that?s kinda reaching it.

Quote from: Allain Atienza
As a Filipino in the United States, surrounded by other cultures and encouraged to investigate one?s own heritage, it?s not good enough to know that ?Magellan brought Christianity and so the story of the Philippines began?? Many of our older countrymen are satisfied with this, yet it is important to delve and research and find out more. Many more young Filipinos are learning the Baybayin scripts (the funny Elvish writing on our website) Many others, when learning that Malay traders sailed as far as Madagascar, are filled with pride, knowing that they come from a race and culture that is not just a bastard offshoot of local Asians and Conquistadors.
So? Kali, or Arnis or Escrima?
In reality, one is just as good as the other, and I use them interchangeably at times. But in my opinion, the term kali, although it may not be as old or established as the other names, carries with it a cultural implication, a leaning towards questions and answers about the deepness our culture.
Now what would be really cool is if someone really researched and found out what we called the Art before the Spaniards came. I?m guessing they just called it ?fighting? Something like ?Laban-laban? Maybe they called it "Bong"


it would be really cool if someone did research, but until then people shouldn?t just arbitrarily use words with no historical support.

and, if it is indeed 300 yrs old, where is the minimum proof?

Quote
Then why use Kali over the other names, which have to be at least three hundred years older? (Give or take, I?m bad at math)
Well, I remember being initially taught Arnis de Mano, and everything was fine and happy. But in the late 70?s, the word Kali popped up (I don?t know who started it) and it was well received here in the East Coast. My father, who was ever hungry for any information about the Philippines and our culture before the coming of the Spanish, loved that there was a word being widely used to describe our Art that did not come from our one-time conquerors. I never learned that it was ?older? or more ?accurate? than Arnis or Escrima, only that it didn?t originate from Spain. There were others who resisted the new term, who clung to the older nomenclature, feeling that it was more traditional. Yet many students of the Art, most of them young and swept up in the cultural self-awareness that was just gaining momentum in the 70?s, embraced the alternative out of cultural pride.


i just visited the Atienza site and found the thread you were referring to, russ.  i took the quotes above and posted it here, to make a point that even the ones who use the word KALI do not even know how they came to use this word.

this relates to the whole issue of historicity. now, of course this doesn't take anything away from their skill.  and we are not attacking their art, but instead trying to figure out where and how the title KALI began.

now, if the one's who readily use the word KALI do not even know the origins of this word, then it's pretty easy to deduce that this word isn't the 'ancient' name, but rather an unacademic attempt to rename and 'filipinize' FMA here in the US, to replace the spanish terms already in use since the 1700s in the Philippines.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: beatnik warrior on November 01, 2003, 10:55:40 AM
below is also a good point... i believe studies have shown that the word KALI actually came from a popular Visayan word KALIBANGA'.  i've heard people say that this ancient word has been around since time began in the islands.  i think it has something to do with the water or the food found there.  it's worth looking into...

Quote from: Guest
so KALI is just an arbitrary fussion of two visayan words?

so it could've been KUPA, for KUmo (fist) and PAspas (speed), or maybe LALI, for LAwas (body) and LIhok (movement).

the question is... where's the historicity of this WORD?  if there is none, then just say it's a filipino-american development in the 60s.  and it will be accepted as a new development in FMA.  but, to say something is historical without the minimum of proofs is just silly.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: new guest on November 01, 2003, 07:20:27 PM
Guro Inosanto teaches that the term Kali is derived from two separate
Quote
words: KA(MUT) & LI(HOk). Their meaning together is "hand motion."

KAMUT is a filipino dialect word for hand, and LIHOK is a word for movement or motion.

For a more detailed discussion of this see the Atienza Kali website forum on 6/11/03.


I do not want to discredit Mr. Inosanto for helping to propagate the Filipino Martial Arts. However but why should I blindly take this guy's words as regards to terms when he invents words such as KINOMUTAI? He has not even visited the Philippines to really get a feel of what real Filipino martial arts culture or filipino culture in general reallly is.

He has been a strong advocate of the MAPHILINDO term, but if he would have visited the Philippines and stayed here for at least a year, then, he would have felt how the Philippine's culture is unique compared to Malaysia and Indonesia. He will see how the Filipino culture can be compared to Filipino food which is a weird mix of western and eastern cultures.

Nothing personal. I just want to know what you guys think?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: sheryn lascano on November 01, 2003, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: new guest
He has been a strong advocate of the MAPHILINDO term, but if he would have visited the Philippines and stayed here for at least a year, then, he would have felt how the Philippine's culture is unique compared to Malaysia and Indonesia. He will see how the Filipino culture can be compared to Filipino food which is a weird mix of western and eastern cultures.


i'm a filipina.  and i've also spent considerable time in indonesia and malaysia.  there are more close similarities between these 3 countries, than they do differences.  it's been said that if you speak ilokano, bisaya, and tagalog, you'll survive pretty well in malaysia and indonesia, which is very true.  if the linguistics similarities are so close, then it's pretty safe to say that many other cultural similarities exists as well--i.e. martial arts.  mr. inosanto recognized this and has promoted the very similarities in the martial arts.

so, how does this relate to the KALI discussion?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: old guest on November 01, 2003, 08:37:50 PM
Quote from: beatnik warrior
below is also a good point... i believe studies have shown that the word KALI actually came from a popular Visayan word KALIBANGA'.  i've heard people say that this ancient word has been around since time began in the islands.  i think it has something to do with the water or the food found there.  it's worth looking into...


So, what does kalibanga mean?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: older guest on November 01, 2003, 09:09:33 PM
Quote
i'm a filipina. and i've also spent considerable time in indonesia and malaysia. there are more close similarities between these 3 countries, than they do differences. it's been said that if you speak ilokano, bisaya, and tagalog, you'll survive pretty well in malaysia and indonesia, which is very true. if the linguistics similarities are so close, then it's pretty safe to say that many other cultural similarities exists as well--i.e. martial arts. mr. inosanto recognized this and has promoted the very similarities in the martial arts.

so, how does this relate to the KALI discussion?


I do not believe so that if you know ilokano bisaya and tagalog that you will surviv pretty well in malaysia and indonesia. Come to think of it, a pangasinense who only speaks pure pangalatok can not even survive speaking to person who speaks pure hilgaynon or bisaya, how much more can a pangasinense trying to go to malaysia and trying to buy ice kachang from a store in Kuala Lumpur from a pure bahasa speaker?

 THe author wrote "unique" and did not mention similarities. I would agree with you that there are similarities, but it's like comparing the Brazilians from Argentinians....they are both similar but unique alot of ways, both are in South America, Latin roots, but one dances the samba and the other has Argentinian tango. ONe has capoeria and the other has probably some other art. ONe speaks and was a Portuguese colony the other Spanish. Both eat beef but cook them differently.

The authors point in writing it was probablly Mr. Inosantos word is taken like Bible truth by most people in the US and isnt this thread about terms?So I think his argument is withn th e context of this thread.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: jimb on November 01, 2003, 10:29:52 PM
obviously you've never visited or traveled to these countries.  mr. inosanto has traveled extensively and therefore has become the authority in these matters.  i for one, agree with mr. inosanto's view on the very close similarities of malaysian, indonesian, and filipino martial arts, among other facets of their similar cultures.  if you cannot see the linguistic similarities atleast, then i'd have to assume you only attended high school and are ignorant of these matters.  which puts you in a lower position than those who have travelled and learned.

but, more importantly, what is your point? and how does it relate of the ongoing discussion about KALI? did Kali really come from the word Kalibanga?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on November 01, 2003, 11:25:39 PM
Quote from: joey
Quote from: Guest
When I asked to learn the Cebuano terms from my stickfighting coach, he poo-poop'ed it and discouraged me from inquiring further.  In the many years I trained with him, I may have learned maybe a half a dozen terms.


maybe he just didn't want u to learn cebuano, period!!! most balintawak teachers don't teach their non-filipino students the cebuano terms cuz they usually hold certain information back, including techniques.


Yeah,  I guess he was holding back.  That is why he used to drive me over to his house on weekends to train me extra and for free.  He insisted on me training more with him on top of the normal classes and his busy schedule.  I am sure he had better things to do since he was quite well off  planning for retirement, had a boat and liked ocean fishing, spending time with his wife, and having his daughter or relatives visit.  Yep - that must be it.  He was holding back.  Bummer.  I really got burned.    :lol:     :roll:
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on November 01, 2003, 11:50:04 PM
Quote from: Spadaccino
Quote from: Guest

Who cares what they call it and what terms are used?  The shit just works.  In fact, they can call it shit but if it works - it works.


-snip-

Then, when some folks question the switch to historically invalid terms like "kali", others simply blow it off by saying "who cares what it's called, as long as it works?"

Quote
Anything else discussed is pointless... unless you are spending more time being a history buff or hoplologist than training.  'Nuff said.


Ah yes, the ol' macho "we should only be training" bit.  What about folks who are both hoplologists AND serious martial artists--like the late founder of modern hoplology himself, Donn F. Draeger?  How do folks like him fit into your equation?

I'm sorry if any of the above offends anyone (it's honestly not meant to), but I've seen Guest's line of argument too many times in the past, and I'm a little weary of it.

Peace,

David Black Mastro/TFS


Rebuttal to the two points...

The terms don't really matter to me... really.  You can call it whatever you like including an ice cream sundae.  I guess people like to identify with something and be part of a collective.  No problem.  I can respect that.  I just do not place emphasis on it.

As for Don Draeger, I highly respect people like him and that research into such subjects.  The same can be said of John Gilby / Robert Smith.  There are many others who research into such topics of the fighting traditions of various cultures.  Some societies even preserve such knowledge and it never sees the light of day.  Intriguing to read and very provocative.  For me, if all that research does not produce, substantiate, or make revelation any lost knowledge for constructive use or application then it is spinning one's wheels.  But that is just me.

I guess my focus is in a different place but I respect anybody that goes with their passion.   Not my cup of tea, though.  At a certain point it does become pointless.  More power to those that can dig up truths for the rest of us.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Spadaccino on November 02, 2003, 05:20:05 AM
Quote from: sheryn lascano
i'm a filipina.  and i've also spent considerable time in indonesia and malaysia.  there are more close similarities between these 3 countries, than they do differences.  it's been said that if you speak ilokano, bisaya, and tagalog, you'll survive pretty well in malaysia and indonesia, which is very true.  if the linguistics similarities are so close, then it's pretty safe to say that many other cultural similarities exists as well--i.e. martial arts.  mr. inosanto recognized this and has promoted the very similarities in the martial arts.


Hi Sheryn,

With all due respect to both Mr. Inosanto (the man is awesome--and my own teacher trained under him for some time) and you, how can you come to such a conclusion?  Similarities in linguistics are not necessarily synonymous with similiarities in martial arts.  

Besides, how would one then account for the fact that something like 60% of FMA terms are in Spanish?

I could show you umbrella blocks and snake disarms from 15th century German fechtbuchs, which predate any known European contact with the Philippines.  This doesn't mean that those techniques were "invented" in late Medieval or Renaissance Germany--it simply means that different martial peoples came up with similar solutions to similar problems, at different times.

Likewise, while I certainly don't feel that FMA came from Spanish fencing (and this is stressed by both Filipino martial artists in general, as well as modern classical fencing exponents, like Ramon Martinez), there are clearly some similarities with the two--how much of this overlap is actually due to a cross-cultural exchange, and how much is the result of "parallel evolution", is anybody's guess.  Ultimately it doesn't matter, but the relationship was not lost on several prominent FMA practitioners over the years.  Jose Rizal, in addition to being an arnisador, also studied Spanish esgrima, both in the Philippines at the Tanghalan ng Sandata, and in Spain.  More modern masters have noted similarities as well, such as Amante P. Marinas, who has written on this subject numerous times.

What this all boils down to is the truly unique position that the Philippine Islands occupy in the MA world--being that "martial arts crossroads".  Again, there are influences from many Asian martial arts, as well as some European ones, that are represented in FMA as a whole.  This doesn't make FMA any less "Filipino"--not one bit.

Respectfully,

David Black Mastro
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Spadaccino on November 02, 2003, 05:24:23 AM
Quote from: Guest
Quote from: Spadaccino
Quote from: Guest

Who cares what they call it and what terms are used?  The shit just works.  In fact, they can call it shit but if it works - it works.


-snip-

Then, when some folks question the switch to historically invalid terms like "kali", others simply blow it off by saying "who cares what it's called, as long as it works?"

Quote
Anything else discussed is pointless... unless you are spending more time being a history buff or hoplologist than training.  'Nuff said.


Ah yes, the ol' macho "we should only be training" bit.  What about folks who are both hoplologists AND serious martial artists--like the late founder of modern hoplology himself, Donn F. Draeger?  How do folks like him fit into your equation?

I'm sorry if any of the above offends anyone (it's honestly not meant to), but I've seen Guest's line of argument too many times in the past, and I'm a little weary of it.

Peace,

David Black Mastro/TFS


Rebuttal to the two points...

The terms don't really matter to me... really.  You can call it whatever you like including an ice cream sundae.  I guess people like to identify with something and be part of a collective.  No problem.  I can respect that.  I just do not place emphasis on it.

As for Don Draeger, I highly respect people like him and that research into such subjects.  The same can be said of John Gilby / Robert Smith.  There are many others who research into such topics of the fighting traditions of various cultures.  Some societies even preserve such knowledge and it never sees the light of day.  Intriguing to read and very provocative.  For me, if all that research does not produce, substantiate, or make revelation any lost knowledge for constructive use or application then it is spinning one's wheels.  But that is just me.

I guess my focus is in a different place but I respect anybody that goes with their passion.   Not my cup of tea, though.  At a certain point it does become pointless.  More power to those that can dig up truths for the rest of us.


Fair enough.

Peace,

David Black Mastro
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: joey on November 02, 2003, 08:01:53 AM
great post!!! but, have you also considered inquiring from others who use the title KALI? like kali illustrisimo, pekiti tirsia kali, villabrille/largusa kali, sayoc kali, kamatuuran kali, etc. ??? they just might have the answers you're looking for...

Quote from: beatnik warrior
http://www.atienzakali.com/Forum/messages/551.html

Quote from: Lorna Atienza
Our culture is so deeply entrenched with other cultures that came to the Philippines before, during and after the spanish time. and should we forget that the name for our country "Philipines" came from the name Phillip of Spain? Who knows what our country was called before it was dubbed "Philippines?"
I remember Pop and I discussing where/how the term "kali" was used as an altername for arnis.
Kali is a Goddess(Hindu?)that has numerous arms (about 6 or eight), and each hand ( that is connected to each arm, of course) holds a sword or a weapon. When the movement in arnis/kali/whatever is done, it is so fast and so effective/deadly that it is as if the individual has several weaponed hands. He read this somewhere.
This could have been an opinion of an author. It could have been an Indian author. Who knows?
Does'nt this make sense?


so, now KALI is hindu? that?s kinda reaching it.

Quote from: Allain Atienza
As a Filipino in the United States, surrounded by other cultures and encouraged to investigate one?s own heritage, it?s not good enough to know that ?Magellan brought Christianity and so the story of the Philippines began?? Many of our older countrymen are satisfied with this, yet it is important to delve and research and find out more. Many more young Filipinos are learning the Baybayin scripts (the funny Elvish writing on our website) Many others, when learning that Malay traders sailed as far as Madagascar, are filled with pride, knowing that they come from a race and culture that is not just a bastard offshoot of local Asians and Conquistadors.
So? Kali, or Arnis or Escrima?
In reality, one is just as good as the other, and I use them interchangeably at times. But in my opinion, the term kali, although it may not be as old or established as the other names, carries with it a cultural implication, a leaning towards questions and answers about the deepness our culture.
Now what would be really cool is if someone really researched and found out what we called the Art before the Spaniards came. I?m guessing they just called it ?fighting? Something like ?Laban-laban? Maybe they called it "Bong"


it would be really cool if someone did research, but until then people shouldn?t just arbitrarily use words with no historical support.

and, if it is indeed 300 yrs old, where is the minimum proof?

Quote
Then why use Kali over the other names, which have to be at least three hundred years older? (Give or take, I?m bad at math)
Well, I remember being initially taught Arnis de Mano, and everything was fine and happy. But in the late 70?s, the word Kali popped up (I don?t know who started it) and it was well received here in the East Coast. My father, who was ever hungry for any information about the Philippines and our culture before the coming of the Spanish, loved that there was a word being widely used to describe our Art that did not come from our one-time conquerors. I never learned that it was ?older? or more ?accurate? than Arnis or Escrima, only that it didn?t originate from Spain. There were others who resisted the new term, who clung to the older nomenclature, feeling that it was more traditional. Yet many students of the Art, most of them young and swept up in the cultural self-awareness that was just gaining momentum in the 70?s, embraced the alternative out of cultural pride.


i just visited the Atienza site and found the thread you were referring to, russ.  i took the quotes above and posted it here, to make a point that even the ones who use the word KALI do not even know how they came to use this word.

this relates to the whole issue of historicity. now, of course this doesn't take anything away from their skill.  and we are not attacking their art, but instead trying to figure out where and how the title KALI began.

now, if the one's who readily use the word KALI do not even know the origins of this word, then it's pretty easy to deduce that this word isn't the 'ancient' name, but rather an unacademic attempt to rename and 'filipinize' FMA here in the US, to replace the spanish terms already in use since the 1700s in the Philippines.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on November 02, 2003, 08:06:44 AM
Quote
Yeah,  I guess he was holding back.  That is why he used to drive me over to his house on weekends to train me extra and for free.  He insisted on me training more with him on top of the normal classes and his busy schedule.  I am sure he had better things to do since he was quite well off  planning for retirement, had a boat and liked ocean fishing, spending time with his wife, and having his daughter or relatives visit.


sounds very romantic!!! more power to you both and hope everything works out in the future!!! as for me, san francisco is a great place to visit, but i wouldn't live there.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on November 03, 2003, 12:43:34 AM
Quote from: Anonymous
Quote
Yeah,  I guess he was holding back.  That is why he used to drive me over to his house on weekends to train me extra and for free.  He insisted on me training more with him on top of the normal classes and his busy schedule.  I am sure he had better things to do since he was quite well off  planning for retirement, had a boat and liked ocean fishing, spending time with his wife, and having his daughter or relatives visit.


sounds very romantic!!! more power to you both and hope everything works out in the future!!! as for me, san francisco is a great place to visit, but i wouldn't live there.


Love is stronger than hate, they say.  Whoever said anything about San Fran?  Maybe you might be able to make it out to San Fran when the parole board finally says it is OK.  I heard that sunny weather helps with ricketts developed while in solitary.  I guess some people like to stay in the joint especially when they get back to general population.  Why go to Castro street for the hunt when you can get it for free while bending over for the soap in the shower?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on November 03, 2003, 01:07:38 AM
Quote from: joey
great post!!! but, have you also considered inquiring from others who use the title KALI? like kali illustrisimo, pekiti tirsia kali, villabrille/largusa kali, sayoc kali, kamatuuran kali, etc. ??? they just might have the answers you're looking for...

-snip-

this relates to the whole issue of historicity. now, of course this doesn't take anything away from their skill. and we are not attacking their art, but instead trying to figure out where and how the title KALI began.

now, if the one's who readily use the word KALI do not even know the origins of this word, then it's pretty easy to deduce that this word isn't the 'ancient' name, but rather an unacademic attempt to rename and 'filipinize' FMA here in the US, to replace the spanish terms already in use since the 1700s in the Philippines.
[/quote]

Observation 1 - EHHHHHHHH!  Got that one wrong!  It's "KALIS" Illustrisimo.  Get with the program or don't get it at all.  Looks like you haven't been correctly informed or have not enlightened yourself wholly, either.  Looks like po - tay - toe, po - ta - toe / to - may - toe, to - ma - toe applies here, buddy.

Observation 2 - When you attack the validity of somebody's name, you attack their art.  Plain and simple.  Looks like you are doing some attacking to me.  It's like calling caviar = shit.

Observation 3 - So your deduction of an unacademic attempt is just as bogus by association.  You claim to surmise from unsubstantiated information on origins and offer an alternate explanation instead.  You blew it by claiming it's not an opinion so your musings could be equally full of holes like swiss cheese.  Further speculation to substantiate the Spanish origins, without any proof of your own, is equally flawed and questionable in agenda, intent, and motivation.  You contradict yourself by doing the same thing.  Better check your foil beanie for leakage or go back to CSICOP and brush up those debunking skills.  You do know you are talking about history don't you?  It is about as accurate as SCUD missles being lead to the target by blind guide dogs.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on November 03, 2003, 04:57:52 AM
Woof Folks:

  Let's play nice now please , , ,

Crafty
Title: KALI
Post by: Sun_Helmet on November 03, 2003, 05:19:43 AM
In the Philippines, an indigenous survival fighting art always existed in some form. There was no consolidated TERM for it, so people named it what they wanted to name it. If they called it anything at all.

When the Spanish arrived they influenced the language of many Filipinos through Conquesta, it was common for Spaniards to record events using their practice of historical omission. Therefore, some began calling their fighting arts using Spanish lingual influences like Arnis and Eskrima - nothing wrong with that.

Vincente Rafael (Ph. D. in SE Asian History from Cornell University and professor of History at the University of Hawaii), listed Spanish accounts of how the Tagals easily assimilated the manner of dress, and even their written alphabet- so different from their own native script (Alibata). The only thing that separated the Indio from the Castilian was their speech. Tagals who were unarmed (talking guns and a united militia) and under Spanish occupation lived in constant fear when a Spaniard who had the power to shoot them on the spot would approach them. Externally, a Tagal could mimic Spanish dress - but within them was an uncertainty; they were disguised as Spaniards but they could not understand what the Castilian was trying to say. They did not know if they were being mocked or put to death.

In 1610 a Tagal printer named Tomas Pinpin devised a way to alleviate the shock of the Castilian. In hopes that his people would understand the Spaniard from the INSIDE, expose and take away their secret alien speech. He printed the first book of translation and lesson for the Tagal reader. Pinpin believed that to be able to engage in a linguistic exchange with the Spanish is to take away the fear. They could better gauge Spanish intentions. Vincente wrote, " Tagalogs such as Pinpin would thus have at their disposal a way to inoculate themselves against the larger shock of conquest." The Filipino immunization from within began and in time the Tagals were now in control of their own secret language. They knew the enemy's thoughts while the enemy was lulled into thinking they would stand to rule forever.

The Spanish themselves acknowledged a form of indigenous fighting existed prior to their arrival.

The root words of many Filipino terms depicting war are not Spanish at all, but rooted in Sanskrit. From the influence of the SriVisayan / Filipino commerce that existed well before the arrival of Islam and Spain. (Read William Henry Scott's book Barangay)

Today, some Filipinos acknowledge that and refer to this Filipino survival fighting art as KALI. It does not mean it was called KALI back then, but they refer to the consolidated Filipino native arts as Kali because they do not want to call it the terms which the Spanish influenced speakers called it. It is their prerogative as modern day warriors.

Thus, I can understand when people call KALI the MOTHER ART. It states the arts were there prior to Spain and IF one wants to use a term for it- why not use a Sanskrit based one.  Sanskrit is the calligraphy from which our alibata is based. Sanskrit is the language from which the word "Maharlika" originates. Sanskrit terms existed in the islands prior to Spain's arrival.

One could just say these fighting arts (KALI, ARNIS, ESKRIMA) represent the BLOOD of the NATION. For that is what our ancestors paid for it.

Here's when things begin to get hairy...

Due to miscommunication, mistranslation or outright deception by others, the term KALI has been a thorn for other Filipinos who favor the terms, ARNIS, ESKRIMA. For many it denotes a sort of cultural elitism that may or may not have been intended.

However,

The term for the collective Present day Philippine Island's Martial Art / Mother Art can be anything we choose to call it today. KALI... ARNIS... ESKRIMA... FMA... FFA ...etc. That's because the art is alive and evolving the way combative arts are supposed to.

No one knows what the ancients called their fighting methods. Yet some of us don't want to call it what the Spaniards called it. It is our prerogative as warriors, as modern Maharlikas. There's no shame in the terms Arnis or Eskrima. But don't shame anyone who wishes otherwise. That's what Divide and conquer tactics were all about.

Call it what you want, because prior to the Spaniards... our ancestors did.

--Rafael--
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Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Russ Iger on November 03, 2003, 07:17:03 AM
Thanks for writing Sun Helmet!

I know you are busy these days, so I wasn't sure if we'd be able to get your expertise in this matter.

Thanks again,
Russ
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on November 03, 2003, 07:34:31 AM
Thanks Sun Helmet.  We can always expect you to up the ante in quality when you enlighten us.  It is quite appreciated.

Crafty Dog - my apologies.  I don't tolerate trolls and think they should be dealt with extreme prejudice.  I can only thump them with the same weapons they attack with.  I will leave you to do that with your equally fearsome and astute moderator skills.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: No Offense Meant on November 03, 2003, 09:56:21 AM
Quote


Observation 1 - EHHHHHHHH!  Got that one wrong!  It's "KALIS" Illustrisimo.  Get with the program or don't get it at all.  Looks like you haven't been correctly informed or have not enlightened yourself wholly, either.  Looks like po - tay - toe, po - ta - toe / to - may - toe, to - ma - toe applies here, buddy.

Observation 2 - When you attack the validity of somebody's name, you attack their art.  Plain and simple.  Looks like you are doing some attacking to me.  It's like calling caviar = shit.

Observation 3 - So your deduction of an unacademic attempt is just as bogus by association.  You claim to surmise from unsubstantiated information on origins and offer an alternate explanation instead.  You blew it by claiming it's not an opinion so your musings could be equally full of holes like swiss cheese.  Further speculation to substantiate the Spanish origins, without any proof of your own, is equally flawed and questionable in agenda, intent, and motivation.  You contradict yourself by doing the same thing.  Better check your foil beanie for leakage or go back to CSICOP and brush up those debunking skills.  You do know you are talking about history don't you?  It is about as accurate as SCUD missles being lead to the target by blind guide dogs.


observation 1: who cares if it's KALI or KALIs, you still haven't offered any proof!!!

observation 2: sorry, didn't know you were that sensitive. (and caviar does taste like shit!!!, but that?s just my proletariat taste)

observation 3: you needn't write a whole essay illustrating how much you've been hurt by this very enlightening discussion. instead you should've used all that energy offering relevant historical proofs.  but you didn't or couldn?t.


luckily though, Sun Helmet, has offered a great outline of explanations (thank you by the way, Sun Helmet).  i guess it's safe to assume that KALI as a title has no historical factual relevance, but instead has a modern symbolic meaning which is used to envelope the whole of filipino martial arts today, while also giving an 'indigenous' sounding/exotic roll to the tongue.

if eveyone agrees to this, then i think our discussion is finished.  KALI has no historical, cultural evidence, but it has taken a modern connotation.  KALI has come to be the arbirary modern word to replace the Spanish/Filipinized term, eskrima.  but, some would rather just use the 'foreign' traditional eskrima, than having to create a new arbitrary word like KALI.
 
Quote from: Sun Helmet
Today, some Filipinos acknowledge that and refer to this Filipino survival fighting art as KALI. It does not mean it was called KALI back then, but they refer to the consolidated Filipino native arts as Kali because they do not want to call it the terms which the Spanish influenced speakers called it. It is their prerogative as modern day warriors.


if people still think they can prove KALI's historicity, please to so without personal attacks--this is an academic discussion, not a full contact sparring session (try to use that other powerful tool located inside your head).
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: No Offense Meant on November 03, 2003, 09:57:46 AM
Quote


Observation 1 - EHHHHHHHH!  Got that one wrong!  It's "KALIS" Illustrisimo.  Get with the program or don't get it at all.  Looks like you haven't been correctly informed or have not enlightened yourself wholly, either.  Looks like po - tay - toe, po - ta - toe / to - may - toe, to - ma - toe applies here, buddy.

Observation 2 - When you attack the validity of somebody's name, you attack their art.  Plain and simple.  Looks like you are doing some attacking to me.  It's like calling caviar = shit.

Observation 3 - So your deduction of an unacademic attempt is just as bogus by association.  You claim to surmise from unsubstantiated information on origins and offer an alternate explanation instead.  You blew it by claiming it's not an opinion so your musings could be equally full of holes like swiss cheese.  Further speculation to substantiate the Spanish origins, without any proof of your own, is equally flawed and questionable in agenda, intent, and motivation.  You contradict yourself by doing the same thing.  Better check your foil beanie for leakage or go back to CSICOP and brush up those debunking skills.  You do know you are talking about history don't you?  It is about as accurate as SCUD missles being lead to the target by blind guide dogs.


observation 1: who cares if it's KALI or KALIs, you still haven't offered any proof!!!

observation 2: sorry, didn't know you were that sensitive. (and caviar does taste like shit!!!, but that?s just my proletariat taste)

observation 3: you needn't write a whole essay illustrating how much you've been hurt by this very enlightening discussion. instead you should've used all that energy offering relevant historical proofs.  but you didn't or couldn?t.


luckily though, Sun Helmet, has offered a great outline of explanations (thank you by the way, Sun Helmet).  i guess it's safe to assume that KALI as a title has no historical factual relevance, but instead has a modern symbolic meaning which is used to envelope the whole of filipino martial arts today, while also giving an 'indigenous' sounding/exotic roll to the tongue.

if eveyone agrees to this, then i think our discussion is finished.  KALI has no historical, cultural evidence, but it has taken a modern connotation.  KALI has come to be the arbirary modern word to replace the Spanish/Filipinized term, eskrima.  but, some would rather just use the 'foreign' traditional eskrima, than having to create a new arbitrary word like KALI.
 
Quote from: Sun Helmet
Today, some Filipinos acknowledge that and refer to this Filipino survival fighting art as KALI. It does not mean it was called KALI back then, but they refer to the consolidated Filipino native arts as Kali because they do not want to call it the terms which the Spanish influenced speakers called it. It is their prerogative as modern day warriors.


if people still think they can prove KALI's historicity, please to so without personal attacks--this is an academic discussion, not a full contact sparring session (try to use that other powerful tool located inside your head).
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: joey ayala on November 03, 2003, 10:10:08 AM
a GREAT summation!!! bravo, now we know, and "knowing is half the battle" (GI Joe).

now, we can all go to lunch!!! CASE closed. COURT adjourned.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on November 03, 2003, 03:58:26 PM
Woof All:

  There are various reasons for the use of the term "Kali".  Some are as described by the critics of the word.  And some are not.  

When used in the critical perjorative way against those who have other reasons, what communicates is a personally insulting tone/intent, and demands of proof can come across with a tone of "justify yourself to me" which tends to lead to "go fornicate yourself rejoinder" and Voila! -- a conversation devoid of forward purpose.

For the record, I believe the term to have historical merit.  If you don't, I have no urge to persuade you.  

But some of those that don't believe the term to be historically accurate, take an additional step and cast aspersions upon those who do.  

Whatever.

The simple fact is that there is very little agreement about many, if not most things in Filipino history-- yet many seem determined to believe theirs as the one true version.    

I've been around a while and I've heard countless times about Filipinos saying that the term is a fraud.  Of course, the next stop in the syllogism is "How dare you, a euro-american, dare to disagree?!?"

OK, here's my teacher PG Edgar Sulite from an interview in Martial Arts presents "Filipino Martial Arts" (Graciella Casillas on cover)

ES: "In Mindanao, "kali" was the term used, but that doesn't mean it was the only one. , , , We must remember that according to the region where you live, the terms change and others apply such as 'estocada' and 'pagkalikali' and more"  

Amongst the informed, the depth and breadth of PG ES's travels and trainings in the RP are well known, and many of these people may have heard of his book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima", an amazing collection of interviews and essays on various masters of the arts from around the RP.

You want to research?  Don't ask me to do your work for you-- I've been down this road too many times and found it lead too often to exactly where some would take this thread right now--  go find and read the book yourself!

The Villabrille-Largusa people use the term Kali from a historical base.   (see e.g. Tuhon Largusa in "DBMA#1: The Grandfathers Speak") and have vigorously defended its use over the internet, see e.g. various threads over the years on Ray Terry's "Eskrima Digest").  Get in touch with them if you like.

So anyway, what are we to do?  Have a duel?!?  Oh whoops, we can't do that-- no one challenged/disrespected PG Edgar's or GM Villabrille's use of the term to their face while they were alive.  Well then, how about a trial by compurgation to solve the discrepancies amongst the sundry Filipinos with opinions on this?!? That would really settle it.  Oy vey.  :roll:

BTW, Currently Roland Dantes writes of indigenous use of the term in the south.  Go find him in Mindanao and tell him how and why he's wrong.

Like these people we think the term is historically valid, we like it and we use it.   If you don't, it is perfectly OK by me and I have no need or interest in changing your mind-- but it really is beyond me how anyone, Filipino or not, can claim to speak authoritatively on matters linguistic throughout the entirety of the Philippine Archipelago-- and into Indonesia to boot!

If you want 'proof' I ain't the man to give it.  Go elsewhere.  But if you tell me this proves that there is no proof, what comes across is that you are telling me that I am either a fool or a bullexcrementer and with that comes the predictable rejoinder , , ,


Crafty Dog
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Spadaccino on November 03, 2003, 06:23:39 PM
Hello All,

Great thread...

As usual I have come away knowing more than I did before--thanks to everyone, especially the always informative Sun_Helmet!

Peace,

Dave/TFS
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on November 03, 2003, 11:39:41 PM
Quote from: No Offense Meant
Quote


observation 1: who cares if it's KALI or KALIs, you still haven't offered any proof!!!



I don't need to offer proof.  I don't have a problem with it.  Seems likes you do and continue to.  Obviously something needs to be proven to you and you, in the immortal words of the Rolling Stones, can't get no satisfaction.

Quote


observation 2: sorry, didn't know you were that sensitive. (and caviar does taste like shit!!!, but that?s just my proletariat taste)



Nah - you weren't hurting my feelings at all.  Apology accepted, though.  So then you admit that you are plebian.  Looks like we straightened that out.

Quote


observation 3: you needn't write a whole essay illustrating how much you've been hurt by this very enlightening discussion. instead you should've used all that energy offering relevant historical proofs.  but you didn't or couldn?t.



Actually, it is getting pretty funny.  As for what I should do, I don't think I should have to do anything.  Whether I didn't or couldn't is my perogative.  Although you are correct  about conserving energy.  I have been squandering it some of it in replying.



luckily though, Sun Helmet, has offered a great outline of explanations (thank you by the way, Sun Helmet).  i guess it's safe to assume that KALI as a title has no historical factual relevance, but instead has a modern symbolic meaning which is used to envelope the whole of filipino martial arts today, while also giving an 'indigenous' sounding/exotic roll to the tongue.

[/quote]

I think you better go back and read it again.  It may be safe for you to assume what you want to believe although I don't think that was what the gist of what he was trying to convey.  It did not come across to me that way.

[/quote]

if eveyone agrees to this, then i think our discussion is finished.  KALI has no historical, cultural evidence, but it has taken a modern connotation.  KALI has come to be the arbirary modern word to replace the Spanish/Filipinized term, eskrima.  but, some would rather just use the 'foreign' traditional eskrima, than having to create a new arbitrary word like KALI.

[/quote]

I have not seen a consensus at all relating to what  you are offering as an opinion.  in fact, it seems to be the contrary.  It looks like you have come to this summation all by your lonesome at this point.

[/quote]

if people still think they can prove KALI's historicity, please to so without personal attacks--this is an academic discussion, not a full contact sparring session (try to use that other powerful tool located inside your head).

[/quote]

Funny - I thought it was just trolling.  If it is an academic discussion why not contribute some of your own proof citing academic texts rather than inferring your own specualtion?  If you claim it was your opinion, that is one thing.  You came across that what you say is fact.  When somebody's answer did not satisfactorily fit your paradigm, you skew it to your perspective or re-interpret it.  If you are going to rebuttal anybody, why not offer some facts of your own instead of being argumentative or provocative?  As for tools, I meet too many of them.  I prefer to keep them out of my head.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 04, 2003, 12:39:42 PM
Quote
PG Edgar Sulite from an interview in Martial Arts presents "Filipino Martial Arts" (Graciella Casillas on cover)

ES: "In Mindanao, "kali" was the term used, but that doesn't mean it was the only one. We must remember that according to the region where you live, the terms change and others apply such as 'estocada' and 'pagkalikali' and more"

Amongst the informed, the depth and breadth of PG ES's travels and trainings in the RP are well known, and many of these people may have heard of his book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima", an amazing collection of interviews and essays on various masters of the arts from around the RP.


Ah yes, the exoticizing of Mindanao once again... I was born and raised in Kabacan, Mindanao, located a few hours away from Cotabato City.  My parents were Mormon missionaries who went to Mindanao in the 1960s from Idaho.  Kabacan at this time was a focal point in Central Mindanao because of its newly established college?Mindanao Institute of Technology, later named Southern Mindanao University.  

The ethno-linguistic groups present in central Mindanao, then and now, were the Bisayas, Tagalogs, Ilongos, Kapangpangan and Ilokanos.  These represent the colonist groups encouraged by the newly formed Republic to populate Mindanao.  The major native ethno-linguistic groups were the Magindanaws and the Maranaws, with some Tausugs.  They were Muslim-Filipinos.  In addition to these major groups were the indigenous Mano?bos, Atas, T?boli, and others.

These various groups were well represented in Kabacan because of the college.  Although, I?m not Filipino by blood, having grown up in a close knit small college town in Mindanao, I became Filipino.  This means, I not only learned the culture, but the various languages as well.  I grew up with Muslim and Christian neighbors.  At the age of 7, I was taught how to defend myself.  But the title Eskrima never came to mind, until I began spending my summer breaks in Cebu.  The term used by my teachers had always been Pangamut (?pang? means to use, ?kamut? is hand).  Roughly translated, Pangamut means to be good with ones? hands.

Interestingly enough, the word ?KALI? was never used.  One of my teachers was a mixture of Maranaw and Tausug, his mother being of the latter group.  Yet, they used another term?not KALI or Pagkalikali.  I would later learn of the title Kali when I attended the University of the Philippines in Diliman, Manila.  And then learned more about it when I came to the US to attend BYU, in Utah.

Basically, as a white guy who grew up in the Philippines, in addition to having spent my childhood in Kabacan and spent a considerable amount of time in academia, I have little authority in the realm of culture and linguistics.  So, allow me to pose another perspective to the word ?pagkalikali?.  

The word pagkalikali is a verb.  It became a verb because of its prefix ?pag?, which basically means ?to?.  The root is Kali.  The repetition of ?Kali? denotes temporal continuity, it?s a very small and subtle difference to just saying pagKali.  One can take the noun of dance which is Sayaw, add ?pag? in front of it and it becomes ?to dance?, pagSayaw.  Interestingly, because Filipino culture and language is more inclusive than exclusive, you can also use foreign words with ?pag?.  An example would be ?thank you?, you can filipinize it and say, ?pagtankyo? (pagtankyo ni lola, ?thank your grandmother?, or in tagalog, ?magtankyo ka ni lola?).  Let?s take a modern phenomenon now in the Philippines, which is texting via cellphones.  To filipinize this word one simply adds ?pag? and repeat the root?pagtexttext.

The point I?m trying to make is that filipinization of a word doesn?t automatically mean it?s indiginenously Filipino. Maybe the word kali had already made it?s way to the Philippines by the 1970s, via the US.  But, the fact is that Kali is not used in Mindanao.  Maybe if you can specify an ethno-linguistic group who uses Kali we can examine it further.  But, Kali is not Tagalog, Bisaya, Ilongo, Ilokano, Kapangpangan, Maranaw, Tausug, nor is it Magindanaw.

On another note, regarding the book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima", I remember perusing through this book in a National Bookstore in Manila before I left for Utah in the early 90s.  What struck me more than any of it?s content was the number of Bisayan masters listed in the book.  I believe, if memory serves me right, of the 40 or so masters listed, about 35 or maybe less were Bisaya.  Many were from Cebu.

Which leads one to wonder why the word Kali, which is supposedly from Mindanao, is used as a title to one?s art, when historically the ?Moros? of Mindanao were arch enemies of the Bisayans.  Why would someone name their art using the enemy?s nomenclature?  Wasn?t this Sun Helmet?s point?  To use the nomenclature given by your enemy is the act of dishonoring one?s self.  According to Sun Helmet, this is why Kali from the Hindus of the Sri Visayan empire was used, to replace the titles given by the Spanish empire.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 04, 2003, 12:43:33 PM
Quote
The Villabrille-Largusa people use the term Kali from a historical base. (see e.g. Tuhon Largusa in "DBMA#1: The Grandfathers Speak") and have vigorously defended its use over the internet, see e.g. various threads over the years on Ray Terry's "Eskrima Digest"). Get in touch with them if you like.


If memory serves me right, it was actually this group that began the use of KALI in the bay area, San Francisco.  Let?s examine Mr. Villabrille?s saga? but, instead of using martial arts lens, let?s use the perspective of anthropologists and historians.  Mr. Floro Villabrille was born in Bantayan Island, Cebu.  He was Bisaya.  The word Bantayan came from the root bantay, which means to watch.  Literally it means to watch over, a strong hold to protect.  Specifically to protect from marauding Moros pirates from Mindanao.  This is how the Illustrisimo clan gained their reputation as fighters and protectors of this island.  Mr. Villabrille was related to the Illustrisimos.  He was a proven fighter, but more interestingly he credits the evolution of his skills to a blind ?princess? of Samar from the ?PULAHANE? tribe.  

Having studied and read about documented indigenous groups in the Philippines, I can tell you for a fact that there is no such tribe.  But, there was a Pulahanes movement, which sprang forth after the demise and defeat of the Kapipunan at the hands of the American military (look into Ileto?s Pasyon and Mojares? the War Against the Americans).  The Pulahanes movement was a collection of different pseudo-Christian millenerian groups.  Pula means red, for the red they wore. In comparison, the other groups in the Visayas that defied the Americans were dubbed the Tulisanes, unlike the more religiously inclined Pulahanes, the Tulisanes were basically just bandits and highway men.  The Pulahanes were around from the early 1900s to 1920s.  The movement began in Samar and eventually spread through Leyte, Bohol, Cebu, Negros, and Panay.  There is no mention of Mindanao in the Villabrille saga, except for maybe fighting a handful of Moros while he was young.   But, once again, why would a Bisaya name his art after his enemies? words, if Kali did indeed come from Mindanao?

We?ve had various explanations, from Kamut Lihok, to the Hindu Goddess Kali, to Kali is somewhere in Mindanao ?you just need to find it yourself?.  But, still no concrete proof possessing the credence of a prima facie showing.  Which puts us in the same place.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Spadaccino on November 04, 2003, 03:01:23 PM
Question Everything,

You picked an apt username.

Very interesting info.

Peace,

TFS
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on November 05, 2003, 02:49:25 AM
Thank you for the interesting posts QE.

A couple of questions and/or observations:

1) Like I've said, there's more than one reason for the use of the term and more than one theory as to its origin.  Sun Helmet has his reasons and that they do not include a historical basis, does not mean that there is not one.

2)  Allow me to repeat and underline what I have said from the beginning of this thread: I am not the man to make the historical case and that I have not done so proves nothing.  I have not sought to do so.  I have only directed you to other sources and challenged the assertion made here that the case against kali had been closed.  It has not.

3) I am not "exoticizing" diddly.  I've given sources, which I regard as worthy for those of you who want to follow up on it.  

4)  Concerning your analysis of the Villabrille use of the term, you mention the Illustrisimo clan.  Are you familiar with the portion of Tatang's Ilustrisimo's life spent with the Muslims and its importance to his art?

4)  Can you explain for us the repeated appearance of "kali"  in various FMA names from various dialects?  I understand your point that the term may have been imported and your theory that it may all have been brought back from 1970s California and diffused to the boondocks of the Philippines.   I confess this seems to me to be a bit of a stretch.  Are all of these terms of less than 30 years use?  Is there anyone out there who can comment upon all these terms?

5)  Any theories as to why Edgar Sulite (of whom I was a private student during all of his years in the US btw) saw the term as historically valid?  I assure you, he wasn't 'exoticizing' it.  

6)  Any theories as to why Roland Dantes, who has/does live in the south states that the term is indigenous?  Or is he exoticizing it too?

7) GT Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali uses the term.  Don't tell me he used to use the term "Arnis"-- I know that-- but feel free to contact him and ask him why he now uses 'Kali' and what he believes to be the historical basis of the term.  

8) No dig here QE, but the question must be asked: what sense do you have that being a white mormon may have affected your exposure to indigenous arts in Mindanao?  How much exposure did you have?  Again, no personal dig.

For those of you looking for "proof", my sense of it is that there is much in the history of the Philippines that cannot be "proved".  We know of sophisiticated ancient Filipino alphabets, yet have virtually no record of them or what they were used to write.  We know that the Spaniards sought to destroy much in this regard.  We know who wrote most of the history we do have and gave them the name of their art.  

This leaves oral tradition-- and the Filipino tradition of arguing about language and terminology.   :)

Crafty Dog
Title: KALI
Post by: Sun_Helmet on November 05, 2003, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Sun Helmet has his reasons and that they do not include a historical basis, does not mean that there is not one.
Crafty Dog


This is true. My personal research have not unearthed any term CONSOLIDATING the ancient fighting arts of the islands, therefore I haven't given the word KALI an ancient historical basis as the MOTHER ART. However, someone somewhere came up with this term and that in itself requires some extended research all its own. Perhaps from that research, a springboard will lead to other paths which have been well covered by the vines of time.

On the Tulisanes movement, what began as a movement of banditry evolved to the what later became known as the Katipunan movement.

On the Pulahanes movement... during the Moro Wars the river called the Pulangi played a significant strategical role. Wondering if the Illustrisimo clan had any stories involving the battles around that river region.

Here's a tangent:
 
Are there any Spanish manuals which describe sinawali movements and concepts?

--Rafael--
Title: Re: KALI
Post by: Spadaccino on November 05, 2003, 01:01:47 PM
Quote from: Sun_Helmet
My personal research have not unearthed any term CONSOLIDATING the ancient fighting arts of the islands, therefore I haven't given the word KALI an ancient historical basis as the MOTHER ART. However, someone somewhere came up with this term and that in itself requires some extended research all its own. Perhaps from that research, a springboard will lead to other paths which have been well covered by the vines of time.


Rafael, what's your opinion on simply using the indigenous terms to describe individual systems, but referring collectively to the Filipino arts simply as "FMA"?

Quote
Here's a tangent:
 
Are there any Spanish manuals which describe sinawali movements and concepts?


Not that I'm personally aware of.

At a party at the salle I used to train at, I had the good fortune to meet with Maestro Ramon Martinez, and speak with him about fencing matters.  Certainly, in the destreza method at least, I don't see much that looks like what I know from FMA--certainly no sinawalli stuff.  Martinez has commented on the obvious differences, as has J. Christoph Amberger, in his essay from Mark Wiley's Arnis book.

Peace,

David/TFS
Title: Re: KALI
Post by: Sun_Helmet on November 05, 2003, 03:03:37 PM
Quote from: Spadaccino

Rafael, what's your opinion on simply using the indigenous terms to describe individual systems, but referring collectively to the Filipino arts simply as "FMA"?


I feel it is up to the individual person's taste and not something worth trying to consolidate. In my previous post, I stated I have no opinion against using such terms since the arts continue to evolve and successors will most likely change terminology along the way. Just as long as the practioner respectfully acknowledges the Filipinos or instructors who preserved the art when they learned it.

On Maestro Martinez; several years ago when we were visiting Guro Inosanto at a Queens seminar he remarked how alien the double stick methods were to him. He was looking at a basic heaven count.

For others who may be interested. Here's a small compilation of quotes regarding Pre-Hispanic Filipino warfare written by Miguel Legaspi himself. he didn't call it KALI but he was impressed with what seems to be a level of expertise beyond rudimentary one two type hacking:

All Quotes from Legaspi in Blair and Robertson, The Philippine Islands:

On Pre-Hispanic Filipino arms and dress:

"? all the natives had put on their wooden corselets and rope armor , and had armed themselves with their lances, shields, small cutlasses, and arrows; and that many plumes and varicolored headdresses were waving;"

At the town of Cangiungo ? more evidence of Filipinos with swords:

"They made signs that we should not disembark; pulled grass, Struck trees with their cutlasses, and threateningly mocked us. Seeing that in this case cajolery could not suffice, we withdrew in order not to disturb them; "

Legaspi mentions the Filipinos always being armed:

"The weapons generally used throughout the Filipinas are cutlasses and daggers; lances with iron points, one and one-half palms in length; lenguados enclosed in cloth sheaths, and a few bows and arrows. Whenever the natives leave their houses, even if it is only to go to the house of a neighbor, they carry these weapons; for they are always on the alert, and are mistrustful of one another."

A Gunting wound?:

"A soldier who went ashore received a wound in the hand. The wound was apparently small; and indeed it was through negligence of the wounded man himself that he died within two weeks."

Use of spears:

"the Indians, when they saw him, fell upon him and in a moment with great cruelty tore him to pieces, giving him at least thirty lance thrusts through the body."

Legaspi describes another tribe that used impact weapons and comments on their expertise:

"?with their hardened clubs, stones, and slings (which comprise their weapons, and which they manage very skillfully) they took the place of those who were fighting, and those who were fighting embarked in the canoes, and came also to the ships to trade."


--Rafael--
"The Indian campaign were not analogous. The Indian Wars were amateur melees compared with the insurrection (by Filipinos in Southern Luzon) waged in 1900?" pg. 138 Millett, The General (Robert L. Bullard, who helped track the Apache warrior, Geronimo)
Title: Re: KALI
Post by: Spadaccino on November 05, 2003, 03:13:29 PM
Quote from: Sun_Helmet
Quote from: Spadaccino

Rafael, what's your opinion on simply using the indigenous terms to describe individual systems, but referring collectively to the Filipino arts simply as "FMA"?


I feel it is up to the individual person's taste and not something worth trying to consolidate. In my previous post, I stated I have no opinion against using such terms since the arts continue to evolve and successors will most likely change terminology along the way. Just as long as the practioner respectfully acknowledges the Filipinos or instructors who preserved the art when they learned it.

On Maestro Martinez; several years ago when we were visiting Guro Inosanto at a Queens seminar he remarked how alien the double stick methods were to him. He was looking at a basic heaven count.

For others who may be interested. Here's a small compilation of quotes regarding Pre-Hispanic Filipino warfare written by Miguel Legaspi himself. he didn't call it KALI but he was impressed with what seems to be a level of expertise beyond rudimentary one two type hacking:

All Quotes from Legaspi in Blair and Robertson, The Philippine Islands:

On Pre-Hispanic Filipino arms and dress:

"? all the natives had put on their wooden corselets and rope armor , and had armed themselves with their lances, shields, small cutlasses, and arrows; and that many plumes and varicolored headdresses were waving;"

At the town of Cangiungo ? more evidence of Filipinos with swords:

"They made signs that we should not disembark; pulled grass, Struck trees with their cutlasses, and threateningly mocked us. Seeing that in this case cajolery could not suffice, we withdrew in order not to disturb them; "

Legaspi mentions the Filipinos always being armed:

"The weapons generally used throughout the Filipinas are cutlasses and daggers; lances with iron points, one and one-half palms in length; lenguados enclosed in cloth sheaths, and a few bows and arrows. Whenever the natives leave their houses, even if it is only to go to the house of a neighbor, they carry these weapons; for they are always on the alert, and are mistrustful of one another."

A Gunting wound?:

"A soldier who went ashore received a wound in the hand. The wound was apparently small; and indeed it was through negligence of the wounded man himself that he died within two weeks."

Use of spears:

"the Indians, when they saw him, fell upon him and in a moment with great cruelty tore him to pieces, giving him at least thirty lance thrusts through the body."

Legaspi describes another tribe that used impact weapons and comments on their expertise:

"?with their hardened clubs, stones, and slings (which comprise their weapons, and which they manage very skillfully) they took the place of those who were fighting, and those who were fighting embarked in the canoes, and came also to the ships to trade."


--Rafael--
"The Indian campaign were not analogous. The Indian Wars were amateur melees compared with the insurrection (by Filipinos in Southern Luzon) waged in 1900?" pg. 138 Millett, The General (Robert L. Bullard, who helped track the Apache warrior, Geronimo)


Some great material there, Rafael.

Peace,

David/TFS
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 06, 2003, 11:17:42 AM
Quote from: ?Crafty Dog?
but the question must be asked: what sense do you have that being a white mormon may have affected your exposure to indigenous arts in Mindanao? How much exposure did you have?

 
there?s two ways I can answer this question. One would be to just touch upon the shallow level and answer your question ala ?Kung Fu?, with David Caradine, and satiate the fetishization of ?white? among the ?indigenous? curiousity.  Which is one level of your question.  Or I can take it a little deeper and examine why such a question was asked and offer a critique.  I think since everybody has already been primed in this thread, we?ll concentrate on the question itself.

It?s been said that only Americans travel or visit other countries and call the people who live there, ?foreigners?.  Where the average person in world speaks atleast 2 languages, the US is the only nation which consistently is monolingual, and proud of it.  the US has successfully racialized everything.  A Mexican, Chinese, Indian who was born in the suburbs and speaks perfect American English, in the eyes of White Americans are still ?Mexican?, ?Chinese?, and ?Indian?.

it?s in this context that your question was asked, as an American, confined to one culture.  A culture defined through its hyper consumerist, highly commercialized, commodified, and racialized realities.  So, the question was how a white mormon (I?m non religious, by the way, what my parents would lovingly call an apostate) could associate with the ?others?, the indigenous.  And what level of exposure that association can ever be.

Having already explained that I was born into this small town, within the smaller college community, and speak/understand the various languages represented (I am fluent in Bisaya and Tagalog, with a working knowledge in Ilongo, Ilokano, Maranaw and Tausug).  The question of exposure should have already been answered.  This is where American culture (atleast the American culture which evolved in this recent century) comes in.  Only an American, having already outlined the above, can ask this question.  This is because the concept of the ?other?, the non-white, had been so normalized that most Americans see human relations through their racialized eyes.

The simple fact was that I was born there, two of the teachers that taught me the sword also carried me as a young child (one of which was my teacher who was half Maranaw, and Tausug.  A history teacher by profession, a sculptor by choice, and a warrior by birth), and I speak fluently.  Although I wish I could say it with more eloquence, I was one of them.  I was the child they watched grow up, along with my other childhood friends.  But, because Americans tend to always racialize relationships, the theme of suspicion intrudes this reality, hence the question you asked.

But, also this suspicion has another level, than just that of racialization.  The whole consumerist, commercialized, and commodified ?reality? also injects itself.  So, then you suspect, ?did I really get all of the art??, ?was my teacher holding back because I?m white??.  Did Mr. Sulite teach his ?Orihinal? group differently?  This is connected to your initial question.  And to answer it, most likely they were holding back, but not because of race, but because you?ve (I?m using ?you? here in general, not you personally) commodified it.  Instead of a student in a traditional way, you?ve made yourself a benefactor, not a student, a consumer. because you?ve commodified an art.

To answer your question? Physically and in spirit I possess the arts taught to me as a child.  But, more importantly the fact that I learned from a rural setting, later learning from an urban setting (Cebu City), having been born in a small close knit community, having teachers who also belonged in academia, speaking fluently, having spent a considerable amount of my academic career in Anthropology and Linguistics, I would have to say my exposure and knowledge of the culture is more than minimal.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 06, 2003, 11:22:38 AM
Quote from: Crafty Dog
but the question must be asked: what sense do you have that being a white mormon may have affected your exposure to indigenous arts in Mindanao? How much exposure did you have?

 
there?s two ways I can answer this question. One would be to just touch upon the shallow level and answer your question ala ?Kung Fu?, with David Caradine, and satiate the fetishization of ?white? among the ?indigenous? curiousity.  Which is one level of your question.  Or I can take it a little deeper and examine why such a question was asked and offer a critique.  I think since everybody has already been primed in this thread, we?ll concentrate on the question itself.

It?s been said that only Americans travel or visit other countries and call the people who live there, ?foreigners?.  Where the average person in world speaks atleast 2 languages, the US is the only nation which consistently is monolingual, and proud of it.  the US has successfully racialized everything.  A Mexican, Chinese, Indian who was born in the suburbs and speaks perfect American English, in the eyes of White Americans are still ?Mexican?, ?Chinese?, and ?Indian?.

it?s in this context that your question was asked, as an American, confined to one culture.  A culture defined through its hyper consumerist, highly commercialized, commodified, and racialized realities.  So, the question was how a white mormon (I?m non religious, by the way, what my parents would lovingly call an apostate) could associate with the ?others?, the indigenous.  And what level of exposure that association can ever be.

Having already explained that I was born into this small town, within the smaller college community, and speak/understand the various languages represented (I am fluent in Bisaya and Tagalog, with a working knowledge in Ilongo, Ilokano, Maranaw and Tausug).  The question of exposure should have already been answered.  This is where American culture (atleast the American culture which evolved in this recent century) comes in.  Only an American, having already outlined the above, can ask this question.  This is because the concept of the ?other?, the non-white, had been so normalized that most Americans see human relations through their racialized eyes.

The simple fact was that I was born there, two of the teachers that taught me the sword also carried me as a young child (one of which was my teacher who was half Maranaw, and Tausug.  A history teacher by profession, a sculptor by choice, and a warrior by birth), and I speak fluently.  Although I wish I could say it with more eloquence, I was one of them.  I was the child they watched grow up, along with my other childhood friends.  But, because Americans tend to always racialize relationships, the theme of suspicion intrudes this reality, hence the question you asked.

But, also this suspicion has another level, than just that of racialization.  The whole consumerist, commercialized, and commodified ?reality? also injects itself.  So, then you suspect, ?did I really get all of the art??, ?was my teacher holding back because I?m white??.  Did Mr. Sulite teach his ?Orihinal? group differently?  This is connected to your initial question.  And to answer it, most likely they were holding back, but not because of race, but because you?ve (I?m using ?you? here in general, not you personally) commodified it.  Instead of a student in a traditional way, you?ve made yourself a benefactor, not a student, a consumer. because you?ve commodified an art.

To answer your question? Physically and in spirit I possess the arts taught to me as a child.  But, more importantly the fact that I learned from a rural setting, later learning from an urban setting (Cebu City), having been born in a small close knit community, having teachers who also belonged in academia, speaking fluently, having spent a considerable amount of my academic career in Anthropology and Linguistics, I would have to say my exposure and knowledge of the culture is more than minimal.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 06, 2003, 11:29:07 AM
Quote
4) Concerning your analysis of the Villabrille use of the term, you mention the Illustrisimo clan. Are you familiar with the portion of Tatang's Ilustrisimo's life spent with the Muslims and its importance to his art?


of all your questions and observations, I thought this was the one which had more meat.  So, allow me to dissect it.  Yes, I am familiar with Mr. Illustrisimo?s saga (I?ve actually seen him move and was quite impressed).  He was a stowaway, having boarded a ship, I believe in Cebu City, was lost and eventually made way to Mindanao.  He lived with a Muslim family and further learned in their arts.  What?s important here is to figure out which ethno-linguistic group this Muslim family was from.  If they were Maranaw, Tausug, or Maguindanao, I can confidently say that the word KALI or any of its derivation is not present in the above languages.  But, there are lesser Muslim groups in Mindanao.  Then another important question is when he began using the word KALI public.  If memory serves me right, from my readings, Mr. Illustrisimo, or his club, began using the word KALI in the 1970s (after the popularization of the word Kali by Mr. Largusa in the 1960s).  Which places us back to the US.

Quote
A couple of questions and/or observations:

1) Like I've said, there's more than one reason for the use of the term and more than one theory as to its origin. Sun Helmet has his reasons and that they do not include a historical basis, does not mean that there is not one.


this is a flaw in reason.  If we were comparing two unsubstantiated ideas or theories, then one can say this.  But, there is no comparison here, there might be a comparison between eskrima and kali, of which eskrima would have historical substance, although a foreign one.  But, the point of discussion is the examination of the historicity of the term Kali.  I think I?ve successfully illustrated how much historical evidence is NOT present here.  To say, ?there is historical evidence, we just can?t produce it or explain it, but I?m sure there is one--somewhere? and this justifies my belief in it and use of it.  This is a flaw in reason. the fact of the matter is, if there?s no historical proof, then you either have to use another word or stop claiming it to be the ?ancient? name for an ancient art.  We?ve already poked several holes in the various theories posted so far, to effectively incapacitate those ideas.  And I?m sure there are no other theories which will possess a prima facie quality.

One should not justify his belief because others believe it, without evidence, But rather because you?ve examined this belief yourself to be possessing substantiable proof.

Quote
2) Allow me to repeat and underline what I have said from the beginning of this thread: I am not the man to make the historical case and that I have not done so proves nothing. I have not sought to do so. I have only directed you to other sources and challenged the assertion made here that the case against kali had been closed. It has not.


How could it not be?  Unless, you can come up with another theory, then we are at a close.  You should know this, having spent years in law school.  Without sufficient evidence you have no case.  Then this discussion becomes an empty discussion about faith, ?I?m sure there?s evidence somewhere out there, why else would people believe so strongly??, but this isn?t evidence.   They?ve been using the term KALI publicly for about 40 years now, yet people have still yet to substantiate it.  This should be done with ease.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 06, 2003, 11:32:52 AM
Quote
3) I am not "exoticizing" diddly. I've given sources, which I regard as worthy for those of you who want to follow up on it.
4) Can you explain for us the repeated appearance of "kali" in various FMA names from various dialects? I understand your point that the term may have been imported and your theory that it may all have been brought back from 1970s California and diffused to the boondocks of the Philippines. I confess this seems to me to be a bit of a stretch. Are all of these terms of less than 30 years use? Is there anyone out there who can comment upon all these terms?
5) Any theories as to why Edgar Sulite (of whom I was a private student during all of his years in the US btw) saw the term as historically valid? I assure you, he wasn't 'exoticizing' it.
6) Any theories as to why Roland Dantes, who has/does live in the south states that the term is indigenous? Or is he exoticizing it too?
7) GT Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali uses the term. Don't tell me he used to use the term "Arnis"-- I know that-- but feel free to contact him and ask him why he now uses 'Kali' and what he believes to be the historical basis of the term.

 
Part of the glamour of the word, is because it is exotic.  The fact that we can?t figure out where it came from is exotic.  Is it Indian Sanskrit? is it from the lost Djak tribe of Borneo? Is it from Mindanao? There is a certain aura of mystery.  And yes most Filipinos not from Mindanao tend to exoticize the Muslims of Mindanao.  Ask yourself how many Filipino Muslim masters you know of?  Mr. Sulite is Bisaya, Mr. Gaje is from Bacolod, Negros (but he did spend time in the East Coast of the US in the 70s), although I?m only familiar with Mr. Dantes in the movies, he is not a Muslim Filipino, all of them aren?t.  So, where is their linguistic evidence?  As I?ve stated, the word KALI is absent from the Maranaw, Tausug, and Magindanaw languages.  All they had to say was, ?So and So tribes in Mindanao uses the term Kali, and that?s why we use it??.  That solves it.  

But, then one has to wonder why Bisayans would have to go all the way to Mindanao to name their art? Because the masters who popularized FMA were mostly Bisayans (i.e. Mr. Sulite, Mr. Bacon, Mr. Canete, Mr. Illustrisimo, Mr. Villabrille, Mr. Lacoste, Mr. Caballero, Mr. Dizon (of which Mr. Cabales studied under), and Mr. Gaabucayan).  The theme of exoctization is indeed present, how else would one group choose to name their art a foreign title from Mindanao?
 
Quote
Can you explain for us the repeated appearance of "kali" in various FMA names from various dialects?


The term KALI does Not appear in any of the major languages in the Philippines, to include Mindanao, that was exactly my point all along.  If you go to the rural areas in Mindanao and say the word KALI today, they?ll think you?re ordering a soft drink to quench your thirst.

Quote
For those of you looking for "proof", my sense of it is that there is much in the history of the Philippines that cannot be "proved". We know of sophisiticated ancient Filipino alphabets, yet have virtually no record of them or what they were used to write. We know that the Spaniards sought to destroy much in this regard. We know who wrote most of the history we do have and gave them the name of their art.


yes much of the culture is lost, but this doesn?t mean it is as easy to make words up and dub them meaning and expect people to accept it without question.  The various languages in the islands are still very much alive.  This is why if there are any such evidence of the use of the term KALI, it would be obvious in the language.  All we need is to figure out which ethno-linguistic group uses KALI?if there is such a group.  But, as you can see, this is almost as hard as doing Sinawali with one hand.


(p.s.?there is a purpose for all this badgering and questions.  But, let us first exhaust the argument, and then I?ll outline my reasons I?m attacking the term Kali with such passion.  Of course it isn?t personal, but it?s point I?d like to make known to others in the FMA world.  So, if you can bare with me, I?d be much obliged)
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on November 06, 2003, 04:50:35 PM
All:

I will have more to say later but for now found this, from a well-travelled Filipino teacher, in my files.

FOR THOSE WHO SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THE POINT STATED PREVIOUSLY, I AM NOT TRYING PERSUADE ANYONE OF ANYTHING.  THIS IS NOT OFFERED AS PROOF, IT IS OFFERED AS A COURTESY TO THOSE LOOKING FOR PIECES TO THE PUZZLE.

Crafty Dog
====================


A. Kali is authenticated as follows:

Kali is found in the language of the filipino
alphabets. In the first four Alibata or Babayin the
original filipino language: A ba (ka )da. Open the
yahoo search for Alibata and you see the explanation.

Meaning the filipino language is full of meaning and
the two letters as spelled KA =a prefix for verbs in
filipino words: As Ka-lipay or happiness, Ka-lisod for
sadness, Ka-libutan for the world, Ka-limutan to
forget, ka-lirungan meaning, knowldege and etc.

KA-IS WORD FOR RESPECT for Sir, your highness,your
excellency,your honor.

All persons in the early days were addressed as
Ka-pedro or Ka Jose or Ka Juan. As Ka-Marc. Ka Dan or
Ka leo.The word KA is a word to address the head of
the Iglesia ni Kristo , a religious group in the
Philippines with more than 5 million members. The head
of the Church is KA FERDIE MANALO.

The rebel group in the Philippines( NPA) they address
their leaders as KA like Ka Roger. This word Ka must
be express with sincerity and greast respect.

Ka- is found in the flag of the first katipunan group
who revolted against Spain. The Ka-tipuneros or the
revolutionarios against the Spaniards in 1800 use the
sign K in their hats and all the flags displayed
during the assaults.

Kali was more of a Philosophy of the early filipinos.
This philosophy was a major drive in the filipinos
bravery  using the bolos charging  against the
Spaniards guns and spanish blades that demoralizes
every assualts surprised the Spanish officers and the
whole Spanish regime in the Philippines. Spain lost
the revolution selling the filipinos at $ 3.00 dollars
per head in the treaty of Paris in 1889.

Kali found its landmark in Panay Island where the
first constitution of the land was established by Datu
Kalantiaw: The Code of Kalantiaw and the Code of
Maragtas.The influence of kali as a Philosophy were
found among the natives of Panay and the arrival of
Ten Datus from Borneo established the gathering of the
early inhabitants at KALIBO now the captial of Aklan
province where the famous Boracay White Beach Resort
is found, an international well known beach resort
found in Panay.Another remarkable place as a landmark
of Kali is the town of KALINOG- where every year the
celebration of the festival called PINTADOS is held to
celebrate the famous battle in Kalinog-meaning
earthquake where the filipinos rebels painted their
faces as disguised to infiltrate the Spanish garrison.
In northern Luzon province of Kalinga Apayao , a place
where the Kalimen settled in the north and today the
natives practice Kali in form of PIKA_PIKA.

To check the working Philosophy of Kali, known as
distinct bravery, during the Marocs time, the Army
soldiers that fought in Mindanao against the Muslim
rebellion were all the Ilongos soldiers from Panay and
Negros, other tribes like the Ilocanos and Tagalogs
were moved out to Manila. The only group of tribes in
the Philippines that the Muslim in MIndanao resepcts
is the Ilongo. Even in the Marines now, only the
Ilongo marines can infiltrate Muslim rebels.

KALI as a art is accepted by the Armed forces of the
Philippines recognized by the President of the
Philippines, Former President Ramos, Secretary of
National Defense and the Present President ( open
pekiti-tirsia.net ) check the blackboard.

Every year the town of Salvador Benedicto in Negros
celebrates the kali-kalihan festival.

 Kali is blade oriented fighting discipline. No
disarming, no blocking, no kata no judo throws no
aikido or jujitsui nor kicks is applied during the
fight.
===========
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2003, 05:56:53 PM
Quote

Kali is authenticated as follows:


the following doesn't really "authenticate".

Quote
Kali is found in the language of the filipino
alphabets. In the first four Alibata or Babayin the
original filipino language: A ba (ka )da. Open the
yahoo search for Alibata and you see the explanation.


the syllable KA can also be found in Japanese, Arabic, English, Indonesian, etc. (it's pretty much found in most, if not all, languages)

Quote
Meaning the filipino language is full of meaning and
the two letters as spelled KA =a prefix for verbs in
filipino words: As Ka-lipay or happiness, Ka-lisod for
sadness, Ka-libutan for the world, Ka-limutan to
forget, ka-lirungan meaning, knowldege and etc.


it's not a prefix for VERBs, but rather for abstract concepts: KAmatuuran (truth), KAsaysayan (history), KAlayaan (freedom), KAlinaw (peace).

Quote
KA-IS WORD FOR RESPECT for Sir, your highness,your
excellency,your honor.
All persons in the early days were addressed as
Ka-pedro or Ka Jose or Ka Juan. As Ka-Marc. Ka Dan or
Ka leo.The word KA is a word to address the head of
the Iglesia ni Kristo , a religious group in the
Philippines with more than 5 million members. The head
of the Church is KA FERDIE MANALO.


this is accurate to some degree.

Quote
The rebel group in the Philippines( NPA) they address
their leaders as KA like Ka Roger. This word Ka must
be express with sincerity and greast respect.


the word KA' within the NPA stands for KAsama (comrade).  it's addressed to everyone who belongs to this movement.

Quote
Ka- is found in the flag of the first katipunan group
who revolted against Spain. The Ka-tipuneros or the
revolutionarios against the Spaniards in 1800 use the
sign K in their hats and all the flags displayed
during the assaults.


the KA stands for KAtipunan (group/society), also has the extra meaning of KAlayaan (freedom).  the original flag contains three KKKs, the KKK stands for: KAtaastaasan KAgalanggalangan Na KAtipunan ng Mga Anak Ng Bayan (the Highest and Most Respectable Society of the Sons of the People/Nation).

Quote
Kali was more of a Philosophy of the early filipinos.
This philosophy was a major drive in the filipinos
bravery  using the bolos charging  against the
Spaniards guns and spanish blades that demoralizes
every assualts surprised the Spanish officers and the
whole Spanish regime in the Philippines. Spain lost
the revolution selling the filipinos at $ 3.00 dollars
per head in the treaty of Paris in 1889.


out of nowhere, having listed various uses of the syllable KA, this is suppose to connect to KALI?  this is somewhat of an equivocation on the writers part, in which he inserts the term KALI surreptiously after having "authenticated" the KA syllable prior.  

KALI or any of this term's derivation was never used among KAtipuneros or at any time during the Spanish/Filipino or the American/Filipino War in the late 1890s and the early 1900s.

Quote
Kali found its landmark in Panay Island where the
first constitution of the land was established by Datu
Kalantiaw: The Code of Kalantiaw and the Code of
Maragtas.The influence of kali as a Philosophy were
found among the natives of Panay and the arrival of
Ten Datus from Borneo established the gathering of the
early inhabitants at KALIBO now the captial of Aklan
province where the famous Boracay White Beach Resort
is found, an international well known beach resort
found in Panay.


there is NO mention of Kali (as the ancient martial art) in the Code of Kalantiaw.  in the town KAlibo, KA is the prefix while the root is LIBO.  hardly a connection to KALI as the 'ancient' martial art.

Quote
Another remarkable place as a landmark
of Kali is the town of KALINOG- where every year the
celebration of the festival called PINTADOS is held to
celebrate the famous battle in Kalinog-meaning
earthquake where the filipinos rebels painted their
faces as disguised to infiltrate the Spanish garrison.
In northern Luzon province of Kalinga Apayao , a place
where the Kalimen settled in the north and today the
natives practice Kali in form of PIKA_PIKA.


again KA in KAlinog is the prefix, linog is the root. it seems the author is making a big deal about the happenstance of the syllable KA and LI being together in some words and town's name.  if we follow this logic, we'll have to also connect the Bisayan word KAlibanga', which means diarhea, to the term KALI.  which would be very silly.

Quote
To check the working Philosophy of Kali, known as
distinct bravery, during the Marocs time, the Army
soldiers that fought in Mindanao against the Muslim
rebellion were all the Ilongos soldiers from Panay and
Negros, other tribes like the Ilocanos and Tagalogs
were moved out to Manila. The only group of tribes in
the Philippines that the Muslim in Mindanao respects
is the Ilongo.
Even in the Marines now, only the
Ilongo marines can infiltrate Muslim rebels.


there's a big ILONGO rhetoric/proganda theme in this paragraph, so i have a pretty good idea who wrote this now.  but, in truth the Muslims, like any other group, respect those who respect them in return.  the Ilongos don't have a monopoly with the concept of respect in the Philippines. they're no braver than the next guy.  and more importantly the word KALI is Not indigenous to the ILONGOs of Bacolod or any other parts of the Philippines.

Quote
KALI as a art is accepted by the Armed forces of the
Philippines recognized by the President of the
Philippines, Former President Ramos, Secretary of
National Defense and the Present President ( open
pekiti-tirsia.net ) check the blackboard.


yes, KALI is now part of the martial arts terminology within the Philippine Military, but it has only been until recently when Pekiti Tersia began training them.  Mr. Gaje himself began using the term KALI while he was in the East Coast of the US in the 1970s, if memory serves me right.  again, no historical evidence for KALI.

Quote
Every year the town of Salvador Benedicto in Negros
celebrates the kali-kalihan festival.


i've never heard of this, i'm very interested as to how they began using the term.  and if the term has the same meaning as the martial arts KALI.  i'd also want to know when the festival started.  the big festival in Cebu City, to offer an added perspective, Sinulog began in the 1980s to attract tourists.

Quote
Kali is blade oriented fighting discipline. No
disarming, no blocking, no kata no judo throws no
aikido or jujitsui nor kicks is applied during the
fight.


ALL arts in the Philippines involve the use of a blade.  the rural areas tend to use the longer blades (i.e. kampilans, barongs, sundangs, pinutis, and other farming tools), because people tend to walk around with these implements.  in the urban setting however, since it's fairly uncommon to see a person walk around with a sword or any other long blade weapon, they've done away with the sword or long blade (as the rural folks have done away with the blow gun, bow/arrow, and shields).  but they surely still train with the knife, since there's more chances of you being poked with a knife or barbecue stick in the city.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: another guest on November 06, 2003, 06:26:26 PM
All:

Quote
I will have more to say later but for now found this, from a well-travelled Filipino teacher, in my files.

FOR THOSE WHO SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THE POINT STATED PREVIOUSLY, I AM NOT TRYING PERSUADE ANYONE OF ANYTHING. THIS IS NOT OFFERED AS PROOF, IT IS OFFERED AS A COURTESY TO THOSE LOOKING FOR PIECES TO THE PUZZLE.

Crafty Dog
====================


A. Kali is authenticated as follows:

Kali is found in the language of the filipino
alphabets. In the first four Alibata or Babayin the
original filipino language: A ba (ka )da. Open the
yahoo search for Alibata and you see the explanation.

Meaning the filipino language is full of meaning and
the two letters as spelled KA =a prefix for verbs in
filipino words: As Ka-lipay or happiness, Ka-lisod for
sadness, Ka-libutan for the world, Ka-limutan to
forget, ka-lirungan meaning, knowldege and etc.

KA-IS WORD FOR RESPECT for Sir, your highness,your
excellency,your honor.

All persons in the early days were addressed as
Ka-pedro or Ka Jose or Ka Juan. As Ka-Marc. Ka Dan or
Ka leo.The word KA is a word to address the head of
the Iglesia ni Kristo , a religious group in the
Philippines with more than 5 million members. The head
of the Church is KA FERDIE MANALO.

The rebel group in the Philippines( NPA) they address
their leaders as KA like Ka Roger. This word Ka must
be express with sincerity and greast respect.

Ka- is found in the flag of the first katipunan group
who revolted against Spain. The Ka-tipuneros or the
revolutionarios against the Spaniards in 1800 use the
sign K in their hats and all the flags displayed
during the assaults.

Kali was more of a Philosophy of the early filipinos.
This philosophy was a major drive in the filipinos
bravery using the bolos charging against the
Spaniards guns and spanish blades that demoralizes
every assualts surprised the Spanish officers and the
whole Spanish regime in the Philippines. Spain lost
the revolution selling the filipinos at $ 3.00 dollars
per head in the treaty of Paris in 1889.

Kali found its landmark in Panay Island where the
first constitution of the land was established by Datu
Kalantiaw: The Code of Kalantiaw and the Code of
Maragtas.The influence of kali as a Philosophy were
found among the natives of Panay and the arrival of
Ten Datus from Borneo established the gathering of the
early inhabitants at KALIBO now the captial of Aklan
province where the famous Boracay White Beach Resort
is found, an international well known beach resort
found in Panay.Another remarkable place as a landmark
of Kali is the town of KALINOG- where every year the
celebration of the festival called PINTADOS is held to
celebrate the famous battle in Kalinog-meaning
earthquake where the filipinos rebels painted their
faces as disguised to infiltrate the Spanish garrison.
In northern Luzon province of Kalinga Apayao , a place
where the Kalimen settled in the north and today the
natives practice Kali in form of PIKA_PIKA.

To check the working Philosophy of Kali, known as
distinct bravery, during the Marocs time, the Army
soldiers that fought in Mindanao against the Muslim
rebellion were all the Ilongos soldiers from Panay and
Negros, other tribes like the Ilocanos and Tagalogs
were moved out to Manila. The only group of tribes in
the Philippines that the Muslim in MIndanao resepcts
is the Ilongo. Even in the Marines now, only the
Ilongo marines can infiltrate Muslim rebels.

KALI as a art is accepted by the Armed forces of the
Philippines recognized by the President of the
Philippines, Former President Ramos, Secretary of
National Defense and the Present President ( open
pekiti-tirsia.net ) check the blackboard.

Every year the town of Salvador Benedicto in Negros
celebrates the kali-kalihan festival.

Kali is blade oriented fighting discipline. No
disarming, no blocking, no kata no judo throws no
aikido or jujitsui nor kicks is applied during the
fight.
===========


why make this sound mysterioius as "a well travelled master"? at first glance I could immediately check from the writing style and content that it is an article written by the "Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje".
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: another guest on November 06, 2003, 06:57:02 PM
It can be noted, and this has been documented, that the Marcos era was the time when alot of historical, cultural, anthropological aspects of the country were being manipulated by the late dictator Pres. Ferdinand Edralin Marcos for his personal gain. He directly did this by fabricating his heroic exploits during WW2 (people during that time would not forget the famous pictures of Marcos wearing all those fake medals) including his fake participation in the infamous Bataan Death March where plenty of American GI's and Filipino guerillas died.

Ferdinand Marcos tried to "exoticize" the country by referring to it in his mind as the "Maharlikas". It was during his time that such ideas such as the wave of migration from the Negritos or Atis/Ita, then the Malays, then the Indonesians were propagated and spread into the curriculum of all schools. This migration theory is now being disputed now by current, enlightened historians who have nothing else to gain but a sense of Filipino pride of passing on the real "roots" to the coming generations.
It was also during Marcos' time that the "Code of Kalantiaw", was being popularized, this code is being questioned as to its authenticity as well.

One major anthropological/historical fraud that Marcos and his crony, Elizalde, was the supposed discovery of the lost ancient tribe of the "Tasaday" in Palawan,which is the Philippine's last fronteir. This has been disputed and documented.  

One may argue that some of these theories were being propagated even before Marcos time. I agree. It was the work of some Americans like Fox who made some studies even before WW2. However, alot of these theories are being disputed by current Filipino historians, anthropologists.

How does this relate to "Kali". Well, most of these "grandmasters" base Kali historical facts from these theories that are now being questioned for their soundness.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 07, 2003, 09:22:58 AM
correction:

the Code of Kalantiaw does have archaelogical merits.  But, the point of argument regarding this artifact, is not whether it's hoax or not; Rather, if whether this artifact, or the contents found within, is worthy of all these 'positive nationalist propaganda'.

You see the Code is a set of historical as well as traditional laws/rules (somewhat like the Muslims' Shariya or the Code of Hammurabi).  But, the Code or the laws set within are so barbaric that historians, anthropologists, etc. are starting to question as to whether they should promote it as something the nation can be proud of or just leave it as a historical artifact, not worthy to be taught in elementary schools as "Our Ancient Laws".

The Code is not representative of the whole archipelago, as it was just found in one island.  The contents of which aren't replicated in other parts of the nation.

There is NO mention of KALI as the ancient art of the Philippines.
Title: Migration
Post by: Sun_Helmet on November 07, 2003, 09:59:47 AM
Quote from: another guest
It was during his time that such ideas such as the wave of migration from the Negritos or Atis/Ita, then the Malays, then the Indonesians were propagated and spread into the curriculum of all schools. This migration theory is now being disputed now by current, enlightened historians who have nothing else to gain but a sense of Filipino pride of passing on the real "roots" to the coming generations.


Are there any publications or sites that document these disputes about migration? What are the current stances on these topics?

I believe Hurley's 'Swish of the Kris' may have been one of the earliest publications to list the migration theory that is now in question. What are the real 'roots' these enlightened are now presenting?


--Rafael Kayanan--
Title: syllable
Post by: Bored on November 07, 2003, 12:48:15 PM
The theory being propogated recently is the land-bridge theory.  It basically goes that there was once a land bridge between PI and mainland asia, and thats how the people arrived in PI.  Essentially it disputes the wave theory, and states there was no wave migration Philippine Culture/history was a constant and developed by itself in PI, without outside influence.  However, Question Everything seems to have things backwards.  It is during Marcos time that the land-bridge theory gains popularity, in an effort to make PI history stand up more on its own rather than seem to be borrowing from Indonesia/Malaysia.  Sun Helmet is correct in noting that before the Marcos era, as early as the turn of the century, the common theory was the wave migration theory.  It is the basis of various ethnological works, such as the subsequent ethnological surveys of the Islands undertaken by such pioneers as Albert Jenks, and Najeeb Saleeby in the turn of the century.  

As for chopping up the spelling of words to look for greater meaning/connections, it must be remembered that most of the Romanization of non-christian Dialects was only undertaken in the last 100 years under the American auspices.  Often times the translations are arbitrary phonetic attributions, rather than anything based on native practice or meaning, and the usage changes over time.  

As for the code of Kalantiaw having archaelogical merits, what are they?  Noted scholar, William Henry Scott refuted the whole code, School of Bothoan, and 10 datu myth a long time ago as fabrications.  What is the scholarly work that disputes his ground breaking work?  Here are a couple links to sites that go into detail about the refutation of the whole 10 datu myth, school of bothoan, and code lies.  http://www.mts.net/~pmorrow/kalant_e.htm
http://aklanweb.tripod.com/historiography.htm

As for Antonio Illustrimos use of kalis illustrimo, the s is very very important.  Kalis was used in the same manner as kalis tulid, or kris tulid, depending on your spelling.  So in a sense it was used as the sword of Illustrimo, and not some kali reference.  Or at least that is what I have heard.
Title: qadi
Post by: Bored on November 07, 2003, 02:58:35 PM
In Muslims in the Philippines, Dr. Majul notes that the word Qadi, or judge in Tausug has sometimes been spelt kali.  However, I can see how its usage would have fallen out of modern usage, as the US destroyed the old system of Islamic law/government in which the title would be found.  Also, again the spelling is arbitrary as well, and may have no more significance than an American transcriber listening to someone with an overly thick accent.  Kinda like the story about the heaven block being invented when a student mis-understood Angel Cabales thick accent saying Seven block.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: another bored guest on November 07, 2003, 05:33:07 PM
http://www.mts.net/~pmorrow/kalant_e.htm


Go to this site and read it slowly. It mentions how the guy who submitted ancient documents was suspected of fabricating documents. They also dismissed that the legend of King Kalantiaw is a hoax.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: QUESTION EVERYTHING on November 07, 2003, 07:31:07 PM
We’re now going into pointless tangents about the Code of Kalantiaw.  The important fact we need, for our KALI discussion, is that the term KALI isn’t found in the Code.  I’m familiar with the other points of academic contention, but it won’t be relevant to the KALI discussion here.

As for the other tidbits of information presented, only the two below are related to the KALI discussion.  So, allow me to address both…

Quote
As for Antonio Illustrimos use of kalis illustrimo, the s is very very important. Kalis was used in the same manner as kalis tulid, or kris tulid, depending on your spelling. So in a sense it was used as the sword of Illustrimo, and not some kali reference. Or at least that is what I have heard.


You’re connecting the words kalis and kris as if these two words are one and the same.  KALIS (adjective) in Tagalog means to be cleanly scraped, or KALISAN (verb form) to scrape something off.  KRIS, on the otherhand, is the sword or dagger found in Mindanao.  KRIS and KALIS are not the same.  And one cannot, arbitrarily brush it off as some sort of spelling error.   I’m not familiar with KALIS in any other Philippine languages, especially in Mindanao, to mean sword.


Quote
In Muslims in the Philippines, Dr. Majul notes that the word Qadi, or judge in Tausug has sometimes been spelt kali. However, I can see how its usage would have fallen out of modern usage, as the US destroyed the old system of Islamic law/government in which the title would be found. Also, again the spelling is arbitrary as well, and may have no more significance than an American transcriber listening to someone with an overly thick accent. Kinda like the story about the heaven block being invented when a student mis-understood Angel Cabales thick accent saying Seven block.


The word Qadi is NOT Tausug, but rather Arabic.  And it was transcibed rather CORRECTLY, you can consult your nearest Mosque (masjid) on this.  And the US did not destroy the Shariya, or Islamic Laws, during their tenure in Mindanao.  As a matter of fact, the US military’s policy was to keep on letting the Muslims continue their culture, because certain empirialists wanted Mindanao to be as different from the rest of the Christianized nation, since their strategy was to eventually cut off Mindanao to make it a separate country (look into “Muslim Rulers and Rebels” by Thomas McKenna and “Making Mindanao” by Patricio Abinales).  Islamic Law in Mindanao has since been marginalized by the Christian Filipino Republic, but it is indeed still there.

Once again QADI is not KALI.

I think I see a pattern here now. People are speaking expertly about things they know so little about and making various uneducated assumptions.  Basically, they are throwing anything that sounds and rhymes closely with the word KALI, in the hopes that they’ll hit something.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: QUESTION EVERYTHING on November 07, 2003, 07:46:36 PM
Quote from: Bored
However, Question Everything seems to have things backwards.  It is during Marcos time that the land-bridge theory gains popularity, in an effort to make PI history stand up more on its own rather than seem to be borrowing from Indonesia/Malaysia.


by the way, I wasn't the one who posted the whole Marcos tidbit, as this information has absolutely no relevance to our KALI discussion.  I was the one, though, to break down Mr. Gaje's 'authentication' article.  if you're at a lost, just look at the writing style and streamlined logic employed.
 
Quote
As for chopping up the spelling of words to look for greater meaning/connections, it must be remembered that most of the Romanization of non-christian Dialects was only undertaken in the last 100 years under the American auspices.  Often times the translations are arbitrary phonetic attributions, rather than anything based on native practice or meaning, and the usage changes over time.


there was no "chopping up" of words.  i was simply pointing out that syllables were given unnecessarry meanings, when they were just simple syllables of a specific word, NOT related to the term/title KALI.

if you have no more "evidence" to contribute, i would like to wrap this up with a point.  but, i'll wait until the end of the weekend to give you folks some time to do some research and offer sufficient rebuttles.  have a good weekend!!!
Title: Majul
Post by: Bored on November 07, 2003, 09:00:02 PM
Question Everyting, are you saying Majul's work is incorrect?  Also, if you properly read Mckenna's work, you will know that the US did not seek to preserve traditional Moro culture, but instead imposed a false sense of heightened Islamization.  You should read Mandate in Moroland, by Peter Gowing, it goes into detail about the US policy in Moroland.  

As for kalis Illustrimo, you are assuming that the kalis being used is Tagalog.  But if you follow the Bakbakan people, theyre explanation for kalis is not as a Tagalog word, but as a Tausug word.  Remember, it is claimed that Antonio Illustrimo was raised for a while in Sulu, hence the adoption of the Tausug word kalis.  What I was trying to illustrate before, that while kalis and kris are spealt differently, in this sense they refer to the same thing, and will be pronounced the same.  How you got fixated on attributing everything back to Tagalog I am not sure.

Anyways, I have tried to use references for all the examples I have listed.  But if you feel they are incorrect, please let me know why, rather than flinging insults and perjoratives.
Title: Re: Migration
Post by: Question Everything on November 07, 2003, 09:02:23 PM
Off Topic
Quote from: Sun_Helmet

Are there any publications or sites that document these disputes about migration? What are the current stances on these topics?

I believe Hurley's 'Swish of the Kris' may have been one of the earliest publications to list the migration theory that is now in question. What are the real 'roots' these enlightened are now presenting?

--Rafael Kayanan--


Rafael,

If you're really interested with the other theories which only recently came to light, you should contact a certain Prof. Castro of the University of the Philippines Diliman, Anthropology Dept., next time you visit Manila.

the Wave and Land Bridge theories, were popular in the 60s and 70s, but they've devised others, more linguistically based theories since. I'm sorry, I can't offer you any publications.  Most of what I read about the new theories came as xerox copies of separate articles.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2003, 09:03:41 PM
Woof All:

I'm on the road and will be unable to comment for several days.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
Title: Re: Majul
Post by: Question Everything on November 07, 2003, 09:34:51 PM
Quote from: Bored
Question Everyting, are you saying Majul's work is incorrect?  Also, if you properly read Mckenna's work, you will know that the US did not seek to preserve traditional Moro culture, but instead imposed a false sense of heightened Islamization.  You should read Mandate in Moroland, by Peter Gowing, it goes into detail about the US policy in Moroland.


all you have to do is go to your nearest Mosque (Masjid) right now and ask if QADI is indeed Arabic for 'judge'.  as an addendum, MOHAKEM also means 'judge' in Arabic, from the root "HAKAMA" meaning to rule or preside over.  

As for US policy, the point i was trying to make was that they retained Muslim culture and traditions, whether it was with good or ill intent is irrelevant in this discussion.  the first point was that they did not bastardize the word QADI, as you've indicated.

KALI has never been used for QADI, as this word invokes a great deal of respect.

Quote
 
As for kalis Illustrimo, you are assuming that the kalis being used is Tagalog.  But if you follow the Bakbakan people, theyre explanation for kalis is not as a Tagalog word, but as a Tausug word.  Remember, it is claimed that Antonio Illustrimo was raised for a while in Sulu, hence the adoption of the Tausug word kalis.  What I was trying to illustrate before, that while kalis and kris are spealt differently, in this sense they refer to the same thing, and will be pronounced the same.  How you got fixated on attributing everything back to Tagalog I am not sure.


the connection to Tagalog was a mere offer of perspective, my point was that a word can be the same in two languages (if indeed KALIS came from another language) and yet be totally different in meaning.

now for the interesting part, you've now committed to one ethno-linguistic group.  and why you chose the Tausugs is beyond me, having already outlined that one of my teachers in Mindanao was part Tausug.
the word KALIS was never used.  and to stretch it and say, "well, it kinda sounds like KRIS" is totally absurd, because it DOESN'T.  are any of the BAKBAKAN members Tausug? because i seriously doubt any are, if they go around saying KALIS is actually KRIS pronounced differently.  and again the word KRIS carries alot of meaning for Muslim Filipinos, they will not go around mispronouncing it.

so, once again, KALIS is not KRIS.  and further, KALIS does not mean any sort of sword in Tausug (i invite you to speak to any Tausug, or Maranaw, or Magindanaw, or Yakan about this word, and they'll say the same).  so, you need to go back to drawing board on this one.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 07, 2003, 09:42:52 PM
P.S.

And please don't say, KALIS is pronounced KRIS.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Bored on November 07, 2003, 11:30:15 PM
Question Everything, I do not know why you are dodging the question.  Are you saying Majul's work is wrong?  In the glossary section of his seminal work, Muslims in the Philippines, it lists the word kali as being a Tausug corruption of the word Qadi.  Am I correct in understanding you, that he is wrong in this attribution?

As for the Kalis Illustrimo, they attribute their Tausug connections by Antonio Illustrimo's own words.  So are you saying you have proof that Antanio Illustrimo was incorrect in saying he was raised by Tausug's for a portion of his younger life?  What is your proof?  

You are also saying that kalis is not a sword in Tausug, so Cecil Quirino oowner/operator of Kris Cutlery and eminent weapons researcher is wrong in his catalogs calling different swords kalis?  Also the book Moro Swords by Robert Cato is again wrong in attributing the word kalis to the Tausug tribe?  You have said that your Tausug friends would argue against their usage, but I know both Cecil and Robert have travelled extensively in Moroland, and have a good many personal connections with Tausugs.  Why have they not been corrected?

Again I have listed names, book titles, etc...  as to where I am getting my information.  Beyond stating oh various un-named friends told me this, and speculation what is your proof?
Title: About the sword term, "kalis"...
Post by: Spadaccino on November 08, 2003, 04:46:29 AM
Folks,

I once read somewhere (I believe it was a Mark Wiley book or article) that the sword term kalis is derived from kilij, which is the Turkish word for a fairly short, heavy saber (as opposed to the longer, lighter shamshir of Persian origin).  I'm no linguist, but kalis and kilij seem to have a similar sound to them.  I'll see if I can dig up the reference.

Related to the above is the possibility of  direct or indirect contact between the Turks (and/or their allies) and the Muslim Filipinos.  We know that the Portuguese fought against the Turks and their allies in the Red Sea in the early 16th century; what about the Ottomans or people from their satellite territories assisting fellow Muslims?

Thoughts?

Peace,

David/TFS
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 08, 2003, 07:10:02 AM
Quote from: Bored
Question Everything, I do not know why you are dodging the question.  Are you saying Majul's work is wrong?  In the glossary section of his seminal work, Muslims in the Philippines, it lists the word kali as being a Tausug corruption of the word Qadi.  Am I correct in understanding you, that he is wrong in this attribution?


if Majul is saying Qadi is being bastardized by Tausugs, and saying KALI in it's place, then he is WRONG.  these words, along with ULAMA (someone who is learned in islam), HADJI (someone who has performed pilgrimage to mecca) and IMAM (more or less an Ulama or/and Hadji, or any pious and religious muslim in a given group), these words are Arabic and are held in great regard because of there religious connotations.  I have yet to meet a Tausug who bastardizes these words.  then yes, Majul is Wrong in this regard (just because someone writes a book doesn't mean he is without flaw or his work in without flaw).

Quote
As for the Kalis Illustrimo, they attribute their Tausug connections by Antonio Illustrimo's own words.  So are you saying you have proof that Antanio Illustrimo was incorrect in saying he was raised by Tausug's for a portion of his younger life?  What is your proof?


my proof is in the language.  if Tausugs do say KALIS for Kris then i would be WRONG, if i'm wrong then why am I inviting you to inquire any knowledgable Tausug to verify this information? you do not speak Tausug, if i recall, so you need to verify this information.  if there was an English/Tausug dictionary then our little problem would be solved.  

as for Mr. Illustrisimo, i am not saying he is wrong in his autobiography. but, if he is saying that the Tausugs say KALIS for KRIS, then he is wrong in this regard.

Quote
You are also saying that kalis is not a sword in Tausug, so Cecil Quirino oowner/operator of Kris Cutlery and eminent weapons researcher is wrong in his catalogs calling different swords kalis?  Also the book Moro Swords by Robert Cato is again wrong in attributing the word kalis to the Tausug tribe?  You have said that your Tausug friends would argue against their usage, but I know both Cecil and Robert have travelled extensively in Moroland, and have a good many personal connections with Tausugs.  Why have they not been corrected?


now, you're appealing to two authorities i do not recognize (for all i know, these could simply be your high school buddies).  so, at this point you have to share either a book, or any sort of publication that contains KALIS as a Tausug sword of some sort.  then we can continue the discussion in earnest.

but, if the word KALIS is your strongest evidence for the title KALI as the "ancient" pure Filipino martial art, then i suggest you come up with a contingency 'evidence'.  it feels as though, that i'm going around in big circles with you.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 08, 2003, 07:28:38 AM
P.S.

i was just speaking to a friend after posting the above.  i thought her point was good and might be able to offer light to our little discussion here.

the Tausugs do not say KRIS the same way an American would say the name "Chris", but rather they say it with a little short 'e' in between the K and R.  so, they say it KeRIS.  

if someone was at the predisposition of mistaking the letter R with the letter L, as the Japanese are fond of doing, then he or she might say KeLIS.  a Tagalog or a Bisaya might later spell this Kelis into KALIS.  this would then take us to our current disagreement.
Title: Keris
Post by: Sun_Helmet on November 08, 2003, 12:46:51 PM
Quote from: Question Everything
P.S.

i was just speaking to a friend after posting the above.  i thought her point was good and might be able to offer light to our little discussion here.

the Tausugs do not say KRIS the same way an American would say the name "Chris", but rather they say it with a little short 'e' in between the K and R.  so, they say it KeRIS.  

if someone was at the predisposition of mistaking the letter R with the letter L, as the Japanese are fond of doing, then he or she might say KeLIS.  a Tagalog or a Bisaya might later spell this Kelis into KALIS.  this would then take us to our current disagreement.


I was going to post on this matter but it seems you've surmised the same. The Indonesians say "Keris" as well. So someone with a heavy Filipino accent could be misunderstood. There's stories of elder FMAs using words that have been misunderstood by their students or outsiders. I remember Tatang Bo Sayoc would say "manny-ober" and he was actually saying "maneuver".

Thanks for the info on Mr. Castro. I'm always interested in any new information about the past. It may not discount the previous theories but always a good opportunity to investigate.

--Rafael--
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Bored on November 08, 2003, 01:50:53 PM
Question Everything.

If you look in Wiley's book you will find that he referenced Robert Cato's work to make his.  Robert also was connected to various Moro scholars at MSU, such as Professor Madale, who is listed in his book.  Others who worked with him was Fr. Gabriel Casal, who at the time was director of the National Museum.  Robert Cato's book Moro Swords is the only book to this day that deals intensively with Moro Swords, and is a prised resource among most museum curators who deal with artifacts from Moroland.  

Dr. Cesar Adib Majul, a prominent Muslim leader, founded the Institute of Islamic Studies and became its first dean from 1974 up to 1980.  He had been a member of the UP faculty since 1948. From 1961 until 1966, he was dean of the University College, UP, and from 1969 until 1971, he was dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. He served on the Board of Regents of the University of Mindanao between 1961 and 1962. During the spring term of the academic year 1966-67, he was visiting professor at Cornell University.  Prof. Majul received the Republic Heritage Award for "the most outstanding contribution to Historical Writing during the period from May 1, 1960 to April 30, 1961," as well as the First Prize in the Biography Contest on the Life of Apolinario Mabini in 1964. From the University of the Philippines, he received the Distinguished Scholar Award in 1968.  He is hailed by various Moro groups as the pre-eminent voice in Moro studies.  If you read any book written about Moros, that has been written after his work, you will find in the bibliography his book.

Kalis is spelling, talking about arbitrary spelling patterns, why you are fixated on kalis as spoken with an American accent I am not sure.  Look at the various spelling of Iranun, it is also found Illanaon, llanaon, etc...  The more you write, the more I doubt that you speak any filipino dialect at all.  Also, if you did, you would know that the various dialects can have extreme differences, and being able to speak one or two doesnt make you expert on all.  Maguindanao, Tausgug, and Maranao are vastly different dialects, and to draw conclusions about all of them, with only having true experience with one or two, is hardly scholarly.

For someone who claims to have been raised in Mindanao surrounded by Moros, and to have gone to UP, you are very ignorant of seminal works, basic spellings, etc...  As well as various professors in the field in UP and MSU.  Also, I find it amazing that some white guy can claim to be able to slip between various christian and moro groups so easily, and yet be so ignorant of tensions between these groups.

I am also concerned about various facts you have raised in previous posts.  Why you claim the Pulajan movement, also known as the Dios-dios cult, spread beyond Leyte and Samar, is beyond me.  Especially when you go as far as saying the spread to Negros and Panay.  A good source for this little studied movement is Muddy Glory by Russel Roth.  They were a uniquely Waray movement.

Also, I do not know why you attribute Antonio's Illustrimo's story as leading him to Mindanao, when clearly in Wiley's book Philippine Martial Culture, it attributes his stay to Sulu, going as far as to name the Sultan who was his patron.

Also, I do not know why you claim Mckenna's work is proof that the US left Moro culture intact?  If you properly read Mckenna's work, it is a case study dealing with non-hegemonic groups in resistance movies, highlighted through his field work in the Cotabato slum Campo Muslim.  The whole basis of his claims is based on the fact that the US did significantly alter Moro culture, hence his focus on leaders that abandoned traditional culture in favor of cooperation with the US, such as Datu Piang.  

As for asking Tausug friends, I know many, including Royals, who have known these various authors, and have approved their work.

What is your story, for one who claims to be so knowledgeable, and yet to have gotten so much wrong?
Title: Mckenna
Post by: Bored on November 08, 2003, 01:54:36 PM
Movies in the previous post is a mistake, and should have been movements.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 08, 2003, 04:50:17 PM
Quote from: Bored
Question Everything.
If you look in Wiley's book you will find that he referenced Robert Cato's work to make his.  Robert also was connected to various Moro scholars at MSU, such as Professor Madale, who is listed in his book.  Others who worked with him was Fr. Gabriel Casal, who at the time was director of the National Museum.  Robert Cato's book Moro Swords is the only book to this day that deals intensively with Moro Swords, and is a prised resource among most museum curators who deal with artifacts from Moroland.


when you spell KALIS K-A-L-I-S, people will pronounce it KALI with an S.  i will go with Sun Helmet on this, that KALIS is just a bastardization of the word KRIS.  basically, the correct word as Tausugs speak is KeRIS.  so, we got that out of the way.  KALIS then is a very WRONG spelling of KRIS.  which means there is no connection to KALI was you practice and pronounce it.

Quote
Dr. Cesar Adib Majul, a prominent Muslim leader, founded the Institute of Islamic Studies and became its first dean from 1974 up to 1980.  He had been a member of the UP faculty since 1948. From 1961 until 1966, he was dean of the University College, UP, and from 1969 until 1971, he was dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. He served on the Board of Regents of the University of Mindanao between 1961 and 1962. During the spring term of the academic year 1966-67, he was visiting professor at Cornell University.  Prof. Majul received the Republic Heritage Award for "the most outstanding contribution to Historical Writing during the period from May 1, 1960 to April 30, 1961," as well as the First Prize in the Biography Contest on the Life of Apolinario Mabini in 1964. From the University of the Philippines, he received the Distinguished Scholar Award in 1968.  He is hailed by various Moro groups as the pre-eminent voice in Moro studies.  If you read any book written about Moros, that has been written after his work, you will find in the bibliography his book.


i am familiar with his work, but if he insists that Tausugs say KALI for QADI, as you've outlined, then he is very wrong.  this is why... the word QADI is arabic.  it is not transfered thru oral tradition, so you cannot say muslims are simply mispronouncing Arabic terms.  rather, the word is found in text form in the Qur'an, the Hadith, and other Islamic texts.  muslims are reading the word QADI as it appears on paper and reading it, as many Islamic scholars are very well versed in ARABIC.

when you go to the madrasah to learn how to read the Qur'an, if you consistently mispronounce the word QADI to KALI, i guarantee you, you will receive a thundering slap to the back of your head, to gently remind you that this is not how you pronounce the word.  much care is used when reading the Qur'an or the Hadith, because these are sacred text, the words of God and the interpretations and advice of the Prophet.

you, a non-muslim, a non-muslim filipino, someone who has never been to southern Mindanao, are assuming that Muslim Filipinos do not know their own religion. that they go around mispronouncing liturgical arabic words, for your sake.  Muslim Filipinos might not all be able to speak Fus'ha, the modern standard arabic used in news broadcasts, academia, and politics in today's middle east.  they might not be able to speak Lahjat 'Amia, the various dialects of arabic found in egypt, syria, iraq, the gulf, and morocco.  but, Muslim Filipino islamic leaders are knowledgable of the liturgical classical Arabic found in the Qur'an.

for you to assume that KALI can be interchanged with the word QADI, just so you have some sense of connection to the Philippines, justifying your own personal use of the word KALI, is just wrong.  you're basically stating that Muslim Filipinos go around mispronouncing words found in the Qur'an.  once again, KALI isn't another way of saying QADI.

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I am also concerned about various facts you have raised in previous posts.  Why you claim the Pulajan movement, also known as the Dios-dios cult, spread beyond Leyte and Samar, is beyond me.  Especially when you go as far as saying the spread to Negros and Panay.  A good source for this little studied movement is Muddy Glory by Russel Roth.  They were a uniquely Waray movement.


i've already offered two resources on this, namely Mr. Ileto's and Mr. Mojares' book. go read, and stop embarrassing yourself. this whole ad hominem attacks are very amateurish.

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Also, I do not know why you attribute Antonio's Illustrimo's story as leading him to Mindanao, when clearly in Wiley's book Philippine Martial Culture, it attributes his stay to Sulu, going as far as to name the Sultan who was his patron.


last time i checked, Sulu was in the region of Mindanao (as in... LUZON, VISAYAS and MINDANAO?)

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Also, I do not know why you claim Mckenna's work is proof that the US left Moro culture intact?  If you properly read Mckenna's work, it is a case study dealing with non-hegemonic groups in resistance movies, highlighted through his field work in the Cotabato slum Campo Muslim.  The whole basis of his claims is based on the fact that the US did significantly alter Moro culture, hence his focus on leaders that abandoned traditional culture in favor of cooperation with the US, such as Datu Piang.


McKenna's work is not "Proof", it's just a mere resource.  it is by all means not Definitive and Complete, as i'm sure the author knows. i interpreted it based on my own readings and experiences.  two people can read one book and come out with completely different interpretations.  such is the beauty of books.  we can get bogged down with US Policy in Mindanao during the 1900s to the 1930s, but one must be reminded that there was no ONE "US Policy" in affect, but rather a combination of policies (i.e. the de jure policy from Washington, the de facto Military policy, corporate policy, etc...).  this argument can go on til the end of time.  so, let's return to our discussion about KALI...

basically, we've "solved" the whole KALIS dilemma.  it turns out it was only a stupid spelling error, someone prounced KRIS, KLIS, which became KALIS for some strange reason.

as for QADI being KALI, i've already broken it down for you.  but, don't take my word for it, you can ask any Muslim Filipinos, or any other Muslims for that matter, about the seriousness of mispronouncing words in the Qur'an.

got any more???
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: QUESTION EVERYTHING on November 08, 2003, 05:10:09 PM
OFF TOPIC:

Quote
For someone who claims to have been raised in Mindanao surrounded by Moros, and to have gone to UP, you are very ignorant of seminal works, basic spellings, etc...


which seminal works am I ignorant about?
is KRIS spelled KALIS, really so basic?

Quote
As well as various professors in the field in UP and MSU.


Majul is 'various professors'? go read my post about Islamic words over again.


Quote
Also, I find it amazing that some white guy can claim to be able to slip between various christian and moro groups so easily, and yet be so ignorant of tensions between these groups.


did i say i was ignorant of these tensions?  

as a matter of fact you surmising Muslim Filipinos go around misprouncing Arabic words found in the Holy Qur'an adds to this Muslim/Christian tension, because you do not even try to know.  this is the main reason of these tensions.

as for being white in Mindanao, go reread my post to Crafty Dog.  Only a Fil-Am can go into this subject with such ignorance.

------------------------
i've just cut you up, left and right, as if i was training with a child.  is that all you have?

pity...
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Bored on November 08, 2003, 10:48:44 PM
Question Everything you are one hostile person.  Ironically I am not defending the use of kali, but was only stating that the word was found in Majul's glossary, since you had so vehemently denied its presence anywhere in the Philippines.  But apparently Professor Majul is wrong to state that it is found spelt in some sources that he referred to, according to you.  The various royal members of the Maranao, Maguindanao, and Sulu sultanates that opened themselves up to him, must have been ignoring his various mistakes, since a white mormon like you could so easily pronounce Majul's work as wrong.  Considering, that Majul pored over various period texts, including Saleeby's groundbreaking inroads into the Royal Tarsilas of the Sulu sultanate, as well as various translated works, from the Dutch and Spain, it is not suprising spellings vary.  But your lack of recognition of this phenomena, as well as your apparent lack of recognition that such occurences are common on work dealing with Moro studies, have caused me to question your own expertise in the matter.  I have provided names of scholars, and sources.  Do you want me to provided page numbers and quotes?  Saying, that this is how things are now, doesnt reflect how they were 100 years ago, something which if you actually read Mckenna's work, you would understand.

As for stating the Sulu archipelago is part of Mindanao, for someone so familiar with Moro groups, I am shocked to see this claim.  All the Tausug's I have met have been proud of their historic/cultural difference from their Mindanao brothers in faith.  The whole difference between the two is highlighted in the tensions between the Tausug dominated MNLF and the Maguindanao dominated MILF (again something you should know if you read Mckennas work).  Your misunderstanding of this, again leads me to question your understanding of the world you claim to have grown up in.

Also, your lack of citation which verges close to a phobia, unless your education was substandard, is appaling for someone who claims to come from an academic background.  You overly rely on hear-say and conjecture.

Anyways, as for the kali debate, I agree that realistically anyone drawing a claim between kali and the spelling of kalis, is basing this connection on mere arbitrary spelling connection, versus any real substantiated linguistic connection.  Also, Qadi as judge, even though found in the glossary in derivative as Kali, would have no connection to martial arts in whatever vaguest sense.  But as to why you decide to attack everyone who posts anything on this post, and yet refuse to back up your claims beyond saying this is what  repeating claims of hear-say and long-winded conjecture is beyond me.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 09, 2003, 02:14:39 AM
Quote from: Bored

Anyways, as for the kali debate, I agree that realistically anyone drawing a claim between kali and the spelling of kalis, is basing this connection on mere arbitrary spelling connection, versus any real substantiated linguistic connection.  Also, Qadi as judge, even though found in the glossary in derivative as Kali, would have no connection to martial arts in whatever vaguest sense.


this was basically the admittance i was looking for from you.  having said that our little tangent into the whole QADI/KALI connection and the KRIS/KALIS relationship has officially ended.  now, the question is whether you have anymore historical evidence to offer for the historicity of KALI?

as for mr. majul's glossary containing the word KALI. i've already outlined my reasons for its improbability, giving you the islamic context.  in the end, our point of departure in this subject is that one is basing his knowledge on experience, while the other is basing her knowledge on one man's book, having no experience nor cultural understanding to balance out the information provided in the book.  i could as easily ask how some Fil-Am, who knows nothing about Islam, has never been to Southern Mindanao, speaks no muslim dialect, yet has read a few books about Mindanao, speak so authoratively about Mindanao.  i would much rather get on with the KALI discussion.

as for the whole Sulu/Mindanao issue, i can as easily attack your constant use of the word "Moro" and "Moroland" (as i'm sure you know this is a term hated by Muslim Filipinos).  but, this would be a great waste of time on my part.  further, if i am not mistaken when i mentioned Mindanao regarding Mr. Illustrisimo's biography, it was because i did not know the specifics of this Mindanao story.  It was you who later added that he did go to Sulu.  Sulu, as far as i can recall, officially, is still part of Mindanao.  i don't recall it ever being Luzon, Visayas, Mindanao, and Sulu (they'd have to add an extra star on the flag).  we can argue more about this but it would be an exercise of idiocy.

there was a lack of citation, because there was nothing to cite.  all the above i've stated can be verified in your local Mosque, and through your Tausug friends, if you choose to do so.  unless you can read Arabic, or have an English/Tausug dictionary, citations were basically useless in this particular discussion.  (although book titles were offered for the other informations i've posted prior)

with that said, having closed that portion of the discussion, do you have any other theories as to how KALI sprang from the bossom of ancient past, into today's world as the 'pure', 'ancient', filipino martial art? if not, i would like to go on with my point.

so far, we've had Kamut Lihok, the Hindu Goddess Kali, Kali is found in Mindanao (somewhere), the Code of Kalantiaw, Kali is from Qadi, Kalis is pronounced Kris, and oh yeah, the syllable KA is important.  and the list goes on... yet, still no rational reason for the word.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: another bored guest on November 09, 2003, 11:09:17 AM
Quote
As for stating the Sulu archipelago is part of Mindanao, for someone so familiar with Moro groups, I am shocked to see this claim. All the Tausug's I have met have been proud of their historic/cultural difference from their Mindanao brothers in faith.


Well, in this case then we (from regional groups) would not want our distinct art named Arnis and/or Eskrima be associated with the wherever whatever regional group this Kali art or name or whatever that Fil-Ams are propagating came from. We have a clear and distinct culture and we are proud of it.

From a nationwide perspective, we do not want any MAPHILINDO terms or Madjapahit martial arts either. It is just tantmount to classifying Karate,Aikido, Taekwondo, Hwarangdo, Choylifut, Hunggar, Shaolin, Kempo, Wutang, etc as JA-KO-NA Kung-Fu(Japanese, korean, China).
It is just not correct. We Filipinos(born and raised - and Im not talking about those who have migrated when they were naive teenagers) are proud of our own distinct culture from the rest of SE Asia. Some people blame the Spaniards conquistadors for burning evidences of our roots, well I guess some Fil-Ams and Americans have been guilty of something similar by re-writing history without any proper research and is denying our future generations of a proud distinct culture.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 09, 2003, 12:08:34 PM
people are free to name their art anything.  Balintawak is a street name, Lameco came from Largo, Medio, Corto, Doce Pares came from a popular traveling play, eskrima came from the Spaniards, and the list goes on.

all have a source and meaning.  the difference with KALI is that it is arrogantly promoted as the historic title of the ancient art of the Philippines, yet this title-as we've all seen--has no source.

MAPHILINDO, JAKONA, are just mere fussion of words, it's nothing to get flustered about.

but, KALI is something we need to discuss. sadly, no one has stepped up with any reasonable explanation or justification for the use of this term.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Bored on November 09, 2003, 01:11:40 PM
Question Everything

I see now a pattern here.  You are working off of assumptions.  You assumed Illustrimo's connections were to Mindanao, without actually knowing his story.  You assumed I knew no-one from Moroland (and yes I will use this word, in the same way that I would use bangsamoro), but again you do not know who I am (though I now have a very good idea of who you are).  You also assume, I am just some fil-am who read a couple books, when nowhere in this thread have I listed my ethnicity or background.  All this in your strange attempt to disqualify anything that did not back up your claims 100 percent.

But, even in our strong disagreement on other matters, you are right, we do fundamentally agree, that the modern usage of kali is a modern phenomena with roots more likely in the US, rather than PI.  My own feeling on the matter, is like any other historic claim.  It is not the burden of the doubters to prove its validity, but those bringing up the claims.  In much of the same vein in which the code of kalantiaw was disproven by Scott, without historic basis kali claims lack reality.    

However, you vehement attacks on me, Majul's work, and plain mis-understanding of key texts, weakens you arguments against it.  It is quite easy to dismiss its appearence in Majul's work, as some writer's mis-interpretation, but to dismiss Majul as a whole, based on solely heresay, is hardly academic.  I am not interested in taking your arguments apart, but in strengthening them, beyond mere hearsay and assumption.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 09, 2003, 05:10:32 PM
Quote from: Bored

I see now a pattern here.  You are working off of assumptions.  You assumed Illustrimo's connections were to Mindanao, without actually knowing his story.  You assumed I knew no-one from Moroland, but again you do not know who I am (though I now have a very good idea of who you are).  You also assume, I am just some fil-am who read a couple books, when nowhere in this thread have I listed my ethnicity or background.  All this in your strange attempt to disqualify anything that did not back up your claims 100 percent.


Mr. Illustrisimo's connection to Mindanao was something i learned in this thread.  You provided the Sulu connection.  I see no assumptions there.  As for your ethnicity, your little knowledge of mindanao, etc. yes they are assumptions, educated guess if you will.  it's been said that if you do not fill the gap, someone else will fill it for you.  if you choose to be "anonymous", that's up to you. but more importantly, my assumptions of you are irrelevant to the KALI discussion.

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My own feeling on the matter, is like any other historic claim.  It is not the burden of the doubters to prove its validity, but those bringing up the claims.  without historic basis kali claims lack reality.
   

i guess this is where we disagree.  if a person insists that KALI is the 'pure', 'ancient' title of the martial arts in the Philippines and do so arrogantly (which is done always in comparison to the spanish named eskrima), then he or she will be challenged.  people will ask for evidence.  and as we've seen, this evidence is rather slippery. without evidence, the people who use KALI will have to drop this 'pure', 'ancient' propaganda and admit the most realistic scenario, and admit that KALI began in the US.

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However, your vehement attacks on me, Majul's work, and plain mis-understanding of key texts, weakens you arguments against it.  It is quite easy to dismiss its appearence in Majul's work, as some writer's mis-interpretation, but to dismiss Majul as a whole, based on solely heresay, is hardly academic.  I am not interested in taking your arguments apart, but in strengthening them, beyond mere hearsay and assumption.


the attacks on you, were of course, not personal, but a tool in polemics used to engage and enrage one's counterpart.  it made you do research.  it made the debate interesting, which otherwise would've been boring.

as for majul's work, if you reread my post i never attacked the rest of his work nor did i dismiss it as a whole, but rather i just addressed the QADI/KALI misprint.  which you dogmatically held on to without the ability to further analyze it, having no background in Arabic and having not lived in a Muslim neighborhood.  this placed you at a disadvantage.

as for "misunderstanding" McKenna's work once again.  i've already stated the complicated issues that aris when speaking of US Policy in Mindanao at the turn of the century.  these arguments too are found in the halls of academia.  we can argue more about this, but we'll basically get nowhere.  the fact of the matter is that muslims in mindanao stayed muslim and continued their culture, while the rest of the Philippines rode on the western bandwagon.  (sadly, when the westernized Filipinos descended upon mindanao, this very identity and their ignorance of the western system resulted in their marginalization) no one misunderstood anything, just different interpretations: you having never lived there, confined to books and i, who spent my childhood there, having been educated there... we will obviously come out from reading the same book with different interpretations.

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But, even in our strong disagreement on other matters, you are right, we do fundamentally agree, that the modern usage of kali is a modern phenomena with roots more likely in the US, rather than PI.


it's good to know we are now on the same page on this one.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Question Everything on November 09, 2003, 06:37:43 PM
Quote
My own feeling on the matter, is like any other historic claim.  It is not the burden of the doubters to prove its validity, but those bringing up the claims.  without historic basis kali claims lack reality.
 

sorry, we're also on the same page on this one.  :lol:
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: And another bored guest on November 09, 2003, 11:31:02 PM
Quote from: Question Everything
Quote from: Bored


the attacks on you, were of course, not personal, but a tool in polemics used to engage and enrage one's counterpart.  it made you do research.  it made the debate interesting, which otherwise would've been boring.



Isn't this just another way of saying you are "trolling"?  Despite being the persistant sesquipedalians and the academic masturbation, why doesn't somebody get to the point and decide conclusively where this all stands?  In other words, get to the freakin' point or take it to private e-mail!
Title: Kali
Post by: Sun_Helmet on November 10, 2003, 06:22:41 AM
[/quote]why doesn't somebody get to the point and decide conclusively where this all stands?[/quote]

:D

Btw, the usage of 'KA'  may be linked to the usage of the Sanskrit, 'KHA'. For example 'khaDga' or 'kha Dgii' meaning ' with sword'.

'Khali' outside of the Goddess of Destruction is also the term used for the waving of the hand in traditional music depicting a void or emptiness. So it is a 'Hand Motion' but pertains to music, not anything martial.

I checked around and 'Khalis' in Persian means 'pure and pious' so that doesn't link up with the Filipino sources.

--Rafael--
Title: Re: Kali
Post by: burnsson on November 10, 2003, 06:41:19 AM
Quote from: Sun_Helmet

'Khali' outside of the Goddess of Destruction is also the term used for the waving of the hand in traditional music depicting a void or emptiness. So it is a 'Hand Motion' but pertains to music, not anything martial.



anyway, it sounds good!

;)  :mrgreen:


btw, while practicing fma footwork i mostly feel like i'd dance.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on November 10, 2003, 09:46:32 AM
Quote

Isn't this just another way of saying you are "trolling"?  Despite being the persistant sesquipedalians and the academic masturbation, why doesn't somebody get to the point and decide conclusively where this all stands?  In other words, get to the freakin' point or take it to private e-mail!


if you can't hang with the big dogs, meaning you are unable to contribute anything significant (except for saying 'troll' repeatedly, like a retarded child), then just sit back and read thru the good info, or go play basketball, or go train.


--------------------------
as for Sun Helmet's discovery of Khali, this is very good info, which also takes us away from Mindanao and back to the Bisayan Kamut Lihok.  if you can provide more info on this, we'd really appreciate this.  movement, whether martial or dance is still very much related. keep at it, guys, we'll figure this out one way or another.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: And another bored guest on November 10, 2003, 10:20:19 PM
if you can't hang with the big dogs, meaning you are unable to contribute

-Wow.  What big dogs?  I didn't know there was any.  Are you one?  Must be something to be in such an exclusive club of one's own grandiosity.

 anything significant (except for saying 'troll' repeatedly, like a retarded child), then just sit back and read thru the good info, or go play

-It sounds like you like picking on such children.  There were people with that kind attitude that, also, wanted such children euthanized in gas chambers or locked up in institutions.  Nice going there with the name calling and all.  You've shown your true colors.

-Just calling it like I see it.  You already admitted your trolling behavior.  I just wanted to confirm it's accuracy.  Thanks.  Inciting people emotionally in a debate is bush league.  Try using FACTS.

 basketball, or go train.

-I sense some passive aggresiveness there.  You really should do something about that.  Interesting you are dispensing advice that you should follow yourself instead of doling it out to those who are not asking for it.  What god made you an authority?

 we'll figure this out one way or another

-Stop getting everybody else to do the work to validate your insecurities of your knowledge.  If you are so learned like you claim, put out the sweat yourself to prove your own postulations and opinions.  Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong.  Do the research and present FACTS.  Crafty Dog already indicates that this debate will never cease because historical evidence is not conclusive.  Why can't you let it go?  Amazing.  Some people just don't get it.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: bored Filipino guest on November 10, 2003, 11:09:56 PM
Quote
Crafty Dog already indicates that this debate will never cease because historical evidence is not conclusive.


Hindi ako yung pinagsabihan mo.

I was not the one that you were responding to

Ngunit, nais ko lang ipahawitig

But, I just want to or lest be known

Na mayroong bagong lahi ng Pilipino

That there is a new breed/new generation of Filipinos

na sawang sawa na

that are fed up

sa panggugulo ng mga kano at balikbayan

with the distortions that the Americans and Fil-Ams

sa totoong kasaysayan ng aming inang bayan

to the real history of our motherland

kaya't hindi hihinto ang aming pakikipagtalo

so we will not stop debating

hangga't ang katotohanan ay umiral

until truth prevails

Mabuhay ang inang bayan! Mabuhay ang tunay na kasaysayan!

to the motherland! to the true history!
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: And another bored guest on November 10, 2003, 11:56:18 PM
Quote from: bored Filipino guest
Quote
Crafty Dog already indicates that this debate will never cease because historical evidence is not conclusive.


Hindi ako yung pinagsabihan mo.

I was not the one that you were responding to

-gone errata-

kaya't hindi hihinto ang aming pakikipagtalo

so we will not stop debating

hangga't ang katotohanan ay umiral

until truth prevails

Mabuhay ang inang bayan! Mabuhay ang tunay na kasaysayan!

to the motherland! to the true history!


I can respect this that somebody that wants back their heritage.  Unfortunately, from what little I know of it, the Filipino culture is so mired and muddled from the invaders to their motherland, it's true heritage would be difficult to fathom.  This applies to the both the benevolent versus the oppressive invaders.  Except for a few zealots, it would be even difficult to tell what a true Filipino is.  I doubt any natives there have not been "integrated" or "conquered" by another imported culture.  Despite this, it is admirable that they want to get to the roots of their inheritance.  It's a hard road considering how much they lost.  I wish them luck.

May I recommend that rather than debate, it is best to be more constructive in reviving or re-discovering what was lost.  Not all things evolved or new is bad and not all old things are good.  Sometimes it is best to leave some skeletons in the closet or let dead dogs lie.  Reinvention, no revisionism, is still a valid way to link the new with the old.  Nothing is ever really quite original although plaigirism is the best form of flattery for what was once admired.  It's better to roll with it rather than fight.  Keep on truckin'  Cheers.
Title: hmmm...
Post by: style on November 11, 2003, 06:08:01 AM
i just need to bring something to everyone's attention (i like mayhem) the first real evidence of the use of "kali" can be traced to one source so to speak... g. placido yambao and his book - mga karunungan sa larong arnis- which by the way deals with "sword and dagger" fighting... which he called tabak at balaraw not espada y daga... and oddly enough has no real mention of "stick" fighting( that's for anyone out there who just assumes that "kali" is only about blades )... and it's not only him.. but he has the support from everyone else who helped w/ the book such as buenaventura mirafuente... at the time these guys were respected fighters and teachers ... so if you want to mess with the kali issue.. i suggest you check all your sources... oh. and on a side note... i grew up w/ tausug in bus-bus, never once did i hear of "kali" yet i did hear kuntao, silat, arnis and guess what-eskrima, oddly enough.. no "kali"... in essence... "kali" did not... i repeat- did not come from bangsamoro( moroland, the south)... but it did start in the philippines, where is anyone's guess.. but it did... i i don't like acknowledging it, but i have yambao's book in my hands... as much i may disagree with some of the contents... i still respect an old man's word...
Title: Re: hmmm...
Post by: Question Everything on November 11, 2003, 07:34:30 AM
Quote from: style
i just need to bring something to everyone's attention (i like mayhem) the first real evidence of the use of "kali" can be traced to one source so to speak... g. placido yambao and his book - mga karunungan sa larong arnis- which by the way deals with "sword and dagger" fighting...


Yambao, Placido. Mga Karununngan sa Larong Arnis. Quezon City: UP Press, 1957.

the KALI in Mr. Yambao's book simply means Kalirongan, the martial arts title in Pampanga, Philippines, where Mr. Yambao was from.

KA (once again) is its prefix denoting an abstract concept, while its suffix is -an.  the root is lirong, which is related to the Tagalog word Laro, which means to play.  to make the Tagalog word abstract, one simply adds the Ka- and the -an... KAlaro'AN.

the act of playing, when referring to training, is consistent also to the Bisaya dula' or in Cebuano, duwa'.

this is hardly the KALI which would later develope in the US as the "ANCIENT, PURE, LOST, BLADED art of the Philippines".
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on November 11, 2003, 09:02:53 AM
Quote
"Unfortunately, from what little I know of it, the Filipino culture is so mired and muddled from the invaders to their motherland, it's true heritage would be difficult to fathom. This applies to the both the benevolent versus the oppressive invaders. Except for a few zealots, it would be even difficult to tell what a true Filipino is. I doubt any natives there have not been "integrated" or "conquered" by another imported culture."


you'll say all that about Filipinos, with what little you know, even so far as saying that there is no "true Filipino" anymore, with no need for research (because according to you, all is lost) just so you can rightly say, "I train KALI, the ancient, pure, lost, bladed art of the Philippines"?

how ironic...
Title: Re: hmmm...
Post by: Sun_Helmet on November 11, 2003, 10:56:52 AM
Quote from: Question Everything

the KALI in Mr. Yambao's book simply means Kalirongan, the martial arts title in Pampanga, Philippines, where Mr. Yambao was from.

KA (once again) is its prefix denoting an abstract concept, while its suffix is -an.  the root is lirong, which is related to the Tagalog word Laro, which means to play.  to make the Tagalog word abstract, one simply adds the Ka- and the -an... KAlaro'AN.


Growing up in Philippines hearing KApampangan spoken - the terms for the word 'PLAY' are:
Mamialung, Maquialung, Pa'quialungan

So did Yambao or someone else in his system appropriate Tagalog terminology to a Kapampangan system?

--Rafael KAyanan--
 :P
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: logan on November 11, 2003, 11:11:52 AM
i only know.....

i train escrima but i think: kali sounds very good.
it sounds agressive. its sounds like a dark goddess.
a spy like mata hari. it sounds like a martial art
have too. its sounds like a very effektive / dynamic /
complete phillipino / stick / blade / empty hand art.
the name inspire.  
 :)
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on November 11, 2003, 01:18:36 PM
Woof All:

These things seem to have a certain circularity, so may I be forgiven if I repeat what I said earlier?

BEGIN

It seems to be a tradition in FMA to have terminology disputes with near religous fervor. To this American, it often seems analogous to an American and a Mexican over the word "negro". For one it is considered an unpleasant racial term, for the other it means "black". What an odd debate that would be!

Terminology is certainly not a forte of mine, , , , Concerning Kali, there seem to be many Filipinos of the opinion of our anonymous guest, and certainly its use is a minority one, but I am of the opinion that the term does have proper lineage. This point having been debated many, many, many times before I am uninterested to go into yet again. In that we use the term Kali, I merely note this diversity of opinion for your awareness.

, , ,

There are various reasons for the use of the term "Kali". Some are as described by the critics of the word. And some are not.

When used in the critical perjorative way against those who have other reasons, what communicates is a personally insulting tone/intent, and demands of proof can come across with a tone of "justify yourself to me" which tends to lead to "go fornicate yourself rejoinder" and Voila! -- a conversation devoid of forward purpose.

For the record, I believe the term to have historical merit. If you don't, I have no urge to persuade you.

But some of those that don't believe the term to be historically accurate, take an additional step and cast aspersions upon those who do.

Whatever.

The simple fact is that there is very little agreement about many, if not most things in Filipino history-- yet many seem determined to believe theirs as the one true version.

I've been around a while and I've heard countless times about Filipinos saying that the term is a fraud. Of course, the next stop in the syllogism is "How dare you, a euro-american, dare to disagree?!?"

OK, here's my teacher PG Edgar Sulite from an interview in Martial Arts presents "Filipino Martial Arts" (Graciella Casillas on cover)

ES: "In Mindanao, "kali" was the term used, but that doesn't mean it was the only one. , , , We must remember that according to the region where you live, the terms change and others apply such as 'estocada' and 'pagkalikali' and more"

Amongst the informed, the depth and breadth of PG ES's travels and trainings in the RP are well known, and many of these people may have heard of his book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima", an amazing collection of interviews and essays on various masters of the arts from around the RP.
, , ,

So anyway, what are we to do? Have a duel?!? Oh whoops, we can't do that-- no one challenged/disrespected PG Edgar's or GM Villabrille's use of the term to their face while they were alive. Well then, how about a trial by compurgation to solve the discrepancies amongst the sundry Filipinos with opinions on this?!? That would really settle it. Oy vey.  

BTW, currently Roland Dantes writes of indigenous use of the term in the south. Go find him in Mindanao and tell him how and why he's wrong.

Like these people we think the term is historically valid, we like it and we use it. If you don't, it is perfectly OK by me and I have no need or interest in changing your mind-- but it really is beyond me how anyone, Filipino or not, can claim to speak authoritatively on matters linguistic throughout the entirety of the Philippine Archipelago-- and into Indonesia to boot!

If you want 'proof' I ain't the man to give it. Go elsewhere. But if you tell me this proves that there is no proof, , , ,

END OF QUOTED MATERIAL

One of the ditties that I use in teaching is that "Intelligence is the amount of time it takes to forget a lesson."  By engaging in this conversation I have revealed a short memory. At first I was intrigued by QE's perspective and background, but unfortunately things have gone the way they usually seem to with all this.

I thought by saying TWICE that no personal dig was intended that the simple, sincere transparency of my question about whether being a white mormon would affect his access would be apparent, but apparently it set off quite a stream of consciousness that as best as I could tell was more related to prior experiences in QE's life than to the spirit in which the question was asked.  

Oh well.

Moving on to the next point I'd like to address: perhaps when QE says "the difference with KALI is that it is arrogantly promoted as the historic title of the ancient art of the Philippines" we get to some of the reason for his emotion on this subject.

 Like I said in my earliest posts of this thread "There are various reasons for the use of the term "Kali". Some are as described by the critics of the word".  I thought it clear enough at the time, but perhaps this needs to be rephrased so that the point better communicates-- there is no disagreement here that the word Kali is sometimes used in a way which is unsound and braggadocious.  (In that we are dealing with the mad, merry world of FMA how rare is that?)

However, this does not mean that ALL use of "Kali" is such.

There seems to be more than a little heat in certain quarters-- displayed here in the references about Maphilindo, Majadpahit, Kali, certain grandmasters who've never been the to Philippines, etc-- aimed at Guro Inosanto.  I confess puzzlement at the ire of his use of the terms Maphilindo and Majadpahit-- the very point of the terms is to not lump non-Filipino arts in with FMA!   It seems that Guro I. is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

There have been repeated claims of "Prove it here and now!" on this thread with regard to "Kali".  

This kind of reminds me of some FMA tournament held in Bumf*ck, Delaware a few years back that was billed as a "World Championship".  Calling it such, didn't make it such and I say this even though my students won most categories (although a year after the fact, the promoter also reversed a ruling in one of my students favor in order to make himself World Champion.)  It wasn't a world championship because the best weren't on hand.

Similarly why call on me to make the case for "Kali"?

My knowledge of these things is such that I was trying to think of the name "Yambao" but was afraid I might confuse it with the samurai movie "Yojimbo" and so said nothing LOL  

Why not seek out those qualified to speak in this regard instead of me?  

I've seen the Villabrille people defend Kali well on the ED, my teacher PG Edgar Sulite thought it sound, GT Leo Gaje thinks it sound, Roland Dantes thinks it sound (my emails in this regard were vaporized along with three months of other emails-- big bummer :-(((  ) Guro I., who studied with 26 FMA GMs/Manongs from around the RP , many of them born well before 1900 (including the well-travelled Manong LaCoste) thinks it sound.  

Concerning this last point, it may be worth noting that language changes-- especially in the Philippines.  The usages to which a Manong LaCoste was exposed in his travels in the late 1800s PROBABLY are different than current ones.  How dispositive can it be then that QE has not heard the term?

Next point:

"Bored" writes

BEGIN

"you are right, we do fundamentally agree, that the modern usage of kali is a modern phenomena with roots more likely in the US, rather than PI. My own feeling on the matter, is like any other historic claim. It is not the burden of the doubters to prove (sic) its validity, but those bringing up the claims. In much of the same vein in which the code of kalantiaw was disproven by Scott, without historic basis kali claims lack reality."

END

He may well be right-- unless the recording of the historic basis is cloudy.  In which case the claims would be true, but not really provable.

In closing, a brief statement of the use of terminology in this regard of Dog Brothers Martial Arts, of which I am the founder.

We use the following terms

1) Kali: because we like it, because in America it has come to be the most common term, because IMHO there are technical matters more suitably described as such than as eskrima or arnis, because of the reminder that there was a part of the Philippines which was not really conquered by Spain, because my teacher uses the term-- take your choice.

2) Kali-silat & others: because silat is a part of the system too.  Whether its Filipino Silat or Indonesian or Malaysian or whatever we're less clear.

3) FMA based:  Because there are substantial parts of the system which are not FMA, but we consider FMA to be the heart and soul of the system.

4) A Majadpahit system with some BJJ too:  Probably pretty precise although it understates the FMA role, but also pretty useless with anyone except the tiny handful of people who know the term Majadpahit.  The purpose is to communicate, not befuddle or trigger MEGO reactions (My Eyes Glaze Over)


If you tell me there are logical inconsistencies in this, I will agree.  I just use the term that best facilitates communication with the person with whom I am talking.  I don't do/discuss/debate history.

Allow me to close with a story, the point of which I leave up to you, dear readers.

I named my second Akita "Moro".  My intention was to equate the brave warrior spirit of the muslim resistance to the Spanish and then American rule with the brave warrior spirit of the Akita.  Then I was chastized on the Eskrima Digest for using a disparaging term equivalent to sounds-like "negro"-- the complete opposite of my intention.  "How could this be?" I asked.  "What about the MILF of today?"

Now at this moment those of you out there who occasionally skim porn spam  :wink:  may be puzzled.  Doesn't MILF stand for "Mothers I'd Like to Fornicate?"  Well yes it does, but it also stands for "Moro Islamic Liberation Front" too and my point was "How can it be wrong for me to use the term if they do?"

I confess to never understanding the answers I was given to this question (analogous to the rap band "NWA"-- "Negroes with Attitude"???)and puzzled over what to do.  After all, the dog was imprinted on thinking his name was "Moro".  Upon reflection I renamed him "Morro Bay" (a famous bay here on the California coast) and call him "Morro" for short and he still comes when called.

with this, it is my sincere hope to be outta here,
Crafty Dog
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: And another bored guest on November 11, 2003, 10:16:40 PM
Quote from: Anonymous
Quote
"Unfortunately, from what little I know of it, the Filipino culture is so mired and muddled from the invaders to their motherland, it's true heritage would be difficult to fathom. This applies to the both the benevolent versus the oppressive invaders. Except for a few zealots, it would be even difficult to tell what a true Filipino is. I doubt any natives there have not been "integrated" or "conquered" by another imported culture."


you'll say all that about Filipinos, with what little you know, even so far as saying that there is no "true Filipino" anymore, with no need for research (because according to you, all is lost) just so you can rightly say, "I train KALI, the ancient, pure, lost, bladed art of the Philippines"?

how ironic...


I reaffirm my statement and add to it by saying that I do not care what it is called.  As long as it works, call it whatever you like.  I don't care.  I don't refer to it as kali, anyways.  I call it by the main name I trained under, which is ekrima.  If somebody else does I respect what they want to cal their art.  None of my business.  I never named their art even though I practiced it.  You got it all wrong, bud.  It's not my problem as long as it works for me.  Heck - I was a hardcore gung fu guy at one time before discovering FMA.  I evolved and used it as a stepping stone foundation to other combative systems.  Some people don't want to adpat or evolve, that is their issue.  If they want to hold onto the past, I am not going to stop them as long as they respect my boundaries and beliefs.  It's all quite simple.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: burnsson on November 12, 2003, 12:52:11 AM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Upon reflection I renamed him "Morro Bay" (a famous bay here on the California coast) and call him "Morro" for short and he still comes when called.
g



that's political correctness on a higher level.

 :wink:
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Robert K. on November 17, 2003, 12:27:25 PM
My name is Guro sa Pangkinamut Robert.  I am from Kali sa Lungsod of barangay Sinugba, Cebu.  Our Grand Tibak is named Alfredo Almuranas.

I do not like this question of where is Kali from? Kali is the Filipino original art.  We use the Pinuti and the Sundang.  Our Grand Tibak still possess a Samurai sword from world war 2, which he used to kill many Hapons.  

Our Grand Tibak used Kali because this what he read in Professor Placido Yambao?s book.  Kali is not from Mindanao.  We Bisayas have fought the Moros for centuries.  They took our women and killed many men and children.  We still fight them today.  They bomb our churches and kill our brothers in Mindanao.  Kali is not theirs, it is ours.

Yes, we do not use the word Kali in Cebu or anywhere in the Bisayas.  I believe Kali came from Luzon, because this is where Professor Yambao is from.  We do not know where this word come from, but it is the word of our Art.  Maybe it come from the Igorots of the Mountains in Luzon.

We like this word Kali and we use it, because our Art is about the sword.  Eskrima is a Spanish word, it is not Filipino.  Kali is Filipino.  Maybe we do not know where it is from, but it is better than calling our Art Spanish, when they are our enemies.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest on November 19, 2003, 11:07:59 AM
Quote from: Robert K.
My name is Guro sa Pangkinamut Robert.  I am from Kali sa Lungsod of barangay Sinugba, Cebu.  Our Grand Tibak is named Alfredo Almuranas.

I do not like this question of where is Kali from? Kali is the Filipino original art.  We use the Pinuti and the Sundang.  Our Grand Tibak still possess a Samurai sword from world war 2, which he used to kill many Hapons.  

Our Grand Tibak used Kali because this what he read in Professor Placido Yambao?s book.  Kali is not from Mindanao.  We Bisayas have fought the Moros for centuries.  They took our women and killed many men and children.  We still fight them today.  They bomb our churches and kill our brothers in Mindanao.  Kali is not theirs, it is ours.

Yes, we do not use the word Kali in Cebu or anywhere in the Bisayas.  I believe Kali came from Luzon, because this is where Professor Yambao is from.  We do not know where this word come from, but it is the word of our Art.  Maybe it come from the Igorots of the Mountains in Luzon.

We like this word Kali and we use it, because our Art is about the sword.  Eskrima is a Spanish word, it is not Filipino.  Kali is Filipino.  Maybe we do not know where it is from, but it is better than calling our Art Spanish, when they are our enemies.


Well, that settles it.  Straight out of the mouth of a native Filipino.  Can't argue that and gotta' respect what he says.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Rafael Kayumangi on December 06, 2003, 10:39:20 AM
Quote
Quote

Kali is authenticated as follows:


the following doesn't really "authenticate".

Quote
Kali is found in the language of the filipino
alphabets. In the first four Alibata or Babayin the
original filipino language: A ba (ka )da. Open the
yahoo search for Alibata and you see the explanation.


the syllable KA can also be found in Japanese, Arabic, English, Indonesian, etc. (it's pretty much found in most, if not all, languages)

Quote
Meaning the filipino language is full of meaning and
the two letters as spelled KA =a prefix for verbs in
filipino words: As Ka-lipay or happiness, Ka-lisod for
sadness, Ka-libutan for the world, Ka-limutan to
forget, ka-lirungan meaning, knowldege and etc.


it's not a prefix for VERBs, but rather for abstract concepts: KAmatuuran (truth), KAsaysayan (history), KAlayaan (freedom), KAlinaw (peace).

Quote
KA-IS WORD FOR RESPECT for Sir, your highness,your
excellency,your honor.
All persons in the early days were addressed as
Ka-pedro or Ka Jose or Ka Juan. As Ka-Marc. Ka Dan or
Ka leo.The word KA is a word to address the head of
the Iglesia ni Kristo , a religious group in the
Philippines with more than 5 million members. The head
of the Church is KA FERDIE MANALO.


this is accurate to some degree.

Quote
The rebel group in the Philippines( NPA) they address
their leaders as KA like Ka Roger. This word Ka must
be express with sincerity and greast respect.


the word KA' within the NPA stands for KAsama (comrade).  it's addressed to everyone who belongs to this movement.

Quote
Ka- is found in the flag of the first katipunan group
who revolted against Spain. The Ka-tipuneros or the
revolutionarios against the Spaniards in 1800 use the
sign K in their hats and all the flags displayed
during the assaults.


the KA stands for KAtipunan (group/society), also has the extra meaning of KAlayaan (freedom).  the original flag contains three KKKs, the KKK stands for: KAtaastaasan KAgalanggalangan Na KAtipunan ng Mga Anak Ng Bayan (the Highest and Most Respectable Society of the Sons of the People/Nation).

Quote
Kali was more of a Philosophy of the early filipinos.
This philosophy was a major drive in the filipinos
bravery  using the bolos charging  against the
Spaniards guns and spanish blades that demoralizes
every assualts surprised the Spanish officers and the
whole Spanish regime in the Philippines. Spain lost
the revolution selling the filipinos at $ 3.00 dollars
per head in the treaty of Paris in 1889.


out of nowhere, having listed various uses of the syllable KA, this is suppose to connect to KALI?  this is somewhat of an equivocation on the writers part, in which he inserts the term KALI surreptiously after having "authenticated" the KA syllable prior.  

KALI or any of this term's derivation was never used among KAtipuneros or at any time during the Spanish/Filipino or the American/Filipino War in the late 1890s and the early 1900s.

Quote
Kali found its landmark in Panay Island where the
first constitution of the land was established by Datu
Kalantiaw: The Code of Kalantiaw and the Code of
Maragtas.The influence of kali as a Philosophy were
found among the natives of Panay and the arrival of
Ten Datus from Borneo established the gathering of the
early inhabitants at KALIBO now the captial of Aklan
province where the famous Boracay White Beach Resort
is found, an international well known beach resort
found in Panay.


there is NO mention of Kali (as the ancient martial art) in the Code of Kalantiaw.  in the town KAlibo, KA is the prefix while the root is LIBO.  hardly a connection to KALI as the 'ancient' martial art.

Quote
Another remarkable place as a landmark
of Kali is the town of KALINOG- where every year the
celebration of the festival called PINTADOS is held to
celebrate the famous battle in Kalinog-meaning
earthquake where the filipinos rebels painted their
faces as disguised to infiltrate the Spanish garrison.
In northern Luzon province of Kalinga Apayao , a place
where the Kalimen settled in the north and today the
natives practice Kali in form of PIKA_PIKA.


again KA in KAlinog is the prefix, linog is the root. it seems the author is making a big deal about the happenstance of the syllable KA and LI being together in some words and town's name.  if we follow this logic, we'll have to also connect the Bisayan word KAlibanga', which means diarhea, to the term KALI.  which would be very silly.

Quote
To check the working Philosophy of Kali, known as
distinct bravery, during the Marocs time, the Army
soldiers that fought in Mindanao against the Muslim
rebellion were all the Ilongos soldiers from Panay and
Negros, other tribes like the Ilocanos and Tagalogs
were moved out to Manila. The only group of tribes in
the Philippines that the Muslim in Mindanao respects
is the Ilongo.
Even in the Marines now, only the
Ilongo marines can infiltrate Muslim rebels.


there's a big ILONGO rhetoric/proganda theme in this paragraph, so i have a pretty good idea who wrote this now.  but, in truth the Muslims, like any other group, respect those who respect them in return.  the Ilongos don't have a monopoly with the concept of respect in the Philippines. they're no braver than the next guy.  and more importantly the word KALI is Not indigenous to the ILONGOs of Bacolod or any other parts of the Philippines.

Quote
KALI as a art is accepted by the Armed forces of the
Philippines recognized by the President of the
Philippines, Former President Ramos, Secretary of
National Defense and the Present President ( open
pekiti-tirsia.net ) check the blackboard.


yes, KALI is now part of the martial arts terminology within the Philippine Military, but it has only been until recently when Pekiti Tersia began training them.  Mr. Gaje himself began using the term KALI while he was in the East Coast of the US in the 1970s, if memory serves me right.  again, no historical evidence for KALI.

Quote
Every year the town of Salvador Benedicto in Negros
celebrates the kali-kalihan festival.


i've never heard of this, i'm very interested as to how they began using the term.  and if the term has the same meaning as the martial arts KALI.  i'd also want to know when the festival started.  the big festival in Cebu City, to offer an added perspective, Sinulog began in the 1980s to attract tourists.

Quote
Kali is blade oriented fighting discipline. No
disarming, no blocking, no kata no judo throws no
aikido or jujitsui nor kicks is applied during the
fight.


ALL arts in the Philippines involve the use of a blade.  the rural areas tend to use the longer blades (i.e. kampilans, barongs, sundangs, pinutis, and other farming tools), because people tend to walk around with these implements.  in the urban setting however, since it's fairly uncommon to see a person walk around with a sword or any other long blade weapon, they've done away with the sword or long blade (as the rural folks have done away with the blow gun, bow/arrow, and shields).  but they surely still train with the knife, since there's more chances of you being poked with a knife or barbecue stick in the city.


this is a very good dissection.  thank for all this information.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest Pinoy on December 10, 2003, 01:38:41 PM
I moved to the States a couple of years ago from the Philippines.  I was a member of the Cadet Officers Corps during my high school & almost joined the Philippine Military Academy (I am not sure if it was good thing not to have continued to pursue the career).  As an officer, we carried sabers, which we called Kalis.  Kalis is the preferred term used by the Philippine Armed Forces because it is detached from the use of Espada ? a Spanish term for sword, blade, saber, etc.  Kris is the wavy-like sword from Southern Philippines more popularly known being used by the ancient Filipinos in Mindanao.  I am by the way, from Luzon ? the northernmost region of the archipelago.  

This whole thread really is very interesting, as I believe this is the only thread I probably read from page 1 to 8.  It is unbelievable, for me, how there is so much interest in the pursuit of the historicity of the word Kali which in effect, necessitated the pursuit for knowledge of Ancient Filipino history.  Why, I can only name 1 or 2 of all the friends I have had back home who had the same tenacity in trying to find ?real? answers to our nation?s historical questions.

I have always wanted to learn Arnis since the very first time we were given basic lessons of the art during my Karate class.  However, the lack of information on where the really good masters are held me back.  Eventually, when I grew up, readings have shown me that majority of the great masters came from the Southern Philippines.  Given the geographical set up of the country (and a big consideration in ?economics?), it was almost impossible for me to learn as I would need to move to Cebu in order to regularly attend classes.  Further, I find out from those readings that most of the Grandmasters were already in the United States & in Europe (I guess this should place a whole new perspective to the competence & expertise of the Guro/Teachers here in the US).  Alas, I had to let go of that dream ? for the meantime.

Fast forward to the present.  I have been looking for an FMA school here in the US (finally I can afford to do so!) & it was only now that I have learned that Kali was another term used for Arnis & Eskrima.  All the while, I thought it was another martial art from another southeast asian country!  Now, now.  This is not meant to be derogatory ? in fact this is something really good.  It is correct what one poster said that the PI is the crossroads of martial arts.  It has always been the practice by a great number of masters of any form of martial art in the PI to name a club, school or discipline after their own name, own order or own preference, because their styles have been influenced one way or another by some other martial art.  Fact is, Arnis is Arnis, Eskrima is Eskrima, Kali is Kali, Okinawan is Okinawan & Shorin Ryu is Shorin Ryu.  Ergo, FMA is FMA.  Maybe we should just call it that ? FMA.  I believe it would be very, very hard to find the lineage of the word Kali as it is very, very hard to find any other aspect of our nation?s ancient culture.  Yes, we have been influenced by so many cultures that at face value it seems that we do not have a solid Filipino culture of our own.  Fact is the existing culture IS our culture ? a colorful mixture of different cultures making a Filipino one of the most versatile and adaptable individual in the world.  Being that as premise, it means that any individual who truly practices by HEART the Filipino Martial Arts in principle is one who is capable of developing his/her skills to adapt to the ever-changing scenarios (combative or otherwise) in our daily lives.  We may not be able to find out the true lineage of the word Kali in the near future to validate its historicity, but if it has been used for the last 40 years, then that?s enough history for me.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guest Lang on December 11, 2003, 09:39:00 AM
Quote
I've seen the Villabrille people defend Kali well on the ED, my teacher PG Edgar Sulite thought it sound, GT Leo Gaje thinks it sound, Roland Dantes thinks it sound (my emails in this regard were vaporized along with three months of other emails-- big bummer (( ) Guro I., who studied with 26 FMA GMs/Manongs from around the RP , many of them born well before 1900 (including the well-travelled Manong LaCoste) thinks it sound.


we have to keep in mind that the persons mentioned above, although accomplished fighters, are not trained historians or academics.  Villabrille was a farm worker, so was Lacoste, i don't believe Gaje has a degree in Philippine history, nor Sulite for that matter.  Dantes began with modern arnis, then met Sulite in Manila, a body builder/philippine actor, he is by no means an expert in Philippine history.

in the 1950-70s, before the research of Philippine history was brought to the publics' attention, rumors abound in this subject.  if a rumor broke out of how Filipino warriors once invaded the chinese empire in the 1300s, then the very persons mentioned above would also claim this "fact" to be true, without examining facts and posing theories, etc. etc. just so they can promote their art.

when non-historians, non-academics attempt to explain events, words in history, you end up with Gaje's "Kali Authentication", and other fumblings.  it is understandable that these Masters want to promote their pride in their arts and culture.  but, we should not rely on their "expertise" when it comes to history and the analysis of culture.

i think we will do more for them, if we examine history for them than have them explain it to us, since new students to FMA now have advance degrees and are able to affect some research.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: haumana2000 on December 11, 2003, 03:06:20 PM
This is one of those issues that may never REALLY be solved.  I teach a course in Polynesian pre-history.  The lack of written records leaves a huge opportunity for personal interpretation.  For instance, as I spoke of in another thread, just about every island nation in what we know of as Polynesia speaks of their beginnings in a mythical homeland called Hawa''iki, Hawaii'nui' or a variation of the above this was supposedly located somewhere near the society islands or what is french polynesia today.  NOW, try telling that to a native samoan, and he'll probably crack you on the head and tell you your full of it.  Samoans claim they could only come from Samoa the land of their people and a re a very fiercely proud group.  (Interestingly, one of the principal islands in Samoa is Savaii) sounds a lot like Hawaii no?  The point is that these belief systems are passed on from generation to generation, and have more to do with oral tradition, legend, and a sense of duty to keep telling the story than actual truth.  We all know as in religion, belief systems are fragile, and extremely sensitive subjects (i.e. religion).  So I can trace the peopling of Pacific Island natives back through either Micronesia, or Melanesia depending on the region, and all the way back to southeast asia, and even back it up with historical evidence, but the real fact is that no matter what i say, people will believe what they want.   Like religion, tearing apart the subject is exteremely volitile and you'll never win. Me i'll stick with..... oh, forget it!
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2003, 05:17:02 PM
i believe the difference between ur 'hawaii' analogy and the kali debate is that with the absence of hawaii in the samoan creation story, the fact that the maoris, peoples in madagascar, seychelles, and others, have similar 'hawaii ki', 'hawaii nui', 'savaii', etc. origins have a certain collective commonality.

the kali story is the exact opposite.  for an art so ancient and well respected, there is a strange absence of this word in all the various indigenous language groups in the philippines. as an expert in oral traditions, especially polynesian as you've indicated, wouldn't you wonder why there is no collective commonality, akin to your 'hawaii' analogy, when it comes to kali?
Title: haumana2000
Post by: Anonymous on December 12, 2003, 07:52:39 AM
wrong ocean brotha, Maoris are the native peoples of Aotearoa (now new zealand) Not Madagascar or the seychelles.  Neither Arnis, or Escrima are pre-hispanic in origin either.  We know that it did exist prior so the question really is, what to call it?  If you don't know the name, just that it did exist is it not up to the practitioner himself?  The Micronesian martial art of "Bwang" is very similar in appearance and culture to the FMA, but is spread across many of the atolls the region, so there are a ton of different names for it, depending upon who you ask sometimes there is no name ascribed to it. When I was learning Fma growing up, we just called it fighting.  My Lolo use to call techniques playing tricks or he would describe a jab cross as"when somebody play jack dempsy to you".  I think the whole topic is up to personal interpretation, whether it's Kalibanga, Pangamut, Kali, Arnis, Escrima, monkey grabs the peaches style, or fma.  After all it is the art, the culture, the history, the movements, and the effectiveness of a style does pre-date hispanic influence thats important, the name should be the least of worries.  My kids learn the technique, as will their children as part of their history thats all that counts to me.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Guester on December 12, 2003, 08:47:16 AM
i think everyone knows maoris are from new zealand, brada.  we've all seen "the whale rider" (good movie, by the way). i think he was simply trying to state that the maoris, and other polynesians, to include the peoples of madagascar and the seychelles (who too are polynesian decent) share this common word: "hawaii" or many of its close derivations.

why does this common"ness" within the philippine arkipelago prove absent when it comes to the word "kali", is simply his point.  

eskrima, arnis are just names.  of which we know the origins to, which is why we are not arguing about them. "kali" however is full of unanswered questions, because of its inexistence in today's languages in the philippines, which is the opposite of the 'hawaii' phenomenon being offered as an analogy.  this inexistence can be easily interpreted into many different theories.

naming things into existence is what we do as human beings (no other animal does this), which is why people feel strongly about names in any circumstance.  if the name you use does not have validation, then people will attack it.  

example, if you call an automobile, "zoobfitizik", then people will wonder as to the origins of this word.  if you insist that it is the "ancient" name of cars before the time of christ, people will begin to wonder and question.  but, if you confess and say, " ZOOBFITIZIK is just a name i made up for cars when i was a kid, not really that ancient", then people will accept it.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: old filipino saying on December 12, 2003, 09:52:11 AM
there's an old filipino saying, that goes something like this:

"watching a dog chase its own tail is funny, but after awhile it's not so funny anymore and you find other ways to occupy your time"
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on December 12, 2003, 10:15:58 AM
Woof OFS:

ROTFLMAO!

What dialect(s) is this saying from?  And, how does it go that dialect?

Yip!
Crafty Dog
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: old filipino saying on December 12, 2003, 10:23:22 AM
hello Crafty,

wish i could give u the filipino version, but i don't really speak it.  my teacher who's from cebu has plenty more sayings like that, but he says it in english for us. wish i understood cebuano.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: haumana2000 on December 12, 2003, 01:19:39 PM
The people of Madagascar or Malagasy peoples would be a lot closer to those of S.E asia than Aotearoa due to it's proximity to the indian ocean, but yeah they all share a commonality as it is beleived this is where all of the original polynesians came from, but shoot most Samoans, and Tongasn as well seem to dispute this fact.   In fact, In Hawaii, and Los Angeles most Samoans see Pinoys as wanna be polyneisans which is pretty sad.  (I have to sit on both sides of the fence, but i mean that in the manliest of ways!!!)  Anyway, There is a movie called Broken english where wou can see some very nice Taiaha (maori) fighting in it.  And hell yeah Whale rider was awesome.  SO...... does anyone know the true origin of the name  Kung FU??? How about those that claim Karate is hundreds of years old when we know it's pretty darn recent in origin.  Gee, guys we are the only ones I ever see out there doing this, and what is sad, is that to outsiders who may even consider taking it up as an art click on an internet site and say shit, what a bunch of haggling old women.   The main question is why would you want to put it in a box anyway?  for that why dont wee just say ok, this is what it's gonna be called, and only this, better yet, only "authorize" certain techniques to be taught, how about making EVERYBODY go by the same ranking system?  The beauty of the Filipino martial tradition is that it is fluid, never ceasing, always changing, and dynamic.  it just is...
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on December 12, 2003, 10:37:34 PM
in correction, east asian martial arts does have discussions like these regarding terminology, but unlike filipino martial arts, they (wing chun, karate, tae kwon do, hapkido students) tend to be more dogmatic--what master says goes. or they just don't care about terminology, bcuz they pay their 100 bucks a month, get their uniform, etc. and sleep content.  

FMA is a closer, more personal community (since we have yet to reach the level of commercialization as others have become, or maybe we refuse to), which means we argue more, like any family.  

to clear the matter, further, we are not arguing about other names of FMA (i.e. Panantukan, Sikaran, Pangamut, etc.) because we can find linguistic origins to these words, linking them to root concepts, as well as its geographic/ethnic location in the Philippines.  so, we are not really arguing about what we should call our art, because we already have names for them, which we can clearly validate and locate origins to.

we are simply discussing the term kali.  and the argument here is simple: whether it is truly the name of the lost ancient mother art (if so, how?), or is this instead a new term.  if it's really an old term then great, we should be able to prove it.  if it's not, then let's say it's not so we can move on, instead of falsely promoting a word.  think of it as academic quality control.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on December 12, 2003, 10:57:15 PM
A most reasonable statement of your position.

Just to clarify one point though-- only some users of the term Kali are asserting "lost ancient mother art" and others (I would consider myself in this camp) simply are of the opinion that the term has historic validity.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: guest on December 13, 2003, 10:14:57 AM
Quote
only some users of the term Kali are asserting "lost ancient mother art"


you are correct in this.  specifically, the "some users" you are referring to all belong to PT Kali.  Villabrille's Kali, Inosanto, Sayoc, Atienza, and i believe Doce Pares has also joined the band wagon, but are not as dogmatic about their use of the title Kali--they are more open minded.

Mr. Gaje and Mr. Tortal, specifically have done various speeches about the authenticiy of Kali as the original art, better than any other Philippine art.  of course their basis for this claim falls short of proving anything.  we've seen their rhetoric sway backwards and forwards on this throughout the years.

the irony though, is that PT Kali has now become very well interwined into the Philippine political/military landscape.  they, of course, now train the Armed Forces of the Philippines, and the Nat'l Police.  if you notice their new students, they are all sons of accomplished and well connected Filipino families.

with this power and connection, Kali is now being used to "bully" other martial artists in the Philippines.  hence all the "come to where the flavor is, i'll challenge anyone, anywhere, anyway" rhetoric of PT Kali in the Philippines today.

i actually respect the used of Kali by other organizations.  but, when Kali is promoted in the above context, as the "lost mother art of the Philippines, which can defeat any other", then we have a dissonance from our intended quest of honor and service.
Title: interesting post from another forum
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2003, 11:30:43 PM
Quote
Subject: my apologies
Author: jacob smith
Date: 20/12/2003 19:50
  i feel that i might have offended you with my questions, sir. i am not here to argue, but merely to share my opinions and to question. if you have read all of my posts, you'll know that i'm doing my preliminary research for a book now in progress. eventually, i hope to speak with you in person as civilized individuals, not fight you.

you've already offered us your version of the Canete challenge. received with appreciation.

the reason i'm asking about Kali is because i cannot write fully about this term, if i just fall back on simple conjectures and presumptions. students of FMA now are more sophisticated than in the 1970s. they have already read of the 10 datus, the code of kalintaw, sri visaya, the school of bothoan, they know from current research that there is no Kali found here.

they have also read about Kamut Lihok is the source of Kali story, or that Kali comes from Kalis which is the mispelling of the Keris used by Muslim Filipinos. they also have read of Kali is the Hindu Goddess of India, hence it is the Filipino Fighting art. which makes no sense since Hinduism never really established a foot hold in the islands.

the Kali philosophy used by those who fought the Spaniards, the Americans, and the Japanese. if this is true why didn't Jose Rizal, Antonio Luna, and other filipino revolutionary fighters write of this philosophy and title? i work with many filipinos who fought in WWII, yet when i ask them about Kali, they ask me what this word is.

i'm sure you have never heard of this word Kali as the filipino fighting arts, either, before you came to the US in 1972. this is why you yourself used Eskrima and Arnis. during the 1960s and 1970s only two main groups used the word Kali in California, and that's the Inosanto and Villabrille schools.

so, if we are to write fully about this word, then we have to come to terms with it. if we discuss this word, and people get offended then this is counter productive and people will never know where kali originated.

yes, there is a word kali in Hiligaynon meaning to dig. and there is a town in Panay named kalibo. but there is also a soda in the Philippines named Cali and there is a Bisaya word Kalibang, and in Arabic there is a word for those who ruled after Muhammed and they are called Kalifat. and California begins with Kali. there is a tagalog verb, Kalisan, meaning to scrape off.

but, we cannot offer these mere syllabary connections as historical proof of Kali. much research has already resumed to shed light about Philippine history, this is why i'm staying in touch with the Kasaysayan Dept and Anthroplogy Dept at the University of the Philippines, in Diliman.

i'm asking you how you came to use the word Kali in New York, so we may be able to fully write about this title with complete fairness. do not be offended of all my questions, they are meant to shed light, not darken our martial arts.

---------------

"You come also to Panay Island and start telling the Media and TV audience that the TEN Datus history is a Hoax and the SRI VIJAYA EMPIRE AND THE MADJAPHAJIT excludes the Philippines and that there is no KALI word that exists."

i've shared books in support of these new findings to enlighten you, not to offend you.


"You also come to Negros and question about the Kalikalihan festival in SALVADOR Benidicto town or more to your curiousity you proceed to Kalibo Aklan and check personally if there is really Kalibo."

the municipality of don salvador benedicto between the municipality of san carlos and calatrava is a new municipality established in the 1980s, during the reign of Marcos. when they wanted to create a festival in the 1980s they chose Kali having read Inosanto's book about it. i've done research here as well and it returns me to the US.

"If you have not visited these Islands it is about time that you come and let us know so we can accompany you and even Uli Weidle of the Pekiti-Tirsia will be willing to bring you to these places. No amount of discussion in any forum will convince people of that story."

I have visited the Philippines, there are places named Kalinga Apayo, Kalinog, and Kalisay, but they do not connect to Kali as the filipino fighting arts. as soon as i can obtain funding for the final research process, i will indeed contact you and mr. weidle. thank you for the offer.

------------------------
again...

i'm asking you when and how you came to use the word Kali in New York, so we may be able to fully write about this title with complete fairness. do not be offended of all my questions, they are meant to shed light, not darken our martial arts. thank you again. and much apologies if you were offended (as an American, i tend to be direct and blunt with my questions).
 
 
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on December 21, 2003, 12:49:58 AM
Woof All:

  It is getting a bit confusing with so many people signing simply as "guest".  I'd like to ask everyone to either use his real name or at least to choose ONE "nomme du keyboard".

Muchas gracias,
Crafty Dog

PS: Glad to see a mutually respectful tone starting to take root on this.
Title: meaning in tagalog
Post by: andres bonifacio on January 24, 2004, 06:36:09 AM
hi, i'm a tagalog and am familiar with old tagalog ("malalim na tagalog") used in the batangas province.

here's the literal meaning in tagalog of the following filipino words:

guro = teacher
punong guro = head teacher, school principal
panuntukan = for punching (never heard it used but is a "valid" word)
dumog = get smashed ie "nadumog ang katawan (body got smashed)"
silat = to fall
sikad = to trip/stumble (root word for sikaran)
kalis = saber/sword (also the term used by the RP military for saber)


traditional terms for the following english words:

teacher = guro, maestro
fist fight = suntukan
wrestling = buno
kicks = sipa, tadyak
fencing/swordfighting = espadahan, eskrima

also, "Florante at Laura", the epic/poem by Francisco "Balagtas" Baltazar which was widely popular during the 18th century philippines, used "KALIS" to describe a sword and also mentioned "ARNIS", and "BUNO" as games played by the youths.

i hope this helps :)


one question: what did GM Lacoste originally call his art?
Title: titles
Post by: DEADLYBALINTAWAK on January 25, 2004, 06:01:22 AM
these titles are a little bit sickening, however most of these titles are used by western practitioners of FMA, they are given titles because thats what most of them want.. Also most of the titles used by filipino teachers are only used for the western audiencei could not ever imagine someone in cebu or mindanao ever claiming to be a tuhon, punon guro or better yet DATU. they would have been laughed at. Also claiming these titles even now in most  parts of the philippines will make the claimer look like an IDIOT!!!!
also the title of grandmaster in the last 2o years has been abused severly in the FMA..
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: logan on January 25, 2004, 01:35:08 PM
could one of the fillipinos tell me what formalities and courteousies
are observed with older people and teachers?
like for example how in china it is considered very bad form to show someone the sole of one`s foot.

thanks for answering
bobi
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Beginner on January 25, 2004, 03:45:19 PM
Some basic courtesies that we usually do:

1.  If you know Tagalog, you have to use "po" after every sentence.  When saying "yes", instead of saying "oo", one must say "opo".

2.  When two people are talking (not necessarily older than you or someone of higher authority like that of a guro) & you cannot walk around them & you are forced to go through them, you must bow your head as you're passing them while excusing yourself.  I've been asked a good number of times by a lot of Americans why we kind'a "crouch" when walking in between people because it does look weird.

3.  When meeting an older relative, the more traditional Filipinos will do a "mano".  You carefully take his/her right hand w/ your right hand & "kiss" the back of his/her palm w/ your forehead.

4.  The young must not join in nor even listen to the conversation (unless invited) between/among older people.

5.  Unless you are asked to ask questions, you must follow the instructions given by older people or teachers w/o reservations.  You can always complain when they're gone but you have to do it.

6.  My grandmother's generation does not allow us to eat w/o a shirt on & w/ a hat on.

7.  You must not wear a hat inside the house.  Older people will look down upon this & you are considered rude or "bastos".

8.  You must not sit in a relaxed (i.e. crouched, legs crossed, etc.) position when you are visiting somebody's house - most especially if you have just met.

9.  You must always be apologetic w/ older people & women.

10.  You must always give a hand to older people & women.

There are a lot of things that I can't remember right now.  I guess because we practice the courtesies everyday, I kind'a take them for granted & I can't remember all of them - sorry.

Hopefully, I was able to help.

Much respects
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: logan on January 26, 2004, 05:35:17 AM
oh yes of course - thanks for answering.

greetings bobi
Title: more kali, folks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: dexter on March 09, 2004, 02:29:48 PM
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13180

Quote

“First of all have you been to Panay or Negros? there is no point discussing things with you since you haven't been here, if you just base your facts with the university facts then you are limiting yourself."

I have visited Dumaguete and I have visited Sagay for an Anthropology symposium there, although this was 5 yrs ago.



"How many species of animals do you think are out there that science have not discovered but are living there lives for thousands of years, we don;t know maybe there are still tribes that are living somewhere that we don't know of."

Actually, all tribes around the world have been mapped out. Specific research about clans are now underway. In geography, the oceans and the lands have been mapped out. Of course, all mammals have been discovered. But, you are right about the smaller species.



"The point is you don't base your facts from other peoples research, as I have pointed out so many times our history have been twisted by the spaniards, like the bible, do you think that bible of ours now is the exact replica of the original one? is it not that constantine the great did a lot of disecting and twisting of it to suit his political ambitions....? "

I'm basing my facts on liguistics, which if you follow in Philippine academics is revamping new ideas and improving older theories. The languages in the Philippines is still quite alive. Some areas might lose certain words, but these words are found in other areas. The anthropology and history dept in UP (the harvard of your country no less) are making new strides in linguistics. If you claim that your grandfather used the word KALI to mean the original art of the Philippines, then why doesn't this word show up in other ethno-linguistic groups in your country?



"My grandfather is no longer around to tell you face to face about kali, if you don't believe it's up to you, you said that kali came to america because of villaabril and Inosanto then that is one proof that it exists, there are things that are lost in written form but are alive in our culture and are told only by word of mouth, now if you are really looking for a rosetta stone that could verify your theory then dig for it as long as you live!"

Inosanto says he just mixed up KAmut and LIhok (words in Bisaya) to get Kali. Much like his MAPHILINDO. if Kali is a cultural phenomena, then why can't your own filipino anthropologists and linguists locate this word anywhere in the Philippines?



"but to say that it does not exist is a big mistake, don't genralize things before you have not exhausted all the angles of posibilities, like the t rex dinosaur is it not that a century ago scientist made general statements of this and that, and a century later de ja vu they found one set of new t rex bones somewhere in africa and changed the whole scientific theory! so better be careful of your theories especially if you are trying to make statements against family things, just as what you said that my grandfather just made up the kali word is a personal insult on my part..."

It wasn't insult, I was just simply using logic. If your grandfather did use the word Kali for your art, then you should've used this word from the very beginning, prior to NARAPHIL. Why the switch, when you came to america, then the re-switching afterwards? And how do you explain all the Spanish words present in your system?



"About the kali kalihan festival in salvador Benedicto you said that they just made it up when they read Inosanto's book, my god where in the hell did you get that?"

Maybe, my source was ill informed. Forgive me for writing that, but the fact that this word still originated in the US still holds true.



"did you know that the town of Salvador Benedicto was still un accessible in the 1970's? and the people who live there are called the pulahan tribes did you know that? bet you did not now you know better put that in your research notebook..."

the Pulahanes are not tribes in the Philippines Mr. Gaje. this is an Anthropologic fact. The history of the Pulahanes are found in Mr. Ileto's "Pasyon" and Mr. Mojares' "War Against the Americans", to name a few books. They were first documented in Southern Luzon, then in Samar, Leyte, Bohol, Negros, and Cebu in the 1900s and sometime prior. they were so named for the red they wore. They were a millenarian religious group which spread during the first years of the American occupation.



"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"

There is the connection I was looking for!!! So, basically it has you after having lived in America, having political connections, knowing your people will receive any American information rather easily, since colonial mentality (as Mr. Constantino has eloquently written about) is very rampant among Filipinos. Of course, when you offered the word Kali they accepted.



"so where in the hell can these people read about inosantos book these people don't even know any dan inosanto! they live way up in the mountain, I'm just wondering who is that stupid @$$ researcher who told you that, you better check on your facts before believing it.if you want to find kali customs and traditions then tell me I would be happy to accompany you there to see for your self, than sit in your computer and insult other people."

There is no need to re-check the Inosanto connection since we already know it was in fact you, having political connections in that municipality, who named it kalikalihan.



"About that arnis and escrima in new york I was appointed by General Fabian Ver to be the head of the Naraphil, and arnis was the one that General ver adopted, in support for that I was obliged to name my organization arnis escrima, but after the disentigration of Naraphil I had my kali since that was what my grandfather taught me to."

So, to recap… You are saying that your grandfather did call his art Kali? and this is what he has called it since his grandfather's time and so on?



"have you noticed those so called grandmasters who adulterated the Filipino martial art? you see we still believe that our great forefathers are still guarding this ancient art and had made it sacred, maybe they are in spirit now but we still believe that they are the guardians of this art of kali."

I've also done research in Mindanao. and you are right, the blade is still very much a part of their culture there. This is also true for some tribes in Nothern Luzon. the fact that the Philippines has a pretty sophisticated fighting arts isn't my contention here. it is the title Kali and its origin. For the sake of research, I want to write a complete rendering of your people's arts (this has been done for Japanese martial arts, Indonesian, and I know fellow doing research about India's fighting arts). So far all reference to this word KALI has taken me back to the US. I have yet to find Kali in any of your nation's ethno-linguistic groups. but, I do have alot of conjectures that relate to the origin of this word (i.e. Kali is a Hindu Goddess, which is silly because the Philippines was never hindu. Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in Mindanao, or Luzon, and I'm pretty sure they do not use it in the Bisayas. I have already offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman.

I cannot write a book and say, Mr. Gaje, Mr. Inosanto (who has never visited the Philippines) and Mr. Largusa (himself a Filipino-American), say that Kali is the ancient mother art of the Philippines--It must be so. This would greatly affect my status as a researcher. I am not like other researchers who have come before, regurgitating information word for word from those who he has interviewed. I actually have an academic background from your country, and I have many friends there that I love. I love your nation, and this is why I am badgering you for the truth. If you feel offended, this is natural because I'm taking all that you've held true and subjecting them to questions you've never asked yourself. But, the final outcome of this research will speak fairly of the Filipino Warrior Arts for the generation of filipinos to come. Which is why i'm doing this.

After we've subjected this word Kali and bombarded it with all possible attacks, if this title is legitimate then it will stand by itself. We wouldn't have to rely on "my grandfather used it, trust me, this is why it's true" evidence. Because i'm sure you already know, this is not academic.

Again, I look forward to meeting you sir, to hash out further the origins of the Filipino martial arts and its history.

 



"so there you are, is it not remote to think that some families or a group of people have preserved their own knowledge and customs and traditions?"


You are correct on this, sir. But, you’ve claimed that "Kali" is the name of the "ancient art of the Philippines". So, this is not a "family" or "group" martial art anymore. If Kali is indeed the "mother art of the Philippines", then we should also be able to come across this title in other regions and among other ethnic groups. Thus far only a very few people in the Philippines refer to their arts as Kali. Of course, the bigger FMA franchises have adopted this term (although they cannot explain its origin). Why, for example, is Kali not found in Mindanao and Luzon? (although there is Kalirongan, but as I’ve explained before KA (is the prefix) lirong (is the root word) and –AN (is the suffix)




"you said that villabrile mentioned kali in his art, they were the first migrants of filipino workers in Hawaii, now you claim that this people in the 1920's made up kali?"


Yes, the villabrille-largusa school uses KALI. I’m in contact with this group. So far, their instructors in California have not really explained Kali as well. Villabrille himself used ‘eskrima’ and ‘arnis’. Yet, it was Largusa who popularized the term Kali. Villabrille, a relative of the Illustrisimos of Bantayan Island, Cebu, switched from using ‘eskrima’ to Kali only in the 50s, which connects to Mr. Yambao’s book published in the 1950s in which he mentions the word "kali". Since Mr. Yambao was from a region in the Philippines which used "Kalirongan", there is a big chance that Kali is just a truncated version of this word. the Villabrille school have been kind enough to refer me to the island of Kaui to seek more information about the Kali connection with their school.





"if this person mentioned it in the 1920's then there is something or a grain of truth about it, remember there was no other fma in america that would create the so called politics, those migrant workers went to hawaii to work in the pineapple plantations and not to earn money in teaching fma, they had brought with them their knowledge and customs and traditions, just as your multi racial immigrants brought theres to america."


The documented use of the word Kali with this group dates to the 50s only. I’m still trying to research, whether in the 1920s and 30s the word Kali was used in Hawaii by Villarbrille. In contrast, I have interviewed several Filipino-American soldiers in California and Washington, who have fought with the 1st and 2nd Filipino Regiments in WWII. I’ve also interviewed some who were from the bolo/guerilla battalions in the Philippines. None have heard of Kali, although they are familiar with eskrima, arnis, pangamut, panantukan, etc. etc.




"there is no basis that this people would make up stories because they want to make a financial empire out of fma, just as some so called grandmasters are doing now, making up things claim as their own and make money out of it."


But you are one of these "grandmasters making a financial empire out of FMA", are you not? The biggest Filipino schools are Presas’ Modern Arnis, Canete’s Doce Pares, and your Pekiti Tersia (actually you are the biggest among these three since you are directly connected to the Philippine Gov’t). And then there are the American based schools, like Sayoc, Villabrille-Largusa, Inosanto-Lacoste blend, etc etc… How are you different from these "financial empires"?





"Now there are things that are kept within the family, just as fma techniques and styles are closely guarded secrets, my late uncle Teodorico Tortal did not talk to me for 2 years because I started teaching the family art. Now if you are looking for these things in books and from our heroes, is it not that these people were our model of principles? for sure if they had one in the family, they would not talk about since they are bound with an oath."


Yes, I am familiar with family arts, handed down thru generations. But, your art is the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". So, this means we should be able to see it in other groups and regions in the Philippines.








"Just like the voodoo and spell that we have in the Philippines, yes documentaries have been done films have been shown about it, but have you found a "published book " that was printed showing and teaching all the encantations of the black magic world, of course not! unless you become a disciple and be a member of the inner core of practitioners then you can get hold of one.

I saw one documentary in National geographic, a search for solomons mines, they tried to extract information from priests, sects leaders and had maps and physical evidence as well as historical records as basis for tracing the where abouts of it even the trade routes they try and analyzed it, but at the end what they got was a hypothesis that, that place could be"not confirmed" place of solomons mines! know why? because those who had proofs hesitate or WOULD NOT TALK so what can you get? how can you prove it?"



Yes, I understand that there are secrets that cannot be known by outsiders. But, the fact that people have read about and known about "solomon’s mines" is the basis of my argument. If something is big, people will know. The details might not be available, but the general nature of the claim will be known. For example, Kali is the ancient mother art. This is your claim. Because it is ancient and people have handed it down for generations, then we should expect some people to atleast be familiar with this title. I would understand that the specifics would be hidden. But, the opposite instead is true with Kali. People have never heard of it (in the Philippines), yet if you tell them about your techniques and weapons, people will be familiar. When you say baston, daga, punyo, florete, etc. people are familiar, but when you say Kali, people become less familiar. So, your analogy with voodoo or magic isn’t really similar with the whole Kali phenomena, because this phenomena is the exact opposite.






"So if we put it in the the position of kali, first of all I claim that kali is a philosophy as well a martial art. did you know how many historical artifacts and books that we lost during the Spanish era? have you realized that?"


Yes, I realize that much information have been lost, but not all. If you say, the title Kali has been passed down in your familiy through generations, then why can’t you offer a tighter explanation? Every martial art term, in any art, has an origin. When you say punyo, we can say it’s spanish for the butt of the sword. When you say wing chun, tae kwon do, karate, krav maga, judo, eskrima, arnis, pangamut, etc etc… we can all trace these terms to a meaning and where that meaning came from. This isn’t true for Kali. Kali by itself doesn’t mean anything in any Filipino dialects. This is the reason you fall on conjectures, when you try to explain its origin. This is why you say it’s from the Goddess Kali (is this what your grandfather said?), or the word is found in the word Kalinaw, Kalipay, Kalibanga', or that people in the NPA call each other Ka’ (this stands for kasama by the way, which is comrade). These are all conjectural tangents. also, I have spoken to a relative of yours who carry the name Dekiti-Tersia. Both of you hail from the same family style, yet both have two completely different versions of your art’s title. Because according to him, the Tortals have alsways used eskrima or arnis, Kali is something new introduced by you. I understand that he or you could be wrong, but the fact that there is this big difference in title, sparks one’s curiousity.





"one of those could be a book about kali, just as in our history books tells of the barangay form of government which came from the word balangay which discribes a big boat or raft that was used by early malay migrants in migrating to our islands, these was confirmed and authenticated when in the 1980's a raft was discovered was dug in mindanao."


If this word Kali has been lost then how did you or your family come to use it? If your answer is that it’s been passed down through the generations, then why can’t you provide its etymology and it’s meaning. When I say meaning, I do not mean merely saying, "Kali is a philosophy of the ancient Filipino warriors". When I say meaning and origin, I mean for example: wing chun came from the name of it’s originator, or eskrima is the filipinized spanish word to mean fencing, pangamut comes from kamut or hand in Bisaya, and they mean this... etc.





"Is it not that some of our cultures are left by the word of mouth? the martial arts in ancient time was not a political or a commercial trade, it was only practiced by a few and only handed down with in the family, it will take you strength and courage and persiverance to be adopted within ones family and be taught the art if you are an outsider, so rules are strict and codes of conduct are preserved, honor was the conduct of the day. ATMOST SECRECY IS THE RULE!"


Yes, by word of mouth. Information is transferred by word of mouth or in writing. If you claim that Kali is transferred thru word of mouth, then why can’t you explain its origin and meaning? The word kali is not a secret anymore, yet you still cannot offer a sufficient answer about its origin and meaning.






"That is why I said that there are things that you cannot find in books, or just in everday life, go to Siquijor, the island known as the black magik capital of the philippines and talk about hiring somebody to do a black magik or voodoo demonstration for you see if somebody will do it, they will just laugh at you, yeah maybe one will say ok I will do it for a fee, but do you think you will get the original? I don't think so these things are best kept secret not advertised in the yellow pages, unless you have an intermediary who is really a reliable one then you can get to the heart of it, so if you are just like those backpacking white guys that goes around interviewing people with a camera and pencil and paper and digging past research in libraries then forget it. if that was what you did then you were all the while barking on the wrong trees for so long!"


This is true. But you will pick up words like Hilot, Barang, Mananambal, Arbolario, Lanag, Orasyones, and Antin-anting. I learn of all these in Siquijor Island. Granted I wasn’t able to find out the specific details of these occult arts but the overall concept and meaning are available, although the secret details aren’t. But the opposite is true for Kali. We can’t figure out the meaning of this word, the general concept/title, but once you go inside your art words like espada, daga, fondo, abecedaria, florete, etc are very familiar since they are the same words used in eskrima and arnis.





"practicioners of the real art are not after being concernerned of coming out on films and tv's they die with their techniques and honor!"


But, you are on film, the internet, tv, newspaper, magazine, and radio. And you have taught your techniques to europeans, asians, and americans.




"if you are looking for that ethno linguistic connection then what are we? are we not ilonggos an ethnic group? "


Yes, but why aren't other Ilongos, at the very least, familiar with this term?



"villabrile where did he came from? is he not a member of an ethnic group too? "


Yes, he is cebuano. But no other cebuanos use this term. Although his cousin Illustrisimo, uses the word Kalis for his art. But, he doesn’t say it’s the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". His Kalis is related to Keris the sword in Mindanao, since he learned most of his art in Zamboanga. In fact, he has a totally different take on Villabrille, in his book “Secrets of Kalis Illustrisimo”.





"as I have said fma a long time ago was not for everyone it was a close knit group of people so you cannot just find it anywhere, just like you go to a supermarket and dept store and get everthing, or just talking to common people and find everthing, and to do statistics what do you think would be the percentage of people doing fma before compared to the population itself, coming in to terms the rigidity of the training and the strictness of discipline? so it is not remote that these things become extinct as the time passes and only a few survived the onslaught of time, if insects become extinct when there are millions of them you think it is remote that the Philosophy of kali had the same fate too?"


If the "philosophy of Kali" was extinct, how did you or your family come to rediscover it. And why can’t you explain the meaning of Kali and its origin?








"So what's the big deal? does that make kali any different? you are just trying to be political, in the first place kali pertains to a philosophy and martial art while arnis and escrima is only a name of an fma martial art. when I wanted to invoke the philosphical part of the art, I cannot say escrima and arnis have philosophies since they are just merely names of fma given by the spaniards. so I have to go back to the original roots which I owe my grandfather everything I know and the philosophy he had implanted on me."


You can’t really say that your cliche _expression "we choose life not death" is a philosophy. This is common sense, anybody would choose life over death. It is basic human survival instinct. And you can’t really say eskrima and arnis are without philosophy. When you say this, you’re saying that the WWII veterans I have spoken to, who have wielded their bolos and swords in actual combat in the Philippines, have no philosophy because they were not familiar with the title "Kali".





"As I have said, we were under the spanish rule for 333 years to be exact try and count how many generations could fit in that number?, is it not remote that the spanish words had it's influence on the terminologies? as you said language is evolving, so is it not possible that through time terms had evolved and all that was left was the original philosophy and the techniques."


Again, why can’t you provide a better explanation of this title? If you say that this word has evolved since, then we should still be able to figure out its meaning, like the words Hilot, Barang, Lanag, Anito. These are all pre-spanish words by the way, yet many filipinos are familiar with these terms, although not its details.







"Now that is the problem you base your facts from other peoples research, I think you misunderstood what I mean the pulahan tribe that I was talking about was the pulahan that PAPA ISIO headed in the town of Isio south of negros island. they were originaly called karul-an they were separated from the lowlanders, they had their own form of government and set of beliefs and customs and traditions, when the spanish came and tried to envade them they declared themselves independent so the the spanish regime masaccred the tribe but few survived and migrated to other places , but brought with them their own set of beleifs and customs and traditions later on as time passed by, they integrated with the pulahan that you are talking about and so they were known in time as the pulahan. And the remnants of these are still in Salvador Benedicto.The old name of Salvador Benedicto is Igmayaan."


Basing your initial research on other people’s research is what you’re suppose to do. This is the academic process. Now you are saying it’s not the pulahan (first, you said "it was the pulahan tribe), it was actually the karul-an tribe who were accepted among the pulahanes. The pulahan as you’ve explained used the word Halad, before you changed it yourself. Halad means offering in Bisaya. Records indicate that the municipality of Salvador Benedicto is composed of about 60% Bisaya (cebuano) and about 40% Ilongos (hiligaynon). This is from the census. My question now is, did the populace of Benedicto use the title Kali, or did they know about it, before you introduced it? Were they even remotely familiar with this term and its meaning?





"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"

"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? "



Yes it is political, if the populace didn’t use this title to begin with. This is what you call an Introduced Cultural concept. Very much the same with what christian missionaries do when they visit non-christian tribes and introduce foreign concepts, thus yanking them out of their already established cultural traditions. Also Kali is not a custom or a set of beliefs, unless you can explain how it is a custom or set of beliefs, besides just saying that "in Kali, we choose life not death, and health over sickness, etc etc.". This is not philosophy, this is just a collection of cliches. You will find the same "sayings" in Tai Chi, Chi Gong, or Karate. What you did was merely introduced the "kali is the ancient martial arts of the Philippines" concept, which was your own. They were not using Kali prior to you.






"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? To honor ones past glorious days? no amount of money could compensate for ones beliefs and principles, That is why Japan is lucky in terms of their cultural heritage, for they have preserved the Samurai and the bushido even though maybe just maybe none is left of this so called samurai warriors, or maybe because no Spaniard colonizer have set foot on their islands! to adulterate everything!"


But, making up a word "to honor ones past glorious days" is suspect since the rest of your art’s terminology is still very much related to other arts that use the title eskrima and arnis (like seguidas, florete, abecedario, baston, orasan, etc.)










"you say Phil. was never hindu now do you also mean that Phil. had never had any trading relations with India? How come we still call our teacher in tagalog Guro?"


I’m not saying there’s no Indian influence. We all know of the Vishayan empire. But, to make an assumption that Kali refers to the hindu goddess is somewhat of a stretch, because Hindu as a religion never really established itself in the Philippines. If it did then we should also see the Gods, Shiva, Ganesh, etc etc of Hindu represented. It is fairly common for cultures to borrow words from others, but it is unheard of for names of Gods to be borrowed without actual religious conquers. Examples of religious conquerings are the Moros of Mindanao, there is plenty of Arabic liturgical terms present because there was an actual Islamic foothold in this region, this was never true for Hindu. another would be the Spanish catholicization. Further, saying Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish in origin, and that this is the reason Kali is used, because it is Indian, is not logical. Because Kali would still be just another conqueror’s term, much like the Spanish eskrima and arnis.





"and we have documented writings which originated from the sanskrit?we did not read that in inosantos book! and don't you know that most some of the voodoo spells have indian words on them? so where did we get that maybe you can tell me or explain that to me. Look for the katipunan flag what is that letter in the middle? it's sanskrit in origin that is the letter K."


I have yet to have read this about actual sanskrit writings in the Philippines. When you say actual sanskrit, you are referring to the writing system in India. Many scholars have compared the Baybayin alphabets to actual sanskrit Alphabets, and although there are stylistic similarities, they are totally different. The K in sanskrit does not look anything like the K in Baybayin, the filipino alphabet on the Katipunan flag.






Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman.


"So is it not queer? that most of these words have kali as a root word?"


As I’ve explained, "Kali" is not the root of these words you keep bringing up. Linog, linaw and lipay are the roots, earthquake, calm and happy. When you add the prefix KA, it becomes an abstract concept. This is basic filipino grammar. Kalibang means diarhea in bisaya. Libang is the act of taking a crap. So, "kali" is not the root. To make connections into these syllables would also be to say that California and Calistenics and the town Calisco in Mexico are related to the "ancient Philippine martial arts".




"so that tells you something do more research and more diggings one day you might stumble on a rosetta stone and find something, the fact that these words have kali as the root word…"


Kali as I have explained is not the root. Ka is merely a prefix in the words you’ve mentioned.




"I suggest you learn their dialect and maybe you could find one, since I think the one that you talked to are all professors and academic people, why not learn the dialect itself of ethnic tagbanuas, tibolis, bilaans,etc. and live with them for years it could open windows of oppurtunity to you then you might find what you are looking for."


And this is what I, along with other researchers, are doing. Instead of relying on conjectures and empty rhetoric, and collections of cliches, we are trying to figure out the origins of these cultural phenomenons in the Philippines. On a side note, one of the anthropology Phd candidates in UP that I contact regularly in matters of terminology is himself T’boli from Mindanao. And I have asked him about Kali in his culture, and he informed me that this word is just not found among his people. Hopefully, I can do more research. But, there is still so much to learn about your nation.





"Anyway the research profession is a big, those that you refered to are just human beings that are fallable, they could commit errors why not do it yourself and do what they have done, maybe you could find something that they had missed out who knows right?"


Well this is what I’m doing, sir. I’m using the information already gained by others, and from them I am making my own discoveries and conclusions into the origins of Filipino martial arts and other cultural realities. the is the academic process. exactly, because people are "fallable", this is the reason we have to keep on comparing facts and theories and providing evidence for everything we claim. With your help and others, I will be able to write a complete account. I don’t want to follow what other researchers of Filipino martial arts have done, we both know that the written works thus far are great examples of mediocre research. So, please bare with me and we will get to the bottom of this. Thank you once again.

Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on March 09, 2004, 06:27:38 PM
Dexter:

  This is a very interesting post.  Would you tell us where you got its contents please?  

Thank you,
Crafty Dog
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: pretty_kitty on March 09, 2004, 09:48:13 PM
Marc,

I traced this exchange back to the following forum (2/21/04):
http://pub9.ezboard.com/fexxeslogikfrm9.showMessage?topicID=45.topic

It's a copy/paste into this forum.  A Google search brings up zero.

I'll contact the person who posted to this forum and see if he can help.

 :)
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: dexter on March 09, 2004, 10:22:06 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Dexter:

  This is a very interesting post.  Would you tell us where you got its contents please?  

Thank you,
Crafty Dog


I read it in Martial Talk, here's the link, again: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13180
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on March 09, 2004, 11:15:54 PM
Woof Dex:

Please forgive my excessively laconic previous post and allow me to clarify-- if I am not mistaken the URL you give is NOT the original posting of this material; it is a cut and paste.  So the question of this material's provenance remains.

Woof,
Crafty
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on March 10, 2004, 12:44:51 PM
I think I've seen this same post in another forum, actually.  Let me try to find it, and give you the link if I can get it today.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 10, 2004, 05:58:30 AM
Woof All:

IIRC the Yamboa book was first published in 1951.  A bone from the Eskrima Digest to gnaw on for those so inclined:

woof,
Crafty Dog
===========

The actual title of the book in question is Mga
Karunungan sa Larong Arnis ni Placido Yambao at
isinaayos ni Buenaventura Mirafuente (The Knowledge of
the Game(?)/Sport(?) of Arnis by Placido Yambao and
edited by Buenaventura Mirafuente).

You might find it interesting to note that the section
on the history of arnis in Yambao's book was actually
written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, his editor
(Maikling kasaysayan ng arnis ni Buenaventura
Mirafuente/Short history of arnis by Buenaventura
Mirafuente, pp 9-14). Mirafuente (p. 10) states that
kali was the original name of arnis at the time the
Spaniards came, but due to the inevitable changes
brought about by time and events, it became known by
various names in different areas of the Philippines,
such as pananandata in Tagalog, pagkalikali in the
Cagayan valley especially in the Ibanag-speaking
areas, kalirongan in Pangasinan, kaliradman in Bisaya
and pangaradman in Ilonggo, and didya in Ilokano,
which became also known as kabaroan according to Fr.
Gregorio Aglipay.

Mirafuente adds further (p. 14)in his endnotes to this
chapter, a short discussion on the similarity of the
terms kali and kalis, the latter described as the
sword used in kali.

Mind you, the above is just a short and rough
translation/paraphrase of the original Tagalog text...
Anyway, it appears that kali used in this sense simply
refers to the martial art encountered by the Spaniards
at the time of their arrival.

Respectfully,

Bot

P.S. I put game/sport as alternative translations of
the word "laro." "Laro" literally means to play, but
can also mean a game or a sport. In some contexts, it
also means contests or combat.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 10, 2004, 10:40:37 AM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Woof All:

IIRC the Yamboa book was first published in 1951.  A bone from the Eskrima Digest to gnaw on for those so inclined:

woof,
Crafty Dog
===========

The actual title of the book in question is Mga
Karunungan sa Larong Arnis ni Placido Yambao at
isinaayos ni Buenaventura Mirafuente (The Knowledge of
the Game(?)/Sport(?) of Arnis by Placido Yambao and
edited by Buenaventura Mirafuente).

You might find it interesting to note that the section
on the history of arnis in Yambao's book was actually
written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, his editor
(Maikling kasaysayan ng arnis ni Buenaventura
Mirafuente/Short history of arnis by Buenaventura
Mirafuente, pp 9-14). Mirafuente (p. 10) states that
kali was the original name of arnis at the time the
Spaniards came, but due to the inevitable changes
brought about by time and events, it became known by
various names in different areas of the Philippines,
such as pananandata in Tagalog, pagkalikali in the
Cagayan valley especially in the Ibanag-speaking
areas, kalirongan in Pangasinan, kaliradman in Bisaya
and pangaradman in Ilonggo, and didya in Ilokano,
which became also known as kabaroan according to Fr.
Gregorio Aglipay.

Mirafuente adds further (p. 14)in his endnotes to this
chapter, a short discussion on the similarity of the
terms kali and kalis, the latter described as the
sword used in kali.

Mind you, the above is just a short and rough
translation/paraphrase of the original Tagalog text...
Anyway, it appears that kali used in this sense simply
refers to the martial art encountered by the Spaniards
at the time of their arrival.

Respectfully,

Bot

P.S. I put game/sport as alternative translations of
the word "laro." "Laro" literally means to play, but
can also mean a game or a sport. In some contexts, it
also means contests or combat.


true, Kali was mentioned in Placido Yambao's book. But I am not convinced.

I am looking for a forum post that I read earlier about this matter. Apparently, Mirafuente's basis for mentioning Kali came from an article written for a Californian newsletter that was published in the US. So if you trace the roots of the term "Kali" it seems that it was still an idea imported from the US and did not have any local (Philippine) basis
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 11, 2004, 12:18:42 PM
Yo woof:

Given the empahsis on precise history by the anti-Kali crowd, a citiation would be appropriate.

Even if your memory AND source on this are accurate,  there were (and are) an awful lot of Filipinos in the US, especially CA where to this day they are the second largest minority (Mexican is first, black is third).  Is there a (conspiracy?) theory as to why pre-1951 Filipinos in the US would be making this up?  

yip,
Crafty
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 11, 2004, 12:32:54 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Yo woof:

  Is there a (conspiracy?) theory as to why pre-1951 Filipinos in the US would be making this up?  

yip,
Crafty


yes, playing with history to market the art to suite American tastes.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 11, 2004, 01:40:59 PM
So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  :wink:
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 11, 2004, 04:40:22 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  :wink:


C'mon crafty, I am applying a bit of skepticism.

These people were martial artists and not historians. Their flaw was not doing their research well enough because they just quoted something that came out of a Filipino community newsletter in the US.

skepticism, yes. Because Filipinos love almost everything that comes from America, specially in 1951 which was post WWII when American GI's with Douglas McArthur were seen as heroes ( which is quite ironic since the last time that the Americans came before WWII they were more of oppressors than liberators since they had a "scorched earth" policy against the Filipinos in the Philippine- American War where some historians estimate that 300,000 to 600,000 Filipinos perished)

yes, they love anything American, so anything that comes from America can be easily accepted, Philippine law is patterned after American law, Filipinos love eating hamburgers, play basketball, and use English as the official business language. Hence, it would have been easier for Yambao and Mirafuente to easily quote that.

-- to be continued
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 11, 2004, 05:07:11 PM
Woof S:

I'm not sure my point is communicating well, so before your continuation please allow me to flesh it out a bit.

If FMA were not being taught publicly in the US until the late 1960s, what sense does it make to say that a newsletter published in the late 40s-early 50s that Filipino agricultural workers was making up a term to market to American tastes that were not to come into existence for 20 years or more?  (Still awaiting the citation on this claim of this being the source for the Filipino book passage in question BTW)

Allow me to offer an alternative interpretation for your consideration:
Amongst the tremendous cross-sections of the Philippines to be found in Stockton were men (some born in the 18th century) who did use the term Kali-- a term of their youth which may have died out subsequent to their emmigration which they brought with them.  

for your consideration,
C.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 11, 2004, 05:10:47 PM
Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  :wink:


C'mon crafty, I am applying a bit of skepticism.

These people were martial artists and not historians. Their flaw was not doing their research well enough because they just quoted something that came out of a Filipino community newsletter in the US.

skepticism, yes. Because Filipinos love almost everything that comes from America, specially in 1951 which was post WWII when American GI's with Douglas McArthur were seen as heroes ( which is quite ironic since the last time that the Americans came before WWII they were more of oppressors than liberators since they had a "scorched earth" policy against the Filipinos in the Philippine- American War where some historians estimate that 300,000 to 600,000 Filipinos perished)

yes, they love anything American, so anything that comes from America can be easily accepted, Philippine law is patterned after American law, Filipinos love eating hamburgers, play basketball, and use English as the official business language. Hence, it would have been easier for Yambao and Mirafuente to easily quote that.

-- to be continued


as regards to not yet being taught to the public:

how sure can you be about that? maybe not commercially, how about privately? -- but even up to now I know some masters who take American students and teach underground. I have heard of some masters even up to now talk about myths and legends or probably even make up some just to keep their underground American students interested.

next, As what I have mentioned Mirafuente and Yambao were not historians, and the part where they mentioned "Kali" was just a very short citation, that' probably the reason why they did not even bother much to research further on the definitions since it was a very small, if not significant part of the whole book. Their priority was to show techniques and not to discuss history.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on April 11, 2004, 05:13:10 PM
Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  :wink:


C'mon crafty, I am applying a bit of skepticism.

These people were martial artists and not historians. Their flaw was not doing their research well enough because they just quoted something that came out of a Filipino community newsletter in the US.


sorry about the flow of ideas. this computer is killing me.

yes, I will try to find out the document as promised.
skepticism, yes. Because Filipinos love almost everything that comes from America, specially in 1951 which was post WWII when American GI's with Douglas McArthur were seen as heroes ( which is quite ironic since the last time that the Americans came before WWII they were more of oppressors than liberators since they had a "scorched earth" policy against the Filipinos in the Philippine- American War where some historians estimate that 300,000 to 600,000 Filipinos perished)

yes, they love anything American, so anything that comes from America can be easily accepted, Philippine law is patterned after American law, Filipinos love eating hamburgers, play basketball, and use English as the official business language. Hence, it would have been easier for Yambao and Mirafuente to easily quote that.

-- to be continued


as regards to not yet being taught to the public:

how sure can you be about that? maybe not commercially, how about privately? -- but even up to now I know some masters who take American students and teach underground. I have heard of some masters even up to now talk about myths and legends or probably even make up some just to keep their underground American students interested.

next, As what I have mentioned Mirafuente and Yambao were not historians, and the part where they mentioned "Kali" was just a very short citation, that' probably the reason why they did not even bother much to research further on the definitions since it was a very small, if not significant part of the whole book. Their priority was to show techniques and not to discuss history.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 11, 2004, 05:14:33 PM
Quote from: Anonymous
Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
So far pre-1951 that it had somehow already magically made its way back to the Philippines to appear in this book as history in 1951?  The art was not even being taught in public!  (IIRC correctly GM Angel Cabales was the first to open a school circa 1964)

C'mon now, does this ring plausible to you?  Lets apply a bit of skepticism  :wink:


C'mon crafty, I am applying a bit of skepticism.

These people were martial artists and not historians. Their flaw was not doing their research well enough because they just quoted something that came out of a Filipino community newsletter in the US.


sorry about the flow of ideas. this computer is killing me.

yes, I will try to find out the document as promised.
skepticism, yes. Because Filipinos love almost everything that comes from America, specially in 1951 which was post WWII when American GI's with Douglas McArthur were seen as heroes ( which is quite ironic since the last time that the Americans came before WWII they were more of oppressors than liberators since they had a "scorched earth" policy against the Filipinos in the Philippine- American War where some historians estimate that 300,000 to 600,000 Filipinos perished)

yes, they love anything American, so anything that comes from America can be easily accepted, Philippine law is patterned after American law, Filipinos love eating hamburgers, play basketball, and use English as the official business language. Hence, it would have been easier for Yambao and Mirafuente to easily quote that.

-- to be continued


as regards to not yet being taught to the public:

how sure can you be about that? maybe not commercially, how about privately? -- but even up to now I know some masters who take American students and teach underground. I have heard of some masters even up to now talk about myths and legends or probably even make up some just to keep their underground American students interested.

next, As what I have mentioned Mirafuente and Yambao were not historians, and the part where they mentioned "Kali" was just a very short citation, that' probably the reason why they did not even bother much to research further on the definitions since it was a very small, if not significant part of the whole book. Their priority was to show techniques and not to discuss history.


sorry, have problems with this computer.

yes, will try to find out documents as proof.

 :wink:
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Sun Helmet on April 11, 2004, 10:55:57 PM
Crafty makes a good point... there's a nearly a decade long gap of written records concerning the next appearance of FMAs in the States. If there were American (caucasian) private students in 1951, they would be known or be discovered- at least an interest of how they developed would be found.

With written proof of the origin of the quote, it would at least shed some light on the matter. Is this gentleman still alive?

--Rafael--
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Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: filipino_boxers on April 12, 2004, 12:23:14 PM
This is a very interesting subject...

I just got done reading "Secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo", about Antonio Ilustrisimo from Bantayan Island, Cebu, there's a very interesting claim they make in the book that might be related to Kali.  

Antonio Ilustrisimo was one of the uncles of Floro Villabrile who taught him Eskrima in the 1920s.  It seems that Antonio Ilustrisimo has never heard of this term Kali, and goes on to say that Villabrile never really had any other teachers but his family.  There was no "blind princess of Samar".

The Villabrile/Largusa school was one of the first ones here in the US to promote Kali as the original martial art of the Filipinos (please, correct me if i'm wrong here).  Maybe, this school introduced Kali to the rest of California, from Hawaii.  Dan Inosanto was introduced to this term, and so were the Stockton masters, who maybe just "went along" with it (since most of them were from Cebu or their art originated from Cebu, and no one uses Kali in Cebu).

Hence Kali is more popular in the US, while Filipino connection to this word is really difficult to prove.  Just a theory....

(of course, this whole theory will fall apart if there were others anyone can trace, who used Kali as an original term for their art).

p.s.-- oh yeah, Sun Helmet, i finally got my copies of the old pinoy boxers footage and documentary.  great historical footage and action shots.  you can really see the difference in footwork.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 12, 2004, 01:19:55 PM
Woof All:

Tuhon Rafael wrote:

"Crafty makes a good point... there's a nearly a decade long gap of written records concerning the next appearance of FMAs in the States. If there were American (caucasian) private students in 1951, they would be known or be discovered- at least an interest of how they developed would be found.

With written proof of the origin of the quote, it would at least shed some light on the matter. Is this gentleman still alive?"

END

If we figure that for the info to have made it to the Philippines and be published there in 1951, it seems probable to me that the date of  (rumored) publication of the US newsletter was probably in the 1940s.   What year do we use as the benchmark for the FMA going public in the US (would this be GM Angel Cabales?)  Thus we are looking at a probable 15-20 years as best as I can figure-- but please feel free to educate me better.

Also, I confess to being confused by the use of the word "quote" here.  To what does it refer?

yip,
Crafty
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 12, 2004, 03:39:15 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Woof All:

Tuhon Rafael wrote:

"Crafty makes a good point... there's a nearly a decade long gap of written records concerning the next appearance of FMAs in the States. If there were American (caucasian) private students in 1951, they would be known or be discovered- at least an interest of how they developed would be found.

With written proof of the origin of the quote, it would at least shed some light on the matter. Is this gentleman still alive?"

END

If we figure that for the info to have made it to the Philippines and be published there in 1951, it seems probable to me that the date of  (rumored) publication of the US newsletter was probably in the 1940s.   What year do we use as the benchmark for the FMA going public in the US (would this be GM Angel Cabales?)  Thus we are looking at a probable 15-20 years as best as I can figure-- but please feel free to educate me better.

Also, I confess to being confused by the use of the word "quote" here.  To what does it refer?

yip,
Crafty


but doesnt Cabales refer to his art as Serrada Escrima?

Which Stockton schools/masters refer to their arts as Kali?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: filipino_boxers on April 12, 2004, 07:56:35 PM
Angel Cabales credits his Serrada Eskrima to Feliz? Dizon, from Cebu.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 12, 2004, 08:12:26 PM
I think the relevance of GM Cabales here is not the name of his system but rather that he is considered to be the first to "go public" with the Art in the US (sometime in the 1960s--please correct me if I am wrong) and as such the date of his going public disputes, IMHO, the assertion that the mention of Kali in Yojimbo's book in 1951 in the Philippines was part of some "conspiracy" to market and condescend to caucasion Americans since we were not to know of the Art for some 15-20 years yet.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 12, 2004, 10:03:36 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
I think the relevance of GM Cabales here is not the name of his system but rather that he is considered to be the first to "go public" with the Art in the US (sometime in the 1960s--please correct me if I am wrong) and as such the date of his going public disputes, IMHO, the assertion that the mention of Kali in Yojimbo's book in 1951 in the Philippines was part of some "conspiracy" to market and condescend to caucasion Americans since we were not to know of the Art for some 15-20 years yet.


sure, but to change the topic for a while. I'm just curious since Stockton has always been mentioned.

can someone please enumerate the different names that each school/master calls his own style -- eskrima or kali?

I can only find Ben Largusa as referring to Kali. Please enlighten me .
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 12, 2004, 10:11:21 PM
Quote from: skeptic
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
I think the relevance of GM Cabales here is not the name of his system but rather that he is considered to be the first to "go public" with the Art in the US (sometime in the 1960s--please correct me if I am wrong) and as such the date of his going public disputes, IMHO, the assertion that the mention of Kali in Yojimbo's book in 1951 in the Philippines was part of some "conspiracy" to market and condescend to caucasion Americans since we were not to know of the Art for some 15-20 years yet.


sure, but to change the topic for a while. I'm just curious since Stockton has always been mentioned.

can someone please enumerate the different names that each school/master calls his own style -- eskrima or kali?

I can only find Ben Largusa as referring to Kali. Please enlighten me .


Leo Giron from Northern Philippines refers to it as Arnis/Esrkima
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2004, 11:31:02 PM
question:  

a person who practices escrima is an escrimador.

arnis is an arnisador.

what is the kali practioner called? i've read kalista and/or kaliman, but this is from pt kali.  was wondering if this is accurate?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 13, 2004, 02:28:09 AM
If I have it correctly, Maong Juan LaCoste used "Kali".


BTW, concerning Yambao http://www.bakbakan.com/ca-book.htm
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: filipino_boxers on April 13, 2004, 09:41:22 AM
Wasn't manong Juan LaCoste from Cebu?  If he was from Cebu and a Bisaya, this would be very interesting.  I'd also would want to know what part of Cebu he's from.  (other Cebuanos--contemporaries of LaCoste--are Antonio and Regino Ilustrisimo from northern Cebu, Teodoro Saavedra, and Islao Romo from central cebu, the Canetes from southern cebu, and Caballero of De Campo 1-2-3 in western cebu.  All use Eskrima, by the way, and have no knowledge of the term Kali).

Which other masters from stockton or california used Kali? and more importantly, which groups use Kali and how did they come to use this name?  So far, we only have as a definite, the Villabrille/Largusa Kali school.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on April 13, 2004, 09:52:23 AM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
If I have it correctly, Maong Juan LaCoste used "Kali".


BTW, concerning Yambao http://www.bakbakan.com/ca-book.htm


perfect! the book comes out next month.  i'd like to see what the bakbakan/kalis ilustrisimo crowd say about yambao, since they are the more avid, intellectual proponents of anti-Kali in FMA to date.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 13, 2004, 11:27:49 AM
Guro Inosanto has often spoken of Manong LaCoste being unusually well-travelled (including being a ferry captain IIRC) and diverse in his training.  Guro I. has specifically mentioned that he trained with muslims in the south and that this was very unusual.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 13, 2004, 01:56:04 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Guro Inosanto has often spoken of Manong LaCoste being unusually well-travelled (including being a ferry captain IIRC) and diverse in his training.  Guro I. has specifically mentioned that he trained with muslims in the south and that this was very unusual.


The late Antonio Ilustrisimo who is related to some of the Stockton masters, who is a Cebuano himself (where alot of the Stockton group are from), also unusually travelled being a seaman himself (in fact he was also set for a blade match in Indonesia while his boat was docked), who also stayed in Tondo in Manila in the Port Area who had some of the Stockton people as his contemporaries, apparently never encountered the word "Kali" anywhere in his extensive travels.

If you have mentioned Manong LaCoste's training with the southern Muslims very unusual, then Antonio Ilustrisimo has further leverage by living as a Muslim, and being trained as a Muslim by Muslims (he was adopted by a Muslim when he got lost rowing his banca (boat) and ended up in Mindanao). Yet why has he never heard of the word "Kali"?

Are you implying that Kali is a southern Muslim term? Try going to the Southern most tip of Mindanao (Jolo where the Sultanate of Sulu is based and where Muslim culture is strongly preserved) and you will hear Kuntao , perhaps rarely Silat, but never will you hear "Kali".
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: filipino_boxers on April 13, 2004, 04:34:09 PM
Roland Dantes (a student of Presas and Sulite) once said that there were Muslims in Mindanao who used Kali, but never really said where.  But, there are more people from Mindanao who say they have never heard of Kali.

So, who else uses the term Kali, and have used it as the original name of their art?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: SunHelmet on April 14, 2004, 05:59:50 AM
<<Also, I confess to being confused by the use of the word "quote" here. To what does it refer? >>

The Yambao book description of 'kali'... the gentleman I was refering to was the person who wrote that text which I believe was not Yambao but a contemporary.

Filipion Boxer- glad you ghot hold of the footage . I thought the rhythmic and body framing were also very different.

--Rafael--
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Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 14, 2004, 04:31:25 PM
Quote from: SunHelmet
<<Also, I confess to being confused by the use of the word "quote" here. To what does it refer? >>

The Yambao book description of 'kali'... the gentleman I was refering to was the person who wrote that text which I believe was not Yambao but a contemporary.

Filipion Boxer- glad you ghot hold of the footage . I thought the rhythmic and body framing were also very different.

--Rafael--
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---------


You must be referring to the editor - Mirafuente
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 15, 2004, 08:04:24 AM
There are a few rejoinders I still would like to make viz the responses to my prior post, but have not had time.  So until then this, from Ray Terry's Eskrima Digest:
==============

OK, as promised....

Ang Kali na Dinatnan ng mga Kastila ay Hindi pa Arnis
ang Tawag nuong 1610

(The Kali that the Spaniards encountered was not yet
called Arnis in 1610)

Noong unang panahon ang larong ito'y kilala saa tawag
na "kali" ng ating mga ninuno, nguni't sa hindi
maiwasang pagbabago ng panahon at pangyayari ay
pinamagatan nila ng "Panandata" sa Tagalog,
"Pagkalikali" sa kapatagan ng Kagayan ng mga Ibanag,
"Kalirongan" sa Pangasinan, "Kaliradman" sa Bisaya at
"Pagaradman" sa Ilongo nuong 1860, at "Didya" sa
Ilokos at muling naging "Kabaroan," ayon kay Rev. Fr.
Gregorio Aglipay na bantog din sa arnis nuong 1872.

Below is the best translation I can make. Maybe my
kababayan here can help me correct it? Gat Puno? Leo?
Jay? Jose? Manong Jorge? Ed? Anyone?.....

In early times, this game/sport/contest (?) was known
by the term "kali" by our ancestors, but because of
the inevitable changes over time and events, this
became known as "Panandata" in the Tagalog regions,
"Pagkalikali" in the plains of Cagayan especially
among the Ibanags, "Kalirongan" in Pangasinan,
"Kaliradman" in Bisaya and "Pagaradman" in Ilonggo in
1860, and "Didya" in Ilokos, which again became
"Kabaroan" according to Rev. Fr. Gregorio Aglipay who
was also expert in arnis, in 1872.

Mirafuente in Yambao 1957 (10)

Mirafuente does not give any bibliographic references
at the end of his chapter. However, he does give the
definitions of the terms at the end, written in a
dictionary format, which may mean that he had access
to a dictionary or laid out the format that way. There
is a literary reference here, a quote from "Florante
at Laura" (Florante and Laura) an long poem written in
the epic form (published as a book)from the 19th
century by Francisco Balagtas. The quote includes two
terms, buno (wrestling) and arnis. Other than that,
and apart from a reference to the decree by Don Simon
de Anda y Salazar prohibiting the carrying of weapons,
no other references are given. Which is a pity, since
I would also loved to have looked them up myself.

The way this section in this chapter is written, there
appears to be no other significance to the term kali
than its being the term used to refer to the martial
arts of the time.

Regards,

Bot
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: filipino_boxers on April 15, 2004, 12:19:05 PM
so, skeptic's premise is that Mirafuerte obtained the word Kali from the US, correct?

questions:  did Mirafuerte ever study in Hawaii or California?  in the 1950s, was he ever in contact with Villabrille or Largusa? (Crafty: Excuse the buttinsky please, but in that the book was published in 1951, it would be the 1940s or the year 1950-- yes?)

Sun Helmet: it's funny you talked about rhythm, cuz while watching some of the footages, i couldn't help but think that the pinoy boxers move more like modern day boxers, compared to their opponents who moved more like they were in the 1930s (hope that makes sense, kinda like watching basketball in the 60s and now, totally different movements).  know of any "Flash" elorde footage floating around?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 15, 2004, 03:26:06 PM
Quote from: filipino_boxers
so, skeptic's premise is that Mirafuerte obtained the word Kali from the US, correct?

questions:  did Mirafuerte ever study in Hawaii or California?  in the 1950s, was he ever in contact with Villabrille or Largusa? (Crafty: Excuse the buttinsky please, but in that the book was published in 1951, it would be the 1940s or the year 1950-- yes?)

Sun Helmet: it's funny you talked about rhythm, cuz while watching some of the footages, i couldn't help but think that the pinoy boxers move more like modern day boxers, compared to their opponents who moved more like they were in the 1930s (hope that makes sense, kinda like watching basketball in the 60s and now, totally different movements).  know of any "Flash" elorde footage floating around?



hey boxer.

I'm do not know if Mirafuente ever went to Hawaii or the US. I just remember reading somewhere before that he somehow used a Filipino Community newsletter published in the US as his reference.

but can anyone tell me which Stockton masters and schools refer to their art as Kali? Crafty?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 15, 2004, 05:16:40 PM
Woof S:

S. wrote:

"I'm do not know if Mirafuente ever went to Hawaii or the US. I just remember reading somewhere before that he somehow used a Filipino Community newsletter published in the US as his reference."

God, that's even more slender a historical basis than we Kali people are accused of using!  :lol:  

"but can anyone tell me which Stockton masters and schools refer to their art as Kali? Crafty?"

I coulda swore that this was covered in the last couple of pages , , ,  :wink:  

Anyway, another one from the Eskrima Digest in reponse to a comment of mine:

BEGIN:

2. Transcript from either Laban Laro or into the
Vortex by P.G. Sulite. I do not have access to my
video tapes, they are packed for moving. I am relying
on my notes for this so if the exact wording is not
correct please excuse. I personally believe it to be
very close as I am generally pretty thorough with my
notes. Begin!


"Hi I am PG Edgar Sulite. founder of Lameco Escrima
Intl. Lameco means Largo, Medio, Corto. Or Long Range,
Medium Range and Close range. It is a combination of
the various styles which I have studied in the
Phillipines from the different Grandmasters.

********BTW, don't be confused with Kali, Arnis or
Escrima because it means the same. We have more than
87 languages in the country. In the Phillipines and
the most popular language that we call in ourFilipino
Martial Arts in mindinao is called Kali. In Visayas it
is called Escrima. In uhhh, uhhh Luzon it is called
Arnis but it means the same so don't be confused with
it's name. Others call it Pagkalikali, others call it
Pananandata. It depends on the provinces, the dialect
that these people are using. Now this is like my name.
I am Edgar Sulite. My middle name is (missed it),
Edgar(xxxx)Sulite. So I have three names, in one
personality, so it means the same. Kali, Arnis or
Escrima. Other people will say " Oh I am practcing in
Kali" and other people will say "I am only practicing
Escrima." No don't be confusedabout it cause it all
means the same. Now we will start with the
basics....******
End of transcript.
I further find it interesting that the Art in question
is Lameco Escrima, yet throughout the tape PG,
constantly uses the term Kali to indicate what he does
and as reference to indicate subject.

Phil Hurcum

END

WHAT SAY YOU ALL?

Additionally, while in Germany at Dieter K and Alfred P's big shindig last month, I sat next to one of the Filipinos who was there to teach he said he was a Cebuano living in Mindanoa and that the term Kali was used.  He then proceded to give me a patch of his system and it used Kali.  Forgive me please for not remembering his name or system off the top of my head, but at the moment my wife and I are quite busy getting ready for a 10 day trip to backwater Peru with our two young children to visit their grandmother where she does good works and I don't have the time to go look for the patch or track down which instructor it was.

Additionally, one of the first things that Roland Dantes said to me upon our meeting was about how the term was legit-- thus confirming an email I had received by someone unknown to me purporting be his student some time ago to that effect.

ATTENTION:  I SEEK TO PERSUADE NO ONE.  I CLAIM NO HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE.  There are many who do and who claim historical certainty that the term Kali, which is part of my vocabulary, is a fraud perpetrated by certain indivuduals and certain groups which was propagated by the gullible.  For those sincerely interested in exploring for the truth, as versus being right about conclusions previously made, I have proffered the Mirafuente intro here.  

It seems logical to me to say that the 1951 Mirafuente intro raises a legitimate question to the fraud hypothesis.     Against Mirafuentes it so far all we have HERE SO FAR is a vague recolllection that even if true, IMHO, seems to challenge plausibility a bit.  

For those sincerely interested in exploring for the truth we also have here PG Sulite's words.  If you knew him, or know of him and where we he came from and who he was, you will give these words fair weight.

As for the additional info, give it what weight you will.  It matters not to me.

Woof,
Crafty Dog
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: filipino_boxers on April 16, 2004, 08:37:50 AM
Quote from: filipino_boxers

questions:  did Mirafuerte ever study in Hawaii or California?  in the 1950s, was he ever in contact with Villabrille or Largusa? (Crafty: Excuse the buttinsky please, but in that the book was published in 1951, it would be the 1940s or the year 1950-- yes?)


hi, crafty... the date on top, i believe your post, has 1957 next to yambao's name. so, i thought this book was published in 1957...

skeptic: so, far we only have the Villabrille/Largusa school which uses Kali, and possibly LaCoste, as crafty indicated.  but, then again there are newer groups that developed like Sayoc Kali, Atienza Kali, etc that have adopted Kali also.  but, i think we should just concentrate to the folks who used Kali around the 40s and 50s. so, Villabrille/Largusa is what we have so far.

as for Edgar Sulite...  didn't he credit only two Masters for his art? namely, Caballero (from Cebu) and Ilustrisimo (from Cebu)? both do not and have never used Kali.

the question would be: where and when did Sulite come to use Kali? if, indeed, in Mindanao, where in Mindanao and which group or groups in particular?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on April 16, 2004, 08:46:40 AM
"I just remember reading somewhere before that he somehow used a Filipino Community newsletter published in the US as his reference."

If you can find evidence of this, then your case will be stronger.  Otherwise, it is just heresay. If you cannot find it, then you need to argue from a different angle to make your case.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 16, 2004, 09:23:41 AM
All:

"possibly LaCoste, as crafty indicated. but, then again there are newer groups that developed like Sayoc Kali, Atienza Kali, etc that have adopted Kali also. but, i think we should just concentrate to the folks who used Kali around the 40s and 50s. so, Villabrille/Largusa is what we have so far."

Actually I think I should say LaCoste with certainty.

"as for Edgar Sulite... didn't he credit only two Masters for his art? namely, Caballero (from Cebu) and Ilustrisimo (from Cebu)? both do not and have never used Kali.  the question would be: where and when did Sulite come to use Kali? if, indeed, in Mindanao, where in Mindanao and which group or groups in particular?"

The point here is not that Sulite used Kali for Lameco-- he didn't-- but that he was an unusually broadly trained and travelled man in FMA throughout the RP, as evinced by his "Masters of Arnis, Kali & Eskrima" and that what he said as described nearby above, should be seen in that light.  For him the term Kali was a legitimate indigenous term.  Historians make of it what you will.

C.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on April 16, 2004, 09:49:59 AM
"Additionally, while in Germany, I sat next to one of the Filipinos who was there to teach he said he was a Cebuano living in Mindanao and that the term Kali was used. He then proceded to give me a patch of his system and it used Kali. "

Very interested to know who this person is, Crafty and his explanation for Kali.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 16, 2004, 10:04:54 AM
Quote from: Anonymous
"Additionally, while in Germany, I sat next to one of the Filipinos who was there to teach he said he was a Cebuano living in Mindanao and that the term Kali was used. He then proceded to give me a patch of his system and it used Kali. "

Very interested to know who this person is, Crafty and his explanation for Kali.


I'm pretty sure that his school had no "Kali" lineage (his masters before him probably called it Eskrima or Arnis) and named his own school with reference to Kali.

I personally have friends who are Cebuanos who moved to Manila, read Inosanto's book, interacted with "Kali" groups during WEKAF activities, and hence adopted the Kali name.

I also know of someone who is from Mindanao, got educated in Manila, learned Lightning Scientific from the late founder Master Lema and the late Master ybanez,  but is now back in Mindanao and has a popular school named something like 'Mandirigmang Kali".

Things are even getting worse right now as Filipinos being "re-educated" by American Kali websites since more and more Filipinos are getting connected to the internet.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on April 16, 2004, 05:43:37 PM
That's an assumption on your part skeptic.  The best approach to this is to wait for Crafty to provide more information about this Cebuano teaching Kali and his connection to this word, whether legitimate or just another adoption of Kali because of it's exotic and indigenous sounding.

Maybe he did learn of Kali in Mindanao, but where in Mindanao would be the million dollar question.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: skeptic on April 16, 2004, 06:08:29 PM
Quote from: Anonymous
That's an assumption on your part skeptic.  The best approach to this is to wait for Crafty to provide more information about this Cebuano teaching Kali and his connection to this word, whether legitimate or just another adoption of Kali because of it's exotic and indigenous sounding.

Maybe he did learn of Kali in Mindanao, but where in Mindanao would be the million dollar question.


Hey Guest,

Where are you from?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2004, 08:22:42 PM
I'm from California, skeptic? and Yourself?
Title: boxers
Post by: SunHelmet on April 17, 2004, 11:20:40 PM
"(hope that makes sense, kinda like watching basketball in the 60s and now, totally different movements). know of any "Flash" elorde footage floating around?"

Makes perfect sense to me. I don't know of any Elorde footage offhand but there has got to be some around since his era was after these gents and he was arguably the most popular boxer to come out of the Philippines.

--Rafael--
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---------
------------
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Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 02, 2004, 07:08:10 AM
Woof All you Historians:

Spotted this on the ED by Leo Salinel:

"I agree with Professor Bot Jocano. Placido Yambao
didn't invent the word in 1957; for sure he got it
somewhere. The problem is, we don't know where he got
that.

Another historical puzzle is the fact that the late GM
Floro Villabrille and GM Benny Largusa were the first
Americanized Pinoys to use "kali" as a term to refer
to their arnis/eskrima. And yet I assume it isn't
likely or possible even for those guys to read Placido
Yambao's book, which was published by the University
of the Philippines Press in 1957 as an academic sort
of book (in 1957, GM Villabrille had been in the USA
for more than 20 years. And I doubt if GM Largusa, who
was born in Hawaii, speaks Tagalog). So the question
remains:  WHERE DID THEY GET THE WORD kali?

I have a novel theory that the answer to this riddle
lies in the "Pulahan" cultist groups. GM Villabrille
trained with the Pulahans, and GM Braulio Pedoy
learned his arnis from Faustino Ablin, a Pulahan
chieftain, from whom he got the story of their art of
Derobio being one of "those pre-colonial fighting
styles that went underground when the Spaniards
outlawed the use of blades" (quoting from the Derobio
website). Could there be a Pulahan connection to all this?"

Any merit to this?

BTW, I thought the date of publication was 1951, not 1957?

yip,
Crafty
Title: Re: more kali, folks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2004, 09:01:31 AM
Quote from: dexter


"About the kali kalihan festival in salvador Benedicto you said that they just made it up when they read Inosanto's book, my god where in the hell did you get that?"

Maybe, my source was ill informed. Forgive me for writing that, but the fact that this word still originated in the US still holds true.




"did you know that the town of Salvador Benedicto was still un accessible in the 1970's? and the people who live there are called the pulahan tribes did you know that? bet you did not now you know better put that in your research notebook..."

the Pulahanes are not tribes in the Philippines Mr. Gaje. this is an Anthropologic fact. The history of the Pulahanes are found in Mr. Ileto's "Pasyon" and Mr. Mojares' "War Against the Americans", to name a few books. They were first documented in Southern Luzon, then in Samar, Leyte, Bohol, Negros, and Cebu in the 1900s and sometime prior. they were so named for the red they wore. They were a millenarian religious group which spread during the first years of the American occupation.




"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"

There is the connection I was looking for!!! So, basically it has you after having lived in America, having political connections, knowing your people will receive any American information rather easily, since colonial mentality (as Mr. Constantino has eloquently written about) is very rampant among Filipinos. Of course, when you offered the word Kali they accepted.





"Now that is the problem you base your facts from other peoples research, I think you misunderstood what I mean the pulahan tribe that I was talking about was the pulahan that PAPA ISIO headed in the town of Isio south of negros island. they were originaly called karul-an they were separated from the lowlanders, they had their own form of government and set of beliefs and customs and traditions, when the spanish came and tried to envade them they declared themselves independent so the the spanish regime masaccred the tribe but few survived and migrated to other places , but brought with them their own set of beleifs and customs and traditions later on as time passed by, they integrated with the pulahan that you are talking about and so they were known in time as the pulahan. And the remnants of these are still in Salvador Benedicto.The old name of Salvador Benedicto is Igmayaan."


Basing your initial research on other people?s research is what you?re suppose to do. This is the academic process. Now you are saying it?s not the pulahan (first, you said "it was the pulahan tribe), it was actually the karul-an tribe who were accepted among the pulahanes. The pulahan as you?ve explained used the word Halad, before you changed it yourself. Halad means offering in Bisaya. Records indicate that the municipality of Salvador Benedicto is composed of about 60% Bisaya (cebuano) and about 40% Ilongos (hiligaynon). This is from the census. My question now is, did the populace of Benedicto use the title Kali, or did they know about it, before you introduced it? Were they even remotely familiar with this term and its meaning?





"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"

"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? "



Yes it is political, if the populace didn?t use this title to begin with. This is what you call an Introduced Cultural concept. Very much the same with what christian missionaries do when they visit non-christian tribes and introduce foreign concepts, thus yanking them out of their already established cultural traditions. Also Kali is not a custom or a set of beliefs, unless you can explain how it is a custom or set of beliefs, besides just saying that "in Kali, we choose life not death, and health over sickness, etc etc.". This is not philosophy, this is just a collection of cliches. You will find the same "sayings" in Tai Chi, Chi Gong, or Karate. What you did was merely introduced the "kali is the ancient martial arts of the Philippines" concept, which was your own. They were not using Kali prior to you.






"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? To honor ones past glorious days? no amount of money could compensate for ones beliefs and principles, That is why Japan is lucky in terms of their cultural heritage, for they have preserved the Samurai and the bushido even though maybe just maybe none is left of this so called samurai warriors, or maybe because no Spaniard colonizer have set foot on their islands! to adulterate everything!"


But, making up a word "to honor ones past glorious days" is suspect since the rest of your art?s terminology is still very much related to other arts that use the title eskrima and arnis (like seguidas, florete, abecedario, baston, orasan, etc.)

================
Guest:

If we are going to be playing history, it will really help if people at the very least use forum names more precise than "guest" and if they identify the players in conversations they quote.

yip,
Crafty Dog
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2004, 09:06:10 AM
thanks, for posting that, Crafty...


so, if Villabrille trained with the "Pulahanes" in Samar, and Gaje's family also trained with the "Pulahanes" in the island of Negros, then we just might have a connection between Kali and the "Pulahanes".
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: pseduohistory on May 02, 2004, 12:18:57 PM
Quote from: Anonymous
thanks, for posting that, Crafty...


so, if Villabrille trained with the "Pulahanes" in Samar, and Gaje's family also trained with the "Pulahanes" in the island of Negros, then we just might have a connection between Kali and the "Pulahanes".


I would not jump into that conclusion. If you are going to use Leo Salinel as your source for the Villabrille - Pulahanes connection, then I would first check Leo Salinel's credentials as regards to being a historian/anthropologist/Filipino martial artist.

I even surprised why Crafty would cite Leo Salinel's words without even checking out who he is.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 02, 2004, 03:06:50 PM
Not sure why you would be surprised.  Please remember I make NO pretense at being a historian.   I am not vouching for Leo's post-- I simply saw it on the ED, it seemed interesting and so I posted it here-- where some people with some background often come to play-- simply for comments and observations.  Use it as you will.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: psedohistory on May 02, 2004, 03:59:03 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Not sure why you would be surprised.  Please remember I make NO pretense at being a historian.   I am not vouching for Leo's post-- I simply saw it on the ED, it seemed interesting and so I posted it here-- where some people with some background often come to play-- simply for comments and observations.  Use it as you will.


My apologies, my mistake, was speedreading and got the wrong impression you were endorsing.

woof,

psedodog
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2004, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: pseduohistory
Quote from: Anonymous
thanks, for posting that, Crafty...


so, if Villabrille trained with the "Pulahanes" in Samar, and Gaje's family also trained with the "Pulahanes" in the island of Negros, then we just might have a connection between Kali and the "Pulahanes".


I would not jump into that conclusion. If you are going to use Leo Salinel as your source for the Villabrille - Pulahanes connection, then I would first check Leo Salinel's credentials as regards to being a historian/anthropologist/Filipino martial artist.

I even surprised why Crafty would cite Leo Salinel's words without even checking out who he is.


so, who is he?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 04, 2004, 07:48:40 AM
Woof All:

Another post from the ED brought over here:

Crafty
===========

Hi Jay:
I must have missed something in the ED since your
subject title is Marc Scott's post of Mr. Romy
Macapagal's article. Is this the one that appeared in
the latest issue of Rapid Journal?

Since you quoted me below, I should add that in
Yambao's book, the chapter on the history of arnis was
actually written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, one of
Yambao's students. I am still curious as to where
Mirafuente may have gotten the term itself, since this
book is, as far as we know, the earliest publication
on arnis. An examination of the said chapter does not
show where he got this term from. No bibliographic
reference, no reference to interviews, not even a hint
if this was stock knowledge at the time. Just the
blanket statement itself.

Now, to add another perspective as far as comparative
linguistics is concerned, I recently talked to one of
my senior colleagues from the College of Arts and
Letters here in the University of the Philippines. He
is an Ibanag (an ethnolingustic group in the northern
Philippines) and also spoke Ilokano and Pangasinense,
and he told me that in their area, the old folk used
the term kali to refer to martial arts in general and
if I remember right, to fighting with weapons (note
disclaimer - if I got him right :-)). This seems in
line with the list of terms used by Mirafuente in his
chapter, and especially the list of terms used at the
end. BTW, those terms are also used in the paragraph I
posted earlier.

Sooooo, back to the question: Where did Mirafuente get
the term kali from? I don't know - but I would be
interested to hear from Ilokano, Ibanag and
Pangasinense speakers on this list if that is the term
used in their areas, and how commonly used is it. Also
related terms, as Mirafuente mentions a number of
them.

Your comment about the US Filipinos use of the term
kali interests me since it seems like a worthwhile
topic of interest to anyone doing research on oral
history in the US. Particularly on the lives of early
US Filipinos and especially the FMA masters who
immigrated there. Anyone wanting to take it up
academically?

Bot
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Ka' Roger Mahilum on May 26, 2004, 11:10:46 AM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
Woof All:

Another post from the ED brought over here:

Crafty
===========

Hi Jay:
I must have missed something in the ED since your
subject title is Marc Scott's post of Mr. Romy
Macapagal's article. Is this the one that appeared in
the latest issue of Rapid Journal?

Since you quoted me below, I should add that in
Yambao's book, the chapter on the history of arnis was
actually written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, one of
Yambao's students. I am still curious as to where
Mirafuente may have gotten the term itself, since this
book is, as far as we know, the earliest publication
on arnis. An examination of the said chapter does not
show where he got this term from. No bibliographic
reference, no reference to interviews, not even a hint
if this was stock knowledge at the time. Just the
blanket statement itself.

Now, to add another perspective as far as comparative
linguistics is concerned, I recently talked to one of
my senior colleagues from the College of Arts and
Letters here in the University of the Philippines. He
is an Ibanag (an ethnolingustic group in the northern
Philippines) and also spoke Ilokano and Pangasinense,
and he told me that in their area, the old folk used
the term kali to refer to martial arts in general and
if I remember right, to fighting with weapons (note
disclaimer - if I got him right :-)). This seems in
line with the list of terms used by Mirafuente in his
chapter, and especially the list of terms used at the
end. BTW, those terms are also used in the paragraph I
posted earlier.

Sooooo, back to the question: Where did Mirafuente get
the term kali from? I don't know - but I would be
interested to hear from Ilokano, Ibanag and
Pangasinense speakers on this list if that is the term
used in their areas, and how commonly used is it. Also
related terms, as Mirafuente mentions a number of
them.

Your comment about the US Filipinos use of the term
kali interests me since it seems like a worthwhile
topic of interest to anyone doing research on oral
history in the US. Particularly on the lives of early
US Filipinos and especially the FMA masters who
immigrated there. Anyone wanting to take it up
academically?

Bot


This is interesting read.  First it was thought that Kali was originated in Mindanao.  Now, the arrow of mystery points to the Northern parts of Luzon.  But, the individuals who have been credited with this term Kali are from Cebu, the Visayas (namely, the Tortals, Villabrille, and LaCoste).

1).  Is there Kali in Mindanao, whether Muslim or otherwise?

2).  Is Kali used among the Visayans also in the Philippines?

(also, I was told that in Mirafuerte's accounts of Filipino history, like the Magellan battle, some of this account was very inaccurate.  Is this true?)
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2004, 07:25:24 PM
Quote from: Romy Macapagal

About the term "Kali"

The word "kali" did not come about until about 20 years or so ago and seems to have been coined somewhere, sometime by Filipinos living in the USA. I have personally conducted a search for the word "kali" amongst old people of the major tribes and, except for "kalis" which means sword and "kali" in Ilocano, which means "a hole in the ground"; there is no other word or cognate of "kali".

Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years.

Tony Diego (the present head of the Ilustrisimo system) and I, after the research mentioned, decided that "Kalis" is the more appropriate word because it means "sword" and would then mean the "Sword of Ilustrisimo." The name has not been formally registered except on a website but we had decided on this even when Tatang was still active and alive.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2004, 10:05:41 PM
"The word "kali" did not come about until about 20 years or so ago and seems to have been coined somewhere, sometime by Filipinos living in the USA."

Given the Yambao book, how can this be?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: james1 on July 22, 2004, 05:01:25 PM
"Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years. "

I believe Yambao's (Mirafuerte's?) first published use of Kali was in the late 1950s.

But, is the above quote about Kali Ilustrisimo and Kalis Ilustrisimo true?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on July 22, 2004, 10:56:09 PM
Quote from: Leo Gaje Jr.
When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival...


Quote from: Romy Macapagal
Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book.


man, this is some serious propaganda campaign!!!
Title: kali
Post by: SUNHELMET on July 24, 2004, 05:29:59 AM
On the devil's advocate side of things....

Has there been much discussion on the first published account of the term 'arnis'? or 'eskrima'? Because I have never read about those terms outside of FMAs related publications... not in ANY history book about the Philippines. Not in any publication circa 1900 or before. No mention of it from Spanish sources or third party witnesses to the revolution.

So if we are looking for a term based on WRITTEN documentation, when does the consolidated fighting methods of Filipinos begin to have a term for it?

--Rafael--
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Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: tony on July 24, 2004, 02:08:49 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but Eskrima or Escrima are Filipino versions of the Spanish word Esgrima or Esgrime, correct?  This word is Spanish for Fencing, which the Filipinos eventually adopted.

Arnis is said to have come from Arnes, which means Harness in Spanish.  Arnes de Mano would mean Harness of the Hand, to describe the interwining nature of Filipino martial arts.  

Another school of thought, would be that Arnis de Mano, came from Armas de Mano, meaning Weapons of the Hand, as oppose to Armas de Fuego, which would mean Weapons by Fire, or FireArms.  Armas de Mano eventually evolved into Arnis de Mano, cut short into Arnis.

Both Eskrima and Arnis are recognized widely throughout the Philippines, even among those who do not practice it.
Title: Something to ponder
Post by: SUNHELMET on July 24, 2004, 03:25:39 PM
<<Correct me if I am wrong, but Eskrima or Escrima are Filipino versions of the Spanish word Esgrima or Esgrime, correct? This word is Spanish for Fencing, which the Filipinos eventually adopted. >>

Did Filipinos adopt the word or actual western duel/sport fencing methods? Filipino 'eskrima' and Spanish 'esgrima' are technically not taught the same or even use the same shape of weapons.

<<Arnis is said to have come from Arnes, which means Harness in Spanish. Arnes de Mano would mean Harness of the Hand, to describe the interwining nature of Filipino martial arts. >>

Yes, I've read this in FMA books but there's no record of this in any historical book. If we are to have the criteria for the word, 'kali'... we should also apply it on these two terms as well.

<<Another school of thought, would be that Arnis de Mano, came from Armas de Mano, meaning Weapons of the Hand, as oppose to Armas de Fuego, which would mean Weapons by Fire, or FireArms. Armas de Mano eventually evolved into Arnis de Mano, cut short into Arnis. >>

Again, this is just means Spanish terminology applied to a Filipino method of war... it does not have any roots beyond the FMA books. The Spanish did not have a term for the way the Filipinos fought... just "devilish, cunning, furious...etc."

<<Both Eskrima and Arnis are recognized widely throughout the Philippines, even among those who do not practice it.>>

Yes, as FMA terms... but again- there is no evidence that these terms existed in Spanish journals or any other records during the turn of the 1900's pertaining to Filipino's ways of war. For those so critical of the Fil-Ams use of the word 'kali' to describe the same methods without the Spanish influence.. beyond that, I'm still seeking to find what the arts were called during the Katipunan or even at the turn of the 1900's.

If there's no evidence of the words Arnis or Eskrima pertaining to Filipino martial methods prior to 1900's or even later... then this means that the word 'kali' is only pre dated by a few decades is it not?

This is leading me to the conclusion that FMAs and other Pinoys are just squabbling over words that are only a hundred years old at the most - and a few decades apart (if that) and were NEVER the words that our forefathers used to describe what they did... because they were too busy trying to survive to make an 'artform' with charts and drills etc.

Just like any of the practical sword masters from any culture.. the fighting came way before the manuals. If they were still fighting for their way of life with swords a hundred years ago... then they were not making schools or books about their martial art.

In my eyes, that's what makes the FMAs so practical because the art is still a living art.

--Rafael--
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Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2004, 04:35:52 PM
Quote
This is leading me to the conclusion that FMAs and other Pinoys are just squabbling over words that are only a hundred years old at the most - and a few decades apart (if that) and were NEVER the words that our forefathers used to describe what they did... because they were too busy trying to survive to make an 'artform' with charts and drills etc.


Now we're on the same page.  Personally, I think our forefathers used names like 'pangamut', 'sikaran', 'dumog', etc. (all other indigenous filipino terms).  We have indigenous terms, why not just utilize those words.

Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali are terms just introduced recently.  But, if you notice, only one is being presented as "Ancient".  Not, only is it just presented, but there has been a lot of politics involved in it's introduction to the Filipino mainstream.  If no one argues that "kali" is neither 'ancient' nor 'filipino', everyone will think Kali is really the "Ancient Mother Art" of Eskrima and Arnis.  

Arnis and Eskrima are Spanish in origin, we do not have to debate this.  The word Filipino with its current definition, is only a century old also.  When you concede that "Kali" is not 'Ancient', and is actually a newer term compared to Arnis and Eskrima, then there is no more argument.

They are just terms within the broader concept that is Filipino Martial Arts, not one term better, or more 'Ancient' than the other.  Just terms used to name a still evolving art.
Title: Re: Something to ponder
Post by: Kaliman Mythology on July 24, 2004, 07:02:42 PM
Quote from: SUNHELMET
<<Correct me if I am wrong, but Eskrima or Escrima are Filipino versions of the Spanish word Esgrima or Esgrime, correct? This word is Spanish for Fencing, which the Filipinos eventually adopted. >>

Did Filipinos adopt the word or actual western duel/sport fencing methods? Filipino 'eskrima' and Spanish 'esgrima' are technically not taught the same or even use the same shape of weapons.

<<Arnis is said to have come from Arnes, which means Harness in Spanish. Arnes de Mano would mean Harness of the Hand, to describe the interwining nature of Filipino martial arts. >>

Yes, I've read this in FMA books but there's no record of this in any historical book. If we are to have the criteria for the word, 'kali'... we should also apply it on these two terms as well.

<<Another school of thought, would be that Arnis de Mano, came from Armas de Mano, meaning Weapons of the Hand, as oppose to Armas de Fuego, which would mean Weapons by Fire, or FireArms. Armas de Mano eventually evolved into Arnis de Mano, cut short into Arnis. >>

Again, this is just means Spanish terminology applied to a Filipino method of war... it does not have any roots beyond the FMA books. The Spanish did not have a term for the way the Filipinos fought... just "devilish, cunning, furious...etc."

<<Both Eskrima and Arnis are recognized widely throughout the Philippines, even among those who do not practice it.>>

Yes, as FMA terms... but again- there is no evidence that these terms existed in Spanish journals or any other records during the turn of the 1900's pertaining to Filipino's ways of war. For those so critical of the Fil-Ams use of the word 'kali' to describe the same methods without the Spanish influence.. beyond that, I'm still seeking to find what the arts were called during the Katipunan or even at the turn of the 1900's.

If there's no evidence of the words Arnis or Eskrima pertaining to Filipino martial methods prior to 1900's or even later... then this means that the word 'kali' is only pre dated by a few decades is it not?

This is leading me to the conclusion that FMAs and other Pinoys are just squabbling over words that are only a hundred years old at the most - and a few decades apart (if that) and were NEVER the words that our forefathers used to describe what they did... because they were too busy trying to survive to make an 'artform' with charts and drills etc.

Just like any of the practical sword masters from any culture.. the fighting came way before the manuals. If they were still fighting for their way of life with swords a hundred years ago... then they were not making schools or books about their martial art.

In my eyes, that's what makes the FMAs so practical because the art is still a living art.

--Rafael--
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Well then why don't we just use what term we Filipinos use in the Philippines which is Arnis and Eskrima. Case closed.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty Dog on July 24, 2004, 07:39:16 PM
OK then, what about Yambao?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: tony on July 25, 2004, 01:03:47 AM
Correction: Mirafuente wrote that portion, not Yambao.  (this part is opinion, but there's a good chance the word "kali" he writes about is merely the truncated version of "kalirongan")
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: tony on July 25, 2004, 01:11:12 AM
Atleast if one uses Kalirongan in place of Kali, then he/she will be able to point to a particular region and ethno-linguistic group from which their term originates or is used.  You cannot do this with "Kali".  

Who uses Eskrima? Well, the Bisayas, mostly.  Who uses Arnis? Mostly, the Tagalogs.  Then we get to Kali... and NOBODY KNOWS!!! (although many Fil-Ams do, in the US.) :roll:
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on July 25, 2004, 08:40:26 AM
No one seems to notice that "Kali" has no natural conjugations.  This is a linguistic basic, if you have a verb or concept, you can usually take the root of that verb or concept and be able to create a word that represents the do-er, according to the rules of one's language.

In Tagalog, war is digma, the person who 'does' war is a mandirigma.  In Bisaya it's gubat, the warrior is called mangugubat.  Farm is uma, and farmer is magu'uma.  Fish is isda, Fisherman is mangingisda.

This is also true for other languages.  In Arabic, jihad is war, so it follows that the warrior is called a mujahad, or its plural, mujahadeen.  In Japanese, the person who practices karate is a karateka.

Kali which is suppose to, not only be Filipino, but Ancient, cannot be conjugated in anyway that is natural to any Filipino languages.  This is why in the US, the person who practices Kali is either a kaliman or better yet, a kaliista (sort of like a barista?).

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: dog buiscuit on July 25, 2004, 07:57:12 PM
Quote from: Crafty Dog
OK then, what about Yambao?


Well then, didnt he call his book somethnig likke
'
"Karunungan sa Larong Arnis"? or something.....and mind  you...Yambao's Tagalog int the text even sounded like pre-modern Tagalog akin to  Ye Old English
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on July 25, 2004, 08:26:20 PM
To get up to speed, please read further back in the thread about Mirafuente's intro to Yambao's book.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: dogbuiscuit on July 26, 2004, 04:19:22 PM
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
To get up to speed, please read further back in the thread about Mirafuente's intro to Yambao's book.


I did and I've read it myself and understood it withouth translation because it was written in my native old style Tagalog.

Mabuhay and Arnis at Eskrima.
Title: "Kali" usage / linguistic research
Post by: Witchdoctor on August 02, 2004, 09:36:38 PM
Wow, all this discussion / debate over a single word! I?m really new to the FMA scene, but have noticed this topic often.
   Purely academic interests aside, is it really that important to so many people? I get the feeling some people are almost offended by its spreading use because it might be a term of American origin. Even if its historic use in the Philippines is not proven or even disproven, is it going to vanish from use or cause those using it to be shunned? It seems to me that even if it were 100% a modern, Americanized term, as long as its use was kept in context it should be okay and ?acceptable? to use. As long as one teaching an "old and historically  pure" art used a traditional name, rather than Kali, nothing would be lost or corrupted. The term could  be seen in this context to have a valid use; it seems that many teachers here in America do have their own flavour of FMA, often integrating techniques from other martial arts in order to have a more varied palette to draw from, whether for fighting, or  customizing for a student?s individual ability. I see no reason why Kali could not be a valid term for this, regardless of its etymology. I realize that what I just said of teachers here in America could probably be valid for any of the teachers of FMA over the ages, as most people tend to customize/emphasize to some extent, however I mean to keep the term for a kind of "melting pot" version, still a true escrima/arnis, but with wider-reaching influences, designed/ taught in this country. At least then it would have a bit of its own identity, rather than being another colloquial synonym. Can?t we all just get along?
        For the fellow researching this: have you checked any Spanish historical documents? Perhaps the journals or personal letters or military reports of some old kings still exist from the time during or just after the time they had rule of the Philippines. I just traced this post (dexter, march 9) from my email back  to the DB?s forum, then back to martialtalk forum, back to a Balintawak thread, how hard can it be to trace a word back 500 years? ;)   Now, where?s  Magellan?s diary ?  
   --Just my 2 cent,
      WitchDoctor
Title: Re: "Kali" usage / linguistic research
Post by: Anonymous on August 03, 2004, 09:18:14 AM
Quote from: Witchdoctor
As long as one teaching an "old and historically  pure" art used a traditional name, rather than Kali, nothing would be lost or corrupted. The term could  be seen in this context to have a valid use; it seems that many teachers here in America do have their own flavour of FMA, often integrating techniques from other martial arts in order to have a more varied palette to draw from, whether for fighting, or  customizing for a student?s individual ability. I see no reason why Kali could not be a valid term for this, regardless of its etymology. I realize that what I just said of teachers here in America could probably be valid for any of the teachers of FMA over the ages, as most people tend to customize/emphasize to some extent, however I mean to keep the term for a kind of "melting pot" version, still a true escrima/arnis, but with wider-reaching influences, designed/ taught in this country. At least then it would have a bit of its own identity, rather than being another colloquial synonym. Can?t we all just get along?


I think people are just a little pissed off, because of how this word (Kali) is being used.  People can call their art anything.  They can call it Goobleedoo.  But, when non-Filipinos and even American Filipinos, go around saying Kali is the lost ancient art from which Escrima and Arnes comes from, those who use those terms will get offended.

We all know the underlying reason for the propaganda is commercial, but you have to expect a response from Filipinos.  and the response is that KALI is NOT Filipino!!!  If you change your sales pitch to "Kali is what Villabrille named his art, it is by no means an 'ancient' word in the Philippines, although it is very much related to other fighting arts from the Philippines", then this will be most rational.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: georgeIII on August 12, 2004, 08:54:26 AM
has anyone been in an actual "kali" fight here? were people wearing bahags (filipino loin clothes)? did they have those fancy head bandanas? or those really cool "filipino" vests? were they wielding kampilans, sundangs, bolos, pinutis, and barongs, to the beat of the kulintang drums? did they say their orasyons? did they have their amulets? this sounds so exotic...  i think i wanna be in one.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 05, 2004, 02:11:59 PM
Great thread! Very informative.  At times repetitive, but full of good information.  Good lesson in History. Thanks!
Title: KALI not Filipino?
Post by: SUN HELMET on October 05, 2004, 02:57:25 PM
<<We all know the underlying reason for the propaganda is commercial, but you have to expect a response from Filipinos. and the response is that KALI is NOT Filipino!!! If you change your sales pitch to "Kali is what Villabrille named his art, it is by no means an 'ancient' word in the Philippines, although it is very much related to other fighting arts from the Philippines", then this will be most rational.>>

Stating "Kali is NOT Filipino" is NOT rational either.
Now there's debate over the "MOTHER Art" and "LOST " phrases, I can understand the arguments against that.

However, to state that Kali is NOT Filipino is also stretching the truth.

The word KALI whether it was invented yesterday or a thousand years ago (depending whose side of the argument one is on) was originated by Filipinos to call their martial art. An American or European did not invent that word. Even your own argumants point to FILIPINOS! That fact can not be disputed by any evidence to the contrary.

KALI is definitely FILIPINO because it describes a Filipino Martial Art as described by some Filipinos. It doesn't demean the other terms ike Eskrima or Arnes... they are Filipino as well.

Let's not get carried away and lose focus on the discussion.

The point that is being questioned was the time table of when the word KALI entered into the FMA vocabulary, NOT whether or not the word was originated by Filipinos.

--Rafael--
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Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: pepe on October 06, 2004, 08:43:29 AM
is the word FILIPINO here used to mean Filipino from the Philippine Islands, meaning historically intrinsic and coming from the Philippines? relevant historically.

or,

Filipino to mean identity, someone who came from the Philippines, but created something new outside of the Philippines, but because he or she came from the Philippines it is labeled FILIPINO.

(there's two concepts being used for the term FILIPINO).
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 07, 2004, 07:34:42 AM
question:

Guro Dan Inosanto creates the word MAPHILINDO, his parents are from the Philippines, he's filipino by blood, he has never visited the Philippines.

No body uses this word in the Philippines. Does this make MAPHILINDO a "Filipino" term? (as it relates to Kali).
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 07, 2004, 03:11:02 PM
MA= Malaysia
PHIL= Philippines
INDO= Indonesia
Title: FILIPINO
Post by: SUN HELMET on October 08, 2004, 06:29:31 AM
<<is the word FILIPINO here used to mean Filipino from the Philippine Islands, meaning historically intrinsic and coming from the Philippines? relevant historically. >>

By teaming the phrase, "Kali is NOT Filipino" to the discussion, it just piggy backs more luggage to an already heated subject. Something which appears contrary to the goal of seeking the 'truth'.

<<Filipino to mean identity, someone who came from the Philippines, but created something new outside of the Philippines, but because he or she came from the Philippines it is labeled FILIPINO.

(there's two concepts being used for the term FILIPINO).>>

It applies to the latter description because the individuals, excluding Guro Inosanto - who have the word attached to them still live in the Philippines ( GT Gaje), were first generation immigrants (Stockton/Hawaii Manongs) and some died there.

--Rafael--
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Title: Maphilindo
Post by: SUN HELMET on October 08, 2004, 06:32:43 AM
<<Guro Dan Inosanto creates the word MAPHILINDO, his parents are from the Philippines, he's filipino by blood, he has never visited the Philippines.

No body uses this word in the Philippines. Does this make MAPHILINDO a "Filipino" term? (as it relates to Kali).>>

No, because as the following post indicates... the term is an amalgam of various cultures and Guro Inosanto's research and training in silat.

I believe it makes it an "Inosanto" term.

--Rafael--
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Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 08, 2004, 07:27:52 AM
Isn't KALI also the result of the joining of two words: KAmut, and LIhok? (by Villabrille).  Then, it is similar to the word MAPHILINDO.  And, the label 'filipino' is arbitrary here (ex. Guro Inosanto could've just as easily come up with the word KALI, hypothetically because it came from him, would you label this term 'filipino' or an 'inosanto' term?).

It's better to judge this term using Filipino (meaning from the Philippines, i.e. historical, traditional, culture, regional, ethnic specific, language, etc.) basis, rather than arbitrary, general concepts of 'Filipino'-ness (because Filipinos use it, it is 'Filipino').

"It applies to the latter description because the individuals, excluding Guro Inosanto - who have the word attached to them still live in the Philippines ( GT Gaje), were first generation immigrants (Stockton/Hawaii Manongs) and some died there."

GT Gaje used KALI while in the U.S. and 'first generation immigrants' are just Floro Villabrille and Ben Largusa (is he first generation?) who use Kali.  No Stockton 'manongs' used KALI (if there are any, then as proof, you have to provide where their Kali comes from in the Philippines, which group, region, town, barrio, people used it.  otherwise, it's just faith.)

ex. Roland Dantes claims that there is Kali in Mindanao, but when asked where and which group uses the term Kali, he cannot answer the question of where and who (this is what i mean by, it's just faith).
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Anonymous on October 08, 2004, 07:33:28 AM
It is like saying Vee-jitsu and Eskrido are filipino terms.  Yes, filipinos made up these terms, but to say they're 'filipino' is somewhat of a stretch.  But, no one has problems with these terms, since no one says, 'Eskrido is the lost ancient art of the Filipino people', and rattles off misinformed history lessons.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: SUN HELMET on October 08, 2004, 03:13:39 PM
<<Isn't KALI also the result of the joining of two words: KAmut, and LIhok? (by Villabrille). Then, it is similar to the word MAPHILINDO. And, the label 'filipino' is arbitrary here (ex. Guro Inosanto could've just as easily come up with the word KALI, hypothetically because it came from him, would you label this term 'filipino' or an 'inosanto' term?). >>

Just going from this example (and not stating this is the case): 'Kamut' and 'Lihok' are words from the Philippines. 'Maphilindo' describes several countries and only partly includes the Philippines. I would describe 'Kali' as Filipino because we must remind ourselves that the discussion premise is whether or not KALI is the "LOST art" or "ANCIENT Art" ... NOT whether it is from a Filipino . Unless of course the whole debate is now whether or not 'Kali' is FILIPINO... which would be going away from the 'seeking the truth' premise and belie a whole other agenda. This would mean that you are saying that Villabrille or Lacoste didn't know 'Arnis' or 'Eskrima' if we are taking in the premise that the art of 'Kali' is one andthe same and not the 'LOST' art.

--Rafael--
btw, no one seems to be signing their posts here...
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: pepe on October 08, 2004, 05:15:47 PM
Quote from: SUN HELMET
which would be going away from the 'seeking the truth' premise and belie a whole other agenda. This would mean that you are saying that Villabrille or Lacoste didn't know 'Arnis' or 'Eskrima' if we are taking in the premise that the art of 'Kali' is one andthe same and not the 'LOST' art.


This is a good reminder and a good point.  I think, it's all one and the same, different names (maybe old, maybe not), but it's actually the same thing.
Title: kali is a fantasy
Post by: v. escondido on December 05, 2004, 06:06:02 AM
:shock: I'm new to the forum, I just want to enter into the fray on this interesting thread, and I agree with "Guest".

Kali is as real as the light sabers of Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker... that is if you're still into that myth.  Here's a link that's going to shatter all these lies about the kali story.  

http://www.cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html
Title: very informative thread !!!
Post by: joewambaugh on January 29, 2005, 04:50:51 PM
Hi, Everyone.  I just spent the last 2 hours (3 bathroom breaks) readinig through this really long thread.  I feel so much smarter about Filipino martial arts now.

I'm not Filipino, but I have just recently (about 6 months now) trained in Kali, at a small school in Reseda.  I love the art, but have never really looked into the history of it, until someone refered me to this thread.

This is the most comprehensive discussion about Kali, and I just want to thank everyone for all the information posted.  I have to go for a run now to stretch out my eyes.  This thread should be printed into a book.
Title: Kalibanga?
Post by: japtman on April 24, 2005, 08:44:13 PM
Kalibanga? KALIBANGA?! LOL what a joke  :lol:   :lol:   :lol:
I speak Cebuano and it means LBM (loose bowel movement) or more colorfully put as "the squirts"... hehehe

Rootword: Libang - to take a dump

Nice joke...


Quote from: beatnik warrior
below is also a good point... i believe studies have shown that the word KALI actually came from a popular Visayan word KALIBANGA'.  i've heard people say that this ancient word has been around since time began in the islands.  i think it has something to do with the water or the food found there.  it's worth looking into...

Quote from: Guest
so KALI is just an arbitrary fussion of two visayan words?

so it could've been KUPA, for KUmo (fist) and PAspas (speed), or maybe LALI, for LAwas (body) and LIhok (movement).

the question is... where's the historicity of this WORD?  if there is none, then just say it's a filipino-american development in the 60s.  and it will be accepted as a new development in FMA.  but, to say something is historical without the minimum of proofs is just silly.
Title: funny ...
Post by: joewambaugh on May 09, 2005, 05:16:35 PM
HAHaha...  great to learn a new Filipino word everyday. :lol:
Title: http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom3.html
Post by: joewambaugh on May 19, 2005, 08:24:08 PM
can anyone verify the statements in this article?

from: http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom3.html

"Except for silat / kuntao that many kali fanatics unsuccessfully try to connect with FMA, not a single Filipino Muslim grandmaster has come out to the fore. Secrecy? Then why is everyone in the U.S. selling VHS kali videos of this so-called secret Martial Art? So who's the windbag who spilled all the secrets of kali to the Caucasians and not to his brethren Pinoys? Simply preposterous! Practically 98% of the middle 20th century grandmasters the very pioneers and innovators of the FMA are Cebuanos. So where's the Moro kali grandmaster?

The most compelling evidence to prove our theory on the origins of eskrima are the epic stories of Solferino Borinaga of Pilar, Camotes and the Sabanal saga beginning with the story of the early pioneer of Moalboal Laurente "Laguno" Sabanal down to the living heirs of his son Pablo "Amboy Kidlat" Sabanal.
"

...........................................

"Borinaga?s son Martin took over the leadership of the tiny islet of Camotes, which used to be called Isla sa Putting Baybayon (White Beach Island) and renamed it after his wife Pilar. The only living master of Kapitan Perong?s system called Repikada Pegada Eskrima is Yuly Romo who teaches the style as supplementary lessons to Ka?li Ilustrisimo. He inherited the system from his uncle Tatay Anas Romo who acquired it from Emong Urias of Guindulman, Bohol. Emong Urias and his paisano (compatriot) Pedro Cortez once taught close quarters techniques to the late GM Antonio Ilustrisimo.  GM Tatang Ilustrisimo learned the subtleties of praksyon a technique outside of the original Ilustrisimo family system from both Boholano masters.  Tatang never learned "kali" or eskrima from any Moro master while in exile in Mindanao according to Master Yuly Romo.  That's a serious blow to the Moro myth in the Ilustrisimo system!" :arrow:
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Sun_Helmet on May 20, 2005, 10:52:15 AM
It's a way to say that one group 'created' a curriculum based framework of FMA that we know today, rather than the FMA that was about waging war.

A way to promote that the way Visayan Filipinos were taught stick and blade is the only way to view what FMA is all about.

It all depends on the your perspective... It was obviously no secret that bladed arts exists in Mindanao, someone was cutting off all those Spanish heads. Was this FMA? If not, then perhaps FMA students will want to learn THAT martial art instead, because it was quite effective against the Visayans and their Spanish allies! :wink:


--Rafael--
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: antoy on May 20, 2005, 10:54:20 PM
Quote from: Sun_Helmet
A way to promote that the way Visayan Filipinos were taught stick and blade is the only way to view what FMA is all about.

It all depends on the your perspective... It was obviously no secret that bladed arts exists in Mindanao, someone was cutting off all those Spanish heads. Was this FMA? If not, then perhaps FMA students will want to learn THAT martial art instead, because it was quite effective against the Visayans and their Spanish allies! :wink:

--Rafael--

With all due respects, I've talked with commanders in Zamboanga including concurrent Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Edilberto Adan to really delve into the combat mindset of the Moro rebel.  And what I got was really scary... one of the General's aides a certain Major Bermudez revealed the the Moro fighters were averse to formation combat and were individualistic fighters and very difficult to discipline, however, their only weapon is the suicidal charge that SCARED the heck out of the Spaniards, subsequently the Americans and the Visayan mercenaries.  

Yes, the Junior officers and ranking commanders of the MILF and MNLF had rigid military trainig, but in contrast whatever type of training the rank and file had were basically- charge! aim, and fire...  Not because the field commanders were bad trainers, it's the culture of "die and go to paradise" that has been ingrained in the mind of the typical Moro warrior.  That would have been the same type of martial training they had more than 300 years ago - charge!, cut and slash!  Other non-Muslim tribes in Mindanao like the Subanon, Tiroray, Bukidnon, Manobo, Hongking also possess an array of bladed weapons, but they have practically no weapons based organized martial art!

If indeed those Moro blades were effective against the Visayans whose villages they have raided for hundreds of years, then why have they not gained a permanent foothold of the Visayan villages, the Moro settlement in Cebu City is just a small block in Pasil and none in the coastal towns they once raided.  In contrast more 80 % of Mindanao speak Cebuano Visayan language.  So the question is:  Who conquered whom?  Where's Moro Grandmaster?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Sun_Helmet on May 21, 2005, 06:35:04 AM
Quote from: antoy

 Where's Moro Grandmaster?


Look at your last question... "Where's Moro Grandmaster?"...

That's what I'm talking about.
"Grandmaster" was never a term used by anyone in the Philippines prior to a hundred years ago. That's a systemized foreign based framework (Spanish, Japanese, American) that you are trying to fit into another culture. We all know that historically, tribal leaders WERE that tribes 'GrandMasters'... they were warriors.

Some FMA instructors and students desire to invalidate the fighting prowess of the 'Moros' by this method. Development of teaching methods founded on a foreign criteria which suits the commercialized MA structures of today does not lessen the historical fighting prowess of the Moros.

Quote from: antoy
If indeed those Moro blades were effective against the Visayans whose villages they have raided for hundreds of years, then why have they not gained a permanent foothold of the Visayan villages, they have raided for hundreds of years


Again, look at your comment, "they raided for hundreds of years".
Don't you think the development of firearms, the alliances with Spain and America, and many other elements had something to do with that?

Based on your own set of criteria, prior to those significant developments, your "non Moro" martial arts was not very effective was it? The Moros fought their way all the way to 'Maynila'.

As per the opinions of heresay from ( quoted from TWO degrees of separation from the actual source) someone who considers the Moro their enemy, what do you think they are going to say? I've read history books written from the same perspective, except they demonize the Moros even more.

Quote from: antoy
the Moro settlement in Cebu City is just a small block in Pasil and none in the coastal towns they once raided. In contrast more 80 % of Mindanao speak Cebuano Visayan language. So the question is: Who conquered whom?

That's the whole weakness of this whole thread. Everything is based on what LANGUAGE is being used... and I stated earlier that other's TRUE agenda will surface.

It was not to state that Filipinos had their own ways of battle, but that ONE segment of Filipinos is FMA.

If it is based on systemized foreign frameworks, that may well be true... especially when one side is writing their own version of criterias which exclude others.

However, history tells us otherwise. And again, history will bite those who use this method of exclusion, because "who conquered whom", based on the influence of communication... If that was the case - we're currently both 'speaking' ENGLISH. FMA is now being translated into english based formats... in a few more years, it won't even be Filipino if you think it of it that way.

Quote from: antoy
Other non-Muslim tribes in Mindanao like the Subanon, Tiroray, Bukidnon, Manobo, Hongking also possess an array of bladed weapons, but they have practically no weapons based organized martial art!  


Eventually this mindset will Divide and Conquer our ancestor's legacies.

Who conquered whom indeed.

--Rafael--

PS. "Charge, cut and slash"...he forgot that the Moros used the "Thrust" as well. That's pretty much the purest form of swordsmanship.

Hit and run is also part of effective guerilla warfare isn't it? Why would the Moros wish to fight in western formations? Unless we're now stating that war has to be fought the way our Spanish 'Grandmasters' fought it.
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: antoy on May 22, 2005, 02:03:47 AM
Quote from: Sun_Helmet
Quote from: antoy

 Where's Moro Grandmaster?


Look at your last question... "Where's Moro Grandmaster?"...

That's what I'm talking about.
"Grandmaster" was never a term used by anyone in the Philippines prior to a hundred years ago. That's a systemized foreign based framework (Spanish, Japanese, American) that you are trying to fit into another culture. We all know that historically, tribal leaders WERE that tribes 'GrandMasters'... they were warriors.

Some FMA instructors and students desire to invalidate the fighting prowess of the 'Moros' by this method. Development of teaching methods founded on a foreign criteria which suits the commercialized MA structures of today does not lessen the historical fighting prowess of the Moros.

Quote from: antoy
If indeed those Moro blades were effective against the Visayans whose villages they have raided for hundreds of years, then why have they not gained a permanent foothold of the Visayan villages, they have raided for hundreds of years


.

Okay, okay, just spoofing the most abused title in the FMA ...and I agree that the title grandmaster is a recent adaptation modelled after the Chinese and Japanese martial arts ranking. SO, let me rephrase the question...Where's the Moro Kali expert? Where are the Kali schools in Mindanao?

It's not a question of demonizing the Moro fighting prowess, no martial artist in his right mind will question that! The issue is - whatever martial art they practiced that until now has not surfaced; that has a traceable verifiable lineage down to at least a hundred years definitely did not influence the highly technical FMA - eskrima, arnis estokada that we see today. The Ilustrisimo system has an authentic lineage that dates back 200 years ago. Other Visayan systems may have an even older pedigree. You see, all of the systems named Kali, trace back their lineage to the Visayan region and not to Muslim Mindanao.  How can you reconcile with that? The crux of this debate is not the name Kali per se...it's the claim that Kali is the mother of eskrima, arnis. Eskrima, arnis, estokada is a cultural heritage of the Cebuanos, Ilonggos, and Pampangos, anyone serious about the FMA should respect that!   :wink:  

Let's stop mumbling about "TRUE" agenda, demonizing Moros, neither are there any racial undertones in this thread!  there's none! Let's stick to the issue, show us a Moro warrior that can trace his lineage 200 years back. It's that simple, no need to over intellectualize.

Moreover, it's not my agenda to deprecate the Moro people, their culture and arts, frankly I believe they deserve a homeland...but that's a way bit off the topic here. :wink: Cheers!
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Sun_Helmet on May 22, 2005, 11:26:28 AM
Quote from: antoy

Okay, okay, just spoofing the most abused title in the FMA ...and I agree that the title grandmaster is a recent adaptation modelled after the Chinese and Japanese martial arts ranking. SO, let me rephrase the question...Where's the Moro Kali expert? Where are the Kali schools in Mindanao?


I've already answered this 'kali' question within the pages of the thread.

My perspective is not that Kali is the 'mother art'. My perspective is that systemized teaching and the use of the blade for survival are two different subjects.

And again, the Moro FMA expert is found in our history books. You can see their filed teeth and blades in old photos.

In fact, if you look at old photos of some Moros posing, you will definitely see they have a martial art based on effective techniques, not learned from 'schools/dojos' but life. In the book on the Kris by Cato, there's a great photo of two Moros posing in the early 1900's. One is checking the other with their sword sheath! Now that's not someone who just charges and cuts without thought.

Quote from: antoy

It's not a question of demonizing the Moro fighting prowess, no martial artist in his right mind will question that!  


Your quoted source seems to simplify the Moro's fighting prowess by stating that the Moros wielded blades without much technique. I would disagree. Anything effective is viable technique.

Systemization of a person's movement is NOT the same as lacking technique.

For example, any MA instructor who has been trained to understand concepts of fighting can take anyone's fighting movement and create a system of MA. I believe most if not all Arnis and Eskrima instructors have done this Western styled process. Just because no one has done so for a Moro does not mean a MARTIAL art does not exist.

As you stated, your criteria is based on ORGANIZED FMA... well, based on other culture's MAs .. many FMA do not meet their standards of what ORGANIZED is.

Quote from: antoy

The issue is - whatever martial art they practiced that until now has not surfaced; that has a traceable verifiable lineage down to at least a hundred years definitely did not influence the highly technical FMA - eskrima, arnis estokada that we see today.


I disagree, Moro martial lineage is found in history books and records of their battles. Unless, what you're seeking is a curriculum and ranking based on other culture's standards.

 
Quote from: antoy
The Ilustrisimo system has an authentic lineage that dates back 200 years ago. Other Visayan systems may have an even older pedigree. You see, all of the systems named Kali, trace back their lineage to the Visayan region and not to Muslim Mindanao.  How can you reconcile with that? The crux of this debate is not the name Kali per se...it's the claim that Kali is the mother of eskrima, arnis. Eskrima, arnis, estokada is a cultural heritage of the Cebuanos, Ilonggos, and Pampangos, anyone serious about the FMA should respect that!   :wink:  


I do not disagree with you about the cultural heritage of other Filipinos, but to exclude the Muslim's contribution in shaping the way these other Filipinos fought is really a wonderful way to shoot oneself in the foot.

You have a quote from someone who tries to invalidate the Moro fighting prowess by stating all they do is charge, cut and slash, yet you claim that there's no agenda.


Quote from: antoy
Let's stick to the issue, show us a Moro warrior that can trace his lineage 200 years back. It's that simple, no need to over intellectualize.


Nice try.
Well, that is not the issue of this thread. That's an attempt to limit the discussion so that it suits the answer you already accept. That's like saying, "Everyone acknowledges that Moros are GREAT swimmers. So great that everyone was shocked at their prowess. However since Moros do not have a school of swimming, and do not have accredited swimming instructors that means they should not be credited for Filipino swimming."
It might work if we only live in a world of sanctions, clubs, competitions  and certificates. And let's not be coy or naive enough to think that this does not also pertain to marketing.


Whether you realize it or not, you're asking for a Moro that studied under Western, Chinese or Japanese martial art standards of rank and system. Or a Moro that follows other Filipinos' standards of teaching and systemization. Here's the main part... these other Filipinos probably shaped their system of fighting by using outside influences of structure. There's nothing wrong with that.

However, to state that is the only way to recognize that one has a martial art is ignoring the obvious:

Everyone knows Moros can, and did fight with a blade... well.

Igorots have a martial art as well, they don't have certificates but they had heads aligning their huts.

That is FILIPINO Martial Arts.

Once you discredit their legacy by forcing them into standards created by others, you are dangerously watering down what appealed to outside cultures to begin with - Effectiveness of their combative mindset.

Quote from: antoy
Moreover, it's not my agenda to deprecate the Moro people, their culture and arts, frankly I believe they deserve a homeland...but that's a way bit off the topic here. :wink: Cheers!


Well and good. I'm just pointing out the bigger picture to you. FMA is not one tribe's... it is the history of the islands and ALL our ancestors. There's many excellent Eskrima and Arnis Filipino instructors, they are PART of the legacy but they do not have sole claim to Filipino martial history.

Again, we need to learn the lessons of a Divided and Conquered mentality.

Btw, is there a Musashi samurai school?
Is there a Macedonian Martial Arts Seminar anywhere?
How about el - Tawil's scimitar sparring class?

Based on your limited criteria, these great warriors never had a REAL martial art.

--Rafael--
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: antoy on May 23, 2005, 02:41:35 AM
Quote from: Sun_Helmet
Quote from: antoy


That is FILIPINO Martial Arts.

Once you discredit their legacy by forcing them into standards created by others, you are dangerously watering down what appealed to outside cultures to begin with - Effectiveness of their combative mindset.

Quote from: antoy
Moreover, it's not my agenda to deprecate the Moro people, their culture and arts, frankly I believe they deserve a homeland...but that's a way bit off the topic here. :wink: Cheers!


Well and good. I'm just pointing out the bigger picture to you. FMA is not one tribe's... it is the history of the islands and ALL our ancestors. There's many excellent Eskrima and Arnis Filipino instructors, they are PART of the legacy but they do not have sole claim to Filipino martial history.

Again, we need to learn the lessons of a Divided and Conquered mentality.

Btw, is there a Musashi samurai school?
Is there a Macedonian Martial Arts Seminar anywhere?
How about el - Tawil's scimitar sparring class?

Based on your limited criteria, these great warriors never had a REAL martial art.

--Rafael--

Yes... no argument on the  foregoing    .... and let me add, there's no Sitting Bull Dojo, or a Geronimo Martial Arts Institute, or Egil Skalagrimsson Sword School!.. Musashi comes from the Niten-Ichi Ryu Dojo, yes but he did not systematize his system which was considered unorthodox during his era.

 :cry: You got me wrong, I stated clearly that whatever MARTIAL ART they practiced, it did not have any influence on modern day eskrima, neither is their proof that it is the so-called mother art Kali.   It would be foolish to assume they did not have a martial art, let's say for the sake of argument that they may only have a few slashes, cuts and thrusts...nonetheless it is still a martial art by any standard!  it may not be as systematized as the FMA and the Chinese and the Japanese arts.

Even, Olympic style fencing many European martial arts enthusiasts argue is no longer related to Renaissance rapier fencing, which probably became extinct by the turn of the 18th century.  

And I have no argument either that the FMA is the legacy of the entire Filipino people not just a few select tribes.  What i found atrocious is that a lot of the FMA in the U.S. seem to mislead everyone by solely giving credit to the Moro people for the FMA, you can see instructors and guros in full Moro regalia, and it's all over the internet.  I hope you see my point here:?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Sun_Helmet on May 23, 2005, 08:59:07 AM
Quote from: antoy

 :cry: You got me wrong, I stated clearly that whatever MARTIAL ART they practiced, it did not have any influence on modern day eskrima, neither is their proof that it is the so-called mother art Kali.   It would be foolish to assume they did not have a martial art, let's say for the sake of argument that they may only have a few slashes, cuts and thrusts...nonetheless it is still a martial art by any standard!


I don't belong to the thought that the Moros did not have ANY influence on modern day eskrima (although there's probably a whole other thread that could be focused on what 'modern day' eskrima is). If the Moros were the primary enemy of other tribes during the time of bladed warfare, then there is no way the other side can evolve in a vacuum. One has to be able to know the enemy, use what works and so on. Not understanding this mindset is not understanding the Filipino's talent to make anything useful their own. If we look at accounts of non Muslim Filipinos in battles, they too did the run, slash cut etc. because the way of tribal bladed warfare is fluidity not formations.

Quote from: antoy
it may not be as systematized as the FMA and the Chinese and the Japanese arts.


I do agree that the Moro methods of warfare is not the mother art of Kali (since I don't subscribe to that phrasing), but I disagree when you segregate Moro methods as if it is not FMA.

If one believes Moros are Filipino, and they have a martial art- then they are part of Filipino Martial Arts. Commercialization of the methods of combat is not my criteria of what a martial art is. And until Moros form their own country, they are Filipino.

Quote from: antoy

And I have no argument either that the FMA is the legacy of the entire Filipino people not just a few select tribes.  What i found atrocious is that a lot of the FMA in the U.S. seem to mislead everyone by solely giving credit to the Moro people for the FMA, you can see instructors and guros in full Moro regalia, and it's all over the internet.  I hope you see my point here:?


I see your point about appropriating Moro culture by itself.
In Sayoc Kali we use different images of Filipino warriors in our logos and visual material. Although we have Moro inspired images, we also have Kalinga, Tagal, Igorot etc. influences in the visuals. The point from our POV is we focus on the fighting spirit and legacy of the Filipino... inspirational,  NOT the imitation and supposed teaching of Moro warfare methods (if that is what you mean by instructors wearing the regalia etc.)

In addition, Sayoc Kali strives to constantly evolve so terminology and teaching methods are crossovers from many cultures and studies. We've had internet critics state that what we teach isn't even FMA because we do not use Filipino terminology, which is the same language trap all over again.

--Rafael--
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: joewambaugh on May 24, 2005, 10:44:21 AM
antoy: if you read from the very beginning of this thread (like i have--it only takes maybe 2 hours, if you're a slow reader like me) all of what you have said has already been discuss.  old news...

rafael (or anyone who knows of the illustrisimo style): have you heard of these names in the article? (Solferino Borinaga of Pilar, Camotes and the Sabanal saga beginning with the story of the early pioneer of Moalboal Laurente "Laguno" Sabanal down to the living heirs of his son Pablo "Amboy Kidlat" Sabanal).

The only living master of Kapitan Perong?s system called Repikada Pegada Eskrima is Yuly Romo who teaches the style as supplementary lessons to Ka?li Ilustrisimo. He inherited the system from his uncle Tatay Anas Romo who acquired it from Emong Urias of Guindulman, Bohol. Emong Urias and his paisano (compatriot) Pedro Cortez once taught close quarters techniques to the late GM Antonio Ilustrisimo.
Title: map of cebu
Post by: joewambaugh on September 16, 2005, 11:20:20 AM
http://www.cebueskrima.s5.com/custom3.html

There is a map if you scroll down the link that is very interesting, and very relevant to the statements below.

Quote from: Guest
Quote from: Leo Gaje Jr.
When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival...


Quote from: Romy Macapagal
Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book.


man, this is some serious propaganda campaign!!!
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Mike Brewer on September 16, 2005, 11:46:29 AM
I've debated this type of thing at length with a number of folks, including some of my instructors.  I am of the humble opinion that you can go ahead and call a person whatever he or she feels most like being called.  As far as titles or terminology or technique?  It's purely a semantic debate.  

When karate people refer to their techniques by the Japanese name, or they count in japanese, where did they get the habit?  From seeing the way their arts were taught in Japan, right?  Well, guess what?  In Japan, they speak Japanese!  If they spoke enlish, you'd most likely hear them say "One, Two, Three" instead of "Ichi, Ni, San!"

Same with Chinese, Filipino, Malaysian, Indonesian, etc. etc. etc.  If you want to preserve that part of the art for the sake of preserving it, then great.  But terminology is far more important to the scholar than the fighter.  Fighters can plainly see what you're doing, and they care far less what you call it than how well it works.  It might have been a pin choy, a reverse punch, an "elephant's head" (or some other equally cryptic code), or just a simple cross.  In the end, what happened was a guy smacked another guy with the front part of his closed fist and either the fella went down or he didn't.

Same with teachers.  If a teacher asks to be called a certain thing, that's like a name.  But if he or she is relying on the presumed respect of a title like grandmaster-poobah or some such rather than relying on his/her ability to teach?  That's just junk.  The way I see it, those instructors who were most concerned with developing functional fighting ability and being effective teachers generally care the very least about their titles.  Those who are into the arts for personal esteem make it a bigger deal.  I can't remember a time when I heard a decorated soldier demand that civilians refer to them by rank, or a time when someone like muhammad Ali asked that the public please refer to him as the Grandmaster of Boxing.  I'd have to guess that the Filipino greats are much the same way about it.

Just my two cents...

Mike
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Mike Brewer on September 16, 2005, 11:48:59 AM
One last thing here...

I just read Sun Helmet's post, and I have to agree.  Teach your audience - the people who are sitting right there in front of you.  If it's easier for them to understand ancient sanskrit and tagalog, then use those terms.  However, if it's a bunch of english speaking americans, speaking english may well be easier to understand...
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: joewambaugh on September 16, 2005, 11:55:54 AM
I don't understand, was that response for the map I was referring to in the website?
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: joewambaugh on September 16, 2005, 11:59:38 AM
Quote from: Mike Brewer
I've debated this type of thing at length with a number of folks, including some of my instructors.  I am of the humble opinion that you can go ahead and call a person whatever he or she feels most like being called.  As far as titles or terminology or technique?  It's purely a semantic debate.  


What other type of debate would it be?

I think what people are discussing here is whether a word is authentic (as claimed), so it's a discussion about history, terminology, and semantics-- nothing more.
Title: Re: map of cebu
Post by: Sun_Helmet on September 18, 2005, 11:54:49 AM
From the linked article:

"4.)? The role of the warrior Jesuit priests that accompanied De Chavez?s expeditionary force. They also taught orasciones to the Christianized Cebuano natives during the long boat trip to Zamboanga. Thus orascion became an integral ritual among eskrimadors. "


This is UNTRUE in terms of these specific Jesuit Priests being WARRIORS. The statement above implies the Jesuits were fighting side by side with De Chavez's soldiers. If the soldiers were to read that today they would be spinning in their morions. I could believe them teaching orasciones to the natives, but there's no evidence of these two being warriors. The Spanish records of the JESUIT order themselves contradict this.

They were NOT warrior Jesuit Priests, because the Jesuits kept records of the Frays that accompanied the expedition AND the actual commentary by the Spanish soldiers who were ON that very Zamboanga expedition STATED so!

The De Chavez Zamboanga expedition was on April 6, 1635.
The two Jesuits friars who accompanied the De Chavez expedition were Pedro Guiterrez, the founder of Dapitan, and Melchor de Vera, who started the mission forts in Leyte.

"They (Jesuit Friars on the De Chavez expedition) were NOT very popular. Many of the (Spanish)  officers and men had no stomach for the enterprise, which took them far away from Manila and too CLOSE to the Moros." page 325

The Spanish soldiers were to build a fort in that area, but had questions on how to supply it with water. There was much grumbling because De Chavez put the Jesuit friar, Melchor de Vera in charge of construction. The Jesuits were more like foremen who assisted the engineers in finding a workable quarry of good adobe stone and a spring for a water source.

There was NO fighting involved, just plain BUILDING. The Jesuits were labeled as INQUISITIVE to the dismay of the Spanish who had to appease their new foreman.

Quoted from the book 'JESUITS IN THE PHILIPPINES' (  the actual records of the Jesuits from 1581- 1768):
One of the disgruntled soldiers had half a mind to stop the inquisitive Jesuit from making any further discoveries, muttering that he would much rather "put two bullets in this priest than Corralat (Kachil Kudarat)" page 326, Jesuits in the Philippines

These two Jesuits did chaplain work (that is recorded).
Friar de Vera's was on board with a Friar Armano on a separate expedition against DUTCH forces to  exhort and hear confessions of Spaniards and natives in the armada. The Spanish did not need any warrior friars because this expedition carried 2000 Spanish tercios and uncounted natives. No record of these Jesuits fighting at all. Other Jesuits were sent into the galleys to calm the chained "wretched" for the ordeal.

De Vega was again in Zamboanga but not with Chavez, it was during Corcuera's expedition and the friar was sent to ratify a peace treaty with Kudarat's followers, AFTER the battle had already finished.

There is no record of these specific friars actually taking up the sword against the Moros. Their job was to organize and spread Christian teachings, act as chaplains and assist in treaties/communication.

Beyond that is all unsubstantiated speculation.

--Rafael--
Title: The Jesuit Warrior Priest
Post by: Sun_Helmet on September 19, 2005, 06:24:59 AM
A WARRIOR Jesuit Priest ('warrior' meaning actively engaged in the use of arms and fought in actual battles) was an EXTREME exception as recorded in the accounts of the Jesuits in the Philippines. To refer to these specific Jesuits above as Warriors is a distortion of first hand accounts.

There's only ONE Jesuit Priest I have found who fit the description of a warrior priest in the Moro campaigns. Out of the list of hundreds of Jesuits on record, a WARRIOR Jesuit Priest ('warrior' meaning actively engaged in the use of arms and fought in actual battles) was an EXTREME exception as recorded in the accounts of the Jesuits in the Philippines. To refer to these specific Jesuist above as Warriors is a distortion of first hand accounts.

He was the "famous Recollect missionary" at Butuan. The Jesuits record (1639) that this priest DISTINGUISHED himself from the others because he was a warrior. He was "El Padre Capitan" Fray Augustin San Pedro.

However, to use one Jesuit priest's accomplishments in war to reflect that other Jesuits were of like mind and spirit is a distortion of their accomplishments in the islands.

Some have implied that these warrior priests taught these natives the arts of Spanish war, ironically the ONE priest recorded as having done so taught natives from BUTUAN located in MINDANAO, not the Visayan region.

--Rafael--
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: joewambaugh on September 19, 2005, 04:49:43 PM
Thanks! Rafael...

Could you provide a bibliography of sorts, a short list of the books related to the Jesuits in the Filipines, and where we might find these books (or websites).
Title: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Sun_Helmet on September 20, 2005, 02:01:00 PM
Quote from: joewambaugh
Thanks! Rafael...
Could you provide a bibliography of sorts, a short list of the books related to the Jesuits in the Filipines, and where we might find these books (or websites).


The best one IMO, 'JESUITS IN THE PHILIPPINES' (which were the actual records of the Jesuits from 1581- 1768) Harvard University Press. It even has a list of EVERY Jesuit who was recorded to have been on the islands, and if they have it on record, the date of death and how. It can run you from $50 - 300.00!

There's mention here and there in other books. Blair and Robertson has some, Morga's book has some... but the books do not focus entirely on the Jesuits nor go into detail like the above book. There's Filipino authored books, but again that would be from the other side's POV and one that has some accounts is The Kris In Mindanao History.

I wouldn't go by SWISH OF THE KRIS by Hurley neither, because I have also found inaccuracies in that book. He started the whole "Sword/Cross" thing that has been taken literally by some.

--Rafael--
Title: continued
Post by: joewambaugh on December 20, 2005, 04:46:13 PM
Below is an example of how semantics, ignorance of history, and self promotion, creates confusion in FMA.

1. FMA did not originate in Cebu.

2. There is no historical source that references a "Datu Mangal" to a "PAKAMUT" form of fighting in the Philippines.

3.  During the time of Lapu Lapu, as well as his father's generation, the Sri Visayan empire had long been gone.  Although, Islam was found in Cebu, during Magellan's arrival.

4.  The Sri Vishayan Empire was Hindu, not Malay.

5.  The Battle of Mactan was about Magellan's hubris, not superior martial arts.  Magellan and a handful of his men stuck in the mud off Mactan, being butchered by hundreds of Lapu Lapu's men, can hardly be called a battle.  It was a massacre.

6.  Lapu Lapu killed Magellan because he knew Magellan was going to kill him as part of Magellan's pact with Lapu Lapu's enemy Datu Humabon.  Lapu Lapu killed Magellan out of survival, not some abstract notion of geo politics.

7.  No one's ever heard of PAKAMUT.

(Parallel to Kali, mis-information, renaming and misrepresentation of Philippine history)




http://www.pfletch.com/pakamut/


The Filipino Martial Arts originated in the Cebu Province of Central Philippines. It is believed that Datu Mangal, the father of Datu Lapu-Lapu, brought the art of stick fighting called PAKAMUT to the Philippine Islands. Datu Mangal was once a leader of the famous Sri Visayan Empire. The powerful Empire of Malay.

The Filipino Fighting Art was tested during the famous Battle of Mactan, an island in the Cebu Province, on April 27, 1521. This destined battle was between the infamous circumnavigator, Ferdinand Magellan and his warriors, against the local native fighters lead by Datu Lapu-Lapu. Datu Lapu-Lapu, the first Pilipino hero, rejected submission to foreign power and refused to bow and give allegiance to the King of Spain.

During the Battle of Mactan, Ferdinand Magellan and his warriors, equipped with muskets and experienced swordsmen, was no match against Datu Lapu-Lapu and his men, whom were experts in the native martial arts of PAKAMUT. Armed with ingenious weapons, such as fire hardened sticks called olisi, kampilan, pinuti, and other impact weapons, they were able to drive out their enemies.

During the Spanish Colonialization of the Philippines, the Martial Art of PAKAMUT was banned by the colonizers because they were fearful of the Filipino?s exceptional skills. Through the years of hidden training, this art is later called Eskrima Arnis Kali.
Title: Kali Means to Scrape
Post by: joewambaugh on September 12, 2006, 03:16:58 PM
There's been even more confussion to the term Kali to mean Scrape.  According to every Tagalog-English dictionary I've looked into,

Kali does mean to Scrape, but specifically it means to Scrape the Scales of Fishes.  Hope that clears it up somewhat. :wink:
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on January 09, 2007, 08:03:04 PM
As Top Dog and I used to say "As the Stick Twirls"

http://sunkete.blogspot.com:80/index.html
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Sun_Helmet on January 10, 2007, 06:49:38 PM
As Top Dog and I used to say "As the Stick Twirls"

http://sunkete.blogspot.com:80/index.html

LOL... the writer is making some easy logical gaps in his reasoning. Last I saw on youtube, Yuli Romo was not brandishing a rapier but a kampilan.

The writer then states the Visayans use a weapon that was similar to a (drumroll).... Moro blade.

"Kapitan Perong brandishing his lampirong (Visayan version of Moro barong blade) would "horse" mount at the tip of the bundled bamboo poles and upon his signal to cut loose the harness would be propelled several feet above the air flying like superman with the trajectory precisely aimed at the incoming paraos (Moro sailboats)."

So the Kapitan was using a similar Moro weapon, but the Moro side does not know how to use it because the Spanish didn't show them how? The Moros knew to forge and design a weapon so well, that the Visayans chose to ignore their subjugator's sword of choice and UNANIMOUSLY decided to use their enemy's sword instead. Interesting.

Why are they still using barongs and kampilans? If it is a rapier why not use a rapier? They are easy to forge as any barong, kris or kampilan.

Add to the fact that I'd like to see a full grown man catapulted into the air and land softly on a sailboat's sails without going over, with panicked occupants on the boat, and carrying a blade THEN killing EVERYONE on board. Maybe Errol Flynn on a huge galleon's sails....

So this obvious MYTH the writer believes?

I suppose in this person's logic bubble, Moros are not Filipinos, and that unless a Cebuano was wielding a blade and counting in Spanish it isn't part of any "Martial Art".

I'd like to have seen this writer tell the Moros of old that they didn't have a martial art.
I doubt they would call them on a cell phone to let them know.

He is also singing the Fighting Friar tune again, even though the examples have already been debunked.

Consider this:

In 1836, William Barret Travis wrote a letter to the "people of Texas and all Americans in the world" from the Alamo describing that the "the garrison
are to be put to the SWORD" by over a thousand Mexicans under General Santa Anna.

Let's look at this description.
Travis uses the term "Sword" to describe the upcoming conflict.
However, at this time, the Mexican army surrounded and overwhelmed the Alamo volunteers with cannon fire and rifles with bayonets.
The Mexicans who were under Spanish rule for many years won their independence and utilized the arms that Spain had left behind.
In addition, the Mexicans bought a large number of British arms to supplement as far back as the 1820's.
From historical evidence, the Mexican infantry man was armed with "the India Pattern musket, a 39 inch barrel of .752-.760 caliber. It weighed nine pounds, eleven ounces and came with a seventeen inch socket bayonet that itself weighed one pound."

The Mexican light infantry men called Cazadores were armed with lighter muskets (Tercerlos), others carried Baker rifles armed with the 23 inch bayonet. Although firing with the bayonet attached proved the rifles useless. "These (bayonets) were very handy for camp chores, but because it added weight to the end of the gun barrel, it was seldom mounted and rarely seen in hand-to-hand combat." The Cazadores were better trained in marksmanship and tactics than the average soldier.

Now consider these facts :
1. By the 1800's, Mexicans who would have had the closest cross training to Spanish methods of war had already transitioned to the rifles.
2. The bayonet on the rifles extended the weapon's length far enough to simulate a short pike. The preferred Spanish weapon of choice.
3. The Mexicans did not storm the Alamo with machetes.
4. The year of transition started in 1820's, during the time these fictional fighting friars were supposedly teaching our "untrained" natives on the Spanish OUTDATED tactics of warfare... the sword.
5. The term "sword" did not literally mean that the tactics were going to be with a sword.
6. At the Alamo, the one man known for his skills with the blade was James Bowie and many accounts state he had several primed pistols at his side, and he had taken ill by the time of the battle so was not directly influential.

Now knowing the nature of Filipinos and a bit about what was happening during these times... doesn't it poke several large holes in the logic that the Spanish friars taught the Filipinos how to use a weapon that not only the Spanish considered an outmoded weapon, but countries Spain subjugated thought so as well?

If we go by the linked writer's logic, The Mexicans would have stormed the Alamo with their Spanish trained rapier skills... except the Mexicans would not use actual rapiers but their indigenous Aztec war clubs. Maybe even use catapults to fly over the walls.

Remember the Alamo indeed.

(note: the reference on the weapons used in the Alamo was appropriated from the TAMU website.)

Title: Re: continued
Post by: Sun_Helmet on January 10, 2007, 07:15:25 PM
5.  The Battle of Mactan was about Magellan's hubris, not superior martial arts.  Magellan and a handful of his men stuck in the mud off Mactan, being butchered by hundreds of Lapu Lapu's men, can hardly be called a battle.  It was a massacre.

I agree with all the above except one detail. Magellan had an equal number of allies right off the shore that he decided not to use. So it was a battle of tactics. Lapu Lapu could have easily sent his men wading out after Magellan and been stranded to get picked off by Humabon's men or the cannons.

At no time did Lapu Lapu know when Humabon would come ashore, nor did he know how the ship's men felt about Magellan (some didn't like him). So credit is given to Lapu Lapu beyond mere numerical superiority. Pigafetta even stated Lapu Lapu's men were in specific formations that reacted well against their firearms.

There were EQUAL numbers there at the site, the Spanish even had superior weapons. Bad tactics created the massacre, the same as good tactics worked for the Spanish in South America.

The fault was mainly tactical. Lapu Lapu did all the right things. He even had men to intercept Magellan's ploy to torch the village.

Sound tactics is Martial Arts.
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 14, 2007, 07:04:48 AM
The following was posted on the Eskrima Digest-- please do not infer an opinion on my part!
===================================

I am very excited to announce that a book called "CEBUANO ESKRIMA: Beyond
the myth" written by Ned R. Nepangue, M.D. and Celestino C. Macachor. Here
is a brief synopsis:

  * Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth boldly unravels with compelling and
    provocative hypothesis on the Hispanic origins of the Filipino
    Martial Arts known as eskrima, arnis and estokada

      * The last vestiges of the extinct European medieval fencing could
        be found indirectly linked to Filipino eskrima

          * The authors present prima facie evidence on the fraud of the
            supposedly precursor art called kali

              * A more plausible theory on the origins of eskrima are
                presented in startling detail from its early beginnings
                as a defense against Moro pirates and slave traders and
                its later fusion with Spanish fencing through the Jesuit
                warrior priests during the pivotal years 1635-1644, the
                height of Spanish rapier fencing in Europe during the
                Renaissance

                  * It also presents a comprehensive chronology on the
                    development of eskrima in Cebu, a meticulous
                    commentary of Cebuano pioneers and innovators of
                    eskrima and elucidates the pre-eminence of Visayans
                    in the art of eskrima / arnis / estokada

                      * As both authors are practitioners of this martial
                        art, technicalities in eskrima never before
                        detailed in other materials on the subject are
                        carefully discussed in the book

                          * Other interesting topics related to eskrima
                            like the esoteric practices and healing
                            modalities are also explained in fascinating
                            detail.

                        If you are interested feel free to email me at
                        decampousa@hotmail.com and will send the details
                        to you. Thank you. Respectfully,Jason AutajayLos
                        Angeles Chapter, United States Eskrima De Campo
                        JDC-IOwww.EskrimaDeCampo.com
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 01, 2007, 06:53:47 AM
Two posts from today's Eskrima Digest:

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: ken jo <kenjo73@yahoo.com>
To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: kali
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

greetings!

I respect the opinions and some of the facts and
stories that Mr. Celestino C. Macachor and Ned
Nepangue M.D. presented in their individual papers
though this does not necessarily mean that I agree
with them..

in mindanao, the land where i was born, where i grew
up and the land that i love, we have friends among the
Muslims and they have informed us that the TAUSUG term
for their bladed weapons is indeed KALIS. (fyi: the
TAUSUGs are the most feared warrior tribe among Muslim
Filipinos - Nur Misuari, ARMM Governor Parouk Hussin
and Basilan Governor Wahab Akbar are some of the
noteworthy Tausug personalities). Most of the Tausugs
are based in Basilan, Sulu and Tawi-tawi.

In the Philippine military/para-military [Armed Forces
of the Philippines, ROTC, CMT/CAT, etc.], the term for
the ceremonial saber or any other bladed weapon/sword
is KALIS.. [Saludo Kalis! (Salute with the
Sword/Saber!)- or words to that effect..]

[[fyi: Placido Yambao wrote Mga Karunungan sa Larung
Arnis in 1957 - first book dedicated to the history
and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA).

According to Bot Jocano (2004): "It is probably this
book that is the source of many of the history
sections of most arnis books available in the market
today. This material is found in the chapter entitled
"Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis" and what was written by
Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book.

Mirafuente states that arnis was first known as KALI
during the early years of the Spanish conquest.

In particular, mention is made of the arrival of
Miguel Lopez de Legazpi in 1564 and how he was greeted
with demonstrations of the art by the local datu or
chieftains and their followers. Legazpi's reaction to
those demonstrations is presented in the following:

Sa gayon ay nawika ni Legazpi sa sarili na "ang KALI
ay hindi lamang larong libangan at pangpalipas ng
panahon kundi isang mabising sining ng pagtanggol sa
sarili sa larangan ng digmaan" (p.10)

(Consequently, Legazpi said to himself "KALI is not
only a game and a measure of passing time but also an
effective art of self-protection in the realm of
warfare".)" ]]

about that book  and its author - the controversial
piece "Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis" (actually an
introduction) was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente,
the editor of the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larung
Arnis" by Placido Yambao published in 1957. This was
the first book dedicated to the history and practice
of the Filipino Martial Arts. You can access it at the
UP Diliman Library..

now as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that
would be the subject of debates - but it would seem
logical to assume that the use of that word has been
in existence long before the publishing of the book -
as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the
making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in
existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++
years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and
technical about it, then the published word KALI is at
least 50 years old this year.

ang matagal ko nang gustong itanong noon pa.. ano po
ba ang istilo ni manong mirafuente at manong yambao
noon at pumayag sila na bigyan pansin ang
terminolohiyang "kali" sa panahong 1957? --

sa japan kasi, 1936 lang naging "official Japanese
term" yung word na karate -- to cite (got this
somewhere):

In 1936, at nearly 70 years of age, Funakoshi Gichin
opened his own training hall. The decision of
Funakoshi Gichin to change the kanji used for writing
the name of the art - "karate" was confirmed at the
so-called "Meeting of the Masters", which included
Chojun Miyagi, Chomo Hanashiro, Kentsu Yabu, Chotoku
Kyan, Genwa Nakasone, Choshin Chibana, Choryo Maeshiro
and Shinpan Shiroma.

Gichin did this to get karate accepted by the Japanese
budo organisation Dai Nippon Butokukai . In a time of
rising Japanese nationalism (Japan was occupying
China), Funakoshi knew that a 'foreign' art would not
be accepted. Thus this body agreed to change the
original kanji which meant "Tang hand" from the
Chinese Tang dynasty or by extension, "Chinese hand" -
reflecting the Chinese influence on the style to the
current way of writing which means "empty hand" -
karate-do - thus meaning "the way of the empty hand."

..anyway just curious if this had an effect on how our
early manongs viewed the word "kali".. peace to all!
================================
From: Pananandta@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:20:16 EDT
To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5
 msgs)
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

I wrote an article on the origin of the word kali in the June 2005 issue of 
Inside Kungfu. In my article I traced the origin of the word kalisin to kali. 
However, James Sy said the word kalisin has nothing to do with the FMA.
 
I would not fault Mr. Sy for not knowing the relationship between the two 
words. Even heads of systems such as Ben Largusa  couldn't explain the  origin
of the word kali. Chris (Sayoc Kali) couldn't explain it either. So  does Kali
Illustrisimo. None among those who use the word kali as part of  their
system's name could explain the word kali. They had at best theories that  does not
do anything but wing an explanation.
 
I did some research on the origin of Tagalog words - about 15 years at the 
big public library in Manhattan (NY). I pored through Sanskrit and Indian 
dictionaries to find which among the Tagalog words that I knew originated  from
Sanskrit. I found quite a few. (Indeed, a book was written on Tagalog and 
Sanskrit words back in 1898.)
 
Perhaps, it would help if I explain the relations between kalisin (meaning 
to scrape) and the word/fighting art kali.
 
Mr. Sy did a direct Tagalog to English translation. A direct translation is 
usually off the mark because something is lost in between. In his case, Mr. Sy
 couldn't see the relationship. Here is the relationship.
 
When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to remove (scrape) layers  of
defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. This  should be
explanation enough.
 
Mr. Sy mentioned a few names of teachers in his email.
 
I was a former professor and board reviewer in Chemical Engineering at 
Adamson University in Manila from 1963 to 1973. Tagalog is my dialect. I speak 
both literary and contemporary Tagalog.
 
Best regards to all EDer's
 
APMarinas Sr.
 
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 02, 2007, 05:06:37 AM
Another post from the ED:

Tue, 1 May 2007 23:29:59 -0400
From: bgdebuque <bgdebuque@gmail.com>
To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

I think you are on the right track.

It appears that the ancient martial art from South India of Kalaripayattu
have spawned several martial arts-based performing arts, all of which have
"kali" affixed to it - KOLKALI, VELAKALI, THACHOLIKALI and KATHAKALI.

KOLKALI is particularly interesting.  According to Wikipedia:  "The dance
performers move in a circle, striking small sticks and keeping rhythm with
special steps. The circle expands and contracts as the dance progress."

Kalaripayattu is now highly-suspected as the possible origin of Shaolin Kung
Fu.  It would not be highly remote that it could also be the origin of the
FMA.  If that is really the case, the use of "Kali" to refer to the FMA
would not be without basis at all.


Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Sun_Helmet on May 07, 2007, 11:55:05 AM
The oldest recorded term for the Filipino's "fighting style" was...

"kampilan"

Antonio Pigafetta used other words in his glossary to describe other blades, but the only word he isolated to describe a fighting style was "kampilan". Many know kampilan is a type of blade, and so is a kalis, but it is also right there in the Magellan documents as the native's fighting style. That's 1500's which supercedes the mid 1800's "arnes".

So if all the FMA academics want to debate over the oldest recorded written term that specifically describes Filipino tribal methods of fighting, "kampilan" beats "arnis" and "kali" by three hundred years.

If their convictions are so intent in going back to the OLDEST recorded FMA term, then forget "arnis, eskrima and kali" use Kampilan.
Is Kampilan the Mother art?

As for Manong Marinas recollection of Tuhon Sayoc's definition of the ORIGIN of the term kali, please note that Tuhon Sayoc only started using the word "Kali" in the early 80's to differentiate the edged weapons from the stick curriculum found in the Sayoc Fighting System, now called Sayoc Kali - Silak. Sayoc Kali does not ascribe to the "Mother Art" explanation. As Manong Marinas was Tuhon Chris' elder and considered one of the FMA masters who also taught at the Sayoc household - he would defer to Manong Marinas' recollection at that time.

As for the Indian link, one just has to observe the movements of the Indian practitioners to note there is as much influence of India as there is to Spanish and Chinese movements in FMA.

--Rafael--

Sayoc Kali
Title: Cebuano Eskrima by Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor
Post by: joewambaugh on September 12, 2007, 01:24:06 PM
Has anyone read this book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth?
It is suppose to be a continuation of this very thread.
There are some pages available on http://books.google.com/
I wanted to hear from anyone who has read it before buying it on Amazon.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oBqVWDJCL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Interesting discussion of the etymology of "Kali"
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 11, 2011, 10:22:19 AM


http://www.fmapulse.com/content/fma-corner-etymology-basis-usage-term-kali
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
Post by: Crafty_Dog on January 22, 2012, 07:01:53 PM
Someone was asking me about this so TTT.
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Crafty_Dog on October 25, 2013, 10:58:34 AM
This came up on our FB page so TTT.
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Crafty_Dog on June 23, 2014, 02:39:05 PM
ttt
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Dog Robertlk808 on June 23, 2014, 07:03:44 PM
Some good reading in this thread!
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Crafty_Dog on December 04, 2014, 08:24:29 AM
This subject has come up on a FB thread and so as to facilitate finding the thread for readers from there coming over here, TTT.
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Crafty_Dog on January 24, 2015, 08:41:16 PM


I've no reason to suspect trickery here, but only you are responsible for you, but apparently one can download the Yambao book here!

http://fmahistoryredux.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-first-written-account-of-kali-as.html?spref=fb
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Crafty_Dog on March 23, 2015, 03:09:49 AM
http://warriorartsalliance.com/what-is-kali/
Title: Yambao
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 19, 2016, 10:51:38 AM
http://mandirigma.org/?p=2588
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 18, 2017, 01:17:32 PM
ttt
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Crafty_Dog on May 30, 2018, 07:48:02 AM
From a Filipino FMA FB page:

Toby Genato:  From a historian friend, so far the oldest written document in reference to the art was written in a wood bark paper, carbon dates 1480s, Pre-Magellan.

Written in Baybayin: “Para syang ullo, nagkakali-kali mag-isa?” (Or something to that effect)
=======================
Roland Isla
Roland Isla Translation please.
Manage
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====================
· Reply · 13h
Novus Gladius
Novus Gladius Roland Isla “He seems crazy, doing Kali all by himself. “

, , , ,

================
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
How do we know the "kali" mentioned means the martial art? It could mean digging with a stick as in some Philippine languages today.
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· Reply · 8h
Tim Tamaraw Rivera
Tim Tamaraw Rivera Toby Genato, ask your historian friend for details on the find. I'd be very interested in tracking it down.
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· Reply · 8h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Toby Genato did you ask your historian friend about the earliest reference to the word "kali" (with no definition) or the word "kali" meaning a fighting art? Exactly what you asked may lead to different answers. It could be that what your friend gave you doesn't refer to a fighting art at all
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· Reply · 8h
Toby Genato
Toby Genato Its not kali perse its kali-kali. Kalis, Kali-Kali are the terms used describing the the art. That itself for me brings relevance to this finding. I thought we all agreed from an old thread hear that there are bo direct liniage to Kali ang the Older FMA?

We were talking about the art. He is also very good with baybayin and i trust his translation. He has a vast collection of pre world war 2 blades some of which are 80-100 years or older. Why does he know? Because he carbon-dated each in his collection which 80% came from overseas. The text i belive he saw from one of his sources for the blades. These guys are serious collectors. Rumor has it he’s planning to showacase some of the peices at the Ayala Museum...if it ever pushes through. He is also a fellow KDL practitioner. And yes, that particular peice of parchment is not in pur country but in a private collection.
Manage
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· Reply · 7h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Toby Genato, "kalis" as a fighting art is a relatively new meaning I think. it just originally meant sword as far as I know. As for kali-kali, I am not aware that it is accepted among historians/researchers that it has a prehispanic or even pre-1957 definition of being a fighting art. To me the writing could mean, "he's crazy digging with a stick all by himself". Did I miss the boat on something?
Manage
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· Reply · 7h · Edited
Toby Genato
Toby Genato The reference was into fighting arts. There was no mention of stick as well. Even in the Panay region as far as i know kali-kali is what they refer to in terms of fighting arts. Escrima came later.
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· Reply · 7h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Hmm... if this was common knowledge, I think it would've resolved the kali debate a long time ago. Felipe P. Jocano Jr., were you aware of this?
1
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· Reply · 7h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Toby Genato, this is what makes me reluctant. In Philippine languages repeating a word does not usually change meaning. Sayaw and sayaw-sayaw pretty much mean the same thing.

http://www.binisaya.com/cebuano/kali

Felipe P. Jocano Jr. have to look into this. this is new to me.
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· Reply · 7h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Toby Genato, pretty much the same meaning in hiligaynon, the language of the ilonggos (iloilo, negros occidental). I guess in tagalog kali-kali would be hukay-hukay.

https://hiligaynon.pinoydictionary.com/word/kali/
Manage
Hiligaynon Dictionary - Meaning of káli
hiligaynon.pinoydictionary.com
1
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· Reply · 6h · Edited
Raymundo Valdez Lucero
Raymundo Valdez Lucero Torqui, in Ilokano, kali also means, to stab.
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· Reply · 5h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Raymundo Valdez Lucero, and what would kali-kali mean in Ilokano?
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· Reply · 4h
Raymundo Valdez Lucero
Raymundo Valdez Lucero Stab-stab. Hahahha
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· Reply · 4h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Raymundo Valdez Lucero, haha! I figured as much.
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· Reply · 4h
Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla
Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla Torqui Dojillo In Waray-Waray, kali would be similar, a ditch dug out.
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· Reply · 2h
Tim Tamaraw Rivera
Tim Tamaraw Rivera "Kalis" as a fighting art is mentioned in 17th century dictionaries.
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· Reply · 2h
Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla
Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla Torqui Dojillo "gather root crops by digging" would be related to the Tagalog kalkal, like digging in to search.
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· Reply · 2h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla Aah! So! It never occured to me.
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· Reply · 1h · Edited
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Tim Tamaraw Rivera, wasn't it kalis to mean sword that was mentioned in the 17th century?
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· Reply · 1h · Edited
Tim Tamaraw Rivera
Tim Tamaraw Rivera Torqui Dojillo both sword and fighting with a sword (esgrimiendo)
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· Reply · 1h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Tim Tamaraw Rivera, reference please.
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· Reply · 1h
Tim Tamaraw Rivera
Tim Tamaraw Rivera Buenaventura, vocabulario de la lengua tagala, 1613, I believe. I can dig it up later if that's not the one.
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· Reply · 1h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Tim Tamaraw Rivera, please do. That would be most interesting.
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· Reply · 1h
Felipe P. Jocano Jr.
Felipe P. Jocano Jr. Tim Tamaraw Rivera Fray San Buenaventura?
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· Reply · 1h
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
A Tausug friend tells me "nagkakali-kali" means to dig around in their language.

Title: Bong Abenir
Post by: Crafty_Dog on January 16, 2019, 10:45:28 PM
ABOUT THE FILIPINO FIGHTING ARTS
By Bong Abenir, AKS

Are Martial Arts which have its origins in the Philippines. The practitioners of these arts emphasize the use of blunt, projectile, hand to hand and bladed weapons. Projectile weapons may refer to spears, bow and arrow, blow guns and knives. Today some have already included the use of firearms which I see as a necessary addition to our skills in order to keep up with the modern times and adapt ourselves to address possible scenarios which involves these types of weapons.

Arnis de mano is the term commonly used to refer to the Filipino Martial Art. It is a corruption of the Spanish word “Arnes” that refers to the various means by which armor was strapped on. The term arnis as I've observed is more likely the preferred name in most Tagalog regions like here in Manila and laguna. Now I may be wrong so please don't quote me on this.

Escrima is also from the Spanish word “Esgrima” which means “Fencing”, it is a sword fighting art through which the older masters of the blade-based Filipino Martial Art prefer to call it. The word eskrima is often used among the Visayan regions like Cebu.

Kali is another term used to refer to the Filipino Martial Art which probably has its origins (according to some) to the term “Pagkali-kali” in describing the locked talon-jousts of eagles in mid-air. Others have given their explanations as to the origin of the term. A master who I inquired about it said that KALI for him means "Karunungang Lihim" wherein the first two letters (KA and LI) of the words were joined together referring to the art. He says that karunungang lihim which translated in english would mean secret knowledge. A term which borders around the area of mysticism for it was said that masters of this art are also known to be healers as well. Although this sounds silly to many modern day thinkers but some (especially elders) believe that there were eskrimadors who were known to posses uncanny abilities through the use of their oracions and anting-anting. That is as far as I would go about this. Moving on, this term however is not familiar to most of the Filipino Masters here in the Philippines. But is now gaining acceptance as a legitimate name for FMA as well. The term Kali is more widely used in foreign countries especially in the US.

Kalis is a term which means sword in Tagalog. “Kalis is also a term preferred by the late Master Antonio Diego. He said that the term is more appropriate for Antonio Ilustrisimo’s art due to its blade based orientation. This is also the word I used for our system which of course I got from mang Tony's influence. He reitirated this to me many times until I decided to use the word instead of the former name which was Abenir Kali. So from then on we were known as Abenir Kalis.

I would wish to post this info as well which was shared by my friend Karl Medina:

I come from Central Luzon in a province with predominantly Tagalog speakers. I would, on occasion hear older people say "kalisin mo na lang yan" which I hear them say when ordering someone to use a blade to whittle, carve, or trim any object that can be affected by a blade, be it wood, animal or human hair, or even fins and scales of fish. I am no language expert, but if I have to translate "kalisin" according to my elders' usage, i would say that it is a verb in the future tense which means to process an object using a blade. And by blade it could mean all sorts of blades, big and small; from the humble labaha (razor "la navaja" in Spanish) to the versatile gulok.

As a verb:

Future tense: Kalisin
Present tense: Kinakalis
Past tense: Kinalis
Root word: Kalis

As a noun:

Kalis: a blade.

I hope this helps.

Note: I don't find anything wrong with others using the word Kali. It was my act of obedience to my late teacher's request which prompted me to do so. He was very generous to allow me to go on my own path since he knew of my heavy influence in Silat which I naturally would express in many of my movements especially when it comes to shorter blades and empty hands. So this was my way of showing respect and deep gratitude towards him.

All these (Arnis, Eskrima, Escrima, Kali, Kalis) are now interchangeable terms which describe blade, stick and empty hand way of the Filipino Martial Art or FMA.

Interchangeable, meaning (like in my case) that I could use any of these to refer to my system. And we could call or refer to ourselves or any Fma practioner as Arnisadors, Eskrimadors or Kalista, bastoneros.......No contradiction and nothing wrong with that. Whatever their emphasis is. Wether they're known more with the use of sticks while others are more into swords are in general under the same concept. Mainly, that the weapons are merely an extension of the arms. Now if others still make a big issue out if it by constantly bashing others just by minor things such as this then that's their problem.

History of Arnis

Nobody really knows the true origin of Arnis (But we Filipinos know more about the legend of "Si malakas at si maganda, Ang alamat ng saging" and other similar stories! since there were no written treatises about the art before the twentieth century. And this is probably due to the fact that most of the written documents our ancestors had were burned by the Spaniards. It was outlawed by their officials who led to underground practice of the art. Some of its masters and practitioners were reduced to doing roles as fight choreographers and actors on theatrical performances during Moro-Moro stage plays which depicts combat between Christians and non-Christians.

Although for sure we had a martial art which was being used by our ancestors in order to protect each other either from other tribes or warring clans and from foreign invaders. That is why we have the story between the fight from the army of Magellan and the legendary Lapu-Lapu and his warriors. Nobody knows exactly what kind of martial arts they were using or if they even had a name for it……but it’s quite clear that they knew how to fight well. As of the moment the only clear and reliable documentation ever done pertaining this battle which happened in 1521 is through the writings of Antonio Pigafetta. Magellan's chronicler.

However there were references to the art by the likes of Jose Rizal when he studied Arnis as a young lad and even included it on his school curriculum when he built one during his exile in Dapitan. We also have other well known historical figures such as Juan and Antonio Luna and Marcelo H. del Pilar who were known to have studied and practiced the art. An epic called Florante at Laura by Balagtas also mentions the term Arnis as a form of martial art.

Today we have seen the Filipino Martial Art featured on both local and international films such as Kamagong, Mano-Mano, Bourne Sequels, Mission Impossible 3, and the Hunted. There are also a lot of instructional videos and numerous reading materials found in the internet and books written about it. It has now become one of the most in-demand and popular Martial Art in the United States and Europe. Thanks to the likes of Dan Inosanto, Antonio Diego, Mark Wiley, The Dog Brothers, Leo Gaje, Edgar Sulite, Christopher Ricketts and others who had popularized the art by exposing it to the public thru seminars, instructional videos, magazines and books.

Although histories or rather stories by some of its masters and practitioners are often made up or not always trustworthy since most of their claims regarding the origin of their art are often shrouded in mysteries such as masters who dreamt of being taught by enchanted spirits, and others who traveled many treacherous mountains and learned their skills either through a beautiful blind princess or a hermit. Either these were just metaphors or actually believed to be true is up to us to interpret (I am dying to hear stories of those who learned Arnis from a very ugly princess without arms and legs or those who dreamt of learning from an enchanted frog…..What can I say?
Thanks to authors like Mark Wiley who have made a thorough investigation of the history of the Filipino Martial Art that we have now a scholarly study of the subject. His book “Filipino Martial Culture” is a good reading material. We also have other good sources which come from Filipino authors like Rey Galang and Edgar Sulite.

Forms of Arnis, Escrima and Kali/s

Solo Baston or single stick is a form which an arnisador uses a stick measuring about twenty to thirty inches long, with a diameter of an inch. The free hand is used for parrying, striking and snatching the weapon from the enemy.

Doble Baston is using two sticks with equal length and is wielded with skill. Another term for the movements used for wielding two sticks is called sinawali. Movements requires hands that are well coordinated which if done properly is very beautiful to watch. It is also lethal in fight application. Espada/punta y daga is elegant very elegant in form. It uses a sword and a dagger to simultaneously cut, thrust, parry and spill off attacks and relies more on circular footworks, body defense positions and precision of its attack while holding these defensive postures. It is said that it got some of its influence from Spanish sword play using similar weapons.

Kutsilyo or Baraw is the form of using a knife in which the skills used by the Filipinos in wielding this weapon is highly regarded as very practical and functional. It also employs the handling of two knives.

Mano-Mano and Dumog is the empty hand form which employs the use of punches, elbows, knees, kicks and grappling skills (If you're picturing BJJ or Judo then its not like that. Actually it's more on eye gouge, groin, arm and hair pull, biting even and whatever. It's just plainly used to survive streetfights) Many do not know that this particular phase of Arnis, Escrima and Kali/s is included in the curriculum. Thinking that the art is purely weapons oriented, but the truth is that it is a complete fighting system where empty hand and weapons training are emphasized to become a well-rounded martial artist.

There are also fighting systems which is indigenous in the Philippines that use also sticks or bladed weapons such as Sikaran, Yaw-Yan, Dumog (Yaw-Yan Kampila led by Maestro Rennie Ross has combined elements of Filipino grappling arts into in their training method) and others but are more focused on empty hand combat. These arts like Yaw-Yan are perfect translation of arnis into empty hands. I know this because this was my very first formal martial art training back in the late 80's under Coach Orlando lapuz. Formal meaning that I learned systematically inside a training facilty. Hand techniques were derived from stick fighting. But the kicks are equally beautiful and devastating. Filipino Fighting Arts is indeed a pragmatic martial art system. It is A system which still find its way relevant on the streets as a means of self defense. Most importantly, it is part of our rich Filipino heritage, culture and tradition.


Abenir Kalis System Bolo and Knife Fighting DVDs by Cranes Production are available through this link:
https://videos.cranesproduction.com/shop/148880

email: abenirbong@yahoo.com
Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Crafty_Dog on March 04, 2019, 04:31:55 PM
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Title: Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
Post by: Crafty_Dog on April 24, 2019, 02:36:43 PM
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Title: The Etymology of the term "Kali"
Post by: Crafty_Dog on July 22, 2019, 11:24:28 AM


http://fmapulse.com/fma-corner/fma-corner-etymology-basis-usage-term-kali/?fbclid=IwAR0QWlXy1Mn3I-Nedm9aRDfdjtGsPsKoabSgIMIZXd6TUcdektxBfyS5yqw